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[0:00] Matt Rodin: Hey, thanks for hitting play, and welcome to The Come Up. Before we start today's episode, I want to be up front in telling you that in this conversation, we touch on some pretty intense topics that people might be sensitive to. This includes self-harm, war, suicidal ideation, and severe depression. This episode is a conversation with Harry Turner, who you might know or recognize from the documentary Wildcat that's currently streaming on Amazon. It is a beautiful and heartbreaking film that I was so moved by. I reached out to Harry and asked if he was willing to record a conversation where we could talk about the process of making the film, the relationship between us humans and nature, and his experience navigating his own mental health in the middle of the rainforest.

Harry's story is inspiring. And if you haven't watched the movie yet, I would highly encourage you to do so before listening to this conversation, as my hope is that this can serve as a companion to the film, in which you can learn more about Harry, what it took to create this movie, and the work that he and his now fiancée have started doing at their nonprofit organization called Emerald Arch. If you want to learn even more, you can visit EmeraldArch.org, or there'll be a link in the description of this episode. I am so deeply thankful that Harry was willing to sit down with me and have this incredibly open, honest, heartfelt conversation, which kicks off with me asking Harry about how he ended up in Seattle, Washington, which is where he was when we spoke in mid-February 2023. Thanks again for being here. And enjoy this conversation with Harry Turner.

[1:54] Harry Turner: Is she from Seattle? Is that like how you ended up there?

[1:56] Harry Turner: I met her in the jungle, but it just turned out that she was from Seattle. And then we decided to start Emerald Arch because we have the same passions, we have the same loves. Um, you know, I when I go on night walks in the jungle, I usually go out, you know, just by myself, but I actually found someone who can spot things that I can't spot, you know. It's like I get told all the time when I'm like guiding people or when I'm doing things like how the hell did you see that? Like I have no idea. Like you saw the smallest of insect on the, you know, biggest backdrop of greenery I've ever seen. Yeah, and um, and then I go out with Lexi and I do the same thing. I'm like, bloody hell, I don't know how you saw that. That's incredible.

[2:39] Harry Turner: No, that I mean I think that's uh that's universal in the sense that they should your partner should be able to see things that you can't see, you know. You should be like fill fill in each other's gaps as it were. In the film, obviously you see some quite tragic stuff, and after some of them tragic things, it was like I never thought I could love again. And it was a real surreal feeling to really open up to someone else again because um obviously Keanu comes about and I think holy crap, like this is it, you know, this is just incredible and beautiful, and and and this is like me healing, because I was in a bad place, you know, like yeah, it was bad, it was dark. Yeah, and so Keanu helped me heal and and Lexi's helped me heal as well.

I mean, opening your heart up to another person or really anything, I mean, is it's just vulnerable. Like you're you're you're you're you're exposing yourself to being let down. You know, that's what you're you're you're basically asking for it, you know, in some sense because the only way it can end is there's only really two ways that it can end it can end in there's there's a split or one of the people passes you know that's that's sort of the inevitable end of this like investment of love so yeah it is it's vulnerable and and I don't think it's surprising that you know after all all the stuff that you know you went through that that you'd be more guarded and just more like you know I don't know about fearful but you know not really open to the idea of opening up because it's yeah it's hard I wouldn't say it's fear either I think it's just up put up so many walls that it's hard to break them down.

[4:28] Harry Turner: You know it's uh it's just one of them things which I'm working on personally you know since the film ended because filming ended in 2020. Um I released Keanu at the end of 2019.

[4:41] Harry Turner: Okay. I went on to um basically go to Ecuador and I spent basically the whole of COVID in the jungle which was incredible because I just I was so tired of it. I just wanted to escape. I just wanted to kind of like get out of this you know and the pandemic was just us was just the world telling us like you need to slow down a stop yeah yeah like you are destroying this planet at a rate that we can't keep up with.

[5:13] Harry Turner: Yep. It's not sustainable. This is this is your time to really kick back and just like shove us who's boss right. Because at the end of the day, like we as humans are just another thing on this planet. We share it with everything else. We are not superior in the slightest. Yes, we may have like iPhones and we may have tablets and we may have all these things, but at the end of the day, like No, the planet's gonna be fine. We're the ones that are gonna be gone. The planet will be here.

[5:41] Harry Turner: Exactly. Exactly. But it's like we're not superior. No. Like there's there's fungus which is clever than us, you know. It it's like and we don't even associate that with anything to do with our intelligence. It's just it's just one of these crazy things. And I think one of the most like humbling experiences of being in the jungle was just knowing that I am not superior. I am equal to absolutely everything in this world.

[6:09] Harry Turner: Right. And even animals have bad days. Even plants have bad days, you know, like it I'm not different to I'm no different to anything else on this planet, honestly. And I think that when you spend a lot of time in the jungle and you really you really feel that um that kind of wave kind of come over you, it's like it's a very beautiful and nice thing.

[6:36] Matt Rodin: Yeah, ni I mean, nature I feel like has uh has an ability to do that that r really can't really think of another thing that that that can convey or um conjure that sense that we're not superior, or that or I guess as an individual, you're like, I'm not better than anything. I am actually a small piece in this giant sort of thing that's happening around me.

[7:06] Matt Rodin: Um, and especially in a place, you know, like the jungle where it's y there's real risk involved, you know, there's there's real there's real threat. There's a sense that you're like, no, that I'm not in I'm not in charge, I'm not running the show. And I think that's uh powerful, you know, and it's helpful. I mean, maybe, you know, like maybe a psychedelic can do that to you, but I don't know, I'm not really sure if even that can give you the same sense that that being present and alive in a natural setting can like really wake you up real quick.

[7:39] Harry Turner: So I mean I can't believe we spent the whole pandemic in that.

[7:45] Harry Turner: Yeah, I you know, I and for the past seven years I've been living in the rainforest.

[7:49] Harry Turner: Right. Um and it it definitely just makes you feel more alive. It it um it makes you understand what your kind of what your talents are and what your gifts are, you know, because you can go to you can go to a cafe or you can walk down the high street and you can, you know, do all the whatever you want to do during a day, but you're not put in a position where you can be like, oh, this is what I'm truly gifted at, or this is what I'm truly talented at.

[8:20] Harry Turner: And I think that when you're in a setting where you feel so um comfortable and where you feel so okay with yourself, that's when you truly understand you can really fine-tune them details of your own personal self as well.

[8:34] Harry Turner: Uh, yeah. I spend a lot of time alone, and in them times of alone, I realize that I enjoy being alone. I enjoy being out of contact, I enjoy holding and filming, you know, with camera equipment. I I have like an eye for specific things, I know what's gonna happen next. I have this like infinitive love for animals. And when you're in like a an area like that, you can kind of if you have a love for animals and you have an understanding of behavior and you have a camera, I mean the two line up, you know, and yeah.

[9:17] Harry Turner: Imagine C from Wildcat, it's like 75% of that, you know, I filmed.

[9:21] Matt Rodin: Yeah, that's what I want to talk about this because that was the piece that I it it isn't really it's not clear in the sense that like other than the credits at the end that you know you're sort of credited as a field producer and it I was like And a main cinematographer and that was it like I'm like wait a second that that feels like it's so minimal in the sense of like the scope of what you were doing in terms of like This is what the building of strings like I know but like you're not only having an experience of what's happening like in real time in real life, but you're also having to capture it in a way that like is not just a crappy iPhone video, like you're actually having to like really capture it and make sure that the exposure is right and you know, like it there's a lot of pieces and parts that go into that.

[10:11] Matt Rodin: Were you do were you interested in filming stuff before all this had happened? Like before you went into the jungle, were you a camera person before that?

[10:20] Harry Turner: You know, I think for my uh or it was like my 11th or 12th birthday, I got like a a camera and I was like taking photos and you know, real tragic photos like the white balance was out.

[10:35] Harry Turner: Yeah, and it was awful. Um and then I started skateboarding, you know, around that time. And my dad got me a kind of like little handy cam.

[10:44] Harry Turner: And I was kinda it it had like the little mini kind of like tape that you put into it and I was I was filming with my friends the mini tape. And I I remember just being like, I I enjoy skateboarding, but my mates are way better at skateboarding. So I'm gonna film them because that's what I'm better at doing.

[11:05] Harry Turner: And I always remember being like, you know, I enjoy this but like don't see a career in it. You know, I don't want to go to school and and learn about this sort of stuff because it's not that high up on my passion. You know, I've always loved reptiles and amphibians. I've always love animals. Like that was way high up there. But at the end of the day like I I don't fit into the norm of society, right? I don't go to school and learn like every other kid or you know 75% of kids.

[11:35] Harry Turner: Yeah. I can't sit in a classroom. I fidget about I twiddle my thumbs I get in major trouble and that wasn't that was it. So I was like I'm not going to college. I'm not going to university like that's that's just out for me. And that's why I joined the military.

[11:50] Harry Turner: Uh because I didn't have any other options really. I didn't want to do a nine to five because I really couldn't. I needed to earn money and I needed a place to live. And so I just thought you know my dad was in the Navy my granddad was in the fire service my great uncles were the were in the army. It's like a kind I've come from like a military or regimented background and that's kind of where like everything kind of like fit into place.

[12:19] Harry Turner: And I remember my dad coming in and into my room and saying, Right, you're 18 soon, you're gonna have to start paying rent, you're gonna have to start doing this. Like, what's the plan? And there's me, I'm like seven, I just turned 17, I'm smoking weed, I'm skateboarding, I'm you know, getting into all sorts of parties and trouble. And he's like, join the navy, and I'm like, nah, I'm not quitting the navy.

[12:42] Harry Turner: Like, and he's like, Why? And I'm like, I can't be locked up on a submarine with a bunch of guys for that long, like that's just not me. And he's like, Oh yeah, I get it. Like, it was hard. Like, I completely get it. And then I just spoke to my mum and I was like, I don't my dad was like trying to talk to me about the navy, and she was like, We don't have to, like, you can join like any sort of military, the you know, Air Force or the Army or the Marines, and I was like, I was like, uh, okay, kind of thought about it and I thought I love running, I'm good at running. I am pretty good at like being in charge. I was like, I'll just sign up for the army and see what I'm gonna do.

[13:22] Harry Turner: Yeah, why not? Yeah, running and being in charge. You could be in the you could be in in the army, why not? These are the literally the two things I had in my mind. And so I go from skating and smoking weed and you know doing a bunch of stuff I should not really be doing at that age, and then joining the military, and I did all my training, I joined the army two days after my 18th birthday.

[13:48] Harry Turner: Holy shit. So on the 4th of September. I then did six months of training in ITC Catarick, which is in like North Yorkshire of England, freezing cold place, absolute pure misery, hated it. And then two weeks after I I, you know, passed, I was in Afghanistan.

[14:10] Harry Turner: And then in the film you see me, and like I've got no tattoo, I got like a few tattoos, well, but like no tattoos, and I've got this crap haircut. I had an awful haircut because some Afghan decided that he wanted to come and cut my hair, and I was like, hey, why not? And he gave me some weird ear massage as well. Never had it before. Amazing.

[14:35] Harry Turner: Like super incredible.

[14:38] Harry Turner: But got my hair cut like three hours before that interview with the BBC.

[14:42] Harry Turner: Mm-hmm.

[14:43] Harry Turner: And I'm there and I just remember like being in that situation, and they were making me go through and like clean out my rifle and do a bunch of stuff, and none of that was used in the footage, you know, and none of that was used on television or even in the documentary.

[14:59] Harry Turner: And then I just I just look back at that bit of footage and I just think, what the hell, man? I look about 12 years old. Like this is just ridiculous. Like I should not be at war.

[15:11] Matt Rodin: Yeah, you look like a kid.

[15:12] Harry Turner: I mean, you are a kid. And you know, five days after I was at my battalion, like in my forward operating base, I saw a guy get shot in the head, and I'll always remember that because I just remember thinking this isn't a joke anymore.

[15:32] Matt Rodin: Right, it gets real real fast.

[15:35] Harry Turner: Yeah, within a split second, it got super real. And I just remember thinking, like, man, I have taken everything for granted. In my whole life. I've taken absolutely everything for granted. I've taken the love and kindness of my family for granted. I've taken the fact that I've had clothes on my back, food in the fridge, roof over my head for granted. As soon as you see someone die, like I've I saw people die before that, but it was, you know, car accidents and, you know, the unfortunate normal. But when you see something like that, that turns you, you know big time.

[16:20] Matt Rodin: Yeah.

[16:22] Harry Turner: But a big thing I get asked is do you regret joining the military? And I guess if I didn't join the military, I would never have struggled with PTSD. If I'd never struggled with PTSD, I would never have found my way in the jungle. If I'd have never found my way in the jungle, I'd never found these cats. And if I'd have never found these cats, then I would never have been able to have made a documentary and gone from there, you know. I mean it all happens, of course, for a reason.

[16:54] Matt Rodin: At what point did you know that you were making a documentary when you went to the jungle, or were you like, I'm just gonna film and see what happens? Or were you going with an intention of, oh, we're gonna make I'm gonna tell a story or at least capture what is happening to me?

[17:15] Harry Turner: I went to the jungle to kill myself.

[17:17] Matt Rodin: Right.

[17:18] Harry Turner: And I went there to commit suicide so that my little brother didn't have to see his older brother dead. Even though I was in a really dark place, I was still conscious of what people would feel around me. And I know that a lot of people who are having suicidal ideations, they don't take that into consideration. So I went to the jungle to kill myself, and I was there volunteering with a group called Fauna Forever. And I think it was about day 14. I was just I went fishing. I went fishing with a group of Peruvian guys because we went to go catch dinner. And I'm on the boat back, and the sun is going down and the birds are changing with the bats, and it's just this like beautiful moment. I've never felt like anything like that, honestly, where I had I was saying to myself, like I'm gonna kill myself today.

I'm gonna kill myself today, I'm gonna kill myself today. And then this day I woke up saying I'm gonna kill myself today. And on that boat journey back, I just remember thinking, why do you want to kill yourself? This is like this is what you're meant to do. This is what you're here for. Now I'm not religious or anything like that. But I believe in that moment I became somewhat spiritual.

[18:45] Matt Rodin: Yeah.

[18:46] Harry Turner: Because I was like, something has like come over me, and I'm like changing. And it's the jungle. It isn't a higher person or a higher being, it's your environment, you know. It's an incredible theme in it, and like I don't know, when you watch something like Avatar, they don't capture it properly, but they capture it well because everything is connected, everything is together, and you know, I'm not saying that when you die you go to heaven, or when you die, you know, but when you die you become back part of this earth.

[19:20] Matt Rodin: Right.

[19:20] Harry Turner: And I don't know if there's a soul or I don't know if there's a spirit, but there could potentially be something that keeps you around. So anyway, I go back home after that experience. I get a job working on a farm. I hate it.

[19:37] Matt Rodin: Um how long were you there for, by the way?

[19:41] Harry Turner: I was in the Peruvian Amazon for one month at that time.

[19:44] Matt Rodin: Okay.

[19:44] Harry Turner: So after about half my time there is when I really realized, and then the rest of the two weeks, holy crap, man. I just was out every single day, singing, dancing, like I didn't even do ayahuasca at that point, but it felt like I had done something.

[20:02] Matt Rodin: Yeah, right.

[20:03] Harry Turner: And so I go back home to England, everyone's talking about my trip. How was it? I show them like this is my first venomous snake that I found, this is the first Cayman that I caught, you know. This was the macaws. I went swimming in this river, I caught this fish for dinner. You know, like on the first night there, I went out with like two people, and this huge beetle the size of a dinner plate just landed on my friend's back and was like digging into his back, and I was, you know, it's caught a Harlequin beetle. Incredible, incredible insect. And all of these things I was just reeling off story after story after story. Holy crap, like this must have been some awesome trip, you know. And then after about two months, the stories weren't flowing, and I wasn't excited.

I had no adrenaline. I went I think the only bit of adrenaline I had was when I went to a concert called Sonosphere and I saw Metallica play, and I had it was the first time I saw Metallica play, and I just remember standing at the front of this stand for about 10 hours. I had I think I peed in about three bottles, I ate about four vegan burritos, and I just got sunburnt as shit. But I was waiting for Metallica to play, and I was waiting at the very front. And that was like, yeah, like I feel alive again, you know. The sun's on me, I'm listening to the live music, love Metallica. And then after that, it was just back to the same. I had I got a job in a factory. I was working nights just so that I could pay my way. I was depressed as hell. And I just said, you know what? I'm not doing this anymore.

[21:30] Matt Rodin: Yeah.

[21:30] Harry Turner: I got a job in a kitchen. I said I'm gonna work here for about three months and just save every penny I got. I sold my car, I sold my TV, I sold my shoes, I sold everything. I sold absolutely everything I could, and I had a few thousand pounds in my bank and flew back to Peru with the idea of helping out with another organization called Ark Amazon. And then when I got to Ark Amazon, I stayed there for about six months and I was doing all these things, and then from there on is where I met the other person which is in the documentary, Sam. And from there on we started working together. I started doing camera trap work with her. And then that's when Keanu came. Sorry, that's when Khan came about.

[22:34] Matt Rodin: Yeah.

[22:34] Harry Turner: And you're filming at this point. You're and you guys.

[22:38] Matt Rodin: I was filming some bits, yeah.

[22:39] Harry Turner: Okay, and so Khan came about, and I thought, I'm 21, 22 years old. I have a shitty little Samsung Galaxy S5 or something like that, but it's got a camera on it, so I started filming. And then I got a Sony handy cam, and I'm thinking I'm filming this because I wasn't even thinking about a documentary, right? I wanted these memories because I'm still because I'm this guy who has been severely depressed, who has gone through some stuff in his life which I don't wish upon anybody. And I'm walking barefoot in the jungle with an ocelot. Like I'm gonna film the hell out of this because this is incredible. And I film stuff that people have never filmed in their life, like an ocelot killing a caiman, or like an ocelot playing with coral snakes, or the relationship the ocelots have with armadillos.

Nobody speaks about this. But an ocelot uses the armadillo holes to catch rodents, and the armadillos appreciate that because they don't want rodents in their holes. And so when they come out on either end of the hole, they're just mates. They play with each other. I've seen ocelots and armadillos roll about playing with each other. Never ever seen anyone document that.

[23:56] Matt Rodin: No.

[23:56] Harry Turner: So I'm thinking I'm like 22 years old and I'm documenting all of this crazy stuff, and I'm thinking, Oh man, this is just like I feel alive. I feel this is a dream. Of course I've got bad days, of course I'm struggling occasionally, but I'm sick, I'm living alone, I'm tired because I'm out all night, and then during the day I've got to do stuff like wash my clothes and cook for myself and check the boat and clean and charge my batteries and back up stuff onto my laptop, which in the end of the it was completely full of fungus, like my laptop with like humidity and everything just ruins every everything in the jungle. Ugh. So I'm doing all these things, I'm tired, I'm sick. And then he's getting to an age where I'm like, right, this is it, you know, he's stuck, he's gonna start going off by himself, and then obviously shit hits the fan.

Which I did not see coming, by the way. I don't know why the camera was in my hand at that time. I don't know why I was filming. I don't know why I filmed my, you know, because in the film you only see like three minutes. I filmed like 12 hours worth of footage of that day.

[25:17] Matt Rodin: Oh my god.

[25:20] Harry Turner: Don't know why. But if I hadn't filmed it, there would be no documentary. Because there's no for me personally, I'm not gonna recreate anything. I'm gonna film what's natural, I'm gonna film on what is real and honest in that moment.

[25:37] Matt Rodin: Yeah.

[25:39] Harry Turner: And yeah, just that was crazy, you know, and I and I didn't know what to do myself. I was in the worst depression of my life, you know. Just I flew to Australia, went and met up with a few mates, caught some of the most venomous snakes in the world. Still wasn't I was feeling some adrenaline, but wasn't feeling it.

[26:01] Matt Rodin: Had you stopped filming at this point because you were like, I don't even were you like I don't even want to touch a camera, like I'm I don't even need to do that anymore, or were you still capturing stuff?

[26:11] Harry Turner: I was I was photographing a few animals, but I wasn't filming anything. I filmed like some stuff on my phone, but that was about it. It wasn't and I I was in a real bad place.

[26:23] Matt Rodin: Yeah.

[26:25] Harry Turner: But there was something deep down in me that was like, you you are you aren't finished yet. You need to go back to the jungle and you need to finish what you started. So I did six months in Australia. And then I went home. My mum had just had an operation. So I went back to England for about two weeks just to see how she was because I didn't know what was going on, and I just knew that she was kind of sick. And then I just about three days before just booked a flight back to the jungle. I was like, I need to go back.

[27:03] Matt Rodin: Mm-hmm.

[27:05] Harry Turner: And I spent about five months there. And at this time, this was 200 and 18. At this time you could get a visa for Peru for six months. They've changed the law now, it's only three months, but at this point you could get a visa of six months as a tourist. So I went in on my six-month visa. And I got to my five and a half month point and was like, I'm gonna have to leave soon. And then Keanu came about, and I'm like, here we go. Another two years. So I just stayed illegal in Peru for two years.

[27:44] Matt Rodin: Wow.

[27:45] Harry Turner: Because I wasn't allowed to leave because if I left, I wasn't allowed back for another six months. And they weren't tracking you down in the middle of the jungle.

[27:52] Matt Rodin: Nah, as long as you pay your fine when you leave, there's no issue.

[27:57] Harry Turner: So yeah, I just stayed there and Keanu was like my he was my light at the end of the tunnel.

[28:07] Matt Rodin: Yeah, and you and you were filming again. I mean you started shoot I mean, I imagine you when he comes in, you're like, okay, we got I gotta start filming again.

[28:14] Harry Turner: Picked up the camera instantly.

[28:16] Matt Rodin: Yeah.

[28:16] Harry Turner: Now, just before this, this was at about the five-month point of my visa before Keanu came in. I was talking to the filmmakers. And Trevor had come down to do a National Geographic assignment on Anacondas, and he had no luck. And one of our mutual friends, Paul Rosalie, was like, hey, like, I can't remember, I was in town for like a day or something. I had to collect some food and whatnot, and I come back and he comes over to me and he goes, by the way, like our mutual friend has said that you've got a pretty cool story. I'd love to hear more about it. And I'm like, Yeah, okay, whatever, and just walk off. Like I'm like, fuck this guy, I don't want to speak to him. Don't know who he is, trying to get hold of my story, like whatever.

Anyway, he comes back again. I'm like, dude, this this guy's persistent, like he keeps like pissed through me. Then I look on Instagram and he's got like four hundred thousand followers. I'm just like, oh sh oh shit. I'm like, who the hell is this dude? Like, why does he care? And he goes, Do you mind just showing me some footage? I'd just love to take a look. And I show him like seven clips, and he's like, Damn. I don't know anyone who's just filmed because they wanted to film and they captured this stuff.

[29:39] Harry Turner: This is gold. Like, there's a film here. So I start talking and I'm like, okay, maybe I'll give you a chance, you know. Sign a contract to make a small, like a short documentary on card. Then Keanu comes into it. And so he flies down with a Canon 5D mark for all the different audio systems. I've got a Sony handicam, bunch of batteries, solar power. Like flies down and basically like gives me the stuff I need to film, and that's when the 4K starts kicking in, you know. I've got all the hard drives I need. I'm filming whatever I want, when I want, how I want. And they and he gave you that freedom. He was like, just film, just shoot. Kind of, kinda, but at the end of the day, they couldn't tell me what to do because they weren't there.

So they weren't there to film. And when they were, they're only there for maybe a week, ten days. But they weren't with protocol, they weren't allowed to come near the ocelot. Because with Keanu, he needs to be scared of humans, but yeah, I'm a human. So if I bring him into like a group of humans, and then later on down the line, he bumps into a bunch of loggers, he's gonna get killed. So I needed to keep human separate. And that was hard. But the way we did it is that I just filmed and filmed and filmed and filmed. Yeah. And I collected a lot of footage between us. We got over a thousand hours of footage. I was gonna say, I bet it was like over a thousand. It's a lot. And to go down over a thousand hours of footage and make an hour and forty-six minute documentary is there's a lot of stuff you miss, you know.

I've got so much footage, so much footage on hard drives that will never probably ever get seen. Yeah, you know. Yeah, Keanu was an incredible experience, honestly, and oh man, just one of them things where it's like you'll something you'll never forget.

[31:40] Matt Rodin: Yeah, of course. I mean to be I mean, obviously capturing all that is I you're kinda caught up in it. It's just like this is what's happening. I'm just doing it. You're you're doing it as it's happening. But you know, the other piece of it is that you captured your mental state throughout the whole thing too.

[32:04] Harry Turner: Yeah. And even when it was not when it was really dark, when shit was getting really bad, the cameras were still rolling. I had to be vulnerable. And as cliche as it sounds, you have to be the change that you want to see. Hmm. If I want people to start opening up, especially guys who are struggling, because not a lot of guys do. I want people to start opening up and really talking about their deepest, deepest, darkest kind of terrors and traumas that they are struggling with in silence. I have to do it myself. Yeah. That was awful. I hated filming myself. It was oof. I love filming Keanu and Khan. Right. Hated filming myself. I just actually I was just going through my laptop. Um my laptop's dying.

It's still the one from the jungle. It's got fungus all over the screen. Like I don't know how it's still kicking. I can't have my laptop without power at the minute because it dies in like ten minutes. But I was just going through some footage and I found one where I'm talking to the camera and I'm like, I don't like doing this shit. I would rather film Keanu and talk about the problems that I've got. But you know, Trevor and Melissa have told me to try and do more video diaries, so here it is. And it's like a 21 minute video of me just I don't even make eye contact with computer with the camera right I'm just like looking over here and talking and looking over there and talking and I'm just like I just you know I don't want to be a part of it and it's like monotone and it's horrible and it's like not off you know it's just I say some funny stuff in here don't get me wrong because like I was alone in the jungle I've got to be a comedian right I I've got to make myself laugh somehow.

[34:01] Matt Rodin: Right exactly right gotta be entertained somehow.

[34:01] Harry Turner: Yeah there's only so much I could do with my hand. Right. But um there's just like there was nothing to do and and if you ever seen castaway I was using Wilson as my camera. I was talking to the camera as if it was my Wilson because there was times where I was alone for months at a time really yeah and I remember one day I was actually I was at the platform and I I have bad dyslexia so I was trying to read this book and I c I just couldn't read it and I thought you know what I'm gonna go make some food so I'll go and make some food and um I think I'm making some fries and like some bread just to make like something you know and then I put some music on I go to scene and my voice cracks like I'm a 12 year old boy.

I'm like damn like that hasn't happened in a while and then I remember thinking when was the last time I actually said anything. I hadn't said anything to anyone or anything for about three or four days. Because I just didn't need to. I was either reading the book or I was cooking or I was doing stuff on my computer, or I was out with Khan or Kianu, or who you know, whoever it was at that point. Yeah. And I was just like walking at night, you know, that's it. Didn't have to do anything, didn't have to say anything. Just don't even need to look at my watch to know the time because I can tell by the the sun or by the the birds which are singing, or you know, anything. Just get up, do my thing. Didn't have to do it. And so I remember just like thinking, damn, I haven't spoken to anyone for like a long time, and I haven't even said anything with my vocal cords for about four days.

[35:51] Matt Rodin: That's a long time with yourself.

[35:52] Harry Turner: That's a long time with you and your thoughts. Man. Yeah. It really is. And it's it's um it gets to you. It really does get to you.

[36:04] Matt Rodin: Of course. I mean, you you mu you must know your inner workings so clearly. Like you must know how your mind works so well because you've heard it for so long.

[36:18] Harry Turner: Yeah, you know, I do, and um it doesn't say in the film because nothing none of this happened yet, but I'm actually in therapy now. I've started therapy um at the beginning of this year, actually. Wow. And uh had you never done therapy before?

[36:34] Harry Turner: Never. Whoa. No, never done therapy. And so my therapist was like, You really know yourself very well. You just need help opening up doors that you have closed. And I've closed them for you know, good reason. Yeah, you know, and and um I'm at that point now where it's like, you know, I know when I'm getting angry, I know when I'm sick, I know when I'm tired I know when I'm all of these things but I just need that extra help to kind of like push me over the edge to to open up about it. Yeah um but yeah it's it's hard and I struggle like yesterday was a bad day for me even though yesterday I bought you know I got the keys to the house and yesterday was like Valentine's Day and all these things I had no happiness in me whatsoever.

It was like a horrible horrible feeling but like that just happens you know yeah I woke up at 4 a.m the puppy was crying so I took her out to go toilet bring her back in and I lay in bed and all I can think about is killing myself for two and a half hours. Then Lexi's alarm goes off and um she's like you alright and I'm like nah not really she's like well happy Valentine's Day and I'm like happy Valentine's Day like I had I didn't have it in me. Yeah I was just drained. Yeah and I'm doing all these things I I have a therapy session I go get the keys to the house the dog pee's all over the floor I'm like running and it's just like everything was just like wrong yesterday. Yeah and you know they they still happen and I to be honest I don't know why I was I woke up feeling that way it just happened but it doesn't last about three or four days anymore. It lasts about 12 hours, you know, and I'm trying to deal with it in the way that I do. Um, but I definitely think the jungle helped me in that aspect of healing.

[38:41] Matt Rodin: Are you gonna go back?

[38:44] Harry Turner: Yeah, so me and Lexi um started Emerald Arch, which is our non profit. And our non profit at the minute is uh we have a lot of projects in mind, but we're raising funds right now so that we can buy land in the Ecuadorian Amazon. Cool. Um Ecuador is incredible place and it needs help and I want to do what I can, you know, with our nonprofit to do what we what we can. One of the main projects I wanna focus on um is a veterans retreat. I know for myself that it took me 14 days to really realize that I needed that time. And I know that 22 veterans a day in the US alone killed themselves. Yeah. The statistics are insane. Right. And so for me personally buying land to protect, preserve and conserve is always been something I've always wanted to do.

To do it and protect not only the animals and everything around it that's doing you know community education as well. I want to bring people who are struggling to the jungle so that they can walk a mile in my shoes and they can say this is what I needed. This is a fresh page in my new chapter of my new book that I'm gonna start right now. Other things we're gonna do are gonna be continuing to do scientific research. I'm gonna continue to do photography and educational stuff. Um, we're gonna be doing like a domestic animal um kind of like program. Cool. Because a lot of the problems that we're facing is that the encroachment is such a big thing on the jungle that animals and humans are encroaching on other, you know, on natural places.

Now, if an animal isn't healthy, it has parasites, it has mange, it has you know, all these things, it's not only gonna pass it on to the other animal that has fur. So if we can help these domestic animals, we could also help the wild animals. If we can if we can educate the communities on not to kill snakes, because snakes are feared all around the world. Even in the Bible, it talks about the fear of snakes and how serpents are dangerous. If you take snakes out of the ecosystem, it it makes an issue because the population of rodents grows higher and higher, and with that population of disease grows higher and higher. Now, what people do is they kill these snakes because they're scared of them, they bring domestic cats and dogs in, they don't feed them, they starve them so that these animals will then eat the rodents.

Whereas if you just stopped it and you go back to the beginning and you say, Hey, look, education right here. This snake here is very useful. It's not venomous, it's not dangerous to you or your child or your dog. It's gonna eat the rodents which are eating your crops and which are giving you and your family diseases. You shouldn't be scared of them. And me and Lexi have been working quite hard on this in bringing snakes that we've caught at nighttime to local schools and local places and saying, Look, this snake is a seven-foot rat snake. Yeah, it's big, it's fast, and it might be scary to you guys. But here we go. I've got its head, it's calm, it's peaceful. I'm only gonna take up about an hour of its time because I don't want to put it under too much stress.

But this hour of this animal's time has has helped people understand. Oh, yeah. Like we took it to a school with twenty twenty-three kids. Uh no joke. As soon as I pulled the snake out of the bag, they all ran to the back of the classroom. One of the kids even ran out of the school. He didn't want to be anywhere near it. It took me about 35 minutes to put a bit of an educational kind of thing. It was going through my hands, it was around my neck. This is a wild snake, bearing in mind. At the end of it, I got the class to come in and to get a group photo. I then got every kid to come and just put his hand on the back end of it. Feel it. And they were like, oh wow, it's beautiful. That evening I go let it go, and one of the mums comes up to where I am and is like, um, yeah you brought a snake into the school, and I'm like, yeah, and she was like, Well, my kid does has not stopped talking about it, saying how beautiful it is and how lovely it is.

And I'm like, there we go. Yeah. Education is a huge thing. And if you can educate the kids and you can build into them the trust of of wildlife and of nature, that's it. That's the future right there.

[43:38] Matt Rodin: I imagine too, you know, that it also has mental health repercussions in a positive way. Like that, like getting people connected to nature in that way, it it's gonna make people feel a part of something bigger than themselves, which, you know, you hope is gonna help people feel less depressed and less stressed, less alone. Um, so I think it's like you know, it's more than just one thing that the education is doing for kids.

[44:06] Harry Turner: Absolutely, and you know, with our non-profit, I just I just hope that in the next few years we can really do some good. Um we're still in the we're still fundraiser. We have a plot of land in mind, but it's you know legal stuff in Ecuador and me being in the US at the minute, and you know, everything that's going on, it's it's a it's a complicated thing, but we still need to raise the money, and when we've got the money, we'll be you know buying a plot of land, and um I can't wait to take people there, can't wait to show them the beauty of the the Amazon.

[44:40] Harry Turner: A lot of people go there and they go to a tourist deep spot, right? You don't get that in-depth connection when you're surrounded by tourists, right? The wild aspect of it is key.

[44:54] Matt Rodin: Absolutely. How did you even end up there in the first place? Because I know that you were discharged, right? And then how long after that did you end up like how did you even end up in the jungle in the first place? Like what made you go do that?

[45:08] Harry Turner: I was discharged in March, and by the time I got discharged and I had my final pay, I basically just Googled volunteer work in the Amazon. Huh. And it came up with some stuff in Brazil, it came up with some stuff, you know, in other places, and they were like very expensive, and I was like free volunteer work in in the jungle. Nothing came up, and I was like, camera mule in the Amazon. Nothing came up. Like there was nothing. So I just typed in again, volunteer work in in the jungle. And then came up with this website called working abroad. And I went on to working abroad and I found this reptile and amphibian conservation program in Peru with Fauna Forever. I clicked on it, I looked at it, and I was like, you know, I need to get out of here now.

Right. Clicked on it, messaged them, and I was like, look, what is the deal with this? And they were like, oh, you can do a month long for like £1,500, and uh you'll get collected from the airport, and they will do this, and you have your food, and then you know, all you gotta do is pay for your flights on top of it. And I just thought, I'm out of the military now, I don't have a place to stay in England really. Like, I can go my parents, but at the same time, like it's you don't want that, yeah. I'm struggling, I don't want to be in that situation. Yeah, and I just I just said, you know, well, I'll just I just booked it and uh just flew out there, and that was it. I I didn't I didn't even know what language they spoke when I flew into Peru.

[46:51] Matt Rodin: Oh my god.

[46:52] Harry Turner: I didn't know what currency they had. I just had a few pounds on me and a backpack. That was it. You had no idea what was about what was coming.

[47:06] Matt Rodin: Nothing.

[47:07] Harry Turner: I got there and they were like asking me all these questions at the airport, and I'm like, I'm sorry, love, I don't know what you're saying. I should have to get someone over. What are you here for? And I'm like, oh because I landed in this tin shed, you know, like it was a tiny little airport in the jungle. Oh, I'm just volunteering. Oh, okay. What have you got with you? Have you got an nah? Just some clothes. That's it. Okay. How much money have you got on you? 20 quid. Okay. Had no I had no idea what I was doing. But I ended up ended up being the best decision I ever made.

[47:51] Matt Rodin: Yeah. I mean, and and I think. Are there other um there other veteran programs that do that kind of thing that do like j like stuff in the jungle? Because it feels like that would be such a good it it feels so right to me.

[48:06] Harry Turner: I know a lot of them do it in nature, which is US-based, Canadian-based, UK-based. I know that there are a few which have done stuff like in the jungle, but it's very hard to kind of find that. And it's very hard to kind of like research into it and and I know that it's possible, but I want it to be more of a free and flowing environment. I don't want it to be a the military is very regimented, it's very strict, it's very kind of like get up at this time, do this. I don't want that to be the case. But these are kind of military things which are being implemented into a jungle expedition. I want it to be you get up when you want. What is your interest? Do you like snakes? Do you like frogs? Do you like cats?

Do you like birds? Like insects, what do you like? And if you like that, I'm gonna make a program that suits you so that you can go out and you can say, I would love to find a rainbow bower. Okay, cool. We'll go on a walk and we'll find one. Because it's possible. You know, don't get your hopes up because you know it's not always possible to find things, but we will do our best to go and find that thing. If people want to find birds and they enjoy waking up at four o'clock in the morning, not me, but if they do Nah, yeah. They're some sort of crazy, they're birders, I know that. But if they want to go and find birds, that's fine. I know people that know everything about birds in the Ecuadorian Amazon.

And they can find them by he listening to them. And they can find them by going to the trees that they eat from, and they can find them by going at specific times. If that's something that you want to do and that's gonna help you, we will do that. And I don't want it to be a big group, I don't want it to be a group of 20 people because that's overwhelming. I want groups of five or six people to come out. If they don't feel comfortable coming out by themselves, they need they need to bring whoever's closest to them, whether it be that child, whether it be their wife or husband, whether it be you know, a family member or just a friend. Yeah, if they have that support, they are welcome because everybody needs that, you know, and they need to have that kind of like enrichment in their life where they can they can just reset, refresh, restart. Control, alt, delete, just do it all again.

[50:36] Matt Rodin: Right. I mean, it's powerful medicine, and I mean you're you're clearly the living proof of that. And that's not to say that and I think you would say that like it's not an it's not a permanent solution, you know what I mean? It's like you said, like you're still having bad days.

[50:52] Harry Turner: Absolutely. But I think doing something like that it gives you I would imagine it gives you a new sense of purpose. Um and like you said, like an outlook that it's you're not alone. Like you just feel less isolated, you're a part of something bigger. And again, like I said, I'm sure ayahuasca can do something like that too. That'll really put you through it. But the jungle itself can is is is medicine in that way.

[51:23] Harry Turner: Nature. It really is. And it's scientifically proven even if you've got plants in your house, or even if you've got a photo of trees, it can, you know, boost your energy and boost your kind of like happiness. Yeah. Let alone going out into a park with a bunch of dogs. Or let alone going out into the rainforest. Yeah. Where you have no signal, you have no way of getting out if you're hurt, like you're deep into it. And that is when I feel the most alive. Is when I know that if I get bit by a snake right here, or if a tree falls on me right here, or if I get sick, really sick, or if I break the leg, I'm dead. And that adrenaline there is just so incredible and so fun. And you know, I don't know if it's gonna be fun for everybody.

It's fun for me, right? But even just something similar to that, like going out on a boat and swimming in a river. My dad loved swimming in the river. Before he got there, he was like, Oh, I heard there's a fish that can swim up your penis, and it can like cause a bunch of issues. And I heard that there's this and there's piranhas and there's electric eels, and you know, I'm gonna get bitten by all these things and get parasites and diseases, and he was the last one out of the water just floating down the river with his, you know, GoPro, just on a selfie stick, just float in there.

[52:57] Matt Rodin: Just pass and I will say that that I I think I mean the I mean, obviously that the you know, there's so many really beautiful and moving moments in in the dark, but I think the one that both me and my fiancee were both like really struck by was like the when your family came and visited, and um just seeing their reaction to you and your environment, and I yeah, it it it it's it to be able to give that to the people that you love, it was like it was just moving to see all that that kind of unfold, especially your younger brother, because I have a younger brother too, um, to kind of see you not only give him the gift of the jungle and and you know your love of that and see how excited he was by that, but also you know, get tell him the truth about where you are and like what you're going through. It just was I imagine that was powerful for you to to sort of witness and be a part of.

[54:05] Harry Turner: It gave me the energy I needed to continue. In that moment, I was so depressed, and I was so I was struggling so much that I needed my family to come because yeah, I was about to give up. And then coming was like this kind of like highlight to me. You know, I was like, thank God. I can continue pushing now because you know, if I'm not I'm never alone. Even if I'm alone, like physically, I'm never alone because I know that they're always like rooting me on from the uh the stands, you know.

[54:43] Matt Rodin: Yeah.

[54:44] Harry Turner: Yeah, that was that was a great boost that I needed. I just have shown my brother like praying mantises and snakes and you know, all of these things, like and down, like the documentary didn't even like incorporate some of the other stuff we did. Like, we were walking down this trail. We were about an hour away from camp. My mum's got a bad belly because the bad water or whatever. So she's like lagging behind, sweating, and I'm like, Are you okay? She's like, I'll be fine, like I'll turn around soon. I'm like, okay, like we've only got like 10 minutes and we'll get to this point here and we'll turn around. And just after she says that, my dad's like with my mom and and they're walking, and they just see me run off into the jungle, and they're like, What the hell?

Like, mum's sick, she's sweating. Like, Jaden's like, where's he going? Like, what's he doing? I run off into the jungle, and I catch this like seven foot snake. It's called a yellow tail crebo, big black snake with a beautiful yellow tail. I actually just posted a video on Instagram um of that big snake with the yellow stomach and yellow tail. Uh-huh. And um I come back and my brother's like, whoa, look at the size of that. And my dad's like, holy crap, that's massive. And my mum's like sweating out, but she's like, yeah, right, it's a beautiful snake. And like we take a photo together and like, you know, it's just this incredible moment. And I just remember like my brother was ecstatic. And even though there was tiredness, we were hot and sweaty, it was like my mum was sick.

Everyone was kind of feeling a little bit exhausted. That one thing just like brought out the energy in the whole forest. And then on the way back the monkeys all came down and they were like intrigued us and eating fruits and throw it poop and you know doing what monkeys do and we saw McCaws and toucans and a bunch of little toads on the floor and you know just like so many cool things. And um yeah just that one moment you know just changed the energy. And it's and it always does that. You can be having a down day and and a yeah it doesn't matter if you're in the jungle or anywhere but you can be having a down day and there's that one thing that always highlights you and always kind of sparks you to just like have that one bit of hope. My family did that to me though.

[57:22] Matt Rodin: Yeah I mean to have that kind of support I mean I find that with friends too that like I need to have that kind of like you were saying like that cheering squad I have to have that team of people around me to reflect back to me who I really am. Because I think it's really easy in isolation to kind of lose sight and feel confusion around like what what what am I here for? What who am I? Like what do I even what do I even believe? And then to have people around you that love you that you kind of can use as a mirror, um is yeah, it's just powerful.

[58:00] Harry Turner: It's so it's so powerful. How was edit did you were you involved in editing?

[58:06] Harry Turner: Did you edit?

[58:07] Matt Rodin: No, it wasn't mattering. Because I was filming and because I was a main character, it was kind of like a biased thing where I wasn't really allowed to kinda you know, otherwise I probably would have edited out a lot of it because it's like I look weak and miserable and you know, all this, but at the end of the day, people needed to see that side of it.

[58:29] Harry Turner: Oh yeah. Um and obviously in any film and any documentary, they always kind of try and manipulate it slightly. Um that was one thing that I was worried about. Um and it, you know, it did happen. It's it's always the way. They try and make it a love story when it's not, you know. It's they try and make it something that it's not, and you know, that was, you know, super depressing, but at the same time, you know, I made a film which millions of people have seen and and it's touched a lot of p I can't tell you the amount of messages that I've received via email via Instagram by friends and family that are just thanking me for being vulnerable, thanking me for shining a light on mental health.

[59:16] Harry Turner: And it's been really interesting. I thought that, you know, there's gonna be some negativity or whatever, and there has to be. There always is gonna be, you know, people calling me all sorts of names and stuff, but at the end of the day, like I don't care about them. But what's been interesting? You're like no one can be meaner to me than I've been to myself. Uh you you are you Yeah, right. Absolutely. But a lot of people treat me as if I'm their therapist.

[59:45] Harry Turner: Huh. And they talk to me about their issues. I can't tell you the amount of three-page messages that I've got to talking to me about how like their friends have killed themselves or their family members have killed themselves, or how they used to cut themselves, or how they still do, or how they've given up on life, and how they've lost animals, and man, it gets hard. You know, I'm trying to reply to as many as I can because I want to, you know, I'm nobody at the end of the day. I'm someone that did something recorded it, that's it. I'm not gonna be like, oh, I'm not talking to you because you're not worth my time. That's bullshit, you know. It's like I want to speak to as many people as I can, I want to help as many people as I can.

If I can help ten people and then ten people want to help me and they donate to Emerald Arch. That's that, you know, like that's how it works. That's what that's what living is about. It's about meeting and people and telling your story and doing incredible things and trying to do good in this life.

[1:00:52] Yeah.

[1:00:52] Harry Turner: But it's been hard because a lot of them have been negative.

[1:00:57] Matt Rodin: And people's experiences that they're sharing with you.

[1:01:00] Harry Turner: Yeah, yeah, yeah. Absolutely. And for me to read it has been hard for me. I'm sure. Um, I told you at the beginning of the podcast about um how on like the fifth day of Afghanistan I saw someone get shot in the head. When people are talking about like family members which have shot their brains out, doesn't help, you know. Like, that's hard for me to even like read.

[1:01:24] Yep.

[1:01:24] Harry Turner: And it triggers me, and it's hard. Like, even watching the documentary, I I've had to watch it, obviously. I'm reliving trauma constantly.

[1:01:35] Yeah.

[1:01:36] Harry Turner: It's not fair, you know. It's like, now this is my time to move on. This is my time to shine. This is my time with Emerald Arch to do what I want to do in this world and to do absolutely wonderful and great things to educate people, to help people with depression, to protect wildlife. If an animal needs help, guess guess what? I'm gonna help the animal, you know.

[1:02:00] Right.

[1:02:00] Harry Turner: To just do my part. Like this is my time now, you know. And now I've learned a lot via this process. And um, you know, I'm 29, I'm 30th September. Um I'm still young, I've still got a lot of stuff that I want to do. I've still got a lot of people.

[1:02:24] We're babies.

[1:02:26] Harry Turner: We're we're still kids, you know.

[1:02:28] Absolutely.

[1:02:29] Harry Turner: Um not as not as childish as I was when I was in Afghanistan, but uh I'm still a child. I've still got so much to do, and uh I think that that drive is also gonna help me with my mental health as well. When you get when you set goals, when you have little goals and ambitions and things that you want to do with your life, that's uh that's what can push you and could do good in this world.

[1:02:55] Yeah, I mean it's what keeps it keeps you moving, you know.

[1:02:59] Matt Rodin: Because I think the stagnation and the feeling of helplessness that like that's it exacerbates, you know, whatever the depression is or whatever the pressure looks like.

[1:03:11] Harry Turner: And I know from personal experience that it's that it's like I I had a conversation, I think, yeah, with somebody who was like, Well, what are you depressed about? It's like I I can't even there's not really there's no words or language to really there's nothing specific, you know, it's a general sense of existential dread. Um that can that just kind of it's like uh it's wearing like it's like wearing sunglasses. Everything is that color, that shade.

[1:03:48] Um to have goals, to have meaning and purpose, I mean that's it's a huge, huge lift um when it comes to that kind of stuff.

[1:04:04] Matt Rodin: At least I've found. And I'm so glad that that's you know, that's been your experience too, and that you've continued to like help help people. And I I I really I can't even imagine having to set those boundaries of like I can read this, but I but I can't read too many of these today because it can get I'm sure it's overwhelming.

[1:04:26] Oh yeah, definitely.

[1:04:27] Harry Turner: And you know, when the film originally came out, uh December 30th, it was like I would guess about 600 messages in in like two days. And about 300 of them were kind of therapist. A lot of them were like, Thank you, that was what I needed today, or thank you, this was great. And some of them were like, I can't keep living, like I feel like absolute crap, but you've kind of given me hope, but you know, this happened to me, and you know, I was abused as a child, and all this happened. It's like I'm sorry, but like that ain't not no.

[1:05:06] Mm-mm.

[1:05:07] Harry Turner: I can't be that person for you.

[1:05:10] No.

[1:05:11] Matt Rodin: It's yeah, it's hard to do it. What do you do? Do you share resources with people? Like how what how do you navigate that? Do you end up do you I mean, you know what I mean? Do you have like a website that you send people to that's it?

[1:05:22] Harry Turner: It's been a different response dependent on the person, you know. I'm not just copy and pasting a kind of response. Like, I want to I want it to be personal. Um, and usually it's just like I'm really sorry you've been through what you've been through, but if there's anything that you can kind of like take away from this film, it's that there's light at the end of the tunnel, you know. Like, even when you're in the darkest of places, you have this hope. And you know, and and some of them I've like formed connections with, some of them I haven't. Um, that's just the way of the world.

[1:05:54] But some of these people who I formed connections with, like, they are good people, and they just uh screaming for help.

[1:06:03] Yeah, a lot of them being guides.

[1:06:07] Matt Rodin: Well, I I was gonna I wanted to talk about this because you said it earlier, and it's something that I have I'm really really deeply passionate about. I've been in uh I've been in a men's group for I don't even know now, six six years. Going on going on six years, right?

[1:06:29] Harry Turner: Um, and we meet once a week, and it's a space where we basically get together and hold space for each other to feel our feelings, and that's it. It's not about what happened during your week. It's not about telling the story of your life. It's about holding space for a feeling.

[1:06:52] Whatever is coming up.

[1:06:54] Harry Turner: And people in general, but especially men, we don't we aren't taught how to process feelings and emotions. It's not something that we are in fact, we're probably taught the opposite, which is to suppress and man up and figure it out. Um it ends up uh biting a lot of us in the ass no outlet, and then we end up hurting other people, or we end up hurting ourselves, and it's just been so powerful for me to you know witness and be a part of, and and I've felt the difference too, you know, in men watching men and being a man learn all this and have the space to do that because it's it's tough.

[1:07:53] Yeah, it is tough.

[1:07:56] Harry Turner: Um, and I've had some deep conversations with guys who are struggling. Ex-military, some of them, some of them, you know, have never served, but they've been through some tragic stuff in their life. And it's like I don't know why me.

[1:08:15] Maybe just watching the film has just made them once a vent.

[1:08:18] Um I've realized that oh damn, this guy was so vulnerable on camera. Like, why that's what I'm feeling. That's how I feel. I feel unheard, I feel lost, I feel, you know, worthless and weak, and I I'm not alone, you know, and and so you know, it it is hard to navigate them conversations, but at the same time, like I know that they're reaching out for a reason. It's because they have no one else that they can reach out to.

[1:08:47] So a stranger on the internet is way easier to just you know, open up to than a family friend or go or going and getting a therapist, even, you know.

[1:09:02] Yeah, that's a hard thing, you know.

[1:09:05] Harry Turner: It it took me a long time to get into that mindset that I need to speak to someone.

[1:09:11] Well, look, it took me 29 years.

[1:09:14] Matt Rodin: I mean, I I I'm so I'm I'm shocked. I mean, I'm really surprised by that, because you know, especially with something as specific, I mean, I shouldn't say specific, but something, you know, as as sort of powerful as PTSD, I'm just surprised that it took you so long to you know open open yourself up to that kind of help.

[1:09:34] Harry Turner: I I guess it's not that surprising because again, it's like men we're not we're we're really not conditioned to want to seek help and ask for help, but I'm yeah, I'm surprised.

[1:09:45] I don't think it's the fact I'm a man, I think it's the fact that I am just stubborn, and I've always done the things that I do to make me happy, like spend years in the rainforest or you know, just I always do the things that I want to do, and therapy wasn't one of them.

[1:10:07] To be honest, it it still isn't one of the things that I want to do, and the only reason I started therapy is because I didn't want this overwhelming feeling of the film to crush me and crush my relationship.

[1:10:25] And I actually started therapy because I didn't want to hurt Lexi.

[1:10:32] And so I you know, I don't enjoy therapy. I don't enjoy waking up seeing an alarm or an alert on my phone and being like, oh great, I'm gonna cry today. Like, this is really good. I'm gonna talk about how like, you know, I I've I've done some horrible shit in my life and seen some horrible stuff, and it's gonna be great, you know. I'll you know what? I might have some avocado and toast while I'm at it. It's like, no, I don't feel excited about therapy, but yeah, I've learned stuff about myself.

[1:11:04] I've learned that I have complex PTSD, not just from Afghanistan, but from Khan and from um abusive relationships and from a lot of like lies in my life, and you know, like the war-related stuff really just kind of pushed me over the edge, and I continue to be pushed over the edge from war.

[1:11:33] Should be a lore that you shouldn't go to war until you're at least 22 or 23, you know, like 18 was too young. I was so naive, but I was so young, yeah.

[1:11:47] Not good.

[1:11:49] Matt Rodin: Has it been helpful in navigating this sort of like life post the release of this film?

[1:11:56] Harry Turner: It's that it has been helpful in you know you many people might not understand what I'm saying, but I think from what you said earlier, you might. You know, when you feel so numb that you don't know what is reality and what is kind of like just a brainwave, yep, fully dissociated.

[1:12:21] Yeah, it's been um I've learned to like feel like I'll touch my arm and I'll touch my face and I'll be like, right, like I'm here, and I've learned to like I've learned to take a step back when I'm feeling that way. Because I know that I'm here and I know it's just this, my head playing with me.

[1:12:50] I've also learned about rumination, and I ruminate a lot, and it gets me into a dark place. I'll just think and think and think over and over and over and over again. I'll be laying in bed like the other day, like yesterday actually, four o'clock in the morning for two and a half hours. I thought about killing myself, and it was the same thought for two and a half hours over and over and over again.

[1:13:13] And so I've learned what that is. Previously, I thought that was normal, but I learned that rumination is just a thing about PTSD. I learned that PTSD is me and my anger from PTSD is me taking every situation as danger and as threat. Even if I'm just at the supermarket and I hear it hear a someone drop a can of soup. Even though I know it's a can of soup, even though I know that I'm in a supermarket and I'm not in a war zone. And even if I'm holding hands with my fiance, she might say something two seconds later that triggers me, and I don't know why I'm angry at her. But the reason is is because I have been taken back to a time in my brain that I didn't want to be a part of. And that's when I need to like feel myself and be like, right, no, I am here.

[1:14:06] Harry Turner: That was a noise. You need to figure it out, and you need to stop being such an ass to your fiancé because it's not her fault. She might have said something dumb, but I'm taking it way out of proportion because I'm angry at something that happened ten seconds ago. And so it's helped me realize that, um, I don't know. It's not dimensions, you know, but it feels like I'm in a different dimension when I'm in that bad space. But when I come back, I'm in this, you know, this dimension.

[1:14:42] Matt Rodin: Absolutely.

[1:14:43] Harry Turner: I totally get that. I totally, totally think that, and I think dimensions is actually a really, uh, it's a really helpful picture because it is like that. You sort of leave this plane, this reality, and you go into some other kind of reality that isn't necessarily real. It's not what's happening now. And relationships are hard, period. Like, absolutely. I mean, being your own person is hard enough, and then you add another full human being with their complexities and their whole shit into the mix. Like, that is fuck. I think that shit is insane. Like, I can't believe that we've been together for six years, me and my partner. Because it is not easy to navigate, you know. I always had this belief, and I don't know where this came from, maybe just society, that like you met a person and you got along and you liked the same things, and it was just like, oh, you're good.

Like, you just everything, it's all good. I didn't realize that it's like, no, like it's a lot more complex than that. And you have to sort of wake up every day and choose to be with that person to continue to work on not only yourself, but also like your dynamic with that other person. Um, and then you add the layer of mental health on top of that. It's, it, it's, yeah, it's, it's, it is not easy. It's, it's not easy now. But when you do find the right person, they push you to do the right things for you, you and that relationship. Without her, I probably wouldn't still never be in therapy. But because of the film and because of my relationship with her, I love her so much, you know. It's like, why would I want to jeopardize that just because I'm angry at the film?

I needed to do it, you know. And I think that since me starting therapy, she's thought about doing therapy herself. You know, because everybody has their issues and their complexities and everything like that. I think everybody can benefit. I think everybody could benefit from therapy. Everybody.

[1:17:03] Matt Rodin: I agree.

[1:17:04] Harry Turner: Um, and I wouldn't have said that six months ago.

[1:17:07] Matt Rodin: That's so interesting.

[1:17:10] Harry Turner: Yeah. I hated the thought of it. It made me sick thinking about it. Because I didn't want to talk about it. I've spent years and years digging holes to bury things. And now I'm having to take that shovel and unbury things. It's horrible.

[1:17:31] Matt Rodin: Yeah.

[1:17:32] Harry Turner: So why did I do this in the first place? Right in the road.

[1:17:38] Matt Rodin: Right.

[1:17:42] Harry Turner: But you're getting a more full picture of yourself, and by excavating those things and by actually moving through whatever those things are and talking through them, you're releasing them. You know, like it, we're not, we don't have to hang on, um, in the way that we were before because burying things from what I've learned, like, it's gonna pop up at some other point in my life, you know. It's gonna, it's gonna pop up in my relationship with my partner, with my family, with work, whatever it is, like it's gonna manifest in some other way if I don't deal with it. Um, but it's uncomfortable to have to deal with those things.

[1:18:19] Matt Rodin: Yeah.

[1:18:20] Harry Turner: It's, it is, it's, it's not easy. It's not easy, but it's for the best. I'm so glad too that you have a partner that, that like wants to go on that journey with you, because that's, um, that's been a big part for me too, is like to have somebody that's there to like just hold space and be like, I, yeah, I hear you. It's all I need. I just need someone to say I hear you, not looking for a solution. I just want to be heard. And especially after, you know, I mean, obviously, the context that I have is only from the film, and I'm almost certain that that is not the full picture of what, you know, your last relationship was. But I imagine that was again, like, talk about having to like go through the trauma again.

[1:19:08] Matt Rodin: I'm sure that was hard to have to like.

[1:19:11] Harry Turner: Yeah, that toxic part of my life, I'm so glad is over because it really was just this toxic energy that was like consuming me. And I needed to escape that. I needed to get away. And it, you know, it's just one of the things where it happened and I just have to deal with it. And that's, that's all I can do.

[1:19:38] Matt Rodin: And I imagine too, you know, I don't know, I mean, I don't know the kind of messages you've gotten, but I imagine too that people getting to witness that is probably powerful too, you know, getting to see that dynamic, I'm sure, is helpful for people.

[1:19:54] Harry Turner: I'm sure. Um, you know, all I want is this film to do good. Um, I want people to see it. A lot of them don't even know what it is. A lot of people don't know the problems that, you know, face the jungle. A lot of them don't know about, you know, how to deal with their depression, or if a partner has been in a dark place, they don't know how they feel. So this is a really good film for, I've had lots of people actually message me and say, I now understand what my husband is going through. Mmm, you've given me a better view on why he does the things he does and why he feels the way he feels and why he says the shit he says. And at the end of the day, like if this film does good and it educates people and it inspires people, and I hope it doesn't trigger people, but it's more than likely gonna trigger some people.

Then I hope that it is a reminder after they've been triggered or after they've seen all these things and that in these inspirations that you could continue going, you can keep pushing, you don't have to give up, and you can continue to support the people around you and do the things that you want to do, or you can go off and do your own thing, and it's completely fine just as long as you are not harming people around you, you are not causing problems for people around you. Everyone's unique, everyone has their own things, but as long as you are just doing your thing, but your thing doesn't affect any other person, apart from in a good positive impact, that is all that matters.

[1:21:30] Matt Rodin: Yeah, and, and, and the film is doing that. I mean, I, I, and you've clearly seen, you know. I mean, it is, it is having that kind of impact, and everyone that I've talked to about it has been so moved by it and touched by it, and, and that's why I was so excited to talk to you because I was like, I want to know how you were doing. I was like, I want to know, you know, that's, that's sort of the, that that's like the worst part of the movie is it ends and you're like, well, what's, what's now what? What's going on? Like, I want to, I, you know, I want the update, I want to know. So I, that's why I was so excited because it's, um, it's like the best kind of cliffhanger, you know, that, that it's like, and I, I think that's what's so, uh, one of the most touching parts of the movie is that, you know, there really isn't closure in the sense that like Keanu kind of just goes, he just goes and lives. Yeah, you know, we don't like, we don't really know.

[1:22:25] Harry Turner: And a lot of people have reached out and they're like, I'm so glad that your Instagram is up to date because I thought that afterwards you could have potentially killed yourself.

[1:22:34] Matt Rodin: I, of course, of course.

[1:22:36] Harry Turner: Yeah. And you know, like I went, oh my god. I went back to England and I was shoveling crap and I was just like working and doing horrible stuff. And then I went to Ecuador and I was like, here I am again. Thank God. Finding snakes, finding frogs, making friends, living a wildlife. And you know, it's, and now look at me. I have a non-profit that's buying land in Ecuador and Amazon. I'm gonna be doing great things with veterans. I'm gonna be doing great things with not just veterans, but people struggling.

[1:23:09] Matt Rodin: Yeah.

[1:23:09] Harry Turner: Um, we should definitely do like a mental health space for men. If you've got any groups of people that want to come out to the jungle for a week while and they can just live, I'd happily guide you guys. I'd happily guide you guys. I'm all about that.

[1:23:26] Matt Rodin: Yeah.

[1:23:27] Harry Turner: You will love the jungle. Um, there's so, there's so many things that there's positives, you know, and, and um, and just because that, like, I know I have, I still have bad days, but there's so many positives, and I just need to continue doing what I'm doing and, and, and keep going. And that's, that's it, you know.

[1:23:47] Matt Rodin: That, that's, yeah, man. I mean, it's like, it's like count, it's like, you know, I, one of the things that's been so powerful for me is like if in the darkness, which is, is prevalent, it's like how can I focus my attention on what I do have, you know, like you were saying earlier, like not taking for granted that I have a roof over my head, that I have clothes, that I have food in the fridge, that I have a partner and a family, and everybody and people are for, for the most part healthy and safe. And I have a dog that's loving and, you know, sweet and only wants to eat and poop and be pet. Like that's all she, that's all she needs. Um, if I can focus my attention and energy on, on the things that I do have, you know, the sun is shining. Yeah, even something as small as that, um, to me that's like the beginning. That's, that's where it, I have to start from, you know.

[1:24:42] Harry Turner: Yeah, absolutely.

[1:24:43] Matt Rodin: In the mornings. It's just like I have to start there because otherwise, like that rumination you're talking about, it, it, it beats you up.

[1:24:51] Harry Turner: Oh man. Yeah, it's horrible.

[1:24:54] Matt Rodin: It's rough.

[1:24:55] Harry Turner: But I'm so, I'm so psyched for you. I'm so, I'm so f, first of all, I'm so happy to hear that you're doing well. I'm so happy to hear that the nonprofit thing is like it's really happening, that you guys are like really fucking doing it. And of course, I'm thrilled that, you know, the film has shined a light not only on your story, but on mental health as a whole, on the planet and the jungle as a whole, and, uh, I'm sure it's giving a lot of attention to the nonprofit that you guys are doing. Like it's, it's a, it's a pipeline for that. That it's gonna continue, you know what I mean? Like it's, this thing is opening so many doors and, and I don't know if you even knew, you know, when, when you were like, okay, I guess they're gonna make something out of, out of my story, you know, what it would, what it would come out like, but it's, it's really, it's really, yeah, it's, it's a lesson, I guess, from my perspective, it's a lesson in like you just never really know.

Um, you know, all, all the har, those tough experiences that inevitably we all go through, you know, they're all, they all can be working towards something bigger that, that can help other people, you know, yeah, they put you on that path that you need to be on even in that moment if you think why is this happening to me, this is, this is the worst thing, it's, it's putting you on a path to really realize, okay, this is why that happened. Obviously in hindsight you only realize this, but in 2012 when I was in Afghanistan I wasn't thinking that this is gonna lead me to here right now. Right, I didn't care about that, I just cared about living for another day, right? So it puts you in that place.

Yes, a lot of times our, like our, I've heard that a lot of times our biggest wounds, like our biggest traumas, they end up being the thing that we can help other people with the most because we have person, we have experience. Um, and that's again hard to realize when you're in that moment, right? Like it's almost impossible when you're in that moment to be like this is gonna be useful to me someday, but it ends up being, you know, sort of the biggest gifts that you can give.

[1:25:55] Harry Turner: Exactly, and it goes back to that gifts and that talents that you have, you know, it's, it's one of the things like I want to protect the jungle and I want to go, I want to make people walk in my shoes. You know, if they're struggling and they want to experience the kind of like revelation of like going to the jungle and, and having that experience of like freedom. I want them to do that. And the only person that knows best is the people that have been through that. And I'm one of them.

[1:27:46] Matt Rodin: Yeah, and you've been through it, man. You, you, you, you've been, you've been through it and you've done it. And, um, yeah, it's so, uh, I'm so, so thankful that Amazon picked it up and that it's, and that people are seeing it because it's, it's obviously, I mean, it's a great story, but it's also beautiful. I mean, it's shot gorgeously. You guys really did some, I mean, you know, but you guys did some, I mean, it's unbelievable what you guys captured out there.

[1:28:15] Harry Turner: Thank you.

[1:28:16] Matt Rodin: Um, and, and, and the way that they edited the story too, it's, it is, I mean, I'm sure I know you, you have, you know, your thoughts and feelings on the whole thing, but in terms of a narrative piece, it really is compelling. It really is, you know, and it is making an impact. So I'm, yeah, I'm, I'm, I'm just so, I'm so glad and I'm so grateful to get to talk to you too, man.

[1:28:37] Harry Turner: Thank you, man. I appreciate that.

[1:28:43] Matt Rodin: Thanks for listening. See you next time.