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[0:00] Mo Brady: You're listening to Smashed from The Ensemblist, the only podcast that shows you Broadway from the inside out. I'm Mo Brady.

[0:11] Aaron Albano: And I'm Aaron Albano. All day, baby.

[0:24] Mo Brady: Welcome back, listeners, to our tongue-in-cheek recap of what is television's most detailed depiction of the theater industry. And yes, we're still talking about Smash, the NBC series that aired from 2012 to 2013.

[0:37] Aaron Albano: Smash was also an incredible glimpse at the theater community in the early 2010s, as many of the show's writers, actors, and dancers were played by real Broadway performers with real Broadway cred. But Mo and I wanted to go back in time to see how the show has weathered.

[0:51] Mo Brady: The show famously didn't land with a wide audience, but can re-watching the series help us understand why? So let's dive in and talk about Season 1, Episode 11, The Movie Star.

[1:01] Aaron Albano: Mo, give us the stats.

[1:03] Mo Brady: Okay, Aaron. The Movie Star premiered on April 16, 2012. It was written by Julie Rottenberg and Eliza Zuritski and directed by Trisha Brock. Again, shout out to an all-female team.

[1:15] Aaron Albano: It's Women's History Month, baby.

[1:17] Mo Brady: Oh, perfect. Yay. The episode was viewed by 5.95 million viewers. Down again, man.

[1:25] Aaron Albano: This episode had three featured songs total, though one could argue that that spoken word version of Let Me Be Your Star could count for half.

[1:31] Mo Brady: Wow.

[1:32] Aaron Albano: Less.

[1:32] Mo Brady: Less. The other two were one original song by Shaiman and Whitman called Dig Deep, and a cover of Our Day Will Come by Ruby and the Romantics. And what happened in this episode, Mo?

[1:44] Mo Brady: Everyone in the Bombshell rehearsal room is abuzz about movie star Rebecca Duvall, especially her new understudy, Karen Cartwright. But as the company sits down in her first sing-through of Let Me Be Your Star, they realize she's not a vocalist like Karen or Ivy Lynn. You see, everyone said she could sing, but nobody on the Bombshell team bothered to check firsthand. Therefore, Eileen asks Derek, Tom, and Julia to come up with constructive solutions, one of which is Derek advocating for bringing Ivy back into the show, just in case they need her. All that Karen can wonder is what Ivy's return will mean for her, but once Rebecca showcases her ineptitude, Ivy and Karen begin to conspire together.

[2:27] Aaron Albano: Ivy teases Karen, prodding her that you're counting the minutes until she implodes, and if you're not, you're in the wrong business. Rebecca Duvall confides in Derek that she wishes Bombshell could delve into the story of Marilyn with a little less singing and dancing. The writers try adding a short scene for her at the Actors Studio, but she is still perplexed by the idea that the character would break into song. Eileen advocates for Rebecca, demanding a new, extra-long scene for her Marilyn. Eileen imparts an old adage to Assistant Ellis, keep your friends close, celebrities closer, and their assistants even closer still. For Eileen, this includes Rebecca Duvall and her many, many, many ideas for script revisions.

But in a late-night work session with the creative team, Rebecca turns out to be surprisingly candid about her own limitations, asking for keys to be lowered and ballads to be cut. Based on the collegial session, there's a new jazzy version of Dig Deep that adds references to Stanislavski, childhood trauma, and Sigmund Freud, everyone's favorite musical topics.

[3:32] Mo Brady: At a screening of Rebecca Duvall's new movie, Ivy and Karen talk about their hot-headed boyfriends and catch each other sneaking out of the boring movie. They share a laugh, followed by Ivy announcing she's annoying, she stole our part, we hate her, let's go drinking. After a few, Ivy tells Karen, when Rebecca Duvall goes down, everything's up for grabs. You're going to have to pry that part from my cold, dead hands. In other news, Julia and her separated husband Frank come together to get their son to improve in calculus, Ellis gets caught trying to pull one over on Rebecca Duvall's assistant, and Tom's date with chorus crush Sam stops short of physical intimacy because he's old-fashioned and believes in God.

[4:32] Aaron Albano: So much to unpack!

[4:33] Mo Brady: So much! I love the meanwhile part at the end.

[4:36] Aaron Albano: It's just, I mean, they're the characters that get cut for season two, so, except for Sam. The show has decided they are not interested in them, and so I have also decided that I am uninterested in them.

[4:48] Mo Brady: Perfect, perfect.

[4:49] Aaron Albano: All right, favorite Ensemblist moments, Aaron?

[4:52] Mo Brady: Actually, one of my favorite moments is, I think it's at the bar at the premiere, Philip Spathe as Dennis, they're talking about...

[5:01] Aaron Albano: Yeah, they're talking about how Rebecca is saying there should be less singing and dancing.

[5:06] Mo Brady: Yeah, and she wants to cut all the musical numbers, and he basically says, if there are no musical numbers, what happens to us? Which I thought the same exact thing.

[5:15] Aaron Albano: I also loved when Ivy and Karen are chilling in the bar, not watching the movie.

[5:20] Mo Brady: Oh, yes.

[5:21] Aaron Albano: Can I tell you, I think this is their best relationship, when they're not actually fighting, but they're friendly fighting. I feel like that's the clearest and most authentic relationship that quote-unquote rivals have in our business.

[5:38] Mo Brady: Where there's not this actual, real, ugly animosity between actors, but it's this, you and I are up for the same thing. I hope you get it, but I hope I get it more.

[5:48] Aaron Albano: Oh, yeah, they talk about the numbers, and they're like, I could do this number in this scene with my eyes closed.

[5:53] Mo Brady: Yeah, they openly talk about their strengths and weaknesses, and maybe not their weaknesses. They jokily and gleefully talk about their rivalry.

[6:01] Aaron Albano: Not in love, because love is too strong.

[6:03] Mo Brady: No, it's not personal.

[6:05] Aaron Albano: It's not in a vicious, malicious way. We've finally seen them become two peers, playfully wanting the same part, but not holding it against each other.

[6:14] Mo Brady: And that's great.

[6:15] Aaron Albano: Well, I think part of it is also that neither of them has the part at this point.

[6:20] Mo Brady: Yeah.

[6:20] Aaron Albano: Versus before, it was always Ivy's part, and Karen was gonna get it from her, or at the beginning of the series, it was nobody's part. This is the first time we've seen it not be either of their parts.

[6:33] Mo Brady: So the lack of stakes allows them to be adults about the whole thing.

[6:39] Aaron Albano: Right.

[6:41] Mo Brady: What did you think about the number, Dig Deep?

[6:43] Aaron Albano: This is the Stanislavski actor studio number.

[6:47] Mo Brady: Um, out of all the numbers we've now seen from Bombshell, they all kind of feel the same.

[6:54] Aaron Albano: Is that bad?

[6:55] Mo Brady: No, I think they do all feel the same, because they're all serving the same purpose in Smash.

[7:00] Aaron Albano: And so they're all sort of hitting the same notes in the television series.

[7:06] Mo Brady: And so there's very little energetic difference in the numbers.

[7:11] Aaron Albano: Um, what did you think of the performances in Dig Deep?

[7:14] Mo Brady: First off, Manny Herrera is one of my favorite dancers, the original Chistory in Wicked. And in that number, he gives this gorgeous 540.

[7:22] Aaron Albano: A 540 is a dance move where you jump off of one leg, kick both legs, and then land on the same leg.

[7:31] Mo Brady: I think I described that correctly. It was gorgeous.

[7:34] Aaron Albano: It was beautiful. Topped only by Bobby's apparent front walkover off the platform.

[7:40] Mo Brady: See, Wes Taylor has tricks, and he doesn't want you to know it, because he doesn't want to be pegged as a dancer.

[7:46] Aaron Albano: But Wesley Taylor is a fucking dancer.

[7:50] Mo Brady: Was that him?

[7:50] Aaron Albano: I think so.

[7:52] Mo Brady: I think so.

[7:52] Aaron Albano: That's impressive.

[7:53] Mo Brady: I had no idea.

[7:54] Aaron Albano: I mean, do you know of anywhere else in the Smash catalog where we have a dance double?

[8:00] Mo Brady: And why would we have a dance double for Bobby? Like, just give it to another dancer.

[8:04] Aaron Albano: Well, that's what I'm saying. I literally was like, I'm not aware of Wes's dance background. I was like, did Wes just do a front walkover off of a platform in a Josh Burgos piece?

[8:14] Mo Brady: Yes.

[8:14] Aaron Albano: Or did some—did we just have a dance double in the middle of Smash?

[8:18] Mo Brady: No, it's Wes Taylor.

[8:20] Aaron Albano: Wes Taylor has tricks you don't even know.

[8:22] Mo Brady: I am floored.

[8:23] Aaron Albano: I am so impressed. Good job, Wes.

[8:26] Mo Brady: Did you have any—

[8:27] Aaron Albano: No, I thought the number was dumb.

[8:28] Mo Brady: Great.

[8:29] Aaron Albano: Cool, cool, cool, cool, cool.

[8:30] Mo Brady: I said it was dumb.

[8:31] Aaron Albano: You know, and I think you hit on why. There's no reason for it.

[8:33] Mo Brady: These are just sort of songs about things that don't drive the plot forward.

[8:41] Aaron Albano: And I'm sort of tired of those kinds of songs.

[8:44] Mo Brady: They all really feel the same, and none of them are developing the characters.

[8:50] Aaron Albano: Yeah.

[8:51] Mo Brady: Like, they even did this in Smash, right? They had all the note cards, right? And you storyboard the story you want to tell, right?

[8:57] Aaron Albano: And you've got a start and a beginning, and sometimes things move around.

[9:01] Mo Brady: But basically, you know at the beginning, there's going to be, like, 20 moments we're going to get to in the show.

[9:07] Aaron Albano: One would think you would do that with a television series.

[9:09] Mo Brady: However, it really feels like they're making up Smash as they go along.

[9:15] Aaron Albano: Yeah.

[9:15] Mo Brady: There's, like, very grand swaths of arc that are happening in the season.

[9:21] Aaron Albano: But mostly, they're making it up as they go along.

[9:24] Mo Brady: We're going to see it next week with this Bollywood number you did.

[9:26] Aaron Albano: How dare you?

[9:27] Mo Brady: It's like, it is such a non sequitur, this Bollywood.

[9:31] Aaron Albano: I mean, can we talk about Dev for, like, a split second?

[9:35] Mo Brady: Oh, yeah, yeah.

[9:35] Aaron Albano: Let's talk about Dev. When did he become?

[9:37] Mo Brady: And that and it's so and then it's hanging it over her head. Yeah, you used to be so great. You used to be wonderful, used to be what we all wanted. I have some questions about the Rebecca Duvall relationship to this production.

[11:07] Aaron Albano: Oh sure. Speaking of the series Smash putting its energy in the wrong place, like why did we never see her audition? Like why didn't we see anybody hearing her sing and being like, "Oh, she's terrible, but we have to hire her anyway?" I mean, she was clearly a direct hire, but isn't the case—and correct me if I'm wrong—I think what happens even when a celebrity is offer only, they still will often be asked to do what's called a work session, which is like sitting down with the director and talking about the role and maybe they'll sing a little, but it's like a very low stakes.

[11:55] Mo Brady: Oh, yeah, at the very least this felt like the first time they all met her.

[12:00] Aaron Albano: Yes, because at the very least someone of a caliber will meet with the director, meet with the producer, meet with somebody even just to like talk about the production. None of that was happening here. It was so weird. It's such a weird way to talk about our industry. Like we don't audition people if they're moved. I don't know, I mean it did produce possibly one of my favorite moments in this episode, that spoken word "Let Me Be Your Star," the amount of shock that was on everyone's face.

[12:27] Mo Brady: Oh, it was so fun.

[12:32] Aaron Albano: It was, and Uma Thurman's doing a very good job of being a bad singer because it's fantastic.

[12:39] Mo Brady: Hot take.

[12:41] Aaron Albano: Thurman is good. Yeah, but that being said, I really like the way that they treat Rebecca. I actually feel like the compassion they have for that character in that scene where she's like, "I can't sing that. I need you to lower the keys. I need this to not be a ballad. I know what you—I know why you've hired me, and so I need you to help me play to my strengths." I thought that's one of the most compassionate and realistic depictions of an artist we've seen in the series. She has this self-awareness and ability to express her faults and express her shortcomings. Ivy could never do that, and when she was asked to do that, she couldn't. She fell apart because she had to prove that she had no fault.

[13:27] Mo Brady: I feel like that's where we see that, like, oh despite Rebecca not being equipped to do the role, she has the presence and confidence to be able to do the role because she can have those conversations with the director instead of Ivy, who would never have, no, because she has to prove that she's the best.

[13:46] Aaron Albano: Here's a question. Would a star like Rebecca Duvall get that much creative control over a script? Like she's really coming in to a show that is not complete but is like on its way and saying like, "No, let's change this. Let's change this."

[14:00] Mo Brady: Oh, yeah. I have been in shows where there is that energy of collaboration, where the creative team asks actors what they think about the show.

[14:10] Aaron Albano: I think it's a really great—now, are you talking about like show me your tricks and let's add your tricks into the song, or are you talking about storytelling feedback?

[14:16] Mo Brady: When I was doing Allegiance, when I first got the workshop before we even got in the rehearsal room, the creative team just wanted us all to come over to somebody's house and read through the script. They had made some changes and they wanted some people to read it before we even started in rehearsal. Everybody else had done the show previously in San Diego, but myself and another woman were the new people in the cast. So they invited all of us to just listen. It was fascinating. Afterward, Stafford, our director, was like, "If you guys have any thoughts, please reach out." And I had a lot of thoughts, and I reached out to my friend Telly, being like, "Yo, I am the new guy. Am I really able to call up Stafford and like say here's what's wrong with your show?"

[15:12] Aaron Albano: And Telly was like, "You actually can. This creative team is so collaborative. This creative team is so welcoming for feedback that you actually probably could." Up to that point, I had been in rooms where it was very much like the Smash room, where it was like the acting company is the acting company and you do whatever is on the page, but you have no creative license or creative input to what's going on. That right there might be changes, but those are happening in another room. They're being decided on in the room and then someone's giving you pages and saying, "Here is something." Yeah, we're the guinea pigs. And so I emailed Stafford. He wanted to make a call. We talked for like an hour and a half, and the first day at rehearsal, it was wild. The amount of my feedback he took into the script, my mind was blown. I don't think this exists in Smash because the room that is set up and the creative team that is set up on this show is not a collaborative team.

[16:13] Mo Brady: The fact that it's more jarring when Rebecca comes in is more a statement on the creative team than it is on the star.

[16:20] Aaron Albano: Do you think that the series has an ideal Marilyn in its head right now? Do you think it's trying to say that Karen would be the best Marilyn or Ivy would be the best Marilyn or Rebecca would be the best Marilyn? Is it trying to stack the deck?

[16:31] Mo Brady: Huh? I think here's where I go. Here's what I think. I think the series thinks Karen is the ideal Marilyn in part because of what I said before about it describing all theater people as heathen, alcoholic, competitive, sure. And when we see Derek's fantasy sequences or whatever those things are, whatever it is, when he's like, he sees Karen as Marilyn, and so that's like the end goal. We see what he's imagining in the end; we see his ideal future for the show.

[17:10] Aaron Albano: See, I would say the show at this point, I agree with you absolutely. Karen is the ideal Marilyn, speaking as a person who doesn't know the rest of the show. If we're fast-forwarding to the end of the show, if we do know that and though it's the series as a whole, I think who we end up with is the ideal Marilyn, but she wasn't ready yet.

[17:30] Mo Brady: That I'll give you.

[17:34] Aaron Albano: He loved you say I think a spoiler on Smash.

[17:47] Mo Brady: Alright, special thanks to Aaron Albano for joining us for this mini-series. Joining us for this mini-series, that is saying it lightly. You are the life's blood, the dragon heart.

[17:59] Aaron Albano: Wow.

[18:00] Mo Brady: Behind Smash'ed. I'm so honored. Thank you.

[18:04] Mo Brady: The Ensemblist was produced today by me, Mo Brady, and by me, Aaron Albano.

[18:09] Aaron Albano: True that. To keep up to date with next week's recap, please be sure to watch episode 12 of Smash entitled "Publicity."

[18:16] Mo Brady: Oh yeah, this is the one that you're on.

[18:20] Aaron Albano: We get to watch. We get to watch air.

[18:23] Mo Brady: Keep stay with us, folks. You could find Smash episodes on either the NBC app or at NBC.com.

[18:30] Aaron Albano: Are you enjoying the Smash mini-series? Let us know by leaving a review on Apple Podcasts, especially if you're clamoring for us to recap season 2.

[18:34] Mo Brady: You can also download previous episodes of Smash or find other great Ensemblist mini-series wherever you get your podcasts or at BroadwayPodcastNetwork.com, and be sure to follow The Ensemblist on Instagram or at our website where we share the stories of talented artists working in Broadway ensembles. Thanks for listening, guys. Until next time.

[18:56] Aaron Albano: Next time. Until next time when it's Aaron.