This transcript was automatically generated and might contain errors.

[0:00] Welcome back, listeners, to our tongue-in-cheek recap of what is television's most detailed depiction of the theater industry. And yes, for the last time, we are talking about Smash, the NBC series that chronicled the creation of not one, but two, and maybe three, Broadway musicals and all the drama that ensued along the way. We've been going back to see how this supposed love letter to Broadway has held up over the past decade. So let's dive in and talk about season two of Smash.

[0:55] So what do you think? Okay, let's split this into two things, season two, and then we can discuss series as a whole in a little bit.

[1:02] Great.

[1:03] So in your best synopsis way, describe season two in one sentence.

[1:10] A traditional Broadway musical and a scrappy downtown off-Broadway musical both rise to fame and compete for the industry's highest prizes.

[1:23] Okay.

[1:24] That wasn't great, but that was...

[1:27] But you got it.

[1:28] That's where I...

[1:29] And you didn't even need to use any semicolons. You were great. Good job.

[1:37] I don't know. I'm bad at this.

[1:40] Would you amend my description? Let's go there.

[1:45] Um...

[1:46] No, I would probably semicolon it and add something about Karen and Ivy at the end.

[1:51] You love Karen and Ivy.

[1:53] Because it's the central conflict of the show.

[1:56] It's interesting. I think that Smash is the story of Bombshell and Hit List, and you think that Smash is the story of Karen and Ivy, and neither of those are incorrect.

[2:08] Okay, see? And there's our one sentence-ish. Perfect. See? Semicolons all around.

[2:16] Did season two realistically represent Broadway? What do you think?

[2:19] Oh! Um, I think that it was realistic in some ways and not realistic in others. Let's parse this out. I think that season two doubled down on the on-set locations, right? Season two loved to have us sit in Times Square at a red table. It loved to have a marquee shot.

[2:41] Yeah, we loved outdoor seating in season two.

[2:44] Yes, we thoroughly were in New York. And I think that the fact that it attempted to showcase the trajectory of a musical from off-Broadway to Broadway was also more realistic than what I described in our season one recap as a more sort of golden age of Broadway approach.

[3:08] Interesting. Well, I think also in that way, because we had two shows, arguably three shows, instead of just one show, I feel like just quantitatively, that required us to see more of the industry as a whole instead of focusing on the different characters that we arguably were meeting in season one. Like, we got to see a lot more industry because we had to, because we tracked three shows instead of just one show.

[3:40] While I had qualms about some of the things, you know, the fact that Hit List went from a non-musical to On the Tonys in the same season.

[3:52] Non-musical meaning like not a Broadway musical.

[3:55] It wasn't even a show at the top of the season, arguably, right? And then it was—

[4:00] It went from idea to fully-fledged musical.

[4:03] At the Tony Awards, right?

[4:05] Correct.

[4:06] As like a viable contender for winning. Yes.

[4:08] Yes. Yes. Like that is not a realistic trajectory of how musicals are made.

[4:13] That's fair.

[4:14] But all of this to say, I think season two did a better job of realistically representing Broadway than season one did.

[4:22] Comparatively, is season two better than season one? Generally, not just like industry-wise.

[4:28] I want to throw this back to you because I was on season two and I was not on season one. So, I will always be a season two stan. I know more about season two because I was in the thing, right?

[4:40] Sure. And that's something that happens in our industry also when you're part of it.

[4:46] Yeah.

[4:46] When you're drinking the Kool-Aid, you're drinking the Kool-Aid.

[4:48] You're drinking the Kool-Aid.

[4:49] I'm a cat. Don't forget. So, go ahead.

[4:53] So, yes. While Hit List is like a musical that is more my aesthetic, is more sort of like the pop rock, thrashy body, young white man screaming his problems, like musical that I sort of identify with. I also think season two is a better season because it shows us more scope.

[5:12] Okay. I think the one solitary story event that will forever win season two over season one for me is Ivy's redemption story. That arc is forever and ever, my favorite thing of this show. But that said, as much as I stan that storyline, I feel like between you and me, we had a lot more like, I didn't like this episode moments in season two than we did in season one. A lot of that stuff in the middle, we were like, let's get to it already. Remember Liaisons? Remember that entire arc of this show where we were both like, let's be done with this and get her into bombshell already. Remember J-Hud? Remember Veronica Moore and her entire storyline of making this concert? That kind of stuff, I'm like, yeah, we had less of those moments in season one.

[6:12] Absolutely not. I will absolutely fight you on this.

[6:15] Go. Why?

[6:16] Okay, Liaisons. So when you said Liaisons was like an unnecessary detour, that takes me back to the episode in season one, where they're doing like a contemporary Marilyn and Karen's on the bed and it's all the guys with the white masks, the walkie masks. Okay, so like...

[6:31] With the song written by the One Republic guy.

[6:34] Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[6:34] Yes, that guy. That song.

[6:36] Liaisons is a better detour than that.

[6:39] Except Liaisons lasted like eight episodes.

[6:43] And Jennifer Hudson, sure, but in my mind, Jennifer Hudson's a better detour than Uma Thurman.

[6:52] Okay. Is that the proper comparison? Or is it a Terry Falls versus an Uma Thurman?

[6:59] Oh.

[7:00] Remember Terry Falls?

[7:01] I think that the problems of the middle of the season have to do with the 15 to 17 episodes that a network television show requires.

[7:12] Okay.

[7:12] I enjoyed the diversions and the things that made this story that should be eight episodes into 17 episodes more in season two than in season one. Also, think about the story that we told in season one, which was basically a not yet written musical going from auditions for a workshop to opening night of its out of town tryout versus season two, which was closing night of its out of town tryout, reworking, opening, previews, opening award season, right? I just feel like there was more there there.

[7:54] Okay.

[7:56] It was definitely like season one was definitely like the bombshell season. Season two was definitely the hit list season. And I think maybe it just depending on your feelings about one show's journey versus this other show's journey, because what where bombshell suffers in season two, is that we see them open mid season, and then they're just kind of hanging out until Tony's.

[8:22] right, there's a lot less trajectory shown for bombshell. Okay, okay, okay.

[8:31] Yeah. And so I feel like, I don't know if I had to make a decision. I can't even believe I'm saying this, because I would not have said this in 2014. Reflecting on 2013, smash, I might have to go season one. Is that crazy?

[8:48] No, because season one gave us Jessica Lee Golden saying see you at Vintage.

[8:54] It's a classic, iconic, iconic see at Vintage. Okay, so let's talk about the series as a whole. We did this at the end of last season. We'll do it at the end of this season. When we started all of this, why we wanted to do this to begin with, were our three questions where in the end, did smash authentically represent or sensationalize our business? Does smash hold true to 2020 Broadway or is a time capsule of 2012 slash 2013? And does it unbiasedly hold up as a TV show? Through this season, we've definitely maintained those questions, albeit sort of generalizing them a little further. But let's hit these within reason when it's all said and done. Okay, smash as an entire thing, authentic or sensational? Go.

[9:51] Both. It is both authentic and sensational. It is both authentic and sensational.

[9:59] It's my answer too, so I can't get mad.

[10:01] But it is less sensational than I stood on my high horse and claimed it to be in 2013.

[10:11] It is still sensational.

[10:12] Oh, for sure.

[10:14] They are also working hard to make it not sensational. You know, for all of the reasons that we talked about in our season one recap, because it uses these real people, because it uses these real kind of touch points in a show's history, because it wants to show us, you know, outdoor location shots at every angle. Like, yes, it gets a lot of the details wrong, but it is more authentic than I wanted to give it credit for.

[10:44] Okay.

[10:45] You disagree? You agree?

[10:47] My gut says, where we left off in season one, I was at a very like, it sensationalizes our business, but it authentically represents the people in our business. I feel like that's now flipped. Where I feel like the business aspect as certain events were a bit exaggerated, on the whole.

[11:10] The Tony Awards at the Marquee Theater, can you imagine?

[11:16] How dare you? Sorry, it wasn't at the Minskoff. What year was it at the Minskoff?

[11:21] I don't know.

[11:22] I feel like I remember seeing a Tony performance of like, on Broadway where they were at the Minskoff or something. I don't know. Anyway. But like, I do think like, where we ended with Karen was severely sensationalized. I think where we ended her more authentic and more bright eyed and bushy tailed and almost aspirational of who we wanted her to be.

[11:44] Mo Brady: At the end of season one, she took a detour and became somebody else in this season. Again, yes, you are the lead of your show. But at the same time, like, this is your Broadway debut, like you don't get to try to get people fired from multiple projects that you're in.

[11:59] Aaron Albano: Oh, remember when she tried to get Daisy fired? And we were like, wait, why? She tried to get Daisy fired, and she was successful at getting Ivy fired. This is who the woman has become in season two. And I'm just like, that doesn't feel real, according to the person you established in season one.

[12:21] Mo Brady: Yeah, what you're saying is that you're highlighting that moment that happened, I think it was like episode 15, where Ivy confronts Karen at the bar and is like, you play this naive Iowa thing, and you are just as conniving as the rest of us. And I was like, I want more of that. Like, I want more of Karen having to deal with realizing that she is—what she's becoming. Arguably, whether this is always who she was, or if this is what the industry has made her. Yeah, that would be a great season three. Can't wait to get there.

[13:02] Aaron Albano: Yeah. Um, does it hold true? Does it hold true? Does the show as a whole hold true to 2020? Or is it uniquely 2013?

[13:17] Mo Brady: I think that this season does a better job of feeling closer to 2020. The first season to me really felt like it was less interested in the authenticity of putting together a Broadway show, and less interested in the putting together of a Broadway show realistically now.

[13:34] Aaron Albano: Okay.

[13:34] Mo Brady: And this, the fact that it dealt with a flop, the fact that it said, okay, most shows actually get to Broadway, not because one producer raised a bunch of money and took them to Boston, but because they were off Broadway. And yes, there is the discussion of like, an off Broadway musical that is then transferred to Broadway versus a Broadway musical that is first presented off Broadway, and then brought to Broadway. But yeah, I did. I did like the look at not every musical gets to Broadway the way that we imagine the Pajama Game and Damien Yee's got to Broadway.

[14:08] Aaron Albano: Well, and there's not one road to Broadway, just like there isn't for actors. There also isn't for shows in general.

[14:15] Mo Brady: And that brings it back to the ensemblist. And finally, there's a reason that we're doing this. At the 11th hour, we found the reason we're doing this, outside of us just wanting to do it. Great. Cool. I think I will agree with you on all counts of that.

[14:31] Aaron Albano: Do you think it's a good TV show?

[14:39] Mo Brady: Pregnant Boss.

[14:40] Aaron Albano: This is the most politically correct answer I'm giving. I think it is appropriately a cult classic. I mean, let's be real. There's too many episodes where we were like, I'm done with this. Let's move on. And you can't have that if it's a good TV show. Especially this day and age of what, if we're comparing what TV looks like now, like, it doesn't hold up. I love it. I love it. I love it dearly. Especially with this watch. I love it even more. It's no West Wing, bro. It's no Breaking Bad, bro.

[15:17] Mo Brady: Cult classic is a great way to describe it. I think that's exactly right in my mind. Like, it is not necessarily great storytelling, but it is very watchable.

[15:29] Aaron Albano: Yeah.

[15:30] Mo Brady: Okay. I want to ask you a couple things about your second time around.

[15:33] Aaron Albano: Okay.

[15:35] Mo Brady: What is a number that you forgot about, but blew you away on this rewatch?

[15:41] Aaron Albano: This means that it did not blow me away the first time.

[15:44] Mo Brady: That you—

[15:45] Aaron Albano: I can't answer, don't forget me, because it blew away the first time.

[15:48] Mo Brady: Correct.

[15:49] Aaron Albano: Okay. Because that would be my answer. This time around, and the same applies to you when this question comes to you, you cannot say Voice in a Dream.

[15:58] Mo Brady: No, because I always knew Voice in a Dream is one of the best.

[16:01] Aaron Albano: That's what I'm saying, so you can't say it.

[16:03] Mo Brady: I'm not going to. I would probably say Move in the Line. I did not remember that that song was as good as it was.

[16:08] Aaron Albano: Yes. Move in the Line, which is the one that she performs at the gala, American Theater Wing Gala. Is that right?

[16:14] Mo Brady: Yes, that's right. Because I remember Ivy's strong moments being, A, Let Me Be Your Star, B, Don't Forget Me, C, Secondhand White Baby Grand. I did not remember anything about Move in the Line. And when that song happened, I was like, oh, this is right. This is right. So that's my answer. Go, yours.

[16:37] Aaron Albano: For me, it was Don't Forget Me.

[16:39] Mo Brady: Okay.

[16:39] Aaron Albano: I didn't remember that number. I remembered more, they just keep moving the line. But Don't Forget Me is like an epic final number to a show. And you're like, yes, that would have you walking out, I don't know, feeling like you would learn something that you were like, encouraged to be yourself. I mean, the fact that it like, interpolates the Let Me Be Your Star lyric as the final lyric of it. It's just like, oh my gosh, this is such a good song.

[17:06] Mo Brady: It's the best. It's so good. And we get it twice.

[17:10] Aaron Albano: We are so lucky. All right. What is a storyline that you didn't engage with the first time around, but appreciated more with this viewing?

[17:16] Mo Brady: You go, because I have to think about it.

[17:22] Aaron Albano: Oh, for me, it's Sam Strickland. I don't know why I slept on Leslie Odom Jr. the first viewing, but like, I didn't even really think of him as like a series regular and or like a lead on Smash in my mind. I knew that he was in the second season. But like, Sam has one of the best stories in its relationship to theater of anyone, you know. We get to see him be real in his interactions with this industry, which I think is really cool. His feelings about, yes, I'm playing the general in the national tour of the Book of Mormon. And yes, I wanted to get out of the ensemble. But actually, I'm not really that fulfilled by it. That is such a real actor sentiment. I got exactly what I wanted. And now I want something different.

[18:08] Mo Brady: Girl. Yep. I would say Julia's storyline with Dramaturge Peter. Remember Dramaturge Peter?

[18:19] Aaron Albano: Yeah. Season two. It was long.

[18:21] Mo Brady: Starting from season one, where her work was suffering because of her distractions in her life. She then questions her validity as an artist. She gets defensive about accepting help when she's down, finally accepts that help, discovers this power that was in her that she didn't know about before, and then turning around to impart that wisdom onto an up and comer. To the point where, until the very end, she is not threatened by him, despite his talent. She honors him every step of the way, because she has taken him under her wing.

[19:06] Aaron Albano: Yeah. Two more questions.

[19:07] Mo Brady: Okay.

[19:09] Aaron Albano: What is the one thing you think Smash did best?

[19:17] Mo Brady: Oh, wait, why am I even thinking about it? Ivy's Redemption arc. Are you kidding? Yeah, duh. Ivy's Redemption arc, period. You, go.

[19:26] Aaron Albano: Mine is less about a character and more about how hard it is to put on a musical.

[19:32] Mo Brady: Okay. Yes.

[19:33] Aaron Albano: It is difficult to put on a musical and there are lots of moving pieces and lots of characters in how a musical gets produced. A lot of episode storylines I rolled my eyes at, but the series storyline I think got that right.

[19:54] Mo Brady: I could buy that.

[19:55] Aaron Albano: Last question.

[19:57] Mo Brady: Okay.

[19:58] Aaron Albano: What is the one thing you would change about Smash, if you could? If you can only change one thing.

[20:03] Mo Brady: I mean, it's what you've been railing about this entire second season, is that I would like to see a more inclusive cast. But someone, and more than just one, maybe what, 50%, 60%? That'd be great.

[20:20] Aaron Albano: Yeah. Okay, I lied. One more question.

[20:23] Mo Brady: Okay. Wait, what's your answer?

[20:25] Aaron Albano: I mean, it's another thing that we've sort of been railing about, that they would have made the drama about putting on a musical, not the drama about the people who are putting on a musical.

[20:34] Mo Brady: Okay.

[20:35] Aaron Albano: Okay, I lied. One more question. What would you make the story of season three be?

[20:40] Mo Brady: I think we hit it earlier. Karen's introspective, if like, Karen now hit a dry spell and had to really figure out who she is in this business without all the success that she was gifted with, season one and season two.

[20:56] Aaron Albano: I got it. I figured it out. This just came to me. Season three is the story of launching the Bombshell national tour.

[21:02] Mo Brady: Okay.

[21:05] Aaron Albano: The creative team has the opportunity to rework some of the problems in Bombshell, which will create some sort of drama in sort of like the creation of the show, right? You got to get Derek back in, even though he's gone. Like Eileen has to figure out like how to produce and like what city to start in. And is it like an LA opening? You know, like all of that stuff.

[21:28] Mo Brady: At the beginning, Ivy has to decide whether she's going to take the show on the road, which then can loop in the whole pregnancy thing at the end of season two that we didn't really get to deal with. And then Karen has to eat crow and take the show on the road. And that is her redemption story is that she takes herself a peg down and in the process, learns something about herself.

[21:49] Aaron Albano: I have an idea. I have another idea. That all happens. But first, Hit List closes because Hit List did not win Best Musical. So Hit List does not have the money. So before the tour gets announced, Hit List has closed and Karen has to deal with what life is like post show. Oh, my gosh, I'm obsessed. Amazon Prime, where are you? Call us.

[22:21] Mo Brady: We'll get the pitch ready. Let's go.

[22:31] Aaron Albano: All right, friends, thank you so much for listening with us through two entire seasons of Smash. You can find Smash episodes on either the NBC app or at NBC.com.

[22:42] Mo Brady: The Ensemblist was produced today by me, Mo Brady.

[22:45] Aaron Albano: And by me, Aaron Albano. There are two great ways you can be helping The Ensemblist right now. One is by leaving us a rating and review on Apple Podcasts. And the second is by becoming a Patreon member at Patreon.com slash The Ensemblist.

[22:57] Mo Brady: Please follow The Ensemblist wherever you listen to podcasts on Spotify, on Apple Podcasts or at bpn.fm, the home of Broadway Podcast Network. You can also follow us on Instagram.

[23:09] Aaron Albano: Thanks for listening.

[23:11] Mo Brady: Thanks for listening. We did it, fam.

[23:14] Aaron Albano: We did it.