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[0:00] Justin Mach: You're listening to The Ensemblist, the only podcast that shows you Broadway from the inside out. I'm Justin Mach.

[0:14] Justin Mach: Hey, listeners. I'm Justin, and this is Choreographers Making Moves, a new miniseries highlighting female choreographers who are making a difference and making a name for themselves in the business. For our third episode in this miniseries, we are so excited to bring you a true renaissance woman in the industry. She's been an associate to multiple Broadway choreographers, she's been a dance captain, she's starred in shows, and she's also one phenomenal educator, the brilliant Lizz Picini. Currently teaching sold-out classes at Broadway Dance Center, Lizz is in high demand with several other projects in the works. We'll talk about how learning on the job has made her stronger, what insight she's gained from being on all sides of the table, and why being present, whether that be in the audition room or on stage, is your biggest strength. All right, listeners. Here's my conversation with Lizz Picini.

[1:09] Justin Mach: Hi, Lizz.

[1:13] Lizz Picini: Oh my gosh, I'm so happy to be talking with you right now.

[1:16] Lizz Picini: Thank you. Thank you for having me. I'm excited.

[1:18] Justin Mach: Yeah, of course. Me too. You look great. I love the earrings.

[1:20] Lizz Picini: Thank you so much. I, wait, you're going to die because I literally was almost late because I just ordered a few just casual rompers. I was like, springtime, it's easy, and I put one on, and I sit down, and just because I'm a little psycho, I always do a test, so I put on my Zoom, made sure my lighting was okay, and I literally matched the couch. I matched the couch. This isn't much different, but it was just a floating head. I was the couch, and I was like, oh my god, so I ran to change. This isn't terribly different, but just so that I thought you would appreciate that.

[1:54] Justin Mach: Oh, totally. It's great.

[1:58] Lizz Picini: Oh my god, that's amazing. Lizz, where are you right now? Are you in New York?

[2:02] Lizz Picini: Yep, in the city. Been here. Oh my gosh, been here the whole time.

[2:06] Lizz Picini: Been here the whole time. Got out for a little bit, but yeah, been here the whole time.

[2:09] Justin Mach: Cool. Me too, for the most part.

[2:11] Lizz Picini: Amazing. Where are you from?

[2:13] Lizz Picini: From right outside of Washington, D.C., so Northern Virginia, Nova.

[2:16] Justin Mach: Oh my gosh. Are you familiar?

[2:18] Lizz Picini: Well, I talked to Rachel and Carla Garcia for the series, and they're both from not exactly the same area as you, but you all kind of are from outside the D.C. area.

[2:28] Lizz Picini: Exactly, exactly. We're all so close. That's so funny, but yeah, so grew up in Fairfax, Northern Virginia. I always just say D.C. because it's easier, and then you know people that are from that area because they just say that, and then went to school right outside of Baltimore, Maryland, so kind of that whole DMV area the whole time, and then headed here four days after graduating to the Big Apple.

[2:48] Justin Mach: No way.

[2:49] Lizz Picini: Yeah.

[2:49] Justin Mach: Did you skip university?

[2:51] Lizz Picini: No, no, after graduating university, so that's where I went to school. Yeah, went to school right outside of Baltimore, Maryland for four years. Was going to actually do nine semesters with an education component, but joke's on me. I was like, I'm never going to teach. I'm never going to teach. I don't need to do the student teaching. Well, okay, but anyway, so I graduated with my BFA in dance performance. Did all of those academics, because I also just love learning, so I accrued all those credits, but just didn't do that ninth semester of teaching, which was still the best thing for me, especially as a performer, to launch into the city, but so that's when graduated and moved here four days later.

[3:27] Justin Mach: What was that transition like getting into the city?

[3:31] Lizz Picini: I always think back to it because I was going through a personal, just a few things personally that were happening that I was like, I should just stay home. I should just go home for the summer. I should be home and just allow myself to recoup. And I am so thankful for my parents because they're just wise and very supportive. And they were like, look, we think that maybe with this vulnerability, we're here for you, but maybe you should just start, just go to the city. And I had auditioned into the program at Broadway Dance Center, which bridges the gap between what you think is reality in the field and what is. So that was a blessing that I had auditioned and made it into that. But I was like, I was just so low personally that I was like, I don't want to.

And I'm so thankful that they encouraged me to do it because then it was like, I was able to quite literally move to New York at a very vulnerable state and just dive headfirst into this program and the city. And I still, to this day, it's like, I could have hated it. Like I could have hated the city. Like, I'm so thankful that I love it. But yeah, so it was like a little bit hazy, to be honest. Like I kind of thought, I'm just going to recoup and be home, but I don't know where I would be right now, figuratively and literally, if I had gone home to kind of take the summer to do what I need to do mentally, when thankfully I was still able to do that here, take care of myself, but kind of dive in headfirst.

[4:54] Justin Mach: Sure. Oh my gosh, that's so awesome that you were able to push past your fears and whatever you were going through just to move into something new.

[5:00] Lizz Picini: Yeah. Okay. So you wrap up BDC's professional program and then do you have any like specific early audition memories?

[5:05] Lizz Picini: Oh yes. This is a story that lately I've been loving sharing and I can own that it's taken me to this point in my life to be able to confidently share it. But I love to be completely as real as possible. So I mean, I am where I am now in my career and so in love with what I am doing now because I had a door absolutely shut in my face that I thought was my destiny. Like that's what I went to school for. Like I was full out. I like thought in college I was going to be a Rockette hands down. That's what I was going to do. Radio City, full force. I was going to be an integral and like it was going to happen. I had done all of the winter trainings, all of the things, the scholars, all these, you know, wonderful opportunities.

When I moved to New York, I had already auditioned a billion times, like you do for anything that you, you know, like we now understand you audition multiple times. So like, you know, gotten in the hang of that. It was actually the first summer that I was not going to do the Radio City intensive and that I was doing the Broadway Dance Center program, right? So that was, I think, 2011. So graduated moved here was doing the BDC program, but still they knew that my priority was Radio City. So they would even allow me to miss some seminars or certain things so that I could go because Radio City had done this first time ever audition for an assistant position. So they brought in like a hundred girls that they knew that, you know, had been training all that to be one to two assistants for all the programs, all the intensives, all the daily sessions, all of that myself.

And, uh, my friend at the time, uh, uh, uh, yeah, what's going to be my roommate. We both got it. We both got the assistant position. So that was all during the summer, 2011, we were like the assistants, the people, we would work with them all up until the audition that came up. And I want to say it was May, 2012. And so at this point it was like, okay, Liz, like you literally are the assistant to this program that has never, or company that has never had an assistant. You are the face of this training, like precision training isn't offered. And like, you're doing it like this could be the year knew all the women, like, you know, it was kind of like looking that way. There was a group of us that were training privately.

We called ourselves the platinum cast and long story, very short walked into that, that audition in May. And I did a double turn to Vaughn. I was typed out and I thought it was the end of the world. And it was at that point. And I can also own at that point in my life. I think my eyes were open to, I have not really dealt with loss and dealt with. That was one of the first times in my life that I had worked so hard, all of this money, all of this time, all of this approval and opinions. And then, I mean, slam shut, like slam shut. And I was like, if this is what the business and life is like, I can't do it. And I, and I just for the weekend, I left the city. I've got a good amount of family in Jersey and I left the city.

I came back and ironically it is a miracle now looking back, but God was already opening up some doors that I didn't even take a second to appreciate because I was so like, no, but this was, and now of course I look back and I'm like, oh my goodness, had that Radio City door even slightly cracked open in the audition realm. I don't know where I would be today. I have the utmost love and respect. My roommate has been one for six years. She took over my position as the assistant. And that's how we met. Like, it's just like those, I love those women. They take my class. I love the support, but it's just not, it's not for me, but I love sharing that story because all of this, like, and then these doors of musical theater and Broadway and, and being on all sides of the table and all this stuff started to open up, but it literally came from me moving to the city for a very different reason that everyone, I think, sees me now and thinks, oh, full classes.

Oh, she does. And it's like, it literally was from a heartbreaking no, that made me question like, what in the world, like, what am I doing? I love sharing because like, that's kind of how that first chunk of time went.

[9:05] Lizz Picini: And the cool thing is a cool full circle is that a few years later, I happened to go, I was like, I'm just going to go. It was in Mia Michaels was like running everything for at that time. I think it was the summer show. And three of us, I just wanted to walk in, do a turn and leave, like get typed out and get a burrito and take a class and be fine. You know? And instead, ironically, three of us were there the whole day. We made it to the end. It was three of us at the end, 5 p.m. paperwork, photos, everything. They never hired a rookie, which is absolutely fine. But it was the coolest full circle moment of like, still such appreciation for that job and that company. But it was just another audition. It was just another day. It didn't have to be my self-worth was determined in this, you know? So that was like a really cool full circle moment that I was never expecting.

[9:52] Justin Mach: That's amazing. That's so cool. Someone had a plan for you. You just weren't aware what the plan was at the time.

[10:01] Lizz Picini: Amen. Amen.

[10:04] Justin Mach: Oh my gosh. That's so cool. Yes.

[10:10] Lizz Picini: So was assisting for the Rockettes your kind of first taste on being on both sides of the table?

[10:14] Lizz Picini: You know what is so funny? I have literally never thought of that until you just said that.

[10:15] Justin Mach: Oh, wow.

[10:15] Lizz Picini: Because I really, I was never in that position. Like I was never on that side of the table in terms of like headshot or like literally typing people in out running calls like I do now. But that's such a good point. That was the first taste that I ever knew. OK, how do I not step on toes? This is my like director or choreographer. Do they want me to move? Do they want me to physically move? Do they want me to wait? Are we going back? Like just allowing me to be as present and aware as possible. I mean, that's literally so funny, again, how everything truly as difficult as it is to believe happens for a reason. And then I want to say from there, I was nonunion for a chunk. I want to say four years I was nonunion.

And then I had just gotten my card. And the way that that happened was it was a theater that actually gave me my card. And they had reached out and they were like, look, we would love to have you on board. Contract wise, we do not have another slot for a female union member. Their leads were booked. I was like, great, I get it. But they were like, we'd love to have you as an associate. And I was like, what's that? Like, I didn't really quite understand just what all that meant. And I remember that moment being like, I'm not ready. I can't switch. I'm not done.

[11:22] Lizz Picini: I had this pan, like, not that I'm an extreme person, but like, right into that side of the extreme. And I was like, am I retiring? Am I, like, you know, just didn't know what to do. But, and it was so cool, it was so cool to, like, get that taste of running auditions, of being responsible for, which I'm troping into, like, cutting my friends, keeping my students, cutting my students, keeping, I mean, just the amount that goes on when you're making those decisions, but then building enough of a backbone and a good mindset to handle it. And that was the first time, maybe, oh my gosh, I don't even quite know years, I need to figure out, but it was, it was Guys and Dolls. It was with Ricky Hines, who is one of my dearest friends, but it wasn't going to be him.

Something else had happened to the person I was going to work with, who asked me to be the associate. And then something happened, thank God she's okay, but it was like a big crisis last minute. And then they were looking and Ricky, we're able to get him in and Ricky wasn't sure, like, it's just how the business works is so interesting. So to work with him, someone who's a friend and a boss and a mentor, just an incredible learning opportunity. And then from there, it was like, oh, I did this. I, you know, I've been thrown in as dance captain before. Once you have dance captain on your resume, you're going to do that forever. And then people started learning, oh, will she teach it? Where's the hats?

Oh, I can. And now it's like that unicorn mentality of like, I'll be in a show, but I'll be 27 things in a show. And it's amazing. It's exhausting, but it's amazing. Do you feel like that lane of doing everything found you? Do you feel like people saw that in you and encouraged you to do it? Where did being a unicorn lineup with your own creative goals?

[13:02] Lizz Picini: Yeah. You know, another great question. I, I, I think yes and no to all of that. Like in the sense that I'm going to be honest that a lot of people, not a lot, there were a handful of people that did explain their opinion in the sense of just do this. And I don't know if someone else said this to me once they were like, is that the same with men and women? Or do you look at, you know, a gentleman and say, you know, and I don't know, but it kind of was one of the first times that I was like, wait, that's right. Like, I don't have to be just, and I don't mean just as in like, I say that with like being ensemble in a show. I hate when people are like, are you just, and you're like solely ensemble, but like, they're the most talented freaking people.

And so I think that at first it was like, well, I can't because some people that I looked up to at a young age, they knew I want to end this portion of my creative life and begin this portion. And the people that they worked with wanted that clear sign. And that makes sense to me. I get it. Perfect example, Ricky, if I am with him, I'm either in his show or I'm by his side. No in between Dennis. I am in his show by his side, covering his lead dance, captaining, you know, like that, Dennis Jones, Parker, I am in his show covering, but maybe the assistant choreographer, not associate. So it's like learning how to do these different things with these different people and wear different kinds of hats.

So I think all of that at first it was like, oh, I can't. And then it was like, wait, I can. And people started seeing it. And I think believing in me more, just like I started to believe in myself. And now it's like, I can do all these things. And I know how without letting one suffer, which also was a learning curve, obviously. And I say that to people also, where it's like, sometimes it's like, you're just thrown in, like you're thrown in. And like the first time I dance captain, I was like, what am I doing? But I knew enough due to my mentors and bosses in the past, or maybe no, I didn't really have a boss at that time in the creative sense or in the associate, you know, director, choreographer sense.

But I knew enough with just my work ethic and training from college and my parents, just hard mentality on good, hard work that like, okay, let me go take a dance captain that I've worked with to coffee and just pick their brain. Okay. Let me know how to go about this the right way. And then hopefully that was fruitful. And people started seeing the leader that I am and that I do love helping people, which I'm also these past 12 months has like really alerted me to, but so I think like a little bit of everything, a little bit of everything, if that makes sense.

[15:27] Lizz Picini: Yeah, absolutely. A lot of this business is trial by fire. Like you were just saying, you're thrown into something. Sometimes you have the tools. Sometimes you don't know you have the tools and discover that you have them in you on the job for our listeners, any advice or thoughts of people who maybe are listening to what you're talking about and wearing all these hats and wanting to have your hands in several pots in terms of being a part of a show, any things you would have liked to know before you, you started dance captaining, maybe that people told you during these coffee dates, or that you learned from other dance captains or have taken away from some of these choreographers that you've been associate to?

[16:06] Lizz Picini: Yes. I think a big thing, and this totally parallels life, but like to be present, just be present. And that comes from a lot of like, remembering like you have nothing to prove you're there for a reason. Trust the person that put you there, be present, which allows you to really kind of test the waters of like observing moving forward, taking notes, but like just being present and soaking up everything. I remember once there was a moment that I was like, I am literally typing on my note, my iPad, every single thing, no correction, specificity, everything that this person is saying out loud. Am I doing too much? And then sure enough, it was like three days later, a random statement of question about something that I could like scroll and you've got the information.

Like you're able to provide that information because you do, you're doing the work, you're responsible for everything. So I feel like being present, also being gracious with yourself, like, like you don't have all the answers. You're also, especially in that position that I love, you aren't the boss. You're not right. And like, there are certain like levels and hierarchies. I loved a story that I always share. Um, it was, I think I was doing Best Little Whorehouse at the, I think it's out of the Rev Theater and it was myself and I was the dance captain. I was not the associate. And then we had Parker Essie was the director choreographer. There's Parker Essie. There was his associate and I was the dance captain.

He did bring both of us into pre pro. We were there a week early. So now I'm part of the creative process, which the dance captain normally isn't part of the creative process. Right. But great. They wanted me on board. It was a really good learning curve one day when sure enough, Parker stopped and he like had a question about what the choreo was. And he looked at his associate and rather than me letting it go through the correct chain, I wanted to help. So I like did it like I like did it and said it, it was inappropriate because it wasn't my job yet. He didn't look at me yet. He looked at his associate. I'm the dance captain as much as I wanted to help Liz. It's not your job. Wait. And then as I said something, the associate said something else.

Sure enough, if we went back to the video, I'm pretty sure it was what I did. Didn't matter. Parker, like a boss did what the associate said, which I respect so much because that loyalty, he wasn't rude to me, but it was a gentle, like a gentle look. And it was enough for me to be like, Ooh, again, I, I do not have on that hat. I've got a different one, which means I'm next in line. Just wait. A third thing I would say is allowed yourself. When I, the first time I worked with Dennis Jones in a room, I was like, okay, take what I learned with Parker, with Ricky, with Mark Kimmelman, with all Jeffrey, with all these different people. Be aware of those elements, but this is a new human, right? So this is a new person.

So literally be present enough that, okay, is this when he wants me to see, okay, what choreo feels good on my body? Is he about to do it? And I need to soak up those eight counts right away because he's going to say, what should I do? And you're just so aware. It's not about you. It's not about you. And in a great way that like takes the pressure off. You are there to help an incredible production and product, which is why it is such a gift since my heart is still so in performing to be able to do both, you know, but yeah, those are, I guess like three big things that I would say and learning curves.

[19:27] Lizz Picini: Yeah. That's super helpful. That is so, so, so, so helpful. I was reading an interview you did with another organization and you taught a hundred classes with a hundred different combos at BDC during, during like the height of the pandemic. Am I getting all the details right?

[19:39] Lizz Picini: You are. I literally read that in your earlier statement and I started sweating. So I, in pure Liz fashion, I made a promise in my first Broadway Dance Center class during the pandemic was April 4th, 2020. Oh my gosh. So we're very close to a year. Four days away. Wow. I mean, right. Talk about, and I mean, I just, so many emotions. So, and it was just after my boyfriend and I had healed from COVID. I mean, like to the point where like, we didn't think we were going to make it like hospitalization. We couldn't walk. Like it was horrible. So lots of emotions. So April 4th. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. I appreciate that so much. Um, so which was good perspective. So April 4th, first class, I mean, you should have seen I, the amount of tutorials I did, the amount of like test runs with assistants, just because it is a new format.

Like it is a new thing. And my favorite story to share just Robert trailing a bit was I was like feeling great. Like I'd done like 8,000 test runs and then something had happened with the music right before. But naturally since I logged on like 12 hours early, we were able to like fix something. And like BDC sent me my playlist in Spotify form. Well, at the time I hadn't purchased Spotify. I was using iTunes music and I purchased that. So you see where this is going. I do this moment in class where we're sitting, we're silent. We're still, it's wonderful. We're thankful. We're proud. Like we allow this like gentle moment. And like, I mean, belting a deodorant commercial, like, like adult depends and like baby food.

Like, I don't even know where the stuff came from. And I am just standing there at birth. I was like, everything's fine. Like everything. Oh no. Like, and then I was just like, just let it happen. Just let it happen. Like this is 2020. Just let it happen. Yeah. So I said, right. So I said that I would do every single class. It would be a new combo. Like every single class I teach Saturdays and Mondays, very thankful for two slots. And, and that even if it was like a combo I revisited from like four years ago during quarantine time, it would always be a new combo. No one online will be ever taking a combo that they've learned online before. If that makes sense. And yeah, I did the math. Like I did the math a month ago, maybe when I posted and I was like, oh my goodness, we have hit the 100 mark.

So if I'm twitchy a little bit, it is a real, but I've had like great help in the sense of like, I have this one wonderful assistant. That's like my DJ. So she'll like literally give me playlists based on what I want. Like all like it's all just been fun. Like it's sure. Like it's kept me, I mean, it's a gift. It's kept me creative and it's made me breathe. Like every combo or class is just not the end of the world. And you know what, if someone doesn't like it, like there's a new combo on Saturday, there's a new combo on like, exactly. So, but right. It's like a little bit when I even read that, I was like,

[22:44] Lizz Picini: In between new combinations, so for you to just create new material for an entire year is incredible, I have to say. Good for you, good for you. Thank you, thank you, thank you, thank you. I appreciate that so much. And also it must, I mean, generating new material, your brain must be so sharp and the self-talk, you really must have worked through just not judging what you're doing and just creating material and going with it and allowing it to flow, which is a thing a lot of people struggle with when they're creating their own material, so what a good practice to be in. Right, and it's so funny that you say that because I used to be like, I'm so not ready to choreograph. Again, going back to, okay, well, Lizz is just this.

No, in between my shows or if I'm, you know, playing this at this house and then I'm going to set this at this, you better believe I'll be able to choreograph a bunch of production numbers at a regional house, like, you know, like, it's like, that's what I've been doing. And I mean, right, exactly. And then the interesting thing is like, I'll teach it at BDC and then I'll have like, okay, well, what if a client wants to work on it privately? Then I'll have to reverse it on Zoom because BDC has the technology, but it's cool because then it's like swing brain. I was about to leave on tour first, you know, to swing a show and that's not happening. So I'm like, all right, Liz, we'll just use that now and truly like, and just click in, you know, and use every opportunity you can right now without exhausting yourself.

But like, we can always find a negative. It's so easy to do that. And I really think I used to do that with myself a lot, not to others, but with myself, hands down. And no one would have thought that, but oh my goodness. So now how can I do the opposite and be like, well, you may not be in pin curls, but like swing it Liz, swing the show.

[24:35] Lizz Picini: Okay. So I wonder when has your gender like played a role in the room, either as an associate, as a performer, as a choreographer, has it played a role? Has it not played a role? Have you experienced microaggressions as a leader from other members of the ensemble? I'm curious. I'm sure there are a lot of listeners who I would hope are listening to this podcast and wondering like how I can be a better ally to female leaders in the industry and how we can facilitate more opportunities for females in the industry. I know the New York Times put out a big article about how there were, I think, 10 female choreographers on Broadway. And in the article, they were talking about like the glass ceiling being shattered.

And while I think that's amazing and it has never happened before, I personally feel that there's still like a lot of work to be done in the business and in allowing females to be behind the table and making the larger decisions as well as BIPOC people and marginalized individuals. So it's a big can of worms and I would love your thoughts.

[25:37] Lizz Picini: No, it is. It is. And it's something that I am still learning how to navigate. I also have to say that I am so thankful that the people that I have worked with have uplifted me in such a supported way. It is interesting that I remember one of my early years of dance captaining, someone who is now a boss and a mentor, and was still a mentor and a friend at the time, but I worked under him, said something about like, remember, as a dance captain, like, you're so nice, like, you're so loving, like, you like can't be people's friend. And I remember being like, okay, well, easy for you to say, like, you're like a tough guy. And it's so funny how it's like, okay, wait, so that's me assuming that because this is a note coming from a dude rather than me, that the value in this note, the weight is heavier than me.

So it was like a cool realization of like, wait a second. I also can pride myself in being both because I'm so in tune with knowing the line. When I'm your dance captain, I'm giving you a note. We're not joking around. This is work. When we leave the building and we're having a cocktail after it's open, another thing that my mentors and bosses have done so well is draw that line after it's open, after we're moving forward. Amazing, right? But still those lines are never, ever blurred. So I feel like, I don't know if that kind of statement that day kind of made me like, pull up a bit and realize, huh, especially my response. Well, easy for you to say, like, you're good. And it was like, wait, Liz, that can't be accurate. You know, I love that.

[26:56] Lizz Picini: Totally. Right. I love that so many people that I've said are men that I work with, like, and I love that they have literally purposely put me there next to them, not behind them, next to them because they value and want my input because I am different than them. It's just interesting to think about how often I still have felt like, oh, well, like, I don't know if I should say this. And I look at sometimes in other settings or like around the table, if it's like a group of men and I'm like, why do I feel less inclined to speak up? Like literally why? You know? So it's like, just the awareness has already been changing and like, that's when the change is going to happen is when I am ready. And I switched and I'm like, great.

I'm going to choreograph. Like what, like here I am, what am I doing? I'm knocking down those walls. Cause at the end of the day, sure. Maybe the glass ceiling's been shattered, but there's still glass around. We got to pick it up. Like we got to clean it up. You know, it's like, there's still, like you said, there's so much work to be done in all senses, which continues to open my eyes to people that have been much more marginalized than I have, you know, as a privileged white woman, you know, with access and resources to move forward accordingly.

[28:09] Lizz Picini: I do remember Jen Waldman, freaking Jen Waldman, if you know of her and her studio, like she was 2014, maybe, um, that I did Oklahoma with her. And it was amazing because it was so early in my career. And she selected me from the audition as a dance captain. I'm still like, how did you know? How do you know these things? But like I do now that I'm on the side of the table, like I get it a little bit more, but so cool. And, um, and I was Gertie, right? So it's just like, she gets to walk on stage, laugh and then like walk off and chart the show, you know? So it's like a wonderful role to, to dance captain, but you've got to find someone that can act that and is a sharp enough dancer to, you know, to do the show.

Um, so, but it was so cool to see Jen and her assistant Steph and just to see these two women and like not think twice about it. There was no, no one was apologetic ever, ever, ever, ever. And I think that I'm so fortunate to have that image in my mind to start with. I'm so thankful that that was one of the first tastes I got of musical theater and led by women.

[29:18] Lizz Picini: Right. Um, but it is, it is mind blowing. I talk to my boyfriend about this all the time. Why his grad program are the eight of them. It's 80% men. And I literally out loud, I said, I was like, Oh yeah, because like, I'm never going to apply. I'm not going to get in. And I was like, Liz, but I, you know, with, and it's also a fact that there are just like a lot of us and that's fine. You walk into a room and you're like, Oh, here's me and my 800 closest female friends. And then your, you know, male audition, it's, you know, eight of you that decide, you know, and it's like, and not really eight, but like, it really is like, you know, it's, it's so, but great. So of that, why aren't more women continuing to success?

Why isn't that grad program even? Why is it? I mean, it's just, it is so, so interesting, but it is, it's the conversations. It's the, it's the, the tiny steps, but I do have to say, and who knows if I was just too oblivious that I am so thankful that I have never been scarred by a feeling and absorbing a microaggression or, or, or just enough of a jolt in a leadership position as a female.

[30:21] Lizz Picini: Yeah. I even remember there was one time I was very, something happened to the boss in charge. There was a health crisis. He had to leave. Literally. We hadn't opened the show and it was me standing with the God Mike and a group of men on stage. And I literally, I was not the, I should not have been the core. I'm not, I was not ready to be a choreographer or a director. And it suddenly in that position, I was, I was put there and that's, I was not ready. Like I wasn't, I have no shame in that. And the person, and I'll say his name, Robbie Roby was wonderful. He stepped in, he grabbed gently, took the God Mike from me, almost had like his, I mean, hand on my back and, and just took over. And it was the most supportive way of being like, yes, Robbie's on 27 Broadway shows.

Let him take over. Like, and it was a weird thing. Cause like he was, he's good. Right. And it was like, I was associate, but he was dance captain. Cause I wasn't part of the union yet, which shows I was inexperienced. I was a great frigging dance. I'm not in charge. He could have easily dismissed me and he could have got away with it because he saved the show. Right. But just because of a tricky situation, but instead it was like that. And I'm so thankful that the majority of instances in my life have been like that while still, you know, dealing with so many other things, um, or the, you know, average, like, Oh, you're going to like move on and choreograph and direct what you want. Like kids. And I'm like, no, not like, you know, stuff like that. Like, right. You're just like, Oh my gosh, it comes at you from every angle, every angle.

[31:57] Lizz Picini: There's a sense in the business that we still have a long ways to go in terms of the pandemic, but it seems like people are starting to set possible like open dates for shows and, and, and they might be six months out, but it's like, Oh, okay. Like maybe by the fall, maybe by the holidays, we'll be like moving into performing for audiences in a live theater space. I wonder if there are any projects like in your pipeline that you're excited about or any creative endeavors, um, past teaching that, uh, passion projects that you might be working on that you would kind of like to, to share, talk about, um, so that we can make people aware that, uh, it's going on so that they can watch out for it.

[32:26] Lizz Picini: Yeah. Yeah. Well, myself, myself, Liz Puccini, the musical. Um, you know, I actually, I do have something that's, um, uh, it's not my debut, uh, but something exciting that is coming out, but I, it's not quite, um, we're not able to release details yet. Um, so I, so maybe we'll follow up with like a little fun and post it's, it is just to the point where I was like, how are we having this conversation? Like, just because I didn't think that in, you know, the past 12 months, I don't think that I was ever thinking we would never have these conversations again, or talk about casts or production meetings or, you know, set design. But I think that I'd actually finally worked on compartmentalizing enough to keep myself safe and sane that I just was going so day by day, which I still want to implement.

[33:29] Lizz Picini: Um, but yeah, so there are, there are two things that are very exciting that are coming up that, um, one is like a, like a thing that I never thought would happen in my entire life. And it's just really, really cool, which you will definitely know about. Um, and then another is a really cool show opportunity that's, that's coming up, God willing, everything works out, but neither one of those, I can really talk about it.

[33:52] Lizz Picini: It's okay. No, I get it. You don't want to jinx it that all the, all the I's haven't been dotted in the T's cross. I totally understand. I totally get it. Like a week we'll just like meet back or like two weeks or whatever.

[34:26] Justin Mach: As we wrap up the interview, I guess I just have two kind of more questions. You are in your prime. You are in the middle of your career. You are so inspiring to lots of people, including myself and anyone that knows you in the business. I wonder if you have any advice for younger Lizz, like when she moved to New York and was trying to be a Rockette. This is like the RuPaul's Drag Race moment of like, what would you say to a four-year-old Lizz Picini?

[34:54] Lizz Picini: Thank you for everything that you just said. You know, thank you. And I loved when I saw that question on your lead. I love this question. You know, I think that like, I always kind of go with these three things that I really kind of stick by. And lately, a fourth has really kind of plugged in and I love it. But the three that I always say are in no particular order, or maybe, to just like breathe, like be a good human. Like, and hopefully that's who you are, right? Like, because that, like that outlasts anything, right? To the point where there are moments that I was like, I'm so thankful that I work so consistently, but I can't remember the last time I've auditioned for a job. And that immediately was a negative to me because that's where I defaulted.

Oh, well, they just like my personality. Oh, well, maybe I'm not that good. And it's like Lizz, like, like your connection with being a human first, and you're basically in relationship with all these people, like, you know, like just be a good human and let that outlast so much, you know, the second is to allow yours, like be yourself in industry. That's based on comparison. It is the most difficult thing to do. And social media in this day and age has nearly destroyed us. I'm a victim of it myself. I mean, it just, Oh my goodness. And I think if we just say that out loud more and more, it's like, it's, it is a little bit easier, but like, it's a beautiful thing. And it's also a terrifyingly addictive, terrifying thing, you know?

So it's like our business, and this is absolutely no shade to the company I thought I was going to work with. Yeah. But the beauty of musical theater and Broadway is the fact that we are built on individuals. You actually get to be yourself. And like, I, I get it now behind the table. I get it. Like we could, who knows what we could be looking at or talking about or all, but the point is like, there's actually only one of you, again, the pressure's off. You don't have to fricking be like Susie, like just be you, you know? And the third thing that I always say is just keep going. Like you're in New York. And, and, and, and Rick said this to me once, like you can walk dogs, you can babysit, like you're in New York, like just keep going.

That like the tenacity can out again, outlasts anything. And when I look at the people's careers that I want to emulate and the careers that I want to parallel, they are people that are in their upper thirties that are in their forties that are older than I am that are consistent. Longevity is an element of their career. Sustainability like hands down. Right. And then the fourth thing that I'm trying to implement myself now is to remember like, yeah, in the best way, it's just not about you. Like, it's not about you, Liz. When someone else gets a job, it doesn't mean you didn't. It like, it doesn't. And you know, like when someone else's success, it's not your failure, right? Like just learning to eliminate that element of comparison, because in the best, best way, it doesn't have to be about me, you know, like in not a self-deprecating way.

I said this to someone the other day, I was like, what if I have 80 people in my class that brought a dance center? They're sold. It's amazing. Okay. But like Justin, billions of people didn't take my class. So like the billions that didn't, it sounds ridiculous, but it's like, that's literally what I'm doing when I compare myself. That's literally what I am doing, you know? So it's like those four things. But again, that comes with experience, with rehearsing this, you know, with learning to talk about it. But yeah, those are things that I just am so passionate about. And that I wish I could have like syringe infused into myself when I was younger. So I was like, I'm fine.

[38:30] Justin Mach: Oh, yeah, absolutely. Totally. The thing that really resonates, all of them resonate. Number three, you were talking about being yourself. I heard from a mentor just a few weeks ago, don't leave your personality at the door. When you walk into the room, there's such this sense of being right and being correct and wanting to impress that we forget to be ourselves. We just worry about about getting it done and getting it done right, that we leave our personality at the door when we walk in. And I, yeah, it's great to hear that that's something you're working on as well. And I think that we can all like allow ourselves to be ourselves and also like, be good friends to ourselves in the way that we are to our actual friends, you know, so true with the self talk.

[39:17] Lizz Picini: Yeah, so true. And that's what I've been like saying in class. Great. When you do the combo, maybe instead of walking away from the like, you do the combo. I screwed up. Stop. What was one thing you did? Well, even if you just kept your eyes open, but like, when do we ever do that? And then again, practice what you preach, Liz. I mean, it's literally the information that I give to my following and my clients. And then there I am curled up in a ball crying because I'm dealing with it myself. And it's like, that's okay. But like, practice what you are teaching and preaching like you need. And I am not afraid to say that, you know. But right. I mean, right. Everything that you just said, everything.

At the last part of the series, I would love to hear female choreographers that are contemporaries of yours that really inspire you. And also, if there are female choreographers that you have been inspired by your whole life, or mentors that have inspired you, I'd love a shout out.

[40:04] Lizz Picini: Absolutely, absolutely. You know, I mean, you definitely mentioned two of them, like with it being Carla Garcia and Rachel Dolan, who I adore, which is fantastic that you, you know, specified that I said, I know, I said this to you earlier that Aaron Moore, who I know is like gently kind of gone like back and forth on sides of the table. She is just, yeah, I met her doing the Omaha Symphony with Parker Essie. And she is just a hoot and a half and a wonderful human. And someone that I love talking out loud was one of the first people to just patiently talk to me about the need for racial reform, about not looking someone that doesn't look like me. I mean, just like someone all senses as an activist, as a, I mean, just have the conversation with me now where it's like, it helps me out with something that's like, doesn't call me out doesn't like scold me, but like makes me a better inclusive human, you know, like just a wonderful person.

I mean, I know that this is she would not be at all a colleague of mine, but Sheila Barker is just what a cool and someone that I mean, I love that she one day said to me at BDC, Oh, like, are you feeling like, you're nervous, like you don't know who's going to be in your class if they're going to like you or and she was like, Welcome to every day of the rest of your life, like every day teaching at a drop in studio, New York city is your first day of work. Every day you are standing in front of 80 people saying, are you going to like me? Are you funny? Do you like my jokes? Did I pull up? Did I fall? Like, I mean, every day you are performing and you could have just gotten cut beside your effing students.

And then you've got to show up and inspire them while you're drowning, you know, it's like, and when she said that, it was like, Oh my gosh, I also have loved getting to know just slightly in the faculty lounge and seeing her work. And she's wonderful. Micaela McGowan. She's been teaching at BDC. Yeah. She has been wonderful. Also just like another, like really just like fierce human, you know, just like a really, really great human being, which is wonderful. But that is also the beauty of being in the faculty lounge at Broadway Dance Center is looking at these women that I'm just like, it's just, I mean, fantastic. And who I've started to love to get to know and take her class. And she's just a wonderful person as Shannon Lewis.

Also, I've really enjoyed her wisdom, her relaxation while still obviously so professional. And Christine, Christine Cornish Smith. She just started teaching for both BDC and steps. And again, talk about someone that reminds you like at the end of the day, we're dancing, like we're literally doing ball changes and pas de bourree. And yes, it's incredible. And it makes people excited and it allows an escape. And it's what we're passionate about. But like, I do love one of my dearest. Ricky always says, at the end of the day, we're doing musicals. You know, like when I'd sit there and I'd be like, we don't have time to 10 out of 12. We're almost done. What do you want? And he'd be like, at the end of the day, we're doing a musical, like in the best still protected, but the best way.

And I feel like she's also someone just a little bit that I'm getting to know her. And we teach at an institute together. And like, it's just been really, really kind of cool to see just like it doesn't not nothing casual or mocking what we do, but just a nice balanced perspective and lens, especially after the past 12 months. And Kristen Pope, Kristen Pope, Kristen Pope, who is yes. And she is like, I feel like she's been on for a while now kind of straddling both sides of the table and teaching a ton. Oh, yes. Oh, she is just a rock star. She's a rock star. Yeah. Yeah. Amazing. So many. I mean, literally, it's amazing that they're like, right, there's so many freaking people and I could send you a PDF later. Like there is just awesome. It really is. So cool.

[44:01] Justin Mach: Oh my gosh, Liz, thank you so, so, so, so much for the last hour of your time. You're so just inspiring and wonderful and vivacious and exciting to talk to. What is your Instagram handle? What is your website? When are your BDC classes? How can people find you?

[44:11] Lizz Picini: Yes. Yes. Thank you. It's very boring. It's just my name. Liz Picini, L-I-Z-Z-P-I-C-I-N-I and I every other letter for Tuesdays to Liz for Instagram website, the exact same Liz Picini dot com. And then at BDC, I teach Saturdays at one forty five and Mondays at one p.m. Yes, we are gently bringing bodies into the space, but so slow on Zoom still like and I totally encourage in this day and age, there's going to be a lot of Zoom auditions and and this interaction. So stay in that virtual world like everyone's still safe to take. So, yeah, Saturdays, one forty five and Mondays at one.

[44:54] Justin Mach: Special thanks to Liz Picini for sharing her stories with us today. The Ensemblist was produced by Mo Brady, Jackson Klein and me, Justin Mach. Please rate and review the Ensemblist wherever you listen to your podcasts on Spotify, Apple Podcasts or BPN.FM, the home of Broadway Podcast Network. Our Patreon members have on demand access to our archive, including full conversations with our guests and early access to episodes. You can support us for between five to twenty dollars a month at Patreon dot com slash the Ensemblist. Thanks for listening. Until next time.