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[0:01] Mo Brady: You're listening to The Ensemblist, the only podcast that shows you Broadway from the inside out.

[0:11] Mo Brady: Welcome, I'm Mo Brady.

[0:21] Mo Brady: One of the most defining factors of ensemble characters is how undefined they are on the page. Often, the performers who create these characters are left to their own devices to decide exactly who these characters are and how they fit into the greater story around them. So what happens when an ensemble character is intentionally surface level? Today, we hear from Jon Hoche, who created multiple ensemble characters in the Off-Broadway production of Soft Power. We spoke about both the creation of the musical and the creation of the roles he plays, and how to strive for truth in each character when a show is a musical within a play. Here's our conversation.

[1:00] Mo Brady: Hey, can you introduce yourself and tell us where you're calling from today?

[1:18] Jon Hoche: Hi, my name is Jon Hoche, and I am calling from good old Astoria, New York.

[1:24] Mo Brady: In Soft Power, you were in the ensemble and play multiple roles. Can you guide us through all of those roles really briefly?

[1:32] Jon Hoche: In the beginning, it's just kind of like a dancer and mover, and then I transition into a character named Tony Manero, who is a bit of a misogynist racist. And then I turn into a very angry Trump supporter at one point during a Hillary campaign gathering. And then I transition into probably one of my bigger roles is the Chief Justice, who sings an incredible song about the Electoral College and our voting process here. And then at the end of the show, which is really great, as does all the ensemble, we get to kind of be ourselves.

[2:06] Mo Brady: So let's talk about Election Night. Who is the Chief Justice?

[2:11] Jon Hoche: For the most part, he looks like a chief justice or, you know, a judge would in a courtroom. But he's kind of the living embodiment of the message of what our actual electoral process and specifically the Electoral College is. Because, to be honest, even before the show, I wasn't really quite sure what the Electoral College was. And now I have the pleasure of educating people on what that is, and it's kind of messed up and perhaps it should go away. That's a discussion that many people are having. But, yeah, I get to kind of deliver this schoolhouse rock kind of this is what the Electoral College is song. One of the things that I love about Election Night is that it kind of just lays the facts out as is. It allows the audience to put some perspective on it, but it's not necessarily commenting on what happens during the electoral process as much as explaining it in this kind of schoolhouse rock format.

[3:02] Mo Brady: Would you agree?

[3:03] Jon Hoche: Yes, I wholeheartedly would agree. That was very important to the creative team and also to myself that the whole show, for the most part, we don't want to necessarily comment on things. We just want to present them to a point where the audience can kind of be entertained and then, you know, almost like maybe laugh and then be like, oh, my gosh, that's that's real. That's why am I laughing? It's a little bit of feeding medicine with sugar in a way, I guess.

[3:29] Mo Brady: And for people who haven't had a chance to see the show or listen to the cast album, can you give some examples of that?

[3:35] Jon Hoche: For example, like in an electoral college, we start off and we sing this very kind of upbeat, very happy song about how we vote and how we get our candidates and everything like that. And then I go now on to college and we move into the electoral college and then it just becomes this like hardcore patter song. And maybe hardcore is the wrong word, but it's a you know, it's a very it's a very mouthy patter song where I'm just delivering the definition of what the electoral college is. And not many people know that and not many people know that people who are in the electoral college, they're supposed to vote how the state wants them to vote. But they can decide not to do that if they won't want to.

So particularly if a red state all of a sudden wanted to become a blue state, but the electoral college didn't want to change, then they don't have to. And then when you break it down even further, you know, it does go all the way back down to slavery. And that's an insane thing in this day and age that we're still keeping this thing around in media and everything like that. You know, everyone's like, oh, the electoral college, the electoral college, but they don't really know what it is. And to deliver it with a smile and be like, hey, this is what we're doing. And everyone would be like, oh, my gosh, because if you deliver something with a smile and pleasantly, people are more inclined to listen. So we kind of like lure them in with a smile and then let them make the decision for themselves.

[4:52] Mo Brady: When did you first start working on Soft Power?

[4:55] Jon Hoche: It's been a long journey, and I've been so blessed to be a part of it for a long time. I had just finished a show at Manhattan Theater Club called Via Gone right as that show closed. David Henry Hwang actually reached out to me on Facebook Messenger and was like, hey, I'm working on this thing and we're going to do a table read. And I'd love for you to come in and read for it. And I was awestruck. That's a pretty good Facebook message.

[5:17] Jon Hoche: Yeah. Yeah. Maybe the best I've ever gotten. That was close to right after the 2016 election. And I went into this reading. And at that point, scenes that didn't quite have a through line yet. But it's been a long, interesting ride because initially, you know, Soft Power was going to be more of a direct response to the King and I from more of an Asian perspective where President Hillary Clinton was going to be taught by a Chinese ambassador about gun violence and things like that. And that was all being written prior to the election. Then the election happened and it didn't go in Hillary's favor. So I remember hearing David saying this is a really terrible thing for our country, but it might be the best thing that happened to Soft Power because now we really have to focus in on what are the messages we're trying to say. And then it turned into this this incredible piece about what is it to be American? Is democracy still valid and things like that? So it's been quite a journey.

[6:12] Mo Brady: So how has the number Election Night changed throughout your process with the show?

[6:18] Jon Hoche: Election Night is maybe one of the few songs that hasn't evolved too much as the process of Soft Power was happening and made it all the way to its Off-Broadway production. There were minor things here and there where maybe we incorporated more of the ensemble in the call and responses. But for the most part, because the chief justice is delivering a very specific message, it didn't really change too much. And I know there was always talk of the song being cut from the show. And I know when we were in L.A. and in previews and everything, I'm like, oh, my God, they're going to cut my song. Oh, my God, I'm going to feel like a failure. But thankfully, it stayed around. And I think it's an important song to have in the show.

And when we were doing it in L.A., it was really interesting, too, because a lot of teachers would come up to me after the show and be like, when is a cast recording happening? Because I want to incorporate this into my curriculum when I'm when I'm teaching about American government. So I'm glad that the cast album is out and people can finally do that.

[7:15] Mo Brady: You referenced that the show in its initial stages was more of a direct response to King and I. However, numbers throughout the show seem to reference multiple sort of classic musicals. What classic musicals or classic musical songs were you guys talking about when you were rehearsing this specific number?

[7:33] Jon Hoche: For me, this one really harkens back to kind of like a Trouble in River City kind of thing. And as we were creating who the Chief Justice was, I always would, in the back of my head, reference the music man. So one thing you kept talking about is Schoolhouse Rock. And when I think about characters in Schoolhouse Rock, I think very surface. Probably you're not working on the character and talking about their backstory and what their favorite cereal is and how many siblings they have and their favorite color. Or are you? As a professional actor, how much of that backstory do you explore in a character that is intentionally more surface level?

[8:15] Jon Hoche: I've been blessed to have the opportunity to have to play multiple characters in productions. Usually when you're in the ensemble and you have multiple characters, a lot of times that one scene or that one musical number is all the character gets. So for me, my process usually is I think about each character and I think about how does this character move the plot forward. Is this character simply there to entertain the audience because a scene right before this was really intense and the audience needs to breathe? Or does this character need to inform the audience? So I'm always looking to what my relationship is with the audience and how am I helping them learn and how am I telling the story to them.

And then once you kind of figure out that, you also have to figure out what is the plane of existence that these characters are in. Is this high comedy or is this a very serious play or is their reality just a little bit askew from what ours is? And whatever that is, you have to find your truth and your honesty on that plane of existence. It is a musical within a play and I'm an actor playing an actor playing a part. So I have to find that reality and then once we kind of figure all that out, it's all about commitment and truth within that level of reality. So Soft Power is a musical within a play and you, John, are playing a Chinese actor in the future who is playing many roles including the Chief Justice. So does your Chinese actor in the future, does he have a name? Have you created that persona or are you only really looking at the characters through the final lens, the one that the audience sees?

[9:52] Jon Hoche: That was something that came up in a lot of conversations that we were having while we were putting the show together. When it came down to it, the most direct and clearest way to attack that situation was to simply just find the truth in the situation. To do the best job possible is what we're going for. So if you can kind of absorb that middle actor into your own self, it just becomes, let's just execute these roles the best as I possibly can. And make sure that I'm not ever commenting or playing for laughs. Just be as truthful as possible. Right, because one of the things that you're alluding to is that the specificity of ensemble characters is sort of the bottom of the totem pole in terms of creating a new musical.

I think a production ends up trusting in an ensemble member to be like, you got this, right? I think the best thing about ensemble work is that you're left up to your own devices to find the truth and make what's happening in the scenes as truthful as possible to support the show and the lead and the other ensemble members. I will say though, one of the most beautiful things about the process with the creative team of Soft Power was they never were too busy for anyone to have a question. And that is something that I find is not always the case with the ensemble in some shows. But we were always allowed to raise our hands and be like, hey, this doesn't really make sense to me or why exactly are we doing this? It was such a strong relationship with everybody and we really became a family. And that's why I think the show is so cohesive and strong is that we were all on the same page together.

[11:25] Jon Hoche: So I have one final question to ask you, which is about this final song in the show, Democracy Reprise, where earlier in our conversation you said you got to be yourself. So was the direction in that song to not be in the world of the musical within the musical, but just be in the musical Soft Power? We had a lot of conversations about that final song and that final moment. And it was a really kind of special thing because the show is 98 percent Asian-American or people from Asian descent. And we're singing the song about America and believing in America and believing in democracy and singing that we're not going to give up and we're going to keep fighting. And the fact also that most importantly, we're singing this lyric, this is America.

And we were given the opportunity to each kind of internalize that differently. And it did change show to show, person to person. A personal experience I had with it was I was just simply speaking to some folks after one of our shows. Personally, I'm half German, half Filipino. My mother is Asian, but my father is German. And the percentage of my Asian-ness came up in conversation. And that really affected me when I had to think, are these people thinking I'm not good enough or am I not good enough? And then I carried that to the next matinee that we had. And I was really emotional singing this is America, you know, and presenting myself. And I got really emotional in that performance because what that person thought, it didn't matter.

Because when it comes down to it, it's like I'm of mixed descent and that is what America is all about, really. And being able to sing this is America was the most beautiful, cathartic thing I could do the next day. And I think that's something beautiful about that song and everyone in that number is we are all American here and we're fighting for democracy.

[13:21] Jon Hoche: From my experience in the audience during that song, I was wildly uncomfortable. Wow. Because I felt really seen. To go from two hours beforehand where you're watching the action but not being looked at. Yeah. That was a long time to be looked at directly in the eyes. You know, it's a device that we use in musical theater a lot. We get the line of dancers in a chorus line. We get seasons of love in Rent. We get the timeline in Hamilton. Like it's a very familiar trope to line up everybody at the edge of the stage. Yeah. But you guys did it for a long time. And that's a long time to communicate with an audience outside of a character. And you're just trying to communicate as yourself, the artist. Is that what you're saying?

[14:07] Jon Hoche: Yeah. It's really having a conversation with people. The greatest thing about it is that the line is now blurred between audience member and actors on stage. And it's not about sitting back and watching a show. It's about having a conversation. And I think that's what great theater does. It starts conversations. And I think turning up the house lights a little bit so we can see the audience and the audience can see each other.

[14:34] Jon Hoche: Did that happen? Yeah. Gosh, that's even more uncomfortable. Yeah. So the house lights came up a little bit so the audience members could see each other if they wanted to look around. And they could have a conversation with us. You could find people in the audience who were uncomfortable. And you could find people in the audience that were really on board. You could find people who honestly were just waiting for the vows to happen so they could leave. These are things that happen when you kind of expose yourself and you kind of start this conversation as it were. And then most importantly, like a lot of times, we would see young kids or young minority kids, not just Asians, who don't normally see themselves represented on stage and to be like, oh, I'm not alone.

Look at what these people are doing and what they're talking about. And there's a chance for me if this can happen too. So there are a lot of things going on in that final number. But I think that's what makes it so powerful. You know, I'm incredibly thankful and honored to be a part of Soft Power. I think that it is a show and a creative team that pushed me to do more than what I'm comfortable doing, acting, singing, and the topics that we talk about. And I just thank them every day just for making me a better, not only performer, but a better human being.

[15:53] Mo Breeden: Special thanks to Jon Hoche for sharing his stories with us today. The Ensemblist was produced today by Jackson Klein and me, Mo Breeden. There are two great ways you can be helping The Ensemblist right now. One is by leaving us a rating and review on Apple Podcasts. And the other one is by becoming a Patreon member, which you can do at patreon.com slash The Ensemblist. Please follow The Ensemblist wherever you listen to podcasts, whether that be on Spotify, on Apple Podcasts, or at our home of Broadway Podcast Network at bpn.fm. And follow us on Instagram. Thanks for listening, guys. Until next time.