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[0:16] Michael Vatica: Hi! You're listening to The Shows We Need from The Ensemblist, the only podcast that shows you Broadway from the inside out. I'm Michael Vatica.

[0:43] Michael Vatica: Yee-haw! You guessed it! This week, we're throwing it back to the country with Oklahoma! Now, this series is focused on newer material, but the age-old question when a new revival is announced is, why now? Why this show? The revival of Oklahoma! in 2019 took a show that so many people know and it truly opened my eyes to new themes and new thoughts through a really cool production, Sans the Frills. Cast member Will Mann talked to me about how it was created and why some of these choices were made. Here's our conversation.

[1:26] Michael Vatica: Hi! Who do we have here today? And what are your preferred pronouns? And where are you calling from?

[1:36] Will Mann: My name is Will Mann. He, him. I'm calling from Brooklyn. I'm in New York still. I'm one of the ones who stayed. Woo-woo!

[1:45] Michael Vatica: Same! Brooklyn! I want to talk about the revival of Oklahoma at Circle in the Square. For listeners who might not have done their homework, what is Oklahoma about?

[1:55] Will Mann: What is Oklahoma about? It's a snapshot about Oklahoma before it was a state. It was still a territory and about normal, regular folks and their intertanglings and love triangle dramas. And it was created at a time where Broadway was very, like, hyper animated and they created these accents and super happy-go-lucky characters to lift the spirits of Americans, essentially. And in the revival, we kind of stripped off all of the surface things and got down to what the true story of the show was about. This revival opened my eyes to the true enormity of some of the themes in the show, even after having performed in it, having seen other productions.

[2:35] Michael Vatica: When you all were in rehearsal, did the director, Daniel Fish, have specific ideas about how he wanted to update the show for a modern audience?

[2:43] Will Mann: I think what Daniel was always focused on was the truth. Like, we're going to take this script word for word and find the truth on every page. And we're not going to play at the truth, we're just going to tell the truth. It seems so basic that it should be everybody's mantra, but having it being approached that way felt revolutionary. And I think because we took off all of the accents and all of the shiny and the dance numbers and the big production value of the show that usually takes place, when you get down to the real words, it's a really gritty story. And it hits at the heart of human behavior and desire and what people dream for themselves and how those dreams get fulfilled or not down.

[3:31] Will Mann: To be honest, when my agent sent me the audition, I was like, ooh, I mean, I've done—we all did Oklahoma, right? We've done it. And it's like, I would like to play Judd Frye again. That's something I hadn't done since high school and something that a big black man doesn't get an opportunity to do very often. So I was like, if they want to see me for Judd Frye, I'll go and I'll sing. And they didn't want to see me for that. I remember that the audience was fully lit for the first 15 or so minutes of the show. And I remember as an audience member being super uncomfortable and really aware that I needed to be an active viewer. Why did he make that choice?

[4:09] Will Mann: It forces the audience to not relax. Like you said, the way it's set, the idea of the location for the show is in a big town hall. Traditionally, in these small towns, the town hall would be the multipurpose for every event, right? So everyone was there, but not only was the cast there, the audience was also in that location. You were forced to be in the same place with us at the same time, which translates later. I guess we don't really care about spoilers, right? At the end, when all of these very traumatic things happen, when someone gets away with murder, the audience isn't just a viewer of what's going on. They are participating in the complicitness of this horrific act. I told my mom what the director told us.

We, the other people on stage, did not object to what was happening blatantly in front of our faces. And because the audience is also in the same room with us, they have an opportunity to say something, to do something about something horrific, and they choose not to. So making that choice makes the audience member just as complicit as the people on stage for this horrific thing that happens.

[5:18] Michael Vatica: Right, so let's skip to the end of the show, where we see a murder happen on stage. And I feel like I remember the cast taking a moment to let that sink in, and it was so powerful. I never realized that the stakes of the show were so high. Thinking about it now, how do you think seeing something like that on stage today would read differently than it did even two years ago?

[5:44] Will Mann: I mean, I am Black in America. I've been Black for 37 years. I grew up in Southern California. I'm wearing my Black Boy Joy t-shirt. I was a child during the Rodney King beatings. I have been scared for my life at every encounter with the police. So the events of last summer and the protests for George Floyd and Breonna Taylor and the awakening for a lot of people who hadn't been paying attention is tardy. It's late to the party, period. And so I, as an actor on that stage every night, it was really, really hard to do. The show was very difficult for me. And especially at the St. Ann's run off Broadway before we came to Broadway, friends would come or people would just want to be there and celebrate you after the show.

And it was just like, I got to go home and wash this off of me on a daily basis. The show was not acting. We stripped every fallacy away. So the reality of murder and of complicit community that lets people get away with murder and judicial system that rewards murderers, it hit home on a daily basis.

[7:00] Will Mann: We had, I'm forgetting the name of the school, the shooting, the school shooting in Florida. We had one of those students come visit the show and they spoke after the show. And I knew that they were there the whole time and just absorbing, watching this gun violence while knowing a child who is the direct victim of gun violence was watching. And just every night was another traumatic moment. And I don't think, I mean, maybe for some audience members who have been oblivious to all of the gun violence and trauma and murder and terribleness of our country's past, present and future, maybe it'd feel different for them now. But for those of us who have been in the know and who have lived these experiences, it's a tale as old as time.

[7:46] Michael Vatica: Totally. Speaking of trauma, this revival took the Dream Ballet in a new direction.

[7:53] Will Mann: Yes. Yes. And this act of sexual violence was shown in a really unique way. Can you tell us about that?

[8:06] Will Mann: Essentially, in Oklahoma, for those who don't know, Lori buys some suspicious smelling salts, basically some drugs off of a peddler and has a fever dream. Traditionally, it's played by a dancer who's dressed and looks just like Lori, and she experiences and relives some of the things we already saw in the play and kind of twists into a darker nightmare experience. Our ballet was danced by one person, Gabrielle Hamilton. She interpreted the art with our choreographer, John Higginbotham, to tell a story that wasn't concrete clear. It wasn't pantomime. It wasn't a reenactment. It was an exploration in womanhood and growth and figuring out yourself. And some of those things were kind of not laid on you as an audience. The audience had to kind of interpret and watch and absorb and be confronted by her experience and interpret what that meant for them and for her. But it's loud. It's a rock guitar. That recording that you heard was played by Damon Dono.

[9:13] Will Mann: He created that. Dave and Donna R. Curley played guitar throughout the show acoustically. But what we ended up with was, I think, gorgeous. This solo, this like 15-minute solo. She would stare at people in their eyes two feet away and confront them and make them feel it. And that's just like, girl. Yes, it was so powerful what she did. Like you said, Lori is typically played by somebody who looks like her. And Gabrielle is a black woman portraying Lori, who is also played by a black woman, Rebecca Naomi Jones. Now, Oklahoma! historically was probably written about a town of white people. How do you feel the inclusion of people of color in these typically white roles was used to tell the story?

I feel like Daniel Fish never made any accidents, really. He thinks about every detail. And the race of each character was intentional. Well, okay, so race has always been a part of the story. In the original story, the play, the book before the play, the character of Judd, the farmhand, was Native American, something we don't often remember or know. So race has always played an element in the love triangle confusion. And in our show, the central love interest, the one that everyone wants to be in love with, is a black woman. And I think that's pretty powerful, not only for representation, but for storytelling. And my character didn't have a last name. So I always said that we were cousins on her daddy's side, not on Aunt Ella's side.

Anthony Kasem played the federal marshal. And the idea that this black man was in this position of authority and being ignored and steamrolled by the white community, basically warning him, like, if you don't let Curly get away with this murder, you could be the next one. That stuff was all very intentional. The moment that shook me most was the scene with Curly and Judd in the smokehouse. It was truly terrifying. Can you tell us about that?

[11:21] Will Mann: So leading up to it, Curly finds out that someone else is also interested in Lori. And in our production, Lori isn't clear cut about who she wants to be with. Judd provides a danger that I think is attractive to her. Anyway, so Curly finds out that someone else has interest in her. And so his solution to the problem is to go convince this simpleton in his mind to kill himself. And it's always been there. It was just played in a different manner. So like you said earlier, the audience was in full light the entire show up until that moment. And I feel like you get comfortable knowing that, okay, well, we're just going to be in light the whole time. And in the smokehouse where Judd lives, it is a dark, dank, dangerous place.

And that is the first time the lights go out in the entire theater. And they don't arise on the stage. It's just black for about 10 minutes. And all you have is your aural experience until some black light camera shenanigans and projections show you close ups of each actor's face. And you get to see the story played out intimately on an entire wall of the theater. I didn't see that scene until months into the production. That was the only scene where the cast had to be removed from the stage. And I hadn't seen it because I was changing or I was in the dressing room or whatever until months in. And then I snuck in into the VOM and I sat there and I experienced it and like bawled my eyes out. And I never knew what was happening out there and how powerful Patrick Vale is, who played Judd.

He's just a giant. And Damon Dono. Damon Dono played that guitar solo live while singing in the complete darkness. I want to mention the very talented Ali Stroker, who played town vamp Ado Annie. Can you tell us a bit about how she gives the audience a refreshing new take on sexy?

[13:18] Will Mann: For those who don't know, Ali Stroker is in a wheelchair. She doesn't have the use of her legs or her diaphragm. She told me that she can't feel anything below her boobs. And I was like, how is it possible that you can breathe, let alone sing like a freaking angel eight shows a week and you can't feel your core? Like flabbergasted? I really can't speak to Ali's casting. I don't think they were looking for a girl in a chair. Right. You know what I mean? I think Daniel was just open and a girl came in and killed it. And her disability wasn't a hindrance to her performance. And that is something that we all like, just we as performers want. We all just want to be accepted for who we are and let our talent shine through.

And so often there are gatekeepers and superficial things that get in the way of what we know is excellence. Ali's sexiness is also pretty undeniable. She's a sexy lady and her earnestness and her honesty and her truth about being a young woman, enjoying her sexuality is revolutionary. We just as a society decided she was fast or loose or slutty or it was comical because she liked sex when in actuality, it's liberating to be a woman and not I mean, I don't know. Right. But to see a woman unabashedly love her body and love herself and discover what it is to be a sexually charged adult. And she's such an inspiration. My goodness, all the other people in the world who we had so many people come to the show with a myriad of disabilities and on all levels.

And you could see how truly inspired people are by representation. And I know that her paving this way will make room for more. And that's so brilliant and exciting. What her presence did for us, a lot of all Broadway theaters are so old and they're not really built for handicapable situations. So her being there meant that we had to build an entire backstage that was wheelchair accessible. We had to be mindful of where and how people in wheelchairs and differently abled people got to see the show and where they sat and how they were taken care of. Her very presence changes the atmosphere because you're not going to deny her gifts and what she offers to the show. So we have to pull up to meet what is needed.

[16:04] Will Mann: Last question. Did you all change anything in the script from its original version? Oklahoma, its original production on Broadway, they would hire these very classically trained singers and very classically trained actors and very classically trained dancers. So in the script, instead of saying your it would be spelled Y.E.R. because they wanted to force the actors to adopt this accent that they had planned out for the show. So all of those were changed, but the actual words themselves were not.

[16:46] ♪ Musical number: "People Will Say We're in Love" — performed by Will Mann and cast ♪

[17:09] Will Mann: Well, there you have it. Script changes or not. Human nature, probably unfortunately, is recognizable in the oldies, too. I loved this production. And while it may have been polarizing to Rodgers and Hammerstein purists, it's such a great example of how to take a golden age show and through direction and creativity only bring it into the modern day. Also, this cast recording is really great. So please go and jam and enjoy. That's all for now.

[17:45] Michael Fatica: Special thanks to Will Mann for sharing his story with us. The Ensemblist was produced today by me, Michael Fatica, Jackson Klein and Mo Brady. There are two great ways you can help the Ensemblist right now. One is by leaving us a rating and review on Apple Podcasts. The other is by becoming a Patreon member at patreon.com slash the Ensemblist. Please follow us wherever you listen to your podcasts on Spotify, Apple Podcasts or at bpn.fm, the home of the Broadway Podcast Network. You can also follow us on Instagram. Thanks for listening. Until next time.