This transcript was automatically generated and might contain errors.

[0:00] Mo Brady: You're listening to The Ensemblist, the only podcast that shows you Broadway from the inside out. Welcome, I'm Mo Brady.

[0:21] Mo Brady: One of the loudest and most vibrant conversations in the theater industry over the last decade has been about racial representation. Throughout dressing rooms and across casting tables, there's a persistent desire to see more diverse stories on stage. And yet, the racial diversity of our country isn't reflected in the racial diversity of our Broadway performers. I've been curious what it feels like for artists of color, and what their experience is with racial representation in the theater industry. Today's guest is Ann Sanders. Currently in the Broadway company of Frozen, where she originated the role of Queen Iduna, she's had a Broadway career that's spanned over two decades, from playing Belle in Beauty and the Beast to playing Christmas Eve in Avenue Q. She joined me over the phone to talk about her experience as an Asian American artist, one who has played roles both traditionally played by Asian actors and Caucasian actors. Here's our conversation.

[1:29] Mo Brady: Hi, would you introduce yourself and tell me where you're calling from today?

[1:32] Ann Sanders: Hi everybody, I'm Ann Sanders, and I live in Forest Hills, New York, just about 30 minutes outside of Manhattan.

[1:39] Mo Brady: I'm wondering what you remember as the first time you saw someone who you felt looked like you on stage. If it was in a musical, in a concert, maybe it was a movie or a TV show, someone that looked like you in the performing arts.

[1:53] Ann Sanders: Sure. I'm thinking of Lea Salonga immediately. I saw her singing, and prior to Lea, you know, I hadn't seen anyone. After I experienced her talent, I thought, okay, well, if there's one, maybe there are others. I sort of subconsciously gave myself permission to fall in love with theater and to try to pursue it. And then beyond appearances, the first time I felt I saw someone who reflected me on stage was the first Broadway show I saw, which was Beauty and the Beast. I just immediately related to the character of Belle and was transported by the whole production. Her feelings of being an outsider, her relationship with her father, and her desire to travel the world. It was the first time that I saw me, the essence of me, in a character on stage, and I just never dreamed that later I would get the opportunity to step into her shoes.

[2:51] Mo Brady: Didn't you make your debut in Beauty and the Beast?

[2:53] Ann Sanders: I did. It was my Broadway debut, and significant to me in so many ways, but to this day, some of my closest friends are people I met in that show. It really, like, shaped who I am today, you know, just not as an actor, but also as a person.

[3:06] Mo Brady: Oh, gosh, let's unpack some of that. That's so fascinating. Okay. So when you saw the show, do you remember seeing people of color in it? And do you remember seeing anyone you thought was Asian American in the cast?

[3:20] Ann Sanders: I don't. I don't remember any of that. I think I was just so surprised with it being my first Broadway show, taking it all in. I knew I was in for seeing something special. In fact, you know, shh, don't tell anybody, but I had a little tape recorder in my purse. I'm gonna find it, because certainly I now have time, since I'm in the musical quarantine, to, like, find it somewhere. I remember thinking, oh, I know the music, but I want to hear all the dialogue. I recorded the whole show. I actually don't remember specifics of the people that were on stage. I just remember the feelings that I had connecting with them.

[4:00] Mo Brady: What time passed between you seeing the show and auditioning for the show for the first time?

[4:07] Ann Sanders: One of my first shows I auditioned for after college was Miss Saigon. And I got it, and they said, great, this production is happening in Stuttgart, Germany. And I was like, what? And they're like, yes, it's the same creative team, but we're going to go through all the German phonetics with you and everything. And I was like, oh, okay. I knew some people that were in the show, so I contacted them, and they're like, it's fantastic, you have to come, it's amazing. So I went, I was able to travel the world. I actually started out in the ensemble, and then I covered the role of Ellen, and then later took on the role of Ellen in Miss Saigon. And at that time, after that show closed, they were having auditions for Beauty and the Beast there in Stuttgart, Germany, which is just across the street.

So I auditioned for that and got it, and was able to do the whole show over there in German. So I know the whole show actually may be better in German. When an opening happened in Broadway, it was the same creative team, and they called and said, hey, we have an opening, would you like to come join? And I still remember being on the phone. I think I just was like covering it up, screaming, jumping up and down, because I didn't think that going to Germany would get me to Broadway.

[5:20] Mo Brady: That's fascinating. Okay.

[5:21] Ann Sanders: I think it was about three years.

[5:23] Mo Brady: How do you identify ethnically?

[5:26] Ann Sanders: The world sees me as an Asian American woman. And I have to say, I do identify that way. I'm of mixed race. My father was Polish, and my mom was Korean, Japanese. But in the world, everybody sees me as an Asian American woman. And I do move through the world that way. So I see myself as a mixed race woman.

[5:50] Mo Brady: Because already, even with Miss Saigon, I assume in the ensemble, you were playing an Asian character, and then you go to playing the token white female. What an interesting way to see that story, that you're experiencing it from both sides of its racial divide.

[6:05] Ann Sanders: It really was. And it surprised me, because that was really my first big professional gig. And it came about in an unusual way, in that the woman who was playing Ellen had to leave the show quite quickly for personal reasons. And so until they found someone, they were like, okay, and you just learned it. They took me to the hair salon. We kind of lightened my hair, they cut it. And they said, we're going to be holding auditions looking for somebody. But until then, would you like to do the role? And I was like, yes, absolutely. At the time, the actress playing Kim was Melinda Chua. And we looked quite different. And I was actually much taller than her. We had some production people from the States come.

They came backstage after seeing the show, and they were like, it really put an interesting spin because it seemed as though, while you guys don't totally resemble each other, it was almost like he was looking for Kim and found you. And that was that connection that he had to that. And so then when we saw each other in that confrontation scene in the hotel room, I remember we would just stand there for the longest awkward pause just taking each other and her seeing me for the first time and me seeing her for the first time and realizing what that meant.

[7:20] Mo Brady: I'll tell you that the first time I saw Miss Saigon live, a Japanese American actress played the role of Ellen. After listening to the show for so long, I thought that was a fascinating element to add to the story that it wasn't this Asian woman versus this white woman. They weren't necessarily each other's enemies as much as I had initially interpreted it.

[7:41] Ann Sanders: Exactly.

[7:42] Mo Brady: I want to ask you about playing Belle on Broadway, but through the door of King and I, because I remember when you went on for Anna in the King and I in the Lincoln Center Theater Revival, it was like front page of Playbill, a first Asian American actress to play Anna on Broadway. It was sort of buzz, and I remember feeling great about it as a lover of representation in our art form. Was that the experience that you had as Belle years before? Did anyone make a big deal that it wasn't a Caucasian actress playing Belle?

[8:16] Ann Sanders: It was interesting because I think part of that was in 2001, and I think social media wasn't as prevalent. Perhaps it didn't receive as much attention that way about it. I think also because it was Beauty and the Beast and it was a fictional story, not based on live events or facts, it seemed to be more accepted perhaps. Whereas when it was the King and I, even though Anna Leigh and Owens in real life was of mixed race, it seemed people were more surprised and shocked by that, that that would happen.

[8:53] Mo Brady: So it seems like the outside world was making a bigger deal about it with your King and I experience than your Beauty and the Beast experience. What about how it felt? Did it feel remarkable to be an Asian-American performer playing this French young woman?

[9:08] Ann Sanders: I was never trying to be naive about it, but I think because I came into it through the lens of working in Europe, there were times when I was over in Germany thinking, this is really quite remarkable. I'm an Asian-American woman speaking German, playing this French provincial girl in this town. I remember immediately thinking, wow, Europe is ahead of us on all of these fronts, that they're completely embracing all of this. That was what I was surrounded by. And that's what I came into New York with. And so to me, it was more significant that this was the first character that I really related to, the first Broadway show that I ever saw. It was only later when you start auditioning for other things that you started to see people putting you in categories or you allowing yourself to be put in different categories.

[10:03] Mo Brady: Sure, because one of your Broadway roles is playing Christmas Eve in Avenue Q.

[10:08] Ann Sanders: Right.

[10:23] Ann Sanders: To go audition for Christmas Eve, or I asked to be seen for Christmas Eve because I'd seen the show and was falling off the chairs dying laughing. I remember being told, oh, yeah, they don't want to see you. They don't want to see anybody playing Belle for that role. I remember thinking, oh wow. I know I relate to that character as well. Definitely so much of my mother that I brought to that and those situations and things that she would say. And so I thought, oh God, I got to be resilient here and I traipsed down to the open call and went through the whole open call process and that's how I got the show.

[11:00] Mo Brady: That's interesting. Do you feel like the reason that it was hard for you to get an appointment for that show had to do with race or perceived race, or is that more about types and characters and putting people in ingenue versus funny role boxes?

[11:14] Ann Sanders: I think it was a mix and I think it was, you know, I had just gotten to the city. Nobody knew who I was. So I think it was part of that and then the assumption of, oh, this Belle character seems different than Christmas Eve. And so I do think it was a mix and there are times where sometimes people will be like, well, her last name is Sanders. And, you know, I just think that's so interesting too. So perhaps, you know, maybe just from a resume seeing that as well. I really don't know, but sometimes I look back on those moments and think I'm just so grateful for them because it made me really solidify what I wanted to do and it could have been easy to be like, oh, okay, well forget it. But because the material was so good, I just thought no, I've got to keep trying.

[11:56] Mo Brady: I want to ask you about dressing room culture, particularly in shows that have primarily been Asian-American like The King and I. You said that you sort of move through the world as an Asian-American person. I'm wondering if it has felt different, easier, lighter, being surrounded by a group of performers who have a similar cultural experience as you or if that doesn't ring true for you?

[12:22] Ann Sanders: Being in a show with mostly Asian actors, there's an immediate recognition that it's special. It feels unique because it is so rare. Simultaneously, there's this great joy mixed with this responsibility to make sure you tell the story well because it is so rare. At the same time, there's kind of a shorthand that happens with us in that many of us have similar experiences growing up with our families and our culture and, you know, certain types of music or food or what have you. I have found that the same is true when it's reversed. For example, in The King and I, when the Caucasian actors are in the minority, the conversations that stem from those relationships, I mean, just added more compassion and greater understanding, you know, on both sides.

When we were talking about The King and I, it's Louis and Captain Orton and Sir Edward. They were like, whoa, this is what this feels like. There's just three of us and there's all of you guys and it was an embracing of all of those cultures and talents. It's special in both regards.

[13:27] Mo Brady: I'd like to ask you about Dear Evan Hansen. When it was announced that you would be joining the Broadway company, I don't remember hearing about another actress of color playing that role before. Is that right?

[13:37] Ann Sanders: You know, I think that that is correct. I do think that's right. How did the audition process happen for you for that role?

[13:46] Ann Sanders: It wasn't necessarily a role that wasn't open to all ethnicities, but it wasn't a role that we had seen anyone other than Caucasian actresses play on Broadway or on tour or Toronto at that point. That came about really interestingly because when I was doing If Then, I was working with Michael Greif and I remember walking back with him from some type of press event. We were just chatting about what else he was working on and there was just kind of this glimmer in his eye and I was like, whoa, what is this project? Because he seemed so excited about it, but like kind of suppressing it. Of course, that was him developing Dear Evan Hansen. So I remembered clocking that and thinking, oh, when this happens, I want to make sure I see it.

And I had just seen Dogfight and I knew of Pasek and Paul's music and I thought, okay, I need to see this. So I remember running down and I saw the last show at Second Stage on a Sunday night and that subway ride home, I was like, what did I just see? And sort of never thought anything else about it. And then later a call came that would I be interested in joining the Broadway company for this period of time? I was just completely floored and I jumped at the opportunity.

[15:00] Ann Sanders: I have to say that one day that, you know, the stage door at Dear Evan Hansen is incredible. The fans will wait there and wait to talk to us and share art and story. And there's this one day where, I mean, I'll never forget it. This woman was waiting at the stage door and she said, that's what it feels like, trying to be the perfect mom, to live up to all these expectations of other people, to feel like you're failing your children. And then most, she said, pressure that you feel as a minority, that everyone is watching you even more closely. You're desperately wanting it to be easier and better for your children. I was just completely struck because the actor playing my husband in the show, Ivan Hernandez, and I often spoke about that in our own family.

That idea that somehow we grasped onto, that we felt like we had to work harder, stay later, show up earlier. Now those are universal feelings. Everyone has those, but that it filtered through her in that specific way. And that she was able to articulate it to me so quickly after seeing the show. I'm just forever grateful she shared it with me because it sort of helped me appreciate my parents even more and what they were thinking about when I said, hey, I want to go into theater and the worry and the stress that they had. It wasn't just about, will you be able to take care of yourself? Will you be happy? There was a larger concern. I think absolutely. That was even unspoken from my mom. You know, we grew up in Chicago and I think one of the first Asian American news anchors was on Channel 7.

She would say to me, you know, why do you want to do theater? Why don't you do that? Look, there's somebody that looks like you doing that. She was gravitating toward that and I think subconsciously she was definitely worried for me, but they never said don't do this. So I was very lucky that way.

[17:48] Mo Brady: Isn't it remarkable that seeing someone do something gives us permission to do it ourselves or helps other people give us permission to do it ourselves?

[17:57] Ann Sanders: It is. It's hard to go after what we haven't seen yet, but we do have to keep fighting for that inspiration. Your resiliency in this industry is remarkable. It is no surprise that we at The Ensemblist will always champion someone who has found a way to be so successful in an industry that is so hard for so long. So you have my esteem in multiple ways.

[18:19] Mo Brady: I do want to ask you about the experience of being an Asian American performer in the Broadway industry over this amount of time. From the outside, we have made great strides in terms of representation and cultural conversations and seeing people of different backgrounds having their stories on stage. But like I said, I'm on the outside. Is it better? Is it much better? Is it completely better? Is it different but still not great? When you think back to your experiences booking Miss Saigon, being on Broadway for the first time in Beauty and the Beast and your experiences now, pre-coronavirus now, does it feel that different to you?

[18:48] Ann Sanders: I remember early on being in waiting rooms to audition and there was this great mix of people. However, it did seem very often that all the Caucasian actors were reading for one role and then all of us others lumped into one category to read for the one other role, which very often wasn't the lead. And it is getting better, Mo. I will say it's getting better. And I do want to say Disney has always been champions of this. I remember going through the whole audition process for Frozen and very often in the waiting rooms, you might guess, oh, who's reading for what role? And throughout that process, I never could figure out who was auditioning for what. They were completely open to all the possibilities.

Later, when the King and Queen became this interracial couple, I just love that one of the first images that our audience members get to see in Frozen is this completely diverse family. This King and Queen, trusted, loved by their community, and all of them are sharing in the love of the children. It really makes me happy that they kept themselves open to the possibilities and that it shook down that way. As actors, I feel like we need to recognize that we have power in speaking up and sharing vulnerable stories and things that connect us to the characters. And then if we're not right for something or if we're unable to do it, to go ahead and recommend somebody else, share in that information, and then for other people in power to actively seek out and welcome contributions from everybody.

Because it is getting better, but my hope is that we can make history right now by now making it an assumption for our younger generations that these opportunities are real. As much as I love having this conversation with you, that we won't have to be having these conversations later on, that it becomes an assumption.

[20:03] Mo Brady: Special thanks to Ann Sanders for joining us today. The Ensemblist was produced today by me, Mo Brady, Anna Alfeid, and Jackson Klein. There are two great ways you can be helping The Ensemblist right now. One is by leaving us a rating and review on Apple Podcast, and the other one is by becoming a Patreon member, which you can do at patreon.com slash The Ensemblist. Please follow us wherever you listen to podcasts, whether that be on Spotify, on Apple Podcasts, or at our home of Broadway Podcast Network at bpn.fm. You can also follow us on Instagram, where we share all of our latest episodes. Thanks for listening. Until next time.