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[0:00] Mo Brady: If they could see me now, that little gang of mine...

[0:07] Mo Brady: You're listening to Fosse and Verdon from The Ensemblist, the only podcast that shows you Broadway from the inside out.

[0:13] Mo Brady: Welcome, I'm Mo Brady.

[0:15] Mo Brady: That's the kind of top drawer, first-rate shums I attract. All I can say is, wow, we look at where I am.

[0:24] Mo Brady: Tonight I landed, pow, right in a pot of jam.

[0:28] Mo Brady: This spring, FX is airing the limited television series Fosse-Verdon, and as episodes have been released,

[0:35] Mo Brady: The Ensemblist is speaking to some of the artists with Broadway cred who helped make the series possible.

[0:40] Mo Brady: In the final episode of Fosse-Verdon, we see Gwen and Bobby back together to work on a pre-Broadway revival of Sweet Charity.

[0:47] Mo Brady: Performing what ends up being a watered-down version of Big Spender are many current Broadway dancers like Rosie Lonnie Fiedelman, Kate Bailey, Aaron Moore, Yesenia Ajala, Jamie Varezin, and Ariana Rosario.

[1:01] Mo Brady: But leading the pack is today's guest, Kelsey Ann Griffin.

[1:05] Mo Brady: Kelsey performed on Broadway herself in Bullets Over Broadway and Chicago.

[1:09] Mo Brady: She's also played Detective Harper on TV's Gotham for two seasons.

[1:13] Mo Brady: But for Fosse-Verdon, she plays the real-life Debbie Allen.

[1:17] Mo Brady: Allen is perhaps most beloved to musical theater lovers for playing Lydia in both the movie and TV versions of Fame.

[1:23] Mo Brady: Today, she's known for her work as Dr. Catherine Avery on Grey's Anatomy.

[1:28] Mo Brady: But she started as a Broadway baby, performing in Raisin, Ain't Misbehavin', Anita in the 1980 Broadway revival of West Side Story, and Charity in the Broadway revival of Sweet Charity.

[1:40] Mo Brady: Recording from Actors Connection's New York City studios, I asked Griffin about her experience with Fosse and embodying an icon.

[1:47] Mo Brady: Here's our conversation.

[2:02] Mo Brady: Hi.

[2:03] Kelsey Ann Griffin: Hi.

[2:04] Mo Brady: Would you introduce yourself and tell us your role on Fosse-Verdon?

[2:07] Kelsey Ann Griffin: My name is Kelsey Griffin, and I played the role of Debbie Allen on Fosse-Verdon.

[2:11] Mo Brady: And what was your relationship to Fosse's work prior to working on the series?

[2:16] Kelsey Ann Griffin: Well, I was actually in Chicago the Musical on Broadway for two years. That was like my master class in Fosse, basically. I got to work with the greats of Fosse. There's some really heavy hitters still in that show on stage, killing it every night. And so I fell in love with that movement through that show. Obviously from a kid and knowing all of his stuff, but to actually be around people that were in original productions and to move that way, learning from those women on that stage was a very awesome experience.

[2:47] Mo Brady: You are what I would call a success story in terms of being a triple threat, right? You have been a Broadway dancer. You have acted in television shows that don't have any musical theater to them. I'm intrigued. Did this opportunity, did this audition come to you from the dance side or the acting side?

[3:06] Kelsey Ann Griffin: It came from the acting side. There was no choreography audition. It was like, here's a song, do it, and improv.

[3:14] Mo Brady: We've heard a lot about big dance calls for Fosse-Verdon.

[3:17] Kelsey Ann Griffin: No, it was just me and the casting assistant in a room.

[3:21] Mo Brady: Wait, what were you improv-ing?

[3:23] Kelsey Ann Griffin: I don't know. I don't know. It just said improv. It wasn't even a piano player. It was literally like a track.

[3:31] Mo Brady: You were improv-ing dance.

[3:32] Kelsey Ann Griffin: Dance.

[3:33] Mo Brady: So they gave you sides.

[3:34] Kelsey Ann Griffin: They gave me sides. I started with the song, and it was not a piano. Again, a press play.

[3:39] Mo Brady: Oh, my goodness.

[3:40] Kelsey Ann Griffin: No piano player. Press play, intro, if they could see me now. You sang the song, like the 16-bar cut or whatever, and then it was like, okay. Then it was like a little dance break. You improv while you sang, and then it went right into the scene with the casting assistant and the camera. It's pretty low-key.

[3:58] Mo Brady: Well, at least you had all of that sort of Fosse vocabulary in your back pocket.

[4:03] Kelsey Ann Griffin: Yeah. It wasn't so intimidating. I knew where that world was. It's one of those really small rooms at Telsey, so it's very small. There's no kicking. It was very controlled.

[4:17] Mo Brady: So you get the offer for one episode.

[4:20] Kelsey Ann Griffin: I get a hold. It wasn't even an offer. They're like, is she available type of thing.

[4:25] Mo Brady: Right. In musical theater, we have sort of this moment that is, if it's not the cast list on the call board, it feels sort of like that. You get a call from a person, and it's like, you did it.

[4:34] Kelsey Ann Griffin: Yeah. But this is much more like maybe, maybe, maybe, maybe.

[4:38] Mo Brady: Yeah. It's like three calls. Like, okay, you're still on hold. Okay, we're going back and forth. Okay, we haven't heard anything yet. It's a very back and forth until you get the final offer. And then, even when you get the final offer, like my agent calls, like, okay, you booked it, you still have to wait for the paper offer to come in. Because word of mouth means nothing until you get the actual offer offer.

[4:58] Kelsey Ann Griffin: Oh, this business.

[4:59] Mo Brady: That's crazy, the back and forth.

[5:02] Mo Brady: So the offer was for one episode?

[5:05] Kelsey Ann Griffin: Yeah.

[5:06] Mo Brady: Okay. And when did you get the paper offer?

[5:08] Kelsey Ann Griffin: Yeah. And did you rehearse like here in Midtown, or were you going to the studios?

[5:12] Kelsey Ann Griffin: No, we were right at Midtown at one of those random Ripley Greer's in Midtown.

[5:16] Mo Brady: Yeah. That's where all the glamour happens.

[5:18] Kelsey Ann Griffin: Yeah. So you have rehearsal with Susie Meisner?

[5:21] Kelsey Ann Griffin: Susie Meisner and Brandon and Lammy, they call her. Marianne Lamb. Yeah, she's just, they were just, the three of them together were like awesome. And then it was even cooler because Mimi Quillen was in the room as well, who is the Fosse legacy, was Fosse's like assistant on Sweet Charity. It was like a dream because I walked in and like, I'm like, I know, that's Mimi. I'm like, oh my God. And she was, Susan and her crew were kind of on the back burner. It was mostly me and Mimi the whole time, like going through the stuff because she was like, this is what we did, this is how we worked it with Debbie, because she taught Debbie. So it was like, from like my inner like child musical theater nerd, I don't think I had like grasped what was really happening, you know?

Like I was like, I'm literally, this woman literally, I'm learning it through her. And she would pop in, she had this awesome Glenn Vernon impersonation, so she'd pop into like her Glenn Vernon voice, which obviously she knows it best because she was literally around her and had all these awesome stories. And she would just pop in and like, she would like start doing like a little like move from whatever show she was talking about. And you're just like, that is that movement. There are very few people that can literally do it so naturally and effortlessly. And she just literally was just doing like a little hip and it was just like.

[6:34] Kelsey Ann Griffin: Not only is the style of movement, I mean, it is something you can learn.

[6:38] Yes.

[6:39] Kelsey Ann Griffin: Like ballet.

[6:40] Yes, absolutely.

[6:41] Kelsey Ann Griffin: Technique. But when it is part of sort of your essence of who you are as a dancer, people learned how to dance differently.

[6:48] Yes.

[6:49] Kelsey Ann Griffin: In the 60s and 70s than they do now. And it's very apparent. It wasn't something that she was taught. It was something that she just always had. It was breathtaking. She would dance, we'd dance together and she'd walk me through the whole thing. And it was like maybe like three hours. The scene in the show that, you know, that was in the script was about Fosse and Vernon, like on that last like moment of like realizing that it was always each other that they loved. And so she would tell about like just the spark between the two of them and the things that he would say and how, because she was really close with Gwen.

[7:21] Mo Brady: So tell me about Debbie Allen. What are your memories of Debbie Allen prior to booking this job?

[7:28] Kelsey Ann Griffin: I mean, so many. I mean, besides like fame and like, well, also because I was super into the show because I went to performing arts high school. So when I was like preparing for that experience, I was like watching everything I could because my school actually, it's not where I did. I did not from New York, but it looks like also the fame building in the, like the same. So like, I was like, I'm going to faint. Like I'm, I'm literally going to fame. Like this is like the coolest thing ever. You know, once I started learning the history and all of the roles that she did, she was an inspiration. I was like, oh, this is what I want to do. The longevity of her career is something to truly aspire to. The longevity and the ebb and flow of what she's been able to create for herself is awesome. So I definitely, it's something I admired and I just.

[8:10] Kelcy Ann Griffin: I don't think it really hit me what I was doing. I was trolling your Instagram before our interview, and you tagged her and she commented on it. She commented on my picture, which was like... And it was so effusive. I mean, her comment was just like, I'm so excited to see you. It was so lovely. And then she like reposted it on her story. Like, you never know if people are going to see it. But I wanted her to know that I was, you know, out here and like, I hope that I did her proud, you know, representing her on screen.

[8:39] So talk about playing a real life person. In an essence, we're very similar. So it really wasn't hard. You know, I have very similar characteristics, very similar voice, like that type of thing. So it was pretty easy to kind of tap into. But they were kind of guiding you to being very realistic and honest to who Debbie was as a person and her spunk and her, you know, her fire that she had. They really wanted me to bring that out. And you're gathering that from watching So Much Fame. You're gathering that from their stories. And then I did like the deep dive into Sweet Charity, you know, because there's all that footage of her doing the show. So like, I deep dive into that.

[9:15] Where did you see it? Is it on YouTube? There's some clips on YouTube. I did actually, I also did the... Oh, yeah. The Library of Performing Arts at Lincoln Center. Yes, yes. I did that too. Just to like see, because I, you know, there's, there's no way to really know. And there is some stuff on YouTube, but it's kind of limited. One of my ultimate inspirations for that was the famous scene with her and Gwen Verdon. Because that was also what that scene was about was the difference between Debbie Allen and Gwen Verdon. So that scene in Fame when they're dancing back and forth, that like dance battle that they have.

[9:43] Yes. So that was also like something I really pulled from because that was something they really wanted to accentuate was the difference between the way that these two women moved. How much of the story and sort of the context of what's going on in the scene is a conversation that's happening with you versus things you're just imbuing from this situation? So it was a little bit of both. I did get like a little bit of guidance, like it is about establishing the history of their relationship with just a look. I was getting some bits of that information, but I also was just gauging off of how it was being set, how it was being staged.

[10:18] I was watching it. I was like, that's a weird acting challenge, because it's the, you are the forefront of the scene. And yet it is the penultimate moment of an eight episode mini series about these two other people who are also in the scene. Yeah. As soon as he was there and had the, you know, like the hair and the shirt and he got in his pose and he, there was just like this heightened energy. So being on the like the later part of that scene and just watching, it was really easy to just watch because I felt like I was just really being taught a lesson, a great lesson, you know, in acting and like it just storytelling.

[11:00] So how many days did you film? We were there for one day.

[11:03] Man. One day in and out.

[11:05] And where did you film? We were at a college upstate and they made a joke how they were running out of theaters. Like they had to go upstate because they were running out of theaters to film in.

[11:14] Right. Because you can't just like go to a Broadway theater and film. There's sets there, unions are expensive. There's lots of reasons why that's cost prohibitive.

[11:23] Yeah. You can't do hair and makeup. Like what's, what happens?

[11:27] Well, so they were, I will say that the team and the costume and the hair people were incredible and really wanted everything to be authentic. So I actually had to go to Silvercup the day before to start prepping my hair because that wasn't my hair in the thing. It was a full, it wasn't a wig, it was a full weave, a full sew-in so that they could cut it and shape it the way that they, the way that Debbie Allen had her hair. So I had to go in and prep for like three hours before and just get my hair braided down. So I was like, oh, they're taking this seriously. Like they're not half-stepping anything.

[12:01] So when I show up that day, I had to show up really early before, like before a lot of people showed up because it, my hair was going to take about like five or six hours. And then they had to, it was like the dilemma of the hat, you know, the top hat had to be big enough to fit everything and fit all of the extra hair. Like it was a, it's a process. There's so many details that go into that you don't think about, but literally just someone picking out which hat I'm going to wear was a whole thing about sending assistance to the right hat shop to make sure it was the right size and the right look. And Michelle's head was smaller than mine. So we had to have two different hats. So we kept changing them out every time the cameras were off. So there was not a lot of downtime. It was like, I was sitting around for a long time, but I was getting my hair, you know, so.

[12:44] So is that the only thing they filmed all day? No, we were the first scene up. And then after we wrapped, I know that they were shooting that big spender one. They were shooting that in the same place.

[12:53] And is that your first rehearsal with Michelle and Sam? And how long is that? Maybe 15 minutes while the, while the, um, you know, the cameras get set up and, cause it's not, it's not so much a rehearsal. It's really more for where the cameras are going to be. It was like rehearsing with the inner ear things and cause Alex was there. So, you know, Alex Moore was there and so he was playing the piano for us. So it was kind of, it was more of a rehearsal like with him and then Michelle and like us getting our groove, but we maybe ran through it like from front to back, maybe twice.

[13:26] And how many times did you film it? It's like from all the different angles. So like the cameras start behind first. So you do the cameras behind for a solid two hours. So you're, I probably sang that song probably about 40 times. And that was my question. So it is live.

[13:40] It's live. And so you've got the in-ear. I have the in-ear. Some of it was a body mic. Some of it was in-ear mic. So it was a lot of times where I couldn't, the piano wasn't playing out loud. It was just an inner ear mic and same for Michelle. We all had inner ears to hear the piano.

[13:55] What's like when you close your eyes, what was, what's the thing you're like, I can't believe I got to do this. I can't believe I had this interaction.

[14:04] Towards the end of the day shooting, we kept kind of going over the last like moments of the scene where like, we were just talking and Sam was talking to me and we were, you know, going through that little piece of the scene and I'm sitting there and you're having a moment. I was having a moment. I was like, I am in a scene with Sam Rockwell. Like he's staring, he is sitting across from me and watching him work is breathtaking because he is so genuine. He is so smart. Every take was different. Every take, every take was different. And I don't, we shot it at least 30 times. I don't know how he was able, everything was different every time, which is really hard to do when you're doing the same thing over and over again.

[14:46] So I think there were moments where I was standing on stage and the cameras were on me. I do remember this one part, it was like one of the final times we shot it and the cameras were behind me and they were getting my coverage of me listening to Sam give me like direction. And I was like, man, this is cool. Like this, like this does not get any from something you watch on TV and you're like, oh, I would love to work with him one day to when you're actually standing on stage working with him. It's one of those moments that you just, you just can't like replace. So that's probably one of my favorite, like, wow.

[15:24] Mo Brady: Special thanks to Kelsey Ann Griffin for sharing her stories with us this week. You can learn more about her and how to connect with her online by visiting our website, TheEnsemblist.com. The Ensemblist was produced today by me, Mo Brady. You can help others find out about The Ensemblist by leaving us a rating and review on Apple Podcasts. Super easy. Just open up your app, click on the episode you're in right now and click the stars, whatever you feel. One to five, whatever makes you happy. You can also download episodes wherever you get your podcasts or at TheEnsemblist.com. Also follow us on Instagram to see the latest posts from our website, where we share the stories of talented artists working in Broadway ensembles every day. Thanks for listening guys. Until next time.