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[0:00] Aaron Albano: You're listening to Fosse Verdon from The Ensemblist, the only podcast that shows you Broadway from the inside out. I'm Aaron Albano.

[0:12] Mo Brady: And I'm Mo Brady.

[0:21] Mo Brady: Welcome listeners to our mini-series recapping episodes of FX's Emmy Award winning limited series Fosse Verdon. We had such a good time recapping Smash, all of Smash, that we decided we wanted to keep going down the narrative fiction train of theater TV shows. With its then contemporary storyline, Smash gave us an inside look into Broadway in the early 21st century. But with Fosse Verdon, we see an inside look into two time periods on Broadway, a literally more historic Broadway where the characters reside. But hidden under that layer, we find today's Broadway, through which our modern artists interpret that story. In this mini-series, we will look into how those two eras of Broadway intersect, what is the same and what is very, very different.

We're going back episode by episode to see what this love letter to vintage Broadway tells us about the industry then and how it reflects into the industry today. So let's dive in and talk about Episode 1, Life is a Cabaret. Aaron, give us those stats.

[1:22] Aaron Albano: Happy to, Mo. Life is a Cabaret premiered on April 9th, 2019. It was written by Steven Levinson and directed by Thomas Kail. Uniquely for this episode, the show credited both Mr. Levinson and Kail with creating the story, but only one of them for writing the actual teleplay. The two group numbers we saw, Mine Hair and Big Spender, were both originally choreographed by Bob Fosse, but were reconstructed by Valerie Pettiford and Dana Moore, respectively. Something fun for these modern TV shows, the viewership is now able to be tracked separately between live viewers and viewers who watch on DVR. So fancy. For this pilot episode, the live viewership was 0.614 million and the DVR viewership was 0.729 million, bringing the total viewership to 1.344 million.

[2:09] Mo Brady: Just so we remember, Smash debuted at, what, 12 million?

[2:13] Aaron Albano: A lot more than 1.344.

[2:14] Mo Brady: Well, there's the difference between network television and cable, I guess.

[2:19] Aaron Albano: Oh, yeah. Yeah. Tell us about those numbers.

[2:22] Mo Brady: Let's go. Weird five featured numbers in this premiere. The two songs from Sweet Charity, Big Spender and If My Friends Could See Me Now, were both written by Cy Coleman and Dorothy Fields. While the latter was an excerpt from the original recording, Big Spender was performed and sung by Bianca Marroquin and the Fandango Girls. Also included in this episode were songs from Cabaret, all written by John Kander and Fred Ebb. Vilkeman, which was a recording, as well as Mine Hair and the title song Cabaret, both performed by Kelly Barrett.

[2:51] Aaron Albano: And what happens in this episode, old chum?

[2:53] Mo Brady: You just called me old.

[2:55] Mo Brady: The limited series begins in Hollywood, with 19 years left in the illustrious life and career of Bob Fosse. With his wife and muse Gwen Verdon at his side, he is setting up shots for the song Big Spender in his directorial debut, a feature film version of his hit Broadway musical Sweet Charity, which had opened on Broadway with Verdon as the lead actress less than three years earlier. While Bob is the director, it is clear that Verdon is just as much of a creative force, deconstructing the movement for the dancers and even recommending one of them should be cut when the frame needs to be tightened.

[3:30] Mo Brady: At a party to celebrate the film's opening the following year, Verdon and Fosse host friends and colleagues at their New York City apartment. While the energy is positive, with the attendees entertained by a performance from their young daughter Nicole, the reviews for the film are noticeably less enthusiastic. Of particular note is the New York Times review, which says, "'Sweet Charity' is a movie haunted by the presence of an unseen star, Gwen Verdon. Although Mrs. McLean often looks like Miss Verdon, she never succeeds at recreating the eccentric line that gave cohesion to the original." The box office bust of Sweet Charity makes Bob have to work hard to line up his next film directorial job, which he hopes will be a film adaptation of the 1966 Broadway musical Cabaret.

While the film's producer, Cy Fuhrer, is skeptical that Bob's aesthetic is appropriate for the material, Fosse convinces him by leaning on his experience performing in the USO during World War II. Well, that and going behind Cy's back by speaking to his boss. Fosse lands the job and flies to Munich, Germany, to direct the film two years later. But while he seems in his element visiting a brothel to cast extras and sleeping with his translator, Cy is concerned that Fosse's demand for specificity is going to cost the production millions like his financial flop Sweet Charity. Bob asks Gwen to join him in Munich, where she again saves the show by applying dancer's makeup and even making a 72-hour trip to New York and back to pick up the perfect gorilla costume.

[5:30] Aaron Albano: Well, we're back. We're back, baby. We're back on narrative. It's crazy. I'm excited to talk about this episode. How'd you like this episode? How'd you like this pilot episode?

[5:44] Mo Brady: I think this is great. I think this is, you know, it's insidery. It's not necessarily for the casual television viewer. I think there's like a strong amount of appreciation that you gain when you understand more about the players and the context of the piece.

[6:03] Aaron Albano: I would agree. There's definitely this aspect of if we could even consider Smash as like the theater show for the layman, you have to come into this at an intermediate level of theater love. Right. At least. Did you know a lot about Fosse and Verdon? Bob and Gwen?

[6:19] Mo Brady: Our friends Bob and Gwen. All That Jazz is my favorite movie and there are so many pieces of All That Jazz that are sort of baked into this even though All That Jazz is like a fiction version of Bob Fosse's life. And this is like a more real version of Bob Fosse's life. There's so many similarities. I think that having appreciated All That Jazz so much, I definitely was in like the right mind frame to be enjoying this. What about you? Are you a Fosse aficionado?

[6:51] Aaron Albano: I have an appreciation for Fosse, but I wouldn't say that that extends to a love for Fosse. I remember going to Broadway Theater Project in Florida, where it was Anne Rankin's camp. And so that was like an overloading crash course on Fosse, which being a kid, a dancer from California, the less is more approach to dancing was not in my wheelhouse. I was definitely like a bigger is better dancer. So looking back, I have a lot more appreciation for Fosse and his legacy. But when I was getting possibly the best education in it that I was afforded at the time, I did not take advantage of that education. And so yeah, and because of that, I also kind of only know him in sort of a cursory way. So I'm excited to watch this.

But that said, I love his work. And now looking back, I can appreciate the brilliance of that mind and the brilliance of that artistry. So it's interesting to look back on this sort of behind the emerald curtain. That's not the word behind the velvet curtain of this thing.

[7:57] Mo Brady: What's the emerald curtain? That's the backstage tour at Wicked.

[8:03] Aaron Albano: Yes. You just referenced the backstage tour at Wicked as if it was a thing that everyone knows about. Fantastic. Well, great. So you want to just dive in?

[8:09] Mo Brady: Yeah. So we begin with a bunch of dancers doing Big Spender. We enter the scene at sort of the staging of Big Spender for the movie of Sweet Charity. Outside of watching brilliant ensembles and brilliant dancers getting to be on our TV, does anything else sort of strike you about this scene?

[8:26] Aaron Albano: Well, let's just start there because I do think there's a part of it that is super fun to see the elite Broadway performer of today playing the elite Broadway performer of 50 years ago.

[8:39] Mo Brady: Yes. Yes, absolutely. I'm struck at the sort of level of detail, the attention to detail, right? To see these contemporary Broadway dancers in these like stunning recreations of the original film costume and makeup, I think is just like so exciting. And we should give a shout out to some of those performers. You know, first off, we see Bianca Marroquin and Sasha Hutchings playing Chita Rivera and Paula Kelly, respectively, who are playing Nikki and Helene, the characters in the show.

[9:15] Aaron Albano: Ah, nice. Right. And then we have an ensemble that features Sam Polino, Heather Lang, Paloma Garcia-Lee, Morgan Marcel, Eloise Kropp, Claire Camp. These are some of like the premier Broadway artists of today.

[9:27] Mo Brady: Oh, totally. And so to watch them kind of like embody this, even though it's not the focus of the show, I would say for us to see the number, it definitely sets the tone of the show. Like it sets the bar very high in terms of accuracy and whether we actually like hit that bar every single time in terms of accuracy in this show as a whole. That's beside the point. But we start at a very high level.

[9:52] Aaron Albano: I mean, the two that really stuck out to me were Georgina Poskogen and Bianca Marroquin, both sort of in the middle of the bar. And we all know that iconic picture. What's nice is that they were able to incorporate so much diversity in this line that might not have been there in the 60s.

[10:16] Mo Brady: Oh, probably was not, yeah. Which I think was a cool sort of evolution, which honored that decade's performers, but still showed, nah, we can honor them and still evolve in how we present this story. I thought that was really, really great. How'd you like the scene itself?

[10:35] Aaron Albano: I think this scene is like so beautifully done. One of the things that I'm really enjoying is how interestingly and probably truthfully they are showing how dancers work. Yeah, right. Two of those dancers, of course, are Bob Fosse and Gwen Verdon. But the way that they talk to dancers, the direction, the direction that Gwen gives to the Sweet Charity dancers about how long they've been standing in the heels, five hours, six hours, all you want to do is sit. That idea that this dance is not going to be about the steps, but it's going to be about the intention, I think is just like such a fun way to get to know Bob and Gwen and well, especially Gwen and how Gwen is going to work in the room.

[11:18] Mo Brady: Well, just their dynamic was mind blowing to me and to start the show here, they start the show with this magnifying glass into their dynamic in the room. But what's interesting to me is how, despite like Bob being in charge,

[11:37] Mo Brady: Gwen's running the room. Oh, for sure. Gwen's running the room. She's directing the dancers. She's controlling the frame. When they're like, they don't all fit, she's not Bob. Gwen's the one that's like, cut one of them. Making those decisions despite having maybe the better connection with these dancers because she's giving them the direction and explaining these characters to them because she was in the show. I mean, there's nothing more heartbreaking than being cut from a number, you know? And the sort of efficiency with which she comes to that decision and then decides to be the person to tell that dancer that they're not going to be in the number. It's a little cutthroat. Yeah. With no emotion and yet also, and maybe this is me just layering stuff on top of it, but like, this is, she's the right person to have this conversation.

[12:25] Aaron Albano: Well, she seems to be the right person to have every conversation.

[12:28] Mo Brady: Yeah. Oh my gosh. The way she deals with the executives. She's running, she's running the room.

[12:33] Aaron Albano: What does that mean to you running the room?

[12:38] Mo Brady: I guess it depends. I mean, sort of for me, the best run rooms are when it's a well-oiled machine and everybody can adequately do all of the jobs that they're sort of meant to do.

[12:43] Aaron Albano: Sure. I think what's interesting about this is that we don't really know what Gwen's job is supposed to be.

[12:49] Mo Brady: Yeah. Correct. And yet like without knowing that, like, cause you could assume that she's just like the associate director or an associate or an assistant or whatever. But what found, what I found striking when watching the scene was I was like, is Bob the puppet master or is Gwen the puppet master of this movie? And because this is the first thing we see, ultimately is this their dynamic where Bob has the opportunity, but Gwen's pulling the strings. But it's an interesting dynamic that this show sort of posits right from the top.

[13:25] Aaron Albano: Right. We're supposed to be drawn into this sort of, I wouldn't codependent, but multi-layered relationship between these two people. And it doesn't feel like any of the art that they create really can be done without the other.

[13:37] Mo Brady: Yeah. The quote that you said in your summary, the New York Times review.

[13:44] Aaron Albano: Yeah. I thought that was a great part of the episode. Bob's immediate response is you're the star and you're not even in the movie. And we just watched like the moment before he's reading the reviews and I think it's supposed to be comedic. I mean, it was comedic that he like walks out of the room and jumps off of his balcony. Then fast forward, when we find out the actual content of the review, of the review, is it because Sweet Charity flopped? Or is it because his wife is the star of the movie and she is nowhere even without being there? She has overshadowed him. So he feels like he's like trying to step out of her shadow and he can't even do it. Yeah. And yet he needs her because obviously when we see him trying to be trying to work alone on Cabaret, he calls her and says he needs her to be there.

Not in so many words in well, because we have that whole montage where he's trying to ignore her. And then the movie starts falling apart. And then he calls her this active trying to leave her behind, but then not you're right, he needs her. And it's that idea of when you love someone for their brilliance, but also are threatened by that same brilliance.

[15:07] Mo Brady: I mean, it's one of the ways in which the show puts forth that this is a rough business, you know, like in a different way of Smash, you know, Smash was saying the business is tough. But I think that was because of like backstabbing and lies, right? There was a lot of sort of like interpersonal drama in Smash. This is about the sort of toughness of the entity, right? The memories of Fosse's teacher with the young Fosse, where young Fosse is elegantly presenting this choreography with his teacher barking over his shoulder, there will always be someone better than you.

[15:43] Aaron Albano: Oh, that was such a rough moment. I mean, he even Bob says it when they're visiting the brothel looking to cast prostitutes. Yeah, as extras in the Cabaret film. You know, someone, one of the women who doesn't get chosen says that it's not fair that she wasn't chosen. And he says fair, tell her this isn't fair. It's show business.

[16:06] Mo Brady: Oh my gosh, when he picked the three people that he wasn't gonna pick. That's like such a Chorus Line vibe.

[16:12] Aaron Albano: It's so Chorus Line. I was like, this is so rude. I hate this tactic. It also sort of relates to our Tony conversation about 1976. Right? The sort of realization that the cutthroatness of the business was just that there was so much turnover, shows open shows closed. And it wasn't until A Chorus Line that we had this idea that you could stay in a show for a long time. The business was always kind of be rough.

[16:38] Mo Brady: Yeah. And so that's a clear theme of this.

[16:44] Aaron Albano: Yeah, yeah. But also what's interesting with you bringing up like the differences between what Smash maybe was trying to accomplish and this is trying to accomplish is that show was about the climb to stardom. This show is starting with two stars, and how they navigate maintaining that stardom and where they go from there. Because you watch both of them be at this level with each other, and then try to figure out where their identities are separate from each other. You have Gwen looking for other projects, trying to get Chicago off the ground, reading scripts with Nicole in the kitchen while dinner's being made. And you have Bob over here trying to make this movie. And they're both trying to validate their own brilliance separate from each other.

And they succeed and fail. Yeah, rather than saying we're a package deal. And really, we're better when we're together. I mean, and I think that's where Bob comes to at the end. And he loves it. And he hates it. Sure. Right. There is absolutely 100% dislike. But he it turns him on and it threatens him.

[17:55] Mo Brady: Right? Well, he's actively pushing against it when he's courting Hannah. Yeah, you know, that I mean, he's the he is the one who seeks her out in the bar. He's the one that flirts with her. You know, he's causing the problem. He's taking out sort of that bitterness toward the person he loves with this other woman. Like even the whole thing where she's like, when I come back, like that unspoken conversation they have before she leaves for the gorilla. Yeah, that's beautiful. It's gorgeous. And I was just like, yo, these are two people that know each other. These are two people that know each other. And yet she's like, when I get back, he's like, it will be he knows what she means. And yet, and yet doesn't do it. Correct. And instead of like freaking out when she gets there, he's like resigned. Almost.

[19:01] Aaron Albano: Yeah, the fiction version of this story would be that Gwen comes back with a gorilla suit. She catches Bob with Hannah and she sings "Get Out and Stay Out" from Nine to Five, right? Like she like, like there would be a moment of like empowerment and I learned and I don't need you, right? Sure. And the reality is much more complicated than that. And much more interesting. We're diving into the beginning of a story about the story that is that they are presenting to us about their dynamic, which I assume has truth to it is very complicated and compelling, and super interesting in this chaotic sort of way.

[19:29] Mo Brady: You saw what happened with Sweet Charity, and with Dr. Doolittle, and with Stark, each one of them, big fat flop. Kids in the jungle are being zipped into body bags on the evening news. Richard Nixon is our president, God help us. People aren't going to the movies to escape anymore. They're going to find something true. Um, I do want to bring up one more look one thing that Gwen said towards the end. Before she was leaving to go get the gorilla suit. She's talking to New York City. Everyone knows that New York City is the capital of gorilla suits. I mean, Elmo's, Elmo's and gorilla suits. We got them. She's having this conversation where she's explaining Fosse's sort of concept to Psy. And she says, people aren't going to the movies to escape anymore.

They're going to find something true. Preach. It's, it's like the best speech that she has. I only wish that it was verbatim, something that came out of Gwen Verdon. But that concept, and I think you and I have talked about this ad nauseum at this point, this idea of the value of escapist fluff versus provocative truth art, the way she spells this out.

[21:36] Aaron Albano: Is that the difference? I mean, it's, it's an interesting theory. I don't necessarily think it's true. You know, I think that people sort of oscillate between wanting something that entertains them and something that feels true. And perhaps the best pieces of art can lie somewhere in the middle. But I'm, I'm not going to lie and not tell you I didn't enjoy Emily in Paris in the middle of a worldwide global pandemic. I wanted Ashley Park in a beautiful outfit telling me how super rich she was. Like that was a fun escape. And also I want to watch documentaries about how Roe versus Wade is being chipped away. Like, I think, I don't agree is what I'm saying. I think, I think it's an interesting theory, but I don't agree with it.

[21:41] Mo Brady: Okay, I'm still on the fence, because I think there is definitely truth to the statement. And I wonder if this generation of artistry is sort of where the shift happened and why Cabaret is such a landmark movie. Is this where this sort of shift happened? Yeah, because before this, we're thinking about Oklahoma's or carousels where they may be about more meatier things, but the meat is breaded in a lot of fluff. Correct? Yes. Right. This is like a bare bones mirror, then like a grandiose, beautiful, let's distract you from seeing what's right in front of you. I'm still on the fence. I think this show may have something there.

[22:18] Mo Brady: All right, friends, to keep up to date with next week's recap, be sure to watch episode two of Fosse/Verdon, Who's Got the Pain? You can find episodes on Hulu. The Ensemblist was produced today by me, Mo Brady, and by me, Aaron Albano. There are two great ways you can be helping The Ensemblist right now. One is by leaving us a rating and review on Apple Podcasts. And the second is by becoming a Patreon member at patreon.com slash The Ensemblist. Please follow The Ensemblist wherever you listen to podcasts on Spotify, Apple Podcasts, or at bpn.fm, the home of Broadway Podcast Network. You can also follow us on Instagram. Thanks for listening, everyone. Until next time.