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[0:21] Mo Brady: You're listening to The Ensemblist, the only podcast that shows you Broadway from the inside out. I'm Mo Brady.

[0:34] Mo Brady: In our inaugural conversation for this miniseries, Backstage Magazine's awards editor Jack Smart and I dove into the topic of how to award ensembles.

[0:56] Mo Brady: But one of the first roadblocks we came to was the question, what is an ensemble? Sometimes, the term ensemble refers to the full company of performers on stage, regardless of the size of their roles or billing on a show poster. Other times, ensemble refers to the singers and dancers of a production, those facilitating the journey of the leading characters, rather than experiencing that journey themselves. Is one of these two definitions of an ensemble more worthy of awards than the other? Is one harder to create? Is one more vital for creating excellent theater? I thought the one way to parse out these questions would be to speak to someone who has created both kinds of ensembles.

[1:42] Mo Brady: Eva Price is a Tony Award-winning producer for her work spearheading the recent Broadway revival of Rodgers and Hammerstein's Oklahoma. Originally conceived for a cast of principals and chorus, this revival directed by Daniel Fish did away with the show's traditional chorus and made an ensemble of 12 leading characters. Eva is also one of the lead producers of Jagged Little Pill, a Broadway musical with a chorus of 13 performers that work as the conscience of the show's leading characters. She recently joined me to talk about these two different kinds of ensemble and how in the commercial Broadway theater, awards for performances can make or break a show's life. Here's our conversation.

[2:37] Mo Brady: Hi, Eva, would you introduce yourself and tell us your job?

[2:43] Eva Price: I'm Eva Price. I'm a three-time Tony-winning Broadway producer and my job is to be a Broadway producer.

[2:50] Mo Brady: And you produce some good shit. I'm going to explain what I mean by that. A, just like art that I think really hits people in an emotional way. I think one thing that we think about what the Constitution means to me, Oklahoma, Slave Play, Jagged Little Pill. These are shows that have meat to the bones. And also, as the ensemblist, these are pieces that explore and use ensembles in such beautiful ways. I thought, what a perfect person to have this conversation where I'm just trying to kind of figure out, like, is there a way to celebrate theatrical ensembles and award them? Because it doesn't even seem like there's a clear vision of how that could happen and what we would be celebrating.

[3:36] Eva Price: Oh, no, I think about this a lot. I think you're right. Celebrating our ensemble is not only a necessary, relevant and vital thing that we all should be doing as an industry and as producers, but it is not present enough. To me, the ensemble, especially of a musical, is the beating heart of that musical. We talked a little bit about my show, Jagged Little Pill. We actually call our ensemble The Conscience. That's the brilliance of Diane Paulus and the brilliance of Diablo Cody and Sidney Larbee-Chercowi, our choreographer. A group of people who come in and out all evening long, who change the temperature of the room, who change the energy of the room, who allow the principals to be their best selves in terms of how they are feeling, in terms of what they are saying, in terms of how they are breathing in that room.

[4:24] Eva Price: In Jagged Little Pill specifically, they are there to be a barista and be a churchgoer, but they are there to be us as the audience, to watch with open eyes, hearts and minds, and to connect the audience directly to those principals with what is truly going on within. It's what we created privately for the room and for the cast to grow into. It's probably one of the reasons why, at least at Jagged, we have had the exact same ensemble from workshop number one to Broadway opening, for the most part. I'd say like 99% the same, because they were building the world and the scaffolding that the stories and the emotions of Jagged Little Pill are connected through.

[5:11] Eva Price: Yeah, you're alluding to that idea that the business of Broadway often means that the ensemble consists of the understudies. When we're building a big musical, the ensemble will also often be the people who cover the leads. And yes, your ensemble does that, but because they've been involved from the beginning, they have more of a, they have been part of the creation of the piece. They have a stake in the storytelling. They have a stake in the character development. They have a stake in the energy that's bouncing between all the bodies on stage. I haven't developed a lot of new musicals as a lead producer, so I haven't been on the ground floor of others, but I can say for Jagged Little Pill, I don't know of another way to develop a new musical, but then to have stakeholders in your ensemble, exactly like you're right, who are there to do more than cover tracks. They're there to build a universe.

[6:06] Mo Brady: So one of the questions I'm having when we're talking about celebrating ensembles is what are we celebrating? Because we can celebrate those who are not on a principal contract, and perhaps that's a good thing to celebrate. Perhaps another thing to celebrate would be collaborative storytelling beyond the color of an actor's contract. How does a company of principals like you have with your revival of Oklahoma exhibit excellence in ensemble work when there is no ensemble?

[6:37] Eva Price: There are so many fascinating things about our company of Oklahoma, not to mention that they were 11 of the most glorious human beings I've ever been in contact with. They, as you recall, are on stage all night long. They disappear for the Dream Ballet and a couple of entrances and exits, but for Act One, they don't move. They are there. They are observing the scenes. They are building the community. They are creating judgment. They are allowing laughter. They are raising tension and stakes in the storytelling and in between the characters by their mere presence. That is the genius of Daniel Fish, a hundred percent in that vision and in that intention.

[7:24] Eva Price: Talk about changing the temperature. By being in the presence and playing the role of the audience, just like we play, they are reacting. They are having judgment, throwing shade. They are applauding and enjoying. Through their nonverbal cues, they are creating something larger for the audience as a whole because we are all in the same room. That is the point of this production of Oklahoma, that we are all in the same room experiencing the same things.

[7:54] Mo Brady: And if that's the case, then we, the audience, are having a parallel experience to they, the ensemble, on stage.

[8:04] Eva Price: I love what you're saying about that ensemble in Oklahoma, about helping us as an audience respond because we're all in the same room together. That production of Oklahoma surprised me as someone who knows the text Oklahoma, right? Because I was being asked to look at music and words that I know in a new light.

[8:26] Eva Price: And I don't know if those cues would have been as clear if you didn't have that group of people watching that were helping me as an audience member go on this reimagining of this story.

[8:38] Mo Brady: That's exactly the point. That is exactly Daniel Fish's point of how to use the ensemble, because you're right. We all know the text. We all know those songs. We know how they're supposed to sound and what they made us feel when we saw them in the second grade at our big sister's production at the local high school. We thought we've been there, seen it, done it. And then this production of Oklahoma came on the stage and told everyone that walked in the door, no, you haven't actually seen the show. No, you don't quite know the show. No, there's something else going on with the show.

[9:12] Eva Price: And the reason, going back to the ensemble, is we're in a community of 11 people. Usually Oklahoma is a community of 27 people, but 11 people could tell the story more darkly, could tell the story more seriously, more emotionally. You had that because other than our principals, you had five really hardworking individuals.

[9:33] Mo Brady: What I love about what you're saying about Jagged and Oklahoma is that not every production needs the same number of personnel to create an emotionally visceral journey for an audience. And that's sort of the question I'm having around this idea of how to award ensembles. We can award a troupe of dancers for their incredible skill as dancers. That is something to be celebrated. And we can also celebrate this idea of collaborative storytelling and energy setting and room temperature control and audience guiding. If you got to create an award for theatrical ensembles, what would your criteria be?

[10:20] Eva Price: With shows that the success of what you see on stage actually is top-down, meaning it's hierarchical. If there is an environment where people can feel safe, where people can feel happy, where people can be expressing the best version of themselves because their bosses and the leadership team have allowed for that, and the creative team have allowed for that, you actually see that on stage. You hear lots of stories about like, that show crashed and burned when it got to Broadway. And then you find out that everyone hated each other the entire time out of town. The director stormed out of rehearsals every day. It's like, well, that's why the art didn't really work. So I actually think the criteria and the big picture of the ensemble's success on stage also elicits a beauty offstage within the group of people.

We are talking about a group of people who not only are incredibly talented, but are big, open-hearted people who are generous in spirit and who are giving and who are allowing and working hard for the whole and not out there every night or back at home every day and every night working only for themselves. I do think there's a large connection between the ethos of the backstage experience and the ethos of the success of the onstage experience. I believe that the success of the ensemble is generated from a holistic approach to the show's development. That includes a recognition and understanding and a respect for every single member of the company. That includes everyone realizing, yes, we are in a hierarchical industry with private dressing rooms and top billing and things like that, but that the whole is really the sum of the parts.

That means that the work that the ensemble is doing on the stage is reflective of that spirit that I talked about just now from backstage and is talented in a way, not that everyone's a triple threat and the greatest dancer or singer or actor, but that everyone is the best version of themselves. Sorry to go back to Jagged Little Pill for a sec, but I actually think that's what we do so perfectly. Everyone is a unique being and everyone is the best version of that unique being. We've crafted a show that expressed everyone's unique being rather than fitting them into a box. That is the criteria, which I guess I would just say is safety, singularity, and openhearted love. Those are the things that actually truly make a great ensemble. It is both the offstage and onstage example.

[12:58] Mo Brady: Well, I love that. But if I'm sitting in the house with a list of things I'm supposed to be voting on, best sound design, how am I to adjudicate the safety backstage? You're getting at a great point, which is ensemble comes from a holistic feeling that it happens offstage and is reflected onstage. I mean, obviously, that's your job. You hire all of these talented people to create the thing onstage and your job is to sort of put all the pieces together and make sure that that all works, right? That's your gig. As a voter, how do I adjudicate safety? Do you see what I mean?

[13:35] Eva Price: So you think as a voter that someone's sitting in there and being like, I know this is great sound design. I can tell because the decibels equal the pH balance of the drum sound. No, no, no, no, no. I love that we think voters are that savvy and knowledgeable about sound design, but they're not. They're going to vote for the thing that makes them feel is the best sound design. And I think the same can be true of the direction, can be true of the lighting. The adjudication isn't actually, maybe not every voter, but I'd say the majority of voters are adjudicating based on their experience of the art form. And if their experience of the art form of an ensemble is a collective spirit, giving love, sharing love, performing with their hearts wide open and performing the shit out of that number.

And they're creating a musical theater going experience that is in the heavens, then that's an ensemble worth voting for because the energy and the drive and the spirit of the production is coming at you on a decibel that is indistinguishable from magic. And that's going to be the criterion, not a particular kick line or specificity of a move. It's going to be the holistic experience in which the voter is elicited a feeling that this ensemble has just delivered the best.

[15:08] Mo Brady: God, I love that. You sold me. Just to toot your own horn, I'll never forget the opening moments of Jagged. I listened to that overture a lot. It brings up feelings in me of that chorus, that consciousness coming up to me, and me just being in my seat being like, what the fuck is happening? They just come at you with such specific energy, which is what you're speaking to that was just truly thrilling as a theater goer.

[15:34] Eva Price: That's the genius of Tom Kitt and Alanis Morissette for writing the music that one can do that energy inducing feeling with.

[15:42] Mo Brady: My last question for you, because I don't think we're going to solve it today is, you know, this business better than I do. And you know how things happen. What are some of the challenges or stumbling blocks of me walking into Schubert Alley and being like, Hey, everybody, I got this idea. We're going to celebrate energy. What challenges am I going to face in my push to try to make that happen?

[16:06] Eva Price: You're going to face some commercial challenges, Mo. Just the fact that we live in a world where we are awards driven because of single stars. We are celebrity driven because of a single name. We are often moved and pushed to take action because of specificity and not because of generality. Ensemble in its very definition is a general term. It's for a collective. It's for a group. We as commercial consumers can't really wrap our heads around the group, which is why in marketing 101, they teach you sell the specific, even if you think you're limiting your audience because people need to be able to hang on to something specific when they're buying. Broadway is a commercial theater. We have to worry about our commercial aspects.

It's hard to think about how we can monetize and celebrate a collective in that way. It's so cynical of me to answer it that way. But just being a realist and pragmatist, it's hard to think that we'll move to a place of celebrating an ensemble because it could be viewed by certain stars of taking something away from them. I'm wrong. I'm hoping the great shift that the world is about to go through and see and feel may democratize everything, including award ceremonies, including pay hierarchies and billing. The answer is it's going to not because we're still a commercial environment that means we still celebrate stars. I actually can't logically think of a way of marrying the two that celebrates the ensemble sort of separately and distinctively in that very crass commercial way, which is what I think you're asking about, which is awards.

[18:00] Mo Brady: Well, if I think of a way, I'll bounce it off of you.

[18:04] Eva Price: Yeah. Let's find a way. I'd like to do that because like you said, my two shows had kick ass ensembles. I would have loved a couple more Tonys for them. And to have, yes, I think the awards, the things to hang your marketing on, the things to say, look, you did the thing that you wanted to do when you were a kid. You've been celebrated in our art forms, quote unquote, highest way to bolster the thing that you're believing in as a creator. You have put your heft behind pieces of art that are about an energy. And so to sort of reinforce that as like your life's work would be a great thing.

[18:44] Eva Price: Yeah. I always thought it was really interesting at Oklahoma. Circle in the Square being a theater of 645 seats, I think was our capacity. It changes pending on the formation of the set, has eight dressing rooms or something. Every actor in Oklahoma had to share a dressing room, no matter whether you were Mary Testa and you've been on Broadway for 30 years, or you were Tony Winter, Ali Stroker, everything was a shared dressing room. It was a really wonderful equalizer, I think, for the whole company to feel in it together. When you go to Jagged Little Pill, the principals have their own dressing rooms and the chorus shares a big open room. And it's probably a lot of fun to be in the chorus. I wonder what it actually feels like to walk by a solo dressing room every day.

And that's Broadway. There's principal dressing rooms and chorus dressing rooms. I actually haven't thought about till just now, Mo, that at Oklahoma, everyone was democratized in the fact that everyone had one other person in their wonderfully adorable Circle in the Square dressing room.

[19:52] Mo Brady: Special thanks to Eva Price for sharing her stories with us today. The Ensemblist was produced today by Anna Altide, Jackson Klein, and me, Mo Brady. Please rate and review The Ensemblist wherever you listen to podcasts, on Spotify, Apple Podcasts, or at bpn.fm, the home of Broadway Podcast Network. Our Patreon members have on-demand access to our archive, including full conversations with our guests and early access to episodes. You can join Christopher Gurr, my dad, Patrick Brady, and more by supporting us for between $5 and $20 a month at patreon.com slash The Ensemblist. Thanks for listening. Until next time, I'm Christopher Gurr, and I'll see you next time.