This transcript was automatically generated and might contain errors.

[0:00] Matt Rodin: Hey, thanks for hitting play. Welcome to The Come Up. My name is Matt. And on this episode, a conversation with James T. Lane. Before we dive in, I think it's important for me to tell you that we do cover a few topics that people might be sensitive to, mostly centered around addiction with drugs and alcohol. James's story is compelling, and I'm gonna let him tell it. And it inspired a conversation about creating space for grace, showing up when it's hard, letting go of perfection, the divine nature of creativity, and much more. We recorded this in early February of 2023 while James was playing Billy Flynn in the Broadway revival of Chicago. And I should add, if you haven't seen this production of Chicago, which I had not, it really is musical theater gold.

There's a reason it's still running 26 years later. For context, before we hit record, James and I were talking about his time with Ain't Too Proud at the Temptations musical on the road with my dear friend Reed Campbell. I also wanted to quickly mention how excited I am that this is the 10th episode of the second season of this show. I really only plan on making eight episodes this time around, but these conversations have been filling me up in a way that I didn't expect, and I'm just thankful that I've had the opportunity to do this. And I'm grateful that I get to share stories like this one. So without further ado, here is the saintly song and dance man, James T. Lane.

[1:38] James T. Lane: But that wasn't your first time on the road.

[1:44] Oh my god.

[1:46] Yeah.

[1:47] Had you been overseas before?

[1:49] No, this was, you know, black boys from the South Philly Projects in Zurich, Switzerland in 19... then we went to Berlin, Germany, and then we were in Paris, France for a while. We were in Austria for a while. And so it was just, it was mind-blowing. And you know, I think that if given the opportunity, a young person should really travel because you do not know until you've experienced what the world is, you know, what the world can be and who you are, and you know, you're such a small little thing, you know, bright light, but small in this big, huge, gigantic, diverse world. And I began to experience all of that.

[2:39] Matt Rodin: Yeah. It's, I feel like it's necessary contrast to be able to like see the world around you and see yourself as a part of it. That feels like important, like you said, for a young person to kind of have that perspective of knowing that, you know, like you said, you are a bright light, but you're a speck in the sort of global landscape.

[3:08] James T. Lane: Yeah, one of the many lights. You know, and as a black American, a black gay American, you know, you just really, you unlearn a lot. You unlearn a lot, you appreciate more, you know. I remember, you know, those things that you hear in elementary school, it bashes a lot of the myths that we as Americans tell ourselves, you know, number one and this and that, and it's not, you know, you could be great, but there are many great and diverse things out there, and that's what I really got to participate in. You know, it's like, oh yeah, that's right. There's a whole other thing going on over here, and they're doing their thing and they're loving it just the way that we are.

[4:00] Matt Rodin: Right, right. We're just here. We're just imports for the moment.

[4:06] James T. Lane: Right, right. On, you know, Kurstenbaum in Berlin, they're living their lives too.

[4:13] Matt Rodin: Right. Wait, and what's the story? You got injured after that tour, or you're on that tour?

[4:19] James T. Lane: I came back to America and did the national tour of Fame, and that's where I got injured, yeah.

[4:28] Matt Rodin: Yeah, devastating.

[4:30] James T. Lane: Twenty-two years old, just hit my stride, you know, as a dancer particularly, you know. I mean, just when you're, you know, really cinching it in. But I, you know, I thought I was super, you know, I would warm up at like, I was like, oh, you know, I'm just a jumper jack. And then my Achilles tendon went, and I knew something had happened earlier in the week where I felt a little twinge. I thought like something's going on here, but I'll push through, I'll make it through. And then Saturday night, I went to the stage manager and I said, I don't think I should do the show Sunday. And this is in no way blaming this guy for anything, just so we're clear. Well, it was a cultural thing too at the time. I mean, we're, you know, we're just now getting to the point of like, if you're not feeling okay, you should probably call out, right? We've lived in the show must go on for eternity, basically.

[5:29] Matt Rodin: Right, right, right.

[5:30] James T. Lane: You know, and he said what he said, and I woke up the, well, basically, you know, see how you feel in the morning. And you know, I woke up in the morning and I was like, well, I feel fine. I'll go to the gym, I'll warm up, I'll do all the things, and then, you know, in my big number, it couldn't have been more dramatic. It could not have been more dramatic. The last, I do, I come, the dancers are going right and left and we're, everybody's doing their tricks, right? Everybody's doing their tricks and tricks, and Tyrone Jackson, he's the last trick, right? And I go up and I do a switch second and I go and take off and my Achilles is, and I thought the set fell behind me. That's how loud it is.

[6:04] Matt Rodin: I thought the set fell.

[6:19] James T. Lane: That's how loud the snap was in your... Yeah, it sounds like a softball hitting a glove. And I didn't even, I look behind me as I'm tumbling. Now I'm, I'm trying, this is, I'm the only one on stage 'cause everybody has done their trick and left. I'm doing my last trick and the lights go boom, boom, boom, and I'm in a spot on the ground. And I'm literally in a spot on the ground because I've fallen, and then I go into kind of a shock. And then I try to get up and then I finally put all my weight onto my left foot and go off stage left and collapse and cry. And yeah, and that's, it was a terrible way to begin a journey that has changed the course of my life for the better.

[7:18] Matt Rodin: Yeah, tell me about that.

[7:21] James T. Lane: You know, so it was like, hey, you're not Superman, right? Like things happen. That humbling that happens, yeah, right. That humbling thing, it can happen to you also, you're not made of steel. And that was in March, that was in March of 2000 when it happened, and then, you know, so I had a lot of time on my hands. And you know, I come from the inner city, South Philly, you know, drugs and drinking were, you know, around. I never gained anything like that. I think I had like a few drinks even in college before I left to go on tour, not a drinker or drug user or any type of substances, it just wasn't on my radar, yeah, at all, really. You know, I'd had a drink or something, but nothing serious.

But I had a lot of time on my hands and, you know, it was gay pride in June of 2000. And I thought, like, well, I'd never been to gay pride or anything like that. And then I was like, somebody was like, hey, you know, have you ever tried this? Ecstasy. And I was like, no, I've never had the time, frankly. And I did, and you know, that feeling of what that drug allows you to feel and turns on, I just never wanted to turn it on.

[8:37] Matt Rodin: Yeah.

[8:37] James T. Lane: It was like a relief that it was like soul relief, or like I didn't even know I was carrying the shit I was carrying, and it was gone. And I was like, ecstasy will do that too, yeah.

[8:51] Matt Rodin: Yeah, that's, you know the thing.

[8:53] James T. Lane: That is what it is. That's why it is called ecstasy.

[8:56] Matt Rodin: Right.

[8:57] James T. Lane: And I said to myself, I never want to not feel like this. You know. And like, you know, I proceeded for the next four and a half years to just dismantle everything that I had worked for up to that point. All the relationships that I built professionally, and then all the relationships that I'd built personally or grew up with, I destroyed with addiction. You know, what was first in my life, which was the arts and, you know, got me out of, you know, the projects, frankly. I was willing to throw it all away to feel that feeling all the time.

[9:41] Matt Rodin: Yeah.

[9:42] James T. Lane: And so I forfeited a life of, you know, that I had built with a lot of help. And, you know, finally in 2004, the last kind of thing to go was like, or to, you know, that was knocking on my door was like my sanity. Like I was like, not the best sick way I describe it is like, you know, being stuck on an elevator in between floors. Like you're not exactly here, but you're not exactly there.

[10:13] Matt Rodin: Yeah.

[10:14] James T. Lane: You know, and like, you know, people who knew me for years would walk right by me on the street. That hurt a lot. You know, you were like, it's me, it's James, and they're like, I don't know who you are. Because I was so unrecognizable, like in my eyes, they couldn't see me. And it was like the last stop on the train. Like you're all the way at Coney Island, and like there's this, there's nowhere else to go. There's nowhere else to go. And finally, you know, I made a decision, you know, with a lot of help, and I've been on that journey ever since.

[10:54] Matt Rodin: Did someone invite you into those rooms? Like, how did that come about?

[10:57] James T. Lane: Well, you know, I had moved to New York City and I'd had been going into places and stuff like that, but it never stuck. And then finally I went to, you know, in a crackness, there's a lot of talk about recovery. It's a lot of talk about recovery to crack out. Isn't that interesting? It's really true. Oh, you can go to this outpatient or that outpatient or this program, you know, but you know, because it's a, you know, I'm sure people, I mean, you know, and people start out as it's fun. Like it starts out as a good time.

[11:30] Matt Rodin: Of course, but it's a drag.

[11:35] James T. Lane: Like it's not fun.

[11:36] Matt Rodin: No.

[11:36] James T. Lane: And so a lot of people want to find another way, and you know, the miracle is that some of us do find it, right? And so there's somebody was talking about this place called the Wedge in Philadelphia on Broad Street, and like a time like I had called the cops on myself because I was going crazy, and they put me in like a locked ward and I got health insurance when I was there, and then somebody was talking about the Wedge, and after a particularly stressful weekend, I went to the Wedge and I had health insurance, and they let me in, and so I would go Mondays, Wednesdays, and Fridays, and then I drank and used drugs on the weekends, you know, and then finally it stuck where somebody was talking about fear and shame and guilt in the program. I didn't like shut up. Don't be talking about, I don't want to talk about the real shit. Don't I don't want, right.

[12:43] Matt Rodin: Right.

[12:43] James T. Lane: So, but it gave me permission to talk about my fear and my shame and guilt. And I didn't want to be black, I didn't want to be gay, and I definitely didn't want to be an addict.

[12:53] James T. Lane: And I started talking about those very things. And I will say this, it's not like I inherently didn't want to be those things or rejected those things inside of me. I just thought the chip on my shoulder that was released with that ecstasy was a lot about all those things in society, right? Like I think a lot of people find that the whatever the thing that you're addicted to is it isn't the problem, it's the solution. It's the solution. Right. We're using that as the solution to whatever the problem is. And then when you lose that solution, when you have to give up that solution, you have to find another one. You've got to find another. You've got to find another way. And then you know you graduate, you know, you try to find another way to rub a thing through the drugs and so of course people.

And finally you're at Coney Island. And Coney Island's a wonderful place. Yes, right. No, no, no shade to Coney Island, right? No shade to Coney Island. But the Coney Island of addiction. And um, and then finally you know, you get some help in terms of like somebody who's traveled that way out. You know, you hold onto their hand and they lead you out, you know. And um, I remember a big thing, a big thing. I was like, you know, going as I thought everybody was talking about me. Just paranoid. Like like I'm the first thing on their mind. Uh-huh. Yeah, right. Everybody's worried about you. Everybody's worried about me, talking about me. Nobody nobody is talking about you, James. Nope. Nope. Nope.

Everybody's trying to do all their own shit. No. Yeah. So he started talking about that and then um and then it allowed me to talk about those things that I had such chips on my shoulder. Because I didn't think I had a chip on my shoulder. But you know, I have a pleasant disposition. I just naturally do. That's always been it it's not a mask or anything. It's just I'm light in that way. Yeah. Um but uh but you can you can be light in that way and still have a chip on your shoulder. Or or or be sensitive about things that drive you a little mad inside. And um and I started talking about all of those things. And you know, and I still talk about those things, you know. I mean, I've been, you know, free of drugs and alcohol for over eighteen years, you know.

And uh what a miracle, truly a miracle. It's and it thank you. It just keeps getting better, thank God. It just keeps you know, getting more and more and more. I mean, you know, it's it's it's not a bed of roses, but you know, no. Yeah. Right. It's and and one of the things that I've heard a lot is that like, you know, it grows too. So there is no graduation. There is no moment where it's like, oh, I've taken the test and I'm done and I'm good to go and now I'm set. It certainly alleviates over time, but it continue you have to continue to do the work. You have to continue to speak it into like and and to say it out loud, right? We have to like free ourselves of it by saying it out loud and talking about it.

Um and allowing again for another solution to come in. Um like and you know, accepting that there's something greater at work here that is that wants you to succeed, that want that wants to love you that what you just need to be an expression of that. But that's hard. It's hard. It's hard to get back down to um like a like a big thing that I would share with the guys, the chimps on tour, is like you know, it's like when I'm going spinning, you know, I just wiggle my feet and my feet are connected to the ground. And it's just like, oh, right, I'm here right now. This is be where my feet are. Yeah, you know, like that's you know, and I am in the care. Like, like there's something greater than me that has a greater idea of what's going on in my life, you know, because I for right now, I mean, there's some things that I'm you know, I can tie my shoelaces today, but like, you know, there are bigger things that are going on, and I'm I don't have the larger picture, so I need some help.

You know, and I found I'm really curious to hear your perspective on this, like that awareness of something greater and and and allowing the grace of something other than you to be in control, which is again simple but not easy, is what they say. For people in this industry, for creative people in an industry that is so out of our control, it is so much not about us. Um that is really powerful medicine. Again, simple but not easy. But I find, and I'm still finding that like, you know, having a hand my life over is hard, but it's like every single little decision, you know, every room that you walk into, every audition that you get, like it you have to allow that grace in those spaces too. Uh-huh.

My favorite thing is when I'm going into a room or even going on to the stage, I just say, God, meet me there. Meet me there on that stage, you know. Uh just meet me there so that, you know, space for the grace, right? Yeah, you know, space for the grace, you know, because I don't know. I'm not a fortune teller. All I can do is prepare, but I want to be as open as possible for the magic that happens. Right. There, you know, and that's why I that's why preparation is so good for me. So that there's space for whatever magic to happen, to happen. You know? So but being prepared allows that. If I'm holding on to those sides in the room, there's no space to be able to do that. There's no space, right?

You know, I'm all up in that, you know. Yeah, you know, so yeah. That's yeah, that's really I haven't ever I've never thought about it in that way or heard it in that way. That the preparation is sort of like laying the foundation for that magic to play to take place. And I don't know if this is true for you, but like it feels like that's a big part of the reason why I got interested in the arts in the first place was because of the magic that I felt either witnessing something for the first time, you know, being swept away by something that I saw, or or was like, wow, this I'm a part of something bigger than myself in this particular moment, and then being in a show for the first time and feeling that feeling of like having something come over you and just getting to travel on whatever that roller coaster is and being a part of a company of people, um, or being in a room and watching magic happen in a rehearsal room, you know, that to personify that as grace or to label that as grace, you know, is to me it that feels accurate.

I I like I I identify with that. That makes a lot of sense to me, and I've never quite attached those two things. That I think that again is like why I fell in love with the arts in the first place. Mm-hmm. And you know, and if and if and if grace like hits a person like a in like a weird way, like Grace, oh no, you know, it's it could be connection or relationship, you know, like like those are really you know, words that you can personify, you know, like that that that we're all connected or we're in relationship with each other. Yeah, and um, and that relationship extends beyond us, yeah, you know, which is which is is wonderful. But discipline, you talked about discipline. Um, my friend Harris Turner, who's uh swinging MJ, he posted the other day, uh, you know, which I agree with, but like discipline.

Oh, he has a tattoo, I believe. It's like discipline is freedom, you know, which is it's which which takes it back to preparation. Because like being consistent or practicing a discipline, it allows, like in the moment, you you got it. You got it. It's it's discipline. Then this is the perfect example. Sunday matinee and Sunday evening shows, baby. I love the people that come, but like honey. Yeah, like baby. Yeah, you you really gotta just you gotta know, you gotta know every move. Baby, because and and that's where discipline and preparation comes in. Or those plies or those jumps or those scales. We tied. We tied. But if you have practice, if you have discipline, then you know it's not, you know, you will get into that plie.

You will, you know, it's like a default setting so that you can just really be present. Because, you know, you don't have that opening night thing, you know, to just keep you on your toes. Yeah, really. So it it's it's it's a real freedom to to be consistent and practice and prepared and disciplined, you know. Yeah. It it like again, I I think so much of the recovery stuff is just so helpful. And I wish, I wish every artist had to go through some form of recovery because it really is so powerful and it really contextualizes, I think, so much of what we do. And sure, I agree with you. Like, if grace is a weird word or God is a weird word, which I think a lot of people feel an aversion to, I was had a big aversion to you call it generosity, call it love.

Call it the universe. Call it the sun. You know, you call it air. Like you can literally call whatever you want. Use any name you want. But that feeling, those, those expressions of love, um, patience, works for you. Work. Whatever works, you know, that is what to me, that's what that is. Is it all it's all an expression of that that thing that we're that we're trying to get back to, right? That is like what I feel when I go see, you know, a beautiful piece of theater. I mean, I will say, like, that is what is going on at Chicago right now. It is a big old love fest in that room. We're having a good time. It it and it is, it really, and you can tell everyone's having like a really, really, really good time.

And I had never seen the production before, and I was so I we we ended up watching the movie this weekend because I was like, I love this show. The show is so good, and I think that's why the production is so good, is because it sort of gets everything out of the way. We don't need the big set pieces, we don't need the big drops and all the lighting. It is like hear the text, watch these people exist, and hear this unbelievable music, and let that just exist as it is. It doesn't need all the other stuff. Um, and again, like it, it to me, it was like you get to see the love kind of pour through the piece because there's nothing in the way, you know? Right, right, right. Absolutely. And you know, it's it's not unlike, you know, the uh Ain't Too Proud that I just came from in terms of the music.

You can't go wrong. Like it's you know the music of Ain't Too Proud was just wonderful. That that the Temptations songbook is fantastic, Motown songbook. Um, but the candor and I mean, you know, they were like disruptors in their own time in terms of like what the music is and the stories they were trying to tell. You know, they they liked stories that are a little just off or or turn the um the you know the the mirror to the audience, you know. And it was like they were doing they were uh that this play is like about that celebrity crime culture that that people love to hate to love, you know, and they lean in and and and you know, and when when it was originally produced in 1975, the musical, it was ahead of its time. And then interestingly enough in 1996, it was the start of the OJ stuff as well, you know, when when we started going back into connected those two before oh yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

[25:53] James T. Lane: It was a, I think Hoji happened a lot right before that or something like that, and then this was there, and it's kind of that celebrity crime was back in, you know, we were watching, you know, courtroom stuff, Judge Edo in the, you know, so all of that stuff was back in vogue.

[26:12] James T. Lane: And um, but back to what you said about the show and the Love Fest and like No Facade, you know, it's just about the words, it's just about the craft of musical theater, you know, and the style, you know, about Fosse's style, but also the storytelling of the vaudeville show, you know, scene show. It's just brilliant.

[26:35] James T. Lane: Oh, it's brilliant in the way that it's crafted. It's so great. It's so great. And um, you know, those folks, you know, they didn't, they were doing a um a week of encore shows.

[26:47] James T. Lane: I know the week of encourages. Yeah, I know, which is just that's I was thinking about that too. That I can't it's we I've been talking about this a lot because obviously, you know, we had Into the Woods come in and now Parade is coming in, and there is something about this particular form or this particular uh I don't know what the word is, like vehicle, the way that it's structured, that it just works, especially when I think when the piece is good enough, when the piece is strong enough that it's just about the text and the music and the story, and the rest of it falls away.

[27:32] James T. Lane: We don't need anything else. And like you said, they were just doing a week of encore production. It wasn't meant to be this like 25-year run of a musical, but right theater, you know, like it that's why a chorus line worked.

[27:50] James T. Lane: Storying, music, you know, the Scottsborough boys. We just ran around and did some chairs, you know, like, and it's just story, yeah, theater, music. You know, we love to see ourselves. Humanity loves to see ourselves. The clearer that we can see ourselves, the deeper it gets in, I believe.

[28:10] James T. Lane: You know, we like all the other stuff, but we love when we really get to the humanity of it.

[28:16] Matt Rodin: Yeah.

[28:16] James T. Lane: And that's what Chicago does. You know, that's what those great shows that um that don't have a lot of other stuff going on, what we clue into.

[28:25] James T. Lane: Um, and I love theater like that. Like I love, yeah, I love um, you know, creating in the space, like, like, and and and the audience gets to use their imagination, you know, a lot of the time.

[28:40] James T. Lane: Yeah, it's story, it's storytelling, you know, which is as old as time. Like, that's what theater is.

[28:46] Matt Rodin: Right.

[28:47] James T. Lane: Storytelling. I mean, it was I was thinking like, I cannot believe the cell block tango was ever done in another way. Like that, like to me, like that is that is what it was meant to be.

[28:58] James T. Lane: Is like these six girls just like living their lives on chairs, just like giving. Um it's it's so and you get and again, like you're just watching people like really work, right? It's like the purest form of musical theater.

[29:13] James T. Lane: It's like you're really watching. I mean, like Charlotte's Roxy monologue was transcendent.

[29:21] James T. Lane: I like I have never seen that piece done that way. And I was like, oh my, oh my god, like this is this is what this is.

[29:30] Matt Rodin: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

[29:32] James T. Lane: Yeah. I was talking to Charlotte just yesterday, and we were talking about this show being an opportunity to do craft like it was done a long time ago.

[29:43] James T. Lane: Like you, as a performer, you want shows that you know the the the um the convention of the the show is is is that, but you want to be able to really sink your teeth into something that um that is that is feels good to you and is really conveying to the audience you know who you are as well as who the character is and and and Chicago gives you that we literally backstage we were talking about craft and and and what this show gives a performer you know um as a black man you know playing Billy Flynn I'd get to do things that that I dreamed about when I was young holding the audience in the palm of my hands driving the show like like where you know it with good music and good writing all of that it's like it's like I like I get to sink my teeth into these monologues and I'm not just a I'm not just a sliver in a story I'm I'm I'm giving you a full character which is rare yeah and and it feels like and I'm I'm curious to know what you think of this like it feels like there's no excess in that show there's no there's it is it is word for word beat for beat like nothing is frills it's it is everything is very specific in the sense that like there's not one letter wasted you know it's like everything we're we're gonna like as we now say there were there are no we walked out out of there we were like there are no crumbs left they you guys are eating it up up there like love just like you know what I mean like left no crumbs truly yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah and with a good piece you can do that you know with a good piece you can really really do that you know you can you feel that I think and maybe it's just because I'm we're theater people but like as an audience member I am paying attention to that kind of thing right and let me say also it is no surprise to me why it's run for so long and has connected with such a wide audience because a piece for for a piece to run that long just for context for a piece to run that long it can't just be the New York theater going audience to come see it.

[32:14] James T. Lane: Absolutely not absolutely not it's a it's a it's tourism like that is a that is a tourist attraction but it's no surprise why it is because it really is musical theater yeah American musical theater American musical theater you know and and and that that connects that connects the world you know you can you can watch it in whatever language you come from and you're getting it yeah and that's why I and I'm and I I'm guessing why people continue to come back in terms of the actors like why some of these company members have been there almost the entire time oh yeah oh yeah I mean we've got I mean my friend Donna Marie she just left she did 20 years on Broadway but but you know Shauna Damboise was the first Roxy to take it out on the road and you know and um and she I think she's come back over 22 times over 22 times you know and um, you know, I was off and on in it in the ensemble for 10 years, you know, and then and then when I left in 2018, I said, you know, you know, I left uh my my my focus was on I need more creative responsibility.

[33:28] James T. Lane: And so I left, I left in search of what that meant to me. And um, and um, you know, and I I knew that like when I went, because it's a family, Chicago's a family, when I came back, um, if you know, if they gave me the opportunity, I'd love to come back as Billy Flynn.

[33:47] James T. Lane: And um, and that's what I that's what I said to myself and and and and to anyone who would listen. You know, that's what I said.

[33:56] Matt Rodin: And you manifested it.

[33:57] James T. Lane: That's right, baby. That's right, you know, um, a day at a time.

[34:14] Matt Rodin: Yeah, so tell me about the unfolding of all of this uh of this life that you've had.

[34:20] James T. Lane: My first Broadway show was A CHORUS LINE, played Richie in A CHORUS LINE. And um, I remember the first photo shoot of the line, you know, were actually turned like returned and sandbacks. It's red.

[34:32] James T. Lane: And I remember calling my mother from the photo shoot because I had like, you know, I'd just gotten just had a year or uh free of drugs and alcohol, and um said like a little cookie belly and a cookie butt.

[34:43] James T. Lane: And um, and I and I was with like, you know, Michael Barrett and Tyler Haynes and Tony Yasbek. I was like, you know, Broadway. I was feeling very sensitive, and I called my mother from the photo shoot in like a corner, and I was like, Mom, I'm feeling very insecure about how I look and feel.

[35:02] James T. Lane: And she said to me, Black mothers will get you together. She said, she said, Remember you were smoking that crack and you were half of yourself? Think about that.

[35:14] James T. Lane: Click click. Click, click. Got me together. Right.

[35:20] James T. Lane: Yeah, you're like, right, right, right, right, right.

[35:22] Matt Rodin: Yeah.

[35:23] James T. Lane: Yeah.

[35:23] James T. Lane: Got it. You know, so, you know, like I said, it hasn't been easy, but showing up even when it's hard.

[35:33] James T. Lane: Is has been the the thing that I've had to do consistently to get to the other side of things. You know, um, breaking up with partners, you know, um, you know, finding out what it feels like to be, you know, uh renting an apartment in New York City, you know, um, never done anything like that before.

[35:56] James T. Lane: Ha not having a Broadway show while living in New York City.

[36:00] Matt Rodin: That's I was gonna say.

[36:01] James T. Lane: Yeah, right. That's a whole feeling.

[36:03] James T. Lane: And feeling like less than who am I, who am I without a Broadway show, and coming to understand that I'm perhaps as more, you know, perhaps as more.

[36:12] James T. Lane: So I started doing all the symphony work. You know, that came out of the blue. You know, um, somebody had remembered me from Philadelphia and said, We need a song and dance guy.

[36:22] James T. Lane: And then I was working at the Indianapolis Symphony with the Pops, and that led to my debut at Carnegie Hall.

[36:28] James T. Lane: You know, so all of a sudden, you know, there was this other arm of what I do. And I know I also I come from great teachers in Philadelphia, so I always taught master classes, and then I would I started my own dance class for singers and actors that I still teach, you know.

[36:45] James T. Lane: Um, you know, um, so that feeds me in a in a very particular way, all the while doing, you know, doing my thing for, you know, to stay clear of drugs and alcohol.

[36:56] James T. Lane: But the a very significant thing was when I'm, you know, uh working over on the West End, you know, I um it was weird how it happened too, because I was on tour with Jersey Boys, and I got a call from Bayork Lee asking me to do A CHORUS LINE over on the West End.

[37:12] James T. Lane: And I was like, great. She's like, oh, I was like, when is it? And she said, Oh, it'll be starting in January of 2013. And I was like, great.

[37:19] James T. Lane: And that was like, it was like November of 2012. It was like starting like and then I got a call saying that the Scottsboro Boys was going to the West End in the same year.

[37:30] James T. Lane: And I was like, I guess I'm supposed to be over there. You know, like, and so I went over there and I was over there from 2013 um through 2015.

[37:42] James T. Lane: I came home for about five, five or six months. But um, but 2015 in February, we came home, but I got a commission from the Young Vic in London to uh start writing.

[37:54] James T. Lane: And um, so I began to write and uh had never written before. And um I was writing about this and that, and then I started writing stories about being out there and um and um you know getting the next one.

[37:59] James T. Lane: And um, you know, people you know, David Land, the artistic director at the time, you know, just was like, that's you. I don't even see that person.

[38:16] James T. Lane: And I said, Yeah, it's it's remarkable uh to me even. And um, so I just continued to write, and um, you know, after eight years, oh well, we we finally got to a production in 2021, down at Designer's American Dream Theater in Virginia Beach.

[38:37] James T. Lane: And um, it's called Triple Threat, and there is more to come about Triple Threat.

[38:43] James T. Lane: So you know, I I'm Unexpected Blessings. Unexpected blessings. Unexpected blessings, yes. Yes, very much so. And again, it sounds like it's all kind of been not unexpected, but it's been again like showing up when it's hard and just showing up. But showing up with grace and with kindness and with generosity, um and continuing to just give, you know, be prepared and allow whatever will come to come.

[39:12] James T. Lane: Yeah, doing the next right thing. Like not shying away from the the the next right thing to do, you know, and you know, sometimes that's easier than others. Definitely but but but you know, put on putting on your boots and getting out there. Yeah, you know, and and seeing what happens. And uh, you know, yesterday is funny because I I just you know, before the show, after the Sunday, it's like because we our days are off around Wednesdays. I was gonna say, so do you do five do you do five show weekends and then you do two more?

[39:44] James T. Lane: Yes. Oh my god. It's it's hard. But so so, but like um yesterday's show, I was like, ooh, I don't know, y'all. You know, like I was like, I was in that dressing room, like, okay, oof, we're gonna do this. Right. But you know, I talk about how I feel. I I get connected to some folks that love me and can encourage me, and then I let it go and just and just you know, set a course for the evening. And my course was like, have the most wonderful time. What a blessing to be doing what you love to do.

[40:19] James T. Lane: Try new things in terms of like your presence and your attitude. Don't hold back. Just have a good time. Because you have whatever you need. I have whatever I need for this evening. You know? I do. I do. You know? And let let go of the perfection. You know? Like you're not gonna sound like you did yesterday. Nobody does. Nobody. It's a new day. It's a new day. You know, so find new. Find the new. And I had a wonderful time. Wonderful time last night.

[40:57] James T. Lane: And um, you know, and I just it's just, you know, our head can tell us one thing, but once again, we are in the care of something far greater, you know. I cannot trust my thoughts anymore, right? Like I I now know that this this my head, this is I this is an unreliable narrator. This does not this does not know right from wrong. It does not know up from down. I if I can close my eyes and breathe and feel my feet on the ground and just get present to whatever that moment is, like you said, I'm like, I have everything that I need in this moment, right now for sure.

[41:37] James T. Lane: Again, simple but not easy. Simple, simple but not easy. And I again I it's just it's just such powerful medicine for people, especially in this industry, because it is it can be brutal and it can be daunting. And especially when you're not working too, especially when you're not working and you don't have the quote unquote thing that you think defines you, you know, that that that that that makes you whole, that completes you.

[42:07] James T. Lane: How do you find wholeness and th the care of something greater when it it when there it feels empty, you know, it feels like just question marks constantly. It's hard. Yes, it is hard. Yeah, when you don't have the thing that you want the most you know you know and um it's it's uh it it it's who am I without that thing right?

[42:32] James T. Lane: Yeah. Yeah. But it's necessary to to find that. I mean it's necessary to like that I to me that space it's coming back to the thing we're talking about in the beginning of contrast like you have to have that and that that space in order to then feel the other thing when it comes through right um but it takes time and it takes patience to allow for whatever is going to come into that space to be there.

[43:07] James T. Lane: Um and to you know and and I've had this conversation with a lot of people about redefining who you think you are when you don't have the thing that you think defines you. Mm-hmm. Yeah yeah that's the that's the work that's the work.

[43:27] James T. Lane: Yeah yeah and and you know what's funny in pursuing what I or redefining that when you when you get set on that that that's your that's your thing other things start coming in like you're like whoa whoa whoa whoa whoa whoa of course that's that's life you know that that's the way it happens when you when you get clear that you're s you set a course a charted a course yeah of what you're doing then then then you know, like what the it's it's like you know, then that's God shall get, you know.

[43:56] James T. Lane: Mm-hmm. You know, God bless the child that's got his own. You know, when you when you when you've got your own idea or set your course, then that things start to meet that. Like the universe is like, oh, oh, I like that over there. I'm gonna go be with that, whatever that energy is, because that it's how it's popping over there. It's it's abundance when you come from a space of abundance and that's and that's your energy, right?

[44:20] James T. Lane: You're not gonna when you come from a space of lack, I guess this is probably like more clear, when you're in a space of lack and you're like, I don't have, I don't have, I don't have, the universe is gonna continue to give you you don't have, you don't have, you don't have. Right. Right, right, right. If you can show up even when you don't have, in if you can show up that day and say, you know what?

[44:41] James T. Lane: I'm talking to James today. I'm going, the sun is out today. Like my dog is laying right next to me. I have water and a roof over my head, and I'm on this comfortable blanket behind me. If I can get into that space and feel the abundance there, that's where the universe, God, whatever you want to call it, will meet me, you know? Uh-huh. Like that's that that's the energy that I'm then gonna be met with. But that's on me.

[45:09] James T. Lane: Yes, yes. Getting in touch with that feeling. It feels very inherently connected to creativity. In the sense that, like, I don't know how what what your perspective on, you know, creativity is. Um, but to me, it feels very divine. Absolutely. We are we've we we we have come from the great creator. We're here to create.

[45:36] James T. Lane: So, you know, the the simplest form of creation, or simplest, or or or I don't know, with like, you know, men and wife get together and create children. Like let's let's you know, or or whatever you have, you know, you know, and but but but you know, I'm a gay man. So so like I can't really, you know, do that, but I can create a life and a family in a way that is creating that for me if I if I choose to do so.

[46:04] James T. Lane: So creating, you know, we can take that definition and bust it wide open. And but in addition to that, I have chosen the vocation as an artist, or it has chosen me. So I my vocation is creation. So I want to do that. I think a a lot of problem or a lot of um uncomfortability is when a creator or creative person or an artist um it stu stops creating.

[46:34] James T. Lane: It can be very, very frustrating. Yeah. Very very frustrating. And um, you know, the the I think as an artist, you know, we literally, you know, that's that's what we're here to do. And um, you know, that's why I set out from Chicago that time ago for for more creative responsibilities. Like, put me in, coach, you know, like like send send me, like because uh because I what I want the job, I want the responsibility.

[47:04] James T. Lane: I want to be in in that space where I am of service in this way that that is so deeply, deeply uh, you know, inside of me. Like that's I want to be in that creative space, you know, and um and serve and serve, you know, and it has reflect.

[47:22] James T. Lane: And it has manifested. Absolutely. Absolutely, you know, and continues to, you know, as I pour into it, you know, like it's, you know, I'm out of, you know, and staying open and doing the work to stay open. Right. So so that so that it continues to, you know, in the many vessels uh that that it can come through.

[47:44] James T. Lane: This particular prism comes through as triple thread, comes through as my particular version of Billy Flynn tonight. Right. You know, um, it's funny, I'll share this with you. Um, so the first couple of shows, I know Jinx is is is knocking it off the charts, you know, in terms of audience and and and it and uh the first couple of shows I was kind of sneaking out.

[48:07] James T. Lane: I'd put on my hat and go because I thought everybody was there to see drink jinx. And then, and then I was also afraid that like nobody would want my autograph, right? So I think it was on a Thursday, because we started on Monday, and on Thursday I said, you know what? Let me get my little marker out, let me take off my hat, let me let myself be seen.

[48:34] James T. Lane: Yeah, let myself be seen. I don't know what this is about, but let myself be seen and just see what happens. Well, don't you know that there were people that had that that talked about the Scottsboro boys, a chorus line, there were little black boys that's that was seeing me play Billy Flynn, dancers who wanted to be more than just that.

[48:57] James T. Lane: And I said, you know, who am I? I was you I took the words out of a who are you who am I to deny them to stand in the way of of of what what God has prepared for me to do. It's more about God's applause or God's um recognition and where God has bought me from me getting an uh like a feeling about that.

[49:28] James T. Lane: It's it's where I have been placed. It's being of service. It's being of service. Yes. And and it's funny. And here's the thing, and this is we were talking about this earlier about getting through the other to the other side and and and and like you know, being consistent about it.

[49:49] James T. Lane: If I'd not done that, I would never have learned that particular lesson. Like that lesson came to me after I I shored up myself and said whatever's gonna happen is gonna happen, but I need to do this. And not until I was on the train going home did that thought come like, who are you, boo-boo? Like it, you know, like like be of service.

[50:17] James T. Lane: And it's interesting because, and I and I want to point this out because I think you'll totally understand this. It was actually it can be misconstrued, and I'm not misconstruing it because I fully understand. It can be misconstrued as you know what? I I'm ready to go get my praise out of the stage door, but in actuality, you not doing that was more of your ego at play than you going out and saying, let me be of service in this way.

[50:50] James T. Lane: Let me just allow whatever to come will come. It has really nothing to do with me, it's not about me. It's about the path that I've been on. The path that God has put me on. And now in this moment, this particular person and this particular person is coming to this moment with me from wherever they are.

[51:14] James T. Lane: Right. Right. Right. Right. So profound. Profound for me. Profound for me. And I just was like, the lessons just keep on coming. That that's really that's that's powerful.

[51:33] James T. Lane: That's really yeah. Wow. Hmm. Yeah. But took, but took getting your ego out of the way. Out of the way. Out of the way. And that takes courage. That takes courage. Certainly. That's that that's the thing. Like I love, did you see when you see the movie It? The new recent one, or like the not it too, or like the recent badge. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. When they start at the at the end, when they started like shouting things at him, and that he was like, Yeah, you've like shrinking it in. Yeah, right. And I was just like, you know, facing your fears. Whatever you're searching is on the other side of that fear. Whatever you're looking for, that fear that's knocking on your door that's kicking your ass.

It's on the other side of that boo. Yeah. But it's hard, I think, also to identify what that fear is a lot of the time. That's it. That's it. That's it. And I and I feel like the like developing a vocabulary, reading, like all of these things that are teaching you, it gives you the kind of um language to start talking about it. Like when I was sitting in that um group, like when he was talking about fear and shame and guilt, I didn't know that it was those things. Like until like he started talking about it. And I was like, oh that's that's shame. That's guilt. Oh my goodness. Like that language is powerful.

[53:07] Matt Rodin: Yeah. Right, right, right, right. You attach the language to the feeling, and then you can you can express it or chat about it. You know, and then you know, once it's out there, you know, you can you can decide to do something about it. Um, what what books have been helpful in your journey? I'm curious.

[53:24] James T. Lane: Oh goodness, like the four agreements. Um I I read uh what's uh Conversations with God was a big one. The artist's way, like I did that whole workbook, you know, recently I did that during the pandemic. Um lots of audio books, WEDB Du Bois, um documentaries. Uh right now I'm watching the 1619 project. That's on Hulu. Oh goodness. Um when I first got, you know, you know, in in in 2005, I read the Bible all the way through. Wow. Just you know, just yeah, just because like I just want to know. I just want to know. Like I wanna have read the Bible from top to bottom, you know, so so that I can, you know, when people come with some shit, I'm like no actually then, you know, like I don't buy that.

But here's the thing. Knowledge is power. Cause you know when people are bullshitting you. Mm-hmm. You really know when people aren't saying shit. Mm-hmm. That they don't or they're talking about shit that they don't know about. Mm-hmm. And you can like say something about it. There's a lot of stuff that like I just let go because it's not worth my time. Because they haven't read. Or they don't know. You know.

[54:42] Matt Rodin: That's grace.

[54:43] James T. Lane: That's grace. That's grace. You know, you're like, I don't need to be the one. I don't need to be that that is not an expression of love. I don't need to be the one.

[54:51] Matt Rodin: Right. Right. You know, you know, it's funny. And it's just reminds me of um I don't know how this is related, but I'm gonna share this. So I was uh I was going into the subway yesterday, and there was a little a young uh a woman with her child, and there was, you know, our pigeons kind of get into the subway. And this little baby was trying to kick this pigeon. And I kept like standing in front of the baby and the pigeon. You know, like I would like go here and go there. And finally, she know the woman got it together. But I was just like, how many times is has has she been kicking pigeons? That you did notice. Right, right, right. And I was just like, you know, and I just like, you know, it yes, it's language and what we're telling our children, but it's also behavior, you know, like what are what are we not doing?

What are we allowing? Who who are we raising these, you know, as as a as a as a teacher, you know, and then working with young people, you know. Um, you know, we you know, we want young people to be loving and caring, you know, so that they can grow up to be loving and caring.

[56:04] James T. Lane: Right. You know, and um, and and and have a world view instead of a, you know, very, very, very small view. You know, so I I don't know what that has to do with anything, but it's just not like clearing that view. I my my my sort of my my sort of connective thread is obviously one, you know, you certainly appreciate the the God giving grace of all of of God's creatures. We know so that that's that's sort of the bottom line is that we you you you have a deep appreciation and love for even the dirtiest of pigeons on the subway. Like we we can recognize the the got the God grace in in those but I think even more than that I think I think you're right that it that it that becomes about you know uh about behavior and how we and how we show up i in in the smallest ways and in the biggest ways right it's it's of course it's you know the big things like how we treat one another and and um, you know and we're not nasty to each other and and we call our friends and we're nice to our neighbors and and we talk to our family etc etc but it's also in those small moments in those little exchanges um those matter those make those those those really make a difference they make up a life they make up a life and when we say one day at a time what we really say is what we really mean is one moment at a time absolutely absolutely right and so I that's what I think it is it's like it's just showing up in those moments with as much love as we can muster and we have it available to us at all times, right?

[57:48] James T. Lane: We can choose love or we can choose fear in every moment.

[57:51] Matt Rodin: Right, right, right. But if we can choose love in those small moments, whether it's meeting someone at a stage door you feeling where you're at and saying, How can I love myself in this moment? And say, Can I just show up and have fun tonight? Right? Rather than being like the perfectionism, right? Because that's a fear response rather than a love response.

[58:12] James T. Lane: Yeah. Can I show up with love for myself? You know, obviously getting yourself or allowing something bigger than yourself to move you from the the bottom of the bottom of the barrel to Broadway. You know, like like w letting that journey unfold as it is.

[58:33] Matt Rodin: Yeah. To stepping in front of a baby kicking a pigeon.

[58:37] James T. Lane: Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Turn towards the light, right? Like, like, like let's like let's choose not to suffer anymore. Let's choose not to suffer anymore.

[58:49] Matt Rodin: On the big things and then the small things, right? You know, like let's choose, like, like, like, yeah, let me turn the other way. And like feel that warmth of the sun.

[58:59] James T. Lane: When I um one of the defining defining moments uh is that the morning that I kind of like stopped. Um, my partner Ellis at the time, he'd he had come home at like two in the morning, and he said, What are you gonna do? And I was like, I want to stay with you. And he like huffed and like left to go to work. I was like, okay, and I remember not unlike this moment right now, is um I could I was some bus out of the bed and the sun was coming in the window, and I could feel the sun on my face, the right side of my face, and I was like, It's over. It's it's over. Whatever I was just going through, this warmth of the sun that I was feeling. I now know it's over. And I was I cried and cried and cried and cried and cried and cried. And I was very scared, but I knew it was over.

[1:00:02] Matt Rodin: So when I feel that, like if you're, you know, when the cat or the dog gets in a good spot in the sun.

[1:00:07] James T. Lane: Oh, yeah.

[1:00:07] James T. Lane: That's what it reminds me of all the time. It's like you were you you were ready for that. You're ready, ready for something. And I and I and I want to emphasize that it is scary. You know, because it's the devil you know, right? Like, like it's easier to stay with the thing that we know. It's easier to do the predictable thing where I know the beginning and the middle and the end. Much scarier to walk into one could say the darkness, but it is really the light, which is just like it is pure openness. There is no unknown. It's full unknown.

[1:00:38] Matt Rodin: Right.

[1:00:40] James T. Lane: That is scary. Right. Right. Right. And and you know, it's scary at any level of it. You know, like it's scary if you've been out there for 30 years. It's scary for me being like out in the darkness for about four or five years. You know, it doesn't have to, it's not a it's you know it takes what it takes to get out of it, right? It takes what it takes to get out of it, and um, or to get to choose a new way, but um, it's in that moment where mustering the courage and the strength to choose another way, you know, just to to choose not to suffer to suffer anymore. It's really profound and and and and help will come rushing in because it's waiting for you to choose that.

[1:01:29] Matt Rodin: Yeah, it's waiting.

[1:01:31] James T. Lane: Yeah. I this has been such a blessing, James. And and I will say, I mean, obviously, this goes without saying, but you are fantastic in the show, which is just to say that God is working through you in in Chicago. It is it really is it is a love fest in that room right now in that theater. It is really like it is something else. I have not had a theatrical experience like that in a long time. Where it is just like everybody's just like psyched to be there and and there is nobody, nobody phoning it in. Not no one in that on side. Everybody is working.

[1:02:10] Matt Rodin: Right, right. Right.

[1:02:12] James T. Lane: Serving and working. And and it's and it's really it's it's fun to watch. It's fun to get to watch um that unfold, you know, and especially as as a theater person to witness theater people having fun doing the thing is.

[1:02:34] Matt Rodin: I know what you mean.

[1:02:35] James T. Lane: You know what I mean. Like it's so it's so delicious. Like it's so fun to be like, ooh, yeah, they ate it. Like so good. So so good.

[1:02:45] Matt Rodin: Right, right. So I'm I'm so glad that you're that you're enjoying it, and and I'm so excited that you're writing too, that you're doing that you've got you are like working on your own thing, and you're actively create in the art of creating and the act of creation. Um because I think that's especially as artists, that's like our nature. There's um I don't know if you know Elizabeth Gilbert. Um she's another author. She wrote like Eat Pray Love, she wrote Big Magic, um, and she is another recovery person, and she has this great quote that if you're not if we're not actively creating something, then we are actively destroying something.

[1:03:28] James T. Lane: And let me tell you, that is very true for me. If I'm I have to be in the act of creation, yeah, building, otherwise, I am tearing it down, and I and I and I don't want that. And this is this has been to to be here in this moment with you has been so such a like I said, such a blessing, because it's always nice to connect with people and talk about this kind of stuff. Um you know, yeah, on a lot of levels.

[1:03:59] Matt Rodin: We're talking about it on a lot of levels, yeah.

[1:04:02] James T. Lane: And that's that's that's food.

[1:04:04] Matt Rodin: It's nourishment.

[1:04:05] James T. Lane: It is that's the perfect way to put it. It is nourishment.

[1:04:09] Matt Rodin: So I appreciate you.

[1:04:11] James T. Lane: Thank you.

[1:04:12] Matt Rodin: Thanks for having me.

[1:04:14] James T. Lane: Thanks for listening.

[1:04:16] Matt Rodin: See you next time.