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[0:00] Aaron Albano: You're listening to Smashed from The Ensemblist, the only podcast that shows you Broadway from the inside out. I'm Aaron Albano.

[0:11] Mo Brady: And I'm Mo Brady.

[0:23] Aaron Albano: Welcome back listeners to our tongue-in-cheek recap of what is television's most detailed depiction of the theater industry. And yes, at the home stretch, we're still talking about Smash, the NBC series that chronicled the creation of not one but two Broadway musicals, and all of the drama that ensued along the way.

[0:40] Mo Brady: We've been going back episode by episode to see how this supposed love letter to Broadway has held up over the past decade. In each podcast episode, we're looking to find the answers to these three questions.

[0:51] Aaron Albano: Did it represent Broadway then?

[0:53] Mo Brady: Does it represent Broadway now?

[0:55] Aaron Albano: And is it any good?

[0:57] Mo Brady: So let's dive in and talk about Episode 16 of Season 2, The Nominations. Aaron, give us the stats.

[1:04] Aaron Albano: Happy to, Mo. The penultimate episode of Season 2, The Nominations, premiered on May 26, 2013. It was written by Brian Goluboff, who last penned The Dramaturg earlier this season, and was directed by Michael Morris, who has written a number of Season 2 episodes. The viewership jumped up by 0.43 million viewers from the last episode, bringing the total viewership to 2.44 million.

[1:33] Aaron Albano: We had three featured songs this week, with our only original song being an excerpt from Hit List's Rewrite This Story, written by Pasek and Paul. Our two others included a cover of Traffic's Feelin' Alright, sung by Megan Hilty, and If You Want Me from Once, performed by Krysta Rodriguez.

[1:50] Mo Brady: And how'd our penultimate episode of the series end up, Mo?

[1:54] Aaron Albano: It's just days until Tony Award nominations come out, and nobody's feelin' alright. Eileen wants more nominations than Hit List, Tom wants a win to cement his future as a director, oh, and Ivy is puking in the bathroom between scenes because she's pregnant.

[2:10] Mo Brady: She's pregnant?

[2:11] Aaron Albano: Jimmy is worried that Kyle won't be recognized with a Tony nomination for Best Book, but Hit List's producer Jerry says he's worried about the wrong thing, because Ana is filing a wrongful termination suit against Derek.

[2:26] Aaron Albano: The Outer Critics Circle deems Best Director a tie between Derek and Tom, and Julia wins Best Book for Bombshell, but Hit List walks away with the rest, including acting awards for Karen, Sam, and Daisy.

[2:39] Mo Brady: The win for Daisy lights a fire under Karen's ass to protect her roommate, igniting her to storm into Daisy's dressing room demanding she quit Hit List, but Daisy's been working too hard for ten years to give up this opportunity.

[2:53] Aaron Albano: At the Outer Critics Circle luncheon, Julia gives a touching tribute to Kyle, and Tom dedicates his joint win to Derek, but afterwards, tensions flare as Jimmy interrupts the proceedings to give Julia a lecture on theatrical ethics.

[3:09] Mo Brady: Burning the candle at both ends, and with his voice failing, Jimmy is encouraged by Karen to call out of that night's show and watch the fruits of Kyle's labor from the audience.

[3:20] Aaron Albano: Teary-eyed after sitting in the Barrymore, Jimmy realizes that theater lovers will remember Kyle for his work on stage, not because he did or didn't win a Tony.

[3:30] Mo Brady: The morning that those Tony nominations are announced, everyone from the Bombshell and Hit List camps are crowded around their screens to watch them live.

[3:38] Aaron Albano: Bombshell gets 12 nominations, including those for Ivy, Leigh, Derek, Julia, and Tom, but Hit List gets 13, with nods for Karen, Daisy, Derek, Jimmy, and Kyle.

[3:51] Mo Brady: But all is not peachy, as Julia is being dragged to court by her soon-to-be ex-husband, and Derek publicly acknowledges that he wrongfully terminated Ana and gave the part to Daisy after sleeping with her.

[4:03] Aaron Albano: How long can I stay lost without a way to rewrite, rewrite, I wish I could rewrite this story.

[4:23] Mo Brady: Okay, so before we start anything, we have to talk about Oliver.

[4:29] Aaron Albano: I'm right.

[4:30] Mo Brady: I just want to say that—

[4:31] Aaron Albano: You didn't listen to our episode two weeks ago?

[4:33] Mo Brady: Let's roll tape, folks.

[4:36] Aaron Albano: So, back in episode 14, Mo was saying how he had this theory that Laura Osnes was playing Oliver in this deconstructed production of Oliver, and because of the forthcoming revival of 1776, I jokingly stated that Diane Paulus' Oliver would be the sight to see for the season.

[4:59] Mo Brady: Fast forward two episodes, and we are here with Diane Paulus' Oliver being nominated for a Tony.

[5:05] Aaron Albano: And yet, Laura Osnes is not the one who is nominated for a Tony.

[5:11] Mo Brady: It is Sutton Foster.

[5:13] Aaron Albano: Sutton Foster!

[5:14] Mo Brady: Which I'm like, A, how is Sutton Foster and Laura Osnes in this production of Oliver?

[5:22] Aaron Albano: B, who is Sutton Foster playing?

[5:25] Mo Brady: C, dammit, Mo was right about all of it.

[5:28] Aaron Albano: I feel great.

[5:29] Mo Brady: I just want to point out, I feel great.

[5:31] Aaron Albano: I was so mad.

[5:32] Mo Brady: But yeah, so who is Sutton Foster playing?

[5:34] Aaron Albano: Who do we think Sutton Foster is playing in this deconstructed, all-female production of Oliver?

[5:40] Mo Brady: There are only two leading roles in Oliver.

[5:42] Aaron Albano: It is Fagin and Oliver.

[5:44] Mo Brady: So she has to be Fagin.

[5:46] Aaron Albano: Yeah, one is playing one and one is playing the other.

[5:50] Mo Brady: This is the only explanation.

[5:53] Aaron Albano: I'm mad.

[5:54] Mo Brady: I'm mad.

[5:55] Aaron Albano: Why are you a prophet?

[5:58] Mo Brady: I just know this industry.

[5:59] Aaron Albano: All right, let's talk about award season.

[6:02] Mo Brady: This is where the drama is.

[6:03] Aaron Albano: We love award season.

[6:05] Mo Brady: We could get into every single one of these awards just so deliciously.

[6:09] Aaron Albano: Why does Smash condense the most exciting month of the theater season into half an episode?

[6:19] Mo Brady: Is it even half the episode?

[6:20] Aaron Albano: It's less.

[6:21] Mo Brady: It's less.

[6:22] Aaron Albano: All we've done is fill it with all this other stuff when the most exciting part of the episode is all of this.

[6:30] Mo Brady: For your target audience, it's all of this.

[6:34] Aaron Albano: Yes.

[6:35] Mo Brady: That Ivy stage door gaffe that gets recorded, the Karen and Jimmy interview gaffe, these press threats.

[6:41] Aaron Albano: It's just like...

[6:43] Mo Brady: I'm like, where's the press training?

[6:44] Aaron Albano: Yeah, it doesn't feel like...

[6:46] Mo Brady: Maybe Jimmy was supposed to be at press training and he showed up late.

[6:51] Aaron Albano: But Ivy should know better.

[6:53] Mo Brady: She should know better.

[6:55] Aaron Albano: She's been around.

[6:57] Mo Brady: This is before stage dooring became a full-time job, too.

[7:01] Aaron Albano: Right?

[7:02] Mo Brady: That's how Broadway's changed between 2013 and now.

[7:05] Aaron Albano: This was back when leading actors weren't expected to spend 45 minutes at the stage door.

[7:10] Mo Brady: I guess that's real.

[7:11] Aaron Albano: That's true.

[7:12] Mo Brady: I mean, I guess here's...

[7:14] Aaron Albano: I mean, we weren't all in Newsies, so we didn't all get bombarded when we left the theater, Erin.

[7:20] Mo Brady: How dare you?

[7:21] Aaron Albano: I guess here's the question, though.

[7:23] Mo Brady: And your Twitter followers and your cookie cakes.

[7:27] Aaron Albano: Wow, deep cut.

[7:29] Mo Brady: But here's...

[7:30] Mo Brady: I guess here's the question, because whether we like it or not, Smash filled half the episode with this petty rivalry.

[7:35] Aaron Albano: Is there some truth in this sort of rivalry when there are two big shows in a season?

[7:44] Mo Brady: We've referenced this before.

[7:46] Aaron Albano: The first rivalry might be too strong, but that sort of...

[7:50] Mo Brady: When Wicked was up against Avenue Q, it was this big show versus this small show.

[7:55] Aaron Albano: And it was definitely like those were the two shows of the season.

[8:00] Mo Brady: And while everybody in the world was like, oh, who's going to win?

[8:05] Aaron Albano: Did that exist sort of in them, too?

[8:08] Mo Brady: I don't feel like...

[8:09] Aaron Albano: My only other reference is Newsies versus Once, and I was very personally tied to that.

[8:14] Mo Brady: But I don't remember...

[8:16] Aaron Albano: Aside from us thinking like, ooh, have you seen Once?

[8:20] Mo Brady: Is Once really good?

[8:21] Aaron Albano: Are they going to beat us?

[8:23] Mo Brady: That's all we sort of did.

[8:26] Aaron Albano: But Eileen is not a corporation.

[8:30] Mo Brady: Newsies is produced by Disney.

[8:34] Aaron Albano: Wicked was produced by Universal.

[8:37] Mo Brady: I can see that's David and Goliath story of like there's movie money behind this thing, and it may not be like artistic, but it's just like business theater, right?

[8:51] Aaron Albano: Versus like we did our Off-Broadway.

[8:56] Mo Brady: We came up from New York Theater Workshop, and we are just like so theatrical, right?

[9:02] Aaron Albano: That's the Wicked versus Avenue Q story.

[9:05] Mo Brady: Oh, interesting.

[9:06] Aaron Albano: Eileen is not Disney.

[9:07] Mo Brady: Yeah.

[9:08] Aaron Albano: Eileen is not Universal.

[9:10] Mo Brady: Eileen, we're supposed to be rooting for her.

[9:13] Aaron Albano: Yeah.

[9:14] Mo Brady: If anything in this world, Jerry Rand is the big like head honcho of the smash Broadway world.

[9:22] Aaron Albano: Right.

[9:23] Mo Brady: So it doesn't to me...

[9:25] Aaron Albano: I've also not really gotten the sense that like Bombshell is a big musical.

[9:30] Mo Brady: I mean, it's at the Lyceum slash Lily Hayes.

[9:34] Aaron Albano: Like it's not at a big Broadway house.

[9:37] Mo Brady: I don't think of it as a big Broadway show.

[9:41] Aaron Albano: I think of it as sort of like a prestige Broadway show.

[9:45] Mo Brady: Like a classic Broadway show rather than a huge Broadway show.

[9:48] Aaron Albano: Yes.

[9:49] Mo Brady: Fair.

[9:50] Aaron Albano: Okay.

[9:51] Mo Brady: Interesting.

[9:52] Aaron Albano: And Eileen is sort of one of these producers of another era when there would be one producer above the title, right?

[9:58] Mo Brady: She's not as villainous as David Merrick, but she's that sort of one producer style, right?

[10:07] Aaron Albano: Versus now you have a movie studio and 4,000 producers above the title, right?

[10:13] Mo Brady: Fair.

[10:14] Aaron Albano: Yeah, that's true.

[10:15] Mo Brady: So maybe the rivalry is not necessarily big versus small, but it's sort of classic versus edgy.

[10:21] Aaron Albano: Award season.

[10:23] Mo Brady: I will say the one thing that in some way this show gets right is that award season makes people nuts.

[10:30] Aaron Albano: I've deemed it Tony fever.

[10:31] Mo Brady: Like from May to June and up until award season, New York is feeling Tony fever.

[10:37] Aaron Albano: Very, very, very, very, very much.

[10:39] Mo Brady: Do you have a specific example?

[10:41] Aaron Albano: The two that stick out to me were, I mean, because I was there for Tony season for Newsies.

[10:47] Mo Brady: I was there for Tony season for King and I.

[10:49] Aaron Albano: Newsies wasn't too bad because the only fever that I felt was like us wondering if Once was really as good as everybody says it was.

[10:55] Mo Brady: Hot take, it kind of was.

[10:59] Aaron Albano: But King and I was an interesting animal because up at Lincoln Center, I thought that we were sort of aloof to all normal Broadway 20 blocks down.

[11:11] Mo Brady: But Tony season hit that building hard.

[11:16] Aaron Albano: I thought up at Lincoln Center, you guys just cared about the art.

[11:19] Mo Brady: That's what I thought too, apparently not.

[11:22] Aaron Albano: Sorry, Lincoln Center.

[11:24] Mo Brady: I was like, oh, wow.

[11:26] Aaron Albano: We really live for this award season.

[11:28] Mo Brady: I wonder if this is normal to every award season.

[11:33] Aaron Albano: Yes.

[11:34] Mo Brady: All that to say is nobody's immune from Tony fever.

[11:37] Aaron Albano: Not even Tom Leavitt.

[11:39] Mo Brady: Even Tom Leavitt.

[11:40] Aaron Albano: He's so thirsty.

[11:41] Mo Brady: What did you think of Tom's storyline?

[11:45] Moe Brady: Well, it sort of relates to his storyline in the last episode, which we didn't get to talk about in the podcast, which was, let's create an entirely staged Oak Room concert as a ploy for extra director nominations. Like it just feels like his energies may be in the wrong place.

[12:05] Aaron Albano: Completely! Here's a question, because I've never been in a new Broadway show. What does the director do between opening a spring musical and Tony Awards? Are they around a lot? What is the job of that person once the show is quote-unquote frozen, but still being kind of, its fate is being decided?

[12:27] Moe Brady: I mean, I feel like they're definitely around. They're sort of doing the job that, frankly, the Associate does after the season's done and they leave. They're there taking notes, keeping the show up, but they're directing the show. They're not just like, left the show high and dry and then just hoping for the best, which is what Tom is apparently doing and just like trying to use his back channels to make sure he gets a Tony nomination. He's also, I'm like, what else has Tom been worried about lately? Ivy's birthday party, Kyle dying, and getting a Tony award. Oh, the City of Angels revival. Great. But it's all, yeah, all self-focused, but you know, we're done. Theater people are trash.

[13:15] Aaron Albano: Yes, we are apparently. Great. What do you think about this theory posed by Patrick Dillon, Tony nominator, who says to Tom, after seeing Bombshell, you know what they say about Tony voting. First you vote for yourself, then you vote against your enemies, but then you vote with your heart.

[13:35] Moe Brady: I mean, theory aside, who's they that are saying this about Tony voting? I've never heard this. Who is this they?

[13:44] Aaron Albano: It must be at like the roadshow conference when all the Tony voters who are like, manage regional theaters are like at the Merriam-Marquee getting drunk together. They're like, well, you know what we say. It's actually like Tony nominator orientation, where if you're a new Tony nominator, they're like, just so you know, first you vote for yourself. They just show this video from Smash.

[14:09] Moe Brady: I mean, so that said, I mean, I think it's not wrong. I think it's actually pretty true because it's not like there's a, you're allowed to vote for yourself and everybody who's going to vote like anybody who is involved in a show or producing a show or in the show that are also nominators are absolutely going to vote for themselves. I'm trying to imagine any world in which a person in a show would not vote for their show in every category.

[14:40] Aaron Albano: I mean, it would be a nice like adjustment to the nominating process because that would be appropriate.

[14:48] Moe Brady: Yeah, it feels kind of icky, doesn't it? But I mean, but this is the system we got.

[14:54] Aaron Albano: And so would it be nice to like reverse the statement? Sure, but not in the current system. So I think it's right.

[15:04] Moe Brady: Well, don't worry because we don't have Tony awards in the current system, so it's fine.

[15:10] Aaron Albano: That's there it is. That's the one. Oh gosh. And then speaking of themes from season one, finding their way back into the end of season two, we've got a good chorus shaming in this episode where Daisy says, I've been trying to get here for 10 years of lost roles, endless showcases and teaching Pilates. After two years of that, let alone 10, you stop caring about being a good person and do what it takes.

[15:38] Moe Brady: I hate this so much. I hate this so much. Everything about this speech, I hate so much. And I'm just, I'm putting it into such a beautiful person's mouth. Like the fact that Mara Davi, our Maggie, the Maggie of this generation's mouth to say in this episode, just like stabbed me in the heart.

[16:05] Aaron Albano: Does anybody think like that? Like does any, does anyone get into the theater business because they're like, I'm going to give this two good years and then I'm going to become bitter as fuck.

[16:17] Moe Brady: I mean, what's sad is I think they do. And that's what sucks about it because, and maybe this is what Smash is sort of doing where like it's presenting this garbage perspective on the business and then, and we'll proceed to stomp it out of the ground. But just the fact that it's been highlighted, it's a horrible perspective to lift up in art anywhere.

[16:40] Aaron Albano: Well, it's everything that the Ensemblist stands for, right?

[16:43] Moe Brady: Yeah. The fact that there isn't a clearly defined ladder, the fact that you sort of decide what is success and there are multiple ways to be successful in this business. It's this type of artist that is not here for the art. They are calling themselves an artist because that's what we call themselves. But in fact, they're just like here for the fame. They're here for the fame. They're here for the money. And maybe this is the trajectory of someone who's lost their passion. And that's not something to like, I don't know, that's someone who has not cultivated their joy in this business at all. Like she expected to be somewhere, she's not. And now she's given up all of her values to achieve that. And it's gross.

[17:30] Aaron Albano: And I think what makes it icky TV for me is the fact that Daisy is the villain. Like it's very clear that we are not supposed to care about Daisy and we aren't supposed to like Daisy, right? If those words came out of the mouth of someone who we had empathy for, then you'd be like, oh gosh, man, you're saying some really disheartening things, but I empathize with you because I know who you are as a character.

[18:01] Moe Brady: It's the difference between seeing Ivy at the beginning of the episode sort of flub when she's talking to Sam, when she's just in high stress and she puts down Sam's award win because he's less than. And the minute it comes out of her mouth, she's like, that was awful. I apologize. And because we've been on the road with her, we know that was an honest mistake, but indicative of a value system she had before. Daisy, in what we've seen of her now, this is an ethos that she lives under. Or we can only assume that it's an ethos she lives under because we don't know anything else about her.

[18:43] Aaron Albano: Yeah, but I hated it. I hated every minute of it. I hated every second of it. It was definitely a tactic being applied for me to not like her, and it worked. Congratulations, Smash writers.

[18:58] Moe Brady: On the opposite side of artists being trash, Julia poses this idea near the end of the episode. She says, artists shouldn't feel ashamed about helping each other. It shouldn't always be a competition.

[19:12] Aaron Albano: Well, that sounds nice, doesn't it?

[19:14] Moe Brady: I loved that. I loved it so much.

[19:17] Aaron Albano: Yeah, like in direct opposition to Daisy's speech. When that happened, I was like, oh, there you are, Peter. But that's not Smash. That is anti-Smash.

[19:30] Moe Brady: That's what's hard about that statement, because as I was watching the episode, I saw it and I was like, wait, is this the thesis of the episode? Because we've spent the entire episode watching all of this competition and feeling gross about it. Jimmy versus Julia, and Tom versus Derek, and Jerry versus Eileen, and Ivy versus Karen, and Karen versus Daisy, and Daisy versus Anna. And it was just like, ew. That when Julia walked up to Jimmy and said this about Kyle's work, it was such a breath of fresh air that I was like, is this what the episode's about? Wait, is this what the series is about? Would I have loved it to have been? Yes. Is it? No.

[20:32] Aaron Albano: Not at all. I wish it did. That statement that Julia says reminds me of Glee, not Smash.

[20:40] Moe Brady: Interesting.

[20:41] Aaron Albano: Glee was a story about us versus them, right? The enemy was always, there was bickering and infighting, but ultimately, the enemy was always outside. And in Smash, the enemy has always been inside.

[20:57] Moe Brady: Interesting, yeah. I wonder if that's why it's just like, I mean, you can say that that's like drama, like there's inherently more drama about the infighting than having an external enemy. But I wonder if that's part of the reason why the show just like ultimately didn't land is because people were like, I don't really want to watch people fight.

[21:17] Aaron Albano: Well, I think because-

[21:18] Moe Brady: I'm wrong because Real Housewives is the thing, but-

[21:22] Aaron Albano: Well, no, but no one associates themselves. Anyone who associates themselves as a housewife, honestly, I don't think would watch that show. This is me speaking as not a housewife, so I have no idea for real. Speaking as you and I, people in this business and have been in this industry for many, many years, you and I know that this is an industry that has its stuff, but at the end of the day, it is a family, it is a community, and that is what we cling to about this world of Broadway. And for a show that values the competition over that family, I think that's how ultimately it doesn't feel true because we're like, no, that's not what our industry is about. Our industry comes together when all is said and done. It does not tear each other up. Despite being up against each other, we lift each other up, and that is what Broadway is.

[22:25] Moe Brady: To keep up to date with next week's recap, be sure to watch Season 2, Episode 17 of Smash, also known as the Smash Series Finale, The Tonys.

[22:36] Aaron Albano: Woo-hoo-hoo-hoo! You can find Smash episodes on either the NBC app or at nbc.com.

[22:42] Moe Brady: The Ensemble List was produced today by me, Moe Brady.

[22:45] Aaron Albano: And by me, Aaron Albano. Thank you for watching, and we'll see you next week.

[22:50] Moe Brady: The Ensemble List was produced today by me, Moe Brady.

[22:53] Aaron Albano: And by me, Aaron Albano. There are two great ways you can be helping The Ensemble List right now. One is by leaving us a rating and review on Apple Podcasts, and the second is by becoming a Patreon member at patreon.com slash The Ensemble List.

[23:05] Moe Brady: Please follow The Ensemble List wherever you listen to podcasts, on Spotify, Apple Podcasts, or at bpn.fm, the home of Broadway Podcast Network. You can also follow us on Instagram. Thanks for listening. Until next time!