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[0:00] Mo Brady: You're listening to The Ensemblist, the only podcast that shows you Broadway from the inside out. Welcome, I'm Mo Brady.

[0:21] Mo Brady: One of the loudest and most vibrant conversations in the theater industry over the last decade has been about racial representation. Throughout dressing rooms and across casting tables, there's a persistent desire to see more diverse stories on stage. And yet, the racial diversity of our country isn't reflected in the racial diversity of our Broadway performers. I've been curious what it feels like for artists of color, and what their experience is with racial representation in the theater industry. Over the last decade, Julian DeGuzman has had a successful career, performing in what we might consider mostly Asian shows like The King and I and Miss Saigon, and performing in more diverse shows like Hello, Dolly! and Newsies. He joined me over the phone to talk about both of these experiences, and talk about if they felt different at all from his perspective. Here's our conversation.

[1:10] Mo Brady: Hey, would you tell me your name and where you're calling from today?

[1:23] Julian DeGuzman: My name is Julian DeGuzman, and I am calling from Virginia Beach, although I currently live in Harlem, but not currently.

[1:31] Mo Brady: Right. When did you move to New York?

[1:33] Julian DeGuzman: I first moved to New York August of 2011.

[1:37] Mo Brady: Have you felt like your opportunities to audition for roles are different, are equal, are less than more than your Caucasian counterparts?

[1:46] Julian DeGuzman: I would like to say I've had more opportunities, and I think that's generally what people would say, but I think it actually feels more of the same since I first auditioned. It still feels like this place where the only time there's really opportunity for my quote-unquote type is when there's a King and I or a Miss Saigon or an Allegiance that comes along every few years. And it seems like when those shows happen, that's the opportunity for a lot of people to say, oh, see, it's a good time for you. The thing that worries me the most, to be honest, is when Broadway comes back as an industry, I'm just worried that there's just going to be less opportunity as a whole for everybody. And then who does that hurt even more? Particular actors of color. We already had limited access to begin with, and then producers and investors pull austerity measures on the industry. I just get worried that those opportunities will be further and fewer between.

[2:43] Mo Brady: Can you tell me the first time you felt like you saw someone that looked like you on stage?

[2:48] Julian DeGuzman: The very first time I saw someone look like me on a stage was seeing Lea Salonga in concert when I was five years old. And I remember thinking to myself, oh, she's Filipino. This is kind of cool. But in terms of Broadway, to be honest, I didn't really see anybody growing up because first off, I lived across the country in California. My first Broadway show, for example, was Fosse. I didn't see any Asians in that show, but it was like I still got really excited seeing it. Tying my experience seeing Lea in concert and also getting really excited about theater and knowing that she did theater. I tied those two together and was like, theater's kind of cool. I kind of want to do this. But then part of that process is also as recently as seeing Aaron Albano in Newsies on the Tonys and being like, oh, there's a Filipino guy and he's fierce.

There are people like us. That's kind of a long roundabout way of pointing out the first time I saw someone that looked like me. I think like a lot of Asian Americans, we sort of have to tie our experiences together in order to reach this place of, oh, theater acting is what I want to do.

[3:49] Mo Brady: I'm intrigued that all the shows that you mentioned about auditioning for were Asian shows, shows with primarily Asian American cast. On the audition breakdowns, it often says speaking all ethnicities, really this part is open to anyone of any racial background. In your experience, does that mean that they're actually going to cast anyone of any racial background? Or does that just mean that they're looking to audition them?

[4:12] Julian DeGuzman: There's a situation where I was at what we call colored calls, which are these like ethnic dance calls or like invited auditions. The majority of the people in the room were of colors. You know, you had your mix of Asian, Latino and black. And then there was one white guy and we're all auditioning together. They ended up hiring the white guy. It's hard not to think to yourself, did they just have hiring a white guy as their default? But let's see who we can get. In years past, it was something I would have focused on as a main barrier toward inclusion. I would frame the problem as like, we need to cast more people of color. And I think there has been some progress in that department. But what I feel to be the larger issue at hand instead of seeking versus casting is an active effort on the part of investors just to support and lift up those in the creative process to tell their stories.

I'd kind of like to point out the lack of stories produced portraying stories from diverse communities on Netflix and on TV. You kind of see a glimpse of that effort. But Broadway in particular, it's an industry that was built on white people performing feel-good stories that were kind of art forms that were plagiarized from black people, jazz and musical theater scores as a whole. What we're witnessing now is kind of a shift from that world of exclusivity to a more inclusive plethora of stories.

[5:32] Mo Brady: What is the experience like for you being in an all Asian American cast or a primarily Asian American cast versus one where you feel like you are in the minority? Is there a difference? Does it feel creatively different?

[5:45] Julian DeGuzman: There is a difference. For example, I've only done one show that was 95% Asian, which was The King and I. And then I also did Miss Saigon, which we all think of it as an all Asian show, but it's actually more of a United Nations thing. Asians make up a little bit more than half the cast, but then you have other people in the cast of all different backgrounds. I felt like doing The King and I in Miss Saigon and being surrounded by a cast that was predominantly Asian American, there are just certain things that you don't really have to explain. Sometimes in dressing room conversations, you vent and let off steam for certain situations. People automatically know what you're getting at, what you're talking about.

They're able to empathize a little bit easier because they live through those experiences as well versus I'm the minority or one of just a couple. It can be a little bit more isolating. You have to craft and monitor your language and your demeanor towards people because you don't know exactly how they will respond or take it or they just might not get it. For example, the last two years doing Hello Dolly both on Broadway and on tour, I was the Asian. Keep in mind, this is on the heels of doing Miss Saigon, which like I pointed out, was like a United Nations of ethnicities. And it was an interesting experience going from Miss Saigon to an experience like Hello Dolly where I sort of became the face of the race.

I don't know. Maybe that idea is self-proclaimed in my own way. But there was one instance where somebody asked me, hey, Julian, where can I find good Chinese food in New York? And I was like, oh, I'm so sorry. I mean, no. But see, that's the thing is like in my mind, I'm like, well, yeah, I actually know some really good places. So I could give you some recommendations. But I'm just curious as to like, why did you automatically assume I would know? I had another person ask me, so I've actually never met a Filipino before. I don't know what Filipino culture is. In the moment, I was just like, whoa, I'm just so taken aback because that's sort of like my leading point of identity being Filipino, especially where I come from.

And for somebody to straight up be like, I don't know what that is was like on the one hand, I'm shocked. But on the other hand, I'm like, thank you for meeting me with curiosity. And for that reason, I'm happy to explain to you. These instances of these dressing room conversations were with people in the theater industry, but weren't necessarily about the experience of being a artist of color. You know, sometimes they can be sometimes it might be a conversation venting about the way someone has spoken about a topic that might be particularly sensitive and personal to you. Any interaction among two people where there's trust and there's frustration about something or joy or whatever, where you're just trying to explain versus I would have to explain someone who is not of the shared background, a little bit more context and history and cultural references. All of that labor gets taken out when you're with somebody who has just lived your experience, somebody who just gets it and I don't have to do the work for them.

[8:48] Mo Brady: I'm intrigued by this phrase face of the race, especially in your experience in Hello, Dolly that you mentioned in the show in general, but particularly when you're going on for a role that has primarily been performed by Caucasian actors. Does it feel important that a person of color is playing these traditionally white roles? That's something you even think about in those moments.

[9:11] Julian DeGuzman: So the very first time I had the opportunity to go on for Barnaby was in Chicago in November 2018. I remember just being so focused on doing the role, doing the work and really wanting to do a good job and share myself in the role. But it wasn't until really after the fact where I actually sat down and thought about, wait a minute, I don't remember an actor of color in particular go on for this role. That's actually kind of cool. And it was a little

[9:39] Mo Brady: Pat on the back moment, but it was more of just like a simple acknowledgement of, oh, that's great. But yeah, I didn't go into my first performance being like, I'm the first. I think that kind of would take away from my focus and doing the work. Everybody just wants to do a good job in the role and share a piece of themselves in the work. But then after the fact, being able to recognize that was actually pretty cool. I want to ask you about doing shows that I would consider part of the Asian American theater canon, shows like The King and I or Miss Saigon. When you're working on a show like that, does it feel like you're sort of checking a box off of like, oh, well, I'm an Asian American actor.

So I got to do Miss Saigon at some point. And I got to do King and I at some point. Is there sort of like, I'm earning my stripes as it were? That's something I would think about when I first joined the industry. And I would hear older actors that I would work with talk about their experiences doing Miss Saigon back in the day or doing King and I back in the day. Doing Miss Saigon on Broadway felt a little bit in a way like, cool, I've joined the club. There is a little bit of that. And then there's also a little bit of the idea of like, okay, so I've done the Asian shows. I've done a King and I. I've done a Miss Saigon. Great. What's next? I think that also speaks to the respect that I have for the struggle that a lot of Asian American actors and actresses who went before me, that speaks to the progress that has been made.

On the one hand, I'm like, that's awesome. I'm glad that progress has been made since those days. And then there's also the part of me that's like, progress just isn't fast enough. I just, I want there to be more for all of us. I'm interested in this idea that most of your professional experience, at least your Broadway national tour experience has been in shows that are not primarily Asian American shows. I'm thinking about like Newsies and Dolly versus Saigon. Asian shows, are they like more of a low hanging fruit and then level to rise above that is like be in a show where race isn't really part of the conversation? What I get that you're asking is that like, do we see the King and I's and the Saigon's as boxes to check off?

And then those are stepping stones to being recognized in other capacities. Maybe not so much for ethnicity, but for ability. Yeah, it's like, well, he's not good for an Asian American actor. He's just good, right? Yeah, absolutely. That's something that I actually do struggle with. I have to check where that might speak to my own crab mentality, which can exist when you're part of a demographic that has been historically underrepresented in an industry. Sometimes there is that thought of, I want to be better than my own kind. I want to do more than just this. Going back to my experience in Miss Saigon, that was a very, very interesting experience for me. That show ran for a year and probably for half of that time.

Sometimes it would cross my mind, am I only here because I'm Asian? Are we all just here because we fit the mold? I had to remind myself, no, there are tons of people who are of my demographic who would love to be in this position. But I would struggle with the thought that this show in particular, nobody on the creative team was Asian. And so it felt sometimes on the spectrum of Asian minstrelsy in that I'm like living up to a stereotype on stage. I went through a process after that of reflecting on that experience. There are so much that came from that. Yes, it provided me and a lot of my friends jobs. I am eternally grateful for that. And it gave me the opportunity to be an understudy for the first time.

And I don't know without the show if I ever would have had that opportunity. It was an important opportunity for all of us. It was also an important opportunity for us to examine whether or not there are stories by us that are written for us. So we're not depending on these shows that come every once in a blue moon. And that's important to lift up and give voice to perspectives that it's not just an Asian story that's through the lens of European guys. Everybody who has done A Miss Saigon has had varying degree of experiences doing that show. Some people loved it. Some people felt it was problematic. For me, it was all of those things. I will never have a backstage experience that was as much fun as that.

I had so much fun sharing a dressing room with such a multicultural cast with different perspectives, people from all over the world, but people who felt like they can be themselves in a workplace. On stage, it was a little more complicated, but it was such a range of experiences for everyone involved with that show.

[14:18] Julian DeGuzman: If you could go back to your younger self moving to the city for the first time in 2011, and tell yourself something about what the experience as an Asian American performer would be like for the next decade, what's something you wish you would have known? I wish that I would be able to tell myself that it's okay to emotionally process things. The industry as a whole is built on performance and performing and putting on a certain emotion. What I didn't anticipate before I came into the industry was just how emotionally taxing it could be. Auditioning, grinding, doing the eight show a week schedule, which can be a very grinding experience. I wish that I could tell my younger self it is okay to tend to your mental health.

Before I moved to New York, I remember being so excited about the glitz and glamour of Broadway and just wanting to be a part of it. But also at that time, I didn't know a lot of people who went to therapy. I didn't know a lot of people who did things like mindfulness. What was that? It's just as important, if not more important, to be grounded and to tend to your mental health because it's important to have a strong emotional foundation before going into emotionally volatile labor that is performing. Mo, you also had a question about seeking versus casting. I feel like I just want to add one more thing to that. You know, before all of this went down, I felt like there was a point where I would hear multiple people telling me, oh, it's a good time to be a minority on Broadway.

I've also heard it like in TV film, it's a good time to be a minority in TV film. Whether that's well-intentioned or not, I think it kind of speaks to an anxiety that people have that a space that has served their demographic for so long, which is predominantly white, Broadway has historically been a white space. The idea that some of that space has been encroached upon with an effort to be more inclusive and to be more diverse. When people say things like, oh, like it's a good time for you because there's Hamilton, which they may be well-intended, it doesn't really acknowledge the broader situation, which is just how seriously underrepresented we are, not just as actors, but as playwrights, creatives as a whole.

One thing that I've thought about as to why that may be the case, where that intention is coming from, I think generally speaking, actors do feel a lot of anxiety about the fact that there aren't a whole lot of jobs on Broadway, off Broadway. People feel like they're constantly fighting for visibility and to be seen. And I think because there has been a small effort on the part of producers to be more inclusive and to lift up stories, it's perceived as sharing the pie with everyone else when everyone just wants to keep their own pie slice. In my mind, in sort of my Broadway utopia that I think about, honestly, I think of a bigger pie where everybody is able to share their stories and be a part of the process of storytelling.

Part of that goes to the idea of maybe the people, the actors, the creatives themselves should have a little bit more of a say in decision making when it comes to deciding which shows to put on, rather than just a small group saying, okay, this is the show that we want to put on. Why not give a little bit more voice to the people who will be building that content in terms of the stories that we want to lift up, the creative people that we want to celebrate and give opportunity to. I think a form of that is like maybe a little bit more of breaking this system up into collectives of creatives and actors and playwrights and composers and all these people to come together to decide, okay, we would like these ideas to be lifted up and to be given a platform.

So it's sort of like a, as Andrew Yang calls it, like a trickle-up economics of giving that economic power to all people so we can include everybody within the decision-making process of what kind of theater we want to create, what kind of theater environment do we want to encourage, what stories do we want to tell.

[18:34] Mo Brady: Special thanks to Julian DeGuzman for sharing his stories with us today. The Ensemblist was produced today by me, Mo Brady, Anna Alfeid, and Jackson Klein. There are two great ways you can be helping The Ensemblist right now. One is by leaving us a rating and review on Apple Podcasts, and the other one is by becoming a Patreon member, which you can do at patreon.com slash The Ensemblist. Please follow us wherever you listen to podcasts, whether that be on Spotify, on Apple Podcasts, or at our home of Broadway podcast network at bpn.fm. You can also follow us on Instagram, where we share all of our latest episodes. Thanks for listening. Until next time.