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[0:00] Aaron Albano: You're listening to Smashed from The Ensemblist, the only podcast that shows you Broadway from the inside out. I'm Aaron Albano. And I'm Mo Brady.

[0:27] Mo Brady: Welcome back, listeners, to our tongue-in-cheek recap of what is television's most detailed depiction of the theatre industry. And yes, we're still talking about Smash, the NBC series that chronicled the creation of not one but two Broadway musicals and all of the drama that ensued along the way.

[0:43] Aaron Albano: We're going back episode by episode to see how this supposed love letter to Broadway has held up over the last decade. In each podcast episode, we're looking to find the answers to these three questions. Did it represent Broadway then? Does it represent Broadway now? And is it any good? So let's dive in and talk about episode six of season two, The Fringe. Aaron, give us the stats.

[1:06] Mo Brady: The Fringe premiered on March 12, 2013. It was written by Julia Brownell and directed by Dan Lerner, two more newcomers to the Smash family.

[1:14] Aaron Albano: The viewership was up this week. Yay! Mo, it was up. People watched.

[1:19] Mo Brady: Is this the first time that's happened?

[1:21] Aaron Albano: Possibly. Up 220,000 from the previous episode, The Fringe was seen by 2.9 million viewers. We saw three songs and a reprise this week, one of which was a cover of This Will Be Our Year by the Zombies, sung by the Hit List cast. The other two and a half were original songs from all three of our musicals.

[1:40] Mo Brady: Mark Shaman and Scott Whitman delivered us a reprise of Never Give All the Heart from Bombshell and a Glitter and Be Gay-inspired number from Liaisons called A Letter from Cecile.

[1:50] Aaron Albano: Lastly, from Hit List, we got a new song called Heart-Shaped Wreckage, written by Julian Emery, John Green, James Lawrence Irvin, and Lucy Silvas. Everybody wrote it.

[2:02] Mo Brady: Everybody. And what happened at The Fringe, Mo?

[2:06] Aaron Albano: Hit List has booked a spot in the Winter Fringe Festival after all. It's only two presentations in a shoebox, but Jimmy is convinced Hit List is good enough to outshine the venue. Which is good because the show gets picked up by Time Out and a bunch of theater people RSVP'd.

[2:22] Mo Brady: Back at Bombshell, Eileen has decided to produce the dynamic Technicolor fantasy that Tom and Jerry prefer, much to the chagrin of Julia and Derek.

[2:32] Aaron Albano: Karen is all lined up to star in the Hit List presentation, but Jerry can't be introducing Karen Cartwright if she's already been introduced at the Winter Fringe, which leaves Jimmy, Kyle, and the rest of the Fringe crew understandably ticked off about Karen's backing out.

[2:48] Mo Brady: At a coffee clash in Madison Square Park, Ivy tells Derek that Terry Falls continues to derail Liaisons into a farce, but he replies that standing out as good in a bad show is a time-honored theater tradition, and to follow her instincts. She spices up the production's press preview by adding her own brand of humor, but her good work threatens Terry Falls. Only in an eleventh-hour company meeting does Terry have the balls to invite the company to tell him how bad Liaisons really is.

[3:19] Aaron Albano: Bombshell's new producer Jerry Rand continues to meddle with Julia's script, suggesting they cut the intellectual downer of a song and never give all the heart. He and Eileen give Tom a challenge, change it into an uplifting song that makes them feel something in the next twenty-four hours. The composer puts a new spin on it, making it a cautionary tale, and empowered instead of wistful, but Tom's direction puts Derek over the edge, which makes him quit the show and storm out of rehearsal. And Eileen loves Tom's work enough to crown Tom Bombshell's new director.

[3:52] Mo Brady: Derek's departure from Hit List frees up Karen to perform in the second night of Hit List at the Fringe, as well as making Derek available to watch her in it. The director is taken by the show and the performances of both Karen and Jimmy. So is Scott Nichols, artistic director at Manhattan Theatre Workshop, who says the show is actually just the kind of project he is looking for.

[4:13] Aaron Albano: How'd you like this episode, Mel?

[4:17] Mo Brady: Um, it wasn't my favorite, but it's getting us somewhere.

[4:33] Aaron Albano: Sure. What did you think?

[4:35] Mo Brady: I don't agree with all of those words. Not my favorite. Getting us somewhere. It's like an interstitial episode. I mean, it's making me very passionate. It's making me very, it's giving me a lot of visceral reactions. I want to kill Jerry Rand.

[4:50] Aaron Albano: You know, I'm thinking back, I'm thinking back to your musical synopsis. I feel like Liaisons songs are just a giant detour from the trajectory of this piece.

[5:02] Mo Brady: Well, I was wondering, because, because I remember last episode, we...

[5:06] Aaron Albano: Did we say it wasn't a musical?

[5:07] Mo Brady: We thought it was a play. Both of us thought it was a play. And then I'm remembering when Ivy was auditioning for it. She went to Tom's house to ask for the cast recording. And I was like, oh, this is a musical. Cool.

[5:21] Aaron Albano: This is a musical. They've been telling us it's a musical the whole time, and yet...

[5:24] Mo Brady: I just didn't. I loved the song. I thought the song was very, I mean, it showed, A, it showed Megan's range. B, it showed a style of music that I don't think I've ever heard Mark Shaman and Scott Whitman write before.

[5:41] Aaron Albano: Yeah, sure.

[5:42] Mo Brady: It was definitely another moment of like, the show sort of telling us she was really, really good, which she was, but it definitely projected that like, she brought the house down with one foul swoop.

[5:55] Aaron Albano: Yes.

[5:56] Mo Brady: Yeah. Similarly to Derek's imagined version of Heart Shaped Wreckage, which like turns it into this like, incredible production. But in my mind, it's kind of like, I don't know if that's a great song. And it doesn't go anywhere! It doesn't go anywhere!

[6:10] Aaron Albano: Well, none of the Hit List songs really go anywhere, do they?

[6:13] Mo Brady: No, they don't. But I did love, I did love the throwback. What did it look like? It looked like, I feel like it was very reminiscent of La Boheme.

[6:20] Aaron Albano: Oh, yeah.

[6:21] Mo Brady: At least all the ads for La Boheme.

[6:23] Aaron Albano: Yeah, because all the ads for the Baz Luhrmann La Boheme had that big red title treatment that looks like the Pepsi Cola sign.

[6:31] Mo Brady: Smash loves a Long Island City Pepsi Cola sign. They are like, Smash is trying to convince us that the center of the theater district is Madison Square Park, and that the most iconic landmark in New York City is actually the Pepsi Cola sign in Long Island City.

[6:50] Aaron Albano: In Long Island City? Get off the 7 and you're there.

[6:54] Mo Brady: So, Smash is definitely doing a better job of sort of grounding itself both in New York and Broadway, right? We're getting all of these outdoor scenes in New York City, and it's also referencing Broadway in all of these ways, right?

[7:05] Aaron Albano: Yes.

[7:06] Mo Brady: Like Tom says, it's not like we have the problems Wicked had. Nine years later, it's still one of the highest grossing shows on Broadway.

[7:14] Aaron Albano: Which yes, yes it is. But I was thinking like, wow, Tom, drag Wicked. Guaranteed, none of the target audience in the middle of the country know anything about Wicked.

[7:25] Mo Brady: You don't think people in the middle of the country know what Wicked is?

[7:27] Aaron Albano: No, they know what Wicked is. They didn't know that Wicked had all these problems at the beginning.

[7:31] Mo Brady: Oh, sure.

[7:32] Aaron Albano: Yeah.

[7:33] Mo Brady: Okay, so for my dad who is listening, what were the problems that Wicked had?

[7:39] Aaron Albano: I feel like it famously had a lot of problems out of town. Like the show that was in San Francisco was very different from the show that ended up on Broadway. Like the entire Which Way's the Party number that Fiyero used to have was completely scrapped and became a Dancing Through Life in the Broadway company, in the Broadway show. If you look at Broadway, the American musical, the DVD documentary on PBS, all of that footage is Which Way's the Party, because all of that coverage was from the rehearsals for the out-of-town tryout in San Francisco.

[8:18] Mo Brady: Sure.

[8:19] Aaron Albano: Yeah, so I also remember, like, I think it's the show in San Francisco was a lot closer to the Gregory Maguire novel than the show ended up being.

[8:30] Mo Brady: Right, which is a lot more political and a lot more sort of dark.

[8:35] Aaron Albano: Yeah, characters died, like characters went different directions. It was darker and more...

[8:41] Mo Brady: It was more true to the source material.

[8:44] Aaron Albano: Yes, correct.

[8:45] Mo Brady: And I think that Wicked is known for being sort of a teen girl musical, right? The thing that we see on Broadway now is very sweet and very nice.

[8:56] Aaron Albano: Yes, yes.

[8:58] Mo Brady: The folklore in the theater industry is that it took a lot of work to get it from a political novel to America's favorite musical.

[9:12] Aaron Albano: Okay, I get it. Yeah, I can see that.

[9:15] Mo Brady: What did you think of this spiced up version of Never Give All the Heart? Do you like it?

[9:21] Aaron Albano: No. Well, no, I did not. Let's just I'll just say it flat out. I did not. Is Tom not completely overstepping in this scene? Like his assignment was to make this number more uptempo where we feel things. He decided to restage and direct the lead of the show and choreograph this entirely new number.

[9:45] Mo Brady: That's overstepping. Yes. Okay. Watching the show, I was like, oh, no. I mean, the best idea wins, right? Sometimes the best idea wins and you can be in a room where the best idea wins.

[9:55] Aaron Albano: Correct.

[9:56] Mo Brady: However, maybe the composer staging a number behind the director's back isn't like the best.

[10:04] Aaron Albano: No. And especially like if I was in this room, I'd be like, yeah, Derek, good job. You should quit and get out of this room. This is toxic at this point. If that situation happened in a rehearsal room, would that kind of blow up and leaving the show been appropriate or would it have been an overreaction?

[10:21] Mo Brady: Well, I think those are two separate things. In my opinion, Derek has the right to blow up, right? Yeah. Tom is going behind.

[10:29] Mo Brady: Derek has a job to do. He can do that job, right? However, considering all of Derek's problems and all of the sexual misconduct allegations and being fired from The Wiz, maybe you shouldn't quit your Broadway show because I don't know if you're going to have another job. It turns out that Hit List is going to come around the corner in a moment. If I, I mean, I understand that he's frustrated and he's been frustrated by this sinking ship that is Bombshell. I mean, what's the entire episode about, right? The entire episode is about compromising your art for the crap that's around you, right? This is Ivy's entire plight with Terry Falls. This is Julia's issue with whether she goes to London with Peter or stays with Bombshell. And then Derek's issue is he's watching the show that he used to love be ruined by this newcomer. Newcomer meaning Jerry. And this person that he thought was on board with his vision is clearly not. So he's at the end of his rope.

[11:42] Aaron Albano: Yeah, I guess I believe what you're saying that there was a point where the show that they're working on now is not the show that Derek signed up for. Yes, it's a Maryland musical, but it is the bright technicolor, not the dark option. And he just had sort of dangled in front of his face, the kind of Maryland musical he wanted to create. Yes. And then it got snatched from him, right? Was it sensical? Yes. Was it sensible? Maybe not. Look at you. What did you think of the liaison's presentation?

[12:16] Mo Brady: It was lush. It was very lush. I have never in my life seen a press day be that well produced. Yeah. I feel like on a press day, people are like, oh, I'm going to dress up cute or let's all wear black. Yeah. But like full costumes and wigs. Wigs. I was like, oh, the room is decorated like all those empty picture frames that are along the outside walls. Like, okay, wigs and costumes, you have to build those for the production, right? There's a world where you'd be like, oh, maybe those exist. But the idea that they've created a set for the press preview, I was like, calm down, calm down. And that's where I'm just like, this is for comedy, right? Sure. I mean, at least the drama is the drama. But I, I feel like Terry Falls is such a outlandish character that I'm just annoyed by him rather than into his storyline. What do you think about Terry?

[13:13] Aaron Albano: Rebecca Duvall was this believable outsider coming in. He literally feels like a farce. His issues are so out there that I'm like, this doesn't feel even remotely real or remotely authentic. I think also what doesn't ring true for me is there's no voice of reason in the room. There's no producer, you know, smash is showing us that the buck stops with the producer. And that if there is an issue of artistic differences, someone at the top with the money comes in and says, we're going to do it this way or the other way. Right? That's, that's the case with bombshell. But yet with liaisons, it's like the lunatics run the asylum. You're like, who's in charge here? Literally no one's in charge. And it feels like no one's in charge. And that's why Ivy's having a meltdown. Because she's like, wait, I've been here before. I know how this is supposed to go. And this is not how it's supposed to go.

[14:12] Mo Brady: Speaking of Ivy. Yeah. What do you think of that time-honored tradition that Derek talks about? He says, everyone expects you to be good in a good show. If you're in a bad show, you stand out. Is that real? That to me feels like Katherine Hepburn in Coco bullshit. Like, like, it feels like it's of not only another era, but like three eras before. Yeah. I don't think that carries through anymore. Cause not to drag any shows, I guess we can drag shows because they're dragging shows. Like what's a bad show that a good performer has shown through in recent memory, if any, in any memory?

[15:00] Aaron Albano: Carmen Cusack in Bright Star. I feel like many people had problems with the show or thought the show was just fine, but she was like the reason to attend and she got a little, a big bump in her cred in the notoriety. Yeah. But again, fine shows different from bad show. Like this show's supposed to be a garbage fire, baby. It's you. How about Baby, It's You?

[15:28] Mo Brady: Beth Leavel was the star of Baby, It's You. I feel like people thought Beth Leavel is good in this. Okay. The rest of it is a mess, but like, if we go to, wow, we're just dragging all kinds of shows. If we go to what was the, um, Kathleen Gifford show Scandalous, Scandalous, like fantastic. But everybody remembers that Scandalous was a wreck. They don't remember that like Scandalous was a wreck, but Carolee Carmelo was brilliant in it. Like that's not a thing, is it? I don't feel that either in the case of Baby, It's You or Scandalous that the memory about the leading lady is that they were great. I think the memory is that they floated above the wreckage.

[16:15] Aaron Albano: Huh? So that's what he's saying. It's not what he's saying. So I think what he's saying isn't true. He's saying you can be Carmen Cusack in Bright Star in a Scandalous. And what you and I believe is that you can be Carmen Cusack in a Bright Star, but if you're in a Scandalous, the best you can be is a Carolee Carmelo. Yes. We should all hope to be a Carolee Carmelo. I dream of being a Carolee Carmelo. I just want to say that there's no one dragging Carolee Carmelo, Beth Leavel, or Carmen Cusack through the mud in this podcast. We're only dragging Scandalous if Kathleen Gifford's not listening. Miss Gifford, if you're listening, I love you on the Today Show.

[17:06] Mo Brady: Wow. All right. So let's talk about our third musical. Let's talk about Hit List at the Fringe. La Boheme at the Fringe. Let's go. First impressions. I still don't know what Kyle's doing here, but...

[17:14] Aaron Albano: No. Kyle, I did the book. Jimmy did the music and lyrics. There's no book, Kyle.

[17:20] Mo Brady: There is no book, right? There's no book.

[17:22] Aaron Albano: I'm like, at this point, he needs to be the agent for the show. He has the people skills to talk to Jesse L. Martin at a bar. He could be the producer.

[17:31] Mo Brady: He could be the producer, that too. Well, Jesse L. Martin's going to be the producer, or is setting it up so that he can produce a version of it.

[17:39] Aaron Albano: Right. But Kyle, I'm like, you did no book. There was no book.

[17:44] Mo Brady: What's funny is that Smash doesn't think we're going to notice those things, but really, for the last season and five episodes, it's been telling us, this is what a book writer does. This is what a composer does.

[17:57] Aaron Albano: Absolutely. This is what a director does.

[17:59] Mo Brady: It's like... If there's any educational value to Smash, I know what you're supposed to be doing, and you didn't do it.

[18:07] Aaron Albano: You're not doing it right. No.

[18:09] Mo Brady: I will say that I like the inclusion of Manhattan Theatre Workshop, which is not a real place.

[18:16] Aaron Albano: Yeah.

[18:17] Mo Brady: We have Manhattan Theatre Club, and we have New York Theatre Workshop. This is like an imagined amalgamation of the two. However, it does feel more New York Theatre Workshop to me, because it feels more downtown.

[18:30] Aaron Albano: That sounds right. There's so many Rent vibes going on, because Rent started at New York Theatre Workshop. Am I remembering that correctly?

[18:38] Mo Brady: Rent started at New York Theatre Workshop. Peter and the Starcatcher once. Hadestown. It's like the other public theatre, basically.

[18:46] Aaron Albano: Well, it's like a scrappier public theatre. I don't know. I walk into the public theatre, and I'm like, this is gorgeous. And when I've gone to New York Theatre Workshop, I'm like, this is not gorgeous.

[18:55] Mo Brady: Fair. That's real.

[19:02] Aaron Albano: Not that theatre has to be created in gorgeous spaces, but it does feel like a sort of scrappier downtown vibe. And spoiler alert, the exterior shots for Manhattan Theatre Workshop are actually the exterior of New York Theatre Workshop. So it is definitely giving you a New York Theatre Workshop vibe. Between those exterior shots, Jesse L. Martin, the original Collins, and Rent, I do like that this is the trajectory it's going to go on. And to be honest, if we're going to get a musical to go from the Winter Fringe Festival to the Tony Awards in six months' time, probably an imagined version of New York Theatre Workshop is the way that we're going to go.

[19:51] Mo Brady: Oh, for sure. It's definitely the treatment of a new, hip, bohemian show to go against the mega musical that will be Bombshell.

[20:00] Aaron Albano: Right. Every Wicked needs its Avenue Q.