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[0:19] Matt Rodin: Welcome to The Come Up. My name is Matt, and on this episode, a conversation with the one and only Gabby Beans.

[0:26] Matt Rodin: You might know Gabby from her Tony-nominated performance in The Skin of Our Teeth. But right now she is starring in Romeo and Juliet at the Circle in the Square Theater, starring Kit Connor and Rachel Zegler. She plays not one, not two, but three very important roles, Mercutio, the Friar, and The Prince. And we got to talk about all of them and what the through line is between the three of them. And it ended up being a really heartfelt, honest, inspiring conversation about the craft of acting, her journey, finding liberation through this particular show. And I think I learned a lot about Shakespeare and obviously about Gabby as well. But I came away feeling so full and excited about the work that we get to do on stage as actors and the way that that work affects who we are and who we're becoming. So I am just so grateful that she took the time to share with me and by proxy with all of you. So without further ado, here's my conversation with Gabby Beans.

[1:52] Matt Rodin: You know, your role in the show is interesting to me in that you're the first one that speaks, you're the last one that speaks, and as Mercutio and the Friar, you are the sort of pivotal turning points in the show in both roles. And I'm wondering where you're at in terms of how you think about or how you've been thinking about the through line of those sort of three roles that you play.

[2:16] Gabby Beans: Yeah, that's a really, really good question. I mean, one thing that very early on in rehearsal that Sam brought to us that was very inspiring to me was that this that, you know, we're doing the play, and we're also doing a piece about a bunch of people who feel the need to do this play.

[2:42] Gabby Beans: And he left a lot of space for us to bring our own reasons as to why we would want to do this play. And one of the things that we've been exploring, especially the folks of, you know, the members of our company that are doing double that are in roles that are double cast, is playing oppositions. So when I think about the larger effort of the piece as it as my part relates to it, it's an exploration for me of nihilism and idealism. Um Mercutio being an individual who, you know, there's like I don't know who said this. I think it might have been Jung or something. It's some sort of um European psychologist or something who's who talked about how hedonism is what comes after alienation. And so I think of Mercutio as being someone who is not allowed to exist in their fullness in the setting that they find themselves in, and so has become very nihilistic and alienated, and so there's that energy to explore, and then there's the energy of the Friar, which is about idealism and um open-heartedness and almost naive naivety. Um then the Prince is that sort of narration framing character is sort of outside of that polarity and observing that effort.

[4:25] Gabby Beans: So that's kind of how I think about it is like when the show feels good to me when I'm really committed to exploring those two sides of the spectrum of what it means to engage in community and what it means to engage in society. So for me, like very in a very real way, it's about looking at parts of myself that scare me, or looking at and rehearsing that for real in front of an audience, you know, is like thinking about, you know, with Mercutio, it's about what are all the ways that I'm scared to show up in the world, or like uh scared about being too much or um too bold or too sexual or whatever, and like, how do I like what would it be like if I allowed myself to be all those things and to explore that darkness and to either not care what others would think about that or to choose not to care.

[5:35] Gabby Beans: And then, you know, with the Friar, it's about what would it be like if I allowed myself to really believe that, you know, to just to be so unfailingly optimistic and to be so open-hearted and to see everything with uh a lot of love and positivity, even things that on the face may seem negative or um foreboding or something. And so it's so that's what it's about. It's like more about like that the central way of looking at the world and and allowing yourself to really invest in that in a full-hearted way. What what a privilege to be able to do that, um, honestly, because I think for me, the most gratifying part of being, or one of the most gratifying parts of being an actor is being able to bring your whole self to something that you're doing.

[6:35] Gabby Beans: Um, and it's funny because I I find that people are always very surprised when they hear that, even though sure we like we leave ourselves outside the stage door, we can't help but bring our current condition to where we what we're doing in the piece that night. And the fact that that is what is at the core of what it is that you're doing in this show is uh a gift, I imagine. Um especially in hearing you talk about it, that you really get to go to the two extreme ends of the spectrum. Like you get to go to this Queen Mab speech, hyper sexual, I don't give a fuck energy. But then also channel what what I, from what I understand, a huge part of who you are, which is this sort of optimistic, open-hearted being.

[7:31] Gabby Beans: Um yeah, that's that's that's pretty uh that's pretty rare, I feel. Um, and I and I'm I'm glad that that's sort of what the um the experience has been. I I know that one of the things that you try to focus on is telling stories that cultivate liberation, and it feels like what we were just talking about is a version of that in that you get to sort of liberate parts of yourself.

[8:05] Gabby Beans: Um I mean, frankly, Romeo and Juliet are sort of examples of what can happen when you liberate yourself from blind hate, maybe. Um, and and the story has always been a cautionary tale, I think, about about blind hate and what can happen to the people that we love personally and how blind hate affects the people that we love. Um but I would love to hear you talk a little bit about what it's doing for you as an actor.

[8:38] Gabby Beans: Um, because certainly in the context of the story, right? We're we're experiencing liberation. We're seeing these characters liberate themselves, but there is a sense in the audience that you guys as actors are also experiencing liberation in the telling of this story.

[8:57] Gabby Beans: Wow, I I am really moved by the way that you put that, first of all. So thanks for the opportunity to think about this because it's it's exciting. Um I think you know, it's interesting when you spoke about leaving yourself at the stage door, because I think that that's true in terms of the professionalism piece of it. But what I've found for myself, and I I wonder if you would um if this resonates with you at all, is that the material that I have to work with is just me.

[9:34] Gabby Beans: You know, like that's actually all the material I have. It's like yeah. Is how things land, how I think about things. And so for me, a lot of uh specifically more sort of directly with this project, but any project, really the question is I am this person now. What are the experiences and the ways of going through the world that I need to internalize in order to truly believe that I could do these things and have this experience, right?

[10:05] Gabby Beans: So, yeah, so I feel like all my work is very personal, and there might not, you know, you I think I I'm reading Harriet Walter's book, which is really good called Brutus and Other Heroines, and it's about her Shakespeare work. And I recommend it to anyone who's interested in her or Shakespeare acting or really just wants to read a good book.

[10:27] Gabby Beans: And she talks about how when you're approaching character, it's always a little bit directly you, and you just never tell anyone which part of it is, and that's what and then and and and then that's what makes it seem like oh, this is a new take. When really you're just being yourself.

[10:48] Gabby Beans: Yeah. But it does feel very what I will say is like feels liberatory about how we're doing this play and how we made it, is that Sam is I think really uh intentional about how he composes a company. And so he brought together a group of people who are really open, open people, and who are really loving and supportive and fun and and and daring.

[11:23] Gabby Beans: And so even just being in the ambient feeling in the room is one of okay, you're gonna go there, so I'll go there too. And I'll follow you, and I'm not gonna laugh at you, and I'm not gonna make you feel weird about it, but we're here to try things out, and like the way that that really manifested to me, and one of the most liberating things about this process for me is that I'm playing um, you know, two traditionally male parts, and as a black fan person, I have throughout my life as a person felt fearful uh around being perceived as masculine because of the political realities of living in America as a black person.

[12:05] Gabby Beans: And so even in my work, I have been like worried about being perceived as masculine because of the real sort of social impact that that can have on me in a negative way.

[12:18] Matt Rodin: Yeah.

[12:18] Gabby Beans: And so to be able to do that in a safe setting where this part of me is embraced and this part of me is seen, and that I can I can, you know, let it flow through me. It feels so empowering. And I will say like the members of our company when I felt self-conscious about, you know, trying on this more masculine energy within myself were so supportive and welcomed me in as like one of the boys and like treated me like one of the boys and could and I could see the sensitivity with which they were doing it, knowing that it was helping me do my work, but also knowing that like I was accepted like into the crew.

[13:04] Matt Rodin: Yeah.

[13:05] Gabby Beans: And um and that's like liberating to know that I can inhabit this, you know, this masculine energy and have it be accepted and have it be not have that impinge upon my femme identity, but have it be a sort of more nuanced and exploratory part of myself.

[13:27] Matt Rodin: Yeah.

[13:27] Gabby Beans: So that's a specific example of what's liberating about this.

[13:31] Matt Rodin: Yeah I I I want to go I want to go a little bit deeper on this in the sense that this this is a group of people who in in some way or another they reject what is expected of them. And even this production is a rejection of what you expect from Shakespeare, which I actually hadn't thought about until now I know you in undergrad studied neuroscience and theater and then ultimately made the decision to you were going to apply to med school.

[14:06] Gabby Beans: There was a version where you were going to apply to med school and you ultimately rejected what might have been expected of you and chose to follow the thing that lit you up which in some strange way like these characters also do that they they pursue the thing that lights them up um and so I'm curious to hear like in reflecting on that part of your life now and where you're at now and witnessing and watching and being a part of that process night after night um eight times a week um how that's sitting for you now wow that's very deep I'm really moved honestly um so you know there's this thing that people say about Romeo and Juliet specifically about Mercutio that like Mercutio has to get killed off because otherwise he'd pull the play in a direction that Shakespeare didn't want huh uh that that's like something that's said about Mercutio and when I was thinking about that character I was thinking about well what would the play be if Mercutio lived and and I was like you know what I think my Mercutio's play would be my Mercutio's play would be about escaping Verona.

[15:36] Matt Rodin: Right.

[15:36] Gabby Beans: It would be about being like okay like it would turn into Thelmo and Louise but with me Romeo and Ben Voglio driving off and being like, let's go to Mantua, let's go to Rome, let's go, let's go somewhere else. Because this is like you said, it's like I think Mercutio is the perfect example of a character in the play who's who is too who cook who can't fit in Verona, who's like their aspirations, the way they want to live their life, what they're looking for, it's like too big for that setting.

[16:07] Matt Rodin: Yeah.

[16:08] Gabby Beans: And I think that the thing that makes me really sad is the idea that like society sometimes, or and a lot of times, actively stifles our authenticity through fear. And the tragedy of Mercutio is that that resulted in death for that character. And when I look at my own life, wow, I feel so it's grace. Like it's just grace that one, I was I had some level of courage or confidence or something to be able to even try to pursue this. And then that would have been enough. To just have tried and failed would have been enough.

[17:01] Matt Rodin: Yeah.

[17:01] Gabby Beans: It wouldn't have even been a failure. It would have just been listening to intuition and being redirected. But then to listen to that voice and to arrive into a life where eight nights a week I get to like, you know what I mean? I'm really moved here. And to um be to to to, you know, sometimes fail in front of like 800 people. Um and sometimes not. And um, and that is like the blessing of my life. Like that is, yeah, and that's what when I'm playing that character, I'm like, there, but for the grace of God, go by. Like, you know, so that's it is really deep, and it's like we are so privileged that we are able to do this work.

[17:54] Matt Rodin: Truly.

[17:57] Gabby Beans: It doesn't surprise me then that this production is resonating with a younger audience than I think people probably anticipated. I mean, certainly having, you know, quote unquote names attached. Um, it it draws in a certain crowd, but I was moved by the number of youth that were there last night and the way that it's affecting them. Um I I would just love to hear you talk about that that aspect of it, um, and what you've seen um in the process of you know, the run of the show so far and how it has affected this younger generation of theater growers that maybe have never been to a theater and definitely probably never been to a Shakespeare before.

[18:46] Gabby Beans: Yeah, that's one of the one of the absolute highlights of this experience. I mean, the number of times at Stage Door, I'm talking to some young people, and there's they they share with me that this is sometimes their first play they've seen, sometimes their first.

[19:02] Matt Rodin: Wow.

[19:03] Gabby Beans: Um certainly their first Shakespeare that they've seen, and to be part of people's lives in that way, it's not lost on me. I mean, that's why I am in this job right now, is because I had these formative experiences in the theater that really lit me up and inspired me. And I think it's also not lost on any of us in the company that our our company is comprised of a lot of queer people, a lot of people of color. Um and we are a lot of people's first ever Shakespeare. And like to see just to like to have one of the like arguably the most famous play in the English language to be performed in such an irreverent and playful and wild way with a bunch of people that wouldn't ordinarily be cast in these roles.

[19:57] Matt Rodin: Yes, I think is really important.

[19:59] Gabby Beans: And I think it's on a it feels like it's changing things on a cellular level, and we're so grateful. First of all, like Kit and Rachel are amazing people, and they're freaks of nature because they're so gorgeous, so talented, so young, so successful, and so nice. Like it's I I kid you not, like they are so I'm very happy to do it. They're joys to be around. Like, I spend so much time. I mean, I wish I had more time on stage with Rachel. I spend a lot of time on stage with Kit, and he is the real deal. Like, he is an incredible actor and so young, and it's so cool to play with him, but um, but we're so grateful to them because it it means that we get to do this kind of boundary pushing work without this huge commercial um pressure over our heads because they have such huge fan bases, yeah.

[21:00] Matt Rodin: So they have these these awesome fan bases of like really young, lovely people who love them, who wanna see them win, who come in and wanna and by extension want to see us do well, yeah.

[21:10] Gabby Beans: And so it meant that like before we started previews, we were extended and we knew we were gonna be playing to people. And that is a huge, huge blessing. So we love our young audiences. We uh there's just so much energy in the theater, unlike anything I've ever experienced.

[21:31] Matt Rodin: Yes.

[21:31] Gabby Beans: To hear these to hear people laughing on at these really old jokes.

[21:38] Matt Rodin: Yes.

[21:38] Gabby Beans: And that's that like stuff. You know, there's one joke that I tell on the show that I to this day, like I'd say I understand it seventy percent.

[21:47] Matt Rodin: Yeah.

[21:49] Gabby Beans: And and and that's not for lack of research.

[21:52] Matt Rodin: I'm sure.

[21:53] Gabby Beans: I'm sure. So anyway, it's a it's a really like I don't know, it's I I think it's one of those things where maybe we'll f we'll have a better sense of how this is impacting people like a few years from now, once you've had some time and but in the eye of the storm right now, even it's just uh uh really cool.

[22:12] Matt Rodin: I I was also struck by, you know, the sense that so many times, I mean, I I went to school in Boston and there was a lot of Shakespeare happening up there, and so I would go see Shakespeare all the time. And one of the things I found frustrating at, you know, 20 years old was that I couldn't understand every word, or that I that I d I didn't understand every single piece.

[22:30] Gabby Beans: And something that struck me last night was that I didn't need to. That I was it was okay to be washed with the experience and to have just a general understanding of the intention or what it is that they're saying. It doesn't, the the sp the specificity isn't necessarily, the specificity of language isn't necessarily important.

[22:55] Gabby Beans: And I I think pro probably because of my age now, that's like I'm I'm in that space that I can I can be okay with that. Um but I hadn't experienced that with Shakespeare before.

[23:06] Gabby Beans: That that it was more about a sense or um an aesthetic, maybe is the wrong word, um, of the language that that I that if you can get hooked into and you can understand what's being what's being said rather than specifically what is what is word for word being said, that's good enough.

[23:27] Gabby Beans: And another piece that I hadn't really ever noticed, which is tied to the language, and I was talking to my husband about it last night is Romeo's language is so fucking flowery. I mean, it is gorgeous. It's this like, and Kit, you're right, I mean, he's the real fucking deal. He is so excellent in the show and has such a delicious like hold of the language in a way that I really haven't experienced before. And the contrast that I felt, I had not seen. Whereas like Romeo speaks in this sort of like poetic way, and everyone else is living in this kind of grounded, gritty, dirtier, uh like just text. That struck me in a way that it hadn't before. And that again is like a testament to all of you guys, and yeah, it's just it's so it's so great.

[24:30] Gabby Beans: I I want to ask you maybe a left field question, but I think you're gonna understand where I'm coming from on this. Having Kit and Rachel in the show, right now, you have a proximity to maybe the word is fame, maybe the word is celebrity is the word I'm looking for. Um and I I would love to hear you talk about what you've observed or learned about how that piece of what it is that we do, because it is a piece of of the industry that we're in, how that does or doesn't relate to the work that we do. Um and just maybe your perspective on fame and celebrity and how this has sort of affected your view of all that.

[25:19] Gabby Beans: Well, I mean, I think that at its core, Romeo and Juliet is a story about two really extraordinarily feeling people finding each other, and so they are both really well cast because both of them are kind of wise beyond their years, preternaturally talented, and finding themselves in a sort of place in society that's pedestalizing and uplifting. Yeah. Um, but maybe maybe I I can't speak on their experience, but that comes with its own challenges, right? And so I think that Sam did a really once again, he's really smart at casting, and so he cast people who have so much of the qualities of these characters just out the gate from by virtue of who they are. Right.

[26:29] Gabby Beans: And along with that, I think, like, what do I think about fame? I think that in the best case scenario, fame is an embarrassing byproduct of talent and hard work. Amen. And I think that is true for our leads. Both of them, you know, when I I had no idea like what it was gonna be like to meet them. Um I had only optimistic hopes for it. Both of them worked so hard in rehearsal, came so prepared, clearly were really, really committed to telling this story with all of themselves. And I think that that's that's all there is to say about that is that um they didn't they are two really, really talented performers and luckily very, very sweet people. Yeah, and um, and I think that it's been really like I've learned a lot from both of them about what it means to be a public person. Right.

[27:36] Gabby Beans: Um I'm not a public person in the way that they are, and I am constantly impressed with the level of grace, generosity, and capacity that you think that they they have for the people who support them and the people who are on you know excited to meet them and excited to see them. They have so much capacity and space to offer that to people, and I think that's really cool to see, and it's a reminder in my own life in whatever ways that I have to show up as as a public person to lead from generosity and lead from um just a really grounded and compassionate way of being yeah so you know they're much younger than me but I've learned a lot from them in that respect.

[28:29] Gabby Beans: Yeah I think that's really well said and I actually hadn't thought about the fact that their roles in the show are somewhat mirroring of of their sort of public presence in the sense that they are these two characters sort of put on a pedestal for everybody to see um and observe um that's really yeah that's really astute I actually hadn't I hadn't thought about that I yeah and obviously there are a very few number of people that are as public as as them in terms of their their figures but you are a Tony nominee um and you are a part of this community in this industry in a really real way um and I know that you were a fan um of Broadway for a very long time and that you came to the city and were seeing shows can you talk to me about what's been surprising about joining the community um and maybe what you've learned about like which parts of it really do we talked about it a little bit but what parts of it really do light you up the most.

[28:29] Gabby Beans: Yeah I mean it is like literally I am living my dreams so there's that I I came here I I mean I remember as a kid walking past the wicked theater yeah and being like we're I mean you're still there it's still Midtown is amazing, you know what I mean? And like to be right next to that theater and be doing a show is like pinch me every every single day. Um you know my first Broadway experience was at Lincoln Center, and that's a different, it's still, you know, obviously an incredible Broadway experience, but it's it's a bit different than the midtown more commercial theater uh experience. So this feels like a sort of a reintroduction to Broadway in a more kind of like what feels like a conventional sense.

[30:17] Gabby Beans: And when I was really young and I wanted to like, and I started becoming acquainted with the idea of becoming an actor, the thing that made me excited was feeling as though I was able to that people would be able to see what was in my head. When I was thinking about a character or we or working on a character that that what that I that I'd be able that I'd get to a skill level where the ideas would be legible. And over the course of my career, that started to happen more and more. And I'm still feel like I'm very much at the beginning of my career and like still very much a student, and I and every job I take, I feel like I'm both re-learning how to act and also reminding myself that like, oh, I actually kind of know how to do this.

[31:13] Gabby Beans: Yo, but that's the best, but that's the best, right? Is is you when you get to have the both when you're like, I am an active student, I am learning, and also like I can I could I could do this. Yeah, like you you do get to a point where you're like, okay, there are there are some like I actually know how to approach the work. Maybe that's what it is. So that's what lights me up is that I you know, there's this Ira Glass quote that I really like where he talks about, you know, how your taste is what begins you to become an artist. And so I'm always thinking about like I just hope that my work can be at the level of my taste. Right. Not that I have great taste. I'm not saying I have great taste, but I like my taste and I want to make work like what inspires me, right? Yes.

[31:56] Gabby Beans: So I think like as I work more and more, I get closer to doing the type of stuff that I would like to think. Yeah. And and I feel really excited by work that I feel inspired by, right? Because then when I feel inspired, I feel that that is a golden thread that's leading me towards inhabiting an energy that feels exciting. And so that's that's kind of what keeps me coming back for more.

[32:28] Matt Rodin: Yeah, yeah. I mean, that makes so much sense. I Gabby, I I'm so you're right. Like, this is the beginning of your career, which is, you know, which is a it's cool. It's it's cool to be one of the things I feel when I go see theater, especially theater that involves young people, um, is that we are we are at the beginning, even though I mean I'm 32, but it still feels like this is the very, very tip of the iceberg. And um, and to be able to think that this is the first of hopefully more conversations that we'll get to have over the course of however many years, that to me is is is the reason like is one of the things that lights me up the most about being here in the city and getting to see work is because not only are you watching you're getting to observe theater and be critical and and you know be washed over by an experience, but you're also watching the artists grow.

[33:26] Matt Rodin: I think I think the Dalai Lama said something like, you know, what moves us about art isn't necessarily the context but you're but it's watching the artist be transformed with within it you're you're when you look at a painting you see how that how it impacted the artist you're watching the artist grow and that is so visceral in the work that we do because it's a human being living in real time on stage and you're watching even if you go to see someone from the beginning at the beginning of a run and then the end of a run it's gonna be vastly different. And that's all to say that I'm I'm really grateful that I got to talk to you and have this mo that we got to have this moment. Now and yeah I'm just excited for you. I'm really really excited for you and yeah thank you.

[34:20] Gabby Beans: This this really has been wonderful. Thank you.

[34:23] Gabby Beans: No this is I I really appreciate this time and the questions that you asked were really inspiring and like this has been awesome. It's really huge pleasure. So thank you.