This transcript was automatically generated and might contain errors.

[0:00] Leah Walsh: Hi, and welcome to The Compass, the podcast documenting the struggles of life as an artist.

[0:05] Leah Walsh: I'm Leah Walsh.

[0:07] Leah Walsh: My guest today is Jeff Sykes.

[0:09] Leah Walsh: He is an amazing dancer who went to Juilliard with me.

[0:12] Leah Walsh: We overlapped a little bit and got to teach together in New Orleans on an outreach trip.

[0:17] Leah Walsh: His positivity and outlook on life and artistry lift me up, and I am very grateful to talk to him about his journey as a dancer.

[0:25] Leah Walsh: I hope you enjoy the fifth episode of The Compass.

[0:41] Leah Walsh: Hi, Jeff.

[0:42] Jeff Sykes: Hello, how are you?

[0:44] Leah Walsh: I'm good. Thank you so much for being here.

[0:46] Jeff Sykes: Oh, my pleasure.

[0:49] Leah Walsh: So how do you keep yourself from going to the dark side as an artist?

[0:56] Jeff Sykes: I think it's having a physical practice for me being a dancer. I find that working out or taking class or even having a yoga class sort of really allows me that discipline, you know, to train my body at the same time every day. For some reason, just having that physical release really allows me to stay positive. Because I feel like if I'm biomechanically sound in my body, then for some reason I can't hold tension there as much. And it allows everything to circulate. Which is good in a physical sense. And then mentally, it's just sort of like knowing that things kind of stink sometimes. And that's okay. Because it's like everything waxes and wanes, and everything's an evolution and everything's a cycle.

And when you realize that, that everything changes all the time. And then you sort of are put in this place where, oh, anything could be created, even if it might be negative on the outside, but it's like using your perspective to make that enhance your future. Like anything could end at any moment, but something could begin at any moment. Yeah, it's like I don't know, I've been having this like motto lately where it's like if a door closes and you want to get in the room, just keep trying to open it and eventually you're gonna get in. Does that make sense?

[2:01] Leah Walsh: Yeah.

[2:01] Jeff Sykes: Like I don't know, if you're persistent enough, you'll eventually get it. That's what I'm finding. You know, it's just it's just being patient in that cycle and not trying to rush things. 'Cause like I'm really specific, you know, for all of my parts. And I go into a room and sometimes it's like, oh cool, I'm not part of this gang. Like that's great, cool. But then when I am a part when I feel that I am a part of it from the other side of the auditioner, it's like, oh cool, let's drive, let's do some cool dance moves together. Like we're talking the same language. Yeah, like lingo, 'cause yeah. I guess 'cause it's like out of my control almost. All I can do is show up into the room. 'Cause what I was doing before, I was like trying to figure out how to be successful. I was like, no, I already am successful just because I'm doing what I love every day.

[3:12] Leah Walsh: Right.

[3:13] Jeff Sykes: I hope this doesn't I hope this makes sense.

[3:15] Leah Walsh: No, it does.

[3:16] Jeff Sykes: But you mean that you just might not be the right match for the specific room you're in, but it doesn't mean that's okay.

[3:24] Jeff Sykes: Yeah, because you learn like what works for you and what doesn't work for you.

[3:29] Leah Walsh: Yeah.

[3:30] Jeff Sykes: Because it's like the audition sometimes performers think that the audition is just one way and the casting director has all the choice. But you're auditioning them and you're auditioning the work and you're auditioning the material yourself. And if you're open that way and you actually are communicating and listening to the other side, then it's like, oh, that's when things start happening. Right. 'Cause you're out of trying to impress people, you're just there to do the work. And see if it interests you as much as they're interested in you as a dancer.

[3:58] Leah Walsh: Yeah.

[3:59] Jeff Sykes: Yeah. Because then you're then you're able actually to have like a real conversation rather than getting in your head and blocking yourself before you walk into that room.

[4:07] Leah Walsh: Yeah.

[4:08] Jeff Sykes: So having that like daily physical practice really helps you stay away from feeling lost when you're not working or when auditions are going badly or whatever. Because that's that it's something that I can put in my control. I guess that's why I really appreciate it. 'Cause it's my time. It's for me. I walk into that room and I lift those weights or I do that dance class, you know, and it's for me and it's my time to sort of hone my physical tempo.

[4:35] Leah Walsh: Yeah.

[4:36] Jeff Sykes: Which allows me to be a pure vessel when I need to, like being able to tap into that at a moment's notice, which I think is what all performers sort of strive for, being able to get into that sweet spot of creativity.

[4:51] Leah Walsh: No, that makes so much sense. And it's a little harder I feel like for actors to stay on top of their game like that because there's it's harder to work on your instrument alone than as an actor as maybe it is as a dancer when you can do yoga classes or I mean that's good for actors too. But dance classes and you know, you're not doing scene work with another actor kind of thing.

[5:16] Jeff Sykes: And also allows me to get out of my head.

[5:18] Leah Walsh: Yeah.

[5:19] Jeff Sykes: 'Cause sometimes I overthink things, and that really brings me to the dark side. Like rule number one, like when you overthink things, it's just gonna get shadowy. It's like break through that shade, just breathe. You know, something as simple as like taking deep breaths on that subway station. Like for instance, I was I had a very dramatic day in the spring. It was you know, like when audition seasons and you have like a bazillion things to do in one day. Well, I went to this call and I got cut right away, and I was like tragically devastated, you know, because I really wanted this, and then I was like, no, there's another audition in an hour, but if I get my stuff together, I can go and have another opportunity to do what I love. So I like took a moment, like had my like hyperventilating moment, got my stuff together, then went to an audition and booked it.

[6:06] Leah Walsh: Amazing.

[6:07] Jeff Sykes: You know what I mean? And it was like, oh, cool, that's all I needed to do.

[6:10] Leah Walsh: Yeah.

[6:11] Jeff Sykes: You know, because see if I would have overthought that first audition, I would have gotten in my way for the second one. Rather than just like, oh, that's fine. It is what it is. I didn't get it. It wasn't because I wasn't the right type. It was just like not my day.

[6:24] Leah Walsh: Yeah.

[6:25] Jeff Sykes: Great. 'Cause you know how sometimes when you leave auditions, people are like, but I didn't get this because of XYZ. I have freckles, you know, I just have like this look they gave me at this moment.

[6:36] Leah Walsh: Yeah, or I coughed when I should have sneezed and I raised my hand when I shouldn't have had a question.

[6:41] Jeff Sykes: And it's just it's not it's not that deep. Like sometimes things happen. You know? I don't know. I always want someone to get the job. You know? When I'm in the room, I'm like, I hope someone here gets this job. I hope it's perfect for someone. I hope you make a lot of money here. Because it's not it's not my thing.

[7:00] Leah Walsh: That's so interesting to me, because for actors they don't let you know if you don't get it. And for dancers, like if you get cut the day of, right?

[7:08] Jeff Sykes: Yeah, you like if you make it to the end of the day, you have a pretty good shot of getting it, or you know you're in the running.

[7:15] Leah Walsh: Yeah.

[7:16] Jeff Sykes: And for actors, they just don't let you know unless you're the one who gets it a week later or something like that.

[7:21] Leah Walsh: Oh, well, it's also you guys don't have to audition in a group as much.

[7:24] Jeff Sykes: No.

[7:25] Jeff Sykes: We're always we're literally cattle. Just like numbers, numbers and leotards. That's what I feel like I am sometimes.

[7:31] Leah Walsh: So you don't ever get a chance to have that like one on one conversation.

[7:36] Jeff Sykes: Mm-mm.

[7:37] Jeff Sykes: I mean sometimes we don't either. Only if the director's really nice do they like make conversation before you.

[7:43] Leah Walsh: But at least they hear you speak.

[7:45] Jeff Sykes: They don't even hear us speak sometimes. You could get I remember getting a job and the director had not even talked to me. He just saw me dance.

[7:53] Leah Walsh: Yeah.

[7:56] Jeff Sykes: I was like, how do you know if I'm gonna be a good employee?

[7:59] Leah Walsh: Right.

[8:00] Jeff Sykes: Nope. Just care about how I move. That's great.

[8:04] Jeff Sykes: Right, which in some ways is great. I love that you were so attracted to my dance, but yeah. How do you know if I'm gonna be dependable or polite or fascinating, right?

[8:15] Leah Walsh: Yeah.

[8:16] Jeff Sykes: But I said yes and I danced her.

[8:18] Leah Walsh: Do you do choreography at this point in your career?

[8:22] Jeff Sykes: Yeah.

[8:23] Jeff Sykes: Uh-huh. I actually just did my first solo at Justin Church in the spring. It was part of stuffed.

[8:30] Leah Walsh: Okay.

[8:31] Jeff Sykes: Carly Eckert did it. She's it's a low budget, high visibility platform for artists in New York, and they actually have free food. So it's stuffed, so it's like a meal and a show, and it's free. Awesome. And it's really great. They do a lot of like curatorial works and process. So that was my first professional like foray into it. And that was it was actually really liberating. 'Cause sometimes as a dancer in the connector scene, a lot of my choreography gets I generate material for the people I work for and then they put the stamp on the choreography. And it was fun to like have my choreography be my choreography and not someone else claiming it.

[9:16] Leah Walsh: Right.

[9:17] Jeff Sykes: Yeah, and that was really liberating. Being the choreographer, like how you would change the audition experience or something like that, but you were just choreographing on yourself.

[9:33] Leah Walsh: Yeah.

[9:34] Jeff Sykes: Yeah. Well, because right now I don't feel that I I'm very interested in making work on myself because I don't wanna bring other people into the studio if I can't compensate them. Or yeah, pretty much. And since I'm not in a capacity to do that, it's like I think all my friends are beautiful dancers, but I'm not going to ask them to work for free. 'Cause I feel that if you are at a certain level, like you should be paid for your work. You know, you should be compensated and it shouldn't be like, oh, I'll give you a spaghetti dinner and come dance for me for six hours. It's like for me it's I don't know. I'd rather work on myself and my investigation and see where that leads, try to get funding from that and then bring in dancers.

[10:21] Leah Walsh: I don't know.

[10:22] Jeff Sykes: I'm over to.

[10:22] Leah Walsh: No, that makes a lot of sense and that's very respectful of your peers.

[10:27] Jeff Sykes: Yeah, well, I just don't feel that there's a lot of respect, especially for dancers out there.

[10:33] Leah Walsh: Yeah.

[10:33] Jeff Sykes: You know, 'cause there's always there was always someone younger who will do it for free or will pay you to work. I did a dance piece a couple of years ago with Lucy Baker Delem and she was using three actor movers. But she was so insistent on paying us an hourly wage for the rehearsals and the performances. And it was it was amazing 'cause we went to school together and I would have done it for free 'cause I was excited to do something with her and to kind of get to be a dancer, which is my secret dream. But I really respected the fact that she was so insistent on like, nope, this was my idea. This is a piece I'm asking you to do and I'm gonna pay you whatever small amount I can per hour 'cause you deserve that. It meant a lot to me.

[11:21] Leah Walsh: Yeah.

[11:21] Jeff Sykes: And it makes you I feel that if you invest in the people who are working for you, they invest more in the work.

[11:28] Leah Walsh: Yeah.

[11:29] Jeff Sykes: You know? And for some reason the art world is just living in this bubble that there's no business savvy or like consistency. It's like, oh it's flighty, it's cool, it's casual, come and then all it's always super rushed at the last minute, you know, there's always that stress to get the show together. It's like, wait a minute, if there was more respect in the beginning of the process, then we could have used all of our time equally rather than putting so much pressure for the week before the show. We would have been using that incubation time for that three months and been working with that respect from the get-go. You know and then it would be every second is precious in a creative process.

It's not just like the last week that's important. It's like the whole time. And working with someone like Lucy Baker who I two thumbs up to you Lucy Baker. I don't know, it's cool because you probably had a really great process in it because there was that level there was like that electric spark of respect in the room between director and vessel, which sometimes actually a lot of times in New York for the dance world, it's just not there. It's like we're expected to do like go above and beyond almost and like getting paid nine weeks late, like no talk of a contract, we could be fired at any time.

[12:56] Jeff Sykes: I don't know. It's just very strange. It always makes you feel like, oh, should I be auditioning for other things, or should I stay here? Like, I don't know what's going on.

[13:07] Right. Do you value me long term or should I or am I replacing something else?

[13:12] Yeah. Because there's just not that business security that I don't know, exists in like every sector that isn't the arts field sometimes.

[13:23] Cause we have the Actors' Equity Association. We have the union for some stage work.

[13:30] Do you guys have that at all?

[13:32] Um, we have AGMA, which is a musical guild, but I'm only it's it it's only if it's a union house.

[13:40] Like I'm dancing at the Met Opera this season. So like my contract is under AGMA, but that's only very specific ballet companies or like the Met Opera.

[13:51] Right. You know, it's not most of the stuff you're involved in.

[13:54] No. But then there are organizations out there that actually are kicking butt administratively that I'm starting to find in the city I'm working for, and it's like I just want to work for them more and more and more.

[14:08] Like Third Rail Project in Brooklyn.

[14:11] Yeah, Jenna Pollock told me about them.

[14:13] I still haven't seen their show or been to their classes, but I hear it's amazing.

[14:17] Yeah, I've done some work with them this summer, and I'm hopefully continuing working with them fingers crossed.

[14:23] Um anyway, but they have this really wonderful way of investing in artists in more than just their artistic skill set, they'll bring them in administratively and they will put them in office hours if they can't all give them a full-time salary based off of their performative needs, you know.

[14:44] Like someone who's in the NGFL will also be a part of finance or social media or rehearsal director.

[14:50] So they're able to put on two hats and get more compensation under the same umbrella.

[14:56] So the directors are actually reinforcing the strength of their cast because the people who are working for them feel safe and they feel like they are going to be used and they are being invested in.

[15:09] And that's why those performers are there for so long. And that's why their work is so rich.

[15:14] Because like when you create a vocabulary between director and performer, there's something that's special and beautiful and intimate.

[15:21] And if you keep developing that, it's like the relationship just keeps better.

[15:25] Keep getting better.

[15:27] Like I don't know. I see my parents and they're married for 35 plus years, and their relationship just keeps getting better because they know the nuances of each other, and they know each other inside and out.

[15:41] And it's like that's the relationship you want to be building creatively.

[15:46] Like you know, like you don't want to feel like, oh, I do I spent like two months with this person, I spent like a week and a half with this person.

[15:53] I've spoken to I mean that's that's all well and good, but yeah, you want to build these long-term creative relationships.

[16:00] At least me.

[16:01] At least me.

[16:02] In I don't know.

[16:03] No, they just get deeper and deeper.

[16:04] Yeah.

[16:05] I agree.

[16:06] But that's so cool that they're building this community where you're invested in the organization and they're invested in you.

[16:13] Yeah.

[16:14] And also just yeah, I don't know.

[16:17] Even like how they audition, it's just wonderful.

[16:20] I felt like it was a workshop the whole time.

[16:22] You know, it's cool when you go to an audition and you feel like you are getting a skill set that is above and beyond what you have when you walked into the room.

[16:29] Yeah.

[16:30] And I don't think many places can offer that.

[16:32] Because it's all about like who's hot, who's fierce, who has that look.

[16:36] Right.

[16:37] And like who are you?

[16:38] But you spend so much time on auditions with no expectation of compensation or you know, the small chance that you'll get the job.

[16:45] So that's great to feel like that you're getting something out of it even if you don't book it.

[16:49] Yeah.

[16:49] And also like a class or something.

[16:51] And also in the dance world, there's so many auditions that don't even have an end result.

[16:57] People just have auditions to get their name out there or for like a really like I just want to build the relationship with people.

[17:05] And it's like, okay, I realize that.

[17:08] However like they're not planning to hire anyone or have a company or or they've already filled that position with someone that they met two years ago, blah blah blah.

[17:17] And they're just holding these auditions for visibility to get their name out there to get people interested.

[17:23] And I don't know, I find that really shady.

[17:26] I mean, would a business have interviews if they weren't looking to fill a position?

[17:31] They would have to be a good idea.

[17:32] Yeah, like go teach a class at a studio and advertise it that way if you want to do that.

[17:36] Yeah, but it's also like this weird dance culture in New York where like you give me twenty bucks for class and I'll give you twenty-five dollars for an audition and then you'll come see my shows.

[17:48] So we all keep giving each other twenty-five dollars.

[17:50] And it's like just trade off.

[17:52] Yeah.

[17:52] And rather than I don't know like trying to bring the art to the public.

[18:00] Yeah instead of just the community.

[18:03] Yeah.

[18:03] I mean the reason sometimes I think that the New York dance scene is so strong is because there's so many New York dancers who are going to see shows.

[18:10] You know, who are interested who are created for wonderful individuals who I think are some of the most fantastic human beings I know.

[18:17] But like the structure that they're in it's just like this uh the suffocating I c I can't I don't know like this pool of incestuous oh am I allowed to say that no but it feels it feels a little bit like that, you know?

[18:34] Like you're doing your work and then it's also part of your job to see these ten shows this week or whatever.

[18:39] And like I'll see my friend do this or I'm interested in working for this person so I'll go see their show and show my face.

[18:45] It's like a it's almost very Game of Thrones like I play this game, you play that game.

[18:51] And it's just very strange.

[18:53] Like Yeah, we have that in the theater world too.

[18:56] It isn't it frustrating the social part of it.

[18:59] Sometimes you just want to stay home.

[19:01] Yeah.

[19:02] Yeah sometimes life happens you have to play like this social game a little bit.

[19:05] Yeah and it's like you have to be starting.

[19:09] Yeah.

[19:10] And it's oh it's it's fascinating.

[19:16] Uh yeah.

[19:17] But then I also realize that like I feel that I'm part of and as are you, a part of like a generation of artists who are figuring out the system is flawed a little bit and figuring out how to make your own way in it.

[19:33] You know, and figuring out your own opportunities for yourself.

[19:37] Rather than trying to go into the same conventional system.

[19:42] There's so many middlemen in that system, I feel like.

[19:44] And I f which is which is fine.

[19:47] I mean, that system is great.

[19:48] I love being entertained.

[19:49] I think it's great for the people who it works for.

[19:51] You know, and that's kudos, but I think for me, it doesn't work for me.

[19:56] I find myself very frustrated in that system.

[19:58] So I'm glad that I'm able to make opportunities and to being exposed to these different ways of thinking.

[20:06] Yeah.

[20:07] You know, and making work and how to make work and why the making of work is important.

[20:13] And how to get it to an audience in a different way.

[20:17] Yeah.

[20:17] 'Cause a lot of times art is only for the artist.

[20:22] And I don't know.

[20:25] I look at Bach and he's one of my favorite composers and he mostly all of his commissions were for wealthy donors.

[20:35] Or for the church, right?

[20:36] Oh yeah, oh, oh yes, yes, yes.

[20:37] The that's what I meant.

[20:39] Yeah.

[20:40] So But like even back then it was for like the church was his audience and he had to create work for that audience.

[20:49] And I'm I don't know.

[20:50] I don't know when it became all about us and all about our internal struggle and all about like darkness.

[20:56] It's like I don't know, I just long for Gene Kelly on stage.

[21:00] Like just seeing that, like having like allowing the audience to be transported into a hyper reality where they forget things.

[21:08] And they're allowed to shed some baggage and they come out a little lighter.

[21:14] You know?

[21:14] I think that's one theatrical experience.

[21:17] I mean there's also ones where it's like you're thinking a lot and you're really challenged, which is great.

[21:21] But that's that's really hard that's really hard to get into if you don't want to say yes when you sit down in the seat.

[21:28] If you're trying to be impressed by the thing that's on stage, you're like kinda curious, and you get turned off by some cerebral high-end avant garde art piece of art that's not really well, and I feel like the joyful thing that you're talking about is often kind of poo-pooed by critics.

[21:48] Mm.

[21:50] Because they think it's kind of lighter or like not as not as serious as the other stuff.

[21:55] Yeah.

[21:55] But it can be just as valuable, yeah, to be uplifted by something than to be in the really serious I'm making art place.

[22:04] Yeah, I just find that I mean I like both, but I like both too.

[22:08] But sometimes I feel like the world is so dark.

[22:10] Yeah.

[22:10] That's like we need a little we need to let a little light in.

[22:14] Yeah.

[22:14] Like there needs to be a little more celebration of beauty.

[22:19] I mean, there's so much destruction around us and it's so easy to tap into that hyper sexualization of like I'm hot and that's interesting.

[22:27] Especially in dance, I'm sure.

[22:28] Yeah.

[22:29] Since it's a physical and it's so easy to pass that line and like succumb to like the like hyper sexuality.

[22:41] But for me that sexualization is just creative energy that hasn't moved up your chakra system.

[22:47] So it's like just transmute that and make it a little more wholesome and true.

[22:53] Hmm.

[22:53] 'Cause like everything's about sex until the sex happens and then it's not about sex, it's about power.

[22:59] And it's like, I don't know.

[23:01] If art's always about power or sex, like where's the purity?

[23:07] Where's like the dimension to it?

[23:09] Where's the subtlety?

[23:11] You know, I don't know.

[23:13] I like sometimes I like being I I as an audience member I like being invited into a world rather than being told that this is the world and this is what I'm supposed to swallow.

[23:24] You know, curiosity will always make me more interested than Blue, here I am, bringing to the fourth ball.

[23:33] No, I don't.

[23:34] It's like a whisper is more inviting than a shout.

[23:38] Yeah.

[23:39] In my perspective.

[23:41] You mentioned your parents earlier. Are they do they have any artistic leanings or how do they relate to this career you're involved in?

[23:51] Uh by being the most supportive, wonderful parents in the world.

[23:55] Yeah.

[23:55] And trusting in me and always saying yes and being there when I'm sad and feel like crap, and just not not telling not telling me anything really, but just being there to support me and just always having a text saying, So proud of you, thinking of you, you know, and my dad um was a call was a athlete all throughout high school, so he's very physical.

[24:24] He's a black belt.

[24:26] Um he does cycling with my mom right now.

[24:30] Uh so he's always been very physical.

[24:32] So I think that's and he was a baseball coach.

[24:35] Um he can relate to that.

[24:36] Yeah, so like the dance, yeah, the athleticism.

[24:40] Right.

[24:40] He can really understand that.

[24:41] And then my mom is very creative and nurturing and is so crafty.

[24:47] Like she's just so crafty.

[24:51] And so having those like having a super athletic and a super creative parent who are both super supportive and put their children first.

[25:01] Like I'm realizing as I'm coming to my late twenties how fortunate I am to have parents who went, we're gonna give our children everything that they need in order to be successful, and we're gonna put them first and we're gonna put them in activities that are expensive and they're going to be able to do those activities, you know.

[25:19] Did you start dance at a very young age?

[25:21] Mm-hmm.

[25:22] I started when I was sixteen.

[25:24] Oh which is relatively late.

[25:26] Yeah.

[25:26] I c I guess I kinda danced my whole life, you know, just like hip hop.

[25:30] I always had a rhythm.

[25:31] Mm-hmm.

[25:32] Did theater.

[25:33] Um, but I didn't start trading classically till I was sixteen.

[25:37] I had an urge of my theater camp director.

[25:42] Jeff Sykes: I mean to dance. I was like, okay, and then I got to know and then you really needed to dance. Yeah, and then I just sort of this is it. And then center stage was out. Uh-huh. I was like, Oh, these these kids are cool. That seems fun. I wanna dance in red point shoes. And then I went to boarding school in North Carolina at North Carolina School of the Arts. I spent two the two years there in their Pali department, and then auditioned for Juilliard and was like, gotta do it. I actually auditioned for Juilliard twice. I didn't get in my first year. I know. But then you did. Yeah. Thanks, Juilliard. For some reason I had it in my mind that if I wanted to be a dancer, I had to go there. Center stage. Well, that was ABT, but they used the Juilliard building, so they like subtly they subtly messaged you that you should be actually. Yeah, well, it's in the Lincoln Center area. You know, it's just that whole place. It's magical.

[26:39] Leah Walsh: Yeah, well, that's wonderful that your parents are so supportive.

[26:42] Jeff Sykes: Yeah. They're sometimes it can be hard for families to understand the culture that we're in or the demands of this career. And I like my parents because they don't try to understand. They just support. You know, and I and I talk to them and they're interested and they come see my shows and they're supportive, but I don't know. There's something where like they their love for me is not because I'm a dancer, it's not because I'm this or that. It's because they love me and that supersedes anything that I could accomplish.

[27:18] Leah Walsh: So they're not putting the pressure on you to accomplish certain milestones.

[27:22] Jeff Sykes: No, they just want me to be happy and to be taking care of myself. That's wonderful. They're like you have your four walls, a roof, food, and you're still smiling, so that's that's all you really need. You know.

[27:39] Leah Walsh: Um, can you tell me a little bit about what you've been doing for like day job kind of things outside of dance?

[27:45] Jeff Sykes: Oh yeah. Um I've been working in the wonderful area of boutique fitness. Um I I'm a trainer. Uh and I've been have you been doing that since school? No. Mm mm. This is a recent development. This is like six months. Um, I started in January. I realized that in order to be safe in this city, I needed to be financially independent in a field that was outside of my art form. Um for my sanity and also for my creative development. So I like I got this job training, and now I'm able to do whatever project I want, you know, and it's okay if I get paid late because I am making enough money from this job, you know, and that's a very different standpoint to be in your life.

[28:40] Because when you have that comfort and security already figured out, it's like other things fall into place. It's like I audition better because I do not have to stress about money as much. I I have better meetings because my mind is not worried about what I'm going to have for dinner or what's in my fridge, or how many meals can I get out of a ramen pack? You know, like I'm able to feed myself better and am able to take care of myself and take more classes and read more books and go to museums and see movies and feed your creative side.

[29:16] Yeah, and at first I've at first I was like just really excited to have money in my bank account, and then I was like, oh, I'm actually taking a step back and getting out of this tortured artist mindset where everything is wrong and everything is a struggle, and it's like, no, when I when I do my art now, it's a joy because I choose to do it, and yes, I do have a job outside of that, but it's physical and I help the world be better because I'm like teaching people how to use their abs and stand up stronger and get their heart rate up and feel good about themselves.

[29:51] I mean, it's amazing, like people don't know what freedom being physical gives you, you know, and to give someone who does not feel confident in her body, telling her that she is strong because she's lifting twelve kilograms of weight through the air at a quick tempo, it's like she feels dynamic and awesome and like an athlete. And that's strength. And I like I think that strength is one of the best things you can have. And it comes from within. It's not because she's lifting that heavy weight, it's because she chose that she could lift that heavy weight. I think that's cool.

[30:29] Leah Walsh: It's all about mindset.

[30:30] Jeff Sykes: Yeah. All about mindset. Like you always need to make your internal monologue serving you. You know what I mean? Because we get in our way and we we always say we could be this or we could do that, or XYZ, but it's like, no, you just need to be strong in your mind, and then things are gonna like don't doubt yourself. Don't doubt yourself. If you want to get something, you have to believe in yourself. Right? Because a lot of people say, Oh, I want to do this, or oh, I want to have a job. It's like, well, if you want to have a job, you're on the frequency of wanting. You're not in the frequency of having.

[31:12] You know, and if you believe that you are going to get a job that serves you and is ha like all of the things that you want on your bucket list, it's out there. It might take a while to bring it into your life or to make those right connections, but it's like you always want to be that arrow pointing forward.

[31:30] Leah Walsh: Do you feel like you've always had that point of view, or is that something you've kind of developed since graduating, or um, I've always had that point of view.

[31:37] Jeff Sykes: Yeah. I think that's why I got into Juilliard after two years of like classical training, and when I got into Juilliard, I was just like the bottom of the barrel. It was like, Oh you guys are really good at what you do here. Like my class was a bunch of phenomenal dancers who were beautiful and killing it professionally, like so great, so wonderful. And I got to learn from them. Rather than being like, Oh, I'm the worst person in class, I was like, Nope. I just have to spend more time in the studio after night figuring out how to fall to the ground or working on that solo or doing this. 'Cause it was just my time my time of training had to be condensed into a shorter amount of time. And I recognize that and it's like I rolled with it rather than trying to fight it and make it a pity party about me.

[32:27] Leah Walsh: Right.

[32:28] Jeff Sykes: 'Cause no one no one cares. No one cares about your pity party. I I know that's really sad to say, but No, but it's true. I like I think the reason we're friends is because we bring each other up, you know, and we're we're always like, Yeah, totally cool, what's up? Hey It's not oh well the world is wrong. It rained today, and that means that I'm not going to do this or this. It's like no, it rained today, and I'm gonna put on an umbrella and I'm gonna get my errands done.

[32:58] Leah Walsh: Mm-hmm.

[32:59] Jeff Sykes: Like the world is full of accidents and things that go astray. But if you are able to react with that with like strength and just like a tenacity, like you're always gonna find your way.

[33:12] Leah Walsh: I love that about you. Your outlook is so positive.

[33:15] Jeff Sykes: It's incredible. Yeah, but like life does stink. Like No, I I know. I'm not like a like, like you have to acknowledge that. You have to acknowledge what you're feeling, you have to acknowledge where you are.

[33:24] Leah Walsh: Yeah.

[33:25] Jeff Sykes: But then to go back to that place of like, okay, that happened, and now I'm gonna move forward. Yeah, like that's incredible. But my bar Ben and Jerry's reality sometimes is very real. And I take my minute and I'm on that. And then I go, okay, time to wipe yourself up. What can I learn from this situation?

[33:43] Leah Walsh: Yeah.

[33:43] Jeff Sykes: Cause like, I don't know, it's very interesting in my life. I find that every situation is trying to tell me something. And sometimes when I'm not listening, I just have the same situation coming up over and over and over again. Until I'm able to listen to that and I go, Oh, there's a pattern, and that pattern is me. Learn that lesson.

[34:00] Leah Walsh: Yeah.

[34:00] Jeff Sykes: And once you realize that you're in control of a lot of stuff, like how you perceive, then things start to change. You know? Like this was a shift in me recently in auditions. Like I go into an audition now, I'm like, this is a conversation. This is a conversation between you and me to figure out if we can formulate a sentence. Does it make sense for each of us to be a participant? You know, and sometimes it rolls really well, and sometimes it doesn't. But when it doesn't, it's actually more it's actually fine because I'm still in the room, I'm still having fun.

[34:34] But I just realize it's not working. Rather than going into an audition going, I need to book this, right? I need to have this. I want this bet more than the other person in the room. I'm I just did something wrong. I didn't know. Or I should have what they needed. I'm more technically advanced or oh, I should have I should have formatted my my resume this way. And I should have put the It's like, no. No, no, no, no, no, no, no. Those are like you get lost in the details and you don't realize what actually happens in the room.

[35:02] Leah Walsh: Right.

[35:02] Jeff Sykes: 'Cause it's like it's basically just a conversation.

[35:05] Leah Walsh: Right.

[35:05] Jeff Sykes: Well, you were telling me though that sometimes you do feel like cattle and you're auditioning with a big group and like how do you how do you make it into that conversation for yourself when you feel that way? Is it just about observing what they're teaching and you're like, well, this choreography doesn't speak to me or

[35:15] Jeff Sykes: Yeah, well it's also like how do you take that power? Like uh the I've gotten jobs from open cattle calls. Um and it's it's realizing that you're a one voice in a very large conversation and you need to listen even more so that when you're being viewed you are a clear vessel of the information that's being presented in the front of the room. You know, rather than trying rather than trying to be the best in the room, I'm trying to be the truest to the form in the room.

[35:53] Leah Walsh: Yeah.

[35:53] Jeff Sykes: You know, so I'm trying to 'cause at least in dance they always are t saying the same corrections or saying what they're looking for. And tapping into that you know that's what I find sets me apart. It's just listening. Because they give you a lot of verbal cues and you can listen by watching, you can listen by hearing and you can listen by seeing other people dance.

[36:15] Because you can show someone a move and everyone's gonna have their own lens. Everyone's gonna have their own lens of interpreting it.

[36:22] Leah Walsh: Right, especially in an audition.

[36:23] Jeff Sykes: Oh they're all thinking about a million different things. But to know to know that your lens is being true is hard. Do you know what I mean? So you it's just like it's a practice. It's a knowledge like I take dance class a lot. I went to school like I've I've I've worked a lot. I've worked on my craft a lot. I'm very serious about dancing. I love dance. Go dance. More dance.

[36:50] So I guess I I guess I'm like just trying to say all these wonderful things to get around a point. Like I just I try to be true and honest and like bring myself, bring my light into the room and let that show rather than trying to hit the step. I try to embody it and like perform it. Like really dance it. You know like actually have fun in the audition.

[38:19] Leah Walsh: Yeah.

[38:20] Jeff Sykes: Cause so many people are just so stressed. Like I tried I try to I f I am such a jokester in auditions. Like I just try to make the people around me laugh and I try to have conversations with people.

[38:31] Leah Walsh: That's an amazing amazing way to approach it.

[38:33] Jeff Sykes: I I I try to be I try to be friends with people. Like I just try to just Yeah because if I'm trying to compete with that other person it just doesn't work. But if I'm like hey what's up it's like oh you came here today that's fun like or like I see my friends in audition I'm like oh you want this job too? That's great. Cool. I hope I get it. Or some like trying to keep it light so I always kind of love it when I run into friends at an audition. We don't have to audition at the exact same time but you do. But like if I ran into them and we're both waiting to go in it always kind of puts me at ease because we get to talk about our lives and like makes me feel at home before we each go in and do our thing.

[38:33] Leah Walsh: What have you been working on?

[38:34] Jeff Sykes: Yeah, or who's dancing with that company? Oh, did you hear this? Or did you hear that? Oh, did you get a callback for that? And it's just like, oh my goodness. So like I just got a crock pot and I made pulled pork for the first time. It's really good. I had like six cups of apple cider vinegar in the pork. It was, you know, like that's the type of stuff that, yes, I talked stuff that I want to hear about. Like that's the, yeah. Let's have conversations about real life instead of the business.

[39:06] Leah Walsh: Yeah.

[39:07] Jeff Sykes: Cause it's, I don't know. Sometimes talking about the business in that way is a big time to get into the dark side. You know, that gossipy info thing. Like I actually like being ignorant of like companies' comings and goings or if a director's a total jerk. Like I can, I don't want to know sometimes the anecdotes about like why this person left in a huff or why this person was this, that or the other 'cause there's always three sides to the story. There's her side, his side, and the truth. And you know, it's just that gossipy culture that's been pervading. I just find it really unhealthy 'cause I hate, I hate, I hate knowing information about someone that I haven't seen and then I see them for a while and it's like, oh, I already know what you're gonna tell me or I know that you had this event that happened and it was really embarrassing for you. Cause it's just weird.

[40:10] Leah Walsh: Right, but it's not based on your experience with them at all.

[40:13] Jeff Sykes: Yeah, and I don't know if it's actually true. It's just like ballet bar jargon. Like you see someone before a ballet class and they're, oh my god, did you see that person? They left the company and it was the, it's like, uh, really? Like, that can't be true. And then you leave and you dance, and then you have like this really bad seed in your head where it's like, oh my goodness, there was a very dramatic event happening. And it ends up being like a super casual thing where, oh sorry, I didn't get the email. Like that. Is this making any sense?

[40:45] Leah Walsh: Yeah.

[40:45] Jeff Sykes: Yeah. So I just don't like knowing that about that gossip. Like I really try to separate myself from it. Because I don't care.

[40:51] Leah Walsh: Yeah, that can be poisonous.

[40:53] Jeff Sykes: Yeah. I mean, business is business. And I think that if you have an uncomfortable relationship with someone, then learn from it. You don't need to air that out all the time. I love that you talk about it as business and you talk about yourself as an employee.

[41:07] Leah Walsh: Yeah.

[41:11] Jeff Sykes: Well, that's because we don't, remember that respect thing we were talking about earlier?

[41:15] Leah Walsh: Yeah.

[41:15] Jeff Sykes: Because a lot of people don't view art as a business, and it is.

[41:19] Leah Walsh: Right, and I love that you approach it that way.

[41:21] Jeff Sykes: Yeah, and I think that art needs to be more business-oriented in order to be successful. You know, dance makers who are successful today have a brand, they have a business, they know what their audience wants, and they know how to get funding. You know, it's like ideals are all fine and good, but ideals don't allow your dancers to be their highest selves. It doesn't give them the ability to make smart dietary choices or get body work done or take class. It just sort of fills them in with feeling good that, oh, we're really achieving real artwork here, and aren't we doing the real work? It's like, no, all dance is good dance. You know, like when it comes down to it, it's expression of the human soul, and who are you to say what piece of art is better or worse? It's like, no, you need to create an environment for your dancers that they can be successful. That's where I view successful art now.

[42:18] Leah Walsh: And that's a shift.

[42:19] Jeff Sykes: So they can live a decent life.

[42:21] Leah Walsh: Yeah, that's a big shift from school.

[42:24] Jeff Sykes: Because I would be like, oh, it's all about that work. It's all about the work, it's all about the process. And I'm like, it's about the process, it's about the work, but it's also about how you're treated in the work. Because if you're not able to have a real life outside of your work, you know, if you're not able to go out to dinner, or you're not able to grab a happy hour, or you're not able to take a yoga class or afford a train or plane ride home, then you're living on a level that's a struggle. And how are you supposed to uplift society from your art if you're always in that struggle? You know? And that's something that I had to grapple with and had to, that was a bitter pill for me to swallow. Cause it's like, no, I'm struggling because I'm making sacrifices for the work, and that's what you're supposed to do. It's like, no, you don't need to do that.

[43:16] Jeff Sykes: And I think that's why it's a cycle. It's a really unhealthy cycle. And I want to break it. I don't know. I don't think that there has to be, I don't think that there has to be this formula of good work is poor paying and bad work pays. I think there's a lot of really great commercial stuff that is killing it. Like some stuff that they're doing out in LA in music videos, I think it's spectacular. I think it's wonderful. I think the stuff that they're doing on Broadway, like especially with American in Paris or On the Town, I think those are wonderful shows. And yes, they are commercial-oriented in a Broadway facet, but those dancers are beautiful. And they have such great clarity in their body, and like it's entertaining to watch.

[43:24] Leah Walsh: Right.

[43:24] Jeff Sykes: And I don't think that that is any different than something that is being presented at BAM Next Wave Festival. I, you know what I mean? Because I was presented at BAM Next Wave Festival, and I couldn't afford dinner on my opening night. I couldn't, I had to borrow money from my roommate in order to go to the deli to buy a peanut butter and jelly bagel. But I was being presented at BAM Next Wave. Like that, it's interesting because you think when I was in school, I was like, oh, anything that's being presented at BAM, like, oh, you're just gonna be getting money. Yeah, they'll obviously be paying you a fair wage. And it's just like I was there and I was like, oh, that was a haha moment. I was like, oh, it's not what it seems like from the outside.

Like this is, this is real and this is sad that I'm at, and it's no one's fault. I'm not blaming anyone. It's just I realized at that moment that I'm making a choice to be in this situation, and this is not a situation that's allowing me to be me. It's putting me in a very dark place. Because when you can't afford food, you're putting yourself in a dark place. You know, and I think a lot of artists always want to be working and they always want to be doing a project. And like what I did this summer is I took a step back and I went, what do I really want out of life? What do I really want to do? I want to be happy. So I need to take myself out of situations that are making me unhappy. Even though from the outside perspective, when I have a conversation with someone, it sounds like I'm successful.

You know? Like it's a difference between having a successful conversation with someone and feeling like crap on the inside and having someone who's kind of unimpressed with what you're doing, but you don't really care one way or the other because you are fulfilled in yourself.

[46:10] Leah Walsh: Yeah.

[46:11] Jeff Sykes: You know. And I'm just fulfilled right now. You know, it's really great because I feel really open.

[46:20] Leah Walsh: Yeah.

[46:20] Jeff Sykes: And I didn't feel that way before. But I felt like I had to stay in a position and I don't know. I took responsibility for myself and realized and the situation that I was in are wonderful for some people. And they're making it work and their realities like jive with it, and it's awesome. For me, it didn't work. And I tried to force myself into that system, and I wasn't allowing myself to be unhappy in a situation where so many people wanted it.

[46:47] Leah Walsh: Right.

[46:48] Jeff Sykes: Does that make sense? And I was miserable, and I felt sh***y for being miserable because I was like, so many people want to be here.

[46:57] Leah Walsh: Right.

[46:57] Jeff Sykes: But I didn't allow myself to go, well, you don't want to be here, Jeff. So that's all that matters.

[47:04] Leah Walsh: It's like what you want. So now that you're out of that situation, you feel like you can build your life from the ground up for what you want.

[47:11] Jeff Sykes: Yeah. And I also think that without that situation, I would not be where I am. So I wouldn't know what I want.

[47:17] Leah Walsh: And I'm actually really an experience that you needed, but now you're out of it.

[47:20] Jeff Sykes: And I'm grateful for that situation.

[47:23] Leah Walsh: Yeah, totally.

[47:25] Jeff Sykes: Yeah. I'm grateful for pretty much everything that's happened in my life because it's allowed me to have a perspective. You know, that's a great thing about the past. It gives you perspective.

[47:33] Leah Walsh: But some people, yeah.

[47:37] Jeff Sykes: It's fascinating when people don't realize that and they let the past constantly influence their future. Cause if you think about it, you're always creating your story. And your story is like what you add to that narrative. And it's what we're adding right now. Like we're adding to each other's stories. Like we're adding to a reality. But if I was, but we could, we could be creating a very different reality if we choose to have a different perspective. You know, if we were bringing that outside world in with us today or like a commentary on our experiences.

[48:11] Leah Walsh: Yeah.

[48:12] Jeff Sykes: And I don't know. I guess I'm just choosing to make my story better.

[48:18] Leah Walsh: I don't know. It's amazing. We just want more, right? It's like that commercial, the T-Mobile commercial with the little kids. Did you see that one?

[48:25] Jeff Sykes: Oh, we're gonna have to, if you weren't, we were gonna have to you to that later. I was like, okay, we'll do that.

[48:33] Leah Walsh: No, because we really got to know each other. We were teaching at Juilliard in New Orleans. I'm like, have you done a lot of that kind of like teaching and outreach stuff since school?

[48:41] Jeff Sykes: I haven't. I would want to get back into it now.

[48:45] Leah Walsh: I want to get back into it too.

[48:47] Jeff Sykes: Um, and I'm actually in talks with some organizations to be working with that sort of on the ground level.

[48:53] Leah Walsh: Mm-hmm, like get back into it.

[48:56] Jeff Sykes: Yeah, but I found myself having to be a little more selfish because now I'm responsible for myself.

[49:04] Leah Walsh: Yeah.

[49:05] Jeff Sykes: You know, and it's a lot of money to do that type of work.

[49:10] Leah Walsh: I mean, it's, it's no, it's almost always volunteer.

[49:13] Jeff Sykes: Yeah, and I, I don't know. It's volunteer, and then you also have to put your life on hold and be able to sort of keep your life going when you leave, especially living in New York City, because it's just bananas here with how much money we pay.

[49:29] Leah Walsh: Um, I wanted, I'm, I, it's sad to say I'm not involved in things like that.

[49:35] Jeff Sykes: Okay, I was just curious.

[49:36] Leah Walsh: Yeah.

[49:36] Jeff Sykes: Okay, well we both want to get back involved in the world.

[49:39] Leah Walsh: Well, because I feel like that's one of the most important things as being an artist is allowing, is giving back to young people or just the community where they wouldn't, like putting art in unexpected places because that gives people just that memory of art and it makes art real to them. It doesn't make it something that they learned in a textbook, it makes it real, it makes it tactile. You know, like all those performances we had in that construction site or at those public schools, like that put art in their eyeballs and it made them see it up close and personal, and that it can never be erased, and we exposed it to them and it's always for that. And I don't know how they're, how those students interpret it or what my students in the literacy program at Juilliard was involved in, like what they're doing now, but I know that I exposed them to something. And you know, maybe I plant a seed where it'll germinate in something pretty cool. But I don't know. I don't, I don't know. But I was glad that I was able to there to make an impact.

[50:42] Leah Walsh: Do you know what I mean?

[50:42] Jeff Sykes: Oh yeah.

[50:43] Leah Walsh: But I ha, I have been doing a very cool outreach program at Lincoln Center.

[50:47] Jeff Sykes: Really?

[50:48] Leah Walsh: Um, yeah, with former alums Jen Jenna Pollock.

[50:51] Jeff Sykes: Okay, I think she told me about this, but please.

[50:53] Leah Walsh: Donna Borer and Gray Song. Uh, we did a, Donald Bohr was commissioned to do a program for young children introducing them about ballet and dance. And he took divertissement music for scenic change movement from Sleeping Beauty and made Grim Brothers Grim fairy tales out of it.

[51:05] Jeff Sykes: Oh cool.

[51:14] Leah Walsh: So we did A Red Riding Hood, Sleeping Beauty, Hansel and Gretel. Um, and he talked about pantomime and he was in the narrator of it, and he had like a slideshow and we had different props.

[51:29] Jeff Sykes: Like I was the wolf and I had a little mask, and then I was the prince and I had a cape with the crown. And we taught the children about dance and how to express your feelings through movement and how to use your body to express my emotions. So they could amazing. Yeah, it was actually amazing because I saw after being a part of the show for a year, I went to see ABT a couple of times this spring season. I had a friend in the show, and I was like, Oh, this is what ballet pantomime is. I can actually follow it. Cool. I know what's going on now. Who were the kids? Like how did the audience wind up at the show? Um, they were bust in. It was part of their like school groups? Yeah. So it was field trips.

Um Lincoln Center has this great educational outreach component, and schools sign up for it. And they have teaching artists that go into the schools and talk about what they're gonna do in the performance and the kids already knew about dance and the Brothers Grimm and it was great. You know, and that was really, really powerful and hearing them be like, What's your favorite dance move? Do you like being the wolf? Or what my favorite question was, These are my bangs. That was the best I don't know. It's like dance is like a unicorn in reality. Like you don't really meet that many dancers. You meet a lot of former dancers. Yeah, but like it's an amazing thing. I just want more dance out there.

Like if you're out there listening, just do a little dance party. Just put on I really wish that dance, like social dance were still a part of our culture. I mean people go to clubs and dance at weddings and stuff, but like partner dancing, like social ballroom dancing, just like casual dancing with a partner, it's not really a thing anymore. No. And I really wish it were. It's so much fun. Yes. And it gives people this physical way to relate to each other in this social setting. It is lacking. It puts something special in the air. Yeah. 'Cause when you go to a club, like first of all you can't hear anything. You can't see anything and you can't move, right? Or if you are dancing with someone it's very sexual and like grinding or whatever.

Or twerking. Or twerking that's what our generation is known for. Um like I was lucky enough, like when I was a young teenager, there was the guy at my friend's church who was a retired Arthur Murray instructor. Oh and he did a whole ballroom dance class every Sunday for this whole group of homeschooled teenagers. And it was great. And so we all got to learn to dance together. We my brother and I ended up swing dancing together for years and it really like saved our relationship. Um and it was so much fun to have something like that to do with your friends where like you all know the secret code and you can work together to do this cool thing.

[53:01] Leah Walsh: It's community.

[54:31] Jeff Sykes: Yeah. And it's joy. Like in ancient cultures, a lot of them didn't have a differentiation between music and dance. They had the same word. Hmm. So I don't know. But now it seems like you have to be a trained dancer like you to dance. Like people, just normal people don't always allow themselves to dance.

[54:56] Leah Walsh: Well, I think it's because a lot of people have the perception of themselves dancing and they're scared that they're gonna look silly. When actually whenever I see someone dancing, I usually am inspired to have fun because they're having fun and I want to have fun.

[55:11] Jeff Sykes: Yeah. Like as a dancer, I celebrate when anyone dances. And they're like I always find it so weird when people go, Oh, you're gonna make me look bad. I went, No. What? Huh? No, we're just doing dance moves. I encourage everyone to find their life dancer within them. You know, like being a life dancer, like just always finding a groove. Because you dancing in your room by yourself to your iPod shuffle or what have you is powerful. And like I have dance parties in my room.

[55:11] Leah Walsh: No, me too.

[55:48] Jeff Sykes: Yeah. Put on Zem Beyoncé. Whatever. I just wish it were more of a normal thing.

[55:54] Leah Walsh: I think that it is more normal. I don't think that people talk about their underwear dance parties in front of their mirror.

[56:01] Jeff Sykes: Well, I'm not talking about the underwear dance parties. I wish it were more of like a normal social thing.

[56:07] Leah Walsh: Yeah. I mean I to I totally unabashedly.

[56:12] Jeff Sykes: Yeah. Because I would go dancing every single night. I think I would too. That would be so much fun. That'd be great. Um, are there any things that like books or certain albums or movies that you turn to over and over again to kind of take yourself out of the dark side? Like things that you find yourself rereading or listening to on repeat that kind of lift you up.

[56:36] Jeff Sykes: Um I've been listening to a lot of um Aaron Copeland. Okay. Uh for some reason whenever I listen to his music, I feel American and I feel proud to be a dancer making work in America because it's a culture that doesn't celebrate the art form as much as it's not like in culturally embedded in our society as it is in Europe. So that's something that I've I don't know why I get like a I feel safe when I listen to his music because it's it makes me think of canyons and open space and Martha Graham and like Agnes DeMille and these wonderful dance creators that are American, you know? Um and then a lot of Rumi poetry that that always makes me feel great because it's it's simple, it's lovely, it's about nature, and it's real.

[57:43] Leah Walsh: And I've been watching a lot of like dramatic things on HBO or Netflix. Like television series. I've just been really getting into that. I just finished Sense8.

[57:58] Jeff Sykes: Mm-hmm. I haven't watched it yet, but I find that really interesting. I I'm just really interested about the human condition. Like Orange is the New Black was really great. Uh I just really like both of their programming. I think it's really interesting. It's out of the box. I feel like I can never find those story arcs. I like getting so much good stuff on TV right now.

[58:18] Leah Walsh: Yeah, I like getting lost in a narrative. 'Cause uh I really like relating to a character for some reason. Whereas before I used to be very uninterested in watching things. I think 'cause I was a little bit more of a narcissist back in the day. But now it's it makes me feel a little less weird when I see someone going when I see a character going through a struggle. It makes me deal with my troubles more easily. Cause I empathize.

[58:47] Jeff Sykes: Like it allows me to be empathetic to myself and also to my friends. Cause I feel like I'm I feel like with television, especially with what's being created now with such great unique programming. Like like House of Cards, like just like blew my mind. You know, and I really felt I really felt a real raw emotion watching like Kevin Spacey going through this sick world. And that I don't know, it was great to feel something while watching entertain wh while watching my computer. Is more inspiring to me than seeing a play. Like seeing it dance, I'll be so much more inspired for some reason at certain points.

[59:39] Leah Walsh: I wonder if it's the same sometimes.

[59:40] Jeff Sykes: Like seeing something seeing a story told in a different way than dance. Can like take you out of your own sphere.

[59:47] Leah Walsh: Yeah, I definitely think that's true. A lot of s um my friend of mine, Dominic, um, he wonderful dancer. He was saying how he whenever he goes to see a dance show now, he's in a bad habit of falling asleep. Um which I find really interesting.

[1:00:06] Jeff Sykes: Huh. Just because it's like sometimes you become within your art form, you become so jaded to it.

[1:00:11] Leah Walsh: Yeah you can't even appreciate it.

[1:00:13] Jeff Sykes: Or you're picking it apart or whatever it is. Or also the art that you're seeing on stage might be, I don't know. Do you ever find that sometimes you're watching stage and you're like, okay, I know you're technical, like I know you got the chops. But why? Why is it why why is this going on? It seems so derivative and it's like you already need to be in the club in order to understand what's going on on stage. And that seems backwards to me. Because didn't didn't we really try to bring art to the people?

[1:00:48] Leah Walsh: And what is it?

[1:00:49] Jeff Sykes: Isn't that a thing? Isn't like without the audience like you have to be in the club to

[1:00:50] Leah Walsh: Yeah. Is there anything that you've seen in the last couple months that you'd like to recommend?

[1:01:01] Jeff Sykes: I would see I would say go see then she fell. Which I've heard.

[1:01:07] Leah Walsh: Yeah.

[1:01:08] Jeff Sykes: It's fantastic. And they're actually opening a new show, um, The Grand Paradise in the fall. I would say go see that. Um that's with the third rail. Third rare project. Um I would I would say go see any immersive theater. I would see I would say go see it. I think that that is a great art form that is for today's society.

[1:01:34] Leah Walsh: Me too.

[1:01:34] Jeff Sykes: I think that I especially with like everyone I feel like everyone has their own avatar now with their cell phone. Like everyone has an extension of themselves. So they're creating a brand online, they have a social presence, what have you. I mean I think peop yeah, people have an identity that's larger than what it used to be. And immersive theater allows the individual to be their star of their universe. And I think that that places the audience in a powerful position 'cause they get to choose what they want to see and that's what they want. They want to choose, they want to have power. They don't want to be sitting in a seat being told what to look out. They wanna they're curious, they want to explore, they wanna they wanna be shocked, they wanna be inspired, they wanna be curious.

[1:02:16] Leah Walsh: They wanna be involved.

[1:02:17] Jeff Sykes: Yes, they wanna unlock it. You know, because the phone is so easy now. But when you're like when you're in an audience of Sleep No More, you have to fight to see the performers. You have to you have to work to see the show, and that's a part of the thrill, the vigor of it.

[1:02:36] Leah Walsh: Yeah, I think of course when we when I leave this interview, I'm gonna have a million things to talk about.

[1:02:44] Jeff Sykes: Um I would also say I recommend the Magicians trilogy. I forget who it's by, but it's it's like a post, it's like a real life Hogwarts postgraduate. It's very, very, very cool.

[1:03:00] Leah Walsh: Wait, it's a show or it's books.

[1:03:01] Jeff Sykes: It's a book. It's coming out on Showtime. They're m they made a show out of it.

[1:03:05] Leah Walsh: Yeah. Well, thank you so much for talking with me. I had so much fun. I really appreciate it.

[1:03:25] Leah Walsh: Thank you for listening to the Compass Podcast. I'm Leah Walsh. More episodes are coming soon. Please look for us on Facebook in iTunes. I'd like to thank the following people for their generosity. The Compass cover art is by Kim Miller, music by Brendan Speth, audio assistance from Nick Choxy, and a special thanks to Frankie J. Alvarez. See you next time.