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[0:00] Aaron Ahlbano: You're listening to Smash'ed from The Ensemblist, the only podcast that shows you Broadway from the inside out. I'm Aaron Ahlbano.

[0:11] Moe Brady: And I'm Moe Brady.

[0:13] ♪ Musical number: "Would I Lie To You?" — performed by Eurythmics ♪

[0:31] Aaron Ahlbano: Welcome back, listeners, to our tongue-in-cheek recap of what is television's most detailed depiction of the theater industry. And yes, we're still talking about Smash, the NBC series that chronicled the creation of a Broadway musical and all of the drama that ensued along the way. We've been going back episode by episode to see how this supposed love letter to Broadway has held up over the past decade. So in each podcast episode, we're looking to find the answers to these three questions: Did it represent Broadway then? Does it represent Broadway now? And is it any good? So let's dive in and talk about episode 2 of season 2, The Fallout. Aaron, give us the stats.

[1:07] Aaron Ahlbano: The Fallout premiered on February 5th, 2013, immediately after the premiere episode. It was written by Julie Rottenberg and Eliza Zuritski, whose previous work we saw in the season 1 episodes Let's Be Bad and The Movie Star, and was directed by Craig Zisk. Now here's a weird thing: viewership for this episode was 4.45 million, down from 4.48 in the previous episode, which was an hour ago. I guess 30,000 people collectively turned off their TVs after hour 1. We had three featured songs in this episode: one cover of the Eurythmics' Would I Lie to You? and two original songs by two different musical theater composers. The first by then-up-and-comer duo team Pasek and Paul called Caught in the Storm, sung by Catherine McPhee, and the second by our home team of Mark Shaman and Scott Whitman called They Just Keep Movin' the Line, sung by Megan Hilty.

[1:59] Moe Brady: And what happens in this episode, Mo?

[2:02] Aaron Ahlbano: Eileen summons her bruised songwriting team to attend the American Theater Wing Gala, but Julia can barely get out of bed, let alone put on cocktail attire. However, when Julia hears from Marie Testa, who heard from Jackie Hoffman, who heard from Cheyenne Jackson, who heard from Harvey Fierstein that she and Tom will be presenting at the gala, even though it's a lie that Tom made up on the street, she realizes she has to attend. In addition to Bombshell being put on ice, Derek gets fired from The Wiz, not only because he shagged a couple of actresses but because of five additional dancers who are accusing him of sexual harassment. One of them, Daisy, serves Derek the tea in front of Schnippers, saying, "You don't get it, you're a big-shot director, you're in a position of power from the minute you wake up in the morning, and you don't treat that power with respect."

Derek starts second-guessing his serial seducing in a dream sequence set to the Eurythmics, What I Lie To You. Ivy's considering leaving the business as she's now going in for parts that she would have passed on two years ago, but running into a drunken Derek on a stoop, he leaves her with one nugget of wisdom: "You weren't my Marilyn, but what do I know?"

[3:07] Aaron Ahlbano: Karen Cartwright hunts down the young and own-composing team of Jimmy Collins and Kyle Bishop. Half the team, a twink named Kyle, is eager to collab with Karen. But while his songwriting partner Jimmy is cute enough to go to Greenpoint for, he is anything but agreeable. Even her attempts to wow Jimmy with an impromptu performance of one of his songs drives him away. When confronted, Jimmy retorts that he doesn't need any help to make it big. However, he decides the next day that he'll give it a go with Karen for Kyle's sake. The American Theatre Wing gala becomes an embarrassment for the Bombshell crew when Tom gets caught in his lie about presenting, and Eileen is asked to leave by the league president.

But in the moment, she decides to leave the industry with a parting shot to remember: an announcement that Bombshell is coming to Broadway this season, followed by Ivy Lynn giving a stunning rendition of a never-before-heard tune called They Just Keep Moving the Line.

[4:03] Moe Brady: Please give me some direction, 'cause they just keep moving the line.

[4:36] Aaron Ahlbano: The writing for the new cast hasn't quite found its footing. What is Kyle more than Kyle the Twink? What is Jimmy more than Jimmy the Angry Composer? What is Ana Vargas other than a roommate who plays piano? Like none of these characters have really been drawn out yet. I'm good that we don't really know who Ana Vargas is, but you're right, with Kyle and Jimmy, I'm like we're being expected to invest in them far sooner than I feel like they've earned. There's a sympathy that's being asked of us for Kyle, which I mean, we can get to Jimmy in a while, but the fact that Jimmy's so confrontational and just unagreeable for no apparent reason, literally just a chip on his shoulder for no reason, the Jackist of Jack Kellys. I guess in that way we get on Kyle's side just for sheer sympathy, but it's not enough, at least yet.

[5:39] Moe Brady: The other thing that is standing out to me is just how many outdoor shoots we are doing. It's like there was a meeting at NBC and the president of NBC was like, "We need to see this in New York, more New York," and so they're like, "We're going to do outdoor shoots. We're going to do all New York. You're going to be outside Amy's Bread. Everyone's going to always have coffee at the Red Tables in Times Square. We're going to be at Bond 45, we're going to be at the Braille Building. We are going to be outside all of the time." No matter how difficult it would really be to shoot these in Times Square, they're shooting all the time in Times Square, which I'm not really mad about because if you want the energy of New York, we've spent most of our time in the fake rehearsal room in the fake theater.

We've been indoors except for maybe those scenes that happen on 43rd Street in front of the New York Times Building, which they're pretending is a rehearsal space opposite from the Lyric. There's a doubling down of like, "Middle America, you want to see Broadway, well here's New York."

[6:51] Aaron Ahlbano: Totally, I would agree with that. I sort of felt like one of the 30,000 who turned off their TV for a second because I thought the premiere was so strong, and then I felt like we got to a slump of like, "Alright, we're getting lost on what this show is again." The amount of like, for lack of a better reference, Will and Grace sitcom energy between the miscommunication of Tom and Julia. Maybe it's because I associate Debra Messing with Grace so powerfully in my head. She's so good at those moments. Debra Messing is so good at playing Grace and having that sort of Grace energy. I think when we see her, even though she's not playing Grace, you're like, "Oh, there you are, Peter," especially when she's like, "Can't get out of bed because she's oppressed." Will slash Tom is trying to get her out of bed to do anything.

[7:45] Moe Brady: I saw this episode, this was season 3, where she's about to get the slideshow out because Woody Harrelson just dumped her. It punched me out of the story. For me, that moment was the Eurythmics cover. It's like, "Oh no, cool, it's a cool idea that Derek is in the bar and Ivy and Karen are wearing black dresses with pink heels." Daisy's there too, although I'm not sure how anyone in middle America recognized that that was the same girl that met him outside of Schnippers.

[8:21] Aaron Ahlbano: Also, it was Bruno Malley, his agent.

[8:24] Moe Brady: Bruno Malley was in the number?

[8:27] Aaron Ahlbano: Yeah, it's the first four.

[8:30] Moe Brady: I totally missed that.

[8:33] Aaron Ahlbano: He made no passes at, and yet he has this idea in his head that she's coming for him, I guess. That also felt like a step back of like, we were doing so well. We were all rooting for you, Smash. We were all Tyra, and this number was a misstep in one of our top models.

[9:00] Moe Brady: Let's talk about these songwriting teams. First off, I like the songs. I think these are good songs. Again, you'll always have me buy in when they're contextual, when they're good in driving the story, emotional or literal, and both of these songs do that very well. What I think is so interesting is that in season one, we had all original songs by the Hairspray team, Mark Shaman and Scott Whitman, and we had one songwriting team on screen. We had Tom and Julia, and we had two songwriting teams and sort of this mix of old sound plus new sound. Most, if not all, of the Tom and Julia songs are written by Shaman and Whitman, and yet the Jimmy and Kyle songs are written by a number of people, like you said, this one is written by Pasek and Paul.

It's hard not to put the careers of Shaman and Whitman on Tom and Julia, and the career of Pasek and Paul onto Jimmy and Kyle. Mark Shaman and Scott Whitman, who are very established in this industry, Broadway history walks with those two. In that same way we're supposed to think that of Tom and Julia, we're just seeing literally in their living rooms, so they're less renowned in our viewing of this world. And then at the same time, what was this, 2013?

[10:21] Aaron Ahlbano: 2013.

[10:21] Moe Brady: 2013, Pasek and Paul were very new to the scene.

[10:24] Aaron Ahlbano: Yeah, it was like a Christmas story.

[10:28] Moe Brady: Yeah, Dear Evan Hansen doesn't exist yet. Greatest Showman doesn't exist yet. They are some of the newcomers that are now entering this industry.

[10:40] Aaron Ahlbano: Yeah, it feels like it's trying to draw a comparison between Pasek and Paul and Whitman and Shaman, and yet, that comparison isn't necessarily real either.

[10:50] Mo Brady: It's not. I mean, it is, but it isn't because they're not competing with each other. I don't think there'll ever be a time where Julia and Tom and Jimmy and Kyle are facing off the way we've seen Karen and Ivy face off, for lack of a better example. Like, this competition isn't as direct, but I think this is sort of a backseat, passive competition that the industry places on these people. Does that make sense? I do think there's a theme of this episode about the industry moving forward and the industry changing. Ivy's last song, "They Just Keep Moving the Line," is all about that. It's all about, like, we've been here, but now things are changing around us, and I can't keep up. As we saw from all of Season 1 and leading to here, Ivy's having her kind of soul-searching moment.

She doesn't know what to do next. I think it's really true. I mean, you put Ivy next to her mom, Lee Conroy, and you're like, those are two pretty comparable talents. You can imagine that 20 years ago, 30 years ago, Ivy Lynn would have been a big Broadway star. And yet, because the line keeps moving, because the industry keeps asking new things of people, what would have made her a Broadway star in 1980 isn't the same thing that's going to make her a Broadway star in 2013. It's like the quadruple threatness of being an ensemble actor. Oh, yeah, yeah, totally. Like, the industry keeps moving, and if you can't keep up, that's when we have our crisis moment. If she had lived in this time before, she may be a big Broadway star. She has all the reason to be.

[12:35] Aaron Albano: Yeah, but what's nice about her journey in this episode is that I think we get it when she has that scene with Julia in the living room, where they both are like, you have to love it, or else, get out of here. Right. We see that with the fantastic Annaleigh Ashford cameo. I love that they brought back a character we haven't seen since the pilot of the series. Right. To be this what might have been moment for Ivy, right? I mean, first off, Annaleigh Ashford is so freaking perfect and can do no wrong. She's great. She's so great. She can do whatever she wants. But the idea that we're seeing what Ivy could have been if she hadn't booked the first reading of Bombshell. Maybe she would have quit and she'd have a guest house, you know? Here's an honest question about Lisa McMahon, played by Annaleigh Ashford. Do you think that was her genuinely being happy out of the business? Or do you think she was projecting to her competition? The grass is always greener, baby.

[13:41] Mo Brady: It links to Sam's question, right? When he asks Ivy, what would you do if you couldn't do this? Which is like every actor's least favorite question, right? What would you do if you can't dance anymore? It's the worst question because it's like both. I need to think about this as the only option or else it won't manifest itself to become true. And there's tons of things I could do. I could do lots of things. I will create a stationary business. But I think in the trajectory of Ivy's journey in this, I think we can assume that Lisa McMahon was genuinely joyous making stationary because she had achieved a happiness greater and a joy greater than she did when she was in the business literally months ago because the last time we saw her was auditioning for the workshop of Bombshell.

[14:40] Aaron Albano: Yeah, she's created a successful business in like the last six months. I know, which sure. I think that's where Lisa and Ivy are different though, is because we've grown with Ivy and we've seen Ivy. Ivy wouldn't be happy doing that because where she is happy is on the stage. And we get to see that come to Jesus moment when they ask her to sing, "They Just Keep Moving the Line." And she's just grateful to perform. There's no ulterior motive and it's the first time we've ever seen her interact with this team and interact with this industry. She does it out of the joy of performing with no strings attached and just happy to be singing. And I think that's where we see this like, Ivy's not gonna quit.

[15:24] Mo Brady: Is that why this performance of "They Just Keep Moving the Line" is so powerful? Like, is that why it feels like when I look back at the series, it's one of the most memorable moments to me? And watching it again, I was like, it's just a black dress, her hair doesn't look great. And yeah, something about the sort of resonance of the story that she's telling makes it feel like a top five smash moment to me.

[15:53] Aaron Albano: Absolutely. No question. It's a great song, A, because it's a great song, B, because it's a great singer, C, because it speaks in the beautiful musical theater Broadway way that we know is good storytelling. It's speaking to the moment in front of us. It's speaking to the moment. It's speaking to the moment of a character. It's also speaking to a moment in the story. It is speaking to something very specific. And yet it is also speaking to a very relatable feeling.

[16:24] Mo Brady: Yeah, I was watching this is gonna sound so stupid. I was watching the Cars trilogy recently.

[16:31] Aaron Albano: Yeah, you were.

[16:31] Mo Brady: And yo, I slept on that trilogy. Because that trilogy is literally about what we're talking about. It's literally about watching a character's journey from the beginning of their career to the peak of their career, to having to transition to something else. And I was like, yo, Cars is reading me. It was so and I was living and that's the journey of "They Just Keep Moving the Line." Because they do. Whoever they are, they do. And that's just a fact of not even our just our industry, but all industries.

[17:12] Aaron Albano: Yeah. Being a technician at something that you love. And making it your job, making it your vocation means making it your livelihood. When you have when your livelihood changes around you, you don't know what else to do. And so you examine just how much you love that livelihood. And if you can adjust with the times you stand a chance. One thing that's very apparent in Derek's perspective of this same industry, like we've talked about this, we've talked about his womanizing garbage for many, many an episode.

[17:47] Mo Brady: Yes.

[17:48] Aaron Albano: And this is the episode where we realize he just thought this was how it was. Literally is so systemically brainwashed that he thought this type of behavior was genuine connection. And it takes Mara Davies Daisy to be like, yo, nah, do you really think that? You're nuts. Derek has a mental breakdown after this whole.

[18:14] Mo Brady: Because he thinks that these women are playing the same game as he is, right? Women in the business may date him or sleep with him. But it's because they're on the same level. And what Daisy is saying is that they're not on the same level. The reason the women are playing this game with you is because you are at a higher level than they are. And in order to get what they want, they feel like they have to do this.

[18:42] Aaron Albano: Yeah, he doesn't understand that power dynamic. And when it's shown to him in a mirror so vividly in front of Schnippers of all places, like it is where the truth bombs come, man. That's where the 41st and eighth is where all the truth bombs happen.

[19:01] Mo Brady: His worldview has changed. His worldview is rocked his world. And he doesn't know how to adjust because he hasn't known anything else.

[19:11] Aaron Albano: Well, he's also at a pretty shitty place. He just lost two jobs and his manager just let him go, right? Like, like, he wasn't really maybe in a place where he could hear this message. But when basically he's lost everything, and he's trying to figure out why grasping at straws, it's the first time that he's able to hear this message.

[19:32] Mo Brady: He's he's able to hear it because this is the direct reason as to why. It could be a smash hearing where he hears it. And then the next episode, he'll totally unhear it. But in this episode, it feels like he's heard it.

[19:46] Aaron Albano: Yes, the smash hearing, as evidenced by Ivy and Derek's drunken scene on the stoop. It's a little bit of a quick fix for me. But because especially when she's like, I don't think you're a monster. I'm like, nah, we need to see him not be a monster before we can say that he's not a monster.

[20:07] Mo Brady: Well, sure. Yeah. And we never saw any of the good parts of Ivy and Derek's relationship. That was never part of the story that Smash showed us about the two of them, right? We I mean, we did, but they were involved in Marilyn. And I think maybe that's what we're supposed to take from Derek. And the flaw in Derek is that he is such a quote unquote, artist that he cannot separate the art from life.

[20:44] Mo Brady: To keep up to date with next week's recap, be sure to watch season two, episode three of Smash entitled "The Dramaturge." Oh my gosh, I can't wait. You can find Smash episodes on either the NBC app or on NBC.com.

[20:56] Mo Brady: The Ensemblist was produced today by me, Mo Brady.

[20:59] Aaron Albano: And by me, Aaron Albano. There are two great ways you can be helping The Ensemblist right now. One is by leaving us a rating review on Apple Podcasts.

[21:06] Mo Brady: And the second is by becoming a Patreon member. You can do that at patreon.com slash The Ensemblist. Please subscribe to The Ensemblist on Apple Podcasts, follow us on Spotify, or you can listen to all of our episodes at bpn.fm.

[21:20] Aaron Albano: And be sure to follow The Ensemblist on Instagram because things are changing all the time.

[21:24] Mo Brady: Or are they? Or are we in a holding pattern for the next nine months?

[21:29] Aaron Albano: Maybe. Let's find out.

[21:31] Mo Brady: Let's find out. Thanks for listening, guys.

[21:33] Aaron Albano: Until next time.