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[0:00] Mark-Eugene Garcia: Hello, and welcome to the Drama Book Show, your backstage pass to the biggest conversations in theater, books, and the artists who make it happen. I am Mark-Eugene Garcia, and tonight we're talking about something every creative eventually realizes. Talent is only part of the job. Emmy and Artios Award-nominated casting director Wendy S. Kurtzman joins us to discuss her book, Acting is Your Business: How to Take Charge of Your Creative Career. Drawing on more than 35 years in casting for film, television, and theater, Wendy offers a practical framework for navigating the entertainment industry by thinking like a CEO of your own career. Hosted by David Rigano, this conversation explores everything from networking and financial planning to auditions, mindset, and building lasting professional relationships.

Whether you're an actor just starting out or an established artist looking to take your career to the next level, Wendy's insights offer a blueprint for creating a sustainable life in the arts. Here's our conversation with Wendy S. Kurtzman. Please help me in welcoming Wendy S. Kurtzman. It's so nerve-wracking. This is terrible. Absolutely terrible. I'm like, just do it. You can do it. Oh my God, it's terrifying to walk out here and do this. Hi. I'm so excited. I'm so excited. I see some faces that I haven't seen in a while. I've seen some faces recently and some faces that I haven't seen in a long time, and it's so exciting to have you here. Thank you for coming. Thank you for coming.

[1:48] Wendy S. Kurtzman: I'm so excited. David and I have been upstairs chatting away, so he has questions that he wants to ask, so ask me. I'm sure you have questions as well, which we will get to. To start off, what made you want to write this book?

[2:00] Wendy S. Kurtzman: I think what made me want to write the book is that throughout my career, I've always felt there was this weird power balance between casting directors, or the people that represent and represent the piece of the business, and the creatives in the business. There was this weird power shift between what they had versus what you wanted. That power shift was really, over a period of time, can be really disheartening and really disabling. It's also a myth. I thought, I have to find a way to demystify this power balance and give creatives in general, specifically actresses, because that's who I've worked with for so long, but specifically creatives, to give them more license to take charge of a career in a way that they feel like they have power and purpose and the right to be where they are, I think, more than anything else. That's why I wrote the book, is to proceed with purpose. I think that's what it was supposed to stand for.

[3:05] Mark-Eugene Garcia: When you first decided to write the book, were you already teaching at that point? What was the way into finding what this book was going to be about?

[3:12] Wendy S. Kurtzman: I should probably not admit this, but my students were my guinea pigs. They came into academia from the industry. We're looked at suspiciously by academia because we don't represent BFAs and MFAs and degrees. We represent industry experience. That can be daunting and it can be threatening to academia. When I came in, I came in there and I thought, it's really my time to learn. I have to learn now. I sat back and really started asking questions, started figuring out, what do these students need? What are they missing? Where's the power shift? What are they nervous about? Where do the anxieties come from? I'm just trying to get more of that conversation going. Over a period of time, I started creating these little focus groups, for lack of a better word.

I said, can you meet, can a group of you get together and can I just ask you some questions? I have a concept for this thing. What does this feel like to you? Does that feel relatable? I want to create vice presidents of certain, I want to call them VPs or heads of the department. How does that feel to you? If I said certain things that were included under a certain department that were an actor's job or creative's job, what does that feel like? I was able to cope that information out alongside of also teaching at the same time. I think those two things, I was doing it and I was listening and pulling the information together. I think that's how it came about.

[4:52] Mark-Eugene Garcia: That's one of the things that I love in here. Just looking at the table of contents, you start with meet the boardroom, seat one, the CEO, seat two, the CFO. You go through all of these specific jobs, like it's a corporation. You look at this and you go, oh yeah, I'm all of those people. My two questions are, were you already talking to actors about thinking of themselves like these business positions? When you sat down to write the book, how were you thinking structurally about how to lay this out?

[5:30] Wendy S. Kurtzman: That's such a good question. These are hard questions. I think that the most important thing was to create focus, to create a destination for this to live. I went to the tropes that we all know. Succession, billions, empire, all of those shows that we're familiar with as creatives, they have those big formidable boardroom tables. All those important people sit around that table and they all make those decisions and they run the company. I felt like creating a boardroom table would center those objectives. Each of those objectives are facets of us, ourselves. We probably do all of those things, maybe not on a regular basis or maybe not with intention, but we do all those things anyway. You're going to say, maybe not well.

I do all the things, I don't know how well and good I am at them. That's the point. The point is that I give it that intentionality, to center it to something that's actually a metaphor that I can look at a physical model. The other piece of it too, and I speak for myself, but I also work with a lot of creatives. We are intentionally challenged in a lot of ways. We're like squirrel and we are off running to that next opportunity and this and that. I felt it was really important to create a system where there was a way to organize this. There was a time management element to it also, because that legitimizes business. That settles you down in a way that if you're just running for opportunity or you're just trying to find what that next thing is, you're not thinking intentionally.

You're not thinking, is this the best move for the business right now? Is this what I should be doing right now in order to keep things running smoothly? I think that was important to me too. Did that answer your question?

[7:20] Mark-Eugene Garcia: You mentioned that for a lot of artists, not just actors, we have, as my note card says here, non-linear careers. There is always that what's next, because it's not prescribed for us. How do we focus? What are some of the challenges, other than our attention span, challenges that you've noticed with artists with non-linear careers?

[7:48] Wendy S. Kurtzman: I think the biggest part of it is how we make money. That's a huge part of it, because we have to sustain, and we have to support a career, and we don't punch a clock, and we don't have the consistency, and we don't have 401ks, and we don't have that linear journey. We don't get paid for showing up to auditions.

[8:05] Mark-Eugene Garcia: No, we don't. No, we don't. We spend an enormous amount of time doing it. By the way, it's not just actors that do that. Casting directors do that too. Set decorators do that. Lighting designers do that. They have to come to these meetings with their creative IP and sit in meetings and spend time. We make lists, lots of lists and lots of ideas, and we go in and meet on projects, and we may or may not get them. We're not paid for that time. We hand over those lists, and those lists may wind up being lists that are actually going to be used on the project that we didn't get. Same thing with an actor. They could send in an audition and do something really unique and maybe set the benchmark for something that they're looking for.

They may not even know they're looking for it, but they see it in that audition and think, that was good. They don't actually cast that person, but then they keep looking for that quality in all the rest of the auditions that come in. We're constantly giving away our creative IP in that way, and we have to support a career that doesn't have any kind of structure in terms of it financially. Those two things are almost incompatible sometimes. That's another reason why when I created the boardroom, I intentionally put the financial part of it and what I call the HR department up at the head of the table, because if your financial house isn't in order, not much gets done. If your mental and physical welfare is out of order, not much gets done.

Those two things are the pivot points that then can delegate and have conversation about what else you want to accomplish. But if those two houses aren't in order, you probably aren't functioning at your best.

[9:49] Mark-Eugene Garcia: Yeah. What in your experience as a casting director got you thinking in these terms and got you shifting maybe the, I don't know if it was the way that you were thinking about actors and other creatives, or if it was in your conversations, what started putting these terms in your head?

[10:08] Wendy S. Kurtzman: You mean my idea for the boardroom or taking license?

[10:15] Mark-Eugene Garcia: Your idea for the boardroom as the act, were there specific conversations and specifically the whole book thinking of it as a business rather than an art, which we focus so much on the show and not the business so much of the time?

[10:34] Wendy S. Kurtzman: Every single independent casting director is an entrepreneur. We go from job to job. So you have to think that way. You have to be a good administrator. Whereas equally, the people that are coming up with these great ideas are going to a show and bringing in somebody that nobody knows. And we're also the people that are executing the contracts and negotiating the contracts and negotiating the deals. So I think I learned that. I came from it from a creative standpoint. I was an actress a long time ago. And so that was the piece of it that I loved. I loved how casting was the confluence of being able to work with actors, but also putting on the business hat. So I think it trained me to think that way.

You have to think that way. Decisions that people make, suggestions that you made that people don't like or appreciate are not personal. It's business. You learn how to take information. You learn how to be a really careful listener. You need all those skills as an actor too. Being able to let things roll off your back and know that if this job wasn't the job you got, you made a connection and it wasn't for you and you move on, right? That if somebody says something to you in a room and it doesn't sit well with you, it's a piece of information and you have to process that information somehow and move on. So I think we have that as casting directors all the time. I've shared with my students, there are times when a casting director will sit in a room and think, this isn't my job.

I don't like these people. I don't want to work with them. I could do it. I could do it. And I know I would do a really good job because I know I'm good at my job, but I don't like them. And that's a big piece of it. And I think actors are quick to subjugate that, to say, it's okay. It's okay. Or somebody says something in it. We talked about this. We had this such an interesting conversation because David was saying that they went in on a creative meeting and it was for their music. And during the meeting, something happened and they had, they made a comment that feeling free and being able to make a comment. And the person took umbrage with that comment and they bristled and did this. And I thought, that's a warning sign.

That's a piece of the puzzle that we see it all the time in our daily interactions. And as actors, we go, Oh, whatever. Oh, okay. It's okay. But you know what? It's not okay. And yeah, in the moment we really tried to smooth it over and then we didn't get that show. I don't get to write that musical. And then I had to say, we weren't, that's what the whole process was. Clearly, we did not want to work in the same way.

[13:16] Wendy S. Kurtzman: Yeah, and that's a clue. That's a piece of information. And it's when you really stop and you are thinking of yourself and you're giving yourself license as a creative who is also a business person that is also deciding, do I want to be in business with you? That relationship is reciprocal. It's not just a one-way street. I have to like you. I have to respect you. I have to think you're going to respect me. If I make a crazy comment and that's who I am, I want you to lean in and go, that's fucking hilarious. I want you to like that about me, not sit and do this. Because if that's happening, there's not going to be... God, take that into your dating life too. Yeah, so true. I say that all the time.

I always say it's like that first date. You're sitting there and you're thinking, do I like you? Are there things that you're saying that make me want to lean in? Or are there things that are happening that are making me go, oh, okay. And they're just little micro things that happen. We're so good at letting those things, we excuse them. We excuse them. But when you're thinking as a business, I don't think Steve Jobs, I don't think the huge entrepreneurs that are out there in the world, I don't think they sit in meetings with people and think, oh, it's okay that you said that or that you pissed me off or that you did not respect me or that you did this or did that. And I'm still going to work with you. They wouldn't do that. And so why do we have any less license to work our own businesses?

[14:45] Wendy S. Kurtzman: And I believe that you have... They do that sometimes. We have a ghost. I believe that you have a bit of a chapter to read that discusses... Oh, you know what? I thought this was just a really... Implementing some of these. Yeah, this is just a little piece. You said that how to use this book resonated with you. It did. Which was funny because when I wrote the book, I was finished and I thought they'll know how to use it because they'll read it. And the publisher said, no, you need to write something that says how to use this book, which I thought was pretty funny. But for you, it was really... I opened it up to do my homework for today. And I was reading, I was like, oh, I need this too. Yeah.

So I like this part. It's really at the end of the book on page 143. It's called Putting It All Together. I said, remember a colleague of mine once said the biggest challenge artists face is when they sit at the kitchen table and say to themselves, it's Tuesday at 11 a.m. What now? This perfectly encapsulates the overwhelm that results from lack of structure. When you have dozens of things to do and they're all a little different from each other and nothing has been assigned to you since everything is self-started, it can feel impossible to do anything at all. And I really relate to that. I relate to the fact that we have to create all this structure ourselves. When you create a boardroom for your creative career and you designate tasks to different seats of the table, you give yourself the gift of structure.

Then you sit down on a Tuesday at 11 a.m. and you say, my head of business development has about 30 minutes of updated to do in my contact list. My head of creative development wanted to start working out the budget for that comedy sketch I'm making for my acting reel. My outreach department needs me to drop off those resources for Habitat for Humanity. And since I was up late last night finishing the outline for that Instagram reel sketch, I know that my head of HR will demand that I budget in some self-care. And it gives me that license to say, wow, let me do a check. Let me go around the table and let me do a check to see what I need right now. And maybe I can't do all the things that my business is asking me today.

Maybe I need to decide who gets the love today. Maybe today is just an HR day, right? Maybe today I need to unplug. I need to get out of the city. I need to go take a hike and I need to take my phone and leave it in the car or leave it somewhere where I'm not constantly distracted by it. Maybe that's all I need. And that might be enough to then give us enough juice to get up the next morning and start running our world again.

[17:22] David Rigano: But yeah, I can imagine it makes making that decision easier when you've gone down the list of what needs to be done.

[17:29] Wendy S. Kurtzman: Yeah. And I think this last part here where I say there will be times when priorities shift or an emergency arises requiring you to pivot and reorganize your calendar, that's all a part of it. As long as you're not ignoring any of the seats at the table, then you're doing it right. It's when you start ignoring one of them and it's usually self. And then we get very depleted, but those are the pieces of it. All this journey, it seems so elusive, but business development is exactly that, right? It's trying to figure out, this is a funny thing that happened. I'm going to use you, Aiden, as an example. So Aiden has this audition coming up and I said, send me who you're auditioning for. And so he sent me the list of the people and I looked at it and one of them was a woman that he'd worked with out in Los Angeles through a program that we do.

And I said, you know her, you were in the room with that person. So if you think back, okay, that person came in, I met them. Did I write them a thank you? Did I reach out to them and say something specific in the thank you? Not just thank you so much and here's my picture and resume, right? But thank you so much when you came in and did this and this, it opened my eyes to something that I hadn't seen before, or it taught me something that I hadn't thought of before, or your generosity in sharing this information with me has made me think a lot about where I want to go next in my life. So thank you. Thank you for that, right? And that then creates this piece of somebody else out there in the world going, saying, wow, I'm making an impression.

I'm doing good too, because we want to feel that way too. We want to be seen just as much as an actor wants to be seen, right? All creatives do. No matter what your job is, you want to be seen. And knowing that you have that in your pocket, that has this amazing ease now, this business piece of you that can say, I worked with that person. I did business with that person. And I have license to walk in now and say, it's so nice to see you again, right? I'm so excited to have this opportunity with you again. Having it in Los Angeles, I didn't know it would come again so soon. It's connecting the dots. And I think we forget that we have to connect the dots. That's huge.

[19:52] David Rigano: And you're reminding me of another job I didn't get. Of a directing job that I submitted for, and I had a passing acquaintance to the person I was submitting to, and we're Facebook friends. And I never reached out on Facebook and said, hi, so excited to see that you're doing this, just submitted, really looking forward to the opportunity, and nothing. And I really thought, oh, I'm so perfect for this job. My resume will speak for itself. I can't even say I didn't get the job. I didn't get the interview.

[20:25] Wendy S. Kurtzman: Yeah, because we are not our resumes. We just are not. And that's actually the least interesting thing about you as a creative, is your resume. Yes, will the algorithm filter it out and bring you in? If I'm looking for somebody who's got amazing circus skills and you've spent five years with Cirque du Soleil, yes, you're going to get in the door. But then after that, it goes right back to the dating. Who are you? And I always say this, you have to be a citizen of the world. You have to come in and talk about something other than. I don't know how other creatives, I don't know how other actors sit around with each other and talk all day long about auditions. I don't know how they do it. I'm assuming it's interesting, but it's not interesting to us because it doesn't really tell us anything about who you are, and it really doesn't tell us about where your heart lies.

It's your job, and I know that's part of your heart, but then the world's a big place, and there's a lot of ways to walk through this world. I'm always interested in people that are exploring and pivoting and creating and writing and get an opportunity to go be a PA on a set for eight weeks and say, what the hell? I'm going. I'm going to go on the set. I'm going to act. Somebody stand up at SAG-AFTRA and say that to me. I'm an actor, but I was offered this opportunity to go be a PA, and I thought, how does that not serve you? You're going to meet other actors. You're going to meet a director. You're going to meet DPs. You're going to meet people in the makeup department. You're going to be on a set.

All the people that you want to have in your creative world and orbiting around you are going to be right there. What you do with that community is now yours. Now that goes into business development, and who knows? It could possibly go into creative development. Crazier things have happened at the craft service table, and it's easy. Those situations are easy because you're grabbing for the last donut, and I wanted it. Then we have a conversation, and we get to know each other. We have a laugh, and I remember you as the person that was going to grab the last donut, and that's how we start. It's that simple. It's not about audition for Chekhov, but I didn't get that. Then I went for six weeks in a program where I went abroad, and we did miming skills. I appreciate that, but I can read that. I don't need you to read that to me. I want you to tell me something else. What don't I know? That's hard.

[22:51] Wendy S. Kurtzman: I think that's a skill also. I think creatives, actors especially, we feel like this is us. This is our work. This is our degree. These are the jobs we did. These are the roles we can, and it's scary to just talk about ourselves sometimes. I remember Sam Rockwell said in an interview one time, he said, please just give me something to read. Don't make me talk. Don't ask me, so what's new, or how are you doing? He goes, don't bring me in for a general. Don't make me talk, because it's hard. Again, if I'm out there and I'm campaigning for a business that I'm running, I'm going to talk to everyone shamelessly. I'm going to promote my business and all the great other things about me that I do, how entrepreneurial, other things that I'm interested in, places that I've been, things that are important to me, causes that I believe in, whatever those things are, that banner me and make me think by somebody else thinking, wow, that's a cool human being.

I like them. I know what they stand for. That's, I think, the other piece of it that I think circles into the marketing and branding piece of it is, and I don't think we realize we do this, but we lean into people and really invest in them when we know what they stand for, because we can trust them. That isn't always readily available or apparent. When it's not readily apparent, we tend to be hesitant. We tend to wait and take a beat, but we usually know very quickly if we trust somebody, if we're compelled by somebody, if there's something, that secret sauce, je ne sais quoi, whatever that is that makes us lean in. Once we do that, that's branding. Whether you realize it or not, you wear it every day, and it is who you are, and people either get it and want more of it, or they are not sure, and then they back off and don't invest.

I think it's about learning how to brand that having you at hello. Again, I think it goes back to feeling like you have license in that way. It's not the line that's waiting in to go kiss the ring or kiss the crown. We're all in beanies, and we're all working. We're all working in this business, and so we want to somebody that we can put our arm around you, if we ask first, and say, let's work together, right?

[25:24] David Rigano: Yes, but truly, that is what it's about. It's about, I want to be in the trenches with you. From the other side of the table, I wholeheartedly agree with that. Yeah, that's what we're looking for.

[25:35] David Rigano: Any of y'all have any questions about this book, about the process of writing and publishing this book, about where you all are in the process of creating your small business? Yes.

[25:50] Audience Member: Okay, so I'm just, obviously, there's been a lot of things going on in the acting industry, entertainment industry, and all. I'm really curious about what about those external events that were taking place affected how you wrote this book, and do you feel like the concepts that you write about in this book are things that can stand the test of time, in terms of how we approach our career, and how we feel in terms of how we create opportunities for ourselves?

[26:21] Wendy S. Kurtzman: I'm going to a place in this book that I don't know if it's what you're talking about, so I'm, can you be a little bit more specific?

[26:30] Audience Member: Yeah, yeah. I don't know if I'm going to, I don't know if I'm going to start talking.

[26:33] Wendy S. Kurtzman: Yeah, I just think there's just so much that had to shift within this industry and it's like we're navigating new roles and new codes and new ways of getting work. You're in commercials, like how does that look in streaming, things like that? Yeah, and I was just curious about writing because I'm not really sure how long it took you to write this, but a lot.

[27:02] Wendy S. Kurtzman: And thank god there was a pandemic or I wouldn't have put my butt in the seat long enough to make it happen. It's like there was nothing else, there was no other excuse for this creative to make an excuse to say it's like what are you doing because nobody is doing anything, so get your butt in that seat and write that book. And I love that because I'm curious with something like that, did the pandemic influence the type of things you wrote about? So I think that, look, I think you're hitting this on two different levels. There is a shift in the industry itself, right, in the machinery itself and it's changing constantly, it's constantly expanding and then retracting. And you're going to see it over and over again.

The strike happened and we won a lot of things, but you have to bet that if they won something, something else is going to give in another area. So it, because our business wants to make money and money is the driver of everything in the industry, right? Creativity be damned, right? It's about what is the bottom line, what's going to make the dollar? You've got an industry that's constantly changing and part of what I did in this book was saying to you, you have to understand the landscape of this industry that you're going into. If you're not listening and reading and watching and getting involved in what is out there, what is happening, how many shows have, what if the pilot season alone that went from, at the time, there used to be what, 20 pilots?

And a fellow casting director, a friend of mine, is back there and now she's a manager. How many pilots do they used to be at ABC or at any of them? Yeah, NBC or ABC or any of them? Yeah, and that was just the comedy department.

[28:54] Wendy S. Kurtzman: So now you look at 18, there are probably 18 in drama, so that's 36 right there, plus the long form television and now there's four to five that less. Okay, I think ABC did live or something. So because, right, because this business is trying to figure out right now where the risk-reward is and where the money is and to follow that money. So you're seeing like, and we've seen it, we've seen huge investment in tentpole movies, in remakes and all, right? So I tried to, in the book, talk a lot about that business landscape and I think that's what the business development department's there for. And so I do think this book will go the distance because it encourages you to stay aware of this landscape.

Yeah, because I also think it tempers your expectations. It tempers, it lets you understand, oh, if I'm going to a foreign country and all I eat is hamburgers and I get to the foreign country and there are no hamburgers, am I not going to eat for the entire time I'm in that country? Or am I going to learn to adapt? So what do I have to do to adapt to this new normal, right? So that's piece of it. Then the other piece of the business really deals with the integrity of us as human beings and that goes, that runs a huge spectrum, right? It goes from pre-stereotypes and tropes that were really ingrained in our industry for a really long time and were there not some major upsets in our industry where people were like finally called out?

All these movements that happen and call people out and start, and the bad behavior started becoming highlighted, we might still be exposed to that. The truth is it will never be totally gone, it's going to live in the business. There are still people in the business that are in it that have been in it for 30 years and they're going to be in it maybe for another 20 more, who knows? So we're not going to be able to wash this new ideology over everybody, but we can be aware of it. And what I have learned more than anything in this world of this new landscape is that I never stop learning and never stop listening. So if something comes at me and it doesn't feel good, what I look at it as is like this is my opportunity to tell somebody, let me help you reframe this.

Let me help you think about this a different way. Let me help you learn how this new world is looking. And that's my suggestion to you. You can take it or you don't need to take it, but let me suggest that. I found that old saying, and it's a terrible saying, but you get more bees with honey. So I believe that. I think what nowadays, there's a lot of people, and I've been in those rooms, I've been in those highly testosterone rooms where I walked in and I was that and talked to a certain way, asked to do certain things, and really had to sit there and figure out how am I navigating this because I got to hold on to my own creative license. I see myself as a professional, I have good ideas, I have something to offer, and this is the world I want to work in.

So we're not going to be able to take everybody, we're not going to always be able to have every single person that we absolutely adore. There are going to be personalities and people. So this book does ask you to create what I call that personal bill of rights, right? And to be really clear on what that is and to be really respectful. And I think as long as you create that bill of rights and you partner with people, not blame, not point, not call out, but call in those people, call them in and sit them down and talk to them respectfully. I think people want to learn and I think there is a new way that this business is trying to be. I can't promise you it's always going to be that way, but I think it's trying and that's a good thing.

So I guess the book hopefully will stand the test of time in those ways and there's online resources and what I will do on the regular is I will update so they won't become irrelevant. That's part of my kind of commitment to the book and that's what's so cool about it, living with online resources is that you can just go in there and pull one page out and put in something else. So that was a, I did that kind of sort of like more ways than one.

[33:37] Dylan Glick: Yeah, cool, thank you.

[33:39] Wendy S. Kurtzman: You're welcome. Yeah, I'm reading the chapters. I found that every chapter offered such knowledge but also challenges for me. The CFO chapter was my least favorite, but it was very insightful. It's the, I don't like math, I don't like numbers. Do you have a favorite chapter in this book? And I also ask, do you feel like there's a certain chapter that if you don't take anything else from my book, please read this chapter?

[34:10] Wendy S. Kurtzman: I, like I said, I think the finance and the mental and physical wellness is paramount to everything, but I think my favorite chapters are the things that I lean into and do the best. So I love the business development department because I love biz dev. I love that. I love connecting people, I love reaching out to people. I'm shameless in reaching out to people and I've learned a way to do it where people say yes to me and they probably don't even realize that they said yes, and then I'm like good, I got them. But I've learned that and I really love that. I love that piece. So I think I love the biz dev part and I love the creative development part because had I not learned to love that, I wouldn't have written a book because I was a casting director.

So if I just stayed in my lane as a casting director, I wouldn't be an author. And being an author now has opened up a whole other world for me. I'm really interested in writing now a lot. I never thought that would be something I would be interested in. So I think those are my two favorites. And I also really love the outreach department because I had a year of a couple years of serious transition when I was leaving casting more and trying to work more into academia and I was really trying to find myself. And I decided, you know what, I'm going to go take something, I'm going to go do something. And I went to go work for a place called Vista Del Mar, which was a residential treatment center.

And if you think I had any knowledge or skills of how to be in a place like that, I didn't. But it took me totally in another direction and exposed me to different people, different personalities, problematic situations, artistic ability in shape, sizes, bodies that were not the people that I had met in my casting office sitting behind the desk going through pictures and resumes. So I learned so much in that moment taking myself out of that. I think adversity sometimes is our best friend in that way because it pivots us into something that we have to go out of our comfort zone because we don't have a choice and I learned a lot. So I guess those would be probably my three favorites and my least favorite is yes, finances.

I, yeah, I know how to tell everybody what to do. I know what the right thing to do is, but listen, I'll tell you this is an interesting thing. Every summer I've done a summer program at UCLA for high school students every single summer and usually by April or end of early April, I get a call and I find out what their schedule is going to be and how many students are going to be. And this April, I didn't get a call and I thought that's really weird. And now this is a piece of income that I have, I've counted on. It's almost as if your series was going to go back, right? And I reached out and it turns out that the program had gone through a big change, that there were a lot of things that didn't make it into the program in the fall.

Therefore, there were a lot of things that didn't populate and didn't make it into the catalog and my program was one of them. And I went from making a chunk of income over the summer that I've always made to zero. That's an actor's life, that's a creative life. And were I not in a place where my financial house was in order, I can weather this. If it wasn't, it would be disastrous. Whether it's five thousand dollars or if it's fifty thousand, it doesn't matter. That could be the toppling block and I don't want anybody to ever be in that position. So that's why that piece of the financial piece of it is so important and I saw it firsthand this summer.

[38:11] Dylan Glick: Yeah, I would like to talk a little bit about, and this will hopefully be things that can like directly help a bunch of people in this room and also hopefully for listeners on the podcast. I have a couple questions that I want to talk about. What are common ways that you see actors getting in their own way? You talk about this a little bit in the first part and what's what are some of the easiest pieces of advice that you can give to actors to get out of their own way?

[38:46] Wendy S. Kurtzman: All right, I'm just going to take a show of hands here. How many times have you been in a conversation with somebody and you're already thinking about what you want to say back? Truthfully, every single one of us, that's one of the ways actors get in their own way. They already know what they want to say, they already know what they want to do, they already have it all planned out and it's all going to be perfect. And I've done it a million times and it's going to be, it's got to happen this way and that is a surefire way to get in your own way. Just the same as we have to resist that impulse in a conversation not to interrupt or to wait to listen until somebody's all the way finished with that sentence before we think about, wait, what did they just say?

And so what I hear you saying is before I answer, it's the same thing with acting. And I think that most actors, when I would watch them come in for auditions, you would see them leave, the ones that left were like they felt so bad, I blew it, I did so badly.

[39:49] Wendy S. Kurtzman: You know, I think one of the biggest things that I see is that actors often feel like they have to wait for someone to give them permission to take charge of their career. And I think that’s a huge misconception. You are the CEO of your own creative business, and you have to act like it. You have to make decisions, you have to be proactive, and you have to take risks.

[40:19] Wendy S. Kurtzman: So many actors think that they need to wait for the phone to ring or for someone to tell them they’re good enough. And that’s just not the case. You have to create your own opportunities. You have to network, you have to reach out to people, and you have to be willing to put yourself out there.

[40:49] Wendy S. Kurtzman: I always tell actors to think about their career as a business. What are your goals? What do you want to achieve? And then create a plan to get there. It’s not just about auditioning; it’s about building relationships, finding mentors, and being strategic about the roles you take.

[41:19] Wendy S. Kurtzman: Another thing that I think is really important is understanding the business side of the industry. Many actors don’t realize that there are so many resources available to them, whether it’s workshops, classes, or networking events. You have to take advantage of those opportunities to learn and grow.

[41:49] Wendy S. Kurtzman: And don’t be afraid to ask for help. There are so many people in this industry who want to support you and see you succeed. Whether it’s a fellow actor, a casting director, or a mentor, reach out and build those connections.

[42:19] Wendy S. Kurtzman: I also think it’s crucial to have a strong online presence. In today’s digital age, casting directors and producers often look at social media profiles before making decisions. Make sure your online presence reflects who you are as an artist and showcases your work.

[42:29] Wendy S. Kurtzman: And remember, it’s not just about having a presence; it’s about engaging with your audience. Share your journey, your successes, and even your failures. People want to connect with you on a personal level.

[42:39] Wendy S. Kurtzman: Lastly, I want to emphasize the importance of resilience. The entertainment industry is tough, and rejection is a part of the process. You have to be able to bounce back, learn from your experiences, and keep moving forward.

[42:49] Wendy S. Kurtzman: It’s about persistence and believing in yourself, even when things get tough. Surround yourself with supportive people who lift you up and remind you of your worth.

[42:59] Wendy S. Kurtzman: So, to sum it up, take charge of your career, be proactive, build relationships, understand the business, have a strong online presence, and be resilient. Those are the keys to success in this industry.

[43:09] Wendy S. Kurtzman: And remember, it’s a marathon, not a sprint. Your career will have ups and downs, but if you stay focused and committed, you can achieve your goals.

[43:19] Wendy S. Kurtzman: I hope that these insights help you on your journey as an actor. It’s a challenging path, but it can also be incredibly rewarding.

[43:29] Wendy S. Kurtzman: Thank you for having me on the show today. I’m excited to see where your careers take you!

[43:39] Wendy S. Kurtzman: And remember, always keep learning and growing. The more you invest in yourself, the more you’ll be able to offer to the industry.

[43:49] Wendy S. Kurtzman: Good luck, everyone!

[43:59] Wendy S. Kurtzman: I’m looking forward to seeing all of your successes in the future!

[44:09] Wendy S. Kurtzman: Thank you!

[44:19] Wendy S. Kurtzman: And if you have any questions or want to connect, feel free to reach out to me on social media.

[44:29] Wendy S. Kurtzman: I love hearing from fellow artists and sharing insights.

[44:39] Wendy S. Kurtzman: Let’s keep the conversation going!

[44:49] Wendy S. Kurtzman: Take care, everyone!

[44:59] Wendy S. Kurtzman: Bye!

[45:09] Wendy S. Kurtzman: And remember, you are the CEO of your own creative business!

[45:19] Wendy S. Kurtzman: Don’t forget that!

[45:29] Wendy S. Kurtzman: Thank you again for having me!

[45:39] Wendy S. Kurtzman: I appreciate it!

[45:49] Wendy S. Kurtzman: Have a great day!

[45:59] Wendy S. Kurtzman: Bye!

[46:09] Wendy S. Kurtzman: And keep shining!

[46:19] Wendy S. Kurtzman: You’ve got this!

[46:29] Wendy S. Kurtzman: Thank you!

[46:39] Wendy S. Kurtzman: Bye!

[46:49] Wendy S. Kurtzman: And take care!

[46:59] Wendy S. Kurtzman: Bye!

[47:09] Wendy S. Kurtzman: Thank you!

[47:19] Wendy S. Kurtzman: Bye!

[47:29] Wendy S. Kurtzman: And keep pursuing your dreams!

[47:39] Wendy S. Kurtzman: You can do it!

[47:49] Wendy S. Kurtzman: Bye!

[47:59] Wendy S. Kurtzman: Thank you!

[48:09] Wendy S. Kurtzman: Bye!

[48:19] Wendy S. Kurtzman: And remember, you are capable of amazing things!

[48:29] Wendy S. Kurtzman: Thank you!

[48:39] Wendy S. Kurtzman: Bye!

[48:49] Wendy S. Kurtzman: And keep pushing forward!

[48:59] Wendy S. Kurtzman: You’ve got this!

[49:09] Wendy S. Kurtzman: Thank you!

[49:19] Wendy S. Kurtzman: Bye!

[49:29] Wendy S. Kurtzman: And keep believing in yourself!

[49:39] Wendy S. Kurtzman: Thank you!

[49:49] Wendy S. Kurtzman: Bye!

[49:59] Wendy S. Kurtzman: And take care!

[50:09] Wendy S. Kurtzman: Thank you!

[50:19] Wendy S. Kurtzman: Bye!

[50:29] Wendy S. Kurtzman: And keep striving for greatness!

[50:39] Wendy S. Kurtzman: You can do it!

[50:49] Wendy S. Kurtzman: Thank you!

[50:59] Wendy S. Kurtzman: Bye!

[51:09] Wendy S. Kurtzman: And remember, your journey is unique!

[51:19] Wendy S. Kurtzman: Thank you!

[51:29] Wendy S. Kurtzman: Bye!

[51:39] Wendy S. Kurtzman: And keep shining bright!

[51:49] Wendy S. Kurtzman: You’ve got this!

[51:59] Wendy S. Kurtzman: Thank you!

[52:09] Wendy S. Kurtzman: Bye!

[52:19] Wendy S. Kurtzman: And keep pursuing your passions!

[52:29] Wendy S. Kurtzman: Thank you!

[52:39] Wendy S. Kurtzman: Bye!

[52:49] Wendy S. Kurtzman: And take care!

[52:59] Wendy S. Kurtzman: Thank you!