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[0:00] Aaron Albano: Hey, everyone! Aaron here. And Moe, too. Welcome to The Ensemblist.

[0:04] Moe Brady: Now, before we get to our recap of the finale of Fosse/Verdon, we wanted to take a moment to remember Anne Rankin. As you know, we sadly lost this Broadway legend early last week, which was a huge blow to all of us in the theatrical community, both onstage and off.

[0:17] Aaron Albano: We recorded these episodes a few weeks ago, which is why you heard no mention of her passing in last week's and still won't in today's. But it felt wrong to let her death go unmentioned, since her star shines brightly both over this story as well as so many members of the Ensemblist community. So we wanted to raise a glass to Anne Rankin and share what she's meant to both our lives as Broadway artists. Moe, why don't you start?

[0:36] Moe Brady: You know, I don't really have a specific story other than Anne and I are from the same hometown. We're both from Bellevue, Washington. She was kind of that person for me that not made it out, but like proved that you could do it. Someone from so far away from Broadway as the Northwest could make it there and really be successful. I went to her theater camp in Florida, Broadway Theater Project. I didn't really know who Anne Rankin was until I attended that camp. She was sort of my first glimpse into what professional musical theater looked like, what professional Broadway was. Legend, like true legends, true icons, true stars in this field are not as self-involved as we think they are. They do see others and they do see the people that they teach and invest in those people.

It was really, yeah, and that's an experience that I will never forget because she's one of the people who taught me what it's like to really make a mark on this industry. Thank you and thank you, Anne, for everything you've done for this community. You truly are one of the greats. Rest in peace and cheers.

[1:58] Aaron Albano: Cheers. And now back to our regularly scheduled programming. You're listening to Fosse/Verdon from The Ensemblist, the only podcast that shows you Broadway from the inside out. I'm Mo Brady.

[2:07] Aaron Albano: And I'm Aaron Albano. Welcome, listeners, to our miniseries, recapping episodes of FX's Emmy Award-winning limited series Fosse/Verdon. In the show, we see an inside look into two characters as they grapple with the concept of power, the meaning of love, and the value of entertainment in art. We're going back episode by episode to see how this love letter to vintage Broadway tells us greater truths about the industry. So let's dive in and talk about episode eight, Providence. Aaron, give us the stats.

[2:50] Aaron Albano: Happy to, Mo. The Fosse/Verdon finale, Providence, premiered on May 28, 2019. Just like the pilot, its writing credit was separated into two, the story of the episode by Joel Fields and Steven Levenson, while the teleplay itself was written just by Steven Levenson. The episode was directed by Tommy Kail. We saw three pieces of choreography in this finale. Two were performances of Big Spender and If They Could See Me Now, both originally choreographed by Bob Fosse and reconstructed by Mimi Quillin. The third was a father-daughter sequence to Mr. Bojangles between Bob and Nicole, as well as its subsequent plagiarism later in the episode, both choreographed by Nicole Fosse herself.

[3:39] Moe Brady: Okay, that is intense.

[3:40] Aaron Albano: Right? Right? That's a lot. Featured as dancers in this episode are a score of Broadway performers, many we've already seen during the ending flashback sequence, as well as some new faces to the series. Yesenia Adjala, Kate Bailey, Rosie Lonnie Fiedelman, Amber Owens, Ariana Rosario, and Jamie Verison. We had four featured songs in this finale. The two songs from Sweet Charity, written by Cy Coleman and Dorothy Fields, were Big Spender, performed by the show's fictional tour cast, and If My Friends Could See Me Now, performed by both Kelsey Griffin and Michelle Williams. The other two songs are not from musicals. All That Jazz's finale, Bye Bye Life, which exists as a play on the Everly Brothers' Bye Bye Love, written by Boudleaux and Felice Bryant, was performed by Ahmaud Simmons and Lin-Manuel Miranda.

Also performed by Lin is a version of Mr. Bojangles, written by Jerry Jeff Walker. The finale viewership came in at a high of 992 total viewers, third only to the series' first two episodes, with both live and DVR viewership rising from last week. What's nice is the finale's live viewership was the highest it had been since the pilot, so luckily the show went out on a live high.

[4:46] Moe Brady: And what happens in this series finale, Mo?

[4:47] Aaron Albano: Bob is in pre-production for his semi-autobiographical movie, All That Jazz, but the script still has an unsatisfying ending. Patty hits the nail on the head when he tells Bob, the problem with your movie is that your hero doesn't change. In his search for a realistic, if unsatisfying ending, part of the pre-production includes interviewing Gwen about her feelings about putting Bob's next wife, Anne, into roles that she created. Her response? It's pretty familiar. Part of the casting process is Bob auditioning Anne for the role of Katie, a role obviously based on herself. Bob grills her, making Annie run the scene over and over, pleading, why can't you do the scene like it means something to you?

Her response? Because this isn't a scene, this is my life, these are my words, you took our life and you put it into a fucking scene in a movie. Nicole is also watching her life being put into a fucking scene in a movie when she visits the All That Jazz set and watches the conversation she had with her dad being rehearsed by another actress playing her. After creating Roxy in Chicago, Gwen is back where she was just a few years ago, at dinner with her manager, discussing dead ends of career opportunities. She really wants to act but isn't interested in following the work to LA. When Nicole's interest in extracurricular drugs increases, Gwen considers moving her, Ron, and Nicole out of the city.

But dangled with another challenge to the way he sees the world, Bob gives Gwen the role of Roxy on tour, telling her it's your show, it's always been your show. Her now-husband Ron forces Gwen to make a decision, stay with him or be puppeted by Bob, and so she watches him pack up his life and leave. Post-production, everyone is back on their shit, Gwen performing and hosting a medical auction on Staten Island, and Bob recreating conversations he had with Anne both in real life and in the movie with his latest girlfriend. Gwen takes on the task of shadow choreographing the pre-Broadway revival of Sweet Charity, but with the direction missing the heart of the show completely, the only way for the show to work is for them to work as they have always been meant to, side by side, as partners.

[7:05] Moe Brady: The finale, Moe, we're here.

[7:07] Aaron Albano: Okay, I am so struck by the title of this episode.

[7:12] Moe Brady: Yes.

[7:12] Aaron Albano: Providence.

[7:13] Moe Brady: Same, go.

[7:14] Aaron Albano: It's the only title that is not a song, right?

[7:18] Moe Brady: Right, we've had Glory, we've had Life is a Cabaret, there's a lyric, we've had Nowadays, and here it is Providence, which is Nicole's middle name.

[7:28] Aaron Albano: Yes.

[7:29] Moe Brady: And the definition of the word Providence is the protective care of God or of nature as a spiritual power. It hearkens back to the conversation that Joan Simon and Gwen had when Joan was about to pass away in the hospital, where she says, your main job is to take care of your daughter. Right?

[7:49] Aaron Albano: Yeah.

[7:49] Moe Brady: The whole, her middle name means being taken care of.

[7:55] Aaron Albano: Yes, yes.

[7:56] Moe Brady: And so in this journey of Gwen to accepting her motherhood, the last episode is where the show makes a change from being all about musicals to about Nicole.

[8:12] Aaron Albano: This is sort of half-baked, so tell me if you agree or disagree. The rest of the titles of the series have been Bob and Gwen's legacy in the arts. The last episode, the finale, a very prominent place to put the title of a show, is named after Nicole, who is the carrier of their legacy, and arguably their actual legacy is.

[8:39] Moe Brady: And also a huge creative consultant on this show.

[8:45] Aaron Albano: Yes.

[8:45] Moe Brady: So arguably, it's also her legacy.

[8:49] Aaron Albano: Yeah. How'd you like this episode?

[8:51] Moe Brady: Loved it.

[8:51] Aaron Albano: Yeah.

[8:52] Moe Brady: I've loved all of them. This is not Smash. We do not get a stinker in the middle here. This is insanely good television.

[9:01] Aaron Albano: It's a strong show.

[9:02] Moe Brady: And one of the reasons it's such a strong show, we see great performances, but we're really grappling with the idea of creating art.

[9:09] Aaron Albano: Yeah.

[9:10] Moe Brady: Paddy's read of Bob and his movie, the idea that his characters never change, I was like, that is a great, smart take on the legacy of Bob Fosse. And here it's happening, like, I would listen to a TED Talk on that. And here it is being presented not as a TED Talk, but as dialogue. I mean, he's straight up like, this is storytelling 101. Like, he's giving an education to both Bob in this scene, as well as the audience. Like, hey, guess what? This is why you like certain stories. And this is why you hate other stories.

[9:41] Aaron Albano: What's fascinating is that when he says, like, the whole synopsis of All That Jazz, I'm like, this is a synopsis of Fosse/Verdon. Again, because it's Fosse's semi-autobiography, arguably no semi, just a full autobiography, Bob hasn't changed. And Bob basically says it. Arguably, Gwen Verdon also hasn't changed. Where it's compelling is that we see Gwen want to change, but Bob stubbornly staying exactly where he is, almost in spite of his growth throughout his life. Like, he's stagnant on purpose.

[10:18] Moe Brady: Yes.

[10:19] Aaron Albano: The change happens with watching them struggle more and more with that stagnation, with the realization that they are tied together so closely, right? At the beginning, it was the synchronicity of creating who's got the pain. And then we see the strings pulling a little bit with Cabaret, right? We see the space in between their creation together, getting further and further apart, Chicago, right? And then the final thing we see in this whole series is the Sweet Charity revival.

[10:51] Moe Brady: Yeah.

[10:51] Aaron Albano: When they were at their best was when they were both focused on the work.

[10:56] Moe Brady: Together.

[10:56] Aaron Albano: Together. But their primary focus was on the show. I think it's not by accident that this show, Fosse/Verdon, started at the Sweet Charity movie and has ended at the Sweet Charity revival. Because that's not where their collaboration began, but that's where they were best and where their full circle comes to. And that's when they are both focused solely on producing good work.

[11:25] Moe Brady: Every other project, every other experience, every other time we have with them, stuff gets in the way. Either Bob's ego or Gwen's control or their fragility or Bob's infidelity. It's when those things get in the way that they bump up against each other. But with the Sweet Charity revival, all of those things are sort of pushed aside.

[11:50] Aaron Albano: Like this scene, this If My Friends Could See Me Now scene, like, hey, Kelsey Griffin is playing Debbie Allen?

[11:57] Moe Brady: Yeah.

[11:57] Aaron Albano: I didn't know that Debbie Allen originated the Sweet Charity revival. That's fierce.

[12:04] Moe Brady: Yeah.

[12:05] Aaron Albano: And so then this scene where they call in Charity to perform in front of Bob and Gwen is when they're at their strongest. And it's like, again, they put their differences aside, band together for the sake of the art, to make a good show, to make good work.

[12:24] Moe Brady: Well, to protect their own legacy.

[12:25] Aaron Albano: But I don't even think that that's their...

[12:28] Moe Brady: No, that is...

[12:29] Aaron Albano: Yeah. My question then is, why does Bob ask Gwen to perform If They Could See Me Now for Debbie Allen? And then what does the hat passing from Gwen to Bob mean at the end?

[12:47] Moe Brady: I think...

[12:48] Aaron Albano: Go, yeah.

[12:48] Moe Brady: I think that the answer to my first question is fairly simple. It's Bob saying, there's some magic in the way that you performed it. Remind me what that magic is by doing the number.

[12:59] Aaron Albano: Huh, interesting.

[13:00] Moe Brady: Okay.

[13:00] Aaron Albano: Otherwise, it's a really dumb, it's let me be you, right? It's just be like...

[13:04] Moe Brady: It is. It's Bob saying...

[13:07] Mo Brady: Debbie, just do a Gwen Gerrd impression.

[13:09] Aaron Albano: Just do it like Gwen, yeah.

[13:10] Mo Brady: And so, maybe I'm like justifying that in my mind by Bob...

[13:13] Aaron Albano: No, no, no, no, no, no. That makes... I never really thought of it in that way, but what's interesting is what these two characters, what these two people have been fighting against this whole time. Bob's greatest fear is obsolescence. He does not want to feel obsolete. He wants to be remembered. He wants to be famous. He wants people to know his name.

[13:36] Mo Brady: He wants to feel vital also, which is the whole sex thing, right?

[13:39] Aaron Albano: Oh, yeah. Yeah, he wants to feel that. Gwen, she has a fear of expiration. She is past her prime. As much as she, it pains her. We saw in the last episode that she struggled with a faded glory that she has now been forced to accept. And I think what this moment does is Bob saying, Gwen, you show her, is tacitly saying, Gwen, you're still the best person that I've ever seen do this role.

[14:11] Mo Brady: You aren't expired.

[14:15] Aaron Albano: Correct. And her passing the hat to Bob is like, you will be remembered for this. This is your legacy. Like that hat, what we remember from Fosse's entire legacy, hat and white gloves, she has a. This moment, which didn't even hit me until you just mentioned it, I think that's their validation and affirmation for each other to combat their own greatest fears. And they're the only ones who could do that for each other.

[14:45] Mo Brady: What is the difference between obsolescence and expiration?

[14:48] Aaron Albano: I think feeling obsolete feels like no one will remember you. It's about the other's perception. That's sort of how I apply it to Bob's plight. His greatest anger towards the world is that he was never famous. But he wants to be infamous. He wants the legacy. He wants people to know who he was. Every time we saw him, it's been like, hey, I'm a choreographer, too. Hey, I'm a dancer, too.

[15:12] Mo Brady: I was in Pal Joey at City Center.

[15:14] Aaron Albano: Yeah. Every time he chose a project, it was to try to up his standing in the industry. So people knew him as this now.

[15:24] Mo Brady: Expiration is more about like, you've done the thing. You've proved yourself. And the fear of expiring is like you're ripe and now you're not.

[15:35] Aaron Albano: You'll never do it again.

[15:36] Mo Brady: You were fresh and now you're not. Yeah. Like it's being past your prime. With Bob and Gwen, Gwen had the notoriety. And her fear is that she won't have the notoriety because her own body will not allow her to do that anymore. Bob is more fearful that he will be forgotten.

[15:56] Aaron Albano: And this is why I'm sort of like struck by how good the show is, is all of the dialogue that we saw in the very first episode where Gwen is coming to get Bob to go to the theater right before he dies, right? Bob saying, it isn't time yet. You're early. I'm not ready. That whole sense of like, I'm not ready to be obsolete. And what's remarkable about all of that dialogue is it means two things, right? It's Bob talking about Gwen coming to pick him up to take him to the theater. It's also like death knocking at his door.

[16:35] Mo Brady: And then Gwen, her dialogue after Bob has had the seizure in front of the theater is her saying, nobody's going to start anything without you. Like it's also the double meaning. It's like, yes, this performance of Sweet Charity will not start without you. But like, don't worry, you are not obsolete. I think that's where their legacies sort of diverge. Like there is an acceptance. We get old. That's what happens. We can jump and then we can't jump. We can kick and then we can't kick. Like there's an innate acceptance that Gwen undergoes. Like she's, for lack of a better term, associate choreographing the Sweet Charity revival.

[17:14] Aaron Albano: She wanted to do this. She knows she's not going to be playing charity. She's passing the torch. Like Debbie Allen's, it's Debbie Allen's turn now. Like even when she's talking to Bob about the production by the payphones or whatever, like she's like, this cast is great. Like, but you need to work with them. They're talented. Someone less confident and someone less accepting of who she is would not be able to say that. Bob has never been that guy.

[17:41] Mo Brady: We're being told, and in fact, Bob tells us that Gwen is the premier interpreter of his work, right? So we're watching this entire film being produced, where Bob is trying to be the premier interpreter of his own work. He's created this autobiographical movie. He's casting his girlfriend in the role of his girlfriend. He's not casting his daughter in the role of his daughter. He's playing the role of himself in a non-filmed run through of a bedazzled funeral, right?

[18:15] Aaron Albano: Yeah.

[18:15] Mo Brady: But then in the end, Gwen was actually the better person to be interpreting his work for the world.

[18:22] Aaron Albano: Ah, interesting. Yeah.

[18:24] Mo Brady: That's the reason that he like couldn't do with all that jazz what he wanted to do, because he was trying to tell his own story. And what this series is telling us is that Gwen is the best person to tell Bob's story. And Eliza is the best person to tell Alexander's story.

[18:42] Aaron Albano: See, it all comes back to Hamilton.

[18:44] Mo Brady: My favorite thing about this episode specifically, about all that jazz, is I find it fascinating how he lost the Tony to a chorus line where the creator made tapes of conversations and put it on stage. And now Bob decided to do the same exact thing, with his movie.

[19:00] Aaron Albano: That's so interesting. Like the opening of all that jazz, the opening montage is an audition sequence that feels so much like a chorus line.

[19:09] Mo Brady: Oh, yeah. Yeah.

[19:10] Aaron Albano: I mean, it feels like the first scene of a chorus line.

[19:13] Mo Brady: It's fascinating how, and again, like we can't even say anything because all that jazz got so much acclaim. But it has this air of such selfish work, when he has stolen all this material from other people.

[19:29] Aaron Albano: Yeah.

[19:29] Mo Brady: He stole Anne's story. He stole Gwen's story. He stole his own daughter's story. He stole the Michael Bennett devices. I mean, is this where we learn the best work is done from a generous place? And when it's selfish, it has that feeling to it? I don't know.

[19:51] Aaron Albano: I mean, it makes the word best subjective. Like, I wouldn't say that all that jazz is not a good movie.

[19:57] Mo Brady: But sure, sure, sure.

[19:59] Aaron Albano: But I guess it is a self-centered movie. In fact, it might be the most self-centered movie.

[20:05] Mo Brady: Yeah.

[20:06] Aaron Albano: But yet, we keep coming back to this, right? He created a movie about himself. Then there was a Broadway show that was based on him. And then there's a miniseries that's based on all those things. We're diving back and back and back into this.

[20:22] Mo Brady: Yeah.

[20:23] Aaron Albano: So if we're looking at Bob, in relationship to control, what does the Bye Bye Life scene tell us about legacy and control? Okay, so in the movie, Ron Schneider is playing the role of Joe, which is based on Bob.

[20:39] Mo Brady: Yeah.

[20:39] Aaron Albano: In Fosse-Verdon, we've got Lin-Manuel Miranda playing Roy Schneider.

[20:43] Mo Brady: Roy Schneider.

[20:43] Aaron Albano: Playing Joe Gideon.

[20:45] Mo Brady: Playing Joe, playing Bob.

[20:46] Aaron Albano: Playing Bob.

[20:47] Mo Brady: So-

[20:47] Aaron Albano: Oh my God.

[20:48] Mo Brady: Roy runs the scene in which it's basically like Roy running up and down the aisles of a theater in a house packed with people from his life and also ghosts congratulate him on his great achievements. It's like the curtain call of his life, basically. So we watch the scene being filmed. Bob says, that looks like fun. Roy offhandedly says, you should try it. And then they run this whole scene-

[21:18] Aaron Albano: Yeah.

[21:18] Mo Brady: Where Bob is being congratulated and applauded for his incredible run-

[21:26] Aaron Albano: Yeah.

[21:26] Mo Brady: That he has facilitated, right?

[21:28] Aaron Albano: Yeah, that he's made up himself.

[21:30] Mo Brady: Yes.

[21:30] Aaron Albano: I think that's where it is because after he's done with it, either he says or someone, I think someone else says, they're like to everybody on set, like, all right, we're going to do the real thing now. That wasn't the real thing. Bob's not the real thing. I think that's what-

[21:46] Mo Brady: Or is that not the real legacy?

[21:48] Aaron Albano: No, of course not.

[21:49] Mo Brady: Because Gwen and the way that she interprets his work is the real legacy.

[21:55] Aaron Albano: I think that's-

[21:55] Mo Brady: He's made this whole movie to try to make himself non-obsolete.

[22:01] Aaron Albano: Correct.

[22:02] Mo Brady: But the answer was always in front of him.

[22:04] Aaron Albano: I think that's what By My Life is about. He's trying to force this legacy of his own hand. He's making and contriving this legacy for himself. All the while, this asshole, his daughter has taken drugs and drink to stay up and wait for him on the couch. And he comes home, he's like, oh, you're still up? With a woman in tow that he's going to bed later.

[22:32] Aaron Albano: Like-

[22:33] Mo Brady: Oh, yeah. And when he finds out that she's done drugs, he's like, well, you made an adult decision. So you got to deal with the adult consequences. There's no babying there.

[22:43] Aaron Albano: And again, I'm just like, your daughter is legitimately asking you-

[22:48] Mo Brady: To parent her.

[22:49] Aaron Albano: She's crying out for help from you. And you couldn't be bothered. Like, that's where I'm just like, Bob wants a great legacy, but has no concept of what creating a good legacy looks like.

[23:03] Mo Brady: And I think that's what By My Love stands in, is that he's desperate to control and mold a legacy for himself. And what we learn in this show is that the way to do that is to entrust your legacy to other people. What do we learn from the epilogue scrawls? We learn that Fosse passed away. We then learn that Gwen took up, like in full Eliza form, took up his legacy and created a show that features their legacy, but it's presented as his legacy.

[23:38] Aaron Albano: Like you said it before, it's not called Fosse Verdon. It's not called Verdon Fosse. It's called Fosse. And she is credited as what? Artistic advisor.

[23:47] Mo Brady: The orphanage.

[23:50] Aaron Albano: Mm hmm. But like Gwen's perfectly fine doing this. She did it. I'm sure she could have been within her rights to do it.

[23:57] Mo Brady: But Gwen knew from the beginning how to sort of make her power known in the business, which was to sort of manipulate arguably the men around her to feature her in the best way possible.

[24:11] Aaron Albano: And she learned later on that the best way possible was ultimately through Bob's work.

[24:17] Mo Brady: And then Nicole leaves the business and the city and struggles for a long time with substance abuse because of the damage that arguably Bob, but both of her parents did to her.

[24:29] Aaron Albano: And yet she has now come back after healing, or maybe the show was part of the healing. She created this show showcasing her late parents. Like, I don't know, it's interesting because again, amidst all this damage, like I said, like in our first episode, I went to Anne Ranking's camp in the year 2000, where it was all Fosse all the time. Anne, who created the Chicago revival, she and Gwen had a hand in the conception of Fosse. In the year that I went there, Gwen Verdon taught us who got the pain. And that was the last time she taught before she passed away. Like I was able to work with Gwen Verdon before she died. And all through that entire experience, that legacy is being upheld by these women who, taking this show as fact, would be well within their rights to wash their hands of him. But they haven't. This legacy lives.

[25:28] Mo Brady: Thanks for joining us on this RL journey through Fosse Verdon. We've enjoyed the chance to revisit this fantastic show and we hope you have too. The Ensemblist was produced today by me, Mo Brady.

[25:39] Aaron Albano: And by me, Aaron Albano. There are two great ways you can be helping The Ensemblist right now. One is by leaving us a rating and review on Apple Podcasts. And the second is by becoming a Patreon member at patreon.com slash The Ensemblist.

[25:51] Mo Brady: And if you want to learn more about how to become a Patreon member,

[25:53] Aaron Albano: and the second is by becoming a Patreon member at patreon.com slash The Ensemblist.

[25:58] Mo Brady: Please follow The Ensemblist wherever you listen to podcasts on Spotify, Apple Podcasts, or at bpn.fm, the home of Broadway Podcast Network.

[26:06] Aaron Albano: You can also follow us on Instagram.

[26:08] Mo Brady: Thanks for listening, everyone!