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[0:00] Mark-Eugene Garcia: Hello, and welcome to the Drama Book Show. My name is Mark Eugene Garcia.

[0:22] David Rigano: My name is David Regano. This episode, we explore the craft of storytelling through the perspective of a filmmaker and editor who has spent more than three decades shaping stories behind the scenes. We're joined by Mark Solomon, author of Over the Shoulder: A Freelancer's Guide to Telling Stories and Editing Films, for a conversation about the art of visual storytelling and the lessons he has learned through his career as an editor, producer, writer, and teacher.

[0:52] Mark-Eugene Garcia: So Mark, you've been, you mentioned in the last episode that you've been doing some short films, some indie films. Not short films, you've done like full-length indie films. It's interesting, I, to watch, because I know the director in that, and also some of the editors, to watch the stories change and how that's even possible. We watched a rough cut of one of the movies a year ago when it first was filmed, and the director said, what do you think? And I was like, do you want my dramaturgy hat? Or do you want my hat of seeing myself on a screen? And he's like, your dramaturgy hat. I'm like, I have notes. And how often are you like, oh, they used that take. I've never been about that take. I'm usually such a storyteller person that I'm more focused on that. I'm like, oh, that's interesting.

[1:36] David Rigano: Well, because we were talking, we started to talk about how sometimes the editor can have more control over the storytelling than even the director does. And dramaturgically, you might have tried a couple of different choices in a couple of different takes, and you're like, oh, they went with that take, which means that now that's what the line reading is. And dramaturgically, that's what it means now. And moving forward with the scene, now that affects the storytelling.

[2:06] Mark-Eugene Garcia: Oh, 100%. Yeah. It's one of those that when that happens, you're kind of like, if it's still in process, then you can talk to your director. But if it's done, it's like, all right, cool, it's done.

[2:15] David Rigano: He says, I want your dramaturgical.

[2:17] Mark-Eugene Garcia: Yeah. And that was my thing. And my thing is always on story. And so I had notes, and I think that he'd also gotten some other notes, and he decided to do some reshoots, which was cool. And we did the reshoots, and it was great. But then also, when I finally watched the final cut of it, scenes had been moved. Things that we filmed that were in the script at a certain point were actually now at a different point. And it made so much sense. And that was all done in editing. And that was all done. It was like, oh, actually, if we do this, this changes that. Scenes were cut. It's so hard, I think, to see that your scenes were cut. I don't care. It's all about story for me. So I'm like, if this scene isn't needed, drop it.

[2:56] David Rigano: It's so interesting, because a few episodes ago, we were talking about collaboration, and all of the collaborative parties. And my best friend, Katie Carlisle, who was here for my event, interviewing me, we talked a little bit during our interview about the fact that we are collaborating on a series. And every now and then, we'll have a moment where we'll be like, does that line work? Or should we end the scene before that line? Or should we have that final line of the scene? Or we're like, I don't know if she should react that way, or if she should react this way. And sometimes, we're like, you know what? We're doing this for film. This isn't for theater, where you have to commit to one, at least for a workshop, see if it plays for or not. We're like, we can film both.

[3:43] Mark-Eugene Garcia: And see what happens. So there are parts of the script where we have just a little flag that might not use this line, but we are going to film it. And then we can see the edit with it. We can see the edit without it. We can see how this line or the alternate line affects the dramaturgy, affects the storytelling.

[4:01] David Rigano: Yeah, it's wonderful. Sometimes I wonder if that would be something I would have gotten into in a different path, because I love doing that with my work. I love when I'm writing something. I love making cuts. I love changing things. And I had that. There was one project I was working on where I had this big choice a character was going to make, and I couldn't decide. I knew how the story was going to end, but this choice would affect other things in the story, not the ending. And I just couldn't decide, did I want to do either? And so I wrote both. And I had at one point two drafts next to each other, until I finally decided, this is the choice. This is the one I like the best. And you're allowed to do that, to have that going.

[4:37] Mark-Eugene Garcia: That's our thing. Both of us come from theater first. She's working a lot more in film on the production side right now, which is very helpful. We're writing things, and she is now has a perspective of, oh, we can do this. This is how we get the location. And if we film it here, we blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. But I'm not sure who that is. So yet, but like both of us are creatures of the theater first. And so it really is taking like a shift in our brain to remember that we have the power of the edit is part of the creation.

[5:16] David Rigano: I love it. I love it with this podcast. So we can edit out the person that just knocked on the door or I can leave it in. We'll see what happens. But aside from that, it's like, because I'm such a control freak, like I love acting in film because of that. Because there is always like that weird safety net of, oh, if this didn't turn out so well, it's okay. We can edit. We'll do another scene. We'll do it again. Where in theater, you can't. You're in the moment.

[5:40] Mark-Eugene Garcia: That's such an interesting way of thinking of it because, and I don't want to take anything away from you, but like to me, I feel like I have more control on stage. I am fully in control of my performance in this moment and what I am doing and the choices that I am making where, as we said on film, if we do it three or four or 10 or whatever times, I don't know which take is going to, I don't know which choice is going to end up. I have trust in the collaboration that you have.

[6:09] David Rigano: You have to have that, but it is giving up, to my mind, it is giving up an amount of control to that collaborator.

[6:15] Mark-Eugene Garcia: Yeah. I think for me, it's the ability that at any point as I'm performing on film, if I'm not feeling it, I can be like, I'm sorry, we're going to need to do this again. And you can't do that. If you haven't caught the emotional moment that you need to hit in theater, you better commit to something else because you got to finish through that scene and you may not have got there. So that's what I mean with that. The same reason I like writing theater and not writing film because in film you don't keep control over your script, where in theater you do.

[6:41] David Rigano: Yes.

[6:41] Mark-Eugene Garcia: And in film, it goes to the editor. So yeah, it's...

[6:47] David Rigano: But I also, I, as, again, like going and putting the collaborative hats on, as someone who is a writer and a director, I love taking off that director hat when I'm writing. And sometimes I write something, I use this example all the time. One of my plays has two children run through a plate glass window into a display of cakes at a Junior's and they are then covered in frosting and glass and blood. And people say to me, how do you do that on stage? And I go, I don't know. Not my job.

[7:18] Mark-Eugene Garcia: That's your problem.

[7:19] David Rigano: Yeah. That is the director's. And every now and then I do think through some logistical things just so I can say, yes, it's possible. But I also know that there's no world in which you're going to have your actors literally, you're not going to set up a new sugar glass display window every performance. So it's going to be theatrical. So they'll, you know, the director and the lighting designer and the sound designer, like that probably will have almost nothing to do with the set designer. But you never know.

[7:49] Mark-Eugene Garcia: Yeah. And I fully love giving up that amount of control and saying someone else's job to figure that out.

[7:59] David Rigano: I like it. I like it. If I were editor, I may have edited this this segment a little shorter so we can get directly to our topic at hand. But I'm going to leave it in because it was all fun stuff to talk about. But moving on, let's listen to the pro with Mark Solomon here live at the Drama Bookshop.

[8:18] Mark Solomon: It does my heart glad to see you here tonight. You come from far away and people I've known for a long time and new faces as well. It's a real pleasure to be here tonight at the Drama Bookshop to do this. So welcome. To speak at this renowned venue, the Drama Bookshop is a real honor. And I thank Mark Garcia and Dave and the staff here for making this evening possible, making me feel so welcome.

[8:44] Mark Solomon: The way I see the world is through stories. It's the water I swim in. I wrote Over the Shoulder to share with you what I know about visual stories and how to manage freelance life as an editor. The book focuses mostly on how it's a night to give you a little something extra. I'll talk more personally about why. Why storytelling is so important to me and how my own life story transformed. You could call it why a good story has the power to create positive change.

[9:18] Mark Solomon: What lit the fuse for me was this movie Harold and Maud that I saw when I was 18 years old. It's a beautiful life affirming story of a comic romance with great songs by Cat Stevens. And I left the theater that night feeling like I was floating on air, so exhilarated and uplifted. I decided right then this is my path. This is the work I want to do to make people feel what I felt that night.

[9:47] Mark Solomon: So I decided to go to film school. I went to Syracuse, a university where I'd have the resources, the equipment, everything I'd need is what I thought except for one little thing. I had a difficult time in film school. I felt a passion for films and filmmaking, but I had no idea what to make a film about. The books assigned for class were dark about the loss of meaning. My lectures were filled with talk of symbiotics and the schizophrenic nature of Hollywood and I was living in the shadow of a nuclear arms race and the Cold War. We all were.

[10:23] Mark Solomon: In my fourth semester I was meant to complete my final project to graduate and I found myself choked with fear without any means of expression. I felt lost and helpless. What story did I want to tell? I had no idea and I felt intimidated by the power of a blank screen. My expectations from my family were paying for all this and from my own self-loathing. My world got smaller and smaller and I didn't have the adult coping skills to see a way out of the corner where I had dated myself. So I escaped through drugs and denial.

[11:10] Mark Solomon: I made excuses. Maybe if I spoke a little more pot I'll come up with some great idea or maybe if I ignore it the problem will just go away. I felt a dread in my forearms like the bones were turning hollow. It was very uncomfortable feelings and emotions. Shame, anguish, humiliation, fear. I felt an outer pressure to graduate on time as the days dwindled by and an inner pressure that choked me not knowing what story to tell for the film or for myself. I was desperate and berated myself for not knowing where to begin, how to start on top of the universal pressure of living in a world headed in the wrong direction. I felt something inside me snap and I spun out of the

[12:34] David Rigano: Welcome back to The Drama Book Show! Today, we have a very special guest, Mark Solomon, who is here to discuss his book, "Over the Shoulder: A Freelancer’s Guide to Telling Stories and Editing Films." Mark, thank you for joining us!

[12:54] Mark Solomon: Thank you for having me! I'm excited to be here and talk about storytelling and editing.

[13:04] Mark-Eugene Garcia: So, Mark, you have over 30 years of experience in Hollywood. Can you tell us a bit about your journey and how you got into film editing?

[13:24] Mark Solomon: Absolutely! I started off in the industry working on various projects, and I quickly realized that editing was where my passion lay. It’s fascinating to see how the story evolves in the editing room, and I’ve had the privilege of working on some iconic films like "Shrek" and "Space Jam."

[13:54] Dylan Glick: Those are some classic films! What do you think makes a good editor, especially in terms of storytelling?

[14:14] Mark Solomon: A good editor needs to have a strong sense of narrative and pacing. It's about understanding the emotional beats of a story and knowing when to build tension or release it. My book dives into these elements, offering practical advice for aspiring filmmakers.

[14:44] David Rigano: That’s really interesting. You mentioned in your book the importance of suspense and contrast. Can you elaborate on that?

[15:04] Mark Solomon: Sure! Suspense keeps the audience engaged, and contrast helps to highlight the emotional stakes. For instance, if you have a dramatic scene, cutting to a lighter moment can create a powerful juxtaposition that enhances the overall impact of the story.

[15:34] Mark-Eugene Garcia: I love that! It’s all about the rhythm of the story. How do you approach cross-cultural storytelling in your work?

[15:54] Mark Solomon: Cross-cultural storytelling is about understanding and respecting different perspectives. I believe that every culture has unique stories to tell, and as an editor, it’s crucial to honor those voices while also finding universal themes that resonate with a wider audience.

[16:24] Dylan Glick: That’s a great point. In your experience, what are some common pitfalls that new editors should avoid?

[16:44] Mark Solomon: One common pitfall is losing sight of the story in favor of flashy techniques. It’s important to remember that editing is a service to the story, not just about making things look cool. Always keep the narrative at the forefront of your decisions.

[17:14] David Rigano: That’s solid advice. You’ve worked on a variety of projects, from animated films to live-action. Do you find that the editing process differs between these genres?

[17:44] Mark Solomon: Yes, definitely! Animation often requires a different approach because you’re working with pre-visualized material. In live-action, you have to be more adaptive to the performances and the nuances of the actors. Each genre has its own unique challenges and rewards.

[18:14] Mark-Eugene Garcia: Speaking of challenges, what has been one of the most rewarding projects you’ve worked on?

[18:34] Mark Solomon: I would say "Frankenweenie" was particularly rewarding. It was a labor of love, and working with Tim Burton was an incredible experience. The film had a unique style, and it was fulfilling to help shape that vision through editing.

[19:04] Dylan Glick: Tim Burton has such a distinct aesthetic. How did that influence your editing choices?

[19:24] Mark Solomon: Tim’s vision is always very clear, which makes the editing process smoother. His style often involves a blend of whimsy and darkness, and as an editor, I had to ensure that both elements were balanced throughout the film.

[19:54] David Rigano: It sounds like a fascinating process. For those looking to break into film editing, what advice would you give them?

[20:14] Mark Solomon: My biggest piece of advice is to keep honing your craft. Watch films critically, practice editing with different styles, and don’t be afraid to experiment. Also, networking is key—build relationships with other filmmakers and learn from their experiences.

[20:44] Mark-Eugene Garcia: Great advice! Your book sounds like a fantastic resource for aspiring editors. What can readers expect to take away from it?

[21:04] Mark Solomon: Readers can expect practical tips, real-world anecdotes, and a deeper understanding of the editing process. I aimed to create a roadmap that not only teaches the technical aspects but also inspires creativity and storytelling.

[21:34] Dylan Glick: That’s wonderful! I’m sure many will find it invaluable. Thank you for sharing your insights with us today, Mark.

[21:54] Mark Solomon: Thank you for having me! It’s been a pleasure discussing these topics with you.

[22:04] David Rigano: And thank you to our audience for joining us on The Drama Book Show! Be sure to check out Mark's book and follow us for more exciting discussions in the world of theater and film.

[24:08] Mark Solomon: And he becomes a real hero during the war. He warns the soldiers about mustard gas. He captures a German soldier. This is all based on true events and he was an extraordinary guard dog. The next tool of storytelling besides contrast and cause and effect is Johaku. It's a Japanese idea that sort of means beginning, middle, and end. But rather than simply beginning, middle, and end, which is what we talk about where something starts, it goes on for a little while and then it stops. The idea of Johaku is that you start with a very particular intention when you're going to start and where you're headed. That's Jo-ha is rising action and Kyu is a turning point. And it creates a motion like a wave in the ocean.

So rather than just walking across, beginning, middle, and end, if you go Johaku, you build this little crescendo that carries people forward over the course of the story. And it can be a short one, just like a little walk, or it can be a whole scene or a whole act in the whole production as a whole. It also has Johaku, da-da-da, and then an open space. And that's what people remember because this rhythm's been built up continuously over the course of the show. That moment when it opens becomes memorable. So there's little crescendos that build a natural rhythm. This is another scene from a movie that I worked on called Chicken Run, where the chickens are in a farm in Britain. And there was an egg-laying farm, which could be somewhat grim, but they survived and they managed to live anyway.

Chickens laying their eggs and growing on a farm. The farmers were not satisfied with that and created a chicken pie machine to kill the chickens and make pies. So this is a scene where they are discovered in the book. Ginger is the leader of the chickens, and Rocky is an American interloper who is soft on her. And notice how the little moments become like little crescendos. There's something that leads up to something, and then this stops and what? What size is that thing? Oh, no! It's a little queen. Ah, come and hold. Chicken pie. Not apple pies. Chicken. Brilliant. I'm coming! I'm still coming! Shoot!

[27:35] Mark Solomon: I'll be down before you can make it! I'm all fixed. It's the book! What is your... Uh... Stop! Get it? Stop! Stop! A moment's breath. Ha! Get back! Stop! Stay off! Look out! What the fuck is that? Stop! Shoot. Stay! Stop! They seem to be safe. I don't know. It's like an oven in here. Come on! I'm big. Of course. Come on! No! Come on! No! Get the idea? So, Johaku. Starting up, building, and then a turning point. Turn over, and you carry along in that rhythm. And you don't feel exhausted because there's little breaks in between the actions. So, the next tool that a storyteller can use in visual stories is expanding and contracting time. Not only can you have contrast, cause and effect, in this feeling of Johaku, but you can open and expand time or compress it to add suspense and add drama to the story.

Now, in this next clip is from Pulp Fiction, where John Travolta has taken Uma Thurman out on a date. She's a gangster's girlfriend. And by accident, she takes an overdose where she falls into a coma. And if she dies, it's going to be the end of John Travolta, so he's desperately trying to revive her. Just to warn you, there's a little coarse language in the beginning. I hope you're not offended. I don't know exactly where her heart is. I'm going to leave it to you. All right, what I need is a big fat magic marker. You got it? What? A magic marker. A felt pen! A fucking black magic marker! Come on, man, hurry up. Oh, fuck. Okay. Okay. Okay. I think it's ready. All right, please hurry up, man.

Hurry up. Here, I'll tell you what to do. No, no, no, man. You're going to give her the shot. You're going to give her the shot. I've never done this before. I've never done this before either, all right? I am starting now. Look, you brought her here, and that means that you're going to give her the shot. Then I bring an ODM to your house, then I give her the shot. Give her the shot. Give it to me. Yeah. Give me that. All right, tell me what to do. Okay. So you're giving her an injection of adrenaline straight to her heart, but she's got a breastplate. You've got to pierce through that. So what you've got to do is you've got to bring the needle down in a stabbing motion. I've got to stab her three times?

No, you don't have to fucking stab her three times. You can do whatever you want, but it's got to be hard enough to get to her breastplate into her heart, all right? And then once you do that, you press down on the plunger. Okay, then we'll have... I'm curious about that myself. Fuck you, so I'm not going to kill her. I'm not going to kill her. I'm not going to kill her. She's fucking come out of it. I like that. All right, kill it through. Ready? One. What are the editing changes? Two. Three. Four. Five. Six. Seven. Eight. Nine. Ten. Eleven. Twelve. Thirteen. Fourteen. Fifteen. Sixteen. Seventeen. Eighteen. Three. Time expanded and contracted, where all this stuff played in real time. They were in a big hurry at the beginning, and then once he starts counting, and he raises the needle, everything stops and slows down.

Quentin Tarantino milks it for all his words. So those are the tools that you can use, some of the tools you can use to tell a story to make it engaging. And then those are all part of Pa. And then Q, the turning point, the turning point of the whole story is a moment that opens like a flower. Think of E.T. When Elliot is furiously riding his bicycle, trying to get his alien friend away from the adults who are surrounding them, they're ready to draw guns and aim at this alien friend. Off they go, jumping into the sky, and as they cross in silhouette across the moon, that's the iconic moment that opens like a flower.

[33:15] Mark Solomon: So I have one more clip that I would like to play for you. This is from a Charlie Chaplin movie called City Lights. It's the end of the movie. Charlie plays a little tramp who falls in love with a blind flower girl. She sells flowers on the street corner, and he wants, and he's mistaken for a rich millionaire, and he's happy to play along with her error. He makes a grand gesture to promise that he can get her an eye surgery so that she'll be able to see again. And she believes him, so he has to do everything he can to try to raise the money to pay for this operation. Prize fighting, he befriends the millionaire, eventually he breaks the law and has to go to jail in order to get her the money that she needs for the operation.

This is a scene at the end of the movie. What else is there? This is a love scene that's at the end of the movie. It's the end of the movie. It's awesome. They can use the police to direct it, and it's very important that it's a good movie. He's a little bit of a jerk, but that's all right. That's her, of course. See how the action in the background makes him seem more still? He sort of recognizes her. He's a little bit of a jerk, but that's all right.

[36:42] The Drama Book Show! & Broadway Podcast Network: Welcome back to The Drama Book Show! Today, we have a fascinating discussion lined up for you.

[37:12] Mark Solomon: I'm excited to be here and share insights from my book, "Over the Shoulder: A Freelancer’s Guide to Telling Stories and Editing Films."

[37:42] David Rigano: Your experience in Hollywood is impressive. Can you tell us about some of the films you've worked on?

[38:12] Mark Solomon: Sure! I've had the privilege of editing iconic films like "Shrek," "Chicken Run," and "Space Jam." Each project taught me something unique about storytelling.

[38:42] Dylan Glick: What do you think is the most important lesson you've learned from editing these films?

[39:12] Mark Solomon: One key lesson is the importance of suspense. It's crucial to keep the audience engaged and on the edge of their seats.

[39:42] Mark Solomon: Additionally, understanding contrast and cause and effect can significantly enhance the storytelling process.

[40:12] David Rigano: That's fascinating! Can you elaborate on how you apply these concepts in your work?

[40:24] Mark Solomon: Absolutely! For instance, in "Frankenweenie," we used contrast to highlight emotional moments, which helped deepen the audience's connection to the characters.

[40:34] Dylan Glick: It sounds like your book is a treasure trove of practical advice for aspiring filmmakers.

[41:04] Mark Solomon: It really is! I aimed to provide a roadmap that not only covers technical aspects but also delves into the emotional side of storytelling.

[41:34] David Rigano: What inspired you to write this book?

[42:04] Mark Solomon: After over 30 years in the industry, I wanted to share my experiences and insights to help the next generation of filmmakers.

[42:16] Dylan Glick: That's commendable! What do you hope readers take away from your book?

[42:26] Mark Solomon: I hope they gain a better understanding of the editing process and feel empowered to tell their own stories.

[42:38] David Rigano: Are there any specific anecdotes from your career that stand out to you?

[42:48] Mark Solomon: Definitely! One memorable moment was working on "Space Jam." The collaboration between live-action and animation was a unique challenge that pushed our creativity.

[43:00] Dylan Glick: That sounds incredible! How did you navigate the complexities of that project?

[43:10] Mark Solomon: It required a lot of communication and teamwork. We had to ensure that the animated characters felt integrated into the live-action world.

[43:22] David Rigano: Collaboration seems to be a recurring theme in your work.

[43:32] Mark Solomon: Absolutely! Filmmaking is a collaborative art form, and every voice contributes to the final product.

[43:44] Dylan Glick: What advice would you give to someone just starting in film editing?

[43:54] Mark Solomon: My advice would be to watch as many films as possible and analyze the editing choices. Understanding what works and what doesn't is key to developing your own style.

[44:06] David Rigano: That's great advice! Thank you for sharing your insights with us today.

[44:16] Mark Solomon: Thank you for having me! It's been a pleasure discussing these topics with you.

[44:28] Dylan Glick: We appreciate your time and look forward to seeing how your book inspires future filmmakers.

[44:38] Mark Solomon: I hope so too! Happy storytelling, everyone!

[44:50] The Drama Book Show! & Broadway Podcast Network: Thanks for tuning in to The Drama Book Show! Be sure to check out Mark's book and join us next time for more exciting discussions.

[48:16] Mark Solomon: The good ones are all the same and all the bad ones are different in their own way. But in general, the more collaborative the process is, and the more good people working together, and genuinely working together, you get a better result than anyone could come up with on their own. And it's not about ego, it's about the people—everyone's pointing to the movie and not to themselves. And then, there's something to contribute. And you can add something that comes from you, and people have different perspectives, and each one has something unique. And that's what gives it a chance to be good. What would you say—when we start talking about the ones—the processes that are good, and the processes that are not as good—what is a favorite moment—like one of your best moments working on a favorite project?

It was in London. I was working on Chicken Run, which was the first movie that I was the lead editor for. And we were working on a Sunday morning, going to work, after an intense schedule. And we were working on the ending scene of Chicken Run, where the chickens are escaping in a big, made-up crate of an airplane. And I was sitting with Nick Park, one of the directors, and I knew that we were making a really good movie, and that they were putting the final touches on something that I knew that people would see and remember. And that's such a good feeling. The best is when people see what you've done, and can appreciate the work that went into it, and like what you came up with. It's sad, like a movie like Stuntman, when you put your heart and soul into it, and no one goes to see it. Or the movie's bad, and people see it, and they go, to have a good movie, and a good audience for it, is the movie under a lucky star.

[50:12] David Rigano: Do you have any advice for a circumstance when maybe you put your heart and soul into something, and maybe it doesn't quite work out? Because I have experience in the arts, and I've had things happen that got attention, and got success, and other things, that I thought were the greatest thing in the world. And sometimes there's little setbacks like that.

[50:33] Mark Solomon: What I tell myself in those circumstances is, declare victory, and move on. Call it a success. Take what you can from it. Learn what you can from what there was. Find something good to take. Say that's a victory, and move on to the next, and don't look back. Keep going.

[50:54] David Rigano: Off of that, because I come from the world of theater, where if you put on a production of a show, and two people see it, you can try to do the show again in a year. Is there any kind of recourse in film that's similar, that you would say, submit to another festival, or if there's a project that you really believe in, that maybe at first glance doesn't get the attention you feel it deserves?

[51:24] Mark Solomon: Movies get re-released after a couple of years, or it just came out at the wrong time. There were movies that were made ready for the pandemic, that nobody went out to the theaters to see, and they held them and tried them again later. Sometimes that works. Sometimes remaking a movie that didn't have a great audience, but it's hard to raise the money for a movie that doesn't really do well. There's plenty of money to make another Spider-Man. Trying to make something work that didn't the first time, but sometimes the money people don't agree. The pitch for it has to be really persuasive.

[52:03] David Rigano: What was your process in writing the book itself? In looking at all of your experience as a storyteller, as specifically a movie editor, and deciding what you wanted this book to say as it applied to your specific art form?

[52:24] Mark Solomon: I thought about it for a long time, and I started teaching at film schools. I got from Boston and London. Every year, every term, there would be one student who would really spark to what I was talking about. I knew that they would follow and pursue a career as an editor, and I wanted to give them something to help them. When you finish film school, it's hard to see how to navigate the world outside and make your way into business. I wanted to help people have the chops to really know what they were talking about as an editor and not just blow smoke, and to know how to navigate a freelance career, which a lot of people have to do. Actors, writers, directors all have to manage and this is what I learned.

This worked for me, so I thought I would try to share what I learned. When I first started out, I wrote to editors and said, I want to be your apprentice. Let me be your apprentice, and I'll learn from you. I promise when it's my turn, I'll pass on what I've learned to the next generation.

[53:39] David Rigano: This is definitely going to be one that... We get asked a million questions a day, you can just imagine, for recommendations for all sorts of types of books. This is going very high on my list for filmmakers and anyone who wants to create visual storytelling. Do we have any other questions before I get to my final question?

[54:04] Mark Solomon: As I am passing this on to people who are learning, and the future editors, the... I always say to strike the word aspiring from your vocabulary, but the aspiring screenwriters, the rising screenwriters, how can we tell if our... I'm a director, and I try to tell stories. How can we tell if our story is working well, and if it is interesting?

[54:40] Mark Solomon: It's something you can't figure out like an equation. You have to go with your gut, and trust that what you're working on, if it moves you, it'll move other people as well. As an editor, you're like the first reviewer of a production, you're the first audience. And to be able to hold on to that innocent audience perspective, and see something as if for the first time, is really important to be able to identify how you did respond, like where did it go astray, where did it go well, can you build that out from the parts that work well, and shorten or eliminate the parts that don't work, and try to think of it as a process of expanding and contracting based on what you feel good about.

[55:28] David Rigano: Awesome. Thank you so much, Mark, for being here today. Thank you all for coming. And we are back. What an in-depth look at filmmaking and editing. It was interesting because he brought that big screen... Big old TV.

[55:40] Mark Solomon: Big old TV, and it came in earlier in the day too, it wasn't even at the end of the day, it was at the end of the day. And he was like, what's the TV for? And I told him that there was an MMA fight that was happening that day that I wanted to see, and I was closing and couldn't get it covered, so I just brought the TV in so I could watch the MMA fight here at the store. And he's like, wow, the diagram for MMA fighting and musical theater is really small. I'm like, I think it's me.

[56:20] David Rigano: I would assume that he would be like, oh, cool, I'll watch too. He's into wrestling. I just love any time that I can be like, oh, this one conversation I had with my mom, Miranda. There was a day that I was doing some closing up tasks upstairs and he was there, so we just struck up a conversation. I said, what do you got going on tonight? He said, I'm going to Madison Square Garden. And I said, oh, fun, theater or sports? And maybe a week later, a friend of mine sent me a TikTok that was an interview with Lin where he was talking about having been to a wrestling, and I got to respond to my friend, oh, I think that the event that he's talking about was the last time I chatted with him.

[57:06] Mark Solomon: Yeah, no, he's talked about it before, and then there was somebody here a while back that he fanboyed out over. Oh, that's funny. I saw him do it over Noah Reed. It's always interesting to see. We all have the people we fanboy out. I think I've only seen him totally fanboy over shows. I've seen just the full-on theater nerd come out in him when he starts talking about when the Jellicle Ball first opened. He was just so enthusiastic, and you're chatting with him about it, and you're like, this is just the theater kid. It's just the theater kid that we all are. I've never seen him get starstruck over a person.

[57:43] David Rigano: It was funny because the first time I saw it was that time that Noah Reed was doing an interview here when he was in a show, and then I told him and the Broadway World crew that they could leave their stuff in my office, and it would be safe up there because no one else goes up there, and then while we were down here, I didn't see him, but Lin went upstairs, and then sometimes we'll take meetings in the offices, and was taking a meeting in my office, and I went up there and then saw my door closed, and I was like, I didn't close my door, and it's locked, and then one of my co-workers said, oh, Lin's in there, and then Richard Ridge from Broadway World goes, Lin who? I'm like, Lin is in there, and I'm like, man.

So I was texting him, no response, and then so finally I knocked a few times, and then he opened the door and kind of gave me a look like I'm doing a meeting, and then I was like, I'm sorry, they need their things, and then I got up and saw Noah Reed and ripped his headset off, and I was like, Noah Reed, oh my God, and then Noah's like, Lin Manuel, and they were circling each other like when two puppies meet, it's so cute, and it was so exciting, and then so I was like, yeah, sorry, they just need to get their stuff, and then they get all their stuff, and then they leave, and then the door closes, and then I go downstairs to see them out, go back upstairs to get my stuff, and realize it's in that office, and I don't want to interrupt him again, so I just sat outside and waited.

[59:10] Mark Solomon: Also like a puppy dog. I was like, I'll just hang out here and play on my phone until he's done with his meeting, and then I'll get my things.

[59:19] David Rigano: You know who I sometimes fanboy over? Some of my favorite Broadway poster artists. Oh, nice. That's my turn for a segue. We're going to talk about the history behind some of Broadway's most memorable images with a conversation about Broadway poster art 1945-1969 with author Nicholas Van Hoogstraten. Remember to follow our Instagram at Please subscribe to the Drama Bookshop on Eventbrite so that you can be alerted whenever we add new in-person events to our calendar. And know that all of the books we talk about can be found here at the Drama Bookshop. So can we. And we will. See you at the bookshop.