This transcript was automatically generated and might contain errors.

[0:10] Rob Russo: Welcome to DANCIN’ Man, a Fabulous Invalid podcast featuring exclusive behind-the-scenes interviews with the cast and creative team of Bob Fosse's DANCIN’ on Broadway.

[0:18] Jamie DuMont: I'm Jamie DuMont, and we're your hosts.

[0:21] Rob Russo: We're also excited to be co-producers of DANCIN’ on Broadway and thrilled as always to be back in the Rosevale Cocteau room at Civilian for another great conversation.

[0:29] Jamie DuMont: Yes, and I feel like I say this every week that this week is a special one, but this week is a special one because we're talking to our lead producer Joey Parnes.

[0:36] Rob Russo: Who, and we are very fond of Joey Parnes.

[0:39] Jamie DuMont: Yes, yes, yes.

[0:40] Rob Russo: If you don't know who Joey is, he's now in his fifth decade working on Broadway. He's an eight-time Tony Award-winning producer and general manager who runs Joey Parnes Productions, aka The Parnes Office, which has been behind such hits as Hello, Dolly!, Bright Star, The Humans, Gentleman's Guide to Love and Murder, Hair, and so much more.

[0:58] Jamie DuMont: Earlier in his career, Joey worked on such iconic shows as Dreamgirls, La Cage aux Folles, Grand Hotel, and Bring in 'da Noise, Bring in 'da Funk. He served as the executive producer and later the interim executive director of the Public Theater, as well as the coordinating producer of the Tony Awards from 2001 to 2008, and since 2012, the producer of the Drama Desk Awards.

[1:18] Rob Russo: Joey, for my money, is one of the true unsung heroes of Broadway who works behind the scenes to make all the magic happen. And we're so thrilled to have the very rare chance to chat with him about that work.

[1:29] Jamie DuMont: Okay, two things. I think A, that's one of the biggest bios we've had.

[1:33] Rob Russo: Yes.

[1:34] Jamie DuMont: And B, it's going to take everything within my power not to talk about Dreamgirls with Joey Parnes.

[1:40] Rob Russo: Yes.

[1:41] Jamie DuMont: Well, it's gonna be tough.

[1:42] Rob Russo: But I think I can do it.

[1:43] Jamie DuMont: Let's try.

[1:44] Rob Russo: Okay, let's try.

[1:45] Jamie DuMont: Here's our conversation with Joey Parnes.

[1:58] Joey Parnes: Thank you for joining us. Welcome to the show.

[2:01] Rob Russo: DANCIN’ opened to great reviews. We're now a couple of weeks into the run, so I have to ask, how are you feeling today?

[2:09] Joey Parnes: Well, I think the show speaks for itself, and the ecstatic audience response that we seem to get after every performance is kind of the key. I have rarely seen audiences come out of a theater as high as the audience comes out of the Music Box Theater every performance.

[2:29] Joey Parnes: And so the proof is in that. I always say the audience is never wrong. And they have let us know by virtue of their reactions to the show that they kind of love it. There have been very few experiences that I'm aware of where there's a partial or even full standing ovation in the middle of a show. Bette Midler got it when she sang Hello, Dolly! But at the top of Act Two, on certainly on opening night, we had a full standing ovation after "Sing, Sing, Sing." And I think each night the audience wants to do that. They just don't realize they're allowed to. So they do everything else short of that. And then there are a few people who do actually stand up. But the audience response to me is the validation, if you will, for why it was important to do the show and how it's having an impact on theater people today.

[3:32] Rob Russo: Well, you're the lead producer of the show, and the term producer, I think, can mean a lot of things to a lot of different people, especially in different facets of the entertainment industry. So I'm wondering if you could share for our listeners just how you describe what it is that a producer does, and then your office is also the general manager for the show. So, what does a general manager do versus what a producer does? And how do you navigate the two?

[3:54] Joey Parnes: I'll answer the second question first, if that's okay. Because I grew up, I was an assistant to a producer, and then I was an assistant company manager and then a company manager. And anyway, I worked my way up over many years from the management side. So over the years, especially when I transitioned into being a producer, I came to the conclusion that producing and managing are on a spectrum. At one end of the spectrum, there are things that are, you know, producery, like casting. General managers don't generally go to an audition. And on the other end of the spectrum, there are things that are managerial, like producers don't usually negotiate contracts, okay? But in between, in that in-between part of that spectrum, there are so many overlapping issues that play into one another.

[4:52] Joey Parnes: So the general manager part of my brain understands the economics, but the producer part of my brain understands what the artistic vision is. And I think you end up with a better outcome when there's real communication between those two, so that you're making artistic decisions that can live within a budget. You're making budgetary decisions that actually fulfill the artistic vision of the creative team. And when there isn't that kind of communication, you can end up making a mistake or have issues that you wouldn't otherwise have. The way I offset the fact that it can never be a good idea for all of that to be happening in the brain of one human is I surround myself with people who are smarter than I am and who are just as devoted and dedicated to the final thing that we're all working on together.

So that it's really a collaborative effort in the office in terms of managing and producing, and some people kind of are on a management track and some people are on a producer track, but we're constantly overlapping.

[6:02] Joey Parnes: And so the way I kind of think about producing and managing is that they're together. And so, you know, and that's developed over a number of years, and I wouldn't really know how to produce a show that I wasn't managing, and I wouldn't ever really want to manage a show that I wasn't producing, because I just see too many ways that those issues are integrated, and in order to make the best choices, in order to make the right decisions, you really need to be informed from both heads, if you will. So that's kind of my philosophy, but it's also the way we operate at our office.

[6:51] Joey Parnes: In terms of, you know, what does a producer do? I mean the word has been applied to lots of different people, and it's, I guess it's accurate in terms of how it is applied to lots of different people, but the fact is there are hands-on producers, you know, who like get into the mud of it all, and then there are producers who raise money and make big decisions and delegate to others to get a lot of the stuff done. I am a mud producer.

[7:27] Joey Parnes: I rather—Is that a technical term?

[7:29] Joey Parnes: Well, that's my term. I much prefer being in the mud of it all. I don't like being distanced from the people or from the problems. I like the problems, and so for me, producing is working with all the people that you see on the title page of a program and all the people that you see in the credits section of the program, and enabling everybody to do their best work, enabling everybody to work together in the best conceivable way, and creating an environment where all of that can happen.

[8:05] Joey Parnes: So to me, it's creating not just an environment, but creating a sense of family, creating a sense of community, creating an atmosphere where there is no fear, where people can ask questions, where people can come up with ideas that sound a little crazy but actually could turn out to be great, or could inspire someone else to come up with a great idea. And so for me, yeah, producing involves picking the show and putting the team together and raising the money and all of those things. But in a grander sort of philosophical sense, I think it's creating the environment where everybody who is collaborating on that particular show can do their best work. And when that works really well, when everybody's in sync, the outcome is terrific, whether the show is a financial success or not.

[9:02] Joey Parnes: And I've kind of worked on a bunch of shows that were very successful and shows that were technically not successful, but everyone felt really good about what they did and how their contribution made the show the thing that it was. And in my view, that meant all the shows were successful, regardless of whether they made money or ran a long time or won an award. Those are not things that motivate me as a producer.

[9:31] Rob Russo: Would you say that the producer-general manager office business model is unique to Broadway, or is it a common practice?

[9:40] Joey Parnes: I think there are just a few of us who do that. Mostly general managers do management. Some have begun to be executive producers, which is a kind of bridge position between general manager and producer. I think there are maybe two or three offices that do both in the way that we do.

[10:24] Rob Russo: Was there a show in which, or show or a moment in your career where you said, okay, this is the first one where we're gonna produce it and we're gonna general manage it? Do you remember when that was?

[10:37] Joey Parnes: Yes. It was kind of a gradual development on one level. I was when I left the Public Theater, I started working with Liz McCann. And at one point, you know, she decided to give me the title of executive producer. And that was nice, but it didn't change what I was doing. You know, I was doing whatever I was doing. I was helping to raise money, I was the general manager. I was, you know, in the midst of pretty much everything. As our relationship developed and as we did more and more, I got more involved in a number of the elements of putting the show together. But the probably the moment where it all congealed was when the tour of Hair was already booked and the company was engaged and we had a schedule and I was the executive producer and general manager, and at that point, Liz was not involved anymore, but we basically lost our lead producer.

And so the choice was what do we do? The Public Theater was still a part of the productoral mix, but they were really not in a position to drive that. I couldn't see walking away from the project, considering how many people were already committed to it and all the presenters were ready to receive the show.

[12:04] Joey Parnes: And so I took a leap and said, okay, I'll do this. That was really the first time that I actually, you know, took on the responsibility as a liability producer, you know, the responsibility, the day-to-day, the mechanics of it all, I had been doing for quite some time. But that was when I went, oh, okay, I've now gotten to this other place. And I was petrified, literally petrified. But I felt like I had no choice, because of you know, all the people who were involved. And then it turned out to be, you know, okay. Because the general manager was really good. Made sure that the show didn't well like go over budget or whatever. Well, it did probably. But you know, we were able to, I would say, oh, it's always a miracle, but miraculously we were able to turn that tour into a profitable tour, which at the beginning it wasn't clear that it would ever be.

And then once that happened, then it became like, oh, I guess so. This is what I'm gonna do. I think it was the Verden Fosse legacy that shared on Instagram, either before the first preview or opening night, that it was like 16 or 18 years in the making, basically, you know, saying it took a long time to get this show on Broadway. I'm curious along the path of this new production of DANCIN' and you know, finally opening, when did you get involved and how did it come about?

[13:32] Joey Parnes: I had not been involved for all that time. Yeah, there was at one point, the show was gonna be done at the Old Globe, but there were issues connected to some of the mechanics of putting the show together that weren't quite aligning. And so Barry Edelstein, who's the artistic director of the Old Globe, with whom I've done a number of shows, and we have a great relationship, came to visit me in the office. I can remember exactly when, it was December of 2019. Sat on the couch and basically said, would you be willing to help in this endeavor? And I said, of course. And so that was when I got involved in December of 2019, which of course was just a few months prior to March of 2020 when the whole world shut down.

So that's when I got involved. We realized that we had to get all the music rights, that the music rights had not merged with the show 45 years ago. So everything had to be newly acquired, and that was gonna take a bunch of time. Well, guess what we had? You know, because of the shutdown, we spent a lot of time getting those rights lined up. Then at a certain point, we realized that doing the reconstruction of the actual Fosse choreographic steps was going to require a lot of very painstaking time with a small group of people. And so once we got past a certain moment in the pandemic when we could be in a room with folks, even if we were wearing masks, we started that process.

[15:21] Joey Parnes: But it was I can't remember the precise number of sessions that we did, but there were quite a few sessions where with a small handful of dancers, Wayne and the creative team got together and basically pieced it all back. And so we took advantage of all of that time when no one was able to put a show on to get the work ready. And it was way more involved than I think anyone realized at first what it was gonna take. And then once we emerged out of the worst part of the pandemic, we organized a work session. First, of course, we had to cast the show, and you know, doing auditions during the pandemic, that was a huge challenge. Although, in retrospect, it may have actually been a boon because we, you know, Tara Rubin's office, they must have gotten over a thousand video submissions.

A thousand video submissions that they actually had to look at. You know, that got whittled down to 500 people who were then invited to come to in-person auditions. And of course, at that point in the pandemic, we were, you know, wearing masks most of the time, but not wearing masks some of the time. And so it was complicated. You'd have a room of, you know, 30 dancers, they were all learning a complicated dance routine with masks on, but then at the moment when finally they were ready to perform it, they could take their masks off. It was, as I say it now, it all seems so quaint and what's the big deal. But at the time, you know, every choice we made was, you know, feeling like we were taking our lives in our hands a little bit.

[17:19] Joey Parnes: But that audition process took quite a long time to get from a thousand to five hundred down to ultimately the 16 and four understudies that we put together for the work session. And that group was also the group that eventually went to the Old Globe and basically came to Broadway. And the 16, the 16 are the same 16 that are now on Broadway. The understudies that shifted a little bit. We had four in San Diego, two chose not to continue on with the show, and then we added four. So now we have six, but I like to call it a company of 22 because those understudies are phenomenal, and they are virtually interchangeable with anybody in the company. And you know, they're all amazing. We talked to, we've talked to a couple of them, but we spoke to Afra just about her note process and how she actually captures what it is she has to do and retains it.

And all you have to do is listen to that and know that it is one of the hardest jobs out there. Understudies are unbelievable, especially in a show like this where each of them covers a certain number of tracks, okay? And sometimes the tracks overlap. Sometimes, you know, you need to learn what this guy is doing over on stage right in the same number that you're now learning what this other person is doing on stage left, and you have to keep that straight in your head. So understudies' brains are kind of amazing. They should be studied.

[18:59] Joey Parnes: They should be. And the other thing we've learned, which I don't think Rob and I had ever thought about before we did this podcast, which was not only is it the choreography on stage, but it's the backstage choreography. It's the quick changes that the understudies that everyone has to learn, but particularly the understudies, because if you're doing one track, it's going to be different than the other track. It's just it's endless. And it's also really a matter of safety, more than it's a matter of performance, because the speed with which everything takes place backstage in terms of scenery, props, costume changes, insane. The dressers are on the same plane as the dancers, if you ask me. They run around back there like unbelievable.

There are only eight of them, and they have to change those quiz. Some of those changes are so fast. And so they have, I don't know if you've ever seen this, but they took the DANCIN' logo that we created with SpotGo, and they've modified it into dressing, and it looks fabulous. It is so great. That's incredible. I love that. I think they're planning to make t-shirts because they showed I can't wait to see. I know where they can get them done.

[20:13] Joey Parnes: Before we move on with the show, I just have a quick question because you mentioned the music rights, and I just it ticked something in my brain, which is when you were doing the music rights process, and you know, the 78 production, the original production, had some music that didn't make it to the revival. And I'm curious, was some of that music rights, or were they artistic choices in terms of some of the music not coming over or not?

[20:40] Joey Parnes: Yeah, I would say that almost every decision that related to the cutting of things had nothing to do with rights, it had to do with Wayne's judgment about what would work today that you know it may have worked 45 years ago, but it wouldn't necessarily work today. And besides, the show was three acts in its original form, and now it is in two acts. So there was a certain amount of trimming that had to be done for all the obvious reasons. But we've been pretty lucky, I think, in getting the rights to the music that we needed. I'm not sure there was anything that we ultimately had to give up because we couldn't get the rights. There's a funny joke in the show about that, but it's just a joke. It was not really, don't tell anyone.

It's one of the better laughs in the world. And one of the best laughs ever, but we didn't really have that problem. No, but the but you know, one of the things about the show that was not exploited in the best sense of the word, exploited 45 years ago was once the show ran on Broadway and did a tour in across the United States, it played 10 weeks, a limited run at the Drury Lane in London. And I think the American company went to Tokyo for a week or something and did performances there, and that was it. The show was never licensed, it was never done anywhere else ever again. And one of the reasons was the difficulty of the choreography, obviously, but there are plenty of professional dance and theater companies around the world who could find dancers capable of it.

But the rights, the music rights did not get they didn't acquire the music rights worldwide, they got them for US, UK, and that was it. So what we're doing is we either have or are in the process of finalizing getting the rights worldwide, so that in success, this show can be done in its current form anywhere in the world. And we already are on the cusp of doing a major deal with somebody who wants to do it in nine different countries in Europe. We've got someone who is really interested in doing it all over South America. We've gotten people expressing great interest for doing it in Asia and Australia. So I think this is just another opportunity to burnish the reputation of Bob Fosse worldwide, because no one other than those few people I mentioned have ever seen the show in any form.

Now this version of DANCIN' is different than the original. It has lots of elements that come directly from the original, but then Wayne created a bunch of stuff that didn't exist, always using absolute Fosse choreography. So it's kind of a new production of an old title, is the way I like to think of it.

[23:51] Joey Parnes: Well, and the reality is if Bob had been alive to mount a revival of DANCIN’, a, he probably wouldn't have, but B, he wouldn't have done exactly the same thing.

[24:00] Rob Russo: Exactly.

[24:00] Joey Parnes: And I think that's very important to remember when we look at the current show because of that fact. It's sort of embedded in who he was as an artist. And so it makes perfect sense that Wayne, who is the only person, I think we all agree, that could ever have tackled this, right? Has that license to be able to have some freedom.

[24:23] Rob Russo: Right, but also it's very important to note that Nicole, who is Bob Fosse's daughter, has been involved every step of the way with the creative development of the show with Wayne, and nothing that Wayne has done has been without her absolute approval and embrace.

[24:43] Joey Parnes: So I agree with you that if Bob Fosse were here today, he would have either not done a revival or he would have done some newer version of that show. And so Wayne channeling Bob, but Nicole also doing that, I think they've come up with something that is unique, but also entirely authentic. It captures the spirit absolutely and the specificity of Bob Fosse's choreography, but it feels to me like a new show. It doesn't feel like quote unquote a revival. All the music's been re-arranged and reorchestrated, so it sounds more modern. And you know, the physical production looks nothing like it did 45 years ago. It is completely of today. And so, you know, I think we have the best of both worlds really. We have a new production that is really feeling new of a show that was really amazing 45 years ago.

[25:45] Rob Russo: I agree with all of that, and I will say, as somebody who saw the tour, and I think it was in 1980, 79 or 80 in Chicago, someone who saw the tour, and I was, you know, I was 11 or something. So the memory is foggy. But there are moments when I watched the production now, and I think particularly like the costumes in "Ding," uh, percussion one, excuse me. And I think that looks very much like what I remember the feel of the show, and it's also current very, very modern. Same most of the product, most of the costumes in percussion tick that box for me. And it's throughout the entire show.

[26:19] Joey Parnes: So it is a great blend of all the worlds that currently sort of float around the Fosse Empire. One of the things that Jamie and I have learned in our very, very young producing careers is that you have to love the piece that you're working on, right? Because you're gonna dedicate every minute of your waking hours to it. So you really have to love it. And it's very clear in the conversations we've had and the meetings we've been privy to that everyone involved in the show really loves it. So I'm wondering if you could share for us what this show means to you personally and why you were so excited when Barry called you to say yes and to get involved.

[26:55] Joey Parnes: This isn't the only reason, but when I started working in the Krauss office in 1981 on Dreamgirls, I was the assistant company manager. The show was one of Marvin's shows. DANCIN’ had opened in 1978, it was running in 1981, and it was one of the shows in the Krauss office. And I was so new and so young and so dumb that I didn't know that I could ask to see it. And nobody invited me, for God's sake. And so I was working in the Krauss office for however long the rest of the run lasted, and I never saw the show. So the big reason I had to do it was because I never got to see it, so I needed to see it, and the only way to see it was to produce it.

[27:40] Rob Russo: I love that.

[27:41] Joey Parnes: That's a little arch of me. Anyway, this is a side note, and I probably won't use this, but is your current office the old Krauss office?

[27:47] Jamie DuMont: No.

[27:48] Joey Parnes: It isn't.

[27:48] Jamie DuMont: No, no.

[27:49] Joey Parnes: Okay.

[27:49] Jamie DuMont: But they were in that building, right?

[27:51] Joey Parnes: No.

[27:51] Jamie DuMont: Or was that Nico?

[27:52] Joey Parnes: I might think you have Nico. Nico was a floor above us in the Sardi building. The Krauss office was in the Neil Simon.

[28:02] Jamie DuMont: Oh, okay.

[28:03] Joey Parnes: And it had been the, if you're interested, you can cut this later if you want, but it's kind of cool. The Krauss office was a duplex apartment connected by a spiral staircase that used to be where Al and Vin lived together.

[28:19] Jamie DuMont: No.

[28:19] Joey Parnes: Of Alvin Theater. Before it was the Neil Simon, it was known as the Alvin Theater.

[28:23] Jamie DuMont: Well, it wasn't named for Alvin anybody. It was named for Al and Vin.

[28:26] Joey Parnes: And they were an item, and they lived in that apartment, okay? So it was a place where they lived. And then this was the apocryphal tale. I don't know if it's true, but one of them ended up hanging himself in one of the closets behind where Irv Siders was sitting when I started working there. And Irv loved to tell that story. I have no idea if it's true. But in any case, dark.

[28:55] Jamie DuMont: Yes.

[28:55] Joey Parnes: So Marvin was there for quite some time. And then actually, I think Manny Aisenberg took over that space when Marvin moved to the Sardi Building.

[29:04] Jamie DuMont: Okay, we are not cutting any of that, by the way.

[29:07] Joey Parnes: What a great piece of I didn't even know about Al and Vin.

[29:13] Jamie DuMont: Yeah.

[29:13] Joey Parnes: Well, I also love the, you know, if you want something done, do it yourself. You know, if you want to see DANCIN’, produce it yourself.

[29:18] Rob Russo: There you go.

[29:19] Joey Parnes: So there was this sort of personal connection to Marvin that I kind of felt it was my almost spiritual duty to continue, even though they didn't invite me to see it. I felt like this was meant to be, you know. And then because of the relationship I had with Barry, I definitely, you know, just I love working with Barry. I love working with the Old Globe. And so I wouldn't want to turn that down.

[29:49] Joey Parnes: Then I met Wayne, and that sealed the deal. Because here's the other funny thing. I remember exactly where I sat in the Krauss office. And there was this guy from DANCIN’ who came to visit so many times, and he'd walk by my desk, never talk to the guy, but I recognized him. It was Wayne. And when I said this to him the first time we met, he went, Oh my god, oh yeah. He sort of kind of remembered that whole thing. And I said this on opening night, and I actually meant it. Wayne is the brother I didn't know I had until I started working on this show. I love working with him. We really kind of have this mind meld, and we can say anything to each other, we fight, it doesn't matter, you know, we argue, it doesn't matter because we both know that we're doing it because we care about what's best for the show.

[30:43] Joey Parnes: And so after sitting for a time with him, I went, oh, this I mean, I got I gotta do this in whatever way I can help, I wanted to help. And then I met with Nicole, and we got along also, and so it just all felt like I was in service to this goal that she had had for quite some time, and that Barry was now trying to make happen, that Wayne wanted to, and one of the things that inspires me to do what I do is to enable others to do what they do. Because you know, what do I do? You know, I'm amazed at what people like Wayne are capable of doing. And so I know that I can create structures both economic and otherwise, where that work can get done. And so to me, it was like, oh my God, I was called to this, and in many respects, I felt called to it. And therefore, I almost had no choice. Because it felt, you know, too important and too good to not do it.

[31:49] Joey Parnes: And then, and then as you know, as I got more and more involved with more and more of the folks, you know, connected to it, you're absolutely right. There's no way do you work on anything unless you love it. It's hard enough to do any of this stuff when you do love it. But to not love something and that you're spending all this time on that you're gonna have to see over and over again, it's uh no. And I've now seen, I don't know how many times I've seen the show, I can't keep track, but I never get tired of watching it. I because there are 16 unbelievable people on stage at any given moment. You can only look at what, two or three of them at a single glance. And so there's just so much going on.

[32:31] Joey Parnes: In fact, a number of people, both at the Old Globe and in New York already, have come back multiple times to see the show because of what I just said. It's obviously very entertaining, but you miss some of it because there's so much going on and it goes by so fast. The treasurer at the Music Box said that he's never seen this early in the run, so many people come to the box office after they've seen the show to buy tickets to see it again. And he's been doing this for 20 years. It was just, it's that kind of an experience.

[33:05] Joey Parnes: So for me, it was, you know, to call it a labor of love, sure. But I, you know, it was elemental in many respects.

[33:16] Rob Russo: Well, you're talking to two of those repeat offenders.

[33:19] Jamie DuMont: So I would dare say that we’re probably just below you in terms of number of times seeing.

[33:25] Joey Parnes: For a certain period of time, I was actually banned from buying tickets. I actually had to buy the limited tickets on Telecharge.

[33:31] Rob Russo: And I was like, okay, all right, we get it.

[33:33] Joey Parnes: Well, speaking of opening night, in that same curtain speech you referenced a moment ago, you also said it's a miracle just to get something to Broadway.

[33:41] Rob Russo: Right.

[33:42] Joey Parnes: Your work doesn't end the day after the show opens. So what do you, what does your job entail now that the show is up and running?

[33:49] Joey Parnes: It's not like, you know, and I say this to young people who ask me the difference between TV and movies and the theater. Like, where should I work? And I go, well, I don't know where you should work. But here's what I'll tell you. When you're working on TV or a movie, you work on it, and when it's done, it's done. You know, it's in a can and that's it. Whereas in theater, it's never done. You never actually finish. You open, but there is all kinds of maintenance. There's all kinds of keeping it going, keeping it fresh, having to replace people as their contracts expire. We're certainly not there yet, but there's an enormous amount of that kind of thing that goes into keeping the show as pristinely perfect as it was on opening night.

[34:36] Joey Parnes: That involves stage managers, that involves associate director choreographers, that involves a lot of people. Wayne also coming to note the show. So from a creative aspect, that's ongoing. But from a producorial perspective, we're still having to sell tickets. We're still having to promote the show. We're still needing to get the word out because it especially in this environment where there's so many things competing for an audience's attention, you need to keep at it. You can't just rest on the fact that you opened and you got a bunch of great reviews, because that might have worked back in the day. It doesn't work at all anymore.

[35:19] Joey Parnes: So there's a whole lot of work involved in keeping the show in the public view, okay? There's, you know, we went on Good Morning America after we opened. We're hoping to go on one of the late night shows. There's even a thought that if we can finagle it, we're gonna go on So You Think You Can Dance or one of those shows.

[35:44] Joey Parnes: So there's a lot of that work that involves our participating. If we're lucky enough to get nominated for a Tony, there's an enormous amount of work that goes into, well, what are we gonna do on the telecast and how are we putting that together? And it, you know, you generally can't do exactly the same number that you do in the show, so it has to be modified.

[36:10] Joey Parnes: And you have to collaborate with the Tony producers, you have to collaborate with the director. I mean, there's just a lot of other work that goes into that. So it's maintaining the show, it's keeping the word out, getting more and more folks to want to see it, and then doing all the things that one must do to keep it in the public view.

[36:32] Joey Parnes: The road conference is coming up in a few weeks. I want the show to go on the road. I think it would be perfect on the road, but the presenters need to see it. And you know, they might have questions. I wanna be available to answer them. So there's a lot of back and forth that goes on in that process. Because ultimately, yes, do I want the show to recoup and make lots of money? Absolutely. Do I want it to win every award it deserves? Absolutely. Is that what's driving me? No. What's driving me is I want more people to see this show.

[37:04] Joey Parnes: I want more people to experience what I experience, what you have obviously experienced, because it's not like anything else. It really is in its own lane. When you think about current Broadway shows, there's really nothing like it. I think we have a sort of obligation almost to make sure that potential audiences understand that that's what this is.

[37:31] Joey Parnes: And often people will come and they will be shocked. They'll go, oh, I thought I was going to a revival. And I didn't know it was gonna be like this. So somehow we need to get that across as much as possible, because I think if people understood that that's what the experience would be, they would be much more inclined to come right away.

[37:53] Joey Parnes: Now some people can be diffident, they'll go, well, you know, I'll wait and see. Does it get nominated? Is it gonna be on the tele? Whatever, whatever people use to make choices about what they go to see, because there's a lot of choices to make in this season. All of that is part of the ongoing job of a producer to keep the show alive in every conceivable way.

[38:14] Jamie DuMont: Well, I have to ask you what has increasingly become the impossible question on this podcast. And that is do you have a favorite moment or song?

[38:22] Joey Parnes: I'm sorry, you're breaking up. Pick your favorite child, is what I'm asking, really.

[38:28] Joey Parnes: You know, honest to God, I don't. And part of it is that I have three kids. And if you asked me if I had a favorite kid, there would be no way I would answer that question because I don't. I love each one of my kids differently, because they're each different. But my God, no, I would never be able to say I had a favorite.

[38:51] Joey Parnes: And honestly, I love every minute of this show. I love every one of those dancers. Every time they go on, I marvel at what they're capable of doing. And I just go, oh my God, they're so great. And because I am lucky enough to see it as often as I have, it's like, oh, I never noticed that she does that. Or I never realized that they were doing that at that moment.

[39:17] Joey Parnes: And there's just constant discovery in that respect, but it's also just being actually in awe of their talent and their devotion. Like these folks love what they're doing. All 22 of them are so happy to be doing this show. And it shows every night when they perform it, they are so devoted and dedicated.

[39:40] Joey Parnes: By the way, this is the first show I've ever done where we've had an out of town, and the exact same principal team cast has arrived on Broadway. Usually you lose a couple of people, usually there's, you know, somebody gets another job, whatever. But that happened with the understudies. It did not happen with the 16 non-understudies.

[40:04] Joey Parnes: I don't know what I don't know. I don't want to make a distinction because to me they're all part of the same company. It's an ensemble of principles, and they are all amazing. But no, I can honestly say there, I do not have any favorite moments. It's whatever moment I happen to be looking at is my favorite.

[40:22] Jamie DuMont: Well, that was the right answer, Joey. So you passed the test.

[40:25] Rob Russo: Yeah. Spoken like the gentleman that you are.

[40:29] Jamie DuMont: So we have two final questions, and I'm sure this one will be much easier to answer, and that is what does Bob Fosse mean to you?

[40:37] Joey Parnes: You know, it's funny, I don't have any real association with Bob Fosse. I was a Michael Bennett guy.

[40:44] Joey Parnes: I worked on Dream Girls, I worked on, you know, the thing that never came to fruition called Scandal. But I was very much in the orbit of Michael Bennett for the years that I was working at the Kraussovers from 1981 until, you know, we brought the tour of Dream Girls back to Broadway in 1987.

[41:05] Joey Parnes: And so for me, that was my world, that's how I grew up. That's what I how I learned what I learned. And you know, I knew that Bob Fosse existed, but I didn't have any relationship to him at all.

[41:20] Joey Parnes: And I will tell you what I have learned working on the show, because obviously Bob Fosse is an icon, and so I was interested in participating in that. But I already told you the ultimate reasons why, the deeper reasons why I wanted to do the show.

[41:36] Joey Parnes: What I learned though is the depth of his choreographic capability, the scope of his style, okay, is so not what most people have thought it is. Nothing against Chicago, because it's fabulous that it's run this long. But because it's run this long, people have associated that style of choreography, the white gloves, the bowler hats, this, you know, they think that's Fosse.

[42:11] Joey Parnes: In fact, some people have actually commented after coming to DANCIN', well, this isn't authentic Fosse choreography, because it's not what I know from Chicago. And we want to go, no, no, no, no, you don't understand. Because that's the thing that I think is so revelatory about the production.

[42:30] Joey Parnes: That's why I think Nicole wanted to do this so much, and why once I understood that, why I was a complete and utter buy-in, because no one choreographs like this today. There are great choreographers today, obviously, but this style is so specific to him.

[42:52] Joey Parnes: And yet there's such variety in it. That was the thing that shocked me. It was like, oh, he does that. Oh, that, you know, there's so much richness in what he created, and what Wayne has done so smartly is he's put it all together.

[43:14] Joey Parnes: He's drawn choreography from other sources, not just from the original production of DANCIN', and he's put it all together so that literally every step you see on that stage is a Bob Fosse choreographed step.

[43:27] Joey Parnes: The genius of our production is that Wayne figured out how to put all of that together so that it feels like one thing. For me, that's Bob Fosse. Like, oh my God, I had no idea that he had that depth of choreographic artistry. I just didn't. And now that I know, I feel even better that we did the show.

[43:51] Joey Parnes: Because, you know, a lot of people weren't aware of that, right? Because the show hasn't been done in all these years.

[44:00] Jamie DuMont: Well, we asked both Wayne and Nicole this question. So we'll close by asking you this. And we asked them because it was asked of Fosse by his cast in 1978 during an early preview. They asked him if you could get anything out of the show, what would you want to get out of it?

[44:14] Joey Parnes: And his answer was more hair, which is pretty good. So we want to ask you, you know, what is your wish for this new production of DANCIN'?

[44:24] Joey Parnes: My wish is for, I kind of said it already, that we manage to keep it running on Broadway, we get it on the road, we do it in Europe, we do it in South America, we do it in Australia, we spread the Fosse of it all around the world so that more people know and appreciate what he actually did.

[44:46] Joey Parnes: Because it's singular. And it's easy to kind of, you know, just say, oh, he was great. But only with experiencing the actual choreography performed, by the way, by unbelievably talented people, because this is not easy stuff, right?

[45:10] Joey Parnes: But to be performed by unbelievably talented people, I think that that is the mission of the show, is to get as many people in the world as possible to experience this so that they can appreciate and know just what a genius he was, but also so that they can have this sense of joy and ecstasy that those of us who go to see the show on a regular basis, or even just once, you know, most people come out of that theater high because it's that kind of energy, and you can't help but fall in love with each of those 16 people because you get to see each of them in a moment.

[45:51] Joey Parnes: You know, it isn't like a big chorus, it's not like a chorus, it's really 16 individuals, and you fall in love with them. So you're falling in love with each one of them, and you're seeing them do choreography that no one else has ever, you know, no one comes close to doing today. And the more people who get to experience that, to me, that's success. We have to spread the gospel of Fosse.

[46:13] Rob Russo: There you go.

[46:14] Jamie DuMont: Yeah. I know I speak for Rob when I say we are so delighted that you joined us today. Thank you so much.

[46:21] Joey Parnes: And thank you for having us be a part of the DANCIN' team. Because that has been a real privilege and honor and so much fun to just be in the room and watch it happen.

[46:31] Joey Parnes: And thank you for all of it.

[46:32] Jamie DuMont: Thank you for this, and also thank you for your ardent support and love for the show. It means a lot.

[46:39] Joey Parnes: It does, it really does mean a lot.

[46:47] Jamie DuMont: DANCIN' Man with footsteps on the sexy's DANCIN' is now on Broadway at the Music Box Theater.

[46:57] Joey Parnes: For tickets and more information, visit DancinBway.com.

[47:01] Jamie DuMont: DANCIN' Man: A Fabulous Invalid Podcast is a production of OM etc. and the Fabulous Invalid LLC, and a proud member of the Broadway Podcast Network.

[47:09] Joey Parnes: Special thanks to Civilian for hosting us and to our audio engineer, Kyle Moore.

[47:14] Jamie DuMont: If you liked this episode, we've got over a hundred episodes of the Fabulous Invalid Podcast that you can check out, including a two-parter on the life, work, and legacy of Bob Fosse and Gwen Verdon. You can find us online at the Fabulous Invalid.com and on social media at Fabulous Invalid and on iTunes, Spotify, and wherever you get your podcasts.