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[0:00] Mo Brady: You're listening to Hurt and Healing from The Ensemblist, the only podcast that shows Broadway from the inside out. Welcome, I'm Mo Brady.

[0:21] Mo Brady: As performers, our bodies are our instruments. We use our physical beings to create sounds, embody characters, and tell stories. So, when that physical instrument is suffering, how does that affect a performer's artistry? And perhaps more interestingly, what does it do to a performer's psyche when they aren't able to work to the best of their abilities?

[0:57] Mo Brady: Jōvan Dansberry made his Broadway debut last season in the ensemble of King Kong. Performing both as one of the show's dancers and the manipulator of Kong's left paw proved to be a monumental challenge, one that took him out of the show for months and ultimately stopped him from closing the Broadway production. But for Jōvan, the biggest challenge was not the physical recovery, but dealing with the stigma of being injured. Here's our conversation.

[1:42] Mo Brady: Hi, will you introduce yourself and tell us what neighborhood of New York City you live in?

[2:01] Jōvan Dansberry: So, my name is Jōvan, Jōvan Dansberry, and I live now downtown in Flatiron, Flatiron Gramercy.

[2:09] Mo Brady: And your most recent Broadway show and your debut was King Kong.

[2:12] Jōvan Dansberry: King Kong, yeah. And it was really exciting to be a part of the project because, you know, it was the most challenging thing people could do, but as well as being a challenge, it was also one of those things that everyone got to do what they do. I was in the King's company, so I did the puppetry as well as the dancing in the ensemble.

[2:29] Mo Brady: Had you done puppetry like that before?

[2:31] Jōvan Dansberry: I had never done puppetry before, and so it's kind of funny when we talk about the audition. People are like, how did you audition for King Kong? I basically say we did everything except swim, you know, stacking people, did a lot of partnering and balancing poles on our hand to make sure that we can control an inanimate object, yoga. So we did a lot of different things to test our physical endurance and ability to just work as a team.

[2:54] Mo Brady: For someone who hadn't, didn't see the show, what was the King's company?

[2:58] Jōvan Dansberry: So the King's company was a group of 13 individuals, and then we had four swings, four or five swings. There was 10 people on the stage that manipulated the puppet with different cables, ropes, and bong-ra-ku movements, so we actually touched the puppet of Kong. He was a 20-foot tall gorilla, 2,000 pounds. And then there was also three gentlemen who operated him kind of with joysticks, kind of like a Game Boy kind of style to do any automation that required the movement of the head, the shoulders, the hips. And so all these people worked together. With that said, there was a lot of, you could not work without someone else. You know, it was so interesting to be in a process where everything you did required the work of another individual.

And you know, it was my Broadway debut, but I've been in many shows, and you get to do your track. You know, there's some dance partnering and everything like that, but you get to concentrate on yourself. Well, this was definitely the most selfless kind of show you could be in because your job required other people to do their job, and I think you had to walk into that theater 100% at all times. It could be very mentally exhausting, but it was also very thrilling to be in that process.

[4:05] Mo Brady: How do 10 people move a 2,000 pound gorilla?

[4:08] Jōvan Dansberry: Yeah. So, you know, we have these ropes, and a lot of it is counterweight, and a lot of things are automation. The funny thing about it is we learned, none of us were puppeteers. Maybe two people had participated in War Horse on tour or on Broadway, but there was 17 people who were all new to this. And we learned it because they did the production in Australia, and they videotaped it, and we learned it from video. So there was no one who came up to me and said, this is how you puppeteer. Hold this, hold that. You're going to move it like this. We all got to learn how to make it our own. Looking back on it, it's kind of crazy that, you know, we're learning how to operate 2,000 pounds of machinery based on video.

And of course, we had really great leaders, but there was only so much you can actually do with someone who didn't do your track beforehand to tell you exactly what to do and how to do it. We had a movement choreographer director just for Kong to teach us how to make sure that, you know, he didn't look like he was a puppet. We didn't want him to look like he was floating. So things about, like, grounding the paw, or making sure that one paw is always down. You can't have both of them up if he's going to be walking. Because I was the left paw, I was constantly underneath the puppet. So I never got to really see the process. I just only could feel things. And that was kind of like, you have to be really in tune, like, is it time to move or not?

Because it's not on count. As much as we want to think, okay, we're going to do this on count four, he will break down. He'll run late. So we had these in-ears device in our ears to tell us what was happening at all times. You constantly had to be alert and aware because you never knew when things were going to go the way they should go, or if they were going to work out perfectly or not, which leads to, you know, the repetition of things can wear the body down. So what I had was called a bone spur. So because of the position I was in, which is the left paw, I was in a constant squat, kneeling, lunging position. That caused a lot of friction between the femur and the hip socket. It wore down some of the cartilage, little small pieces of the bone started breaking out into the hip socket.

I found that because I was at an audition and I got to rehearsal right after the audition, because we had rehearsal for Kong almost every Thursday, to get swings in, to brush up on different tracks and everything like that. So in the middle of the rehearsal, I was feeling my hip was acting up and I thought it was the adductor. So I actually ended up calling out, called out for the Thursday, Friday shows, and I ended up calling out for the rest of the weekend because it just was bothering me. My hip was just bothering me. And then I came back to do the show on Tuesday. And when I came back to do the show, the dancing was fine. It was not great, but I was able to make adjustments. You know, when you're dancing with a human and your partner work, they can feel you.

I got to the puppet and the puppet is going to move whenever he wants to move, you know, and I realized I cannot ground myself. So I was having a lot of hip problems again. So I ended up calling out halfway through the show. And the next day I went to CDMD because it was really hard to get into an ortho right away. So I went to CDMD. They did an x-ray and they found small bone fragments in the hip socket. And they said, Oh, you have bone spurs. You know, at first we just like the doctor as well thought it was just going to be a strain and that we were going to need like a week to heal. And then she's like, Oh, you need to go see an ortho right away. So I got to see an ortho and I had an MRI done and they found these small, the cartilage had been worn down because of all the kneeling, lunging and squatting.

In a way, this is something that could lead to a hip replacement. And at first I was told to take a week off. So when I was told to take a week off, I was like, Oh, so I'm going to, it's just inflammation that's going to go down. I'll be back in the show in a week. Well, come to find out after that week, I had another follow-up appointment. He goes, okay, now it's time for PT. And I was like, but back in the show, he's like, Oh no, you're not going back to the show for probably three more weeks. So right then I already felt bad because in my head I had told my cast, Oh, I'll be back in a week. What I did not understand is that how long of the process of healing it could take. So I was out of the show for about four weeks.

And then it was, it was a really hard time for me. I feel like the show made everyone feel like they were such an individual and integral part. No one had a track that was not built for that person. The King's Company, you felt so needed. And so it was really hard to not go back. As much as people might think that you're like, you're out of the show, you know, like you're fine. Like doctors approved, you're good. You still push, push, push really hard to get back. I don't know if that comes from that. I mean, this is my Broadway debut. I think it's an adrenaline rush constantly trying to go through that season until it's all of a sudden over. And you're like, Oh, now we're just doing this for the audience and it's fine. But you start feeling things differently.

[9:20] Jōvan Dansberry: That's exactly when I felt it. I started feeling it when we actually got our closing notice. You're starting to notice things that are different. So I went back to the show. After four weeks of being off, I was feeling a little bit better. The doctor gave me a pass to go try the show. So I went to go try the show, doing the dancing once again, doing some modifications. Everyone's so excited to have you back. They're working with you as much as they can to make sure you are good and you're good to go. Dance captain was great. Stage management was great. All my partners were great. Got back to the puppet. Everything that I was taught to do in PT about how to sit back in my hip and what I can do kind of went out the window because the way that the puppet moved, it didn't allow me to actually have control of my own body.

I had to constantly release control. And because I had to release control, there was friction. There was constantly jolting around because even automation moves his shoulders, he moves the whole body. Even in the runs, like when we make Kong run, it's a constant forward back motion in a lunging position with 200 pounds dropping onto you. I remember watching the show and I was like, that is a lot. That is a lot to do for someone for eight shows a week. And you know, when I think about what they did in Australia, they only did six shows a week and the King's Company all rotated positions. So no one had to do the same position more than twice a week. So here we couldn't learn all the different tracks of King's Company because of equity rules.

That's you have a track, one track. We can't learn eight tracks or we could, but they would have to pay us all to learn all of them. So doing one track, eight shows a week did not allow the body to really even out. I think looking back on it, it was a lot to do eight shows a week. I am happy I did it, but I can see where the problems lie. When I got to the doctor, I said, all I want to do is be able to dance. I might not be able to be a puppeteer on something like that scale ever again because of how it moves the body to be in that low, low squat lunge position for 45 minutes every eight times a week.

[11:35] Jōvan Dansberry: I want to ask you about one of those things that you mentioned earlier. You said that some people might be like, oh great, you're out of the show, you're covered, you got a doctor's note. How does being out of the show affect your pocketbook? Depending on the process we had, being on Broadway, probably producers definitely put into workers' comp. The thing about it is you have to be out for more than a week to even allow workers' comp to come in. Then after that, there's a whole process of getting things through. I went maybe four or five weeks without even receiving any pay whatsoever. It definitely affects you. Yes, later on, you'll get paid, but it does affect your pocketbook very quickly.

The union does really great things about supplemental and getting you the money that you may have lost and all that kind of stuff, but it does take a long time. I tried to go back to the show and I offered to actually do just my dance track. Everyone was on board, but unfortunately due to, once again, certain rules in the union, you can't do half your track. That was really hard to hear because I wanted to be there. I wanted to close out the show with everybody. There's a little stigma of being like, are you just doing this so you can be out? It's really hard to explain to people how much you really do want to be there. I had a lot of moments of feeling guilty that I wasn't there or how it may have looked by being out.

You can't explain to anybody what you're feeling or what you're dealing with. A lot of people, especially as dancers, push through their injuries. A lot of people do. Unfortunately, I think that has caused us to have some moments of feeling insecure about what to do. You don't want to ever look weak to anybody. You don't look weak to your fellow colleagues. You don't look weak to a casting director. I remember getting asked to do pre-pro for something and I said I was out of town. I didn't want to tell a choreographer that I was injured. That's kind of crazy that we put ourselves in that mindset that we don't want to tell someone that we got injured. It should be something that we should talk about healing. It's not like I'm injured and I'm out forever. It's like, oh, I'm dealing with an injury right now, but I would love to be with you on the next one. Instead, I told them I was out of town.

[14:02] Jōvan Dansberry: Well, it's easier. There's fewer questions. That's very true. Sometimes, you don't need to say, I got injured because of this and I have to have this whole heart-to-heart with you about what happened. I didn't know how long I was going to be out for. It was kind of very confusing. It sounds like you were getting information on a continuing basis from your doctors about how long the recovery process would be. Instead of a full, this is going to take this amount of time. I also think it's because no one could understand what the body needed to do to do that job. Also, I wasn't able to do any of the things that I needed to do in PT. I can only do so much of squatting and lunging with weight before I actually get a 20-foot tall, 2,000-pound puppet in front of me.

You can't feel what you're going to feel yet. That was also really hard for me to go back and forth in the show. I think a lot of people are like, don't come back unless you're healthy. Well, I can't know if I'm healthy until I actually got to do that job. It was when getting back into it, I was like, oh, this is not ready. Here we are in September and you're dancing at the Met.

[15:01] Jōvan Dansberry: I am dancing at the Met. I am doing Porgy and Bess at the Metropolitan Opera. I also was really hoping to be healed in time to do this. It's something I've been looking forward to since they announced they were doing it three years ago. I was wanting, wanting to be a part of that. I made sure that even before my injury happened, I had a leave with Kong to go ahead and be able to do both projects. Then after the injury happened, the one thing I kept on saying to the doctors and to PT is, I don't know if I can't puppeteer, but I have to be able to dance because I want to do this project. Going into Porgy and Bess, I also talked to the choreographer, Camille Brown, and I talked with the director.

They knew that I was dealing with the injury, but they worked with me to make sure that things weren't too crazy, too low. There's moments I had to sit down. There was moments that I had to ask someone to go in for me, but they worked with me and I'm feeling great now. I am feeling really good. I have my moments where I wake up and my hip is locked or it's cracking. The doctor said that I won't need surgery, which is incredible. I'm very happy about that, but it's something that I'm going to have to live with because the only way of getting them out is through surgery. We'll see what happens in five years. Maybe it's something that I might look into of getting them out or having a small, they call it a half hip replacement surgery or something like that. For now, I'm thinking that just with a lot of rehab and doctor's visits, it's going to be good.

[16:25] Jōvan Dansberry: If you could go back to that first doctor's visit where the doctor told you about the bone spur or the bone spurs, would you do anything differently? I think I would have told myself it's okay to take time to heal. I pushed it real hard to be back in a week. Okay, now I'm going to be back in three weeks. The doctors told me it's going to take some time. Now, they didn't know how much time, but I think in their head, they were like, you might take five to six weeks getting your mind around that because this is my Broadway debut and there were very few injuries that actually came out of Kong, which I was very grateful for. Very few people were out for a long extended period of time, so it was really hard to know how to navigate that.

If you take your leave, do you take a leave and how long do you take it for? I had no one around me to know exactly how to do this. I constantly pushed. I think if I just gave myself earlier, just said, okay, maybe call it quits and be okay with it and still feel like I'm going to have a process and be able to do the next one. After going back to the show for that last time, I didn't know if it was going to be my last show, but I did it like it could have been because as I was doing it and I was getting injured and more and more and feeling pain, I kept on telling myself this might be the last one. Just go out and go strong and be okay with it.

[17:54] Mo Brady: Special thanks to Jōvan Dansberry for sharing his stories with us. You can learn more about him and how to connect with him online by visiting our website, theensemblist.com. The Ensemblist was produced today by me, Mo Brady. You can help others find out about The Ensemblist by leaving us a rating and review on Apple Podcasts. You can also download episodes wherever you get your podcasts or at theensemblist.com. And make sure you're following us on Instagram. It's fall and we are pushing out photos and episodes. It's busy. We're back in business, baby. All right. Thanks for listening, guys. Until next time.