This transcript was automatically generated and might contain errors.

[0:00] Jesse McAnally: Hello, I'm Jesse McAnally, and I'm Andrew DeWolf. And welcome to Musicals with Cheese, a podcast where I try to get Andrew to like musical theater. He he, Shimon. Just get up there and perform. Look at look at me. Look at me while you're singing.

[0:27] Andrew DeWolf: Baby, baby. Do it up. Bobby, uh, oh, uh, he up and up. That's it. We're going on tour. The Jesse five. The Jesse.

[0:42] Jesse McAnally: Um, man, isn't it suck that Michael Jackson had an abusive father and came from rags to riches and became something. And that's all he ever did.

[0:55] Andrew DeWolf: Well, that's not true. He also solved the Crips blood feud in L.A. and he saved a monkey this week. We are covering the twenty twenty six film Michael, directed by Antoine Fuqua.

[1:11] Jesse McAnally: You are Michael. They told him, don't you ever come around here? Don't want to see your face. You better disappear. The fires in their eyes and their words are really clear. So it's cooking, baby. Sounded good. You better run. You better do it. You can't. Don't want to see the blood. Don't be a macho man. You want to be tough. Better do a job. Can't. So it better be. You want to be bad.

[1:39] Jesse McAnally: So Michael is a film directed by Antoine Fuqua, written by John Logan, the writer of Sweeney Todd, the Tim Burton film Alien Covenant and your favorite film Rango. He also did the show Penny Dreadful, which I liked quite a bit. It is based on the life and career of Michael Jackson, covering his childhood with the Jackson five in the 50s through the Bad World Tour in the late 1980s. And nothing has ever happened to Michael Jackson after that.

[2:10] Andrew DeWolf: Never. No, it just simply. Well, actually, the movie acknowledges that some things may happen after that because his story does continue. Michael Jackson will return in Avengers Infinity War.

[2:26] Jesse McAnally: Yeah, Thanos, I need you to put down the glove. Why don't we all just get along? The film was originally scheduled for October 3rd, 2025, but was delayed to April of 2026 due to ridiculous reasons. The film was released in the United States on April 24th, 2026. It grossed one point zero to one billion dollars worldwide, making it the highest grossing biographical film of all time and the first biopic to reach one billion dollars, as well as the highest grossing Lionsgate film and third highest grossing film of 2026.

[2:59] Jesse McAnally: As of this recording on Rotten Tomatoes, the film received generally negative reviews from critics who praised Jafar Jackson's performance, but criticized the story as sanitized. The film follows the early life of Michael Jackson from his childhood, performing with the Jackson five and Gary Indiana through the recording of the Off the Wall and Triumph Tour to the Bad World Tour in the late 1980s. The film ends in 1988, more than 20 years before Jackson's death in 2009 after the third act was completely reworked at the last minute.

[3:29] Andrew DeWolf: Did this feel like a movie that didn't have a third act?

[3:32] Jesse McAnally: It felt like a movie that didn't have much going on around the ending at all. You know, so I mean, I suppose, yeah, that would be that that would be the answer there. Do you OK? I've peeked at the original screenplay. I've been following the production of this. The original way this film opened was the raid on Neverland Ranch for the first child molestation case.

[3:57] Andrew DeWolf: Puffy Boy says as their review of it, I've seen less glazing at a Krispy Kreme donut.

[4:05] Jesse McAnally: Hard, hard to disagree with that. And then we flash back from that moment to basically the story. And then we end there. And that's kind of where the movie ended was the third act of that court case. However, halfway through filming, not even halfway through production wrapped, the Jackson estate discovered a clause in a legal settlement of one of Jackson's accusers that barred the depiction or mention of him in any film or television project. The estate had overlooked this clause during production and sees scenes addressing the 1993 sexual abuse allegations, which made up much of the third act had already been shot and had to be scrapped completely.

[4:49] Andrew DeWolf: Oopsie daisy. Therefore, the film had to go undergo 22 days of reshoots in June of 2025 to shape the third act into a third act. Just barely.

[5:00] Jesse McAnally: Yeah, they kind of just decided that they would just make Michael Jackson concert. But yeah, but they would also like Joe Jackson would be the villain and the resolution would be ditching him, I guess, even though that kind of happens earlier. But like, I guess it happens a second time. I don't know. Yes. I mean, that at least sounds like a movie, you know?

[5:17] Andrew DeWolf: Yeah. Yeah. It's just maybe a movie that should have been about something else. Like it should have been about the earlier part. And him actually firing him should have been the ending. Now, when Michael Jackson died, I watched a two part miniseries. So I think it was about five, six hours altogether called Jackson's The American Dream. And it's all about the Jackson five leading up to the same Pepsi commercial moment for Michael Jackson. But it's about everyone in the Jackson five.

[5:47] Jesse McAnally: Joe Jackson is the protagonist and he's still an abusive monster. But he has like depth and interest in the mom is more than just like a person that like sits idly by and watches him beat her kids. But then afterwards, we'll go, no, you can't do that anymore. OK, like and it's not just he only beats them. Like he also made them carry cinder blocks back and forth like like normal, like everyday things. And they showed the good side and the bad side and all that. And it was much more interesting because it felt like a real family where every performer had a little thing here.

[6:26] Andrew DeWolf: The Jackson five are just guys that are like, yeah, yeah, great job, Michael. The entire time the yeah, the brother characters do not exist. It's like they apparently had no impact on Michael's life whatsoever outside of just, I guess, honestly, if I'm being real, they feel like an anchor. Like the Jackson five is like a prison that he's trapped in and the movie ends when he escapes the Jackson five. And it's like, geez, how do the how would the brothers feel about this? Aren't some of the brothers still alive?

[6:59] Jesse McAnally: Yeah. And they are producers of this movie. Like Jafar Jackson is Michael Jackson's nephew who plays Michael in this.

[7:07] Andrew DeWolf: OK, so I mean, I guess they're fine with the depiction of no depiction of themselves. Well, I guess the thing is, the way you keep making money is make Michael Jackson look like the coolest guy that ever lived and maybe the second coming of Christ. And the way you lose money is admit that he probably did stuff to children. At the very least, even talk about it. Now, do you remember Miles Teller being in this movie?

[7:30] Jesse McAnally: It's easy to forget he's there.

[7:32] Andrew DeWolf: He is distracting when he first appears because he looks really weird.

[7:36] Jesse McAnally: Yes, he does. I don't I don't understand why they chose to have him look like that, but it's not a hairstyle he should have. He is his name is John Branca. He was Michael Jackson's attorney for a good chunk of his life. He's also one of the producers of this movie. Like just throw on that out there. He is portrayed in a very positive light. I'm sure he would have been involved a bit more in the, you know, the court case if that happened. But really, he kind of disappears off the map. He started working with Michael Jackson in 1985, and then he stopped working with him until 2003, really.

[8:20] Andrew DeWolf: Oh, no. Hold on. He worked with Michael Jackson till 2003. Then he fired him, basically suggesting he might have stole funds.

[8:28] Jesse McAnally: Yeah. And then suddenly, right before Michael Jackson died, he rehired him again, and then he got a lot of power from that. And now he's making a movie that's partially a propaganda piece that makes him look really good.

[8:43] Andrew DeWolf: Yes. And he gets to be played by whatever big movie star he wants, no matter how kind of depressing the role is for any working actor. Good fucking Lord. Now, the scene where where where they first have pick him as the lawyer, where Michael's like, everyone else leave. I love this guy knowing that he's the producer on the fucking movie.

[9:06] Jesse McAnally: Yeah. Now, does anything work about this movie?

[9:10] Andrew DeWolf: Um, I think the performances of the songs are fine. I think. Good Lord. Honestly, the more I'm thinking about it, the more I'm like, this movie was really lame. Now, compared to the other biopics we've covered on this, which include Elvis and Bohemian Rhapsody, this is obviously the worst one.

[9:31] Jesse McAnally: Oh, that's no, I think that's actually a tougher choice.

[9:34] Andrew DeWolf: Really? Bohemian Rhapsody was very bad.

[9:36] Jesse McAnally: That's wacky. Like, at least Bohemian Rhapsody was doing something.

[9:40] Andrew DeWolf: I guess not. You like this one because it has a proper villain in Joe Jackson.

[9:44] Jesse McAnally: Yeah, I genuinely think this one might be better because it at least has a villain character where there's like at least a consistent conflict that happens throughout the movie where it's like, OK, there's like a thing here that our hero needs to overcome, though our hero being literally like Christ's reborn is like kind of obnoxious. But, you know, and I don't know the Joe Jackson as horrendous villain, like which he is. He's not a character with nuance at all. Every situation he's portrayed like this, this hulking like Oh, every single scene, every scene he shows up in, there is never an aspect of like even after Michael gets literally put in a almost died situation. The only thing Joe Jackson can say is, oh, when can he perform again? It's literally like he can't even pretend to care.

[10:43] Andrew DeWolf: And I just I don't. Is he like that in real life? I feel like he probably wasn't that he wasn't that bad, but he was still probably not a great dude. I'm not going to defend him. I don't think the real one was like fucking any that much better. But like, was he literally so bad as to be like a comic book villain, like a Lex Luthor? Like, I doubt that. I don't know. I just find it distracting. And I like Coleman Domingo as an actor. He's a really good performer. And here it's just like they put a jerry curl on him and he looks stupid throughout the entire movie.

[11:19] Jesse McAnally: Um, what what did you think of Mike Myers in the role of Walter Yetinikoff, the president of CBS Records?

[11:28] Andrew DeWolf: Yeah, I mean, it's whatever. I find it interesting because this and Bohemian Rhapsody have Mike Myers and ridiculous makeup in a costume playing like a record producer. And I'm like, what are we doing here? Is that just his gig now? What's up? I feel like what's also kind of like telling about what this movie is, is the whole entire like record like label. They're like portrayed as like the good guys like who made this movie. And I feel like it's them, right? It's like it's a lot of his family. But like, I don't know. It's like Joe Jackson is like the sole source of malice in his life, basically. The record label guy, he's completely on his side.

[12:14] Jesse McAnally: There's like there's no real like there's like very very brief references to the racism in the industry. The Jackson 5, that was like a big thing, right? Right, because that was like a breakthrough for black performers. That's never brought up, like not really, not in a meaningful way.

[12:33] Andrew DeWolf: No.

[12:34] Jesse McAnally: On top of that, like every scene plays out like we're introducing like Thanos. Like we meet Barry Gordy and he's like given the fanfare of like an MCU cameo.

[12:44] Andrew DeWolf: Bubbles.

[12:45] Jesse McAnally: Yeah, Bubbles too is like this really big build up to the CGI monster that comes out of Michael's car. Oh my god. And um, oh god, all the stuff with the animals is like, he's like, it reminds me of Wonka. Like Michael Jackson is like not a real person. He's like a whimsical, like, oh I just love everything in the imagination and animals from everywhere. And it's like, what is happening, man? Like what are we doing? Not to be this guy because I know that movies aren't meant to be a reflection of reality. They're supposed to be a narrative, but maybe this had a narrative. Maybe I wouldn't be harping on this stuff. Michael Jackson did not talk like that all the time.

[13:37] Andrew DeWolf: Yeah, I think that's actually true. No, I feel like I've seen interviews with him where he talks in a much more normal...

[13:41] Jesse McAnally: Yeah, he talked like that is a public persona that he puts on. There are people that knew him personally, it's like that's not his normal voice. There are his fans, they're like no, that's not his normal voice. He has a deep voice when he wants to, and he can throw it on when he's angry. And I think that would have been an interesting choice to have one scene where he just lowers the register. And I feel like that would like as a performer be an interesting thing to play, but we couldn't do anything interesting. And we could not tamper with Michael's persona at all because that's what makes money. Like the entire time, like this does not tell the story of Michael Jackson's life. This tells the story of like the cultural idea of his life, you know?

[14:26] Andrew DeWolf: Yes. Um, have you watched the HBO documentary Leaving Neverland?

[14:30] Jesse McAnally: I have not.

[14:34] Andrew DeWolf: It is harrowing. It is a film directed by Dan Reed about going into details of the accusation by Wade Robson and James Safechuck who alleged that they were sexually abused as children by Michael Jackson. When it first came out in 2019, there was a brief blowback. They removed like a lot of Michael Jackson music from the air. They removed the Simpsons episode where he was a guest star, like that's still gone from Disney.

[15:01] Jesse McAnally: Yeah, they still have done that. Um, but do you know why that documentary is impossible to find now?

[15:07] Andrew DeWolf: Is it really? I don't know.

[15:09] Jesse McAnally: Yes, and there is criticisms of it, um, from Michael Jackson's lawyers as they should be. Um, like, you know, if anything's coming out with these harsh of critiques and allegations, uh, you should be ready for people to come at you. Um, however, however, um, there was a lawsuit against HBO. Um, Howard Weitzman, the attorney for the Jackson estate, wrote a letter to HBO's chief, um, saying that it was journalistically unethical and basically pulled a clause from a previous thing that Michael Jackson signed with HBO saying that they had a non-disparagement clause in a 1992 contract agreeing to run a... basically Michael Jackson did something in 1992 with HBO saying you cannot ever say anything bad about me forever, and that includes this documentary.

[16:09] Andrew DeWolf: Oh, that just feels like such a cop-out way to remove that.

[16:12] Jesse McAnally: So the minute that it kind of um, happened, um, it was pulled from all services and not renewed. Um, there is a new film by Dan Reed called that was done for Channel Four in Britain, um, called Leaving Neverland to Surviving Michael Jackson. I have not seen it, um, and people were a lot less behind that one. Um, it's real fucked up, the allegations. Look into it yourself. The film isn't really about that, but I have to bring it up because you can't not bring it up. And this film is so navel-gazy about anything negative with Michael Jackson.

[16:49] Andrew DeWolf: I would say there's effectively no criticism of Michael Jackson whatsoever in this film.

[16:53] Jesse McAnally: Maybe the plastic surgery, they at least talk about that, which I was surprised by a little bit. Honestly though, there's even a scene about that where like, somebody's telling him how good it looks.

[17:03] Andrew DeWolf: Yeah, how much do you think of the singing is Jafar Jackson versus some funky audio stuff going on?

[17:13] Jesse McAnally: I feel like you can tell when it's one and when it's the other. Like in a way, like I feel like there's like a almost like a switch where it's like it sounds one way and then, oh, it sounds like Michael Jackson.

[17:20] Andrew DeWolf: Yeah, even his speaking voice I'm thinking might have been touched up a little bit because, you know, they can do AI shit nowadays where they can just take all these recordings of Michael Jackson speaking, take Jafar Jackson's performance and just kind of lay it over there. I'm not accusing anyone of using that, but it could happen because no one really speaks like Michael Jackson. Because if he, even if we trained for hours to sound like Michael Jackson, we just sound like we're talking like this and it sounds ridiculous.

[18:01] Jesse McAnally: Um, it's a hard voice to do in a way that sounds actual. Um, I gotta say though, I didn't like this movie. I don't think it was well made and I didn't think it was that effective aside from maybe like one or two dance numbers. I think it's a little better than the stage musical MJ the musical.

[18:11] Andrew DeWolf: That is a bold take I'm having.

[18:13] Jesse McAnally: Okay, I have I seen that?

[18:17] Andrew DeWolf: You have not. Did we cover that?

[18:19] Jesse McAnally: You have not. I was like, I do not feel like I've seen that. And then like sometimes I forget things, but I feel like I would have remembered at least some aspect of that. And I feel like I'd not see that. I feel like such a lame guy and such a person that like just can't enjoy something fun.

[18:33] Andrew DeWolf: That was one of the worst things I've ever seen live. Good lord.

[18:39] Jesse McAnally: So what does that entail?

[18:41] Andrew DeWolf: It is this basically, um, but it takes place in I think 1984 where the tension is will Michael Jackson put on this concert that we know he put on?

[18:48] Jesse McAnally: Oh, well that's not a good tension to have.

[18:53] Andrew DeWolf: Yeah, that is the tension. And then it's like Michael Jackson has to think about his entire life before he can perform. And then we flash back to like all your favorite songs. And then at the climax, they do "Thriller" where he has a nightmare and then guess what? He does the concert. And I have never been less engaged in a stage musical in my entire life.

[19:09] Jesse McAnally: That literally just sounds like a reason, like they were cooking up whatever reason they could think of to do a Michael Jackson impersonation concert but not call it that.

[19:20] Andrew DeWolf: It, yeah, and the actors that they have always playing Michael Jackson are good, but I don't give a shit. I don't care. The thing is, Michael Jackson is at least be honest and just call it a re-impersonation concert. Like just to say I'm impersonating Michael Jackson, I'm doing a concert. The thing is, Michael Jackson is an interesting figure and they just want to focus on the most boring shit about him and everything that he's being touched on nowadays.

[19:49] Jesse McAnally: Yeah, they don't want to talk about any of the controversial stuff.

[19:56] Andrew DeWolf: And it doesn't even have to just be the completely negative stuff like the, you know, child abuse stuff. Like what about the plastic surgery? Like that's very controversial. Like, and I don't mean the beginner plastic surgery. I mean like, I mean the man turns white.

[20:12] Jesse McAnally: That's a skin condition that's been well confirmed, sure.

[20:16] Andrew DeWolf: But that's interesting. That's interesting. You could talk about that. Like there is stuff about Michael Jackson that is interesting aside from the fact is, isn't it really cool that he did "Thriller"?

[20:27] Jesse McAnally: Yeah, but no one cares about that. We want to see...

[20:30] Andrew DeWolf: I gotta say the "Thriller" scene, the way they shoot John Landis, they found like a clone or someone that looks exactly like John Landis to play credible accused murderer John Landis.

[20:41] Jesse McAnally: Um, and I mean he was the ultimate helicopter parent. He brought us Max Landis.

[20:48] Andrew DeWolf: That's true.

[20:49] Jesse McAnally: I get the joke there. That's a bit dark.

[20:54] Andrew DeWolf: It's a bit edgy. It's very dark, very edgy.

[20:56] Jesse McAnally: I mean the fact that they are kind of um...

[21:01] Andrew DeWolf: Yeah, now the thing is they end it with the, oh just you wait, you ain't seen nothing yet. Michael's life continues.

[21:07] Jesse McAnally: What could they do for a second one? Because they gotta touch on the wacky shit, the wacko jacko quote unquote.

[21:14] Andrew DeWolf: I feel like you could just do it but just not mention it at all. You could just have it where he opens up Neverland or whatever and we see all that stuff, but just nothing ever happens with that.

[21:25] Jesse McAnally: It could be interesting. Like even if we're gonna be like tragic loss, cover his addiction to prescription like fucking anesthetic that caused his death.

[21:31] Andrew DeWolf: Yeah, that's quite an addiction to have, my god. Like he needed propofol to sleep.

[21:38] Jesse McAnally: So was that actually whatever doctor he had his fault? I remember when he died that people were blaming that on his doctor.

[21:46] Andrew DeWolf: I mean, I think his doctor was actually arrested for it.

[21:51] Jesse McAnally: Okay, so that was actually was the doctor's fault?

[21:57] Andrew DeWolf: Yes, um, Conrad Murray was the doctor's name.

[22:05] Jesse McAnally: Um, and is he still in prison?

[22:10] Andrew DeWolf: He was convicted for the death of Michael Jackson.

[22:12] Jesse McAnally: Jackson, yes. Damn, so he was actually responsible.

[22:19] Andrew DeWolf: That's fucking... legally he was found responsible, yes. But it is like, it is propofol is a fucked up drug. As someone that has been under it a couple times, it messes you up. And yeah, you feel like you're asleep, but he's never been asleep. Like for going to sleep, he administered propofol, lorazepam, and midazolam. Fucked up shit.

[22:39] Jesse McAnally: You see, that would be like, that's like an interesting thing to show. Like you could show him meeting this doctor or whatever. Like, like even a movie I don't think is perfect but is at least interesting covering warts and all, like Selena, um, where they show her meeting this person that would eventually end up taking her life and all that. And that is a major part of the third act of that story. Here, nothing. I don't know, it's just we just don't get anything really interesting. There's no juicy details. It's just like showing concerts and the only conflict is just like his dad is an asshole.

[23:09] Andrew DeWolf: Well, how will I get out of the thumb of my dad?

[23:15] Jesse McAnally: I know you will. You're Michael Jackson. There is no threat.

[23:21] Andrew DeWolf: Honestly, there also was no threat. Like yes, his dad was an asshole, but he could have at any time just taken his money and left. He just didn't want to. Like the conflict was with himself. It was just like, well, I don't want to though. I like my family. That was it.

[23:33] Jesse McAnally: Okay, let's go into a mid-show and then we'll talk some more stuff.

[24:04] ♪ Musical number: "Pepsi Generation" — performed by Andrew DeWolf ♪

[24:28] ♪ Musical number: "Pepsi Generation" — performed by Michael Jackson ♪

[25:18] Jesse McAnally: Hey guys, sorry to interrupt you in the middle of the show but we've got a show for you. Today's show is brought to you by the extremely kind donations by our donors over at Patreon. Patreon is where you can go if you'd like to give us a little bit of support so we can keep the show running. And also you get some extra perks because we have a whole extra podcast over there where Jess and Liz are discussing things. And we also have a backlog where we have talked about other things that are still up there. And of course you can join the live conversation while we're recording these. Right now we have a puffy one in here discussing Pepsiman with us. So yeah, that's excellent. Also, we'll read your name every episode like I'm about to do right now. Our current patrons are...

[27:24] Jesse McAnally: These folks give us a little extra financial support that helps us keep the lights on here at Musicals with Cheese. And if you'd like to join them and get tons of fun perks like Andrew said, you can come join us there. Alright, let's get back to the show.

[27:34] ♪♪♪

[27:45] Jesse McAnally: From Michael Jackson.

[27:47] ♪♪♪

[27:52] Jesse McAnally: Off the Wall features five hit singles.

[27:55] ♪♪♪

[27:59] Jesse McAnally: Off the Wall, yet it's more than Michael Jackson magic.

[28:03] ♪♪♪

[28:07] Jesse McAnally: Off the Wall, another thriller from Michael Jackson. The wizardry of Lucas. The mastery of Coppola. The phenomenal music and dance of Michael Jackson.

[28:22] ♪♪♪

[28:26] Andrew DeWolf: Jesse, it's time for everyone's favorite part of the show, where you have to compare whether these real-life Letterboxd reviews are a one-star or five-star based on nothing but the review alone. It's time for previews!

[29:04] Andrew DeWolf: I flubbed last week's pretty bad, so let's see if I can redeem myself here.

[29:15] Jesse McAnally: I mean, you weren't that bad. You just assumed everyone liked, uh, Coco.

[29:19] Andrew DeWolf: Which is a totally fair assumption, I feel.

[29:21] Jesse McAnally: Ah, I don't know. Alright, you ready?

[29:24] Andrew DeWolf: I'm ready.

[29:26] Jesse McAnally: Michael is the kindest person in the world. Thank God for letting us meet him.

[29:31] Andrew DeWolf: Good fucking Lord, I can't—this is either, like, a fucking Gen X or Boomer being totally fucking real, or someone like us being a cynical asshole and being like, I can't believe how this movie portrays this. I'm gonna say it's actually the first one, and this is a five.

[29:47] Andrew DeWolf: That was a one!

[29:49] Jesse McAnally: Fuck, it was the cynical version. Everything's cynical!

[29:54] Andrew DeWolf: It's not true, okay? Older people are not cynical. Only younger people are cynical.

[29:58] Jesse McAnally: That's the case? Okay, okay, okay. Are you ready?

[30:01] Andrew DeWolf: Yeah.

[30:02] Jesse McAnally: Michael Jackson will return in Avengers Doomsday.

[30:05] Andrew DeWolf: Okay, that's clearly fucking cynical. That's gotta be a one.

[30:08] Jesse McAnally: That is correct!

[30:12] Andrew DeWolf: Next one!

[30:13] Jesse McAnally: Uh-huh.

[30:14] Andrew DeWolf: Oh my fucking God, bruh.

[30:16] Jesse McAnally: Oh my fucking God, bruh.

[30:18] Andrew DeWolf: That feels like a one, but—

[30:20] Jesse McAnally: No, it feels like a one. I'm going with my gut. That's a one.

[30:22] Andrew DeWolf: That was wrong! It's a five!

[30:25] Jesse McAnally: Motherfucker, dude. Okay. Alright, next.

[30:30] Andrew DeWolf: Mm-hmm.

[30:31] Jesse McAnally: This movie treats John Landis like he's Thanos in a post-credits scene.

[30:38] Andrew DeWolf: Um, you wrote this, so I'm gonna go one.

[30:41] Jesse McAnally: That is correct!

[30:45] Andrew DeWolf: I did not write that, though.

[30:47] Jesse McAnally: Okay. You sure?

[30:48] Andrew DeWolf: I am certain. Um, last one.

[30:51] Jesse McAnally: Pepsi.

[30:52] Andrew DeWolf: Five.

[30:53] Jesse McAnally: That is correct! Andrew, you did all right!

[30:57] Andrew DeWolf: I'm about to be starting something.

[30:59] Jesse McAnally: About to be starting something. Was there—I mean, I guess the question is, what is your favorite Michael Jackson song?

[31:07] Andrew DeWolf: Um...

[31:08] Jesse McAnally: If you have one.

[31:09] Andrew DeWolf: Man in the Mirror.

[31:10] Jesse McAnally: Really?

[31:11] Andrew DeWolf: Yeah, it's either Man in the Mirror or, uh...

[31:14] Jesse McAnally: I do think, um...

[31:16] Andrew DeWolf: Beat It is good.

[31:17] Jesse McAnally: See, I'm a big fan of Smooth Criminal, and that's kinda like the only one that I'm like, oh yeah, I'll listen to that one.

[31:24] Andrew DeWolf: I think Smooth Criminal's good. Honestly, I don't hate Michael Jackson. I think Michael Jackson's—he has plenty of good songs. Once in a generation, talent, dancer, all of the above. He has very good songs, very good, uh... fucking dance moves. Honestly, I think the Jackson 5, they have some pretty good songs, too. The thing is, every iteration of Michael Jackson's career, he did something I've liked.

[31:50] Jesse McAnally: Yeah, like, I really don't have an issue with Michael Jackson as a musician or a performer. Or as, like, a piece of iconography. Because I know you bring up, like, Beyoncé, and the way that the culture kind of treats her as, like, the be-all, end-all as far as artists.

[32:09] Andrew DeWolf: Yeah.

[32:10] Jesse McAnally: And people did treat Michael Jackson that way, too, but I just feel it more from him. He has more of a presence to him. I feel like Beyoncé has, like a... it's more niche. It's more like, it's for a specific crowd. When I was young, 95% of what I heard about Michael Jackson was just about the allegations.

[32:27] Andrew DeWolf: That's because that was when that was happening. I think I was born right when Michael Jackson got married to Lisa Marie Presley.

[32:34] Jesse McAnally: Mm-hmm.

[32:38] Andrew DeWolf: Which ties it all back to Elvis.

[32:39] Jesse McAnally: Yep, of course. Yeah, so all that kind of stuff kind of happens around there. Like, was that the case for you as well?

[32:45] Andrew DeWolf: Oh, yeah, for sure. Like, Michael Jackson was just shorthand for pedophile for a lot of folks.

[32:53] Jesse McAnally: Yeah, but I think the thing is, though, you still know so much of his music because it's, like, ubiquitous.

[32:58] Andrew DeWolf: Mm-hmm.

[33:01] Jesse McAnally: Like, I probably know as much or more Michael Jackson than, like, most modern bands that are popular.

[33:09] Andrew DeWolf: I think more. Like, Michael Jackson just kept existing until the end of his life.

[33:15] Jesse McAnally: Yeah. He's never stopped being relevant even after he died.

[33:20] Andrew DeWolf: Yeah, and he genuinely put out a ton of good music. The thing with these biopic movies, though, and why I think they're so fucking boring is that they just pick somebody who made good music and then they're just like, let's just tell a story that's like, this guy is awesome and he made good music and then we play some of his songs.

[33:38] Jesse McAnally: Yeah, that's it. Just like, let's play this guy's songs. And it's like, that's great. But honestly, if I just wanted to listen to his songs, I just listen to his fucking songs. And also, if I listen to his songs, I can listen to the versions that he did. I don't need to listen to a cover. Because that's what the other thing these movies do, is they have the actor cover it and they act like it's such a selling point. Like, oh, the actor's really covering it. He's back, guys.

[34:01] Andrew DeWolf: I don't want to hear a cover. I don't want to hear a cover. I want to hear the actual song.

[34:06] Jesse McAnally: It's like he's reborn. And I'm not even convinced that Jafar Jackson is doing most of this. I mean, the story is kind of like the family connection. Like, he is the nephew of Michael Jackson, which is more than most people have. Like, more than Austin Butler had for Elvis, where he's like, I feel compelled by Elvis. I still talk like Elvis.

[34:23] Andrew DeWolf: I think also, the thing I don't like about this movie is as a biopic, I feel like I didn't learn anything about Michael's life. Like, I feel like it didn't actually teach me anything about what really went on in his life. Because I genuinely don't know how his career went. And I was interested in learning, like, okay, when did he leave the Jackson 5? Like, how did that go down? And he never really does. It just kind of happens on the movie ends.

[34:55] Jesse McAnally: Yeah, and it's just like, I feel like we don't... I want to see... I want to learn something. You know, it's a biopic. I want to learn something, and you don't. It's just like fun times with Michael, where he does whimsical stuff.

[35:11] Andrew DeWolf: Michael Jackson's greatest hits.

[35:12] Jesse McAnally: Yeah, and it's just like, I don't care to listen to all of his songs. I've heard all of his songs. That's why I'm here. Like, I already know all of his songs. Like, I want to learn. Why did this make $1 billion? Is it because we all like hearing Michael Jackson's songs? Yes, it was that. People went to see it because they wanted to see a Michael Jackson concert, and they got it. That's what they got. And it's not even the first time they've done this. Like, remember This Is It, the concert movie that was released in 3D, directed by High School Baseball's Kenny Ortega. Do you remember that being a thing that existed?

[36:43] Andrew DeWolf: I remember it being a thing that existed. I've not seen it. It's a boringer than shit. I'm not surprised. Seeing a guy try to prep for a concert that never happened because he died is not that interesting. No.

[36:43] Andrew DeWolf: There's so little going on. And it's just like, do you are the people that want to see Michael concerts? Are they even getting what they want from this? You know, I guess I mean, this was not reviewed well, nor do I imagine it could have been like, could there be an interesting movie with the stipulations that they had? Because Antoine Fuqua is a good director. He's made good movies that I've liked. It's not even like this looks terrible. I mean, everyone kind of has iPhone face, but that's about it. I guess the question is, what are the restrictions? Like, are the restrictions he has to be portrayed like this? He I'm not even saying he needs to be a villain or he needs to be like explicitly doing bad things.

But like, why is he such an uncomplicated character? What would you do? Andrew DeWolf directing the Michael Jackson movie and using me as your researcher? Like, what would be your attempt to hit like the beats that this movie hits in a little more interesting way? I think the main through line of this movie should be his relationship with the Jackson Five, especially if we're ending where we do, especially if we're ending where we do, which I feel like one of the stipulations that this movie put on is that it has to end where we do because you can't go any further. So the relationship with his father should be played up like it is. And that's fine. I'm going to pitch you the brothers. The brothers need to be characters that exist as well.

And he needs to have a relationship with them. I'm going to pitch you something, and it might be weird and it might be a little derivative. What if Joe Jackson's the main character and he's this guy that like this fucking huckster that keeps trying to find a way out and he finds this fucking miraculous golden goose that grows beyond him and he can't keep and it just pisses him off. Then you don't have to make Michael Jackson the main character because he will just be this cypher. And Joe Jackson doesn't need to be involved in the allegation stuff and all that other stuff. And you can still have like the performance stuff. But from the point of view of this villain, I think you just described Elvis.

[38:52] Jess McAnally: I did. But Elvis worked because of that. No, I think you're completely right. And I honestly, I think Joe Jackson is the more interesting character, not because he's like a guy I want to sympathize. But because as a person, he was just more complex and honestly more abrasive and more passionate to for his own ends. You know, like I, I think he's the character that makes more sense to follow. And he seems like he has a goal where Michael Jackson seems to float through shit in this movie. Yeah. Michael Jackson's goal is like, oh, I just have so many things I want to say about the world. And it's like, OK, so you're an artist. OK, like I'm sorry, but like an artist, a drift in the world is not an interesting character. A man that's like, I want to get out of Gary. And I failed to make something like he's Mama Rose. And we love that musical.

[40:05] Andrew DeWolf: Yeah, it makes more sense. And you don't have to have him be the good guy. No, like he could. The ending can be him losing it all and fucking that sucks. You know, like like that, I am more compelled by that. And that is kind of what they do in Jackson's The American Dream, which I think is a much more interesting biopic than this is. But man, I just like imagining that movie of this bitter old guy that the world has basically decided like is the villain of the story because he is and then following that trail so that we don't have to like play with any of the unfortunate pieces of Michael Jackson. I don't know. I'm I'm compelled by that.

[40:36] Jess McAnally: Yeah, no, I think that that was it wouldn't sell as well, though. But I think it might, though, if you market it just on the music videos, which they basically did, you get the asses into the seats. I don't know if you'd get repeat viewings, but yeah. No, I think as far as like how to do it, that's the right choice. I think as far as how to make money doing it, they maybe they made more doing this. I'm not sure. I do. They interest me as much. No, no. I guess it doesn't matter if you make good movies anymore or good entertainment or good musicals. MJ, the musical is running longer than most good shit. Look, I'm sorry, but like movies are not made for what we're looking for. Movies. This Michael Jackson movie, you know what it's perfect for?

There's a music part. You watch it and then you know what you do when the other parts are happening and there's no music playing your phone. You play on your phone, pull out the Tetris, the Angry Birds, the Candy Crush. What they literally what was the the person who came out and was like, Netflix is telling us to when we're writing shows, make sure we repeat things multiple times because the person on their phone might not have gotten at the first time. Ben Affleck and Matt Damon said that when they started making movies for Netflix.

[42:01] Andrew DeWolf: Yeah, I think that that's that's an industry thing, though. I think that it's not just Netflix. I think it's a lot of other things. Yes, but man, I've seen some good shit lately that that's given me hope. I watched The Invite. I enjoyed that a lot. Is there anything else? I know you were not a big fan of Obsession.

[42:13] Jess McAnally: No, I thought it was fine. I just didn't think it was. I felt like it was getting hyped up as like the next like amazing thing. And then I watched it and I was like, that was good. I mean, I was like, oh, I'm going to watch it again. I'm going to watch it again. And then I watched it and I was like, that was good. Pretty good. Solid, like seven out of 10. You know, I liked Backrooms better.

[42:27] Andrew DeWolf: I've yet to see Backrooms still. That's still on my to the watch list. They put out a new Backrooms YouTube video today as of today.

[42:34] Jess McAnally: Does it connect to the movie?

[42:36] Andrew DeWolf: I don't know. I haven't watched it yet. I haven't had time. You're just sitting here like, I want this fucking podcast to end so I can watch Backrooms.

[42:41] Jess McAnally: I need to watch the Backrooms. I can't even do it after this ends because I have plans right afterwards.

[42:46] Andrew DeWolf: Oh, God, what are you doing afterwards?

[42:48] Jess McAnally: I'm going out to go out to eat.

[42:50] Andrew DeWolf: You're not allowed to do that.

[42:52] Jess McAnally: I am allowed to do that. But then again, I've watched some dog shit, too. I've watched Supergirl, which was fine. Disclosure Day, I really liked. There's stuff out there that's worth watching. But most things are Michael or Moana, too.

[43:06] Andrew DeWolf: Yeah, maybe the truth is it's always been that way. And, you know, maybe that's the case. Either way, Andrew, what is your overall thoughts on Michael and your cheese ratings?

[43:16] Andrew DeWolf: Oh, man. So, Michael, I thought was really boring. Genuinely, genuinely, that's that's my my final impression. I think this movie is just kind of boring. It's just like it doesn't offer very much to anyone outside of just like you guys want to listen to Michael Jackson songs. And it's like, that's great. But it could have been something interesting. It could have been a real movie. It could have. And it's not. And it's it's such it's so lame because I feel like Michael Jackson as a person is interesting. And it's just like they didn't do shit with it.

[43:56] Jess McAnally: On that note, and your cheese rating, sir.

[44:02] Andrew DeWolf: Geez, I don't know. It's Michael Jackson. There's no cheese reference in this shit. Good reference. Eat it. I'm sure they mentioned cheese in that song.

[44:11] Jess McAnally: The Weird Al cover.

[44:12] Andrew DeWolf: No, I don't think they do. Yeah, I'll just give it a I'll give it a fucking cheeseburger. I feel like I think of cheeseburgers when I think of Michael Jackson. Is he advertised like McDonald's or something?

[44:21] Jess McAnally: Definitely Pepsi.

[44:23] Andrew DeWolf: He definitely did Pepsi. Let's see. Yeah, he definitely stood in front of a McDonald's sign. Yeah, it's going to get a McDonald's cheeseburger because it's low quality and lame.

[44:37] Jess McAnally: Yeah. Yeah. I am giving it a mac and cheese because apparently that was one of Michael Jackson's favorite food.

[44:44] Andrew DeWolf: OK, that. Yeah, we'll say that makes sense. I guess what we really didn't talk about is the Pepsi commercial. And we should have.

[44:51] Jess McAnally: Yeah. So the Pepsi commercial. This is portrayed as like a pivotal moment in his life, which might be true. It definitely probably got him addicted to some things. There's an actual video of this event.

[45:04] Andrew DeWolf: I've not seen that.

[45:05] Jess McAnally: Yeah, it's much faster than they showed in the movie because it's like the hair catches fire. He takes like three steps, does a spin and everyone's on him to get it down. Yeah, I'm sure it was very scary. Obviously, I wouldn't want my hair to be on fire. So I get it is apparently at the exact midpoint of his life. Is that true?

[45:24] Andrew DeWolf: That's a wild thing to think about.

[45:26] Jess McAnally: That's from the puffy one.

[45:27] Andrew DeWolf: OK, I don't know what to do with that, but it did change where he was from being little baby Michael Jackson, the Jackson Five to being superstar Michael Jackson with the long, wacky hair. They never really answer. Was his hair a wig?

[45:39] Jess McAnally: I think it became a wig after that point.

[45:41] Andrew DeWolf: Yes. OK. At least partially. The MJ musical has a throwaway line like, yeah, I got my hair burnt off in a Pepsi commercial, so now I got a weird wig. Why are you dying your skin? I'm not dying my skin. I've got a disease.

[45:54] Jess McAnally: Yeah, I would. I would love to learn more about that, too, because that's just like, I don't know. I think I think what I wanted was like a more of a documentary style, like what was Michael Jackson's life like? This was more of like a rosy retelling. Wasn't it great when he did Thriller? You love Thriller.

[46:11] Andrew DeWolf: Yeah. All right. Well, that's that's that. There's Michael. Michael covered Michael. Will we still cover MJ the musical? Probably. It's like one of the worst things I've ever seen live. Like I got in for free and I still feel like I wasted money.

[46:26] Jess McAnally: That sounds bad. I'm excited to watch it.

[46:29] Andrew DeWolf: And then you'll watch it. You'll be like, it was fun. What are you talking about? It was great.

[46:33] Jess McAnally: I probably I probably won't. It sounds boring. Like I've never struggled to stay awake at a stage. Pretty Woman, which I think is not a good musical, kept me more entertained.

[46:45] Andrew DeWolf: God damn. So we'll see you next week on Musicals with Cheese.

[46:51] Jess McAnally: Do you can you sing a Michael Jackson song?

[47:03] Andrew DeWolf: Do you know one?

[47:04] Jess McAnally: Um, do you know the song, Ben?

[47:08] Andrew DeWolf: No, but I don't man in the mirror.

[47:09] Jess McAnally: All right, let's go for it. Um, look, it was it I'm waiting for. Or, um, I'm starting with not the start with. That's it. I'm starting with the man in the mirror.

[47:21] Andrew DeWolf: Oh, yeah. I'm asking him to change his ways. And no question could have been any clearer. If you want to make the world a better place, take a look at yourself and make that change.

[47:38] Jess McAnally: Except it's Doug Walker as Chester a bum.

[47:41] Andrew DeWolf: No, no, no, no, no, no, no, no. And we got so much more Michael Jackson to cover Moonwalker Moonwalker. That one actually looks fun. And it's like it's like Moonwalker's pretty fun. I think that'd be a great time. There's not much talk about because there's certain places like music videos. It's like videos are art, though. Media music videos be art, you know?

[48:03] Jess McAnally: Yeah, that's right. Michael, the movie. Mm, maybe not art. Kind of more mid. The Musicals with Cheese podcast is hosted by Jesse McAnally and Andrew DeWolf. Our executive producer is Jesse McAnally and our creative producer is Elizabeth Esten. This show is mixed and edited by Jesse McAnally. Our theme song was composed by Andrew DeWolf, and the artwork was designed by JRL Studios. Our keeper of the cheese is the one and only Juliet Antonio. If you have the funds available, we would love to have you over at Patreon where you can get tons of fun perks, including full bonus episodes. Also, if you don't mind, could you leave us a review on Apple Podcasts or a comment on Spotify? Just a few extra words to let us know how we're doing.

And if you have any corrections, ideas or just want to say hello, send us an email at musicaltheaterlives at gmail.com. To listen to our entire backlog of episodes, please visit bpn.fm slash cheese. Thank you so much for listening and we'll see you next week.