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[0:00] Mark-Eugene Garcia: Welcome to the Drama Book Show, where we bring you conversations with the writers, artists and theater makers shaping today's stage. I'm Mark Eugene Garcia.

[0:28] Mark-Eugene Garcia: In this episode we're joined by playwright Ellen Abrams to discuss Eleanor and Alice, her witty and deeply human play imagining the lifelong relationship between two extraordinary women, Eleanor Roosevelt and Alice Roosevelt Longworth. Though first cousins, they were often political opposites, sometimes friends, sometimes rivals, and always fascinating figures whose conversations reflected the changing landscape of the 20th century America. Together we explore the history behind the play, the challenge of dramatizing iconic historical figures, and how theater can illuminate the private relationships behind public lives. Here is our conversation with Ellen Abrams.

[1:13] Ellen Abrams: Thank you for coming to witness live excerpts from my play, Eleanor and Alice, Conversations Between Two Remarkable Roosevelts. As David said, this play was performed off Broadway at Urban Stages Theater in New York in the fall of 2022 and the spring of 2023, and thanks to its discovery by the great Francis Hill, who was the artistic director of Urban Stages. I won't bore you with the terrific reviews, but trust me, they are quite nice.

[1:39] Ellen Abrams: As many of you might know, Eleanor was orphaned by the time she was 10. Her mother died of diphtheria when Eleanor was only 8, and her father, who seemed to have been suffering from both alcoholism and mental illness, jumped to his death two years later. She was only 10. She lived a lonely existence up in Tivoli, New York with her grandmother and very eccentric aunts and uncles.

[2:03] Ellen Abrams: Alice was born on February 12th in 1884, the same year as Eleanor. Two days after she was born, her mother died of undiagnosed Bright's disease, which is what we call nephritis nowadays, and her grandmother died of typhoid fever on the same day, so this is Teddy's wife and Teddy's mother died on the same day. Very shortly thereafter, Teddy, still in a state of shock over his losses, took off for the Black Hills of the Dakotas to start a business raising cattle, leaving Alice to be raised by her beloved Aunt Bambi. He returned to New York when Alice was two years old. Eleanor was the quintessential Democrat, Alice the most Republican of Republicans. Both were two of the most influential and fascinating women of the 20th century.

[2:53] Ellen Abrams: My rendering of the rest of their lives will be performed for you this evening by Laura Foyce, playing Eleanor Roosevelt, wife of President Franklin Roosevelt, and Megan Magee plays Alice, Eleanor's first cousin and Teddy Roosevelt's exceedingly high-spirited daughter, and now let me give you a background of our actresses. Laura is a founding member of Up Theatre Company, dedicated to developing and producing new works in Upper Manhattan. She has also performed at MCC Theatre, the York Theatre, EST, Emerging Artists, Theatre for a New City, and the Lions Theatre on Theatre Row. Megan is an actor and director in theatre and film, specializing in new works. She has performed at Cherry Lane, Theatre Lab, Theatre for a New City, The Triad, and many times at the Arthur Selig Theatre at the former Drama Bookshop.

[3:56] Ellen Abrams: And now I present to you Eleanor and Alice. This setting is the wraparound porch at President Theodore Roosevelt's weekend home in Sagamore Hill in Oyster Bay, Long Island. Eleanor and Alice are 19 years old. It is 1904.

[4:19] Eleanor: Why is she always late, even at her own home? It is so like her.

[4:27] Alice: Eleanor, darling, lovely to see you. I hope I haven't kept you waiting.

[4:39] Eleanor: Not for too long. I would apologize for being late, but I never apologize. That is a point of pride with me. I never do it.

[4:47] Alice: It is no surprise to hear you say so. Wonderful to see you, dearest. The last time we met was at the family reunion. I told my friend how pretty you looked, so confident, so lively. And you certainly look healthy.

[5:06] Eleanor: I always love it here at your Sagamore. Although it is rarely peaceful, it is so much fun.

[5:24] Alice: Of course it is. I live here. Remember when the cousins used to race down that hill?

[5:31] Eleanor: I remember I beat everyone to the bottom, even you, despite how much longer your legs were.

[5:36] Alice: So energetic, much like your father.

[5:44] Eleanor: That's just what I always hoped he would say. May I share something absolutely evil with you?

[5:53] Alice: If you like.

[6:01] Eleanor: After President McKinley was shot down like a big, dumb bison in Buffalo, Ted Jr. and I ran down onto the lawn right there.

[6:12] Alice: Yes.

[6:12] Eleanor: We most certainly did. A jolly old drunken Irish jig, and without a whiskey in sight.

[6:17] Eleanor: And we danced a jig.

[6:17] Alice: It is terribly wicked to be so delighted about a presidential assassination. Think of how poor Mr. McKinley must have suffered from that gunshot.

[6:30] Alice: You did not.

[6:30] Eleanor: But you can understand it, can't you? We were desolate when Father became Vice President. The end of his political career, we thought. And then, only six months later, what luck. That awful anarchist shoots a gun. And my father, your uncle, Theodore Roosevelt, becomes the 26th President of the United States. Isn't the law of succession a wondrous thing?

[7:06] Alice: I suppose so, but celebrating a man's murder is not proper at all.

[7:12] Eleanor: Stop sulking about decorum. You are the favorite niece of the most popular president since George Washington.

[7:18] Alice: I do not know about being anyone's favorite anything.

[7:24] Eleanor: Don't play coy, dear. Everyone knows Father prefers you to me.

[7:31] Alice: Uncle Ted would never play favorites. It is not in his nature.

[7:31] Eleanor: He calls me guttersnipe, and he begs me to act more like you.

[7:37] Eleanor: The hell it isn't.

[7:37] Alice: I do not believe any such thing.

[7:43] Alice: Eleanor, your language.

[7:43] Eleanor: You are more like him than I am. Performing your goody-goody works with the Junior League in the city, teaching filthy urchins to read, or whatever it is that you do.

[7:59] Alice: You could do it, too. So many less fortunate children and their families need every bit of relief we can offer.

[8:06] Eleanor: I couldn't care less about the less fortunate. And their lives are too sad, I'm sure.

[8:14] Alice: You do so enjoy shocking me.

[8:20] Eleanor: I do, indeed. But it is also how I truly feel. I'm only surprised that you and your settlement friends care so much about strangers.

[8:28] Alice: The Hebrew Bible says, do not neglect to show hospitality to strangers, for thereby some have entertained angels unawares.

[8:36] Eleanor: Very pithy of the Hebrew Bible. Might I ask you to show hospitality? What do you do with your days in Washington?

[8:43] Alice: I think you might enjoy settlement work. Tell me, what are you fervent about?

[8:52] Eleanor: Fun. Every day I try fervently to have as much fun as I can fit into twenty-four hours. I make Father and Step-Mama Edith furious with my antics, which makes it even more fun.

[9:06] Alice: Dear, you are positive. I'm sure you are positively glowing. Have you found a missing jigsaw puzzle piece? Heard a naughty joke? Or have you merely been walking briskly?

[9:14] Eleanor: The truth is, there is something, someone, a new friend in my life. And?

[9:25] Alice: I have a favor to ask of you.

[9:33] Eleanor: My answer is yes.

[9:41] Alice: You do not even know what I...

[9:45] Eleanor: Does it rhyme with Cridesfade?

[9:53] Alice: Cridesnade?

[10:05] Eleanor: Yes. However did you guess? Darling, the last time we met, every sentence you uttered included an anecdote about your mysterious friend, who I assume is Cousin Franklin?

[10:12] Alice: Congratulations, dear girl. Aside from his Mama, you are the first person who knows. She insisted that we keep our engagement a secret. For a year.

[10:27] Eleanor: Who could keep an engagement secret for that long?

[10:36] Alice: I think she believes, or hopes, that Franklin will have a change of heart.

[10:44] Eleanor: By Godfrey, what a witch! You're not afraid he will find someone else, are you?

[10:51] Alice: It is just, he is so handsome. He could have any girl he wants. Any beautiful girl.

[11:05] Eleanor: Darling, you are the girl he wants.

[11:11] Alice: I can scarcely believe my good fortune at marrying at all, let alone Cousin Franklin. He could do so much worse than you.

[11:29] Eleanor: Thank you. I did not mean that quite the way it sounded.

[11:35] Alice: I too have set my cap for someone that Father introduced me to, Congressman Nicholas Longworth of the Ohio Longworths.

[11:42] Eleanor: We aren't exactly engaged yet, but that is just a matter of time and some prodding.

[11:49] Alice: I have no doubt of your success.

[11:54] Eleanor: Have you heard the story that Father has been telling? The one about when the writer Owen Wister visited the White House?

[12:07] Alice: I was dashing about like a dervish, as usual, wearing my pet snake Emily like a necklace, and Mr. Wister complained.

[12:17] Eleanor: Father replied, I can run the country, or I can control Alice, but I cannot possibly do both.

[12:24] Alice: Sagamore Hill. Eleanor and Alice are 34. It is 1920.

[12:42] Alice: What a miserable waste of good young men the Great War was.

[12:49] Eleanor: If you disliked the war so much, why did you taunt Franklin when he was running for Vice President with Mr. Cox for not joining up?

[12:54] Alice: It was a matter of being a Roosevelt. Doing the right thing when your country calls. But Franklin and Cox lost anyway.

[13:06] Eleanor: Now that I think of it, Franklin might have been lucky to have lost an election so early in his life. He can watch from the sidelines of my brother Ted and I mow down every competitor on our way back to the White House to take up Father's mantle.

[13:17] Alice: In point of fact, despite losing, Franklin is more committed to political life than ever.

[13:24] Eleanor: And what makes you think so?

[13:32] Alice: It's a private matter.

[13:40] Eleanor: Oh, a secret. I love secrets. You can always tell me a secret. I love them more than life itself.

[13:56] Alice: Not a secret. Just private. Personal. Another war wound, in a way.

[14:04] Eleanor: Ah, I know what you are referring to. You can't possibly.

[14:12] Alice: Of course I do, darling. You couldn't have been completely surprised. Handsome husband and father stuck in Washington while the wife and chicks head off for the summer. Your lovely secretary stays behind.

[14:26] Eleanor: I will forgive him. Eventually. Possibly.

[14:33] Alice: But I have a memory like an elephant. I will never forget.

[14:40] Eleanor: Come now, Eleanor. Never's a very long time. We are sophisticated people. We forgive. We forget. We move on.

[14:49] Alice: He deceived me in such a tawdry way. He was bored and lonely and one long hot summer and he fell in love with another woman. When he loved me, I knew I was worth loving. I once thought Nick loved me, but it turned out it was my family name he adored. He never cared two figs about me. I found Lucy and Franklin's love letters when I was unpacking his bags from a trip. And when I did, the bottom fell out of my world. The sense of betrayal nearly destroyed me. I saw them that summer, Lucy and Franklin motoring together.

[15:00] Alice: You knew?

[14:34] Eleanor Roosevelt: For his political career. And Mr. Howe, his campaign manager, reminded him that he could never aspire to higher office as a divorced man. Poor Franklin, he didn't have much choice then, did he? Poor Franklin, indeed. I offered him his freedom. I did not relish divorce in the least, but I insisted on one, unless Franklin renounced Lucy for good. If he had not promised me that, I could not have gone on with him. If only I could have divorced Nick in 1912, as I had wanted. But Father convinced me it would have been a betrayal of the American people. So Nick and I have remained together. I hope the American people are reassured. In most circumstances, I believe divorce should be avoided.

[15:35] Alice Roosevelt: You are confident that Franklin will keep his promise to stay away from Lucy?

[15:41] Eleanor Roosevelt: Of course. He is an honorable man.

[15:50] Alice Roosevelt: You think so? I have heard it whispered that some of our relations, not me necessarily, wondered if dear cousin Franklin originally admired you because of your close relationship to his hero, my father?

[16:03] Eleanor Roosevelt: Is that what the family thinks? That Franklin was drawn to me because of Uncle Ted, and not because he loved me for myself?

[16:10] Alice Roosevelt: Now don't be so dramatic. I was just being provocative. It is my particular gift, as you know. So will you take a lover?

[16:20] Eleanor Roosevelt: What a question! You know me better than that. I will continue to work with the League of Women Voters. Now that we women have the power of the vote, we must use it. Although I was no suffragist, I adore voting. It is one of my two great passions in life. Champagne is the other. Make that three. I have taken a lover.

[16:49] Alice Roosevelt: How could you do such a thing? It is immoral. You are a president's daughter.

[16:56] Eleanor Roosevelt: Why shouldn't I? Father is gone, and everyone knows what Nick is. The congressional doorkeeper calls him the biggest womanizer in the history of the capital.

[17:13] Alice Roosevelt: What if somehow we were given the ability to go back to our girlhoods again before we made these marriages? Would we make the same decisions, the same mistakes?

[17:20] Eleanor Roosevelt: Don't look back, dear. Just don't. The secret to my happiness is not to brood on things. Avanti, as the Italians say, ever forward.

[17:35] Alice Roosevelt: I wish I could move on. But once a bell has been rung, it cannot be unrung. And I cannot stop thinking about it.

[17:43] Eleanor Roosevelt: Very sad, I'm sure. To me, it is the saddest thing in the world. Sagamore Hill. Eleanor and Alice are 38. It is 1922.

[17:56] Alice Roosevelt: Good God, you look awful. I hope you received my letter. I meant every word I wrote. We have all been desperately worried about Franklin. Edith and Ted Jr. too.

[18:12] Eleanor Roosevelt: I received no letter from you or Ted. Edith wrote a kind note, though. Must have gotten lost in the mail. How vexing.

[18:21] Alice Roosevelt: I said something about how happy Franklin could be now, living quietly at Hyde Park, out of the public gaze, with nothing more vigorous for him to do than to look at his stamp collection. And how sad that his political career ended quite before it started.

[18:40] Eleanor Roosevelt: Actually, Franklin does not believe his political future is over. That sort of self-deception might help keep his spirits up, no?

[18:49] Alice Roosevelt: I don't think so. I don't think so. I almost cried too when I heard he had contracted polio. Just such a vigorous man he was. Lovely dancer, tall and graceful. Nick has no talent on the dance floor. But my husband does other things on floors, of course. Just ask Sissy Patterson, that potato-faced newspaper heiress who he seduced on my Persian rug, and who actually had the cheek to ask that her purse and stockings be returned to her.

[19:36] Eleanor Roosevelt: I'm sorry, what was that? What were you saying?

[19:44] Alice Roosevelt: Nothing very important. Have you tried prayer? They say it reassures people in distress.

[19:54] Eleanor Roosevelt: I do pray, in fact, every night. I pray that Franklin will recover from this terrible affliction. But neither prayer nor medicine will make that miracle happen.

[20:01] Alice Roosevelt: Who knows about these things? Perhaps he will mend in a year or two.

[20:07] Eleanor Roosevelt: There is no possibility of that. None. Do not despair, dear. You will still manage to live very well, even if Franklin never recovers, thanks to his mama's lovely lute.

[20:21] Alice Roosevelt: Is it possible that you do not understand our situation? Our family, our world, has come near to collapse. Franklin's needs are endless. I work with therapists, removing clammy sheets from his bed, monitor his children's visits. I insert catheters, empty bedpans.

[20:51] Eleanor Roosevelt: Please, no more details. Everyone needs more of me than I have to give. I fear I am failing all of them, all of the time. And I do not have the luxury of collapse or surrender, which is all I want to do.

[21:07] Alice Roosevelt: If I were you, I'd hire more help.

[21:13] Eleanor Roosevelt: If I were you, I'd hire more help.

[21:27] Alice Roosevelt: The setting is Eleanor's homey little cottage, Valkill, up the road from the big house in Hyde Park, New York. Eleanor and Alice are 48 years old. It is March, 1933.

[21:41] Eleanor Roosevelt: You must be awfully pleased with yourselves. Franklin did terribly well, didn't he? Almost 23 million votes, and he carried 42 states. The country has elected the right man for our times.

[21:49] Alice Roosevelt: The wrong man for any time. Hoover should have demanded a recount. How many illegal immigrants voted? How many dead Democrats? Your party has stolen what was rightfully ours, my brother's, Ted's.

[22:06] Eleanor Roosevelt: I am still a bit surprised that Mr. Hoover didn't lose by a greater number. One third of the country is unemployed, don't forget.

[22:13] Alice Roosevelt: I can't quite place which historical tyrant Franklin reminds me of most, Caesar or Robespierre?

[22:21] Eleanor Roosevelt: Alice, dear, you look pale. Perhaps you should lie down to recover.

[22:30] Alice Roosevelt: Is it true that your special friend, the lady reporter, will be spending time with you at the White House?

[22:36] Eleanor Roosevelt: Do you mean Miss Hickock? What are you implying?

[22:43] Alice Roosevelt: Everyone knows about your sapphic circle, Eleanor. I hardly think that my friend should interest anyone but me. I still have a private life to be respected.

[22:50] Eleanor Roosevelt: You cannot possibly be that naive. Washington is a bonfire of gossip. Anything that goes on in or around the White House is fuel for it.

[23:03] Alice Roosevelt: That will not be true of the Roosevelt White House.

[23:11] Eleanor Roosevelt: But, my dear, it already is. And Franklin has barely taken office. Rumors are rampant.

[23:20] Alice Roosevelt: Alice, do you have anything to do with this, this storytelling?

[23:29] Eleanor Roosevelt: Not very much.

[23:35] Alice Roosevelt: That is scandalous. Insupportable. How little you know about Washington. My Republicans will reveal your weaknesses and revel in doing so. And it gives me only small pleasure to say the nation will suffer because of it.

[23:55] Eleanor Roosevelt: We shall see, won't we?

[24:02] Alice Roosevelt: Val Kill, Eleanor and Alice, are 60 years old. It is 1944.

[24:12] Eleanor Roosevelt: After the Great War, I was a confirmed pacifist. But this situation is different. Absolutely dire. All war is terrible. There's no rationale for any of them. But your Franklin manipulated the entire country into this one.

[24:20] Alice Roosevelt: You know very well that Franklin did not maneuver us into this war. There could be no isolationism after Pearl Harbor. We need not wage that tiresome argument between us again.

[24:32] Eleanor Roosevelt: The Japs only bombed us after Franklin refused to sell them the oil they needed. We should have listened to Lindbergh. If we had listened to Lindbergh, we would all be speaking German right now.

[24:49] Alice Roosevelt: Even your brother Ted resigned from your isolationist America First Committee the day after the attack. Can you even begin to imagine how I feel after losing him? I have no one left but my nervous, stuttering daughter Paulina.

[25:03] Eleanor Roosevelt: Our family's losses have been tragic. It was heroic for all three of your brothers to join up and serve their country, given their ages. In my column, I wrote about their bravery and sacrifice.

[25:16] Alice Roosevelt: No one I know reads your column anymore. Not after the Marian Anderson debacle in '39. Americans only want to speak about the good features of this country and to hide our problems like skeletons in the closet.

[25:31] Eleanor Roosevelt: Nothing good can be accomplished with that attitude. Fretting about the colored people when we were on the verge of war? Priorities, Eleanor, where were your priorities?

[25:50] Alice Roosevelt: We must address the issues of our day in the moment as they occur. And the issue of Negro rights is a vital concern that must be addressed now. One of the main destroyers of freedom in our country is our punishing attitude toward the colored race.

[26:02] Eleanor Roosevelt: You are becoming a menace. Do you know that? Some of these ideas you spread about in your column, they're anti-American.

[26:08] Alice Roosevelt: I have over four million readers. Think of the attention I have been able to direct to the most important issues of our times.

[26:16] Eleanor Roosevelt: You must be raking in money hand over fist. The columns, your little articles, chatty speeches. Who wears the pants in your family anyway? You or Franklin?

[26:29] Alice Roosevelt: In fact, last year I did earn more than Franklin from my writing.

[26:37] Eleanor Roosevelt: Do your dear, devoted readers know how much filthy lucre you collect?

[26:43] Alice Roosevelt: I donate all of it to charity.

[26:52] Eleanor Roosevelt: Of course you do. I see newspaper photos all the time of you pestering injured soldiers at military hospitals. Can't you just let them recover in peace?

[27:05] Alice Roosevelt: Some of them just want a mother to talk with, to hold their hand. There was one boy whose face had been mostly blown off by a grenade.

[27:11] Eleanor Roosevelt: Oh, please, Eleanor, I can't listen. His entire head was wrapped in gauze with just a small portal to breathe through. How do you possibly have the mettle to do it?

[27:24] Alice Roosevelt: In any case, you and your husband have stayed on too long. Time for both of you to relinquish the reigns.

[27:30] Eleanor Roosevelt: That is for the people to decide. We will be gone soon enough.

[27:41] Alice Roosevelt: Val Kill, Eleanor and Alice, are 73 years old. Hurry, Alice, or we shall miss it. Come, the future will not wait for us.

[27:48] Eleanor Roosevelt: We must catch it before it flies away. The path outside needs attention. I almost slipped on a blanket of leaves and broke my neck. Get someone to see to it immediately. Alice, quickly.

[27:59] Alice Roosevelt: I think I see something. Alice.

[28:07] Eleanor Roosevelt: Are you sure? I see a bright light. Is that what you're seeing?

[28:17] Alice Roosevelt: And there it goes. Oh, and once I thought driving a car was spectacular. It was back in its time. But time, it seems, has moved on.

[28:40] Eleanor Roosevelt: I'm shaking all over. You always have been the excitable type. You're not moved at the sight of such a thing.

[28:47] Alice Roosevelt: I am not even sure what we're looking at. The tail end of, what, a beach ball in space? Just the mere fact of it is extraordinary.

[28:55] Eleanor Roosevelt: I don't understand the thrill about something that doesn't actually do anything. I read that Sputnik means traveling companion. What a clever name. Such a waste, don't you think? Firing off something that is just going to destroy itself and end up who knows where.

[29:02] Alice Roosevelt: I know you are grieving for your dear Polar Bear. I'm sorry, Alice.

[29:09] Eleanor Roosevelt: How can I help you? Talk to me.

[29:12] Alice Roosevelt: I am completely inconsolable. I cannot even bear speaking of her, of it.

[29:18] Eleanor Roosevelt: I am desolate for you. Poor Lina was a lovely, kind, young woman.

[29:24] Alice Roosevelt: No one has paid a higher price for bad mothering than me.

[29:29] Eleanor Roosevelt: But I must thank you for the lovely, the extraordinary letter you wrote to me when she died.

[29:38] Alice Roosevelt: It was—

[29:39] Eleanor Roosevelt: She was a spirit, perhaps too fragile for this world.

[29:42] Alice Roosevelt: Please let me say it. I am not used to speaking like this, but I must tell you—

[29:46] Eleanor Roosevelt: Not necessary.

[29:47] Alice Roosevelt: It was the kindest letter I have ever received.

[29:52] Eleanor Roosevelt: So tender, so caring, I cannot tell you how deeply your words touched me.

[29:58] Alice Roosevelt: Please, no need.

[30:02] Eleanor Roosevelt: I tried so many times to reply to it, but every time I did, I just buckled.

[30:07] Alice Roosevelt: I couldn't even write her name. Only now can I speak it.

[30:11] Eleanor Roosevelt: My dear Alice—

[30:12] Alice Roosevelt: Be thankful you have never outlived a child. It is the worst thing imaginable.

[30:21] Eleanor Roosevelt: Pardon me, Eleanor, please. I had forgotten.

[30:25] Alice Roosevelt: That was so long ago.

[30:30] Eleanor Roosevelt: Forty-eight years.

[30:33] Alice Roosevelt: I still visit the baby's grave, so he is less lonely.

[30:38] Eleanor Roosevelt: When the time comes, I will be buried next to poor Lina in Washington and be with her forever.

[30:48] Alice Roosevelt: By the way, happy birthday in advance, Eleanor.

[30:53] Eleanor Roosevelt: What a strange age to be. Seventy-three.

[31:00] Alice Roosevelt: I have been feeling it lately.

[31:03] Eleanor Roosevelt: When I was young, I could envision being old, just not getting old.

[31:10] Alice Roosevelt: Everything has become a bit more difficult.

[31:15] Eleanor Roosevelt: Did it ever occur to you that in a way, you and I have always been like Queen Elizabeth and Mary, Queen of Scots?

[31:26] Alice Roosevelt: Rivals battling for control of a great nation.

[31:30] Eleanor Roosevelt: I never thought of us like that.

[31:32] Alice Roosevelt: They never met, of course, and we've known each other all our lives, but think of it.

[31:38] Eleanor Roosevelt: Alike, but different. Royal, but real women, too.

[31:44] Alice Roosevelt: Which of us is which? I would never have you beheaded, Alice.

[31:50] Eleanor Roosevelt: Could you promise the same to me?

[31:53] Alice Roosevelt: Ay, perhaps it is fortunate that we didn't live back then.

[32:01] Eleanor Roosevelt: Val Kill, Eleanor and Alice are seventy-eight years old. It is nineteen-sixty-two.

[32:08] Alice Roosevelt: I brought you a gift. A duplicate of the pillow I keep in my home in Washington.

[32:16] Eleanor Roosevelt: Thank you so much. What does it say?

[32:20] Alice Roosevelt: If you can't say anything good about someone, sit right here by me.

[32:29] Eleanor Roosevelt: How perfectly that captures you.

[32:32] Alice Roosevelt: It doesn't it?

[32:34] Eleanor Roosevelt: The original has pride of my place in my living room on full nasty display.

[32:39] Alice Roosevelt: I will keep it there. Hear it, Val Kill, and think of you fondly.

[32:45] Eleanor Roosevelt: Won't all your liberal friends be shocked when they see it?

[32:48] Alice Roosevelt: They will, indeed. Nobody thinks I have a sense of humor.

[32:53] Eleanor Roosevelt: Of course you do. You're just terribly good at hiding it.

[32:59] Alice Roosevelt: You and Franklin certainly achieved everything you aimed for, didn't you?

[33:05] Eleanor Roosevelt: Almost accidentally. And not without a multitude of hiccups along the way.

[33:11] Alice Roosevelt: Our two families were like sky rockets that passed each other in the darkness.

[33:17] Eleanor Roosevelt: One launched, brilliant and dazzling, and then without warning began to fade and fall.

[33:26] Alice Roosevelt: One even as the other, even more brilliant and more dazzling, soared higher and still higher into God's embrace.

[33:33] Eleanor Roosevelt: I could see it even as it was happening. It was unstoppable.

[33:38] Alice Roosevelt: You and Franklin were unstoppable, and nothing in the world made me angrier.

[33:44] Eleanor Roosevelt: You did not hide it from anyone, ever.

[33:49] Alice Roosevelt: Fate marked you for greatness, I am sure of it.

[33:52] Eleanor Roosevelt: I do not believe in fate. I believe in honesty, hard work, and caring for others.

[34:00] Alice Roosevelt: No, it was fate. Much as I tried to convince myself that they were, my brothers were not our father.

[34:10] Eleanor Roosevelt: In fact, Franklin was more like him than his own sons.

[34:14] Alice Roosevelt: Your brothers were all good men, good Roosevelts.

[34:19] Eleanor Roosevelt: But not fated for greatness.

[34:22] Alice Roosevelt: You are the Roosevelt that will be remembered.

[34:26] Eleanor Roosevelt: It should have been us, but...

[34:29] Alice Roosevelt: Life does have an unpredictable way of upending one's dreams.

[34:34] Eleanor Roosevelt: That is the galling truth.

[34:36] Alice Roosevelt: It has taken me nearly forty years to understand and almost accept it.

[34:42] Eleanor Roosevelt: I certainly don't like it.

[34:44] Alice Roosevelt: It is all in the past now.

[34:46] Eleanor Roosevelt: Time to move on from grudges and rancor.

[34:50] Alice Roosevelt: I could try, but it won't be easy.

[34:54] Eleanor Roosevelt: Someone told me, in jest, obviously, that President Kennedy nominated you for a Nobel Prize.

[35:03] Alice Roosevelt: Yes, perhaps something of the sort.

[35:06] Eleanor Roosevelt: Called you a living symbol of understanding and peace.

[35:10] Alice Roosevelt: Pointless chatter.

[35:12] Eleanor Roosevelt: Your modesty has long been an unfortunate fetish, my dear.

[35:16] Alice Roosevelt: If you say so.

[35:19] Eleanor Roosevelt: Of all the President's wives, none of us has used her position in quite the same way you have.

[35:26] Alice Roosevelt: Although I am sure I would have.

[35:29] Eleanor Roosevelt: If you had been a President's wife?

[35:31] Alice Roosevelt: If I had been President.

[35:34] Eleanor Roosevelt: Do you think we will ever have a Lady President?

[35:37] Alice Roosevelt: The twentieth century certainly seems one for miracles.

[35:41] Eleanor Roosevelt: If we have enough female voters, perhaps we can vote one in ourselves.

[35:46] Alice Roosevelt: I do not think we can count on men for that.

[35:49] Eleanor Roosevelt: It is time for the women in our family to start their own Roosevelt political dynasty.

[35:55] Alice Roosevelt: The important thing is that we meet life with courage and with the best that we have to give.

[36:00] Eleanor Roosevelt: That sounds fine, but not everyone has your courage.

[36:04] Alice Roosevelt: Well, beg pardon, what did you say?

[36:06] Eleanor Roosevelt: What was that?

[36:07] Alice Roosevelt: Well, did you say something?

[36:08] Eleanor Roosevelt: I don't believe I did.

[36:09] Alice Roosevelt: Indeed.

[36:13] Eleanor Roosevelt: We have lived extraordinary lives, haven't we?

[36:18] Alice Roosevelt: Indeed we have.

[36:20] Eleanor Roosevelt: I am so glad that we lived it together.

[36:26] Alice Roosevelt: Yay!

[36:47] Eleanor Roosevelt: Thank you so much.

[36:48] Alice Roosevelt: And now we will have a little chat with the author.

[36:52] Eleanor Roosevelt: Can we give them another hand?

[36:54] Alice Roosevelt: Please.

[37:03] David Rigano: So, hi, Ellen.

[37:05] Ellen Abrams: What a lovely excerpt.

[37:08] David Rigano: Thank you.

[37:09] Ellen Abrams: And I have been reading the play.

[37:12] David Rigano: I didn't make it all the way through.

[37:13] Ellen Abrams: But I know that there's even more delights in there.

[37:17] David Rigano: I loved the part where they're watching Sputnik.

[37:21] Ellen Abrams: I thought that driving a car was because I loved the scene.

[37:24] David Rigano: What a great line.

[37:26] Ellen Abrams: There's a line early on where she goes, oh, you don't learn how to drive a car. You just get in it and drive.

[37:30] David Rigano: And as someone who has never enjoyed driving and, in fact, does not have a license.

[37:37] Ellen Abrams: You're a true New Yorker.

[37:39] David Rigano: Yes, yeah.

[37:40] Ellen Abrams: So I want to talk to you a little bit about these two remarkable women, one of whom, of course, history really remembers.

[37:48] David Rigano: What sparked the idea for you to write about them?

[37:53] Ellen Abrams: Did it start with Eleanor?

[37:55] David Rigano: At what point did you say there's a play in this relationship?

[37:58] Ellen Abrams: Let's see. It did start with Eleanor, as everything good does.

[38:02] David Rigano: And I read about her.

[38:05] Ellen Abrams: I've read about her. When my first Eleanor biography I read, I was in third grade.

[38:10] Ellen Abrams: It was like from the scholastic book. I reprimanded my parents because by the time I read it, it must have been 65-ish.

[38:20] Ellen Abrams: And I know I'm dating myself. And I reprimanded my parents for not telling me that Eleanor Roosevelt had died.

[38:27] Ellen Abrams: I was 63.

[38:30] Ellen Abrams: And so that really, it set me off for many years.

[38:33] Ellen Abrams: And I've read other biographies of her and seen movies and things like that.

[38:37] Ellen Abrams: And then when I started developing or delving more into Eleanor, and then you find Alice.

[38:42] Ellen Abrams: I had known about Alice as well. Alice lived until 1980.

[38:47] Ellen Abrams: She was born in 1884 and lived until 1980.

[38:50] Ellen Abrams: She met every president starting with Cleveland.

[38:54] Ellen Abrams: And she did not meet Reagan because he wasn't quite inaugurated by the time she died.

[38:59] Ellen Abrams: She didn't meet Jimmy Carter because she didn't want to meet Jimmy Carter.

[39:02] David Rigano: Oh, okay.

[39:04] Ellen Abrams: But she met JFK.

[39:06] Ellen Abrams: She loved Jackie. She was crazy about Bobby Kennedy when he was attorney general.

[39:10] Ellen Abrams: She was in Washington. Her father was Teddy Roosevelt.

[39:14] Ellen Abrams: He had her foot in everything and sometimes her foot in her mouth.

[39:18] Ellen Abrams: And she used to do an imitation of Eleanor at Republican dinner parties.

[39:24] Ellen Abrams: And apparently it was quite cruel and yet somewhat accurate.

[39:29] David Rigano: And at some point Eleanor asked her to do an imitation of her in front of her.

[39:34] Ellen Abrams: And she demurred.

[39:36] Ellen Abrams: That was a little too far even for Alice.

[39:39] David Rigano: Okay.

[39:40] Ellen Abrams: So Eleanor never got to see this infamous—

[39:42] David Rigano: No, Eleanor didn't get to see it just as well.

[39:44] Ellen Abrams: But they're fascinating. They're like you can't find – it's great when you go into history and you discover two people who are the exact opposites and you can write about them.

[39:51] Ellen Abrams: And there are stories about them and there's writing about them.

[40:00] Ellen Abrams: And they already have this wonderful connection that's there for you to mine.

[40:04] David Rigano: Exactly.

[40:05] Ellen Abrams: They are first cousins, not third cousin.

[40:07] David Rigano: Christopher's cousin I wasn't close to, but we weren't like this.

[40:10] Ellen Abrams: Yeah.

[40:12] Ellen Abrams: And they're just literate, interesting people who have seen the world and they are fun to write about and fun to read.

[40:20] David Rigano: So then – and it sounds like a lot of the research was done before you decided to write about them.

[40:25] Ellen Abrams: Because I had done just general research that wasn't even research.

[40:30] David Rigano: Yeah, not research, just for the fun of—

[40:32] Ellen Abrams: Yeah, I was just reading it.

[40:33] David Rigano: So what kind of research goes into writing a play like this?

[40:38] Ellen Abrams: Yes.

[40:39] Ellen Abrams: And I had a book of Eleanor's columns.

[40:42] Ellen Abrams: I had – Eleanor wrote a memoir, a big memoir that they divided into three parts.

[40:47] Ellen Abrams: And then because it was so long, they republished it and they just put it into one book.

[40:52] Ellen Abrams: So I had that one book because I didn't want to read three books.

[40:55] David Rigano: Smart.

[40:55] Ellen Abrams: And Alice also had her memoirs, which are not nearly as entertaining as Eleanor's.

[40:59] David Rigano: Right.

[41:01] Ellen Abrams: And then, of course, there are all these articles.

[41:01] David Rigano: You had said to me upstairs that despite being a kind of bon vivant and a wild thing at parties, siphoning that into writing was not her talent.

[41:12] Ellen Abrams: It wasn't her talent.

[41:13] Ellen Abrams: Her talent was being a conversationalist.

[41:15] David Rigano: Yeah.

[41:16] Ellen Abrams: And I think Nixon called her the most entertaining woman in Washington.

[41:21] David Rigano: Right.

[41:21] Ellen Abrams: And yes, if you could take those slings, she'd beat up on you, even if she liked you.

[41:27] David Rigano: Right.

[41:29] Ellen Abrams: But she was crazy for Bobby Kennedy, so I guess she didn't beat up on Bobby Kennedy.

[41:32] David Rigano: Yeah.

[41:33] Ellen Abrams: She thought he was cute.

[41:34] David Rigano: Sure.

[41:34] Ellen Abrams: So it's just there's so much written about Eleanor, and there's enough written about Alice that you can underway through and develop her character just from things other people said.

[41:45] Ellen Abrams: She was at some dinner party and babbling on about something or other, and another guest said,

[41:54] Ellen Abrams: You speak, Kev, do you remember the quote?

[41:58] David Rigano: No.

[42:06] Ellen Abrams: You speak more silliness with more certainty than anyone I ever met.

[42:07] David Rigano: Wow.

[42:09] Ellen Abrams: But she loved it. Being called on her silliness.

[42:09] David Rigano: Sure.

[42:15] Ellen Abrams: So from that point where you say there was enough written about Alice, how much do you have to fill in the gaps with guesswork or just purely invention and dramatization?

[42:24] Ellen Abrams: It's an interesting question because with Eleanor, there's very little you need to fill in.

[42:26] Ellen Abrams: It's all there.

[42:29] David Rigano: Right.

[42:29] Ellen Abrams: But with Alice, you do have to do some filling in.

[42:31] Ellen Abrams: And you just find what you think is the kind of way she would respond to a question or an issue.

[42:36] Ellen Abrams: And it's not hard to find that.

[42:38] David Rigano: Right.

[42:40] Ellen Abrams: It's hard to find the specifics of that.

[42:42] David Rigano: Sure.

[42:42] Ellen Abrams: And then that's when you let your imagination go crazy and say, How would she say this?

[42:45] Ellen Abrams: She was against the war. How would she say she was against the war?

[42:50] David Rigano: Right.

[42:50] Ellen Abrams: And doubtless, they had conversations where she hated World War.

[42:55] Ellen Abrams: She loved World War I until it was over.

[42:58] Ellen Abrams: She hated World War II.

[43:03] David Rigano: Right.

[43:06] Ellen Abrams: As a lot of Americans did, they were eager to get into World War I, but it was such 18 months of horror.

[43:09] Ellen Abrams: As many men, American soldiers were killed in the 18 months we were in World War I as in the years we were in Vietnam, the 8,000.

[43:14] Ellen Abrams: It was a terrible war.

[43:16] David Rigano: Yes.

[43:19] Ellen Abrams: And World War II, of course, millions were killed.

[43:20] David Rigano: Right.

[43:20] Ellen Abrams: But Alice was by then against any international intervention, as were many people and many Republicans and conservative people.

[43:29] David Rigano: Right.

[43:29] Ellen Abrams: And, of course, she was younger during World War I.

[43:33] David Rigano: Right.

[43:35] Ellen Abrams: So I don't know how—

[43:35] David Rigano: So she's only 1884. In 1914, she's—can I do the math? Thirty.

[43:42] Ellen Abrams: Thank you for having me. I'm really excited to be here and talk about my play, "Eleanor and Alice."

[44:12] David Rigano: We're thrilled to have you! Your play brings together such fascinating historical figures. What inspired you to write about Eleanor Roosevelt and Alice Roosevelt?

[44:35] Ellen Abrams: Well, I've always been intrigued by their relationship. They were first cousins, but they had such different lives and perspectives. Their dynamic is filled with tension and humor, which I found compelling for a theatrical exploration.

[45:05] Mark-Eugene Garcia: It sounds like a rich tapestry of conflict and camaraderie. Can you tell us about the structure of the play? How do you approach their conversations?

[45:32] Ellen Abrams: The play is structured around eight pivotal moments in their lives. Each scene captures a different stage in their relationship, showcasing their debates on personal and political issues. It’s a blend of humor and serious discourse.

[45:59] Dylan Glick: That sounds fascinating! How did you go about researching their lives and the historical context for the play?

[46:29] Ellen Abrams: I read extensively about both women, their biographies, and the historical events they were involved in. I also looked at their letters and speeches to capture their voices authentically.

[46:56] David Rigano: It must have been quite a journey to dive into their correspondence. Did you find any surprises in their writings?

[47:23] Ellen Abrams: Absolutely! I was surprised by how candid they were about their feelings towards each other and their political views. Their letters revealed a lot of vulnerability and complexity.

[47:50] Mark-Eugene Garcia: It’s interesting to think about how their personal lives intersected with their public personas. How do you balance that in the play?

[48:17] Ellen Abrams: I try to highlight both aspects. Their personal struggles often mirrored the political climate of their times, so it’s important to show how their experiences shaped their views and actions.

[48:46] Dylan Glick: What do you hope audiences take away from "Eleanor and Alice"?

[49:15] Ellen Abrams: I hope they see the humanity in both women. They were powerful figures, but they were also flawed and relatable. Their story is a reminder of the complexities of family, friendship, and politics.

[49:44] David Rigano: That’s a beautiful message. Have you had any memorable reactions from audiences so far?

[50:13] Ellen Abrams: Yes! Many people have expressed how much they enjoyed the humor and the sharp exchanges between Eleanor and Alice. It’s great to see them connect with the characters.

[50:43] Mark-Eugene Garcia: Humor can be such a powerful tool in storytelling. How do you weave it into their debates?

[51:13] Ellen Abrams: I think humor often arises from tension. Their disagreements can be quite sharp, but I try to infuse moments of levity that reflect their personalities and the absurdity of some situations.

[51:43] Dylan Glick: It sounds like a delicate balance. What has been the most challenging aspect of bringing this play to life?

[52:13] Ellen Abrams: The biggest challenge has been capturing their distinct voices while also making the dialogue feel natural and engaging for the audience. It’s a fine line to walk.

[52:43] David Rigano: It sounds like you’ve put a lot of thought into it. Are there any particular scenes that you’re especially proud of?

[53:11] Ellen Abrams: Yes, there’s a scene where they discuss their husbands and the pressures of being public figures. It’s both humorous and poignant, and it really encapsulates their relationship.

[53:39] Mark-Eugene Garcia: That sounds like a powerful moment. What’s next for you after this play?

[54:09] Ellen Abrams: I’m currently working on a new project that explores another historical figure, but I’m also eager to see how "Eleanor and Alice" evolves with each performance.

[54:39] Dylan Glick: We can’t wait to see what you create next! Thank you so much for joining us today, Ellen.

[55:07] Ellen Abrams: Thank you for having me! It’s been a pleasure.

[55:35] David Rigano: And thank you to our audience for being here. Don’t forget to check out "Eleanor and Alice" and support your local theater!

[56:03] Mark-Eugene Garcia: Until next time, keep the drama alive!

[56:31] Dylan Glick: Bye everyone!

[56:59] Ellen Abrams: Bye!

[57:29] Audience: *Applause*

[57:59] David Rigano: See you next week!