This transcript was automatically generated and might contain errors.

[0:00] Leah Walsh: Hi, and welcome to The Compass, the podcast documenting the struggles of life as an artist.

[0:05] Leah Walsh: I'm Leah Walsh.

[0:07] Leah Walsh: My guests today are Casey Killoran and David Tyson Lam.

[0:10] Leah Walsh: This is the first time I'm having two people on at once.

[0:13] Leah Walsh: They are an artistic team of filmmakers.

[0:16] Leah Walsh: Casey is an actress and producer, and David is a director and producer.

[0:20] Leah Walsh: They just did their first feature film together called Viral Beauty, which is how I first met them.

[0:25] Leah Walsh: A mutual friend had recommended me when they needed someone last minute for a small scene last year.

[0:29] Leah Walsh: I'm very happy to be getting to know them better and their artistic process as well.

[0:33] Leah Walsh: They are very proactive about making their own work, which I love.

[0:37] Leah Walsh: If you have a chance this week, please rate and review the podcast in the iTunes store.

[0:41] Leah Walsh: It will help other artists to find us in the future.

[0:44] Leah Walsh: Thank you for that.

[0:45] Leah Walsh: I hope you enjoy the 53rd episode of The Compass.

[1:05] Casey Killoran: And what does the dark side look like for you?

[1:07] David Tyson Lam: Oh god, the dark side.

[1:09] Casey Killoran: Uh coffee. It's a good thing. Um, well, I guess doing my own work definitely is something that I've learned is not only good for I guess my career, quote unquote, but um it's good for my sanity, because it can feel out of control and it can feel like you don't have any say, or you're kind of the bottom of the totem pole being an actor sometimes, like you're the last peg.

[1:41] Casey Killoran: So um having a lot of like creative control over your own work has helped me along the way.

[1:50] Casey Killoran: And it's made me it's it's it it's made me like have connections with other people in a way that I would not have if I was just an actor.

[2:00] David Tyson Lam: That you might be more isolated.

[2:01] Casey Killoran: Oh yeah, yeah, definitely.

[2:04] Casey Killoran: I mean it's just you and the script, you go to the audition, you might get the call back, but it's like you in your head all the time.

[2:10] Casey Killoran: So actually reaching out and creating things with other people in all aspects, not just actors, but editors, sound people, you know, sound designers, composers, like these other places that you don't have to go if you're an actor, just an actor.

[2:31] Casey Killoran: So I mean, and there's nothing wrong with just being an actor. Like that's what I label myself as.

[2:41] David Tyson Lam: Yeah, just to second that as well. I think being in control of your own projects is a huge way in which we both fight the dark side, so to speak.

[2:51] David Tyson Lam: Because it's incredibly rewarding, right? It's like you're collaborating with others, you're learning about music, lighting, and all of these other things that are very visceral, and so you can't be in your head.

[3:02] David Tyson Lam: So I think that being able to collaborate with other people in a way that feels very visceral and palpable is a very good way of grounding like both of us.

[3:11] David Tyson Lam: And um, my dark side is usually when I have like no aim and I'm kind of like um rolling the dice constantly and like gambling and you know, banking on chance versus like actually taking action in my own life and doing things.

[3:27] Casey Killoran: You mean with auditions and stuff?

[3:28] David Tyson Lam: Or that you just hadn't committed yourself to an idea.

[3:31] David Tyson Lam: Um well, I actually no longer act.

[3:34] Casey Killoran: Yeah.

[3:35] David Tyson Lam: I was quite asking about that.

[3:36] David Tyson Lam: Um I do do some hand acting.

[3:38] Casey Killoran: Like if we need a hand to like pass papers in the frame, I'll do that.

[3:42] David Tyson Lam: Um acting.

[3:44] Casey Killoran: Yes.

[3:45] David Tyson Lam: Uh hand acting.

[3:47] David Tyson Lam: Um, but no, it's just like in general with anything, like my dark side just looks like when I don't have an aim and I'm sort of like banking on chance.

[3:55] Casey Killoran: Yeah.

[3:56] David Tyson Lam: And then it starts to become that lodges me in my head, and I start to get lost in superstition versus like what's actually out here.

[4:03] Casey Killoran: Right.

[4:04] David Tyson Lam: Yeah.

[4:04] Leah Walsh: And so you guys went to grad school together for acting.

[4:08] Casey Killoran: Mm-hmm.

[4:09] Leah Walsh: And at least to my presumption, you guys have been functioning as a creative team for the last couple of years, or is that did that start at school?

[4:20] David Tyson Lam: It started at school.

[4:20] Casey Killoran: Um I took two years off during school and I graduated with a different class.

[4:24] Casey Killoran: So I was in David's class for my first two years.

[4:27] David Tyson Lam: But we started when I mean like when did we start?

[4:32] Casey Killoran: 2000 and I mean our I would say like our official official like first collaboration was when we were both sort of out um outside of school.

[4:41] David Tyson Lam: And the official one.

[4:42] Casey Killoran: But we were always he was always doing films and I wrote really.

[4:42] David Tyson Lam: Yeah, he wrote me into some of his films and I was his roommate, so I would be helping him also um with like small things, small things.

[4:58] David Tyson Lam: Yeah, like I did um I did a short and I would sort of constantly go to Casey as sort of my viewer and then sort of test it on her, and then she would give her comments.

[5:08] David Tyson Lam: And because we were actors, we'd we had a certain way of talking with each other.

[5:11] Casey Killoran: It's like I don't want to offend you, but you know, so it was like it sort of started off really well because we just knew how to communicate.

[5:18] David Tyson Lam: Yeah, I think we had a similar vocabulary going to the same program that we did weren't even really aware of.

[5:24] David Tyson Lam: So when we started making our own stuff that came out, like we were direct without being harsh.

[5:32] Casey Killoran: So um yeah, which is something that you're constantly um when you're dealing with new people sometimes, you can be like, Oh, I don't want to offend them, like I'll just like beat around this, and then you waste like a whole day of not actually achieving what you want.

[5:47] David Tyson Lam: Um so we were able to work like quick and efficiently and actually enjoy um the process because we weren't tiptoeing, I guess.

[5:55] Casey Killoran: But yeah, we did our first official thing when we graduated.

[5:58] David Tyson Lam: But I mean I did a short.

[5:58] Casey Killoran: Yes, I did a short quote unquote short.

[6:04] David Tyson Lam: You helped me so we took like these baby steps and then it and then we took a big leap with the feature.

[6:11] Casey Killoran: Yeah.

[6:11] David Tyson Lam: Which was actually a short in the first, and then we stopped that and went and did the feature.

[6:17] Casey Killoran: The writer came back and was like, Oh, I wrote a feature.

[6:21] David Tyson Lam: Would you uh would you want to do that?

[6:24] Casey Killoran: Like, oh uh she turned it into a feature.

[6:26] David Tyson Lam: That's a whole big process.

[6:28] Casey Killoran: Let's sure, sure.

[6:29] David Tyson Lam: And you just decided to jump off the cliff and yeah, yeah.

[6:33] Casey Killoran: I tried to like do things that make me terrified sometimes.

[6:38] Casey Killoran: I find that living with stuff in my head, like I said before, is the worst place for me.

[6:43] Casey Killoran: Especially if I'm afraid of it.

[6:45] Casey Killoran: So if I just throw myself out there and do it, it's very therapeutic to me to like actually face that fear, try to do something that makes me scared at least once a day.

[6:58] David Tyson Lam: Yeah, and also too, it's far once you start doing it, you realize that um like ever like this has been done before, so it becomes less scary.

[7:08] David Tyson Lam: It's like other people have done feature films before.

[7:10] Casey Killoran: Other people have, you know.

[7:12] David Tyson Lam: For the first time for the first time yeah so everything exactly so it's like life affirming because it's like oh no actually that fear or that thing that I thought we couldn't do we're doing it and we're not dying so which is excellent it's like great this is such a free fall oh my god we're okay like that's the most like life affirming thing I think is realizing oh you know we can do it.

[7:36] Leah Walsh: Yeah.

[7:37] Leah Walsh: Um I want to talk more about the process of trying to make the feature but um what do you find so appealing about working in film or having that be the medium that you're able to create your own work is it just more immediate than theater or what draws you to that storytelling?

[7:37] David Tyson Lam: I I think that uh well, I mean just fundamentally if you don't have good performances in a film it becomes very hard to connect and so I think that uh whatever I do anyways I'm always looking out for performance and I always really care about the actors and making sure that they feel very natural in front of the camera and you know that they feel free enough to try things um so I'd say like the acting part of it is always there it's always present for me.

[8:23] David Tyson Lam: Um but I think I'm starting to in our next feature film we're starting to veer more into using the camera to tell the story and using the visuals to tell the story.

[8:34] David Tyson Lam: So we're more invested in I guess the art of filmmaking which is sort of opening up all of these uh avenues um how do you use image to strike people um, how do you use montage to strike people?

[8:49] David Tyson Lam: Um you know, music.

[8:51] David Tyson Lam: How do you use all these other elements that surround the performance to build a world?

[8:57] Casey Killoran: And that part we haven't done yet, I don't think fully.

[9:00] David Tyson Lam: No, no, we haven't really explored that.

[9:03] David Tyson Lam: I mean we've really focused on storytelling and acting for the for the most part with our with our work and had good images, but they were supporting.

[9:14] David Tyson Lam: It wasn't the images telling the story as well.

[9:17] Casey Killoran: So in this new we're looking at our next feature.

[9:21] Casey Killoran: So um in this next one that's kind of what we're doing.

[9:24] Casey Killoran: We just re-watched The Shining and Misery last night.

[9:28] David Tyson Lam: It was a Stephen King film.

[9:32] Casey Killoran: We were kings.

[9:33] David Tyson Lam: Uh yes.

[9:35] David Tyson Lam: Um which are very like great performances, but the world is told in this very twisted cinematic way that definitely supports and in a way that sometimes you don't even notice.

[9:50] Casey Killoran: I mean, in misery, we were noticing how like the first time that Kathy Bates character says something that's weird, that's the first time you see an angle of the camera that's weird.

[10:02] David Tyson Lam: So it's just these little things that you don't like.

[10:05] David Tyson Lam: I didn't notice that the first time I watched it, but when you're actually like, okay, we're gonna try to do something like maybe along these lines, we're not sure yet, we're researching, but oh okay, that makes sense.

[10:14] Casey Killoran: Like those that like those things are interesting.

[10:17] Leah Walsh: Um and so have you guys kind of just given yourself your own training as far as working with the camera and using all the equipment and just experimented on the way, or did you end up taking any classes and stuff in that?

[10:29] Casey Killoran: Um, well, we have a really great collaborator that we work with.

[10:32] David Tyson Lam: Um she's our DP.

[10:34] Casey Killoran: And you've met her actually when you're on set, and she's great.

[10:37] Casey Killoran: She's like she's fantastic.

[10:38] David Tyson Lam: She has such great taste, and um she has taught us a lot about like lighting and the basal.

[10:47] Casey Killoran: Anna Bissold.

[10:48] David Tyson Lam: She's German.

[10:49] Casey Killoran: Um she's taught us a lot.

[10:52] Casey Killoran: I mean, she went to the MFA program at Tisch, and so she sort of like whenever we do a project, she brings so much um valuable insight into how to make something stunning or how to make something scary or how to like avoid uh common sort of pitfalls.

[11:09] David Tyson Lam: So I would say like she right now is our like greatest teacher.

[11:13] Casey Killoran: Um I mean the let me tell you, the first time we did a short I mean the acting was good.

[11:18] David Tyson Lam: Yeah, the acting's not the problem with that.

[11:20] Casey Killoran: The lighting.

[11:21] David Tyson Lam: The lighting was the issue, the camera work was the issue, the fact that every image was out of focus was the issue.

[11:29] Casey Killoran: There's so many detail.

[11:30] David Tyson Lam: Yeah, there really is.

[11:30] Casey Killoran: Yeah.

[11:31] David Tyson Lam: It's crazy we're learning through actually doing it.

[11:34] Casey Killoran: Yeah.

[11:34] David Tyson Lam: And also too realizing that there's certain things we can't do, like we can't compose, we can't color our own future.

[11:41] Casey Killoran: You know, we are moving away from editing, so we're hiring editors for the last couple of projects we hired editors.

[11:48] Casey Killoran: So now we're just focusing on coordinating the pieces and the puzzle rather than trying to do it all. Because other people can do that. And it's like and won it and really love it, you know. We were just doing it to be like not only like budget wise, but it's like, oh well, we're like self contained and we're gonna be able to do this all by ourselves. And it's like but we're actually really not enjoying it that much. Like it's actually a grilling process that we're not having any happiness with it.

[12:16] David Tyson Lam: Yeah.

[12:16] Casey Killoran: It's it's sort of like if it yeah, I had a really bad metaphor, but it faded. Anyways. So you guys, the feature that you've made, you finished last year, or you're submitting it now.

[12:30] David Tyson Lam: Yeah, we're submitting it now. We've probably finished like um, I don't know. When do when did it get finished? Or finished is probably a terrible word.

[12:39] Casey Killoran: Yeah, it's like it's it's hard to use. We finished we wrapped, we rapped on set over a year ago.

[12:45] David Tyson Lam: Yeah, a little over a year ago. Um Wow. It's called viral beauty viral beauty.

[12:52] Casey Killoran: Right. And I mean, I guess the thing that I'm really curious about is, and then I think other people who might want to do this too would be interested, is like how have you managed to be producers and what's the fundraising like, and where did you even start?

[13:07] David Tyson Lam: Yeah, because that's seems overwhelming to me. Like the actual like artistic like filming and everything, I understand, but the the larger thing, how's that going?

[13:17] Casey Killoran: Yeah. Well, I think that I think a couple things with that. I think that's one of the things that we we've talked a lot about budget. We've talked a lot about like being overwhelmed by the idea that it takes you know 50 million dollars to create a film, and that being something that actually is more of a perception than it is than it is a reality. Um, you know, I think that uh obviously there's certain crowdsourcing uh platforms like Kickstarter, for example, or C in Spark that are great for raising funds.

[13:51] David Tyson Lam: Um, but actually the technology that is required in order to create a film is so relatively inexpensive to where it was 10 years ago that you can like purchase it uh a DSLR or rent a DSLR and get amazing footage out of it if you have a good DP who knows lighting. And you know, you it's surprisingly not as expensive as you think it is, but you do have to hustle for that first X grant in order to just get people on board, other artists that you want to collaborate with.

[14:26] Casey Killoran: So that's the part that is I think essential. The part that's not essential is like spending, I don't know, like 50 grand, 100 grand on renting a red camera. You know what I mean? It's just a box. If you know like seriously, if you have no story, you have don't have people that are on the same mind frame as you with telling that story and with you know skill and talent, it's just a box, it's just a really expensive box.

[14:54] David Tyson Lam: Yeah, so I think I think determining what you actually need becomes incredibly exciting because you realize that with just a bit of hustling for like a month or two, you can get those things. So if it's a camera or if it's like a collaborator reaching out to your network, I mean, we're so incredibly privileged because I mean, Juilliard, NYU, these are like there's so many artists. We're in New York. So there's almost like no excuse if you have an idea to not reach out, you know what I mean?

[15:23] Casey Killoran: Even shooting in New York, like New York City is so cheap compared to other cities. It is $300 to get a permit unlimited time. Like it's these little things that you learn when you're producing and and reading about these laws and contracts that you're like, holy crap, like this is actually very doable. We're in this, we're in New York City. It's $300 to get a permit, and we can film you know with a crew of under five for three hundred dollars anywhere that's not a red quote unquote red zone.

[15:54] David Tyson Lam: So let's utilize this. Let's make these shots gorgeous. We have a backdrop that will make it look like we spent twenty times that so that's what you do it's just a matter of getting through all of the the fine print yeah to figure out what you're actually yeah yeah and that's it that's the intimidating part I would say but I mean network is I mean obviously everyone says that but one person can open the door like actually reaching out to one person and that you actually connect with and them knowing uh all these other people is is something that I think that we got with our DP in the beginning and then it spread our network from that.

[16:37] Casey Killoran: Yeah you just have to be fearless about asking for what you need.

[16:41] David Tyson Lam: Mm-hmm.

[16:42] Casey Killoran: Everyone is kind of doing that. We've been told no yeah a lot a lot yeah so and then you get the one person that says yes and then everyone else turns around and we're like wait um I meant to say yes.

[16:56] David Tyson Lam: Like you're like oh well too late. Or you've all went to your spam okay just yeah everyone is trying to you know everyone wants to take a risk but it's it's risky and if they don't know you it's they have to trust in that part of themselves and so a lot of people have tr uh have trouble with that and I do too sometimes I'm not gonna like throw a couple of grand at a project that I don't know anyone in.

[17:23] Casey Killoran: Like wonder why would I do that? It doesn't make sense. So I understand the whole process of fundraising and oh come back to me when you have another person. You know, like the those things.

[17:37] David Tyson Lam: Like it's a lot of that. Nobody wants to be there first.

[17:40] Casey Killoran: Exactly. But you eventually get it because I mean if you believe in your story and you're energetic about pitching it, the people respond to that. Even if they aren't willing to open their wallets in the moment, you it you stay in there somewhere in their subconscious.

[17:56] David Tyson Lam: And as we're learning with social media and like putting our work actually out there, people follow, and we're hoping that those people will in the future, uh when they've seen the film or they are you know following us, um, down the line will, you know, want to participate in some way, like financing or whatever.

[18:15] Casey Killoran: I mean it's important to put your stuff out there so people can see, especially being an independent independent filmmakers. So but you have to make sure the stuff that you put out is the quality that you want to be representating, you know.

[18:28] David Tyson Lam: So like this is something that I'm working on now that I feel good at. I'll put that out there. But I look back at some stuff that I'm like, oh god, I wish I didn't put that out there.

[18:37] Casey Killoran: But fine line of like you just want to like throw this up.

[18:41] David Tyson Lam: Yeah, exactly.

[18:42] Casey Killoran: Like what will stick back about.

[18:44] David Tyson Lam: Yeah, sometimes David has to reel me in. I'm like, I'll just put this up. And he's like, no, okay, don't do that.

[18:50] David Tyson Lam: Yeah.

[18:51] Casey Killoran: Well, in my back of my head, I'm like, there's a delete button. So if we need to delete it, we can delete it.

[18:58] David Tyson Lam: Yes. I'm kind of the person that will like call a bunch of people and like be like, Oh, we got this person that said yes. And they will be like, Okay, um, let's do this X, Y, and C and then try go back at it again.

[19:11] Casey Killoran: Yeah.

[19:11] David Tyson Lam: Yeah. I love this.

[19:14] Casey Killoran: I love that you guys can have this up.

[19:16] David Tyson Lam: Yeah, I'm a little crazy.

[19:19] Casey Killoran: We're actually very willing grace. Like we're very rude.

[19:23] David Tyson Lam: Like I watched that show.

[19:24] Casey Killoran: Please don't say that.

[19:25] David Tyson Lam: Don't just try to.

[19:26] Casey Killoran: And my other really great friend is gonna hate me saying that because she thinks she's grace.

[19:30] David Tyson Lam: And she's Grace.

[19:31] Casey Killoran: She's Grace too. Your Grace.

[19:32] David Tyson Lam: Your Grace as well, A Y.

[19:36] Casey Killoran: Yes.

[19:38] David Tyson Lam: Yeah, what do you what do you feel like your strengths are that you kind of fill in for the other person?

[19:44] Casey Killoran: Um I think I am much more of the like front of lines reach out first person, um, the communicator with a lot of people, the actors, things like that. I I really like I mean David does that as well, but he's kind of like the second second wave.

[20:04] David Tyson Lam: We're going with this army analogy for some reason.

[20:07] Casey Killoran: Yeah, I'm the second general. But yeah, he's um so he'll come in and fine-tune things, you know. But I'll just kind of c I like the big casting net thing.

[20:18] David Tyson Lam: Yeah, and then I think that I I actually enjoy the planning. I like the organization and I like this yeah, and the strategy, and I think every part of the filmmaking process is like its own little art, whether it's literally the filmmaking or it's the marketing or it's the financing part, all of it feels like a craft and art.

[20:37] Casey Killoran: So that I find very like positive and enjoyable, whereas I think David doesn't like that so much.

[20:42] David Tyson Lam: No, I don't. Like organizing and the finesse.

[20:46] Casey Killoran: Um I'm like okay with it, but I'm like the scout, like I'll go out location scouting. Like I really like the the foot to pavement sort of stuff. And also too, like we I mean, with viral and a lot of our other projects, uh, my sister, uh who's also who wrote the piece, Viral Beauty yes I realized that okay she wrote it and um Does she live here too?

[21:08] David Tyson Lam: No, she's uh in Toronto, so she's like a data scientist uh by day and then writer by night kind of thing and she's like fabulous and what she brings to the mix is like an extreme sort of business sense.

[21:21] Casey Killoran: Yeah so we it's nice because it's yeah because it's like she's looking at the business end of things she's very savvy and uh has a more conservative approach which which is great and then I'm kind of like I like to organize things and then Casey loves to reach out.

[21:38] David Tyson Lam: So it's a nice Bermuda triangle.

[21:41] Casey Killoran: Yeah hopefully no one dies there ever been moments where you wandered into the middle of that Bermuda triangle and like you've had to figure out a way to get over a disagreement or it it has a shared language of school helped you guys get through the parts of collaborating.

[21:57] David Tyson Lam: All the time film festivals that we are we want to submit to like how who I mean there's like waivers things like do we approach this person do we go to this person do we I mean I can't think of anything that we haven't had like a discussion on.

[22:16] Casey Killoran: Yeah I think there's almost on every aspect of the film there were moments where it got very heated you know whether it was the writing or like on set or in the editing room or you know with the marketing and figuring out which festivals we want to target.

[22:32] David Tyson Lam: There's always disagreements and the only thing the only save in grace is really that we just respect each other and we don't go too far.

[22:41] Casey Killoran: We take a break and take a moment.

[22:43] David Tyson Lam: Yeah yeah we walk away from the situation.

[22:46] Casey Killoran: We we walk away try again and try again later. Or we, you know, I've learned David is the director, so he is the director.

[22:54] David Tyson Lam: It's his final say.

[22:56] Casey Killoran: If David takes on editing, he's the editor.

[22:58] David Tyson Lam: Oh shit, he has final say.

[23:01] Casey Killoran: I am the producer, so I can come in as well. But then I get scared. But I have to I he I have trusted him with the creative aspect of that.

[23:12] David Tyson Lam: So and I do. Sometimes I am like, I have no idea where the hell David's going.

[23:17] Casey Killoran: Like I really don't know.

[23:21] David Tyson Lam: Don't worry, he's going.

[23:22] Casey Killoran: I do hide it. But I trust him because I've seen the outcome so many times and they've surpassed what I could have imagined.

[23:31] David Tyson Lam: So thank you.

[23:33] Casey Killoran: Oh, well, let's just compliment each other for the rest of this time. I don't know, I've never told you that before. Wow, that's an embarrassment. Um, but I will say though that if something isn't working with Casey, that really bothers me. And if something isn't working with my sister, that really bothers me. Something isn't working with my DP, that really bothers me. So I take their word very, very seriously. Because it's like if I'm getting it, great, but if it's not landing on somebody who wants the project to work, yes, then that becomes an issue. So I think that's actually the thing that reels me in front in conflict. It's like actually, if they're not getting it, maybe there's something I need to adjust or need to listen.

[24:20] Leah Walsh: Um, I wanted to ask about where you reached from and your families. That's amazing that your sister also has this artistic outlet in writing. Yeah, how do they react to you guys being artists? Are there other artistic folks in your family? Have they seen the film?

[24:36] Casey Killoran: Um, yes, uh, I'll I'm from Staten Island, but um half my family's Irish, so like half my family's real New York and the other half is really, really Irish. Um, I have an uncle who's an actor, so Jimmy Burke is his name. He kind of I guess introduced my family to well, there's the arts and people sometimes do that. So they this is a career. Um, a lot of people in my family when they were younger did not a lot, but a couple were like, I want to be an actor, and then stopped. A lot of them did teaching instead. Yeah. So um, but he was kind of one that's taken it his whole life and it's his career. So they were a familiar too, like there was a familiarity to that, but I uh I was kind of the new person from my dad's side to do that, and he I don't know if he understands it that much, but he it doesn't fight me at all with it.

He's just like what are you what are you doing? You know, like what are you doing today? And then I'll try to explain it to him and he's like, Oh, I just saw this movie. Did you see this movie? Like you know, he'll try to connect with that. But um, yeah, they've watched the movie. My grandma's like, I don't understand the Skype screen. Like she doesn't even say Skype, she's like, What's with this you know, because it's told in all different types of venue like the um electronic media stuff. But um, but they are very supportive. I mean my mom is extremely supportive. She should have she should be a producer. Yeah, but she's great. She's on it. She owns her in her own insurance company. So she's an entrepreneur. Yeah. So she's very much has that mind frame. She would actually be really good at it, but that's so cool that you're since you're from here too, you have that support nearby.

[26:29] Casey Killoran: Yeah, yeah. And my uncle being an actor here too, so I kind of have that as well. He means he's helped us. He was in one of our first shorts. He was great in it. Yeah, he was amazing. So yeah, we definitely have a nice network for that.

[26:44] David Tyson Lam: And then I hail from Canada. So I'm up north. It's sort of in the Toronto area. And I started off doing math and computer science. That was sort of like my major and my undergraduate. And then I started taking acting classes. And that just sort of like blew my mind.

[27:04] Casey Killoran: During undergrad?

[27:05] David Tyson Lam: During undergrad. And then I auditioned for Tish kind of on a whim. I mean, this sounds silly to say. I would love to say that I was inspired by the fact that Ang Lee went to Tish, but no, it was because Mary-Kate and Ashley Olsen went to Tish. And I was like, what is Tish? And then I was like, oh, they have an acting program. I've got to apply. And so I applied. I got in, and I was like, wow, crap, this is awesome. And so I did a whole like career switch. Moved to New York. Lived in New York. And then, you know, have been sort of straddling the tech scene, which is like I'm a software developer by day and then director by night. Uh, and then uh yeah, got into film because of Edna. And then also to my sister, who's this uh very crazy ambitious, like fantastical writer. We um just started collaborating on a bunch of pieces together. Um, these small little shorts, and then that exploded into this.

[28:08] Casey Killoran: And you're both in tech too.

[28:10] David Tyson Lam: And we're both in tech. And that wasn't something that happened until your adult life. That wasn't something you guys did growing up.

[28:15] Casey Killoran: Uh well, be f I actually when we were like 10, when I was 10, so she would have been like 18 or so, we did these like uh kung fu films. They were awesome. You know, bringing them out of the vault one day. Yeah, we're gonna be a good one. I wanted to. We did these kung fu films like in our backyard, and our costumes were like we would get our cousins to like we'd costume them in in um mattresses and whatnot.

[28:43] David Tyson Lam: You mean like sheets, right?

[28:45] Casey Killoran: Mattress sheets, sorry. Sorry, yes. They were turtles. They were turtles. Um, but yeah, we would do that, and then we'd have like fans blowing, and then like they would jump up and I mean it was a whole production. So I feel like actually the that whole film thing with Liz started very early. Then we had a nice 20-year drought and then came back to it. And then yeah, like I'm here now just doing software development, but then also like all of this film stuff as well.

[29:16] Leah Walsh: And that's great that you have something, a skill that you can use for your day job.

[29:20] David Tyson Lam: Oh, sure. Like give you actual money to survive.

[29:24] Casey Killoran: Sure, yeah. I mean, and also too, like we're like me and my sister are hugely interested in tech and sort of like tech films and how technology can be uh used in film as a sort of a narrative um part of the narrative.

[29:38] David Tyson Lam: Yeah.

[29:39] Casey Killoran: And so we're really interested in like things that are just that feel cutting edge and sort of like really question, like I don't know, Ex Machina, for example. It's like a huge I love that film. Nothing creepy. Yes, and incredibly well written, you know. And her, for example, like that was really I was talking to Casey about that the other day. Just the writing, there's so much more possible. There's so much a whole other set of questions come up when you're dealing with artificial intelligence. So we're really interested in those stories.

[30:09] Leah Walsh: Yeah.

[30:09] David Tyson Lam: So it's interesting that Viral Beauty deals with like I mean I haven't gotten to see the entire film but it deals with like trolling online and social media. The kind of cult fame that's developing right now online.

[30:24] Casey Killoran: Present. Yeah. I mean it's changing all the time but it's a huge problem.

[30:29] David Tyson Lam: Yeah. It's definitely um well it's like is it a problem? Is it not a problem? We I mean we get that question all the time. We're like, do you think social media is beneficial or you know corrupting society?

[30:44] Casey Killoran: Yeah, it's just the anger part of it's definitely there. And it's the one that gets the most attention. So um but yeah that whole whole world but it's it's fantastical. The social media is just this crazy thing that's just like globally taken like it's just taken over. It didn't exist. It didn't exist so like it it's such a baby and it is so everywhere. It is got into every single aspect of our life. So why not make a film about it?

[31:19] David Tyson Lam: Yeah, yeah and I was and also too there's so much social activism that happens over social media which is like so incredible and and frightening, like seeing all of those brut uh police brutality videos. Like I'm not against police or anything like that, but just realizing that that is an experience that is horrific and becoming aware of it and developing a sensitivity towards it. I'm not at a point where I can really comment or make any sort of intelligent remarks on it, but just seeing it and being aware and witnessing that kind of racism is eye-opening. So I think in even if there is there are, you know, really some things that are very negative. I think people are being critical and people are looking at it as fodder for um becoming a better culture. Um definitely has both sides.

[32:14] Casey Killoran: It's I I I view it at the end of the day as education. It's some it's a new form of education for the masses. It's gives people the opportunity to inform themselves thing with things that they would never had the opportunity to before because they just came from this, you know, section of the world and got the media through the TV and the radio and it's very filtered. But this is like this person's raw experience of this online. Who's gonna watch it? Like or just seeing somebody who looks like you do something.

[32:47] David Tyson Lam: Yeah.

[32:48] Casey Killoran: You know, like when YouTube first came out, I think when was this, like 2000? 2010, it was first uh uh dating, and then it was bought by Google?

[32:57] David Tyson Lam: Yeah, Google now was. Well, in 2004.

[33:01] Casey Killoran: Wait, no, uh 2001.

[33:03] David Tyson Lam: Yeah, sorry.

[33:05] Casey Killoran: I was like, crap. That's my dyslexia coming in. Um 2001 it was open, it was a dating site, and then in 2004, Google bought it and was made into a video platform. And I remember thinking, I was in yeah, it was like two thousand one, two thousand and two, 2002. It was the first time I ever saw an Asian male sing with a guitar. And that completely transformed how I saw just myself, like as an artist, as an expressive person. And his name is David Choi, he creates great music. I love him. Um, but I just remember being I was like, God, if YouTube didn't exist, I would have never have seen someone like myself sing a song. That was groundbreaking to me.

[33:51] David Tyson Lam: Yeah.

[33:51] Casey Killoran: And so it's very powerful just in terms of finding people who look like you who are doing things that can open up your eyes to what you could be doing, you know. So I think uh like for me, I've oh it's been overwhelmingly positive. Um, and I hope like I hope social media moves in that realm. Um the negative stuff gets yeah, we can look at it critically.

[34:15] Leah Walsh: Well, and the and with producing your own work that has huge advantages not being able to self-produce. Is there anything that you guys separately or together are really proud of from the last year that you want to tell me about? Like a lesson you've learned, or doesn't have to be like a big thing.

[34:33] David Tyson Lam: You wanna take that?

[34:36] Casey Killoran: Uh, I have a lot. Well, oddly enough, when you said that, um, my gut reaction was just actually my transition into software development. Um, like I had that in my undergraduate, so I've always been a tech person, but for the last seven years, it was like I was just an actor and I was only pursuing acting and not really moving outside of that. And I remember thinking um moving into software development, I was like, okay, I've been freelancing as a web designer, developer for about three years and slowly gaining skills, but I don't yet have a craft.

[35:18] Casey Killoran: Like I'm getting rejected from all of these interviews during the tech test because I just technically wasn't there. And I remember I said to myself, okay, I know what it's like to build a craft because for seven years I've been doing it with acting. So what if I just applied all of that determination, discipline, skill building to this software development, and then I did that for three months, and then I was able to find this fantastic job that I love right now. And like that I'm very proud of because it was through applied and specific effort. And so that felt very life affirming. Very, very life affirming. So that for me is probably this year when I'm very proud of. Um I think that I've learned over the last year the balance between work and my personal life.

Um yeah, and that's something that I'm will, I think for the rest of my life always be balancing, but definitely the break and then releasing the day and going into my personal life is something that I'm starting right now. And it wasn't always like that.

[36:39] David Tyson Lam: That's wonderful. Self-care.

[36:41] Casey Killoran: Self-care.

[36:42] David Tyson Lam: Self-care.

[36:44] Leah Walsh: So, David, I wanted to ask you about um your experience working in New York as someone who's from another country, but getting the visas and all of that. How has that worked for you as an artist?

[36:55] David Tyson Lam: I think probably the fundamental thing to do is to plan and like very, very early on. So if you're like a dancer or you're a filmmaker or an actor in your first year, uh Juilliard or NYU or Pace or wherever, uh to begin thinking about strategic things like press, for example, um certain uh theater companies or uh dance institutions that you would like to work in or intern at, the more experience that you have and with established institutions, I think the greater the chance because ultimately at the end of the day, with a lot of those applications, you know, if you're not Angly or you haven't won an Oscar yet, you have to be able to associate yourself with caliber, quote unquote caliber institutions.

And the more that you do that and the more that you plan for it, the while you're in school, the easier it will be to create an application that has a bit of luster in it. And everybody that I know of who has gotten, for example, their O visa has strategically planned in that way and has worked at, you know, X, Y, and Z and were able to say, Oh, I worked at X, Y, and Z, and so did Meryl Streep, or so did, you know, Billy Crudup or whomever. So it becomes a kind of a association game, and I think that becomes useful. Um and it's also legitimate because literally they did perform there or they did.

[38:23] Casey Killoran: Right, and you can draw that direct line between someone else's experience and yours.

[38:29] David Tyson Lam: Exactly. So I think that becomes like a fundamental thing to think of at the very, very beginning. Otherwise, you're kind of left scrambling for that, like when you graduate, and that's not a good place to be in.

[38:41] Casey Killoran: No, um, and then also your future projects. So you I know you need a trajectory of like three years, they ask. So I've David and I have helped um people that have been looking to stay in the country, um, composers, actors, um, specifically with future projects. So we do plan on making more projects, but it's not, you know, it's these things are not set in stone, they don't have to be, oh well, we have a contract signed already. They you don't have to think of it that way, but um just get people that are kind of credible and okay, they do have some sort of portfolio that you can work with and talk with them, say, would you sponsor me? Would you would are you interested in that? I think that late waiting to the last moment is is uh is very hard and it's anxiety, and you don't get your best work done and you'll just accept any project, and so um but like film is a is a great place for that because theater is so quick um for the most part, but film they could be in pre-production for you know over a year, or we're thinking about doing something in three years, we're not sure yet.

[39:56] David Tyson Lam: One thing that I really regret when I went to NYU is not attending the seminars that the international student associations would run for visas, and as a result of that, I learned about a lot of things very very late, and I know that with like you know, very grueling schedules, it doesn't become very attractive to go to a seminar at like nine in the morning on a Saturday, but that can save you a lot of time and potentially a lot of money. And when I went to the new school, actually, um, for a little while, um, I decided that okay, I'm gonna start taking these seminars, and I learned a lot about the visa process, a lot of details that I had no clue of just from a Google search. So if you're in an institution that offers um services like that, take them.

[40:45] Casey Killoran: Make the time.

[40:46] Leah Walsh: Yeah. Alright, two more questions. The first one is like on those days where you're feeling really down or uninspired or in the dark side. Is there anything concrete that you find yourself reaching for again and again? Like a like a bad thing or a good thing?

[41:03] David Tyson Lam: I think it's my positive, a positive piece.

[41:07] Casey Killoran: All right, just like we all know about the night. Um like a certain book that you reread or a film that you watch or a place that you go or something like that.

[41:19] David Tyson Lam: I mean, music for me is a huge thing. Uh any type of music could put on music, but uh also working out as much as I will drag myself to do it, once I'm there and I start moving and I get the blood flowing, my head space completely changes. Um, and also meditation is something that I have fought. Um, I'm very willful, stubborn person sometimes, and I fought meditation for a very long time. And I've recently been getting into it, and it's actually um starting to become actually enjoyable and something that I look forward to.

[41:59] Casey Killoran: Mine is tied to a kind of growing self-awareness that I have right now that I get to my dark side when I'm fatigued, like and I'm when I'm really tired. And I remember someone once saying that you um your fear uh the parts of your brain that are activated by fear become more activated when you're tired. So I remember thinking, oh god, I'm too tired to think about this now, so I won't deal with it. But lately I've been like, oh my god, I feel so stressed. What's happening? Why am I so negative? And I realize it always happens at around eight or nine at night. And so what I've and I've talked to Casey about this, what I've tried to start doing was just not working anymore, and just like literally releasing the day, eating a cookie.

I'm a cookie addict. Eating a cookie or looking at picture books, like I mean not kid picture books, but like photography. Yes, like photography. Because it's I like being engaged at night, but not quote unquote like intellectually. So if I'm able to look at images that are striking or beautiful, that becomes very visceral for me, and I stop that like my pleasure zones get ignited and my fear parts go down. And so right now I'm looking at a bunch of coffee books from Vogue. And that's helping me to get out of it.

[43:25] David Tyson Lam: So then the last question is just if you've seen anything lately that you want to recommend of any art form.

[43:33] Casey Killoran: I'm going to see something that I'm looking forward to. But I haven't seen it yet. I'm going to see Oh, Hello on Broadway.

[43:42] David Tyson Lam: Oh, Jonathan Minson.

[43:43] Casey Killoran: Yeah. I'm actually really looking forward to it. I really like Nick Kroll's show.

[43:48] David Tyson Lam: It was like a sketch show.

[43:50] Casey Killoran: Um I'm trying to think. I re-watch stuff a lot. I watch a lot of TV and I re-watch. So God, what did I just re-watch? I just re-watched Arrested Development for a little bit.

[44:04] David Tyson Lam: It's so good.

[44:05] Casey Killoran: It's so good. It's so funny. God, it's so good.

[44:11] David Tyson Lam: Yeah. You like more drama stuff, so you have would have some of that.

[44:15] Casey Killoran: Yeah. I was gonna say, well, we recently watched In the Mood for Love.

[44:19] David Tyson Lam: Oh, yeah, that's brilliant.

[44:20] Casey Killoran: It's a really, really great uh film uh from uh Wong Kar Wai, like this sort of Chinese classic, and that film, watch that and be just be dissatisfied because you're like, God, nothing happens, and then go online to YouTube for the deleted scenes and be mesmerized because you're like, wow, like there's this whole other under like the storyline that went on that got cut, and you realize, oh my god, it's such a fuller experience. And so a combination of those two is what I would recommend.

[45:01] David Tyson Lam: And I'm gonna jump on Farewell My Concubine is like an epic quest. It is so beautiful, and I cried like a dozen times when I watched that.

[45:15] Casey Killoran: It's a classic.

[45:17] David Tyson Lam: I'm just jumping off of that.

[45:18] Casey Killoran: Yeah, it's a classic of it's Sarah's Gong Li.

[45:22] David Tyson Lam: It's another Chinese uh masterpiece. And the funny thing is is that I asked Casey to watch it, and then I've never I've never seen it, and I'm like, I heard this is great, so I like left. I went to sleep. I was like, Casey, I need to sleep. And I stayed up to like three o'clock in the morning crying by myself.

[45:40] Casey Killoran: So I have to see that now.

[45:43] David Tyson Lam: I gotta see that now now that you've recommended it.

[45:45] Casey Killoran: Yeah, it's actually really good. I saw a show this week, so I just want to throw in a recommendation for that too. I saw Pon at MTC.

[45:52] David Tyson Lam: Oh, yeah.

[45:54] Casey Killoran: I knew nothing about it going in, and it was really excellent and pushing all sorts of stylistic boundaries and cool. So if you have a chance to see that.

[46:02] Leah Walsh: Well, thank you guys so much. This was really fun to have my first dual interview.

[46:06] David Tyson Lam: I know, it was fun.

[46:07] Casey Killoran: Thank you so much for having us.

[46:19] Leah Walsh: Thank you for listening to the Compass Podcast. I'm Leah Walsh. More episodes are coming soon. Please look for us on Facebook in iTunes. I'd like to thank the following people for their generosity. The Compass Cover Art is by Kim Miller, music by Brendan Speth, audio assistance from Nick Choxie, and a special thanks to Frankie J. Alvarez. See you next time.