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[0:18] Mark-Eugene Garcia: Hello and welcome to The Drama Book Show.

[0:20] David Rigano: My name's David Rigano.

[0:21] Mark-Eugene Garcia: And today we're talking about The Intimacy Coordinator's's Guidebook: Specialties for Stage and Screen, edited by Brooke M. Haney.

[0:30] David Rigano: And Brooke brought a few of the contributing authors.

[0:35] Mark-Eugene Garcia: Absolutely.

[0:37] David Rigano: Quite a few.

[0:38] Mark-Eugene Garcia: Yeah. And it's so interesting what a new art form intimacy coordination is when you consider how much falls under the umbrella of intimacy coordination.

[0:51] David Rigano: Oh yeah. No, one of the people in the audience was our intimacy coordinator for Goat Blood.

[0:56] Mark-Eugene Garcia: Uh-huh.

[0:57] David Rigano: Who was excellent. He also was a fight coordinator too, but he took care of both on this production.

[1:04] Mark-Eugene Garcia: And I think from the playwright's perspective, going into it, it was like wondering, it was like it was gonna be a restriction.

[1:11] David Rigano: I think you're wondering, and not that they had anything incredibly racy in Goat Blood, but just that idea of is this gonna be like, oh, you can't do that.

[1:18] Mark-Eugene Garcia: But in more was or more of it was a how do we want to do that?

[1:23] David Rigano: This is how you, yeah, and because it was a work in progress, which I think is different from if you were working on a show that's already established, a lot of it made its way into the storytelling where it was like, oh, this is what originally was done, and then or what originally what we wanted, and then listening to the conversations in the room and how we could tell the story, it was like, oh, I like this better.

[1:45] Mark-Eugene Garcia: And this is actually more intimate, but less not even gratuitous, but less uncomfortable.

[1:53] David Rigano: Uh-huh.

[1:54] Mark-Eugene Garcia: Yeah. And it just changed the script in a way for the better.

[1:57] David Rigano: And I think that people tend to think that it's just kissing, or it's just sex scenes.

[2:09] Mark-Eugene Garcia: That either, oh, it's just kissing like people kissed on stage for centuries.

[2:15] David Rigano: Why can't you just kiss?

[2:16] Mark-Eugene Garcia: Or that if you need it, you must be doing like a very gratuitous sex scene.

[2:16] David Rigano: You must be doing something where it's very explicit.

[2:26] Mark-Eugene Garcia: And that's not all that it is.

[2:29] David Rigano: And it's fight choreography. It's everything too, because sometimes when you're learning fight choreography, you are nose to nose with your opponent.

[2:40] Mark-Eugene Garcia: Certainly, if you look at a play like Adam Simkowitz's Marion: The True Tale of Robin Hood, you have two people who have a lot of duels, but they're flirting with each other.

[2:52] David Rigano: Right.

[2:53] Mark-Eugene Garcia: And they're falling in love competitively.

[2:56] David Rigano: And that's intimacy.

[2:57] Mark-Eugene Garcia: Yeah. So there's so many layers.

[3:00] David Rigano: I remember like the very first conversation, Gabriela Rosario was our coordinator, but I also was interested in him as an actor.

[3:08] Mark-Eugene Garcia: And when we were having that conversation, he's I I'm definitely gonna have him as an actor.

[3:13] David Rigano: He goes, I am interested in this job, but I do need to speak to your other actors to make sure that they're comfortable that someone on the acting team is also in this position.

[3:21] Mark-Eugene Garcia: Uh-huh.

[3:21] David Rigano: Yeah. And just even that was something to think about and consider.

[3:25] Mark-Eugene Garcia: And they were, which was great.

[3:27] David Rigano: Yeah. But this is such a new, relatively new art form, like formalized art form, that there's stuff that we don't even think, even as we know this is necessary, and that's why part of why it's necessary, because they know the stuff that we don't know to say, yeah, they're like there is something to the power dynamic if your intimacy coordinator is also an actor versus truly, and it was something that I completely didn't think about, but I'm glad that that worked because it was such a great team, and he was so good at one reading the room, but two watching him work was incredible, watching him check in with the actors, watching him make sure the actors checked in with each other before anything, and again, we didn't have anything racy, but Goat Blood has so much but also the unspoken sexual tension.

[4:22] Mark-Eugene Garcia: Yeah.

[4:22] David Rigano: When I recommend it to people here at the store, I say this is a play about two guys who are not on a date.

[4:29] Mark-Eugene Garcia: Truly, yeah.

[4:30] David Rigano: And who are being attacked by a chupacabra.

[4:32] Mark-Eugene Garcia: And the whole aspect of they're not on a date.

[4:32] David Rigano: They're not on a date.

[4:37] Mark-Eugene Garcia: He's straight.

[4:38] David Rigano: But are they?

[4:40] Mark-Eugene Garcia: Exactly, exactly?

[4:42] David Rigano: And they're fighting, but are you?

[4:42] Mark-Eugene Garcia: And all of that requires your actors to find a level of intimacy even when they're not being physically intimate.

[4:51] Mark-Eugene Garcia: And I could not have done it without Gabriela's essential to the piece and helped me figure out how to tell that story.

[4:58] David Rigano: 100%.

[5:03] David Rigano: Yeah.

[5:03] Mark-Eugene Garcia: Is really just show you just a way to tell the story and be a collaborator on the storytelling.

[5:10] David Rigano: And the same way that you would have someone making sure that there was adequate netting or padding if there were pratfalls or something like that.

[5:23] Mark-Eugene Garcia: Exactly.

[5:24] David Rigano: It's someone who is there to make sure the actors are safe.

[5:27] Mark-Eugene Garcia: Safe and comfortable.

[5:28] David Rigano: And I think that is the big thing because I think as an actor, if you're uncomfortable, it shows.

[5:33] Mark-Eugene Garcia: Yes.

[5:33] David Rigano: I've been in positions where I've been in something and I'm just like, I don't like this.

[5:38] Mark-Eugene Garcia: You're gonna tell when I tense up on stage or in this shot.

[5:42] David Rigano: And having someone who can you can talk to to say, listen, this is making me uncomfortable, and having them figure out ways to like how can what can we do to make it so that we're all on the same page and that you're comfortable and the story is being told, that's just so wonderful because it is that additional form of communication, and it just it makes the project better.

[6:03] Mark-Eugene Garcia: Yeah, I can't imagine since having a show with one.

[6:06] David Rigano: I can't imagine not having a show with one.

[6:09] Mark-Eugene Garcia: And that's one of the questions I ask when I'm acting in something, especially if it requires that is okay.

[6:16] David Rigano: So is there one?

[6:17] Mark-Eugene Garcia: Do you plan on having one?

[6:19] David Rigano: I can recommend one, like that kind of thing, because it's essential now.

[6:24] Mark-Eugene Garcia: Yeah, I'm talking to a theater company about workshopping one of my plays, which is a two-hander, and it's without giving too much away, about two people who are early on in their dating journey together, who are trying to see if there's a way to incorporate kink into the relationship and if and what the deal breakers regarding that are.

[7:00] David Rigano: From it. It's a two-hander, so it's great for two person scenes.

[7:02] Mark-Eugene Garcia: But I said to them really what I would love is a workshop that's three weeks in a room with the director, two actors, and an intimacy coordinator.

[7:13] David Rigano: Yeah.

[7:14] Mark-Eugene Garcia: That's the thing is I got this grant for Unmissed Connections, and that's a show that is it's all scenes of intimacy.

[7:22] David Rigano: Like the it's eight different actors in four different scenes that you keep going back to, and they're two person scenes, but they're all involved in some way of post during or before being intimate, and it's about connecting in places that you like emotionally with people that you shouldn't.

[7:41] Mark-Eugene Garcia: And the first thing I thought of when it was like you've got this grant was like I can hire a really good intimacy coordinator, and I'm so excited for that.

[7:51] David Rigano: My best friend and I are writing a series right now, and there was a scene. It's a lot about sex and in appropriate situations for sex to be and not appropriate situations.

[8:04] Mark-Eugene Garcia: And so we've had a lot of conversations about like how much nudity, if any, we think should be a part of it.

[8:12] David Rigano: And I wrote an action in that said she takes her shirt off and throws it on the bed and walks into the bathroom.

[8:20] Mark-Eugene Garcia: Director, you make sure we don't see anything.

[8:24] David Rigano: Yeah. No, and I think it's that is it's the same safety net for actors is a safety net for me.

[8:28] Mark-Eugene Garcia: Where I'm like, all right, I will write something and we will figure it out.

[8:36] David Rigano: Yes.

[8:36] Mark-Eugene Garcia: And it will not be staged until we have figured it out.

[8:40] David Rigano: But I am not going to the same way you don't write for a producer, where it's like people tell you, like, oh, write this with a producer in mind so you don't write too big, don't write to that.

[8:51] Mark-Eugene Garcia: And they're just like, no, write the show and you'll figure it out.

[8:54] David Rigano: This gives you that ability to do that where I didn't think we as writers had that before, where it became pressure on the actor or pressure on the writer to tell a story a certain way.

[9:03] Mark-Eugene Garcia: It's like, no, we will write the story fully from our head, and then we'll get into a room and we'll bring in a professional who will help us form that and collaborate with the actor and find out what is comfortable for them and together create a scene artistically that will become part of the script.

[9:22] David Rigano: I recently saw Prince Faggot, which was incredible, but also, and I didn't realize until afterwards that a friend of mine did the intimacy coordination for that.

[9:32] Mark-Eugene Garcia: Oh, that's cool.

[9:33] David Rigano: Yeah, Uncle Dave's Fight House, so good.

[9:36] Mark-Eugene Garcia: But I remember thinking in the moment of one huge moment of intimacy in the show.

[9:42] David Rigano: I was like, does it call for this?

[9:44] Mark-Eugene Garcia: Oh my god, this is so much.

[9:46] David Rigano: Like I went from being like, oh my gosh, to uncomfortable to now I'm comfortable, but now I'm wondering, has this gone on too long?

[9:55] Mark-Eugene Garcia: And then the next scene, there is a monologue that makes every single moment of that relevant.

[10:03] David Rigano: And it destroyed me.

[10:04] Mark-Eugene Garcia: Yeah.

[10:05] David Rigano: And it's I don't know if I'm gonna make it over there.

[10:07] Mark-Eugene Garcia: It's closely.

[10:09] David Rigano: But it's another one that like the levels of trust and in that.

[10:12] Mark-Eugene Garcia: But I have the script now.

[10:13] David Rigano: The script is out and I have it, so I will read it if I don't get to see it.

[10:16] Mark-Eugene Garcia: The levels of trust from the cast, the level of writing from the writer, and the level of direction have created this magical scene.

[10:25] David Rigano: And it's just what they can do is truly make your shows better.

[10:29] Mark-Eugene Garcia: I saw a play off Broadway, I think it was called Burn.

[10:34] David Rigano: I remember hearing about Burn.

[10:35] Mark-Eugene Garcia: And I and that this was in like 2010, something like that, maybe 2011.

[10:43] David Rigano: This was before we were talking about intimacy coordination as an art form as a job.

[10:51] Mark-Eugene Garcia: I feel like you told me about this show.

[10:53] David Rigano: And it was wonderful.

[10:55] Mark-Eugene Garcia: Right.

[10:56] David Rigano: Like the show was fantastic, and I can only imagine that the director was incredibly sensitive about how they put it together.

[11:08] Mark-Eugene Garcia: But we saw everyone's everything.

[11:14] David Rigano: Yeah.

[11:15] Mark-Eugene Garcia: And we saw people doing all sorts of acts on stage.

[11:23] David Rigano: None of it was real.

[11:25] Mark-Eugene Garcia: It was all simulated, but it was very explicit.

[11:32] David Rigano: And it was incredibly well done, but I cannot help but think about what must that process have been like.

[12:05] Mark-Eugene Garcia: It wasn't a thing, and we all as creators had to take that on ourselves with what knowledge there was and also wasn't.

[12:12] David Rigano: But in this case, we have the knowledge, and we have the experts delve.

[12:19] Mark-Eugene Garcia: Yeah.

[12:20] David Rigano: Let's hear a little bit about the book.

[12:22] Mark-Eugene Garcia: Brooke, can you start off just by telling us what your inspiration for the book was and why you asked our wonderful guests to join you in writing for it?

[12:34] Brooke M. Haney: Yeah, totally.

[12:38] Brooke M. Haney: I can also hold your water at any point that you would like.

[12:41] Mark-Eugene Garcia: Oh, I didn't know.

[12:42] Brooke M. Haney: Thanks to you all for being here. It's really awesome to see all your faces.

[12:46] Brooke M. Haney: So I can see your face too.

[12:49] Brooke M. Haney: My inspiration for writing it was that I wanted to read it.

[12:52] Brooke M. Haney: I felt that there were some really great books out there that talk about some of the beginning foundational ideas behind intimacy, but not yet anything that took a more advanced look at if an intimacy coordinator wanted to go into further study and specialize in something.

[13:12] Brooke M. Haney: And I was finding in my own experiences that if I met with a director, they were just like, What do you do?

[13:18] Brooke M. Haney: And they thought that any intimacy director or coordinator could do any job.

[13:23] Brooke M. Haney: And for example, Cha is a fight director and an intimacy director, but I'm not a fight choreographer, and so Cha is very qualified for some things that I'm not qualified for.

[13:34] Brooke M. Haney: And so I thought we need to start having that conversation.

[13:38] Brooke M. Haney: And I thought the best way to do it would be to invite people who I super respect and think are amazing to write on their individual specialties.

[13:47] Brooke M. Haney: So Cha and I go way back and we had met doing a production where I was an intimacy director, and Cha was the fight director and one of the leads in the show, and we collaborated and became very dear friends, and I think that Cha has a really incredible mind.

[14:02] Brooke M. Haney: And so Cha was one of the very first people I asked to write for the book.

[14:06] Brooke M. Haney: And Leo and I go back to a film that we worked on together where I really loved a lot of things about Leo, but particularly the way that they looked at choreography was a little different than I did.

[14:19] Brooke M. Haney: So it always felt like I could turn to them for an idea or a second look at a scene.

[14:26] Brooke M. Haney: We really were able to compliment each other.

[14:28] Brooke M. Haney: And so when we were looking at writing the queer chapter, I knew I wanted to write part of it, but I also knew that the queer experience is so vast that I wasn't the voice for all of it.

[14:38] Brooke M. Haney: And so Leo was someone that I really respected in that way, and so I wanted him to write part of it.

[14:45] Brooke M. Haney: Awesome.

[14:46] Brooke M. Haney: And yeah, it's there are still very few books on intimacy direction, intimacy coordinating.

[14:55] David Rigano: I mentioned to you upstairs that I've been working here at John Bookshop for a little over two years. And I think as recently as maybe a year ago, maybe a year and a half ago, I would have people come and say, hi, I'm looking for books on intimacy. And we all go, I don't know that there are any. And I remember at one time, like a bunch of us looking and just googling what's out there because we had nothing, and be like, oh, it looks like there's this one book. So we should probably get that one book and have it. And but also partly because, and I'm sure that this will be covered in your next book, which I can't wait to hear about. This is a relatively new field, officially speaking. Can you speak a little bit about that?

I know that's the second book, and we all gotta buy the second book if we want to find that's a bit. But can you speak a little bit about the what the history of this job as an official capacity has been like? And Chan, Leo, if you want to chime in with your experiences from the That's such a huge question.

[16:03] Brooke M. Haney: What I will say is the first book on the subject was A Best Practice Guide to Sex and Storytelling by John Bucher. And I don't think very many people knew about that book right away. I don't think it got a lot of traction in the press or anything like that. But then the second book, as far as I know, was Staging Sex by Chelsea Pace, which took off. Chelsea Pace is a good friend of mine. She wrote the foreword for this book. And part of why I wrote this book was to be a follow-up to that book. And so if you need a second book, I super recommend it. But yeah, we do sell that here. And I believe it's on sale tonight if you would like a thought of the butt as far as I know in 2006, Tonya Cena decided, like, why don't we choreograph sex?

And decided to write a thesis on the choreographing of sex. And I don't remember the title of it off the top of my head, but it's very easy to Google. And so Tonya wrote this thesis on choreographing sex and started working on it. And then there were other people that had similar ideas in other places in the world and the country. And some time passed, and then shortly before the Me Too movement, there were people like Alicia Rhodus and Rachel Flesher, who were working in stunts in TV and film, and then working at different colleges. And some their students were like, I know you work on stunts, but I have to do this simulated sex scene. Could you help with that? And they were like, Yeah, let's do it like we do a stunt.

And so they started working, and then the Me Too movement happened, and producers were like, Oh, maybe we should pay someone to do this so that all of this stuff doesn't continue happening. And that was really the thing that I think launched the marketability of the industry. And I feel like that's the shortest thought. Do you have other thoughts on theater or anything?

[18:06] Cha Ramos: No, I'll just add that it feels both new and old in the sense that the first time the words intimacy choreographer were on a page where Tony Zena's basic. But wardrobe supervisors, actors, directors have been doing this with just like trying to take care of one another and try to tell better stories through physicality. And also the first intimacy director on Broadway was Claire Warden with Frankie and Johnny in the Claire de Loon, which was so recent. Literally days ago, SAGAFTRA now is welcoming intimacy coordinators, and intimacy coordinators will be represented by SAGAFTRA two days ago. So it's it is both young and very old. Yeah, and the ideas are old, right? Consent, intimacy coordinators can come up with that idea.

Choreography, we didn't come up with that idea. We took ideas from other communities and other practitioners and put it into a job. And I think so much of it has to do with recognizing that this work needs to be more sustainable. Because not all of the work we do is about here is a sex scene. Let's make the bodies go together safely and within boundaries. It's also about all the many different boundaries that we hold and all the many different considerations that come into play when we no unintended, but expose ourselves on stage and all the different ways that happens. I know I got started in this field because I was working on some really edgy device theater. And I reached a point where I was like, this is no longer sustainable for me as a performer, and I just became the squeaky wheel of my community that was just like, hey, can we talk some more about this before we do it?

And after a couple years of like just being that person, I like it came up in my just Google recommended this is a job that exists in America. Um yeah, just to echo that this has been done by a lot of different people in a lot of different ways. And even though we are seeing like specific methodologies concretized today, I think it takes all approaches, and it takes all kinds, and it takes everyone figuring out what works for their context and their community to really be affected at this work.

[20:24] Leo Mock: Yeah. Also, do either even know how to pronounce Yabu's last name.

[20:29] Cha Ramos: No.

[20:31] Leo Mock: I think.

[20:31] Cha Ramos: Okay, I've never tried and I can't picture it in my head. But Yehuda was in 2008, was working on a play, choreographing sex in New York, and was called a sex choreographer. I think the first person working in TV and film was someone who called was called a sex stylist. And then there was also a sex choreographer. So intimacy coordinator is also just a new title, the one that stuck.

[20:59] Brooke M. Haney: Uh-huh. I'd like to have a stylist come home. Make sure my hair looks right before.

[21:09] David Rigano: That's wild. And so, one of the things that I think is so fantastic about this book, and this has come up in little ways that that all of you said is that it speaks to not just different experiences, but different demographic experiences. And how that how different people come at intimacy scenes both from personal experiences and within the within genres and within tropes that exists. So Brooke, can you talk a little bit about how you wanted to break down with those groups and how you found authors to contribute and to do interviews?

[21:56] Brooke M. Haney: Sure. So the book is broken down into a few parts. And the first part is talking about scope of practice, because that felt important to define. Because in the early days, there are a lot of people who are intimacy professionals that are also talented at other things. For example, Leo is a gender consultant. But not every intimacy coordinator is or professional is qualified to do gender consulting. But because all of a sudden there was a budget line for a thing that people thought of maybe as taking care of people, sometimes they would uh be like maybe our intimacy coordinator can deal with the gender stuff. Right. Or maybe the mental health stuff. So the first part of the book is about scope of practice.

And we have someone writing on what it means to be a cultural consultant, what it somebody else writing on, I should say it's people's names. Shells Morgan wrote on what it means to be a cultural consultant. We might have called it something different. And Amanda, you got it right here. Yeah, we do. Amanda Last's name. Edwards, yeah, Amanda Edwards. Thank you, Les. Amanda Edwards wrote on mental health coordination. And some various other things, and that's where Chubb's chapter takes place, which is on violence and intimacy, because I thought that was really important because so many people came out of the fight director and the stunt coordinator movement. It was important to talk about what are the differences.

And then that felt the same way. Like for the other chapters, I just wanted someone who either had galvanizing ideas or who I just respected their work. And I will tell you, I don't agree with everything in the book. Some people have thoughts that are different than how I would approach it. But what I wanted were people that had ideas and that were forging ground.

[23:50] Chelsea Hayes: And our special guest is here. Speaking of which, this is Chelsea Hayes.

[23:55] Brooke M. Haney: Hi hi.

[23:56] Chelsea Hayes: We match.

[24:01] Brooke M. Haney: I don't know. I just want to make Chelsea.

[24:03] Chelsea Hayes: Chelsea Case, who we earlier said wrote staging sex, is here from Set. Chelsea and I work on a show together, and I couldn't do it today because of this. And Chelsea did it and came after. While she gets settled, do you want to talk about why you asked, you decided to make it a conversation in that chapter?

[24:21] Chelsea Hayes: Yeah. If you've read the book or if you were going to read the book, you'll notice the chapter on the intersection and delineation of slash between fight and intimacy direction. But that is not just a chapter written by me of my ideas. And it's okay. So the reason why I decided, because Brooke reached out to me and they were like, I want you to write on this thing, and I was like, This is the thing I love in the world, and I want to write about it. And I have a thousand and one ideas. I could write a whole book about intimacy and violence and intimate violence and violent intimacy and all the things. I probably will someday. It's probably gonna happen. But when Brooke pitched this book, they very specifically were like, what I am doing is bring together a bunch of voices in this industry because I don't want it to just be my voice.

I want it to be experts in what they do and people with big ideas. And so I was like, if that's the ethos of this book, then it simply would not be fair because I know so many incredible people, some who are sitting here today who work at the intersections of violence and intimacy, that I do not feel like this chapter should just come from my voice. I actually think it should be a conversation. And so the people that I ended up reaching out to were just three of the many people who I admire doing work at this intersection, but it felt like it was just within the ethos of this book to be like, this is a conversation. And similarly, like the way that I do my job is different from the way that those three other people do.

Rachel Flesher, Yuai Lynn, and Siavon Richardson were the three who came in and chatted with me. And I'm so proud of the chapter because it is just four of many perspectives, but at least it gives you an insight into how many of us are out there doing this.

[26:09] Brooke M. Haney: Love that you're bringing up the and it's come up again, it's one of these things that keeps circling around it. The fact that intimacy is not just staging sex, it's not just it's all of these different things that are involved with how we move our bodies around in very close proximity to each other on stage. And I told you a story of I directed a show and I knew that I had necks that needed to be snapped. And I called someone who is a flight choreographer and an intimacy choreographer, and I asked her about how to do the neck snapping. And then when I was in rehearsal, and I had a character convulsing because she was possessed because it was a Halloween play, who needed to be dragged out of bed to get to the hospital, the actors suddenly went, okay, so well, where are we allowed to put our hands?

What are we allowed to do? And I had this moment of checking myself because it hadn't even occurred to me that was intimacy. And in that instant, I went, oh I called my friend to do fight consultation on this play, and I didn't think to say, and what's the safest way to grab someone up and pull them out of a bed? So it is there's so much more when it comes to how we're putting our hands on other people's bodies.

[27:37] Brooke M. Haney: And I'm going through because you've answered some of the questions on these. It's very so to that end, and Brooke, you mentioned this. Why is it important to have a specialty? We we touched on why you can't expect every intimacy coordinator to to have the full scope, but can you talk about each of you why you feel that it's important to have a specialty in within your specialty of intimacy coordinating?

[28:14] Cha Ramos: Shall I start? I'm holding the mic. Like, I'm never giving this up. No, I'm just kidding. No, that so I think what's so absolutely delightful and delicious and wonderful about how intimacy has progressed as a profession, as a philosophy, is that it has allowed for that. So I do think that in the early days of intimacy direction, all of us were just trying to get best practices into the room, right? All of us were just trying to like be better humans around whatever the actor directors felt was the intimacy in the show. And so it started off very much sex acts, was the sort of thing that I was hired for, and then progressed to scenes of bathing someone, scenes of holding someone who's unconscious, mixing violence and intimacy in just like a very sort of raucous throwing people on the bed fun and sexy, right?

Whatever that is. But I think what has been beautiful is that as we progress, as more people have become a part of this profession, is that we can, like every other field in theater and film, say I'm not just I don't just need any intimacy director or any intimacy coordinator. I want the one who knows how to tell this story the best. I want the one who has this skill set and these intersections of experience because we do that with direction all the time, right? It's like a playwright is I want the director who can do my play the best.

[29:46] Brooke M. Haney: And like maybe any director can do any play. The question. I don't know. As a director, I'm gonna go. I'm like, probably no, but like we're out of place now in this profession where you can be picky about choosing the creative professional who is gonna best support the work and best support the actors and the whole company or the whole crew or whoever it is to tell that story. And so that's what I feel excited about.

[30:13] Brooke M. Haney: Yeah, I think I would start by saying I don't know that it's important for an intimacy coordinator to have a specialty. I think actually what's great is if you train, there are a lot of moments of intimacy that are basic. This play has a kiss. Great. You might want to bring on an intimacy director for that, and someone who's just finished their training would possibly be very qualified for that. However, most people are very curious and want to continue learning, or maybe you have something in you that you're really passionate about. So for me, when I talked to my agent, I said I want at least 65% of the projects that I do to be queer projects, queer stories, because that really matters to me.

That's what I those are the stories I want to tell. It's what I've done so much research about, it's one of my specialties, and I do think I am better at telling that story than someone else who hasn't studied it. And I don't just mean someone who's not queer. I think you can be queer and not have studied the storytelling of queer intimacy. I think it needs to go further into study, and yeah, I think otherwise, I think what Shaw said, like it makes for great compelling storytelling when you have someone who's really thinking about all the nuances.

[31:33] Brooke M. Haney: I think having specialties also allows us to have boundaries. Yeah, we get to say what we don't want to work on, and I think there often tends to be a conflation of you lift this, so you're gonna be really good at working on it. And I think there are plenty of things that I have lived that I'm like, I don't want to help tell that story. Somebody else is gonna be really good at telling that story. Please let me get you their name. Let me give you five people who I'm gonna recommend. And I think that's such a beautiful part of this. Is this can be such an isolated job at times, and those moments where I get to say, that's the wrong job for me, but here are the people who I would love to get to you for whom this will be a really right job.

[32:15] Cha Ramos: I just think that those are some of the best. Totally possible. Completely agree with all of that. Hi. I think that there's specialization within the stories that we tell, and I also think there is specialization within the kinds of environments that we're excited about being in. And right like queer story in a college production is gonna be better suited for one agency professional, whereas a queer story on a big old movie set might be a very different, might be a very different person that's the right person for that.

[32:53] Cha Ramos: But there's also going back to what Leah said about boundaries, there's space for a person to say, Oh, that's a really combatitive environment to collaborate in. These are people who are like, like, yes, we need an intimacy professional. Not everybody's excited about going in in that room. I'm like, smile at it or something. Right? And for other folks, for me, that's part of the fun. That's part of the challenge, that's for part of what makes it exciting. I would I love the show that I just came off of. Right. It's one of those ones that's just an absolute joy. And that's always a real treat.

[33:33] Cha Ramos: But I think it's important for us to be able to have boundaries not only on the kind of work that we're taking on in terms of the story, but also the kinds of environments we're down to be in, the kinds of rooms we're right to be in. I've had the privilege of being in a lot of rooms that I am not the obvious choice for, and I'm really excited that as our community has grown, I have been able to say more and more. Hey, oh, I am a white lady. Am I the person that you want for this moment? Or I am physically abled. Am I the right person for this? Can I recommend? And I think we can have specialties about the kinds of rooms we're in also. It doesn't mean it's the only room that we can be in. It doesn't mean that we can't support other rooms. It's not like the only person who can tell this story is the person who hasn't lived, or who is a part of that community, a part of that identity group.

[34:24] Cha Ramos: And I love that there's so much more space now to be able to sit back and say, Oh, I don't either want to be in that room, or I don't think I should meet in that room, or oh gosh, that's the room for me. And I've even done that as a director. I've gone into an interview and gone, you shouldn't hire me. Don't hire me, you should hire someone else. But also, hi Chelsea, nice to meet you.

[34:50] Chelsea Hayes: Hi, hi Chelsea. So nice to meet you. I'd like to talk to you since you've got the mic now. You've mentioned you are the author of Staging Sex. And I wanted to ask what excited you about contributing to this book, and how does your work on this interact with your work on your previous book?

[35:11] Chelsea Hayes: I was sitting in Brooklyn Katie's living room when Brooke started talking about this idea that was maybe uh like a wit series or maybe blogs, I think was the part, or like a podcast. There were all like a lot of items on the table, and as Burke talked about it more and more, I was like, this is something I think it might be a book, right? Or at least if you uh because I thought when I was writing staging sex the most, I knew all this stuff that I wanted to write about, and the thing that actually helped me form it into a thing that was a book, or two things, one of them was silly, a cookbook. I was like, oh, that's it, and I figured it out. I was already calling things the ingredients at that point, and I was like, oh, but the format cookbook. Anyway, but the second thing was actually going through and filling out a book proposal.

[36:03] Chelsea Hayes: So as you start writing that into the same parents, tell me more. That format identifying who do I want to be talking to? What do I want to be talking about? Who do I imagine the audience is for this? Who am I actually trying to talk to? Who am I trying to reach? And the audiences for our books are very different. And I was writing four years ago that thing, staging sex that thing. Staging sex came out four years ago. And that was a very different time in our field and in our industry. That was a very different time. March 2020 was a really cool time to have a book about stacking people on top of each other. Really awesome time.

[36:43] Chelsea Hayes: Um I think that I think that staging sex was a primer. Henry Byle, who wrote the foreword for my book. I was writing at his kitchen table one day. I was down in Kansas doing a little mini residency down there, and I was so stressed. And Henry writes a book, what feels like every six months. And I was like, and he looked at me and he said, it just needs to get done. There's nothing out there. It just needs to get done. And that helped me narrow the focus and say, I'm never going to be able to say everything I want to say. By the time the book's a book comes out, there will be things I wish I would have said differently, things I wish I would have included, things that I wish it would have changed. That's why there's a second edition. Don't hold your breath. But like you get to do another edition, you get to do another version.

[37:33] Chelsea Hayes: And so staging sex was meant to lay the foundation for people that had not considered that this was a thing we should be paying attention to. Or if they had considered it to give them some tools so they weren't just by themselves. I used the metaphor in the foreword of there being a little bit of a light, right? We're not just stumbling around in the dark anymore. And a lot of staging sex also, the whole introduction of staging sex is arguing for why you should maybe give this a chance. Walking into rooms and saying, okay, yeah, I totally understand why you don't want help with this. Have you considered that maybe you couldn't want help with this, right? And like I totally, so much of it was about like, I totally see where you're coming from. I was making the counter-argument for why we should even consider consent-based practices.

[38:31] Chelsea Hayes: The bar has moved so far, and that's regional, right? Like it's regional, it's community-specific. I it's much less frequent now that I encounter somebody who's oh, I've never heard of intimacy before. I get more, oh, I've heard of that, what is it? But that's a huge shift from where we were four years ago, 10 years ago, 15 years ago, in terms of thinking about this work. So I see Brook book as a it's not an evolution, it's like recognizing a new landscape that we're in. We were in a very different landscape, four, five, six, twelve, whenever I started writing it years ago. And I think that staging book, staging sex, I think is a useful useful book. But I don't think it's the most useful thing for a lot of folks now.

They have that basic training, they have that basic understanding, right? Or having a different conversation, except to keep moving the conversation forward, but I think that talking about the profession is it wasn't really something that existed at that point.

[39:38] Chelsea Hayes: I give one paragraph to be like, here's what an intimacy coordinator is, right? And there wasn't really any further discussion of that because that wasn't the discussion that I needed to have.

[39:50] Brooke M. Haney: Can I answer?

[39:51] Chelsea Hayes: Yes, absolutely. Um at this point, I do want to open it up to all assembled as well. If you have any questions, both about the writing process and about this art form of intimacy coordinating. Does anybody here have any questions for our panel?

[40:13] Cha Ramos: You don't have to right now. I have more. For somebody who has taken classes and done that level of work, what's the best way to get your foot in the door and actually get jobs?

[40:26] Brooke M. Haney: Looking at you. I have a big opinion on this. I think it's really important that you tell people what you're doing, which is terrifying potentially, right? But letting people know, hey, I'm interested in doing this work. I've started to do this work. I've been training in doing this work. There's so much conversation. I don't know if this has been a part of the conversation tonight, around like qualification and training and certification. And there's a lot of fear that people have about saying, I am doing this work. Because there's this fear that somebody's gonna pop out and be like, you really? How dare you? I think it's important to let your let people know, and not just directors and artistic directors and the unit production managers you have on speed dial, but tell your actor friends, tell your writer friends.

[41:14] Brooke M. Haney: So much of the work that I still get now is because there is an actor that has maybe never been worked with me in this capacity, who I met on a summer stock job, and I was still acting a bajillion years ago. I haven't had hair, right? Like a long time ago, and they're like, hey, I know you do this thing. Do you want to come work on this project with me? So much of the work comes because an actor says, Hey, I want an intimacy for hair, and do you know Lioma? And that's how that conversation gets started. So that's recognition why does it tell people?

[41:49] Brooke M. Haney: And then the second thing is that I think it's really important for us to have a visual or like a presence in the world and take up space, not just as artists or as people, I think because our field is so new, there is, I won't call it a misconception. There's a vibe that a lot of people picked up intimacy, right? They like added it as like a specialty. And there is concern, figure, maybe even, from people who are hiring us because they don't fully understand what we do a lot of the time, that if we are all of the jacks of all of the trades, that we might not actually know what we're doing in this one.

[42:36] Brooke M. Haney: And I said this off the cuff one time, and now I think it's funny, so I'll say it here. You absolutely contain multitudes, but when it comes to putting yourself out there as an intimacy professional, you have to pick a tune. Right? I think it's I think it's confusing. It is funny, right? It's great. We love we love the work that you hear. We're all very big on that.

[42:59] Brooke M. Haney: I think that, yeah, so I think it's really helpful to have a separate website, to have a separate resume, to have a sport Instagram. Like I want Instagram for everything, but I'm one thing, at least professionally. I actually took fight choreographer out of my Instagram bio for a long time because it was like confusing people. Just I finally put it back in. I think that you have to, and not I'm not talking about like with your friends being like, forget I've ever acted. But like in terms of how you present yourself in the world, have a presence, a website, Instagram, whatever. It doesn't need to be fancy, and dirty secret of a lot of the intimacy websites still is it's not photography. You don't need to have great production photos to have a website. Don't claim it's your work. If you're like, I don't have any pictures, find a picture of people holding hands. You can figure it out.

[43:50] Brooke M. Haney: But I think get out there, be easy to get a hold of. Producers are not patient creatures. I'm pretty sure it is. It'd be easy to get a hold of because they're trying to solve a problem. Be a problem of or be a public solver that's easy to get a hold of. And yeah, let people know you're doing this and have a way of people finding you doing it.

[44:13] Brooke M. Haney: I have one more thing, which would be meet other intimacy coordinators or directors. And don't just meet them. Don't just say, I want to meet Chelsea because Chelsea wrote staging sex, can I pick your brain? Just meet people and learn about what makes them tick. Share what makes you tick, because part of why I wrote this book and the second one was to meet people so that I could say, ooh, if I'm gonna recommend someone for a show that blank, then I know so and so.

[44:43] Cha Ramos: I hung out with Krista Marie Jackson two days ago. We knew each other, but we hadn't spent a lot of time together. She's an intimacy coordinator and an aerialist. Exceptional. So if someone came to me and was like, do you want to do some aerial intimacy? I would say, yes, I do, but I'm not your person. It's because if you can be someone that helps someone, even if you're saying to a producer, I don't think it's me, let me tell you who it is, then they know that you know what you're great at. And I really believe people like to be around people that help. So connecting people, I think it's great. And also we give each other work all the time. Yeah, I've gotten so much work because I know Chelsea, and it's just true.

Chelsea gets the phone call, and then Chelsea calls me. And I really love her for it. I had one little thing on that. One of the reasons why Brooke and I are our dear friends, but we were at one point just professional acquaintances. We thought we were I thought you were cool. I don't want to say it's usual. But another jumpsuits. I know. Where are we from? At the Drama Book Shop. I put this on this morning, and I went, what are the chances? Hi. Are you going to jump? This is not the only situation in which we would have matched. We have also matched on occasion, and I'm sure we wouldn't have to be a good one. We will find the time. But I think that one of the things that was so helpful with Brooke Reach when Brooke was talking to me about the kinds of projects they were looking for, is Brooke wasn't just, hey, I'm you weren't like, I want to just pick your brain.

You were like, hey, if you get asks for stories of queer joy, I'd love to be a part of it. Fem for femme queer joy. Yeah, that's the kind of storytelling I want to do. And having that specific ask put Brooke in a different part of my brain than the just hey, can I assist you? And the first show Chelsea ever gave me was on June 1st, the first day of pride. And it was a lesbian sex similar simulated sex scene in Harlem. So yeah, it worked out. I will also say though, the whole story of that, and I'm sure Chelsea was like, I don't know if I should share this, was Chelsea was looking for a babysitter, and I was like, I'll babysit for you if someday you'll let me shadow you on a queer femme for femme.

I completely forgot about it. But that goes with what I did be helpful to someone, right? I would love to spend time with Dodd. I always need a babysitter. And Chelsea did say that's not necessarily how this agreement's gonna work out. I forgot it all.

[47:49] Chelsea Hayes: Do we have any other questions? Yeah, it's so funny I'm here. Like just last night, I finished my online ITC accelerated program. Awesome! So when I saw this from on Facebook, there's a group intimacy coordinator and director. And I said I'm part of the group. And then when I saw this, and I'm like, oh my god, sure. I'm like, because I'm remembering, I'm like, I watch the videos of the instructional videos, and like, oh my god, I gotta take a picture there. But anyway, so yeah, so I'm also like a side actor, and happen to have been standing in poker face, and then I looked at the sides and I'm like, ah, and I'm I read I'm reading like, oh, this scene calls for intimate sports. I recognize already just by that the side, and I'm like, oh okay, woman to woman thing, okay.

And then I'm in my mind, and I see like more oh intimacy coordinator is gonna be a set. Then I'm like, I'm wondering who it's gonna be. Then I'm looking and then suddenly in walks in Alicia Rodis. And I'm like, oh my god. I call her and she's like, how'd you know me? And I go, oh, I'm gonna I'm in your class or whatever. And so she's oh my god, I remember you because I'm always I try my best to be pretty much in the online Zoom stuff. And although it was a closed set and we weren't privy to the actual to be there, I would have loved to be a fly on the wall for her when she choreographed that whole scene. But she did acknowledge us as stand-in, and she did come to us, and when she realized we were standing, I are you comfortable when you are going to be like standing for them.

So I really appreciate it. But anyway, my question is because yeah, I would love to babysit. I'm the type, I tell everybody what I do, why I'm everywhere on set. I tell I promote whatever. Now it's on my Facebook, Instagram, TikTok that yeah, I got the certificate there. Would any of you be open to yeah, shadowing, being like being mentored like anywhere, anytime, because I would love to just totally just get my foot in and just be so bold about it. And as far as who I am, not only I'm an age, I'm Filipino, and for me, what I've seen in the way we do our stuff back home is such I'm like, man, they do need one. And then I'm also like to be open really about it. I would also like to focus on children because I love to make sure I want to be an advocate for them, and then also finally I'm all I also look for faith-based stories as well, besides all graph because there's we're all in this together, so anyway. Yeah, so basically, what my thing is I would love to find out if any of you would do shadow assistant mentoring or anything as out of this whole thing.

[50:28] Brooke M. Haney: I think what you just said is super helpful. You clarify who you are, what you have to offer. I know that when I don't generally learn on a shadow, I think everyone should be paid. Right. I think that anyone coming on to a project has something to offer. But that's what you just shared. You shared what you have to offer. So, for example, I was interviewing someone in the Philippines for this next book, and I learned that in Tagalog there's not a word for consent. No, and so I would be interested in potentially working with you on a project where I knew people were struggling to understand consent. Yeah. Because you might be particularly good at describing it in a different way. Because you've maybe had to do that before.

So I think being clear about what you have to offer is so important because I think we all get requests fairly regularly to shadow us. I think it's the hardest thing. And it when theaters and TV and film was shut down during COVID, it's been much harder to get people on set with you. I've had a nearly impossible time. I know you finally just got someone on. Yeah. But it's hard. So I think being clear about what you have to offer and constantly putting yourself out there helps.

[51:36] Cha Ramos: Yeah. And I'll also offer that what by interest is it Missy? Yeah. Miss Maramara. Look up Missy Maramara. So Missy is a Philippina incredible intimacy professional. Oh working in the Philippines currently. But that's the other thing is do what you just did, but don't just do it here. Oh, Maro Mar. But you don't need maybe none of the four of us might be able to bring you into a space where maybe we will have that product that we call you, but maybe someone else sitting here does. So anywhere that you can talk about the art you make, talk about the art you make. Because even if I'm now like go connect with Missy, because Missy's dope. Because we might know people that you can talk to and who are doing the thing that will make you come alive, that will make you do your best version of this work. That's all I want. I was like, was it Missy? I mean I think that's great. Okay, post about being here tonight too.

[52:31] Brooke M. Haney: Oh, I'm a Leo Celsius. What do you think of Leo? Yes. We're all connected. It's a small community. And if I can ask to all assembled, who is here because you are an intimacy coordinator or you're interested in being an intimacy coordinator? Great. What's your name?

[52:47] Hilary Dare: Hilary Dare.

[52:49] Angelica Gomez: Angelica Gomez.

[52:52] Gabrielle Sadio: Gabrielle Sadio.

[52:57] Rosal Fadio: Rosal Fadio.

[52:58] Sharon Leeroff: Sharon Leeroff.

[53:00] Unknown speaker: Of course.

[53:01] Unknown speaker: Litwinoff.

[53:02] Unknown speaker: Oh, okay.

[53:02] Alice Camarada: Alice Camarada.

[53:05] Unknown speaker: Is that everybody? Who's who is here because you are a writer or director, and you think that you may have to work with intimacy coordination?

[53:16] Unknown speaker: Oh. Awesome, yes. Incredible.

[53:22] Brooke M. Haney: Because you are an actor and you appreciate understanding how intimacy coordination works when you are on a set.

[53:30] Unknown speaker: Yeah, an actor.

[53:32] Cha Ramos: Yeah. This is this. I just feel like I was like, oh, we should know what so one of the great things that I really love about the way that you structured this book is that at the beginning of each section, you have specific directives to if you're an intimacy coordinator, this is what you're going to get out of this chapter. If you are a director or a producer who's looking to hire an intimacy coordinator, this is what you're going to get out of this portion of the book. And if you're an actor who has to work in intimacy scenes, this is what you're going to get. And it tells you how to look at the book, not just as a how to, but it's such a great resource for really understanding what happens no matter who you are in the room when you walk into the room.

[54:22] Brooke M. Haney: Yeah. Another thing to consider, and because we have a bunch of agency professionals here today, right? Not just the four of us sitting up here, is mentors are awesome and we're super helpful. And also, this is a super new field. We are making it up as you go along. We are coming up with the best practices still. Thank goodness. Which means that the person sitting next to you in front of you behind you is probably also coming up with the best practices for the situations they are working in. I think it's important to have mentors and people with more experience that you can go to with questions, but I think it's also really important to have peers, to have network. Those are the people you share work with.

Those are the people who refer you. Those are the people who you can be on set and text them and say, hello, can I send you a chaotic going voice note? And they will come on. And when we are the parts of one, right? In this work that can be really lonely, I think it's important to have like literally a group of people in your group text or in your pocket who you can reach out to and say, hi, something's happening.

[55:43] Cha Ramos: And that's not always going to be Oh, it's time for me to take my meds.

[55:56] Brooke M. Haney: Yeah, but do a hard thing, whether it's like this evening or over the next couple of days, you have homework. I won't be checking it. You have homework. Find, reach out to another intimacy professional, not just somebody that you're taking classes from or that you're training with or whose work you admire. Reach out to somebody you like you like their vibe and say, hey, would you be open to maybe like getting coffee or hopping on a Zoom or setting up a little bit of a text study? So that do a practice group training, but without paying for it. You're learning from each other. I think like learning from each other is how this field came to be. If you could start chatting with people, get somebody's Instagram and start being in conversation with the people you are in this work with and not just the people who are most saying the front, front as well.

[57:10] Cha Ramos: Visible visible almost here. Not just the most visible people.

[57:12] Brooke M. Haney: Yeah, not just the most visible people. I'd like to put a question out here for all assembled, because I know that this is a position that I've been in as a director. I believe that we have people here who've been in this position, I'm sure, in our podcast audience. We have people who want to do theater that is maybe pushing some boundaries, saying some things, experimenting, and maybe don't have the resources or the money to officially bring an intimacy coordinator on board. What can you offer best practices for directors who want to do right by their actors in intimate scenes when the production maybe does not have the resources for that?

[58:06] Brooke M. Haney: I've sometimes describe my job as helping actors take the risks they want to take. Because a lot of this work is not like, I'm gonna come in and make sure everybody's safe and nothing goes wrong and everything's gonna be great, but that we are all aware of the risks and that we are negotiating risks together. I know a lot of actors, a lot of directors, a lot of playwrights who want to do work that is risky, and I say that word meaning it in a lot of different ways. Either it's risky because it's gonna piss a lot of people off, or it's gonna make a lot of people feel uncomfortable in their skin, or it's going to do any number of things. Our job is never to moralize that choice or decide what risk is quote unquote good risk or bad risk, because art's freaking subjective.

But our job is often to come in and just lay out alright, what are the risks here? And sometimes that say, hey, you as an actor are gonna be saying some inflammatory or obscene or offensive things on stage? What do you need to feel like a whole person who can return to yourself after you do that? What do you need to walk out of those stage doors at the end of the night and feel good and feel safe once you leave the theater? Sometimes it is just like making sure that everybody knows what they're getting into.

[59:27] Brooke M. Haney: And anybody can have those conversations. That can be something that happens day one, table three, just hey, what are we afraid of? What is concerning us? What is that nagging thought in the back of your head? And just get it out there. And it doesn't have to, I in fact, it shouldn't be like a therapy session. It shouldn't be, okay, I'm gonna unpack here on day one, but it could just be like, I'm concerned about how I'm going to be perceived, portraying this character. I'm concerned about how it's going to feel engaging in this simulated act of intimacy. And once we have all of those things out on the table, then as a team, you can problem solve and you can say, okay, so if we can't bring somebody in, what is possible for us to do?

And you can just ask the question okay, are you concerned? When you need, and maybe they're not gonna know in that moment. Maybe they're gonna need to take the day or take the week, or keep doing the tablework, keep doing the read-through, and once you get to the point where you're starting to embody, you're starting to think about embody, then they have that whole time period to think about what kind of process would work for me. I think that there's a great opportunity to let everybody in the room have that sense of autonomy, have that sense of leadership, and get to dictate the process that works best for them. In fact, something that I do a lot when I come into a space is ask, hey, for anybody in here that has done any kind of simulated intimacy before, can you tell me what worked for you and didn't work for you?

Because I'm never gonna know. And there have been so many rooms that I've walked into that I'm just like, here's the tool we're gonna use, because this is a tool everybody uses, and then they're like, actually, we hate that tool. And we don't want to use it, and it's not on me to say, that's wrong of you. Because they get to tell me what does and doesn't work, and anybody can facilitate that conversation of figuring out what does and doesn't work for a room once we got to I also want to just take off my intimacy director hat for a minute and put on my dramaturgy hat. Part of I think dramaturges are some of Intimacy Director's greatest allies in the room. But anyone can commit acts of dramaturgy.

And actually, it's very timely. That quote, commit acts of dramaturgy, is from a like dramaturge to the stars, Morgan Jeanesse, who we just found away, found found out, passed away, I believe, yesterday. And so I'm very honored to bring their spirit into this room. Morgan Jeannez talked often about committing acts of dramaturgy, and that anyone in the room can commit acts of dramaturgy, and that in fact it is our moral imperative to commit acts of dramaturgy. And I name that because I think that's something that people forget about when they think about intimacy, is they think a lot about rules, and they think a lot about safety, they think about a lot a lot about if we're gonna stage a scene of sexual contact and we need to have excellent.

And I'm like, have you thought about stylizing it? Have you thought about dance or movement? Have you thought about lighting? Have you thought about hiding it in some way? Have you thought about making sounds? And so it's like Oh like theater. Oh, what? We've said the word in the face. Make friends with your set designers. Make friends with your set designers. You're lighting designers. I think that and intimacy professionals can be allies in those things too. Like I've worked on scenes that are just sound, off stage sound, and it's so fun to work on that. But if you're concerned or your actors are concerned about certain things, and you can mitigate those concerns with other forms of art, go off.

Go at it. And that's why I say that like dramaturgy is the juice there, because we together as artists can say, what is the story? What is important to get across? It need not be touched to a very specific part of a body. I do not feel equipped to stage. Tangential. But on this, before like there is a case to be made for convincing productions, teaching productions that they need to budget for us, that they need to allocate resources for us. There is a lot to be said about how we deserve to be paid for our work. And there's a difference between a production that just doesn't have the money, yeah, and a production that didn't budget for it. There's a difference. And I do that and then I talk to them about here's typically what my rate is.

But there is often other value in something that in a project that I'm interested in. That value might be, and I just did this, I said, hey, that's not my typical rate. I have some people that I'm training that I'm working with who are ready to take on this project. If I take this on as like the head person for this, will you bring on these three other people who don't have my resume but who are ready to do this work? And so the value add for me is I now have three people who have experience where they previously did not. That's a value to me. It's not payment, but it's valuable. And there's a lot of talk in that Facebook group you mentioned, right? There's a lot of talk in just conversations between intimacy professionals about like rates and under like people undercutting rates.

And that is a really important conversation for us to be having. So nobody else gets that job is very different than a production saying we have $20. And you say, okay, can I do X, Y, and C? Can you feature me in this way? Can you commit to me that we're going to get these really gorgeous production photos that I put on my Instagram because I'm putting myself out there in the world as an intimacy profession, right? Are there other value ads? And we're kicking out under capitalism here, right? Getting paid for our work matters. Allocating resources via money is how productions sometimes learn that we are valuable, and that it's sometimes not the lesson of production needs to learn. Sometimes the lesson is that they should just ask us.

So before you, so it's all that to say, directors, producers, before you decide you don't have the resources to hire an intimacy professional, reach out to some. Reach out to some. Like I trade you, all of us have your training people. Reach out to us because we might be super happy to help you take on that project because it's going to bring value to our field and to our community and to the people that we care about in this work. And then do what we know what Just said. It's true. It's good. Well, thank you. Thank you so much for being here. What an incredible and intimate conversation.

[1:07:02] Mark-Eugene Garcia: Yeah. I just I love hearing about it because it is so new and it is new to the world that doesn't know it. But it's even new just like we were saying, to those of us who are familiar with it and agree with it, it's still very new to us. So there's still so much to learn. And I'm so glad that they touched on and that it's part of what this book is for. Not everyone's going to have the budget and how we can try to stage intimacy as sensitively as possible without having the budget to hire a designated intimacy coordinator. Because so much of it is just being aware and understanding that this is an issue that has a level of expertise and why.

[1:07:54] Brooke M. Haney: Yeah, I think some of it like I was working on a project recently that didn't have one, and there were some scenes that I knew were gonna that would have been would have benefited from one. Yeah, but I was not in the I was an actor. I wasn't part of the other I'm not that person who's hiring them. But I took a lot of what I learned from our NTMC coordinator, and in the scenes that we had, it was a constant let's check in. All right, where what are like the off limit zones on you? And to this person, it was their neck. Like they they have they had some trauma with that and they I don't want anyone touching my neck. I'm like, absolutely. And we you and I will sit here. Is that another thing that like choreograph this? You wouldn't necessarily like until you ask the question, right? You wouldn't necessarily think it's not always sexual.

[1:08:43] Mark-Eugene Garcia: Yeah.

[1:08:43] Brooke M. Haney: And I think that's what a lot of people hear intimacy and they immediately think sex. And but if your neck is whatever the trauma you have, then it could be a buddy scene where someone throws their arm around your shoulder. Totally. Yeah. And suddenly that is traumatic for you. And now that we know, we can think about ways to get the exact same effect without doing that. Without doing that. And that's the thing is it was, and then it was taking in those moments of, okay, how are you? Where are you? Like before we went to any scene, and like that breathe, that moment, and just knowing that you were in a place of trust. And all of that is stuff I learned from watching hours. And I was like, okay, I don't have the training, but I will take what I know and try to make the best of this situation.

[1:09:28] Mark-Eugene Garcia: And I talked to them about the show that I had directed where I knew I needed a fight consultant.

[1:09:35] Brooke M. Haney: Yeah.

[1:09:35] Mark-Eugene Garcia: It was a one act festival. There was no budget to hire a fight choreographer. But I reached out to a fight choreographer I know and said, Can you talk me through and help me? And if I take video, actually I said, Can I zoom you into a rehearsal? And she said, No, but you can take video and send it to me and I'll send you notes to make sure that we're doing this neck cracking as safely as possible. And but and I had not even thought about some of the moments of intimacy because one of them was a kiss, and I wasn't thinking about it until the question, oh, how long, what count? Do you what's a and I was like, Oh, yeah, this is intimate. Like, I have someone on hand consulting who is also an intimacy coordinator, and I hadn't thought of that.

And there was a moment where someone was sick in bed and had to get lifted out. And we went to stage that, and the actors said, Okay, where can I touch you? Where is in a where's off limits? Where and again, it's because it is still a process, especially for those of us who have been doing this for a long time. And no matter how conscious we're trying to be, the there's stuff that we're still learning. Again, I hadn't thought. Oh, yeah, like lifting someone out of a bed was also because they're sick and you're trying to get them to stand up and like they were gonna take them to the hospital, whatever it was. That is intimacy too.

[1:10:57] Brooke M. Haney: Oh totally. Even when we did Encore, me as the baker and the baker's wife and Into the Woods, you don't think about that in that show. But at the end of It Takes Two, there's a kiss.

[1:11:07] Mark-Eugene Garcia: Yeah.

[1:11:07] Brooke M. Haney: And I remember it was a big issue, and it's not even on the episode, but it was a big issue where she was like, Oh, I don't want to kiss him. And I was like, Okay, and then she goes and explains, she's like, I am not an actor. Like, we're coming back 20 years later to do this show. She's I am a psychologist. I have three kids, a husband, I am nine months pregnant, I have all of these things, and they're gonna be watching the show, and that's not something that's in our lives anymore. And I was like, Okay. And immediately they like this for reality series, immediately they pulled us aside, and then the producers are like talking to us, and one of them's talking to me, like, oh, she doesn't want to kiss you.

What do you feel? And I'm like, I feel fine. It's okay. She's not an actor, this is not what she's doing. Bad TV, Mark. That's why it didn't make it onto the other side. Totally, totally. That's a hundred percent. And then she they were like, the director wants the kiss and she doesn't want to kiss. Who's gonna win? I'm like, She was. I'm not gonna kiss her if she doesn't want it. That's assault.

[1:12:01] Mark-Eugene Garcia: Yeah.

[1:12:01] Brooke M. Haney: Yeah. And they were like, okay. And then that part didn't uh uh end up, and I'm glad it didn't. But at the same time, yeah, it's one of those moments of just you don't think about it that sometimes just in where a place when we are in our life changes the level of intimacy in there. It's all it's so complicated, but that's what they're exports. And it it's it's something obviously, as we've talked for quite a bit, are very passionate about.

[1:12:25] Mark-Eugene Garcia: And I'm very happy that we're passionate about it and that it they exist.

[1:12:31] Brooke M. Haney: It's yeah, and it's all about just like finding exactly how all of those puzzle pieces fit together.

[1:12:40] Mark-Eugene Garcia: I love a good puzzle.

[1:12:41] Brooke M. Haney: Yes, me too.

[1:12:42] Mark-Eugene Garcia: Who else loved a good puzzle, Mark?

[1:12:44] Brooke M. Haney: Is it Sondheim?

[1:12:44] Mark-Eugene Garcia: It was Steven Sondheim.

[1:12:48] Brooke M. Haney: If we're known for anything, segue for how serious the topic was. But next time we will be delving into Matching Minds with Sondheim by Barry Joseph. It's is an incredible book that we had a really cool exhibit for it too for a while.

[1:13:01] Mark-Eugene Garcia: Yes.

[1:13:07] Brooke M. Haney: And I got to help put together one of those puzzles, and that was very honored on that. But we will talk more about that in the next episode. I will talk about the Sondheim original cast member who came in and looked at the exhibit and said, Oh, I have one of those.

[1:13:11] Mark-Eugene Garcia: Oh.

[1:13:11] Brooke M. Haney: In the next episode. Previews, spoilers, and secrets. Um remember, follow us on Instagram at Drama book Show podcast.

[1:13:33] Mark-Eugene Garcia: Please subscribe to the Drama book shop on eventbrite so that you can be alerted every time we add an event to our calendar.

[1:13:38] Brooke M. Haney: Give us a look at and uh rating and a star or subscribe and a comment.

[1:13:44] Mark-Eugene Garcia: All of those things that make people like us and remember us.

[1:13:49] Brooke M. Haney: And remember, all the books we talk about can be found here at the Drama Bookshop.

[1:13:53] Mark-Eugene Garcia: And so can we.

[1:13:54] Brooke M. Haney: And we will.

[1:13:55] Mark-Eugene Garcia: See you at the bookshop.