This transcript was automatically generated and might contain errors.

[0:00] Mark-Eugene Garcia: Welcome to the Drama Book Show, where we bring you conversations with the writers, artists and theater professionals whose work helps shape the world of live performance. I'm Mark-Eugene Garcia. In this episode, we delve into the business of being an actor. While talent and training are essential, building a lasting career takes strategy, adaptability and the understanding of an industry that's constantly evolving.

[0:27] Mark-Eugene Garcia: We're joined by legendary casting director James Calleri to discuss the 9th edition of Acting Professionally. From auditioning to self-tapes to representation, networking and navigating today's changing entertainment landscape, the conversation is filled with practical advice for actors at every stage of their careers. Here's James Calleri, live at the Drama Book Shop!

[1:06] James Calleri: So we're going to talk a bit and I hope that you all have some questions prepared as well because I'm going to turn it over to you guys also. So the first thing that I wanted to talk about was the history of this book. You talk in the introduction about how this book has been around in various iterations since 1972. So what is the history of this book before you got involved with it when it was Robert Cohn writing it? And then we'll talk about your involvement as well.

[1:38] James Calleri: Yeah. This book was published in 1972 and when I was a kid growing up, I had an edition. I'm not sure what edition I had checked out. But I ended up going to graduate school to study acting and directing at the University of California, Irvine. And my mentor and my professor was Robert Cohn. So that began our relationship. And he was a very influential teacher for me. And then after I had been in New York for many years and working as a casting director for some time, he reached out to me and said, would you think about taking this on with me? Since he had an idea that I was in the trenches and knowing what was going on. And so we started that two editions ago. And then this edition I did on my own. He's very ill and he's no longer able to work on it, but his wife had asked me to carry it on. And so I found it as a good opportunity to give it a really hard look and give it a redo. So that's what this edition is.

[2:45] Mark-Eugene Garcia: What's your memory of having read it when you first came in contact with it?

[2:51] James Calleri: My memory is that it scared me a little bit, which I tried to hold on to. I thought that was actually a useful thing because I felt like if it convinced someone to go do something else, then maybe it was working. And I really tried to keep that tone, which is not unlike my tone, probably. So it all meshed together.

[3:12] Mark-Eugene Garcia: Was it used at all in classes when you were in school?

[3:16] James Calleri: It was. I don't know if it was used in our class, but I know schools that use it. Now I travel all over the country with programs that do use it. So it's a big book on the college circuit, I would say.

[3:33] Mark-Eugene Garcia: Two editions ago, when you first came on board, what do you feel your role was? I know what he felt you could bring to it. What did you feel you were bringing to the existing text?

[3:41] James Calleri: I think this is a dilemma with any professor that writes a book is unless you're in it and doing the thing, it's hard to talk about. So for me, there were a lot of things I just felt needed to be revised and updated as I was like, I don't think we look at ingenues this way. Whatever the things were back in the day, I felt this is not what's happening now. If you can, and if everyone here promises not to do math, which I know you don't have to convince theater people of, what was the year that you first came on board?

[4:24] Mark-Eugene Garcia: That's a good question. I don't know, I don't know. But I could look, I'm sure I'll tell you. But I would say it's probably 20 years ago.

[4:30] James Calleri: Okay. Safely. Okay. Early 2000s-ish.

[4:36] Mark-Eugene Garcia: Yeah. Okay. So yeah, that was an interesting time. And again, we won't do any math. I was in graduating high school, ending college in the early 2000s. So that was a time that there were some shifts. And of course, right now...

[4:48] James Calleri: There were some shifts. And also, even from when I started as casting director, which we'd have files of pictures of resumes, just files and files of that, and that doesn't exist anymore. And I mourn that loss at times, but...

[5:00] James Calleri: Come to my house, I still have files and files of people's resumes. I kept some of my favorites. But that's how I learned as a young casting director who actors were. Because every picture of resume I would flip over and read their credit, and that's how I learned who people were. So that was really, that was a useful time for me.

[5:22] Mark-Eugene Garcia: Yeah. And now, just before the publication of this book, obviously, we are in a massive shift as far as the industry goes, that I know that you wanted to reflect in this book.

[5:31] James Calleri: Yeah. I think it... What can I say? I think it initially was prompted by the pandemic. And at the same time, the Me Too and Time's Up movement, at the same time, equity, diversity, inclusion coming into the picture. There were so many things that I felt like really needed to be examined and looked at in a new way that I thought was going to be useful for a young actor.

[6:07] Mark-Eugene Garcia: Great. So I wanted to talk a little bit about just the history of the book, and I wanted to open it up to all y'all. And if you have any questions about the creation of the book, questions about the contents of the book, questions about... Do I see a hand, a tentative hand in the back? Oh, no. No, just... Okay. If you don't yet, that's cool. I have more.

[6:26] Mark-Eugene Garcia: So let's talk about... But keep the wheels turning. Let's talk more about some of the... I mentioned upstairs, I feel that this is lamented in academia. A, that unfortunately, that a lot of... I'm glad that this is making the rounds in colleges now, because I feel like maybe at least 20 years ago, there was a lot of lamenting that a lot of this professional side of it was not taught in schools, and you learned your art, but you didn't learn what to do with it when you got out. And that among many people I know, if you were told, given professional advice, it was maybe a couple of decades behind, which is why you talked about...

[7:10] James Calleri: I think that still exists pretty rampantly in college, hopefully getting better.

[7:17] James Calleri: Yeah, I think I felt if I was, and I was one, if I was a kid coming up, or even an actor that had recently moved to New York and or LA, what would be a useful thing to have to look at, to think about? And I go through from agents and managers section, to the audition room, to looking at picture resumes, website. I really try to cover the gamut of all those. In addition, I have a 10 things you need, which goes from talent all the way to freedom of entanglements and inhibitions. I have a list of things, I think, at least for me, that I believe you have to have some semblance of to work successfully as a professional actor.

[8:04] Mark-Eugene Garcia: Yeah. And how much do you use the... Sorry, I keep starting a sentence and then going back. Do you use this book in your classes when you teach?

[8:14] James Calleri: You'd have to... My students are here, so I'm trying to think. I do, particularly in the third year. I have these two in the front row, they're actually going into their third year. And the third year, how I teach is really almost, I want to say like a coming out party in the sense that I try to get the actors on the best foot forward to work successfully as an actor. And to me, that's introducing them to all the sort of things that are going to be coming at them, from agents to managers, to different casting directors, to how to submit yourself on actors access, to how to interview with the manager. I try to go through the gamut of those things. That's where I think the book comes into play. But most of the book is really just how I think and I think I teach. So I don't know if I necessarily go by the book, but it's what I believe and how I look at the world.

[9:09] Mark-Eugene Garcia: Yeah. Obviously, you're doing different jobs, you're serving different functions, but how do you feel that you function differently as a casting director versus as a professor?

[9:26] James Calleri: It's a tricky thing that I grapple with at times. I think they go hand in hand often, but I also think my work as a casting director has informed how I teach. And to me, I'm really grateful for that because it's given me a point of view about how I look at the business and at least from the actor's perspective, what they need to be thinking about. So I think they work very nicely in tandem.

[9:52] Mark-Eugene Garcia: Yeah. Have you seen things in auditions that you've thought, oh, or not even in the audition room, but have you seen things when working with actors that you've just gone, oh, someone needs to tell them this. Someone needs to teach them.

[10:10] James Calleri: Yes. Especially I'd say not to do that. Oh, every day. Yes. And that's for sure. Yes. Absolutely. I don't want to hear horror. That's not what we're here for. I believe that if you give those things power, they become more... So I try. No, no. You want to turn it into the positive and you want to say, make sure you do this, not hey, make sure that you don't act like this schmuck over here. But anyone who sat behind an audition table, buy them a drink and I'm sure that you can hear our story.

[10:42] Mark-Eugene Garcia: So what was the transition that brought you from studying acting and directing to wanting to be a casting director?

[10:52] James Calleri: It was really a workshop that I signed up for one weekend that Michael Shurtleff was teaching and Michael Shurtleff wrote, people know this, but he wrote the very, I think all important book, Audition. And I went to the workshop. It's in that section over there. It's in that left section over there. And I went to the workshop looking at it from an actor's point of view. And I thought, oh, this would be a really cool thing to have to do for a weekend. But when I left there, it blew my mind because he was talking about acting through a casting director's point of view, which I had never really thought about, nor did I even know existed. And so the way he spoke about the work from his vantage point of being behind the table, that sort of woke me up to a moment of, oh, this is actually what I want to go do. I'm going to go try to do this. And at that point on through graduate school, I was determined to be a casting director and I just didn't know how to do that.

[12:02] Mark-Eugene Garcia: That was my next question. It's like, how does someone... Now it's very different. When I started, I just packed up my car and drove across country in a wheelchair and I tried to figure it out. I actually started as an assistant at the Gersh Agency, a talent agency here. And that really gave me the entry point to talk to casting directors because I was on the phone with them all the time. That allowed me to pivot and ask those people if I could come work.

[12:50] James Calleri: I wanted to primarily be a writer and a director when I first, I wanted to be a star. And I think these days with social media, there's a lot more understanding of what all of the other jobs are. I know so many people who didn't even know what half those other jobs were until they got out of college, maybe. So what's your advice for people who are interested in studying theater, but not sure where they fit? Well, I talk about this in the book in the later sections, but I think as far as a casting director, I think it's very different from when I began because there are actually now training programs to learn how to be a casting director and internships that go on to apprenticeships to go on to leading to big jobs.

So that's a thing that happens now that we didn't have back in the day. But that said for me, it was just, I knew I wanted to work in the theater. I figured out that New York was going to be where that had to be for me. And so I had no option but to just get here and try to figure it out. And I do believe that the city offers so many opportunities to go into many different fields or many different ways or aspects of not just being an actor. I also think most of the actors I know today are not just actors. So I think that's the other thing is the multi-hyphenate actor or artist is the way of the world right now. And I think it's actually really useful and important, not just to have other stuff going on, but to have other creative ways to figure out the work, because I think it's so hard to do the actor thing.

[14:40] James Calleri: Yeah. Quick show of hands, who here is an actor? Oh, they all are. Everybody. Aren't we all? At all the world is a stage and we are all just actors playing our parts. And who here is also something else? Got some multi-hyphenate. Yeah. And I want to turn it back to you. Any questions about anything that's been discussed yet? Hi, good to see you. So you talked about this in some of your interviews I saw on YouTube and all the previous editions of this book about how your job, the part of it is that it's a taste business. And I really love that. I would love for you to talk a little bit about that.

[15:28] James Calleri: About taste? It's a taste business. Yeah. And it resonated with me, but I'd like you to hear what you would say about it today. And then I have one more question.

[15:40] James Calleri: Yeah. Oh, after do you want me to answer the first part first? I don't know. Let me think about the answer to this. It is a taste thing, right? Because what I like and what you might like could be very different things. And that doesn't mean one thing is worse than the other or better than the other. I always try to remember that, which I have a thing that I've told my students that I equate my job to working at. I think it's called Cups and Cones on East 10th Street. It's a really great ice cream store. And I always, when I go in there, I always think this is my job because it's really interesting flavors. It's really different types of ice cream. And I look at my job as making sure I have really great varieties of ice cream for my producers to choose from.

And that doesn't mean someone might like strawberry balsamic and somebody else might like wasabi ice cream with their weird flavors, but they're all really brilliant flavors. And to me, that's what my job is just making sure I have really great options for people to pick from. I don't know if that made any sense.

[16:46] Unknown speaker: It does, because that's not what I got from the first time I heard you say that's possible.

[16:52] James Calleri: Yeah. And if I can ask a very important follow-up question to that really quickly, East 10th and what?

[16:57] Unknown speaker: East 10th and I want to say between first and second out.

[17:01] James Calleri: Okay. Am I right? Between second and third. It's really fantastic because my favorite flavor is sweet corn. And it basically tastes like corn on the cob ice cream. I know that sounds not appealing, but it is so good.

[17:16] Unknown speaker: My best friend lives around the corner from me.

[17:17] James Calleri: Okay. You must do it. No, it's really good. She's not liking that. It's my favorite.

[17:24] Unknown speaker: And that speaks to taste.

[17:26] James Calleri: That speaks to taste. That's right. What was your second question?

[17:29] Unknown speaker: Yes, follow up. Thank you. So when you see actors spend too much time on the system, is there a general tendency that you notice? It's just like-

[17:41] James Calleri: In general?

[17:42] Unknown speaker: In general, like do you say to yourself, oh, I wish they didn't. There's like a general tendency of trap that actors fall into that spend too much time and energy on, that you wish they spent on other things?

[17:58] James Calleri: That's a good question. I think the flip side of me wants to say they take too much time about their pictures and things like that. I think it's easy to go down that rabbit hole. I always find it fascinating when actors can't decide on the right picture or the good picture, or they give me a hundred to look at as opposed to 10, that type of thing. And that happens a lot. But I would say, I think it's really easy to focus on what's not happening. What's not on the page, what's not. And what I mean by that is, and I think this is particularly true of right now, it's a really, it's a very difficult time that all the actors I know are going through. And to know you're not alone, to know that it's everybody's going through that experience, including agents, including managers, friends of mine that call me and say, I think you need to get out of the business.

I've been doing this for 30 years and I think I need to go figure something else to do because the work has, since the strike, the work is so contracted and that's going to be going on for a while. And it's happening this year and I expect it'll level out, but I don't think anything's going to ever be the same. So since the pandemic, since the strike, how do we go about still trying to be an artist and doing what we love to do? My father always told me I was very lucky. He always admired that I did something I really loved. And he said that didn't work for him. He just worked to raise his family. And I have to remind myself of that when things are difficult or when I'm overworked or when things aren't feeling great, I have to always remind myself that I'm really lucky to do something that I love and that I wake up every day, whether it's teaching or casting.

And usually they're both happening on the same day that I feel really grateful that I can do that while I can. I think it's easy to focus on what sort of what you don't have and what's not happening. And I think instead you have to figure out how to make things happen for yourself and how to be fulfilled and creative and do the stuff you want to do, whether hopefully that's acting, but if it's not acting, then finding other things you love to do to keep you as happy.

[20:23] Unknown speaker: I have a few people I have to text that to. Did you like that?

[20:30] James Calleri: Yes. Yeah. Hopefully recorded.

[20:36] Unknown speaker: Yeah. It's golden. We got it.

[20:36] James Calleri: Anybody else?

[20:36] Unknown speaker: Yeah. And then we're going to go over here. Hi, I'm Mila. Thank you for doing this. My question is, what is your prediction in the kind of film TV industry of things? Where are we going to go with auditions? Do you think it's going to just stay in the self-tape world or do you see a future where there's going to be that kind of in-person audition more in place than it is now?

[21:03] James Calleri: So my in-person stuff has come back, but it's only for callbacks and I don't see that changing. I personally love the self-tapes. We're seeing a lot more actors. I know it's a real drag for many actors I know, or they at least tell me, but I think, again, I'm always like, look at the benefit of it. Look that you don't have to schlep in across town and lose half of your day. And there's real benefits to, I think, self-taping. And so I try to remind actors of that. Plus, like I said, we're seeing a lot more. We're seeing three times the probably amount of actors that I could if I was only given a day in a room. And I really like the process of going through with my two partners, Erica and Paul, and talking about who are the dozen of actors that we want to present to the creative team. I enjoy that time of culling through the tapes and watching and figuring out as a group who we want to present. So I personally, maybe because I'm a control freak and I'm a Leo, there you go.

[22:04] Unknown speaker: Yes. Happy birthday.

[22:04] James Calleri: But I like that feeling. And so I don't think that's going away.

[22:13] Unknown speaker: And so we have another control freak, Leo, who's like, but I like feeling, walking in and being in control of my audition. What would you say to, I know one of the things that I hear a lot from actors is this feeling of discouragement that they're doing all of these self-tapes and it feels like sending them out into the void. And I think that there was this feeling of if you walk into a room and you audition for someone and you never hear back, you still got something from the person when you were in that room. And now they're acting to a camera and then they're sending it out. And sometimes I know that a lot of people are like, send me a YouTube link, but then they're downloading the YouTube link. So they can't even see if the YouTube video is being watched. And I know people feel very discouraged by that feeling.

[23:00] James Calleri: Yeah. I don't know. I think you just have to have trust in the process. And I always think the time the actor has to worry about to me is the time you get the audition, the time you get the material. And that goes until the time you send it out. After the time you've hit the send button, then I think it's like, go let God think about something else because I think it's impossible to worry about all the other things. I do trouble with writing submissions and I know that this is very different because I agonize over a play, but when it's done, I have a play and then I can send these the same play out a million times. But yeah, I know that I try to submit to so many things that I forget what I've submitted to.

So that if I hear back and it's a rejection, I'm like, oh, okay. I forgot about that one. And if I hear back and it's an acceptance, that's all. What a great surprise. I think the hard part is we don't give you that rejection. I mean, I think it's a rejection, but I'm not sending it to you. And as a writer, it's so rare that you hear anything back if you didn't get it.

[24:03] Unknown speaker: I'm going to go here first and then we'll come over here. Yes. Hi. I actually had a question kind of related to rejection. What do you think is better if an actor auditions to a hundred different roles, even though they're not in a perfect fit, or if they just audition to five roles that particularly resonate to them?

[24:15] James Calleri: How about one role that's really right for you? I would say the latter. I think the five roles that are closest to you is what's going to be most interesting to me, if I'm answering the question correctly.

[24:36] Unknown speaker: Yeah. Are you talking about reaching out to one casting director, or are you talking about casting a wide net? I've heard two different opinions, so I want to know what you think about it.

[24:50] James Calleri: Look, I think it's probably a little of both. I'm casting a play right now with Japanese actors, and we're doing the EPA. And I would say it's not useful if there's not the right part for you, or ethically, if that's not what we're looking for, that's probably not going to be a useful call for you to attend. It might be good for you as an experience to get your feet wet, but I would say wait and come in for the stuff that you think is really appropriate and right for. I would say target that way, if that's helpful.

[25:33] Unknown speaker: Yeah. All right, and then we had a question here.

[25:40] James Calleri: You mentioned that you see a lot of self-tapes, and because you see so many, is there either a technical thing or something that the actor could do that immediately catches your eye with self-tape versus everyone else's?

[26:10] James Calleri: So it's about good lighting, good sound, and do the work. I think this is going back to what actors maybe focus on that they shouldn't be. I think this is something that actors worry about more than they need to.

[26:25] James Calleri: I've never seen an actor not get a part because their self-tape wasn't great. Can it help you? Can it assist you if you really get it right? Absolutely. But don't spend too much focus and time on what the self-tape has to look like. It's got to be about the work, first and foremost. Because we'll forget if anything.

[26:49] James Calleri: What are your thoughts on AI? Is it coming to get us all? Yes, probably.

[27:07] James Calleri: Are actors going to have to sign their image for it? What do you know about that?

[27:33] James Calleri: I think the short answer is yes, to some degree. I think this is one of the issues that actors are striking over, and rightfully so. I think we don't know exactly what this is going to look like or how it's going to go, which is, I think, what's causing everyone such great concern to me.

[27:52] James Calleri: Because there are things right now that you can sign away, and then they do have free use. And that was the thing that was getting worked over with the rules of the strike. So hopefully that's getting hammered out, and those terms are going to be agreed upon. But I do think it's something that we think about and worry about.

[28:14] James Calleri: Sorry to follow up, but do you feel that there's any issue coming into your life where it's kind of like...

[28:23] Unknown speaker: Because of it?

[28:24] James Calleri: Yeah.

[28:25] James Calleri: No.

[28:26] James Calleri: No.

[28:27] James Calleri: I don't. Is that because someone's sick of me?

[28:30] Unknown speaker: No.

[28:31] James Calleri: Yeah, I don't.

[28:32] Unknown speaker: Me too.

[28:33] Unknown speaker: Yeah.

[28:34] Unknown speaker: And we have a question here.

[28:35] Unknown speaker: Hi, good to see you.

[28:36] Unknown speaker: So my question is also similar, just as a follow-up to the strikes. We have seen a lot of influx of A-list on-camera talent coming to Broadway to do these. I just wanted to see what your advice or insight is as a casting director who's doing this firsthand as well for us regular actors who are...

[29:00] James Calleri: I know it's frustrating too. Listen, ultimately, and I talk about this often in the book, is that it is a business. And in theater, just logically makes no sense anymore as a way to make money, as the odds of what could be a successful production or not.

[29:20] James Calleri: So I always try to remind actors that when you see a name like that, it's really to try to secure, number one, even just to get a theater, which is very competitive, and have even a shot at the people that have invested their money in that production to get their money back.

[29:39] James Calleri: So I think it's sometimes a necessary evil in commercial theater, and I used to fight it, and then I just went to the dark side with it. Because to me, it... And here's an example. I did The Elephant Man with Bradley Cooper, and he... The show was a big hit, and he decided he wanted to take the West End.

[29:59] James Calleri: And he took every single company member with him from New York, from the nurse that had two lines to the intern that was running across the stage. He took everybody with him. And to me, if you need to put Bradley Cooper and Patricia Clarkson into a play in order for it to run, to give those dozen other actors that are with equity employment for the next year, that to me seems like a small price to pay.

[30:26] James Calleri: So I'm... I don't know if that answers your question. But the other part of the thing that I think what you said is, the scary part is, yes, these actors are now signing up to do things on television.

[30:41] James Calleri: When I started working in TV, it was very hard to get those types of people to do a series. But because there's so much product, because there's so many streamers, because it's much more appealing doing a limited series, which are typically eight to ten episodes, that's really appealing for those bigger-name actors. So that's why they start jumping over to that arena.

[31:07] James Calleri: Again, I always try to remind myself, those people are making those shows and products happen. And that means there's more work and employment for the actors, for the casting director, for someone like me. So I'm all for it.

[31:26] Unknown speaker: Yeah. Hey, Dan.

[31:27] Unknown speaker: How are you?

[31:27] Unknown speaker: Good to see you.

[31:28] Unknown speaker: As an actor, as an actor of color, since the pandemic, I've noticed that I get... my agent or manager will send me scripts that are not written for my ethnicity. And I wonder, is that on the representation that's been submitted to me? Because a lot of... there was one time that it was... the language was so southern.

[31:52] Unknown speaker: Madeline McRae, I had asked her about it, and she said she couldn't read. I was like, I'm not sure.

[31:58] James Calleri: Okay, what do you suggest to do in that case? Because I just recently said, forget it, turn it down.

[32:21] James Calleri: I don't know the script, what actors could serve into it. But often I don't know. And so a lot of times we're shooting very wide to see what might work and what might fit. Oftentimes it comes from the casting people because we are trying to expand the horizons of the producer and the creative team.

[32:42] James Calleri: They might think they want this, but I'm also... my job is also to say, but what about this over here? I know you want this, but what about this? Again, it's like the ice cream. That's a great flavor, but this is also a really good flavor. You just haven't tried it yet.

[32:56] James Calleri: There's many things happening. There's also, at least in the world of theater and television, I'd say, but theater particularly, it has served mainly white actors, white audiences for a long period of time.

[33:09] James Calleri: And so that shift is happening. It's continuing to happen. And so the mandate from often many of the places that I'm employed is to make sure we bring in equally diverse actors from all over. And so there's many things happening when you see something like that.

[33:31] James Calleri: I would say don't, again, I would say for the actor, don't, I'd say fixate less on that and just come in and do the thing. The majority of times you're coming in for anything, you're not going to book the job. And I think it's okay to remind yourself of that, but the thing that you're doing is coming in and doing the thing.

[33:53] James Calleri: If you do the work and continue to do the work well, that will lead to the thing that you want to be doing most, which is working. And I think every audition is just another moment for us to be like, yeah, Danny's good. We'll keep bringing that guy in because eventually it's going to be the right thing.

[34:13] James Calleri: Maybe it wasn't the right role. Maybe you're absolutely right. It didn't make any sense, but just do a good job because we just see an actor doing a good job and I don't think about the other stuff. Is that helpful?

[34:25] James Calleri: I can say as a director, I've sat in callbacks where I see someone I'm like, there's not a role for this person in the show, and I don't mean this to waste anyone's time, but I'm like, but keep calling them back. I really like them. I want to see what they can do. And you never know. I've had times when I've got someone all the way through callbacks and there was just nothing that I had for them.

[34:50] James Calleri: And I kind of knew that even at the first callback, but I really liked them. And then three months later, I'm doing a project that I'm not having auditions for. And I go, this is why, again, if you come to my house, I have a folder full of every single resume I ever, and I call someone up and I go, hey, you auditioned for me for two shows and I didn't have a part for you in either of them, but I have this thing coming up.

[35:13] James Calleri: But also with that, I have friends that are Middle Eastern and a Middle Eastern part will come in and I go to other friends and they'll say, I don't want to audition because these people need to stop. Let them take it. And so they'll turn it down. Does that, I mean, out of respect?

[35:28] James Calleri: I think it's nice to have that out of respect, but you also have to understand that everything is changing so rapidly, particularly if it's television, that every day I'm getting a new draft of a script and they've changed the age, they've changed the race, they've changed the gender. It's constantly changing because no one knows what they're doing.

[35:51] James Calleri: And I mean that in a great, beautiful way, the creative process. You're just trying to figure it out as you go. And so, again, I wouldn't put too much weight on that. To me, it's like, I'd rather get the audition in, just make a good mark that, oh, that guy is great and he's doing good work. It's not for him. We don't think about that stuff too much, like who didn't get it. We just remember the people that are doing good work.

[36:15] James Calleri: I see this often, looking for a main actor for this part, actor's access, and I usually don't submit, but I don't submit for that because it's specified. We're looking for a main actor, but I really feel like this is perfect for me, but because of what I see, I just out of respect.

[36:44] James Calleri: I shouldn't be submitting anything because I'm not a main actor.

[37:14] James Calleri: We have to cover and oftentimes I find people that way. Does that make sense? But I think just have a reality check with yourself and know that's what it is. You can even acknowledge it. Hey, I know I'm not this, but if you ever need a rehearsal, a rehearsal reader or a cover or someone to stand by and help them learn lines, whatever that could be worth it.

[37:38] James Calleri: I wonder what's going on through the casting director's head in a way. I was wondering if you could maybe tell us an example of the last time you said yes to an actor and why you said yes to them.

[37:58] James Calleri: Here's the great mythology with casting directors. I'm rarely the yes. I'm the conduit to get you to the people that say yes. I champion people and I root for people and I might lead people the right direction to go your way, but I rarely am the one that can do the yes.

[38:20] Unknown speaker: Can you describe for a second, because I think that we've talked around it a lot with sort of an assumption that everyone knows what a casting director does and maybe not, and especially for our audience.

[38:31] James Calleri: I started off at Playwrights Horizons, and that was, it was really a writer's theater. So the writer and director had an equal weight in who they had to choose for a role, which was not an easy job to get two people on the same side. But my job is basically to curate the actors that are all over the city, the country, the world, whatever I might be working on, and giving them the best options to choose from. Did I answer your question at all? And then, like, how do you choose these best options out of everything else? Again, it's taste, right? So I go to the theater a lot, I see Broadway, Off-Broadway, whatever is going on. So I have to know what people are doing. I watch a lot of stuff, and I really just go on my gut instinct.

Also, I've been doing it a long time, right? So, like anything, there are people I really am fans of, or I really love, or I really champion, and I want them to get work, and so that's what I go to bat with first. And then also, you have to understand that agents and managers are also bombarding me with submissions, and so most of those people I know, that they're sending me, but they're always, every year, there's a new crop of people that are coming here that I have to get to learn, to know, and see what they're capable of, and that's when I bring most people in. Is that helpful?

[40:19] James Calleri: And if I, so from my perspective, when I'm directing a show, and I'm working with a casting director, and frequently, I'm the yes, or the producer is the yes, very frequently, the writer and the director will come to the casting director who they've hired and say, these are the types that we want, this is what we're looking for, this is what this role, this is what this role, this is, and frequently, a very good casting director will say, this person is different from what you said you wanted, but I really think you're gonna like them. Yeah, I think my job is to bring in exactly what they want, and then I also do the opposite, intentionally, to shake them up and make them look at the text a different way, or they might learn something about the character or the role that they hadn't ever thought of, and that's the cool part about my job. It's less interesting when I'm having to do exactly what they want.

[41:14] James Calleri: Seeing as how you have cast for Peter and on Paramount, can you talk about the differences between casting a Tanisha Lund-Dickinson versus a Peter Shannon-Broadway? Just some money. My friend. But I moved to New York to work in the theater, and I love it, but there was something really liberating about working in television and film, because it's so quick, it's really fast, and I could work on a play for a year or two before it ever gets to the stage, and with television, you're really seeing people one day, you're getting them in a fitting the next, and they're on set two days later, and I kind of love that. I love the pace of it. I love that an episode was happening every week, and I knew, as stressful as it was, I knew there was gonna be an actor on set when the shooting came, because it always works out.

I've never not been able to find what I need, and so I like the pace of television in many ways, though I find it exhausting, and I don't think I'd ever wanna do a network series I did for many years, and it's a killer, because it just never stops, and you're constantly casting every day, and I find that a little exhausting, but I'm grateful for it.

[42:35] Suzanne: Hi. Congratulations. So, what do you feel about the marketplace right now in New York, ever since COVID, or do you feel like we're coming back, and do you feel like the election is gonna have any impact on the content?

[42:53] James Calleri: I think the election, look, I think during difficult times, there's always really great art that's coming out, so I'm very bullish on that. I don't think that's gonna change. I think it'll get better, probably. Whether or not we're recording this podcast from Toronto will remain to be seen. Yeah, exactly. As far as the industry, I don't know. Has it gotten better? Not really, I don't think so. I think it's really tough right now, as I said, and so I think, yeah, I don't know. We'll see what happens. I definitely think it will improve. It's just gonna take some time, but I think theater's here, and I think the nonprofits are having a really hard time with it, but at the same time, they're producing amazing work, so I'm cautiously optimistic it's gonna get better.

[43:43] James Calleri: I wanted to go back really quickly to-

[43:45] Suzanne: Yeah, real quick. Suzanne, do you mind letting my husband in? He's outside, and he's just at the window. If you could let him in, that would be really great.

[43:51] James Calleri: Mark's got it. Oh, great, he is. Great, thank you. Mark's got it. Okay, thanks, sorry, sorry. I could see him, he was waving, and I was like, ah. Sorry.

[44:00] James Calleri: I wanted to go back to, we were talking a little bit, a lot, about people trying to get their faces, and their reels, and whatever in front of you, so that you can get them in front of the team, and this is a question that I feel that we get here at the bookshop a lot, especially from people who are starting out, because we have directories up behind, if y'all didn't know this, we have directories behind the register, and we have agent directories, personal manager directories, casting director directories, and I will frequently be working, and get someone who says, I don't know which one of those I should get, which one do you think I should get? And part of me, when, and this is not derogatory, part of me wants to say none of them.

If you don't know, then don't waste your money, but what do you, I always like to, when I have a casting director or an agent here, I always like to get your taste on, what do you think is the best place for someone who feels that they have the materials together, the reel, the good headshot, what do you think is the place to be putting that effort and that money if you're gonna be buying something when it comes to those directories?

[45:17] James Calleri: I think that's a trick, it's a tough question, trick question in many ways, because it's what comes first, the chicken or the egg. It's really, there's no, I wish I could say you, and I talk about this a little bit, I wish I could say you do this, and this will happen. None of that works that way. There's so many other elements, depending upon your context and networking and also the work you're doing, whether you're meeting people through a training program, through doing a production somewhere on East 4th Street down in the East Village, there are so many ways to get your foot in the door to make it happen, and I think it's really tricky using the shopping list of agents and managers. That's not useful, and it is, and I think if you have something you're doing or something you wanna show, I think that's a really good thing to use.

I think it's really hard just, unless you're astonishingly beautiful and 19 years old and you have something that no one else has, I think it's really hard to just cold email or I don't even know if people are mailing anymore, I don't think they are so much, so I think it's really hard to blindly reach out to those people, asking for representation, but I think if you're going to do it, you have to have something to offer.

[46:32] James Calleri: So I guess I would say then, from your perspective as a casting director, if someone was using the casting director directory, it always feels weird to say director directory, what do you want from someone who's gonna use that to reach out to you?

[46:47] James Calleri: I want people to know who they're talking to, so I think it's really important that the actor knows what the casting director is working on, why they feel like they might be appropriate or right for what I'm working on, and they know it's happening now. I think there are ways to find all that stuff out, and when an actor reaches out very specifically about something that I'm doing and also has a point of view and a sense of what they could be right for, that's really useful to know.

[47:20] James Calleri: Yeah, great. I was working on a production of Romeo and Juliet downtown, and I would get a lot of self submissions of just actresses saying, I wanna come in for Juliet, and I'm thinking, in no world am I gonna be able to cast this person as Juliet. Elizabeth Olsen's playing Juliet for me, because again, that's the reality of having a name in the production. But when they say, and I think I could be a great understudy for Elizabeth Olsen, or maybe there's a smaller part or a role in the ensemble that I could be appropriate for, that tells me that they've done their homework and they know what's going on. Is that helpful?

[47:56] Suzanne: Yeah.

[47:57] James Calleri: I hope so.

[47:58] Suzanne: Yeah. I'm not pursuing this acting.

[48:00] James Calleri: Yeah, no.

[48:01] James Calleri: But I think so. I think we've got time for one more question.

[48:04] Suzanne: Yeah. In terms of having, going off of having something to offer, would you say there's a market opportunity for actors? Is there a skill that you wish more actors had at a role, speaking a certain language, or maybe knowing martial arts or being of a certain type?

[48:20] James Calleri: I think all those things are useful. I think the more special skills you have, the better off you are, right? Those are just things you can have in your back pocket. But I think the other side to that question is just the actor that knows himself as best they can is gonna be the actor that's most useful for me. Because ultimately, I have to assume the actor's talented. I'm assuming you've gone to class. I'm assuming that you're trained or you have experience and all those things. And then once that's happened, I'm looking for an actor that has a really interesting point of view about life. Because those people with the point of view are gonna have a really clear viewpoint of what they're doing with any material I give them. So just really knowing who you are is the best thing possible for me.

[49:11] Suzanne: You're welcome.

[49:14] James Calleri: So yeah, it always feels cheesy to be like, be yourself. But yeah, I think that's the crux of it.

[49:23] James Calleri: And I love you saying a really clear point of view because that does not sound as cheesy as just be yourself.

[49:28] James Calleri: Yeah, I think it's hard to be.

[49:30] James Calleri: It can be.

[49:31] James Calleri: It certainly can be.

[49:33] James Calleri: But thank you for being yourself here with us tonight and your experience and expertise. Thank you all for coming down to the Drama Bookshop tonight.

[49:43] David Rigano: And we are back.

[49:45] David Rigano: Thanks for listening to this episode of the Drama Book Show. Our thanks to James Calleri for sharing their decades of experience and offering thoughtful, practical guidance on what it takes to build a sustainable career in today's entertainment industry. Whether you're just beginning your journey or already working as a professional, acting professionally is an invaluable resource for navigating the business of acting.

[50:11] David Rigano: Coming up next on the Drama Book Show, we explore a fascinating rediscovery from the world of dramatic literature. We'll be joined by editor Jonathan Cohen and actor Guy Mirano for a conversation about My Excellency, a brilliant political satire by Puerto Rican playwright Luis Rechani Agreit, presented in the long-lost English translation by William Carlos Williams. Together, they'll discuss the play's remarkable history, the importance of preserving overlooked theatrical voices and why this 80-year-old comedy still feels surprisingly relevant today.

[50:47] David Rigano: So remember to follow us on Instagram at dramabookshowpodcast. Remember to follow our eventbrite at dramabookshop. And all the books we talk about can be found here at the Drama Bookshop, and so can we, and we will. See you at the bookshop.