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[0:10] Rob Russo: Welcome to DANCIN’ Man, a Fabulous Invalid podcast featuring exclusive behind-the-scenes interviews with the cast and creative team of Bob Fosse's DANCIN’ on Broadway.

[0:18] Jamie DuMont: I'm Jamie DuMont.

[0:20] Rob Russo: I'm Rob Russo.

[0:21] Jamie DuMont: And we're your hosts.

[0:22] Rob Russo: We're also excited to be co-producers of DANCIN’ on Broadway and thrilled to be back in the Rosebell Cocktail Room at Civilian for another conversation.

[0:30] Jamie DuMont: Yes, and this week is a very special week.

[0:32] Rob Russo: This is a conversation. I mean, this is the one we've been waiting for.

[0:35] Jamie DuMont: Well, you actually said yesterday we've been prepping our whole lives for this interview.

[0:39] Rob Russo: I mean, truly.

[0:40] Jamie DuMont: So, as you know, if you've clicked onto this episode, we are speaking with director and musical stager Wayne Cilento.

[0:47] Rob Russo: A legend in this industry, Wayne made his Broadway debut in 1973 in Irene. He was a member of the original company of Seesaw before creating the iconic role of Mike in A Chorus Line.

[0:56] Jamie DuMont: He left that show to join Liza Minnelli in The Act before Bob Fosse cast him in the original production of DANCIN’ in 1978, for which he received his first of seven Tony Award nominations.

[1:07] Rob Russo: He could have just retired right then.

[1:09] Jamie DuMont: I mean that's a career.

[1:10] Rob Russo: That is a career.

[1:11] Jamie DuMont: Right.

[1:11] Rob Russo: Well, he didn't. In the 1980s, Wayne pivoted to choreography, but he performed one last time on Broadway in Bob Fosse's Big Deal in 1986. He won a Tony Award for his choreography of The Who's Tommy in 1993, and he provided choreography for such shows as the landmark 1995 Broadway revival of How to Succeed in Business Without Really Trying, Aida, Wicked, and the 2005 revival of Sweet Charity, among many others.

[1:33] Jamie DuMont: As a member of the original cast of DANCIN’ and a celebrated choreographer and director in his own right, when it came time to bring DANCIN’ back to Broadway, Wayne was perhaps the only person who could do it.

[1:42] Rob Russo: Absolutely. Boy, when you read those credits, that's an astounding career.

[1:47] Jamie DuMont: And I left some stuff out. I mean, we could go on and on about Wayne's remarkable career.

[1:51] Rob Russo: Well, why don't we go on and on about Wayne Cilento with Wayne Cilento?

[1:54] Jamie DuMont: Let's do it.

[1:55] Rob Russo: Here's our conversation.

[2:07] Jamie DuMont: Wayne, hello. Thank you so much for joining us today.

[2:10] Wayne Cilento: Thank you.

[2:11] Jamie DuMont: I know it's a little early to be so energetic.

[2:15] Wayne Cilento: Speaking of early mornings, you've just come from Good Morning America.

[2:19] Jamie DuMont: The cast performed this morning.

[2:20] Wayne Cilento: Good Morning America today.

[2:22] Jamie DuMont: The show opened a week ago. How are you feeling this morning?

[2:25] Wayne Cilento: I can't believe you just said that. A week ago?

[2:28] Wayne Cilento: Yeah. I feel like it's been a month.

[2:30] Wayne Cilento: But yeah, it's like a whirlwind. I mean, it's been so exciting.

[2:34] Jamie DuMont: Yeah.

[2:35] Wayne Cilento: And then, you know, this morning was a challenge to try to get that number out on a little stage, but we managed to pull it together, and I was really pleased.

[2:45] Rob Russo: Did you have to rehearse everyone in a smaller space?

[2:50] Wayne Cilento: Yeah, we mocked it out. We blocked it out on our stage in the theater, and we put the columns at where they were, and we kind of mirrored where the tables would be, and we did all of the transitions and tried to work it out. So all we really needed to do was just get on the stage this morning and just kind of remind us of what we did. So it was definitely a shorthand and perfect.

[3:11] Rob Russo: That's ironic because "Sing Sing Sing" is like the most expansive, explosive number of the whole show.

[3:15] Wayne Cilento: I know, and so they're doing it on a table that's, you know, on a stage this big, so they can't like fly, but it came off really well. I mean, I'm really pleased.

[3:24] Jamie DuMont: You did a like a two-minute excerpt from it.

[3:27] Wayne Cilento: Uh-huh.

[3:28] Jamie DuMont: How did you pick that specific? Is what, 12, 13 minutes long?

[3:32] Wayne Cilento: Well, there's a lot of different sections in it. So we figured we'd do the first section, but then we did, I don't know if anyone knows, we incorporated the last section within the first section. It's very complicated. But that big crossover thing that they did at the end of the number was not in the original, well, what we do at night. It's in the second part. So we just thought it gets very repetitious because it just rolls and rolls and rolls. And I think Bob Fosse's interpretation or the way he puts numbers together is the repetitive theme that just keeps pushing you forward and just keeps going and going and going until you finally go, okay, I give up and start clapping. You know, so he has definitely a technique in how he did that.

I've seen numbers develop like using that kind of mechanism to make a number work. So we did that, and I just thought for the camera and with the small stage, I think we need to do something that's unusual. So we sh put that in there. It popped. And it actually sort of fortunate that it's overcast today because it was gorgeous. Just popped on the television because of the darkness, I guess.

[4:44] Jamie DuMont: You know what else I thought was really interesting? Looking at the environment around the frame, it kind of is like big city mime. It's like we're doing "Sing Sing" in the middle of big city mime with the colors and the neons and stuff, it just turned out really gorgeous. I was really happy with the whole artistic point of view of it.

[5:03] Wayne Cilento: Fabulous. Would you say that "Sing Sing" is Bob Fosse's most sort of recognizable piece of choreography?

[5:10] Wayne Cilento: I think it's recognizable because of the music, and it's definitely been done a lot. You know, with Fosse and with the original and now this interpretation. So it's something that's been done a lot. I mean, I think it's very constructed really well, and the way it breaks down into like individuals and then the duet, the tap dance, and all of that, and Colton doing or the trumpet solo. It's just a beautifully done number.

[5:37] Rob Russo: So one of the things I noticed, and then we'll move away from "Sing Sing Sing" for a second. One of the things I love about watching it in the theater is when, and I'm gonna probably get it wrong, so I apologize. But when Corey gets up absolutely on the two boys' shoulders, yeah, and they move forward, and then what I love is when they go off stage, right? Her dismount, for lack of a better way to put it, is choreographed. It's beautiful to watch.

[6:01] Wayne Cilento: Very few people see it because you have to be on that side.

[6:08] Rob Russo: Yes, I've seen it three or four times from a perfect vantage point. And we spoke to her about this, and she was grateful that somebody noticed exactly.

[6:18] Wayne Cilento: But it also just I think it speaks to every moment in the show is there's an intention and a purpose.

[6:26] Wayne Cilento: Yeah, well, it's kind of interesting, and even the way the set design and the exposure of the wings. I mean, you really—and that was an accident because we were just rehearsing it with these scaffolding in the rehearsal hall, and I love the energy of the fact that you see them leave, but they don't really leave the stage, they just unfold around the scaffolding and come back in. And I thought conceptually, that's really satisfying. It's like they're not leaving, and it's like a black wall. And actually, they try to do that, they try to put like a black felt curtain. I said, No, I want it open, but you know, you're gonna. I said, I know I want the energy of what that is, and it worked out really perfect, and it's very unique, pretty much an accident.

[7:11] Rob Russo: Yeah, yeah. I've never seen anything like that before.

[7:14] Wayne Cilento: And then I think even Robert Brill was like excited about the fact that the scaffolding was choreographed. So it's the movement with the dancers and them moving in and them moving out and whatever, it was just like a continuation of that movement. So everything is pretty much dance in a show called dance.

[7:34] Jamie DuMont: Well turning the clock back about 45 years, you or actually a little bit more than that, you famously started your career with iconic shows like Irene and Seesaw and A Chorus Line. Of course, we could do a whole podcast about A Chorus Line.

[7:48] Rob Russo: Right.

[7:50] Jamie DuMont: And it's gonna be very hard for us not to sit with you and talk about it. We're being restrained. But yeah, we're here for a very specific reason. I'm curious if you could share with us when was the first time that you auditioned for Bob Fosse?

[8:03] Wayne Cilento: For Chicago, when I was doing the first workshop of A Chorus Line. I didn't even get to a second stage. I was cut right from the beginning.

[8:10] Rob Russo: Did he get to see you dance though?

[8:12] Wayne Cilento: Uh, excuse me. Did he get to see you dance or someone else was supervising the first stage?

[8:15] Wayne Cilento: No, he was there. I just don't think I caught his eye or he wasn't—I wasn't what he was looking for, or maybe just missed me.

[8:22] Wayne Cilento: Yeah. I mean, it gets like that when you see lots of people. So, you know, it worked out to my benefit.

[8:28] Rob Russo: Yeah, I would say so.

[8:29] Wayne Cilento: Yeah. I mean, and you know, and then I did DANCIN’, so I'm just happy it all kind of like turned around.

[8:36] Rob Russo: So there's a really terrific story about how you got cast in DANCIN’. I'm wondering if you could share it with our listeners.

[8:40] Wayne Cilento: Um, well, because I was out of town, I did A Chorus Line for I think two and a half years, and I was having a nervous breakdown, so I had to leave. Um, it was like, okay, I don't know what I'm doing anymore. So I left and I put myself back out there and I went into an ensemble, which is unusual to dance with Liza. And I thought, okay, I'll go back and I'll dance with Liza. I just want to dance and have fun. So I did. And Ron Lewis was the choreographer, and I wanted to dance for him. So it all kind of worked out. I got incredible reviews doing The Act with Liza. Just like standout stuff. And it was like, wow, this is so weird. I know I had a connection with her. And, you know, and I just thought all of the stuff was great.

But um, so I was out of town. We came back in town. We were going to open, and I used to assist Graziella Danielle through Alan Johnson. So I danced with Alan. Graziella assisted Alan. I started assisting Graziella. Long story short, she said to Bob, you have to see Wayne. And he said, Okay, but I'm cast. And so it was the Minskov rehearsal studios, and I was on one end doing rehearsal with The Act, and Bob was on the other end doing pre-production. And one lunch I just ran over. And Annie was there, Bob was there, Gordon Harrow was there. There was a drummer. Bob taught me a couple combinations. I danced with Annie, he danced with the both of us. He watched, I sang. He said, Thank you. I said thank you.

I ran out of that room and I was like, okay, I don't care what happens. It's great, no problem. I saw Bob Fosse. Opening night, Bob's in the middle of the orchestra. I'm in the middle of the stage. I'm doing some step, and I go, we go eye to eye. I'm like, holy shit. We're looking at each other right now. And I was like, okay, get yourself together. Kept going. Opening night party. I run into Bob and he goes, I want you. And I said, What? He said, Yeah, I want you to do the show. I said, But you said it was cast. He said, Yeah, don't worry about it. I'll figure it out. I want you. I said, Okay, I'm in. Don't tell Liza because I was the dance captain for The Act. And so I doubled. I did it. I did the show at night and I rehearsed DANCIN’ in the day.

And then when I couldn't do it anymore, I left the show. But that was the beginning of me and Bob, I guess. So it was amazing. Everyone says, How is Bob? And I say, Quiet, just quiet. The room is quiet. He's focused and he's intense and he's internal and his head's down and he's stylized and he's coming up with his stuff. And then he gets us up and teaches it, and then his assistants come in and they try to fix it and or do whatever. And then we moved on from there. And I just, you know, it was like a great experience. He gave me everything.

[11:30] Wayne Cilento: Yeah, and I never heard from him. So I figured I was doing things right. I was just there, tell me what you want me to do, which was pretty much everything. And I just was focused and I was tired, and I just needed to do a hundred and fifty percent for him every time I got on that floor, and I did, and that was that.

[11:52] Wayne Cilento: I really have to say, and someone said that to me today about the company years ago, 45 years ago, the dancers 45 years ago, they don't take care of them. Well, I shouldn't say this because I don't know, but it didn't seem like they were doing the physical warm-up technique, training, support with trainers and stuff to keep their bodies intact. They were pretty much young and just threw themselves out there. I know I took classes and I warmed up every show before every show, matinee day. I just always took care of my body because I was doing so much. But a lot of people, their mentality was different. It was like, okay, I don't feel so well, but I'll come in and I'll do my feature. But I can't do this, this, and that.

[12:46] Wayne Cilento: And at that point, because it's impossible to keep the show running with people out and falling apart. You go, yes, the management said, okay, fine, just come in, do your part. And don't worry about the other stuff. We'll fill it in with all the, you know, the covers. Um, that was not me. I was like, okay, I'm in this, and I'm just going straight forward. I was just driven to never miss. And I think I missed maybe two shows, and I was mortified that I was sick and I couldn't keep my head up. But it's different. And I feel like this company is driven. They're so excited about this opportunity.

[13:26] Jamie DuMont: You were ahead of the curve in the idea of self-care, right? And like taking care of yourself.

[13:30] Wayne Cilento: I think so. I just I knew I would the responsibility that he laid on me. I just felt like I needed to, and I think he trusted me, so I just had to honor that.

[13:40] Jamie DuMont: So you had the very unique experience of working, well, yes, across the board, right? Your whole career. I mean, you know, this is my story. This is my story about Bob and how I feel about him. And you know, it's emotional and uh it's so much gratitude. I don't know what other people's story are. I don't really care.

[13:58] Wayne Cilento: But you did, you know, before doing DANCIN’, you created a whole new musical with Michael Bennett, right? In A Chorus Line.

[14:04] Jamie DuMont: Absolutely. What was it like working in the room?

[14:05] Wayne Cilento: And I made CISO with the channel. And Seesaw, exactly. Right. What was it like working with Michael Bennett in the room versus Bob Fosse in the room?

[14:12] Wayne Cilento: You know, I feel like the both of them really like molded my career. And just watching Michael come into Seesaw out of town and just firing 15 people at one shot and bringing in new people and changing a show in Detroit in two weeks. And just a man that like was obsessed with kind of like what I was talking about the scaffolding dancing, the sets moving and changing and drapes and transitions. And he was like driven, brilliant. Not necessarily with choreography, because he used us. There was a core of dancers that he used. It was me, Bayork, Dunner, uh, McKechney, Tommy Walsh, and um, I think Bob Avian was in the room. There was like five of us, and we would come up with stuff, and he would come in and he would say no, yes, no, yes, put it back together, come back.

Well, that looks great. No, it's still not right yet. Come back, and then go, okay, great, teach it to the company. Not us, but someone would teach it to the company. So he was that, but then he would do the tap combination in A Chorus Line in two seconds and go, okay, I want to do this, and we would learn it, and then that was it. But so when he wanted to, he would pull it out. And but he was more concerned with the world, and I loved that about him. Bob is concerned about the world, but he's also really specific about his choreography. No one does his choreography. He doesn't, so he's meticulous about that. And I don't know what his process was because I wasn't inside it, but I was outside watching, and the two of them had two different qualities, but they were both so unique, and they were geniuses, the both of them.

[15:57] Wayne Cilento: We spoke to Candy Brown once, and Candy said that I think it was in Pippin, they spent an entire day, and I'm just moving my finger back and forth. She said that's all they did was just work on the placement of the finger and the tension in the finger. And I thought that's so fascinating, and it doesn't surprise me at all. And it's interesting because that's a part of Bob, the specific part that can't stop with the finger until it's like perfect. And then there's the explosive Bob who flies across the floor, like in two seconds. And I did that. I did dance in, but it was a combination of that. It wasn't really the finger thing and dancing, it was different styles, whatever he wanted to do. But then eight years later, when I did Big Deal, he was into a whole nother path.

And it was like the directorial Bob came in with the fluidity and the crossfading and the sets moving and the music and the underscoring going in and weaving through the choreography. It was all like seamless, but it was like a film. He was shooting a film. And then I did Beat Me Daddy, and I flew from one side of the stage to the other side of the stage within seconds. But so I thought, okay, this is that part. This is the explosive part. And I wanted to show that in this DANCIN’. How he was so unique in yes, he's specific and finger, shoulder, eye focus, the whole bit. And then he could explode. And so it was both elements. And I wanted to show that in the show.

[17:27] Wayne Cilento: And it was important to you to have Big Deal in this production of DANCIN’.

[17:31] Wayne Cilento: Yeah, it was because I just felt like I want to honor him for his last musical that he did before he died. It's a great piece of choreography. And I just wanted to tip my hat to him. I mean, it's hard because it's outside of DANCIN’, and then all of a sudden I'm doing like a so-called book musical with dialogue and musical staging and you know, scene work within the choreography, and then a number that came out of nowhere, but in the show, it kind of like worked itself into the club and Beat Me Daddy. Um, so I try to do this little capsule of it. And I'm glad I did it. I really did. But I had to go back and edit the book because there was too much information. And the audience at that point, they don't want to hear it because you know they're into okay, number after number, let's do it.

Like, you know, it's fun and it's great. And then all of a sudden I'm talking at them, and it's like, uh so I edited it down to like, and it was funny because Nicole said to me, What's the point? Just let's just get to the point. What do you want to say here? And I was like, okay, okay, I get it. And she was right. Let's get to the dance. Let's keep moving it. But to your point, Beat Me Daddy isn't as effective if you don't know some of the backstory. If you don't know the motivation of the dance that you were doing with Bruce, Bruce Anthony Davis, or now Nando Moreland and um Tony Delaleo. Right. Um, if you don't know that, then it doesn't make sense. Again, it isn't as impactful. It's a good number, but they don't know.

I mean, it's really funny because I've seen people do the number, and I'll go, and do you know why you're looking over there in that corner? And they go, no, why? I said, because Lily was there, and we were doing that number for Lily. We were showing off, and we were trying to get her attention. Oh, really? Everything is focused on an angle. Right. We never looked front. So it's kind of interesting. But you also get the idea of what that little story is. I mean, the fact that she's trying to make Charlie jealous. Uh, Freddie and Moses is coming along to dance with her. So there's a number.

[19:36] Wayne Cilento: Well, you mentioned a second ago, Nicole's advice when working on that number.

[19:39] Jamie DuMont: Yeah. What was it like working with her on this whole project and you know, putting it all together?

[19:45] Wayne Cilento: We started like four years ago when um it first came the question came to me if I was interested in doing it, and I I said yes. And then I thought, oh wow, yes, 41 years ago. How am I gonna do this? What would he do? What's gonna work for this generation? Some of the stuff that he did wouldn't be acceptable for now. So remove that, you know, do something different. But we just started creatively talking, and she was so supportive about well, change it. Uh, do this, do that. I mean, not change the numbers, um, but change the conceptual idea, bring in new stuff. She was very supportive. Here, Wayne, look at this. She's she actually gave me that clown thing that was done in I think Ed Sullivan, and it was the cast of Redhead.

And Bob did something for TV with the company, and it was that crazy little thing, and there was a whole bunch more people in it. Really complicated and very interesting. But I thought, wow, that would be great to introduce the whole SM section in uh Big City Mind. So, anyway, she was great. We talked a lot, and she really trusted me. And she gave me the space. She wasn't like sitting there, like me judging myself, worrying about what am I doing with her father, work the work. She didn't even come to San Diego, which I actually think she was really upset about it, but I actually think she gave me even the space to feel out what the show was, and I found out a lot of things in San Diego that I corrected. So I just respect that.

[21:17] Jamie DuMont: Well, it's fascinating because you're you're both encyclopedias, but like in different ways, right? Because you were doing it with her father.

[21:24] Wayne Cilento: Absolutely.

[21:24] Jamie DuMont: And she was watching it as a child.

[21:27] Wayne Cilento: As a child, right. And so, you know, but then she has all this knowledge of the body of work, the breadth of it. You just referenced a TV thing from you know Ed Sullivan, right? That like you might not have known about it.

[21:35] Wayne Cilento: No, not at all.

[21:37] Jamie DuMont: But she has it, but she has the history with when her mom and Bob and living in that world, which I'm sure it's was very complicated for a young kid that wanted to be in the business. Anytime you're in the position of carrying forth iconic work, whether it's you know Jerome Robbins or Michael Bennett, you want it to live on, absolutely, right? You don't want it to be corrupted, but also you need it to feel vital.

[22:00] Wayne Cilento: Right. And so with Fosse's work, yeah, there's that fine balance, right? Of how do we honor it, how do we do what it was, but also make sure it feels relevant.

[22:09] Wayne Cilento: And that's an interesting point that you brought up because you know, I feel like Bob is thought of in a certain little box, and that box is the little finger thing or whatever. But like I was saying, that's one part of Bob. And yes, that is a very specific sensual, on purpose, sexual kind of flirtation when he gets into that place. And it gets, it's not about the finger, it's just what the finger means, and the eye focus and this the turned in kind of strutting and just coming at you. It's like it's all a monologue. Um, so if you get into that place, you can understand what all of that stuff means. And it's very subtle, and you would think, as a dancer, it's not enough. I'm not dancing, blah, blah, blah.

But you gotta get your head into something else. But um, see, this is me. And then it was kind of interesting because I could have gone on the gotten on the floor a lot and danced. I didn't want them to think uh I wanted them to do Bob Fosse like me. And I don't feel like Bob ever said anything about that. He actually presented the steps, taught the steps, and we were all 16 individual people, all coming from all frames of dance world or life. We instilled how we danced in his choreography. I'm sure there are places where he didn't like how far that person went, and I'm sure he told them. He never told me that I was doing anything wrong, so I thought I was doing it right. I wanted to teach the choreography the way I think he intended it, because we were really specific about that.

But I also wanted to give them the freedom and the flexibility to instill themselves into it. And the only way Bob Fosse could come back alive would be if a new generation of dancers did his work and made it come alive again. And I was really adamant about that.

[24:25] Jamie DuMont: Did you have a moment where you were watching a dancer or dancers or a section and think, well, this is getting a little further afield from what I want it to be, but I'm gonna let it live here for a while and see if it comes to where I need it to be. Did you have that experience?

[24:39] Wayne Cilento: Yes. Yeah, I mean, I think DANCIN’ Man is one of those numbers where you almost have to be in line with each other. Right. You know, if you're in a position and one arm's up like that and one arm's down like that, you have to go, raise your arm. You know, so we did have a moment, and I was like adamant, don't don't clean them yet. Don't clean them yet. And so we got to that point, and then I looked at it, I was like, oh man, we really need to do a cleanup session. Yeah. And so the reality came into place. But I actually think because that number is so specific and it's a beautiful look. I think they appreciated that they didn't have to think they needed to come up with stuff. And that's the other thing. I keep saying it to them, you're enough. Just you being on the stage, the 16 of you being so unique and different, you're enough.

[25:31] Wayne Cilento: You don't have to reinvent yourself and come up with something to make it interesting. You are interesting. So when you do think you have to do something, that's when you get into trouble. And that's when I'm gonna be on your back because I'm gonna go come back because now you went beyond. It's a fine line. And it's, you know, I'm I set it up that way, but now I have to stay on top of it. It's one of the great things of Rob and I have been able to be a part of in interviewing all the dancers is seeing them on the stage and then having them sit and talk to us and realize what we see on the stage is exactly what is coming into this room. Yeah, they are just who they are, and then obviously incredible dancers and talent and all that other stuff, but it's really the it i I I imagine it's it's much like you felt as a company member of the original.

Right. Now you found this this same, the same energy. Right. And I feel like they're pure and they're they're so clean about who they are. They don't have to like fantasize about being something more. And so that's what you're that's what you're sensing, just sitting with them. It's just their energy there. They love each other, and it's like really an incredible dance company. They're killing themselves. But you know, but I think they all support each other and they they're finding their way. And uh I just really respect that. And it speaks to why you were, in my opinion, the perfect person to put the show together because you lived it. Yeah. Right. You've been inside this experience, not just understanding the choreography, but actually doing it eight times a week for right, you know, years on end, right?

Right. But I also didn't get a head trip on myself thinking uh, you know, I was the perfect person to do it, because I didn't want that energy passed on to them. And I that's why I backed off. And every once in a while I get up and I'll do something and they go, Oh, oh, that's what you meant. So it's it's better to see someone, uh, you know, it's hard to explain what I'm talking about. Um, so I did a couple of times, but I didn't, you know, I didn't want to feel like I was the whole do it this way or don't do it at all. This is the way it's supposed to be. I mean, I don't feel that way. Right. Because you understood how Bob Fosse let you all experience the choreography in your own way. Exactly.

So you wanted to recreate that same experience. I felt. Yes. I mean, I don't know, you you can talk to other people, but how I felt when working with him. Yeah, it was just total freedom, total trust, and I just felt I needed to step up and do what he wanted, what I thought he wanted me to do, and that was just watch him dance and try to execute that. Well, he clearly took a shine to you, and you clearly were connecting on a level that you know might not have been true for everyone else who worked with him. Why do you think that is? I don't know. Yeah. You know, I I don't know. Because it wasn't on a social level. It was always professional. And he was always charming and quiet, like I said.

But every once in a while he would come up with a zinger with me. Like he said to me, this is a funny story. I'm in the wings. Charles is doing his percussion four section. Don't know why he was in the wings. And he says to me, When I do this film, I'm gonna shoot Charles doing his number and you in the bathroom taking a leak. And I would left. And I was like, and I think what he was saying was, I was so satisfied and so secure in what I was doing. I really wasn't looking at Charles and saying, Why didn't I get that song? And he knew that. He knew that I was completely fine and so thankful. Because that was one of the only moments in the whole show that you would run about. I know, and the and the girls, here you come again.

I mean, everything else I was in. Yeah. So it was kind of interesting. It kind of like set up our relationship, and he knew where I was coming from. Um, and I was just happy that I was there and doing what I was doing. Well, by 78, by the time you're working together so closely, I imagine for him it might have gotten a little hard to trust people because at that point he was he was Bob Fosse, capital letters, big on the marquee, right? So he might have seen and you someone who was so confident and wasn't trying to like get something from him. Right. Exactly. Yeah. It's hard being a quote unquote. I was like so grateful that he actually came through and hired me, even when he had the company.

Right. Um, and then he was putting me in everything. So it was like, I'm I'm not gonna say a word. This is like heaven. So um, yeah, it was definitely uh where I should have been. So when you left dancing originally in 1980, yeah, you pivoted to doing choreography and then later directing. Right. What prompted that change in your career trajectory within the industry? The Tony nomination kind of like um put me on another level. Like I went to Dance with Liza after Tony nomination and being in dancing, was I really gonna go back into an ensemble? And there were in many shows. I did Perfectly Frank after that. So it was just a small ensemble of actors, singer dancers. So that that worked out great.

And then it was just out of necessity, I started doing choreography. Not that I wanted to, but it just kind of like fell in my lap and I was able to do it. I started as a uh a commercial choreographer, and it was just fun. And I, you know, it's interesting for me because I think back about being a director now, and when I started doing that choreography, it was really like directing like normal people and making them move about a product and then making dancers look like they're normal and making normal people look like they'd moved. So it was a directorial kind of a point of view, and I was doing it through the lens. So I figured out what that was also. Um and then I started doing like industrials and I did a off-Broadway show, and then I did Baby.

That was my first Broadway show, and I got a Tony nomination. So it was like, oh my god, okay. So I better keep going with all this. Did you find that having worked with Bob Fosse and Michael Bennett and Gower Champion and all these, you know, greats had set you up unwittingly to take on this? I think so. I think I had a broad vocabulary of I never was a dancer that, well, I started when I was 18. It's very late. Very late. So I never was a dancer that stuck with one dance teacher in a hometown and like learned that technique. I just studied from every person I can study from in the city. And then Lee Theodore, anybody's from West Side Story, she um was doing that American Dance Machine thing.

She grabbed me. She was a big influence in my life also. Um, and then I kind of did reconstruction work for the show called Jack, and it was Jack Cole. And I spent like a year reconstructing all of Jack Cole's material, which is another kind of tie into Gwen, Jack Cole, me, Bob, all these other people that I've studied with. So I had this abundance of information that just kind of came out of my body. I wonder if Bob recognized in you that Jack Cole background. Because that's what he saw in Gwen, obviously, right? And they, you know, yeah, no, possibly a huge part of their bond as artists. And it's interesting because even Michael kind of like picked me out and like made people sit down and said, okay, dance with me.

Let out dance me. And we would have competitions and like the company's going, what the hell is going on? So it was interesting because I think being little, I think I reminded me of him kind of like there was something going on, but it was like, okay, I'll try to out dance you. Um, but it was kind of fun and uncomfortable, and I said for the company, not for me. I was fine. I mean, Michael and I had that Mike kind of relationship. No, start at the end. Uh, you know, I'd be much better if you started at the end, you know, that kind of relationship. So I I love that it what I the sense I'm getting from you throughout your entire career as a dancer, as a director, as a choreographer, is that you never sit too long in the worrying about any of it.

You just kind of do it and keep moving forward. Absolutely. Which must be freeing. It whether you whether whether you would know it or not, it it it's interesting to hear you continually say that that's just been your attitude. Yeah, and I just kind of get I had opportunities and I just jumped at them. I mean, I I remember the first big musical that I directed was Dream. I don't know. Oh sure, yeah, of course. And it's so unfortunate. I mean, I had a great time. I don't know where that shit came out of me. I mean, I did watch MGM movies. I did I was even when I wasn't dancing, I so all that flooded back. But it was like they hired me after they fired like 10 people, and I got like blessed with this show in my in my lap, going, okay, fix it.

First time out. It was like, okay, fine. And like like you said, just jump. And I did, and I loved what I did, but it was like now I think about it, it was like Johnny Mercer, I had John Pizzarelli. I could have used John Pizzarelli as the Johnny Mercer figure. Now my brain is working directorially. Before I was just going in there as choreographically, I was doing brilliant work, but I wasn't like telling the story of what the hell this was. So something I want to hone in on because I think it's such an important part of the whole show. Yeah, is the casting. Casting. So, you know, that seems to be like the great secret sauce of any show. And you know, that there's that old saying that casting is 80% of directing, you know.

Absolutely. How did you go about picking these 22 dancer, actor, singer, performers? And how did you know that they were the right people for this show? Well, you don't really. You just kind of go on your instinct. I didn't have any preconceived idea of what I was looking for. I mean, I could have shed I could have said, okay, so Bob had six gorgeous girls, beautiful girls, long-legged, gorgeous girls in competition with each other. And then he had some oddball people. Like he had me. I was a small guy. He had John Minio, so he matched me with that. He had this beautiful concert dancer called uh Geneva Burke, and then Jill Cook. And then and Dick Cortez, who was the older man, character man in the mix.

So, and then he had men, like tall men, like men. He had Ross Miles, who actually did do a sex change, but was a gorgeous ballerina at that time. So he did a mixture of 16 people in his way. I wanted it to be eclectic. I wanted it to be ethnic. I wanted it to be something that represented our world and generation today. So I was keeping myself wide open for whatever. And you you know, you do uh, I don't know, there was like, I guess because of the pandemic, there I usually do a hundred people at a time. So we went down to like 35, 40 people, which is a small room, but okay. So you kind of like teach the steps and look in the room, and a couple of people start popping out before you even break down into groups.

Um, and you I got my eye on some people, and then we make it down smaller, and then you know, you keep those special in individuals that you think will be interesting, and you keep honing it down, honing it down, honing it down, and you come up with a cast, and hopefully it's the perfect cast. And I really think I locked I lucked out. Yeah. So it's instinct, really. Yeah. It's just a feeling. Yeah, something you can't really articulate. Yeah, when you look at someone, you know, oh, that person's interesting. And and they all like it all started out with just their dance ability and how beautiful they were as a dancer and just unique, interesting characters. Yeah. Well, it's it's it's fascinating because almost every person we've spoken to has paid compliments to you and to Corinne about the space that you've created in the quote unquote room. Yeah. Right. That they feel safe and supported and comfortable and free to be themselves. How do you go about creating that type of culture? I just love, I guess, and respect.

[38:19] Wayne Cilento: I've done other things, but I was so aware of what a director actually does. And, you know, talking to the Robert Brills and talking to Finn Ross and talking to Dave Grill and Reed and Harriet, and it's like getting setting up the tone of the design for the thing. So it was very kind of conscious of how that mechanism worked. And then there's the reconstruction part of it, which was kind of almost impossible. And it took an army. I mean, I have Kristen Colby, and then I had Corinne, and then Lauren even helped, you know, assist them reconstructing Bob's work because it wasn't like me going into the room and being free to do choreography. This wasn't about me as a choreographer. It was about representing Bob and getting him back and doing his choreography and everything that we have done.

And then I like I said about me in the room, I just felt like if I was a director that didn't do the show and get the accolades that I did, I think I would have been left less self-conscious about getting up and showing some of the material. So I kind of like picked and chose moments that I needed to insert. And it's interesting because our Corinne's and my relationship kind of changed because Corinne turned into changed in what she was doing my what I do, what I used to do, run around and do it all. Like just get the floor moving. And I looked back one day and I went, oh my God, she's me. She's doing me. And I was kind of sad because I was letting go of that part of me because I was looking at the whole picture.

And I needed to be really specific and focused on how I want the things to move and what the transitions were and how the set was moving and what Finn was doing. And so it was a big journey for me. The whole show has been a major journey. What are you the most proud of with this production?

[40:18] Wayne Cilento: I just think honoring Bob and doing that work. And I feel like I did that. I think the show is gorgeous, but it's more about making him proud and getting him back on the boards. That was the biggest goal, the scariest goal. And I feel like I've I've even gone beyond dancing. I've gone into his life and opened up anyone that comes into the theater. If you know Bob Fosse, if you don't know Bob Fosse, if you have a preconceived idea about who Bob Fosse is and what he does or not, you're gonna walk into the show and you're gonna hopefully fall in love with this creative genius that's really done a lot of theatrical film work, TV work, just a big influence in the dance world. Someone once said that all that jazz is the autobiography of his life, but dancing is the autobiography of his movement.

Yeah. Which I thought was like a really good way of. And I wanted to put the show into a sound stage. And my dream was Bob Fosse is filming dancing today. That's kind of like the conceptual whole thing. And I still would love to film this. But I need to get someone that's really good to film it because it's really hard to represent Bob and do like even a commercial. It was like you can't put that commercial out there because the music's not matching to the choreography. And the steps are not good enough. The footage, the where you're shooting it from is not what he would do. I mean, like I'm like crazy about how obsessed I am. But it's like you can't do that. You if you're gonna do something, it's gotta be flawless and gorgeous and interesting. So for my money, nobody ever filmed dance better than Bob Fosse.

[42:12] Rob Russo: Oh, of course.

[42:13] Wayne Cilento: Of course. So like that's what we're up against here. It's tough. It's tough. Well, I I've noticed something in a lot of interviews that you've done, and you even did it with us today, and maybe you don't even know you're doing it. But when you talk about Bob, you often talk about him in the present tense.

[42:30] Rob Russo: Oh wow. Is Bob still with you?

[42:33] Wayne Cilento: Yeah. Yeah. Sorry. Definitely. Yeah.

[42:41] Rob Russo: If you could like have coffee with him today, what would you want to ask him? What would you want to tell him?

[42:48] Wayne Cilento: How did I do? Is it okay? You know, that kind of stuff. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And what do you think he would think of the show today?

[42:58] Wayne Cilento: I think he would love it. I'm sure he would have notes. Um, but I think he'd be proud that I pushed some buttons that maybe people didn't want me to push. But I felt like I had the responsibility um to do something that, you know, he was he was deep. I mean, he had some a lot to say about stuff, very political and very patriotic, and just you know, I just I needed to not be afraid and just go for it. I mean, I didn't, you know, I didn't know how I was gonna come out with it, but I just felt like I needed to just go. Because he would go, and probably be more than worse than me, but so the sequence of the show that I think uh perhaps best bears your mark is Big City Mime, right? Because it's the piece that you've resurrected that was cut from Boston originally and put together that is sort of this whole new ballet, right?

That of course it's not new because it's all his movement, right? And pulling from all the different, you know, parts of his uh his career. How did you go about putting that piece together? Seems impossible to me.

[44:08] Wayne Cilento: Um I'm really proud of it to the truth. But it took a complete six, five week pre-production time. There was nothing, no music, no connection. We didn't at one point we didn't want to use things like you know, signature big spender. We kind of like David did orchestrations of kind of it, sound like it, but didn't sound like it, and went around the material. I mean, I don't know where the hell my head was, but I had this vision about pulling these pieces together, and I wanted to string them together, and I knew the stuff I wanted to hit on, and you know, the different vocabulary, like the alley dance. Everything in big city mime was pretty much already in place. He did all of those locations.

So I felt like I had the opportunity to go to those locations, like the street and do like Big Spender and show his influence about um how he came up with Sweet Charity, and then I loved always loved Liza with the Z gotcha, and I so I thought, okay, so the pimps, let's bring them on the street too. Let's create, you know, all of those nicknames that she calls him Flash, those are all Bob Fosse's nicknames that Nicole said. Even at the end when he goes Baldy, that's Bob's nickname, also. So every single name is what they used to call Bob. So no one knows that, but who cares? Now they do.

[45:36] Rob Russo: Now they do, yeah.

[45:37] Wayne Cilento: Well, it was kind of like fun, right? Yeah, yeah. And um, so, and you know, it just evolved, and then you know, even my even my creative team like thought I was out of my mind. You know what? I don't know, but uh, I'm very proud of it. And I don't even know if people really get what I was trying to do. I it just wasn't working in San Diego, and I it was like I never fulfilled the ending, and now I did. Now I figured out how to do it. So it's transitions, yeah, right? Yeah, yeah, it's well that, but even the big whiteout in in the uh in the snake dance pose. I had them all leave and left and left Peter there, and it was okay, and it got like a polite applause. Yeah. And I went, oh, that's not right.

And I actually even thought about putting big uh big city mime at the end of the first act and moving dancing man where big city mime was, and everyone was really against that, and they were very politely saying to me, Do you really think you should do that? And I went, I don't know. It just doesn't uh DANCIN' Man just is the low-key ending. I don't know, you know, and then I finally came to the realization like, okay, let's leave it alone. I'll fix big uh uh big city mime, I'll put an ending to that, we'll change Peter the transition, we'll do dancing man choreography, so it's not like he's trying to figure out steps, and then we'll do dance a man, and it worked out.

[47:08] Rob Russo: Certainly did.

[47:08] Wayne Cilento: I didn't, yeah, yeah. It really lands.

[47:10] Rob Russo: Yeah, it lands. We were in San Diego, and it's interesting when we saw Big City Mime for the first time in New York, we couldn't figure out exactly what was different, but it was clear that it was landing, right? They were totally the same piece, basically, with whatever tweaks you just mentioned, but to us, it wasn't it was hard to tell what those were, other than the fact that the audience got it.

[47:33] Wayne Cilento: Now they get it. And they were and it's it's you know, it's it's so interesting to me. We've talked about this several times, that the things that people go crazy for, the Eliza with a Z stuff and sweet charity.

[47:45] Rob Russo: Yeah.

[47:45] Wayne Cilento: Anytime there's a sweet, when Corey comes down, in people. Yeah, people with all the stuff that she has, and she comes out, she does this little thing, they're screaming. I mean, they're screaming for for other reasons. But well, there's a there's a story that I read, and you'll have to tell me whether or not it's true because you were there. Nicole said we'd have to ask you. Oh god. But on uh on a Sunday matinee during previews of dancing and you know, in the original production. Yeah, uh, apparently uh, you know, all the casts gathered on stage one day, and Bob was there. And the question was posed to him if you could get one thing out of the show, what would you want to get out of it? And he thought for a second, then he said, I'd want hair. I'd want hair, you know.

[48:24] Wayne Cilento: Oh my god. Uh which is a funny punchline. I don't know if you remember that, but I don't remember that. Yeah. But so we asked Nicole this, and now, you know, to close, we'll ask you this. What is your wish for this production? If this production could do, you know, one thing, what would you want it to do?

[48:41] Wayne Cilento: Um I would really like it to be a hit, a big hit for him and me, of course. I want him to get the recognition, and I want people to go, wow, he was a genius and ahead of his time. He always pushed envelopes, he always was ahead of himself. I think, you know, I keep on saying the technology and all that stuff. If he had that today, what would he have done with it? He would have probably done three times more than what I've done in some very unique, interesting way. So I want him to get the the full recognition of the genius that he was.

[49:20] Jamie DuMont: Thank you for welcome creating this new production and for honoring him in this way and for giving us all the opportunity. You know, we're we're a part of it as co-producers, and we're so honored to be involved in that way. But just to hear the audiences, to see the audiences, and to know that this work is alive. I think it's really needed. I think audience has starved for this. The celebration, the fun, just feeling that emotion and what those kids put out. It's really it's really good. It's a good time for dancing now. And I'm I thought it was like too late, but I'm glad it like fell into this place. It's like we're supposed to be here now.

[50:00] Rob Russo: Well, thank you.

[50:01] Jamie DuMont: Thank you.

[50:02] Wayne Cilento: Thanks, we appreciate it.

[50:10] Jamie DuMont: A dancing man with footsteps on the Bob Fosse's dancing is now on Broadway at the Music Box Theater. For tickets and more information, visit dancinbway.com.

[50:24] Jamie DuMont: Dancing Man, a Fabulous Invalid podcast, is a production of OM etc. and the Fabulous Invalid LLC, and a proud member of the Broadway Podcast Network. Special thanks to Civilian for hosting us and to our audio engineer Kyle Moore. If you liked this episode, we've got over a hundred episodes of the Fabulous Invalid Podcast that you can check out, including a two-parter on the life, work, and legacy of Bob Fosse and Gwen Verdon. You can find us online at the Fabulous Invalid.com and on social media at Fabulous Invalid and on iTunes, Spotify, and wherever you get your podcasts.