This transcript was automatically generated and might contain errors.

[0:00] Jesse McAnally: Okay, you ready?

[0:01] Ahem!

[0:02] I used to think my life was a tragedy, but now I realize it's a cheese!

[0:09] Alright, that's one.

[0:10] That was awful.

[0:11] That was really bad.

[0:12] Let's see the next one.

[0:13] Next.

[0:14] I'm not a monster. I'm just ahead of the cheese.

[0:17] Not bad. I like that one. That one's pretty good.

[0:20] That's better.

[0:21] You managed to find a way to win, and everybody still loses, Cheese.

[0:26] Did you just add cheese to the end of a quote?

[0:29] Nuh-uh. Nuh-uh. You can't prove it.

[0:31] I literally can.

[0:32] I can Google the quote.

[0:34] I...

[0:36] See, see, see.

[0:38] I don't want to do, like, why so serious, because that's lame.

[0:42] What if it's, like, why so cheesiest?

[0:44] Oh, why so cheesy, or something.

[0:47] Um, what about...

[0:48] Tell me something, my friend.

[0:50] Have you ever cheesed with the devil in the pale moonlight?

[0:53] See, that's a good one.

[0:53] That's good!

[1:00] Um, hello, I'm Jesse McAnally.

[1:03] And I'm Andrew DeWolfe.

[1:05] And I'm Liz Esten.

[1:06] And welcome to the Cheese Wheel, a hyperfixation podcast where our topics are gambled on a big ol' wheel.

[1:11] And this week, it was one of my choices!

[1:14] Um, so, long story short, we were thinking of covering Jokey Fo- Jokey...

[1:21] Joker Follyadoo.

[1:22] Jokey Follyadoo!

[1:25] More like Jokey Follyadoodoo, because that movie blows!

[1:29] Oh, man.

[1:30] I bet you were the first one to make that joke.

[1:33] I bet you anything.

[1:34] I mean, it's only so bad.

[1:36] Um, but I decided to give it a watch, you know, just to see if it was worth talking about.

[1:41] It is a musical with tieback to our musicals with cheese roots.

[1:44] And that movie is just such a nothing.

[1:46] Like, I hate saying it, but nothing of interest happens.

[1:49] Like, Joker 2019.

[1:51] Stuff happens.

[1:52] It's a tense, uncomfortable movie.

[1:54] And it's, like, it's really nasty, and I don't like that movie, but it is doing something effectively.

[2:00] Um, but Joker Follyadoo?

[2:03] Nothing.

[2:04] So, I decided I was gonna change out that choice for a Joker adaptation that made me feel something.

[2:11] And truly made me think a lot about it after it was done.

[2:15] And of course, I'm talking about Vera Drew's incredible film, The People's Joker.

[2:20] When I look back on my life, before going jokeman to harlequin, so to speak, I wasn't even sure I existed.

[2:28] It's like blurry, cracked mosaic of all these gender revelations.

[2:32] You mean she's a he?

[2:35] Um, I'm trans.

[2:37] Uh, uh, well, I'm sorry.

[2:39] Well, I'm not sorry.

[2:41] I was fairly certain I was in love, and I was so afraid of that feeling going away.

[2:46] Ah, but you should be afraid.

[2:50] I just want my happy little boy back.

[2:52] I just don't feel like a boy.

[2:53] Fear not.

[2:55] Boy, I've developed an experimental treatment.

[2:58] You'll be mama's happy little boy.

[3:01] Also comes in rainbow for pride.

[3:06] It was foretold that someday a clown would rise.

[3:10] Sounds pretentious.

[3:11] It is, whatever you say, Mr. J.

[3:14] Hunka hunka.

[3:15] Now you must journey inside yourself.

[3:18] I'm not a hero, and I'm not a villain either.

[3:22] So who are you?

[3:25] I'm a woman of my word.

[3:32] Oh, I thought clowns were supposed to be funny.

[3:40] The People's Joker was written by Vera Drew and Brie LaRose and directed by Vera Drew, based on characters from the Batman comics and films.

[3:49] According to Drew, so originally this was supposed to premiere at the Toronto International Film Festival in their midnight screenings.

[3:55] It was supposed to be this weird kind of mixed media premiere.

[4:01] But, according to Drew, a media conglomerate sent her an angry letter, misreported as a cease and desist, pressuring not to screen the film shortly before the film's premiere, like the day of the premiere.

[4:13] Some people assumed it was Warner Bros. Discovery, the parent company of DC, but no one has ever confirmed that.

[4:19] A day after the film had premiered at the Toronto Film Festival, subsequent screenings of the film were cancelled.

[4:24] The website for the festival stated the filmmaker has withdrawn the film due to rights issues,

[4:30] and the film attempted to receive copyright exemption under fair use, being a parody,

[4:35] and a title card displaying basically like, hey, fair use.

[4:39] But that was not allowed.

[4:41] In a statement to Variety, Drew said,

[4:51] On September 21st, Drew also pulled the film from all the other festivals,

[4:55] so it did not get anything until they found a distribution deal,

[4:59] where the first American showing occurred in 2023, so a year later,

[5:04] at the Outfest Film Festival in Los Angeles,

[5:08] and it was released theatrically in the U.S. in April of 2024,

[5:11] which is when I eventually saw this, and I will go into why I did that later.

[5:16] But on the review aggregator Rotten Tomatoes,

[5:18] it has a 95% of 73 critics' reviews are positive with an average rating of 7.5 out of 10.

[5:25] The consensus reads,

[5:26] The People's Joker uses classic characters in impressively inventive ways, working within familiar framework to tell an invigorating story of self-acceptance.

[5:35] The plot of The People's Joker is,

[5:49] Alright, what were you expecting?

[5:52] Like, did either of you hear about this film before we watched it today?

[5:56] No, I honestly, until I started watching this, I thought we were still covering Joker 2,

[6:01] and then I turned this on, and I'm like,

[6:03] Dang, did he find the wrong movie?

[6:09] Man, they really went strange in the sequel.

[6:12] Just a sweet fucking Joker 2 over here.

[6:16] Just made his own Joker 2.

[6:18] Well, that's actually funny, because that's kind of how this film came to be.

[6:22] This all came to be because Brie LaRose, in 2019, said,

[6:25] I will not be watching Todd Phillips' Joker unless Vera Drew re-edits it.

[6:32] And Vera Drew, who is the director of this,

[6:34] was known for doing Tim and Eric and Eric Andre-style,

[6:38] everything is terrible, editing contents.

[6:40] Known for very strange, very surrealist editing and goofball stuff.

[6:46] So, their pitch on their editing project, commissioned by Brie LaRose,

[6:52] was, let's just take Todd Phillips' Joker,

[6:55] and make it a found footage thing,

[6:57] and we can deepfake some of the scenes that we want to add,

[7:01] with, like, my face, with, like, you know, Joaquin Phoenix's face.

[7:05] Which I think would have been incredible in its own way.

[7:09] And then they, like most people who take on weird, big projects,

[7:13] they actually started to care about it.

[7:15] And it became something bigger and something more emotional.

[7:18] And they said, well, if we're playing with these characters,

[7:20] like, let's actually go full tilt.

[7:23] And then the pandemic happened.

[7:25] So, during the pandemic, they shot this in five days,

[7:29] in a bubble, in October of 2020.

[7:32] So, it's kind of amazing that this film exists in that framework.

[7:37] And, literally, they did not have a completed script,

[7:40] it was like 75% done.

[7:42] The entire narration was basically improvised,

[7:45] and thrown together.

[7:47] And then for the next four years,

[7:50] cutting it and making it what it is today.

[7:52] And I think that's a miracle, truly.

[7:55] And shows what media can be nowadays.

[7:58] You know what this reminds me of a little bit?

[8:01] This is like if a YouTuber made an actually good movie.

[8:05] A lot of folks have made to Vera Drew's face,

[8:09] both in positive and negative comparisons,

[8:11] Channel Awesome comparisons.

[8:13] Donatello, one of the Ninja Turtles, writes,

[8:17] Bruh, this movie looks like a Nostalgia Critic video.

[8:20] Why is everyone freaking out over it?

[8:23] I've never seen anything from Nostalgia Critic.

[8:25] I've never watched Channel Awesome.

[8:27] And it keeps coming up in reviews quite often,

[8:30] both in a positive way and in a negative way.

[8:33] In both hurt.

[8:35] If anything, I was really kind of ripping off the aesthetic

[8:38] that we kind of made at Absolutely Productions,

[8:41] you know, at Tim and Eric and stuff.

[8:43] And I think that's maybe what Channel Awesome was borrowing it from.

[8:48] The good news is none of you can hurt me.

[8:50] I am a cold, empty person.

[8:53] So many people have called this film genius.

[8:55] So many people have compared me to a cinematic Prometheus

[8:58] that I literally have democratized filmmaking

[9:01] by making a film with this IP.

[9:04] So I've personally reached an event horizon with reviews.

[9:08] Good reviews, I feel nothing.

[9:10] Bad reviews, I feel even less.

[9:12] Well, it has segments that look like they're drawn

[9:17] like the Nostalgia Critic draws characters in.

[9:20] And I don't mean this in a negative way.

[9:22] It's charming.

[9:24] It's more intentional rather than incompetent.

[9:27] It definitely feels like a YouTuber movie,

[9:32] but in a way where it's like if a YouTuber decided

[9:35] I'm going to make an arthouse movie,

[9:38] and then they made this.

[9:40] You know?

[9:42] I don't know how else to describe it.

[9:45] They got some decent stars in here

[9:48] from the anti-comedy world, though.

[9:51] We got David Liebhardt.

[9:53] We've got Tim Heidecker.

[9:56] We've got Bob Odenkirk showing up.

[9:59] We've got Maria Bamford as Lorne Michaels.

[10:02] It's wacky that this film came out in a year

[10:06] where there is a Lorne Michaels passion project

[10:09] making him look like a god on Saturday night

[10:12] and a Joker sequel.

[10:14] Making him look like an evil person.

[10:16] Lorne Michaels being the main villain is kind of incredible.

[10:20] It's actually great, though, because it's...

[10:23] So this movie is clearly very, very personal.

[10:28] I don't really know how to approach it,

[10:31] but from the comedy angle, it's fun as an anti-comedy

[10:35] versus corporate SNL-style comedy.

[10:39] They are literally in combat with each other.

[10:42] It's very interesting.

[10:45] Honestly, in my attempts to try to unpack this film,

[10:50] I've listened to a lot of interviews with Vera Drew.

[10:53] She is a very passionate,

[10:56] but also very angry, under the surface,

[11:00] quietly angry person about the state of comedy.

[11:04] And they love comedy,

[11:06] and they love the people and figures in the comedy world.

[11:09] But she hates everything in it that you have to do to exist.

[11:14] Specifically, the main issue I can tell that she has

[11:18] with Lorne Michaels as a figure in our world,

[11:21] not in their Batman world,

[11:23] is that SNL hides a lot of problematic people

[11:27] and influences political, like, norm-core politics

[11:32] in ways that influence greater beliefs.

[11:36] And in this, she says all that stuff

[11:39] under the surface and using Batman characters.

[11:42] SNL, for a long time, has been a very, like,

[11:46] neoliberal, leaning neoconservative, almost,

[11:51] with very little room for any sort of outside agitation from that.

[11:56] And, I mean, famously, they allowed Donald J.,

[12:00] who may or may not be our president right now,

[12:02] I guess we'll see.

[12:03] We'll find out when this comes out!

[12:06] They allowed him on their show,

[12:08] and he gained a bunch of popularity for it, I think twice?

[12:11] Didn't they get him on twice?

[12:12] No, he just hosted the one time.

[12:14] 2016 was so long ago.

[12:17] If somehow we're still living in that year,

[12:19] I don't understand it.

[12:20] Yeah, I don't like it.

[12:22] You know, December 2015 is the last time

[12:24] I truly felt happiness.

[12:26] Honestly? Yeah.

[12:28] Somehow 2016 has never ended.

[12:31] We're trapped. We're trapped.

[12:33] They're still seeing the same memes of the crying liberal person.

[12:40] I guess back to the People's Joker,

[12:42] which is also very angry at the political situation

[12:46] and very kind of...

[12:48] I love what it does with these characters.

[12:52] Let's unpack the world of the People's Joker, please.

[12:57] I don't think describe the plot,

[12:59] because the plot...

[13:00] I'll describe it in one second.

[13:02] We have, basically, Vera Drew as the Joker Harlequin,

[13:07] who discovers they're trans, comes out,

[13:10] joins an anti-comedy group,

[13:12] the Jared Leto Joker, who is a trans man,

[13:16] and Mr. J, who is an emotionally abusive monster

[13:22] in, like, an honest-to-God realistic way.

[13:25] And I did not realize until I was watching this

[13:28] that I had never seen a truly nuanced performance

[13:32] of a trans man being a bad person.

[13:35] Like, and it's showing queer people...

[13:38] Andrew: Be messy and uncomfortable and do things that aren't just like, you know, cis people's interpretation of what the angel from Rent is a cis man's interpretation of trans people. It's also just like an actually interesting interpretation of Joker, because like, what is Joker about? Joker is basically about a normal white man that becomes crazy because society makes him big sad, right? Basically, yeah. That's not interesting, really, at all. And we have like a thousand movies about that. Like, this is just like, what, Falling Down or like, I don't even know. There's like a million movies. Taxi Driver, like, we need some movies. Like, Joker is like a, you know, anarchic figure, you know? Like, should be better than that.

Should be more interesting than that. And I love so much of what, OK, like, Smilex, like the drug that makes you smile, antidepressant drugs thrown at a depressed child to make their mother happy. Like, just the little things. And I think through the metaphor of comic book narrative, these things mean more and they hit harder. And it's there's stuff there for the weird nerds who like it, because, I mean, I'm a big, like, Scarecrow fan. And Jonathan Crane is the dude that is given out. He gives her the Smilex at the beginning. And the Scarecrow, as a theme, comes back and is haunting her the entire movie. So, like, it's you got stuff like that. You got like Penguin. You've got the you got the I'm your number one guy.

Bob the Goon. Bob the Goon. Hell yeah. They also they reference versions of the characters, too, because Mr. J is the damaged tattoo forehead. Jared Leto Joker. Yeah. Like, you can see the damage really faint on the actor's forehead. Joker the Harlequin is more of the Heath Ledger Joker style mixed with a little bit of Margot Robbie Harley Quinn. It makes a little bit of animated series, Harley Quinn, which all Harley Quinns are. And of course, you have like Bob the Goon shows up, who is only from as far as I'm aware, only exists in the '89 Batman. Yes. You have the Penguin from the probably the Tim Burton, like Danny DeVito, Batman Returns. They reference the Val Kilmer Batman. Yeah. They say, like, he's played by Val Kilmer or something.

Like, it's a biopic of Batman. Val Kilmer's playing me. The portrayal of Scarecrow is kind of unique, though. I don't think that is even referencing really anything. That's a that's like a fully original. Describe it. He's he's like a he's got like a big beard and he's kind of he kind of reminds me from the Batman video games. There's a character named Doctor. Oh, my God. What the fuck is his name? Is it Hugo Strange? It might be Hugo Strange. It might be Hugo Strange. He kind of reminds me of that, but obviously it's not Hugo Strange. It's it's a it's Scarecrow. So it's it's interesting. And then you have Raja Ghul portrayed by David Lieberhardt, who is maybe maybe one of the best parts of the movie, because what the fuck is David Lieberhardt doing here?

I mean, I get it, but I you know, it's weird. David Lieberhardt is like one of Vera Drew's mentors. They describe them as like their comedy grandfather. And see, David Lieberhardt is an interesting figure because I don't understand who he is. You know, David Lieberhardt, I thought in this might actually be a fake backstory that I bought into that. I thought he ran like a Christian public access TV show and Tim Heidecker and Eric Wareheim found him. But honestly, that I'm thinking that might actually be a fake backstory that they made up. I don't actually know the wildest stuff about that. Vera Drew came out as trans to David Lieberhardt like that. They are very close with them. And like in interviews, it's like, yeah, yeah, I really respected him.

He's hard to work around. He needs a lot of naps. He's a little older. And also he's the weirdest guy I've ever met. He was a hundred percent abducted by aliens. He sings he has like songs about the aliens. Oh my God. He is. He is weird, but apparently very accepting. He's like, if you want to see David Lieberhardt say trans rights, it's in this movie. I love it so, so much. I. OK, can I tell you something funny about this movie? And it goes to show even more about Lorne Michaels than you'd probably expect. Maria Bamford was not the original person playing Lorne Michaels. In fact, another actor portrayed Lorne Michaels at the Toronto International Film Festival premiere and asked to be removed and replaced with a different actor.

Really? Who is it? It was Sarah Squirm, a.k.a. Sarah Sherman, who was then put on SNL. Oh, they didn't want to be involved with that. Oh, my God. Which I think just brings that whole tent of the hatred for the SNLification of comedy. This is saying so much to what it means to be an outsider that honestly, it means more than any Batman movie. And we're talking about it like it's fully like goofy and that, but it's kind of not like there's a lot of goofy stuff, but it's a very earnest as well. Like it's clearly written from a really personal place. And that's why I honestly find it like I don't know how to even touch the subjects of some of the things it brings up without we've kind of tiptoed around making a fool of myself.

I don't want to make a fool of myself. Three individuals talking about this. And this is a very much trans story. It is about but it's also done through the way of transness also becoming the Joker. When you become trans, you also become the Joker. I mean, there's there's not that's not 100 percent because there are jokers in the movie that are not trans. So this reminds me a lot of in a different tone. This is this. This reminds me a lot of I saw the TV glow. This is I saw the TV glow, but funnier and just as impactful, but in a different way. So being a Joker in the context of the people's Joker is less about being evil and causing chaos and shit like that. If you spend your entire life being dead named by your mom and treated like shit and being forced to take drugs to not be sad.

And as a depressed child, I felt that because I didn't want to tell my mom I was sad all the time because she would worry. So, you know, I felt that it's like it's my Lexus just the antidepressants. And then once you get away from your parents and you pick your name, you figure out your life like I'm only speaking this because like I've I've known a lot of I've friends with a lot of people in the queer community. So like I've heard people out my best friends non-binary talked a lot about like gender shit with them. Like and then you go on your own figure out your life and then you become a Joker when you become your authentic self. So that's what becoming a Joker is in the people's Joker. It's not like becoming a chaos demon who wants to take on Lord Michaels.

It's becoming your true powerful self and tackling what you want to do. So I think that's brilliantly summarized. I'm going to come out with my on the top of that because I agree with everything worded you said. I think that this does this more effectively than I saw the TV glow. I think it does it just as effectively but in a different way. I think I the people's Joker is more taking the angle of we're going to laugh through our sadness, which a lot of people do when you're queer and depressed. But I saw the TV glow is more I'm depressed and I can't figure out how to make this funny and I'm just going to be sad for a while. And that's what a lot of people's experiences generally are. It's like I cannot find a community to get me to laugh through this.

So I'm going to I have to sit in it, which is a lot of people's experience. So I think they approach it differently, but it's effective in each individual way. Also, I go watch. I saw the TV glow. It's incredible. Don't don't don't go into it expecting the people's Joker, though. It's a slow burn, guys. It's slow as fuck, but it's worth every minute. Go see it. I have different thoughts. Just go see it. I I don't even know what make your own opinion, kids. I find it interesting. So Vera Drew said made one of my favorite comparisons of a movie ever when directing Lynn Downey, who plays their character's mother in the film where Lynn Downey is like, am I an abusive mother? Like what? What am I supposed to play?

And the comparison Vera Drew gave was play it like Piper Laurie as Auntie Em in Return to Oz. OK, we're like, incredible. Yeah, that's a pole. But as soon as I heard it, I see it where it's like Auntie Em is not being abusive to Dorothy. Dorothy is just saying these things that she can't comprehend. And the only option she can seem to find is electroshock therapy. And in it, we're not supposed to see Auntie Em as this horrible, abusive woman torturing her adopted child. But at the end of the day, that is what's happening. And I feel that that is a very dynamic way to play what could have very easily been a shrewish mom character, like a more Hedwig and the Angry Inch, which I feel also is nuanced, it's just not in that specific way.

The mom's definitely portrayed nuanced. I mean, she even eventually comes around and tries to understand, but is just incapable of doing so effectively. She understands part of it. But the the the answer has changed now. It's like, I accept that you're gay, but it's not. I accept that you're trans. I'm still going to call you your dead name, which gets bleeped, by the way, for most of the movie. Beautiful choice. I think all the movie does. No, it eventually gets told. Mr. J says it and Mr. J says and that's breaks the bleep cycle. And then we hear it all the time. So many things like even me just describing that scene, hearing about that scene just gave me chills because it is and we're talking about a Tim and Eric style Batman parody.

Yeah, they're like basically on green screens the whole time. They are on green screens the whole time, as far as I can tell. It's a Tim and Eric in the style of Nostalgia Critic. But it's like makes me feel something like the end scene of this movie, which I don't want to spoil, truly like felt came at me like a gut punch where it just kind of tied everything so well together. And when I started this, you were just deeply touched by Lorne Michaels falling down the stairs with his pants falling off, then getting eaten by a giant plant. Yes. That's he was crying. He was in tears, crying tears of sadness. Lorne Michaels, no. No, not Lorne Michaels. My favorite movie is Saturday Night. Gabriel LeBeau.

No, I was talking about the scene with their mother. Oh, at the very end? The very end. Oh, the very, very end. Okay, I got you. Not not the Lorne Michaels subplot, no. I got to ruminate on the fact that Andrew just said that. How about we go for this break and I think about this a little bit more. Think about Lorne Michaels ass.

[25:40] Andrew: Hey guys, sorry to interrupt you in the middle of the show, but we've got to chill at you. Today's show is brought to you by extremely kind donations by our donors over at Patreon. Andrew, tell us a little bit about Patreon and who is supporting us over there. Man, you can go to Patreon and support us financially and also get some extra content. We recently did commentary tracks on both the Halloween towns. We're probably going to do some stuff with the Christmas coming up. We're going to do some Christmas commentaries, I'm sure. And then you also just get access to our show that we do live. You can watch it as we record it as well as get it a day early, fully edited. And you can even request to have things put onto the wheel and vote on what we cover occasionally.

I think it's once every five episodes or so. Our current patrons are Layton Ackles, Jessa Stampede, Ewan Cassidy, Monica Theroux, Brent Black, Daniel Stacey Coombe, Mary Lou Choquette, John Van Alls, Russ Walker, Musical Hell, Emily Gracie, Janae C, Nothing is Certain Except Beth and Taxes, Thespian, Chai Teacup, Chris Marcotte, Keisha Marie Anastasio, RJ Noriega, Sebastian Canino, Joe, Bjorn Hermans, Toriana Frazier, Sammy the Adequate amount Jacobson, Kaylee Blazier, TheOmegaGeek, Maddie Wargill, Eliza Erdman, Evan Balls, Zachary Torres, Rora Marasso, Mara, PossessedWashingMachine, Nick Roten, PuffyBoy, Sydney Hicks, GoldplatedKikimora, Aria Ardy, Emma, Kara Balda, JRL Studios, Alexandra Dom, Fiberty Jigot,

[27:15] Andrew: Which I think they're just trying to get us to say something funny, I think.

[27:19] Jess: Fliberty Jigget, Sarah, and Ashley O'Neil, which if you want your name read and you want us to say something funny, you can also torture us with difficult names. You can change your Patreon name to something funny. Yeah, we're not going to say any slurs, obviously, but that's...

[27:35] Andrew: Why would you want that anyways? You don't want that. Yeah, why would you want them to do that?

[27:38] Jess: I never read the Patreon list, so why would you want them to do that?

[27:42] Andrew: That would be the one time we make Liz do it.

[27:45] Jess: The only time I do it is when there's a bad word.

[27:48] Andrew: Someone does the C word, so I have to read it.

[27:51] Jess: Let's get back to the show!

[28:04] Andrew: All right, guys, I've had enough time to think about it. You know what my answer is? It's time for the Letterboxd Gay PREVIEWS!

[28:11] Jess: Is that our new PREVIEWS transition? Because I think we need to work shifts.

[28:14] Andrew: It's time for PREVIEWS! PREVIEWS! PREVIEWS!

[28:19] Jess: It's time for PREVIEWS!

[28:21] Andrew: In case this is your first episode, this is where I pulled real-life Letterboxd reviews, and Andrew and Liz have to go head-to-head and guess whether they're a one-star or five-star based on nothing but the review alone. All right, are you guys ready?

[28:31] Jess: It's going to be very chaotic because it's going to be mostly gay people, so...

[28:34] Andrew: You never know. Could be comic book fans.

[28:37] Jess: All right, Andrew, you're first.

[28:39] Andrew: All right, let's do it.

[28:40] Jess: It insists upon itself.

[28:42] Andrew: What do you mean by that?

[28:44] Jess: I don't know. I think it's referencing Family Guy.

[28:48] Andrew: It is referencing Family Guy. Isn't that when he says that he doesn't like...

[28:52] Jess: The Godfather.

[28:53] Andrew: Yeah.

[28:54] Jess: Just like you.

[28:55] Andrew: Which means that it's got to be a one, right?

[28:57] Jess: Because they're referencing when he says he doesn't like it.

[28:59] Andrew: We're saying one. I'm going one.

[29:01] Jess: That is incorrect. Liz!

[29:03] Liz: What the fuck, dude?

[29:09] Andrew: What the fuck?

[29:10] Liz: It's five stars.

[29:12] Jess: That is correct! Andrew.

[29:14] Andrew: Yeah?

[29:15] Jess: No, dot dot dot. There was no Melvin, Brother of the Joker.

[29:18] Andrew: Yeah! Yeah! We got it. We got it.

[29:23] Jess: Dude, why is that sketch so hated? I don't understand.

[29:26] Andrew: Why does everyone hate Melvin, Melvin, Brother of the Joker?

[29:26] Jess: Melvin, Melvin, Brother of the Joker.

[29:30] Andrew: I remember.

[29:31] Jess: I remember the day that sketch came out.

[29:37] Andrew: Do you really?

[29:38] Jess: I do. I don't remember thinking like, oh, that's fine.

[29:41] Andrew: I didn't even think it was the worst thing he's ever done.

[29:44] Jess: Genuinely, I've watched it and I also was like, wait, why does everyone hate this so...

[29:48] Andrew: Like, it's not funny, but it's not the worst thing he's ever done.

[29:53] Jess: I feel like he's made worse content.

[29:55] Andrew: Like, the things that Doug Walker memes about himself and is like,

[30:01] Jess: are not even the worst things he's done.

[30:03] Andrew: Like, it's that, the Bart's Nightmare review, and the Bolt Wall review.

[30:07] Jess: And I don't even think those three things are the worst things he's made.

[30:10] Andrew: Melvin, Melvin, Brother of the Joker.

[30:12] Jess: Melvin, Brother of the Joker is bad. It's just bad.

[30:15] Andrew: It's...

[30:16] Jess: What's so bad about it?

[30:17] Andrew: What's bad?

[30:17] Jess: It's just bad.

[30:18] Andrew: Like, just explain it though.

[30:21] Jess: Like, why is it so bad?

[30:22] Andrew: It's Doug Walker bad. The joke is nothing.

[30:25] Jess: Yes, but at the time, we have to...

[30:28] Andrew: You didn't fall out of a coconut tree.

[30:30] Jess: You have to put things...

[30:31] Andrew: It insists upon itself.

[30:37] Jess: I just read a high class review of Melvin, Brother of the Joker.

[30:40] Andrew: It's like, this film...

[30:43] Jess: Is that on Letterboxd?

[30:44] Andrew: Melvin, Brother of the Joker?

[30:46] Jess: Melvin, Melvin, Brother of the Joker.

[30:48] Andrew: Anyway, moving on.

[30:49] Jess: Melvin, Melvin.

[30:50] Andrew: No, I refuse.

[30:51] Jess: Um, all right.

[30:52] Andrew: Um, what was your choice for that?

[30:55] Jess: Um, five.

[30:57] Andrew: That was a one.

[30:58] Jess: Liz.

[31:00] Liz: Yes.

[31:01] Jess: Channel Awesome's to boldly flee, but made for and by people who spend too much time tweeting and not enough time showering.

[31:08] Liz: One.

[31:09] Jess: That is correct, but I had to throw it in there, didn't I?

[31:12] Liz: Yeah.

[31:13] Jess: Just because they referenced Nostalgia Critic.

[31:15] Liz: Although I can guarantee that the person that wrote that probably doesn't shower either.

[31:20] Andrew: 100%.

[31:21] Jess: Andrew.

[31:22] Andrew: If the DC universe was like this movie, I'd be way more interested in it.

[31:26] Liz: Yeah, it's true.

[31:27] Andrew: I would be.

[31:28] Jess: That's gotta be a five.

[31:30] Andrew: That is correct.

[31:30] Liz: Thank goodness.

[31:32] Jess: Somebody liked it.

[31:34] Andrew: My conservative father gave it half a star, but I loved it.

[31:38] Liz: So your conservative father gave it half a star, but you enjoyed it.

[31:42] Andrew: One.

[31:43] Jess: That is correct, but I was baffled by that one.

[31:46] Andrew: That one hurt me.

[31:47] Jess: Andrew.

[31:47] Andrew: Yes.

[31:48] Jess: This has got to be one of the worst films I've ever seen in my life. If I wanted to know the plight of white libs, I'd use Reddit. Please stop watching your shitty YouTube essays and throw away your Funko Pops, please.

[31:59] Andrew: Ah, we love it when the fashies show up.

[32:03] Jess: Um, yeah. We're gonna say that's gotta be a...

[32:03] Andrew: That's gotta be a one.

[32:09] Jess: That is correct.

[32:09] Liz: Yes.

[32:11] Jess: Lorne Michaels has a lot to answer for.

[32:14] Andrew: I mean, he does.

[32:16] Jess: He literally said, I regret firing Shane Gillis.

[32:19] Andrew: I mean, that was another thing Vera Drew brought up, which is like, they fired Shane Gillis, and then two years later, they invite him to host the fucking show.

[32:26] Jess: And it was not a good episode. I watched, like, two minutes of it. It was bad.

[32:31] Andrew: Anyway, uh, five for hatred.

[32:36] Jess: Nope, that was one for hatred. Andrew, you can tie this up here.

[32:39] Andrew: Oh, I can? Really?

[32:40] Jess: She only has, what, two?

[32:41] Andrew: She has three, so this would bring...

[32:43] Jess: Yeah, you got two right.

[32:44] Andrew: Oh shit, I did. Okay, okay.

[32:46] Jess: With musical guest, Sinead O'Connor!

[32:50] Andrew: Five.

[32:52] Jess: That is a one, Andrew.

[32:53] Andrew: And sadly, Liz has won this game.

[32:55] Liz: Dude, what the fuck?

[32:57] Andrew: Jesus Christ, that's unguessable.

[32:59] Liz: Jesus fucking Christ.

[33:02] Jess: It's a quote from the movie.

[33:04] Andrew: I know! That should be a five!

[33:15] Jess: Is this the best comic book adaptation of the Batman? Like, as far as the Batman movies go, I think this and Lego Batman are probably the closest to what I envisioned the Batman universe being.

[33:34] Andrew: I don't know if it's the best as far as accuracy goes.

[33:37] Jess: Not accuracy. There's a quality?

[33:38] Andrew: Quality as a film.

[33:41] Jess: Here's the thing about Batman as you prefer it. There's, like, 800 types of Batman. There's, like, funny Adam West Batman. There's dark, serious Batman. There's dark, serious Batman 2.0, 3.0, 4.0. There's a lot of dark, serious Batman.

[33:56] Andrew: But there's, like, so much type, so many types of Batman that you can't really, like, pick a perfect adaptation because there's too many Batman!

[34:05] Jess: Here's what I'll say. This is the best multiverse Batman that's ever existed.

[34:10] Andrew: Because the only other one's the Flash?

[34:13] Jess: Yes.

[34:14] Andrew: It is better than the Flash.

[34:17] Jess: I don't know, like, we're really discounting, like, the Nolan Batman and the 89 Batmans here if we're saying this is better.

[34:28] Andrew: Even the Adam West movie Batman, it's kind of a really good version of the Silver Age of, like, weird bullshit. I think that it's a good and a fun version of Batman, but I don't know if I can be like, this is the best one.

[34:42] Jess: Okay, here's my argument. Liz, you brought up the fact that everyone has their own taste of Batman, and Andrew, you bring up the fact that there's just been a lot of good Batman else. This merges them all together and gives love. It's like a love letter to every part of this character, from comics to animated to the good movies to the bad movies. It's all represented here. It is truly a love letter to anyone. If you like Batman in any way, you are represented in this movie.

[35:12] Andrew: Well, unless you like Batman.

[35:14] Jess: Then you don't like this movie.

[35:15] Andrew: Because Batman as a character in this is-

[35:16] Jess: Batman is a fascist.

[35:18] Andrew: Yes, but that is an interesting take and not-

[35:21] Jess: I mean-

[35:22] Andrew: A lot of stuff supports that in the comics.

[35:26] Jess: If you like the Nolan Batmans, you might like this then, because he's basically that in the Nolan ones. Even the fucking Zack Snyder Batman, he's also evil in that, so.

[35:36] Andrew: Did I ever tell on podcast?

[35:39] Jess: I don't think I did.

[35:40] Andrew: I'm going to have to humble myself here. In the year of our Lord, 2016.

[35:46] Jess: Yes.

[35:46] Andrew: When only the Suicide Squad trailer existed.

[35:50] Jess: No, it was 2015, the year-

[35:52] Andrew: The last year I felt happiness. And only the Suicide Squad trailer existed.

[35:58] Jess: My girlfriend really wanted to do a couple's costume as Harley Quinn and the Joker.

[36:03] Andrew: And I love my girlfriend a lot, so I dressed as Jared Leto Joker.

[36:07] Jess: The movie had not come out yet. All that existed was the trailer.

[36:10] Andrew: So there are many photos of me dressed as Jared Leto Joker.

[36:14] Jess: A full-ass year before the Joker movie came out.

[36:19] Andrew: Book.

[36:20] Jess: Where are they?

[36:20] Andrew: Yes, they are.

[36:21] Jess: Okay, I'm going to look for them.

[36:24] Andrew: Do you have the damaged tattoo?

[36:26] Jess: Yes, I do.

[36:27] Andrew: It was written on-

[36:28] Jess: Oh, that's beautiful.

[36:29] Andrew: Oh my god, I'm looking.

[36:31] Jess: Who wrote it for you?

[36:33] Andrew: You did not do that yourself, there's no way.

[36:34] Jess: No, it's very hard.

[36:35] Andrew: It would be very hard.

[36:36] Jess: I think my partner put it on me.

[36:39] Andrew: But remember, in context, the movie had not come out yet. We did not know.

[36:43] Jess: That first trailer looked good.

[36:45] Andrew: Did it though?

[36:47] Jess: I will argue that first trailer is really good.

[36:51] Andrew: I think you guys need to revisit that trailer again.

[36:54] Jess: Well, it didn't make me want to watch the movie because I didn't watch the movie.

[36:58] Andrew: Okay, let's put it-

[37:00] Jess: It didn't just fall out of a coconut tree, for lack of a better analogy.

[37:04] Andrew: What the fuck are you talking about?

[37:05] Jess: Stop mentioning a coconut tree!

[37:07] Andrew: You know, it was a different time for comic book movies and it looked like an interesting take.

[37:11] Jess: And it turned out to be the worst film ever made.

[37:14] Andrew: All right, do I have to-

[37:15] Jess: It's a pretty good trailer though.

[37:16] Andrew: I mean, the whole movie as a trailer for a different movie, it would be pretty good, right?

[37:19] Jess: Well, the thing about that trailer is that trailer was so well regarded that they hired the trailer house that cut that trailer to edit the rest of the movie.

[37:28] Andrew: Which is why that movie is bad.

[37:28] Jess: Yes, yes it is.

[37:30] Andrew: That's why the movie is actually, it's in fact a trailer for a better movie.

[37:34] Jess: Yes, it is. You are 100% correct and I have no arguments on anything that you have just said there, Andrew.

[37:39] Andrew: Yeah, a two-hour trailer for a different movie.

[37:43] Jess: I was doing an L.A. program in college and I had to apply for internships and the company that recut Suicide Squad was, I looked them up to see if they had offered internships because I was totally going to go for it.

[37:54] Andrew: They only offered them in the spring and I was going in the fall and I was so fucking mad.

[37:58] Jess: I like, I want to talk to them about Suicide Squad.

[38:02] Andrew: Everybody who worked on that was fired, sorry.

[38:04] Jess: Oh yeah.

[38:05] Andrew: Do we want to see the one photo I was able to find of me as Jared Leto Joker?

[38:09] Jess: I think I removed it from Facebook out of love for myself.

[38:12] Andrew: Damn it!

[38:13] Jess: But I do have found it in my personal connection.

[38:16] Andrew: Come on, Mr. J.

[38:17] Jess: Oh my god!

[38:18] Andrew: Oh my god!

[38:19] Jess: Yes!

[38:20] Andrew: Yes!

[38:21] Jess: This is incredible.

[38:23] Andrew: This is like, it's good lore.

[38:27] Jess: Who's behind you?

[38:27] Andrew: Who's the guy behind you?

[38:30] Jess: He was another guy that dressed as a Joker at that party we went to.

[38:33] Andrew: Was it, this was in college?

[38:35] Jess: Yes.

[38:36] Andrew: Okay.

[38:37] Jess: So that was what that was.

[38:39] Andrew: I'll never get over how terrible.

[38:40] Jess: I'll never get over this.

[38:41] Andrew: This is the worst day of my life.

[38:43] Jess: The Joker design that they went with with Jared Leto is so unbelievably bad.

[38:47] Andrew: It's just, I can't get over it.

[38:48] Jess: Okay, it could have worked with any other actor and if they actually did something with it.

[38:54] Andrew: The design is so bad.

[38:56] Jess: It's distracting.

[38:58] Andrew: Okay, I don't disagree.

[38:59] Jess: But I think like watching that design on Mr. J in the People's Joker, it works.

[39:06] Andrew: It feels right for that character.

[39:08] Jess: Now, if that would have worked sight unseen, I don't know. But it works in this movie with that design and it is either helped or aided by that design.

[39:17] Andrew: Yeah, yeah, because that Joker is pretty douchey. So it kind of makes sense to make the emotionally abusive Joker the Jared Leto Joker.

[39:23] Jess: And Vera Drew specifically said, that's my revenge for Dallas Buyers Club.

[39:27] Andrew: I fucking love that. Can we talk about my favorite character for a sec though? Because we haven't mentioned him.

[39:32] Jess: The Penguin is incredible in this.

[39:35] Andrew: Who plays the Penguin?

[39:36] Jess: That guy does a great job.

[39:38] Andrew: That is Vera Drew's very good friend. Like one of the emotional people that were just kind of always talked about.

[39:46] Jess: I believe it's Nathan Faustin.

[39:49] Andrew: Nathan Faustin.

[39:50] Jess: Yes, he was actually born in Michigan.

[39:53] Andrew: Hey, good for you, Nathan.

[39:57] Jess: He looks like a Michigander.

[39:59] Andrew: So he heard about this and he's like, what am I going to do in this? What am I going to do? Play Alfred or something? They're like, no, the Penguin.

[40:07] Andrew: And it was just like when they went to TIFF, he was there the entire time.

[40:12] Jess: So he is a deeply emotional connection to Vera Drew.

[40:16] Andrew: And he's basically playing himself and his representation in Vera Drew's life.

[40:22] Jess: Which is why I think the Penguin is so effective there.

[40:25] Andrew: And I find it ironic because right now there's a Penguin TV show airing.

[40:30] Jess: That's not really even about the Penguin.

[40:31] Andrew: It's just me being horny for Kristen Milioti for every episode.

[40:37] Jess: And this is a far more compelling interpretation of the Penguin character.

[40:41] Andrew: Like the Penguin and the Joker, the Harley Quinn Joker, like their relationship is so good.

[40:49] Jess: It's like one of the best parts of the movie. I love his portrayal too.

[40:53] Andrew: The Joker. Not The Joker, The Penguin. Pardon me, just misspoke there. Incredible. Like a proper emotional performance while still being a comedy performance. You can do both in this movie and neither feel like it's overtaking the other. It's incredible. I think it's the voice. Somehow acts really well while still doing this weird nasally like... That might be because of the prosthetic he's wearing. Theoretically. I wish everyone could see this movie, because I feel like I'm insane for talking about it the way I have. And also, I need to give credit because I haven't done this yet. The reason why I know about this film is due to our collective friend Brianna Jones, our former producer of this podcast.

She just texted me out of the blue like, have you heard of The People's Joker? I want to see this movie! And I was like, what the fuck are you talking about? And then I eventually looked it up and watched it and oh my god, it has changed my life. And none of us are trans, but we feel represented and identified and really connecting with this story. The sad story comedy act that Joker the Harlequin performs is incredible. I love just telling the sad story and laughing as loud as you possibly can during it. It's great. Yeah. I'm also a depressed bitch that loves to cope through jokes, so you know. And it's sad that we currently have two Joker movies that can't even do what this film does with a quarter of the budget, five days of shooting, and a half-written script.

[42:27] Jess: Yeah, but Joker 1 is basically if a guy named Chad at your film school watched Taxi Driver really high while staring at a picture of Batman, was like, what if I combine those and make it an awesome movie? And that's Joker!

[42:43] Andrew: I agree. In fact, Vera Drew herself said, my film is to the Batman lore as to what Todd Phillips' Joker is to Taxi Driver.

[42:51] Jess: Yeah. Like, if I'm getting cease and desist, he should have gotten cease and desist.

[42:56] Andrew: Yeah, it's a glorified Taxi Driver remake. Just watch Taxi Driver. But here's the last question before we wrap this up. Would we even care about this if it hadn't been shut down from TIFF? Would this just be a weird mixed media movie that played at TIFF in the midnight thing, if it hadn't been shut down by WB? When I say Escape from Tomorrow, which is also on my list to put on the wheel, does it ring any bells to you guys?

[43:19] Jess: No. Please don't. Please don't.

[43:21] Andrew: Are we talking about Escape from Tomorrowland, or?

[43:24] Jess: Nope. I mean, kind of, but yes. It's a guerrilla movie made by a guy at Disneyland.

[43:31] Andrew: Yeah, I know what this is.

[43:33] Jess: It's really fucking weird.

[43:34] Andrew: Yes. But they were marketing that on, oh, Disney's going to shut us down. And you know what Disney did? Said, we'll look really dumb if we do anything about this, so just let it do its thing. And Vera Drew specifically states, that's what we thought people were just going to do with us. And the fact that DC and Warner Brothers came out and shut down the screening basically got us all the attention that we never could have dreamed of. And all the eyes are on us. We got our distribution deal. And they're releasing this film on DVD, Blu-ray, and VHS, which is fucking wacky. I would love to see what this looks like on VHS, pan and scan and all that. Do we think this would have had the attention? Because no one's talking about Escape from Tomorrow anymore. And I feel like people are going to be talking about this film for years.

[44:20] Jess: This movie, it's like, there's a certain subsect of film Twitter circles now, which are mostly just talking about the substance these days. But you know, a Lady Gaga song came out that works really well with the substance edits, so we're just deeper into the substance lore. But in terms of this, I've been hearing about this for years. Like, when it was in production, when it was the Kickstarter, when it was at the film festival, when it was getting a release. It's been in and out of discussion for a while. And I think that a thing like this, where we sit on a podcast and talk about it, it just helps it along. I mean, we're not the biggest show, but still, people are going to seek it out if you hear people talk about it. So it's really, this whole thing is just a lesson is tell people about a weird little movie you saw, and it will keep spreading. That's why Barb and Star got big online.

[45:07] Andrew: I think it just has enough star power that we probably would have heard about it anyways. Because I mean, David Lieberhardt is in it, and there's like, there's a pretty sizable timid crowd.

[45:16] Jess: I didn't know who David Lieberhardt is before this movie.

[45:17] Andrew: I was about to say, Andrew, most of these people are just big to you because you're a big alt-comedy guy.

[45:21] Jess: Yeah, but there's a big alt-comedy, there's a big alt-comedy crowd that would seek this out anyways.

[45:26] Andrew: I mean, who's going to see Just Sunset Alone, the editor of, I think you should leave in a bunch of other things, feature debut without like, with like a minor role for Bob Odenkirk, who requested to have a weird scar so no one would recognize me as Bob Odenkirk, specific request in the specific way. You know, like, it's not designed to be found by folks like that. If it didn't have, you know, Batman.

[45:52] Jess: Yeah, if this wasn't a Batman movie, it'd just be a real little movie people talked about and be like, what is that? Moving on.

[45:58] Andrew: It would be, it's an everything is terrible kind of thing.

[46:01] Jess: Yeah.

[46:02] Andrew: Which I love, but are they still taken down or are they back up?

[46:06] Jess: They're back up, but all their, some of their old stuff is still gone.

[46:09] Andrew: That's lame. Speaking of lame, what is our overall thoughts on The People's Joker and our cheese ratings? Andrew, you're up first.

[46:17] Andrew: So I think this is pretty good. I don't think it's for, I don't think it's necessarily for everyone because, I mean, it does have this kind of alt comedy, uh, internet, like, movie kind of vibe to it. I think most of that is probably because of the mixed media and the fact that most of it's green screen or all of it is green screen. It's, uh, it's

[46:37] Andrew: Sort of unclear. Um, but that being said, I think there's, it's a pretty heavy, uh, movie that covers, uh, some really personal stuff that clearly has a lot of passion put into it. Um, and if you like weird interpretations of Batman, I think you're going to really like this because it's just got a lot of Batman references. Um, so I, I think it's good. I think it's good, but I don't think it's for everyone. And, uh, I think you probably would know if it's for you in the first five minutes. Yeah. Just first five minutes, watch the trailer or something like that. You're going to know if it's for you or not. I honestly think the trailer misrepresents the film. Like, I think that I haven't seen the trailer. So it makes it look a much more garish and much more difficult to watch than the movie actually is. Um, for a cheese rating, I'm actually going to do a joke this time. Um, okay. Do you know why Swiss cheese has holes? No. Why? Well, I don't either. I'm wholly unaware.

[47:35] Jess: Andrew, you should, you should do standup.

[47:35] Andrew: Thank you. That was really good. I would be very good at standup. Uh, I, this, uh, I, this is, it's really, this is like a weird case. It's like a really good comedy, but also like really, it really tackles. I mean, if you've listened to the waitress episode and you heard me crying, you know, the emotionally emotional abuse stuff kind of hits me harder than these two. So, uh, it's really well done. At least from my perspective. Um, I think it's like, feels realistic in a way. Like there's a line in the movie. It's like, why didn't the movie tell me that the evil bad guy who would hurt me looked like why didn't look like a normal person and not an evil large man that's going to attack me. If I knew that I wouldn't have dated this guy.

Like we had to portray emotional abusers as normal people because that's the reality of it. It's not the big scary guy in the alley. It's your friend. So I think they handled that real well, but the Batman stuff's good. Like the comedy is good. I think it's really heartfelt. I think if you're a trans person or you're like another queer, a queer person, you should definitely check this out. Like also support queer filmmakers in general.

[48:51] Andrew: I don't like no matter your identity support queer independent filmmakers, they get the least amount of money than all the, they get very small amount of money. So support them, give them, give them attention, get them more opportunities from bigger people to give them more money. Uh, yeah, go see this. It's a lot of, it's a good time. It's very hard to watch in summer. It's hard to watch emotionally. It like hits you and it's might not be for you. It's weird. I'm kind of weird. So I like weird shit, but, uh, watch the trailer. Maybe watch like the first couple of minutes, watch a clip on YouTube. Just be prepared for what it is. It could have been the amazing bulk, but it's way better. So, uh, you know, and my cheese rating is also kind of a joke. Um, I'm going to give this the Batman animated series episode rats like cheese, which is the eighth episode of its first season.

[49:40] Jess: I'm assuming it's rat man he's up against.

[49:42] Andrew: Oh no. That's a conclusion of the story that began at instant freeze, which I don't know what the villain, Oh, Mr. Freeze. Yes.

[49:50] Jess: Well, alrighty.

[49:51] Andrew: Um, so I picked this movie because I felt deeply compelled by it in a way that I, I thought it stands the test of time and might be the one of the better comic book adaptations, um, in a very long time, like, and it's doing something interesting.

[50:05] ⚠ About 4 minutes of audio could not be automatically transcribed.