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[0:10] Rob Russo: Welcome to DANCIN’ Man, a Fabulous Invalid podcast featuring exclusive behind-the-scenes interviews with the cast and creative team of Bob Fosse's DANCIN’ on Broadway.

[0:18] Jamie DuMont: I'm Jamie DuMont, and we're your hosts.

[0:21] Rob Russo: And we're also excited to be co-producers of DANCIN’ on Broadway and thrilled as always to be back in the Rosevale Cocktail Room at Civilian for another conversation with a member of the production.

[0:31] Jamie DuMont: Yes, and joining us this week is Corinne McFadden Herrera, who is the associate director and musical stager for the show and also did additional choreographic reconstruction.

[0:41] Rob Russo: Corinne performed in the original Broadway companies of Aida, Wicked, and the 2005 Revival of Sweet Charity, the latter two of which she served as associate choreographer alongside Wayne Cilento, and all three of which were choreographed by Wayne.

[0:55] Jamie DuMont: So she's got a long, long connection to Wayne Cilento.

[0:58] Rob Russo: Yeah, and a varied career.

[1:00] Jamie DuMont: Oh my gosh, she's not at all.

[1:01] Rob Russo: She also is the one person that everyone brings up when they can't talk about Wayne without talking about Corinne.

[1:08] Jamie DuMont: Exactly.

[1:09] Rob Russo: I can't wait to speak to her.

[1:10] Jamie DuMont: Yeah, so let's do it. Here's our conversation with Corinne.

[1:23] Jamie DuMont: Corinne, welcome to the show.

[1:25] Corinne McFadden Herrera: Thank you for coming down.

[1:27] Corinne McFadden Herrera: So happy to be here.

[1:28] Corinne McFadden Herrera: DANCIN’ is in full swing. I happen to know this because I was at the performance last night.

[1:33] Corinne McFadden Herrera: I, um, in fact, I made the performance report my woo, um, after Corey sang, uh, "Life is a Bower Chairs."

[1:40] Jamie DuMont: Yeah, I saw that in the report this morning.

[1:42] Corinne McFadden Herrera: I didn't know it was you.

[1:43] Jamie DuMont: That woo was me.

[1:44] Corinne McFadden Herrera: It was very vocal.

[1:45] Corinne McFadden Herrera: But the show is in full swing. How are you feeling now that it's up, it's running? What's going on?

[1:50] Corinne McFadden Herrera: Um, you know, obviously I'm super proud. I'm also sometimes shocked that we did it all.

[1:58] Corinne McFadden Herrera: I got it up. Sometimes I look at it, I'm like, wow, it's pretty incredible.

[2:03] Corinne McFadden Herrera: But you know, there's still a lot of work to be done on my end because, you know, a lot of our, well, most of our understudies have now hit the deck, which has been awesome.

[2:11] Corinne McFadden Herrera: But I continue to forge ahead and get everybody ready and, uh, you know, pop in as much as I can.

[2:18] Corinne McFadden Herrera: I'm there every week. So, uh, but it's yeah, I don't know. I'm in that like one foot in, actually two feet in, one half a foot out phase right now where it's, um, I don't know, it's just kind of surreal to watch it up and going and watch the response.

[2:35] Corinne McFadden Herrera: And I like to see it every week because my eyes are fresher as I get a few days of not rest, but just a few days away, and then I come back in, I can see it with a different perspective. So that's been really kind of awesome.

[2:49] Jamie DuMont: That's interesting. So if you're there multiple times a week, do you miss certain things? Is what I'm hearing. It's like if you take a little bit of a break, you, the eagle eye is more focused.

[3:00] Corinne McFadden Herrera: Uh, yes, I would say so. I mean, I just, just from having supervised for a lot of years, it's, you know, there's a sweet spot where if you're watching too frequently, you can get focused on things that are not perhaps important to the bigger picture.

[3:18] Corinne McFadden Herrera: All the things are important, but sometimes you can start your eyes start to focus on something, seeing it repeatedly, and you lose a little bit of the freshness of, you know, really taking each performance as a living, breathing thing.

[3:33] Corinne McFadden Herrera: And it's not film and it's not edited, and so you have to be fully kind of with them on the ride and present in the moment. Matinees feel different than Saturday evenings.

[3:45] Corinne McFadden Herrera: You know, it's, uh, it's an energy exchange. So I try to see it at least a couple times a week, but not eight shows a week because it's gonna make my eyes fried, and that's not good for anybody.

[3:58] Corinne McFadden Herrera: And me being in their face and giving them lots of notes, that's not good for anybody.

[4:02] Jamie DuMont: Let's go back to the beginning a little bit. How did you meet Wayne Cilento? How did that partnership begin?

[4:06] Corinne McFadden Herrera: He loves to tell this story, and I should let him tell this story because he tells it better than me. But, um, he had already seen me dance because I danced in Mia Michaels' company in Raw.

[4:18] Corinne McFadden Herrera: And I walked into the audition for Aida, and it was very exciting, and everybody was there, and I put it all on the floor, and he had this amazing response to me.

[4:32] Corinne McFadden Herrera: And I came in and I sang. Then the callback happened, but I had a gig, and I was actually assisting Mia Michaels in a job in Hawaii.

[4:41] Corinne McFadden Herrera: So I was really tortured and unable. I mean, I've always been a person that like tries to follow through with whatever I've promised to do.

[4:51] Corinne McFadden Herrera: So it didn't feel comfortable to me to back out. So I called the casting director at Telsey. I said, I can't be there, and I'm really gutted, and I just really hope that he will consider me, you know, if anything comes up in the future, I would love to be seen again.

[5:04] Corinne McFadden Herrera: I really wanted to work with him. And, um, I went and did the gig and I came back and the callback happened, and then I got a call shortly after with an offer for the show with a feature.

[5:14] Corinne McFadden Herrera: He tells it better because from his perspective, he's like, "She's in the show, she's in the show. She's just in the show."

[5:20] Corinne McFadden Herrera: You know, I mean, that wasn't a great Wayne impersonation, but it was not bad.

[5:24] Jamie DuMont: I mean, the energy was correct.

[5:26] Corinne McFadden Herrera: That's right. The energy is correct. The accent might be a little, yet, I've got the New Jersey. He's got the Bronx, you know, he's from the Bronx, so it's a little different.

[5:34] Jamie DuMont: But well, after Aida, uh, you went on to work as assistant choreographer for Wayne on a little show called Wicked.

[5:40] Corinne McFadden Herrera: I did.

[5:41] Jamie DuMont: And, uh, the 2005 revival of Sweet Charity.

[5:44] Corinne McFadden Herrera: Yes.

[5:45] Jamie DuMont: So clearly you two clicked. He was right to clock you in that audition show.

[5:48] Corinne McFadden Herrera: We did, yeah. I started dance captaining Aida after, you know, about maybe a not even a year into the run, and then he had me as, uh, he asked me to assist him on.

[5:57] Corinne McFadden Herrera: We did a cruise ship together, and, um, our amazing collaboration and work relationship just blossomed from there.

[6:05] Corinne McFadden Herrera: He's always been like the best mentor and support system. He's just like, it reminds you that there's really people that can love you and support you and be super, uh, and prop you up, and that's what it should be.

[6:20] Jamie DuMont: Yeah. So how did the opportunity to be assistant choreographer come about?

[6:25] Corinne McFadden Herrera: He just asked, he invited me over, you know. Uh, he invited me over to his house in Mamaroneck to swim and hang out and wanted to talk to me about something, and I had already assisted him on a cruise ship show, so we had been through we had had like a really interesting, it was a new ship, and it was, uh, docked, dry docked in Nice, which was fabulous.

[6:46] Corinne McFadden Herrera: But the ship was beautiful, but we were supposed to pick up, uh, passengers and everything in Barcelona, and we went out to sea, and it was so rough that we had to turn around, and we were also teching, everybody was throwing up and like flying off the stage.

[7:02] Corinne McFadden Herrera: And Wayne and I ironically were not sick, but the whole lighting board was green in front of us, and he's like, "Well, can't you fix that cue?" And I'm like, "Wayne, they're just throwing up, so I think we probably need to put a pause on deck today."

[7:16] Jamie DuMont: So you had an adventure.

[7:21] Corinne McFadden Herrera: We had a fun adventure and we still got it done, and the shows turned out really quite beautiful. So, uh, yeah, so that was the beginning of our, uh, kind of work relationship shifting from, uh, you know, creator and dancer to something that progressed over the 25 years that I've known him and has grown and grown and grown.

[7:41] Corinne McFadden Herrera: He's, I learned so many things from him, and it's really been, I think, integral to my growth as an artist and my career.

[7:48] Jamie DuMont: Well, one thing I'm really curious about is Sweet Charity because obviously, you know, that's an iconic Bob Fosse show. And in 2005, you and Wayne worked together on creating, you know, new choreography or a new production of Sweet Charity, which is a big task to take on.

[8:04] Corinne McFadden Herrera: Oh, you really better believe it. As you were putting that together with him, what were those discussions like? What was the process like of deciding, you know, well, there's some iconic choreography, but also this is Wayne's version of Sweet Charity?

[8:17] Corinne McFadden Herrera: Yeah, we really grappled with it. We did so many months of pre-production on it. And also because, you know, coming from Wicked, which was an original piece and working on that together, and you know, it's one thing when it's like you're telling a story and it's free game, and like literally we together, when we have when we're clear about what the music is and what the story is, we both just vomit.

[8:45] Corinne McFadden Herrera: I mean, it's insane. Um, and that's what we, that's how we worked on Wicked. It would just like pour out of us.

[8:51] Corinne McFadden Herrera: And we also, I mean, there were so many phases of it. We would go in at eight o'clock in the morning and completely redo a number. It was just, you know, that's how it rolled.

[9:00] Corinne McFadden Herrera: But something like Sweet Charity was way harder to tackle because it is iconic and because also just in terms of like the book being, you know, what it is and the music being what it is and that staying true to form, it's really hard to go against that grain once that's already established.

[9:23] Corinne McFadden Herrera: So you have to be super mindful. It took a ton of research. We basically knew that, you know, it just couldn't be done without the tip of the hat to the original creator.

[9:34] Corinne McFadden Herrera: It's, it's in four, it's like already informed in the DNA of the musical arrangements and everything. So it's almost impossible to really completely go against that grain successfully.

[9:46] Corinne McFadden Herrera: I don't know. I find it, I think with Bob Fosse's work, Jerome Robbins' work, some people are so iconic it's almost impossible to completely flip it on its head.

[9:56] Jamie DuMont: I think there's been amazing attempts and I've seen one person I think do an incredible job with it, but I think it's a really hard, hard task.

[10:05] Corinne McFadden Herrera: So it gets in your head, right? Because you know that it's a trap, there's an expectation, right? But in your head, people are saying, "Well, you can't do it without the bar. You can't do 'Big Spender' without the bar. You can't do 'Brass Band' without the this or the that," right?

[10:15] Corinne McFadden Herrera: 100%. How do you get out of your head to begin the process?

[10:23] Corinne McFadden Herrera: It was hard. It took us a while to get out of our heads and, you know, we also had a, there was another associate on it because I was also in, I got cast in the show, you know, I had the frug, the fruit girl dance feature, but then I also understudied Ursula, which was a speaking role.

[10:40] Corinne McFadden Herrera: So I had like a really full plate, but then again, I really wanted the challenge of all those things. But it's hard to wear all those hats, and it's hard for Wayne because when we're teching and I'm in and out, it's impossible for all my energy to be directed in one way or another, whether it's looking at the, you know, being with him for the good of the entire piece, but then it's also my process as what I need to do as a performer.

[11:06] Corinne McFadden Herrera: So we would try to split that as best as possible, and we had another associate, Ted Benfalvi, who's amazing and I love, but it took us a while, the three of us, and we just threw ourselves around for a while, and then it started to take shape.

[11:21] Corinne McFadden Herrera: Also, being Bob's work, I knew that it had to be like staged and charted within an inch of its life before we even got anywhere near working with the cast because those kinds of production numbers are epic, and you have to have it together.

[11:36] Corinne McFadden Herrera: You can't be kind of doing that on its feet. So it was it was a process, but a really fun one.

[11:43] Corinne McFadden Herrera: Yeah. So that was 18 years ago. So you might not remember, but at the time, did you think as you're doing this research and you know, sort of exploring the world of Fosse, did you think, oh, you know what? Someday I want to do something else in the Fosse world? I mean, he's always been just like an incredible inspiration to me since since childhood. I mean, I loved I I was probably watching Sweet Charity and Cabaret like way too young.

[12:07] Corinne McFadden Herrera: Same. Um literally say way too young. I mean so many shows in my living room that happened with my dog. I I I never thought that I would necessarily, you know, delve back into it again, especially since we really did Sweet Charity in the style of Bob Fosse. I I didn't, I didn't necessarily know that that would come up again. And it was fascinating when it when it did, because you know, obviously dancing has been talked about for years and years in the dance community, and that would be a fantastic thing to, you know, revive or do a reiteration of. And um, so it was it's kind of, you know, everything's serendipitous. It's so interesting how where things land, but um, no, I never thought that I would say in 2005, 2006.

[12:55] Jamie DuMont: Yeah.

[12:56] Jamie DuMont: Well, before we get to DANCIN’, and we do want to talk at length about DANCIN’, we kind of can't move any further without talking a little bit about Wicked. You've had a long association with the show.

[13:08] Corinne McFadden Herrera: Um, I believe you're still associated with it.

[13:10] Corinne McFadden Herrera: Yeah, yeah. I still, I still am the associate choreographer, so it kind of functions like a resident choreographic supervisor.

[13:18] Jamie DuMont: And what does that mean? Like what do you what are you still doing?

[13:21] Corinne McFadden Herrera: I am still doing the casting. I am still maintaining the US productions that we have, which are a Broadway company and uh national tour. Uh once upon a time when I came back to start supervising everything. We had like four or five companies in the States. Yeah, so I still do that. There's I still do the over I do the licensed productions, most of them as well. I've been to Australia, Japan, Brazil, Mexico City, Korea. I'm about to go back to Australia this summer to do a remount there.

[13:55] Jamie DuMont: When theater came back after the pandemic, you know where I'm going with this.

[14:00] Corinne McFadden Herrera: I do.

[14:01] Corinne McFadden Herrera: So you were prepping for DANCIN’.

[14:01] Jamie DuMont: Yes.

[14:02] Corinne McFadden Herrera: And trying to get Wicked back up on its feet, and not just one Wicked, but all the Wicked's. Because Wicked, didn't the tour of Wicked before Wicked's.

[14:10] Jamie DuMont: Yeah, began before they they were before Broadway. Sorry, I'm not saying this well.

[14:14] Corinne McFadden Herrera: Those two tours of Wicked, they they went into performances before Broadway came back, correct?

[14:18] Jamie DuMont: Correct.

[14:18] Corinne McFadden Herrera: I put them up in August. We put them up uh in August and uh September was Broadway. So that went up, the tour went up first in Dallas.

[14:27] Jamie DuMont: That's an enormous amount of work.

[14:29] Corinne McFadden Herrera: The thing about Wicked is we're approaching 20 years and I know it so well that it's though it's always it's a constant work for me. It's constant, you know, it's constant casting, it's constant emails, it's constant checking in, it's constant, you know, just in terms of the ebb and flow of maintenance of Wicked, you know, I try to touch base with the cast at least once a month and notes multiple times and cleanup rehearsals and all those other things.

[15:00] Corinne McFadden Herrera: But the thing about Wicked is it's part of my soul. So getting, you know, even from the steps that are in it that Wayne and I created together in a studio in 2001 or 2002, like it's all part of my soul. So going back there feels like going back home. My eyes are refined to know exactly what I need to do and what needs to happen. And then we still have, you know, I still have a fabulous associate director there, Lisa Leguio, that I work with very closely and who I admire a lot. And we just get it done, you know.

[15:36] Jamie DuMont: And so that seems familiar.

[15:39] Corinne McFadden Herrera: Something new is a whole other deep sea dive. Even though Wicked is just as much work and a ton of work, it's just it's a it's a different phase, I guess.

[15:42] Jamie DuMont: It's a different phase of your artistry.

[15:50] Corinne McFadden Herrera: Well, it's so fascinating because when we talked to Nicole in our first interview, you know, she talked about the importance of the seeds of information that are the sort of roots the foundation for the steps of Fosse. And what you're just explaining is for Wicked, you and Wayne provide those seeds because you literally came up with water the seeds.

[16:12] Corinne McFadden Herrera: I planted the seeds.

[16:13] Corinne McFadden Herrera: Yeah, we planted all the seeds. Yeah.

[16:15] Corinne McFadden Herrera: It's true. It is true. So it's, it's, I don't know, it's a different sense of responsibility, I suppose. Dancing was Wayne and I just felt like a huge amount of pressure. And Wayne, obviously, knowing Bob and having done multiple shows with Bob and worked with Bob, the pressure to do justice to his vision, his cadence, his very specific.

[16:39] Corinne McFadden Herrera: It's he has so many styles. I can't even say his style because he's like a he's a man that could do every medium from film to TV to theater. And he also was not just a stylist that did small, intricate things that are similar to what people have seen with what Ann did with Chicago. He also did MGM musicals and could fly across a set in one take for like a five, six minute piece of choreography without cutting away.

[17:11] Corinne McFadden Herrera: So there's no specific style, but to pay true attention to all those details was felt like such a huge responsibility that we both took extremely seriously while we tried to laugh through it. This has been such like a uh a passion project, you know, for for me to come into after being being idle, all of us being so idle in our industry and in our artistry, dance is not two-dimensional.

[17:41] Corinne McFadden Herrera: It's not meant to be done on a screen with we are like we're creatures that are communal. You have to be in the room together. It's about mimicking, it's about sweating, it's about exchanging energy, and that's impossible to do. Every principal that we've spoken to has talked about the audition process for DANCIN’ and how it was most people's first audition back and what that was like in the room and the power and the magic and the love and all and and the challenges. What was it like on your side of the table?

[18:12] Corinne McFadden Herrera: It was similar. Uh quite frankly, I think Wayne and I really it was intense. It was more intense. I mean, I knew it was going to be intense because we'd all been so isolated for so long and nobody was doing anything in person. Obviously, there was a lot of prep in order to do that. But the fact that we got to look at and be in a room with close to 600 dancers is just astonishing after just the separation that everybody had.

[18:42] Corinne McFadden Herrera: And and and the feeling that you're out of practice and the feeling that you, you know, maybe I felt for I felt for everybody because I, you know, so many talented people, but it it really is a muscle that you must exercise. And without the opportunity to really do that, it's you know, adrenaline can get the best of you, nerves can get the best of you. But it's I I actually think it was like really incredible.

[19:11] Corinne McFadden Herrera: We were very emotional the last call we did, the last day of invites, and it went on and on for weeks. But the last day when um we did the last group, and my friend and someone that I've been on stage with that is part of the company, Dilese Croman walked in the room after having seen her, haven't seen her for a few years. And uh it was super emotional.

[19:35] Corinne McFadden Herrera: And she walked in with Rochelle Rack, and it just was like it was just to see people that have done this work for a long time, have been artists for a long time, have worked with everybody, have done millions of Broadway shows in the room, all in the same energetic place. I don't know, it was kind of deep. It was like it was emotional.

[19:55] Corinne McFadden Herrera: And the generations of dancers that were showing up, it was really special.

[20:01] Jamie DuMont: Well, you know, I think something that folks who aren't a part of this industry might not necessarily uh think of or know is how small it can be, and how you know, as the longer you work, the more you start to meet everyone, and before long that circle has been completed, right?

[20:16] Corinne McFadden Herrera: It's true.

[20:17] Corinne McFadden Herrera: And so many people have remarked how walking into that audition was like a family reunion. It was a full circle, right?

[20:24] Jamie DuMont: And folks hadn't seen each other for years and all that.

[20:26] Corinne McFadden Herrera: So many people that we've talked to have spoken about you with such love and reverence, and you know, seeing you at the audition or just working with you, right? It has meant so much to them to have you in the room and to be there, you know, throughout this process.

[20:40] Corinne McFadden Herrera: And several have even remarked that they can't take their eyes off you when you dance.

[20:45] Jamie DuMont: Now, of course, we don't get to see you dance in DANCIN’ because all the dancing that you did for DANCIN’ was uh in rehearsal.

[20:51] Corinne McFadden Herrera: Uh I threw myself around with them for many, many a month. So yeah.

[20:55] Corinne McFadden Herrera: But it's very clear, uh, and for anyone who ever has seen you on stage that you are an incredible performer as well. When did you start dancing? What what what got you moving?

[21:03] Corinne McFadden Herrera: Oh gosh, I was uh two and a half, and I was exhausting my I'm an only child, I was exhausting my mother with the amount of energy that I had with the amount of I mean, she actually has like a cassette tape of me. I had a cassette recorder, and I think I was three. I had just turned three. I really rocked it all on that tape. I mean, I gave you Greece, I gave you Greece too.

[21:29] Corinne McFadden Herrera: I did some excerpts from Annie. I said the Pledge of Allegiance to the flag. I gave you all of Thriller, including the Vincent Price monologue in the middle. It started there. She was like, I gotta do something with her. Actually, ironically, my mother was like very naturally gifted and from a very, you know, big Italian family that immigrated from Palermo, and they just did not have the funds to like, but she did every like musical at school and like choreographed things for her nieces.

[22:06] Corinne McFadden Herrera: So I think she just was like, she had talent, but couldn't put it anywhere. So she put me in dance, and I was like obsessed from day one. Like there's pictures of all the little girls in their tutus at the bar, and everybody's like, you know, rolling around on the floor, picking their nose, and I'm like fully in first position, looking over my hand, giving you a palm all.

[22:31] Corinne McFadden Herrera: Like I'm three, like what am I doing? So that, yeah, I guess it was like so. By the time I was seven, I think I told her I started dancing more and more, and I was like, I'm not going to college. This is what I'm doing. And I now have a seven year old, so I know how that is, but um, I meant it, I guess.

[22:48] Jamie DuMont: Yeah, yeah.

[22:48] Jamie DuMont: I'm still picturing you doing cool rider in Greece too.

[22:52] Corinne McFadden Herrera: You wouldn't believe it, Michelle Pfeiffer. It's on.

[22:54] Corinne McFadden Herrera: I have that. I that I will that will never leave my head now because I think that's called perfect casting.

[23:01] Corinne McFadden Herrera: I know. It's I mean, I don't know. I guess it was dance first, but then again, I was already singing and acting and doing all this stuff just from like toddler.

[23:09] Corinne McFadden Herrera: So I guess it makes a lot of sense that I ended up where I ended up, you know.

[23:15] Corinne McFadden Herrera: Well, uh to circle back to dancing, how did you formally get involved in this production?

[23:21] Corinne McFadden Herrera: Funny enough, uh the one thing that did go up during the pandemic was a company of Wicked in Korea.

[23:28] Jamie DuMont: That's right.

[23:29] Corinne McFadden Herrera: Yeah.

[23:29] Corinne McFadden Herrera: Which I actually did all of it like virtually. But I was, yeah, we were I had met with Wayne before that, and I knew that it was kind of about to land. So it was it was prior to that. It was even prior to pandemic. We had gone out to lunch, and you know, he was like, I think this is actually gonna move forward and gonna happen.

[23:48] Corinne McFadden Herrera: And so then it was actually during the pandemic that we started to actually chip away and dig into everything and look at run order and everything from starting with firstly reconstructing some of the choreography so that we could see it on live bodies so that we weren't just looking at, you know, the footage were hard to comb through and decipher, and uh Wayne had specific, you know, ideas about how to um you know how to share it with this generation because it's it's not something that we felt could just be put up exactly as was in 78, even though it was absolutely brilliant.

[24:30] Corinne McFadden Herrera: It's just that Bob always was ahead of his time. So how are we going to tap into that and stay true to the work? We kind of started more abstractly or big picture-wise to try to look at okay, if this was the run order, like what would be the transitional tissue that might string these things together.

[24:50] Corinne McFadden Herrera: And there was so much like little dialogue intros, and you know, it really tapped into his vaudeville background and felt like these grand introductions that were little scene vignettes and such. So we wanted to make sure that we were kind of following through with that idea.

[25:06] Corinne McFadden Herrera: And Kirsten was incredible and pivotal and just all of that, you know, all of that pre-production that we did and breaking it apart and figuring out what it what it was, what it what it could be. Because you had to break it apart to put it back together.

[25:21] Corinne McFadden Herrera: We had to totally break it and go like, what can we live without? And I know people have mixed feelings about it, but the tribute to Bob at the end of adding, you know, a little bit of big deal at the end, I think speaks more to the idea of kind of the exploration of this person's body of work and career as not only a performer but a choreographer and a director and uh an Emmy winner and a Tony winner and an Oscar, you know, you gotta go through the whole gamut to kind of really revive what dancing was for him at that point in his career.

[25:58] Corinne McFadden Herrera: So he wouldn't have done a carbon copy of it anyway. And you know, everyone should be grateful that they have an opportunity to see Beat Me Daddy.

[26:07] Jamie DuMont: I agree.

[26:08] Corinne McFadden Herrera: One of my favorite numbers ever. And and anyone that doesn't, well, then it's their loss because it's truly a masterpiece and it's thrilling to watch, and it absolutely belongs as part of the show.

[26:22] Jamie DuMont: Was there something that you had to lose in the process that you wished you could have kept? Was there a number or a moment or something that you thought this doesn't work, but boy, I wish it did?

[26:32] Corinne McFadden Herrera: Yeah, there was a couple things we went back and forth about, you know, that it was really hard too, because while there was there was no archival footage of the original company.

[26:44] Corinne McFadden Herrera: And it was, I mean, it's almost amazing that it wasn't because of why it didn't happen. And but it also made us a little sad because I think, you know, contrary, we did have footage of big deal.

[26:59] Corinne McFadden Herrera: So there was something very accurate of the original company to kind of be able to reproduce or reconstruct from. That did not exist for dancing. There was a tour, and but things were changed a lot.

[27:13] Corinne McFadden Herrera: And you know, so we had to use footage that um I would say in execution was not the strongest, but the staging was probably most accurate to what happened on Broadway, but very different than seeing the actual original cast do it or even Broadway performers do it.

[27:33] Corinne McFadden Herrera: Um so it yeah, there was a couple things that we toyed with, but it was just hard. I think it was hard even for Wayne to like, you know, even with Christine and Wayne just to like recollect how exactly that functioned, you know, 40 years ago or whatever at that point.

[27:50] Corinne McFadden Herrera: It's like they remember so much, both of them, and everybody's, you know, recollection is a little bit different, but then they have things that are just like you go, you listen to them talk or even Kirsten Child's talk, and you go, oh my gosh, of course.

[28:04] Corinne McFadden Herrera: Like you just it's like worth a million bucks just to hear some of the, you know, stories and um what they remember and what stuck out to them. So everybody's you know, everybody that different things resonate with different performers, and what you remember from your 20s is like, you know, once you're when you're on the other side of that, it's like it's an interesting thing.

[28:26] Corinne McFadden Herrera: But that was really cool to kind of go through here.

[28:30] Jamie DuMont: So the oral history of it sounds like it was really fascinating.

[28:34] Corinne McFadden Herrera: It was, it was really fascinating. And and you know, I think Bob was extremely intelligent.

[28:40] Corinne McFadden Herrera: And so to really dissect everything and go back to, okay, I mean, truly he was a director through and through. He was even a director of I would say he was not a choreographer, but a director of movement.

[28:52] Corinne McFadden Herrera: He was everything had subtext, had story, had meaning, had intention, every single thing. And um, that part I I find like so fascinating.

[29:04] Corinne McFadden Herrera: That was really like the meat of it for me was to kind of like try to understand through whether it's Wayne or Christine or Nicole or Kirsten, everybody has their experiences, but to kind of really research and dig into you know the things that we do have that are tangible, the things on film where you can really watch him and watch what the intention is.

[29:28] Corinne McFadden Herrera: I mean, it's it's priceless, really. I mean, that's that's what this the soul of the show is.

[29:32] Jamie DuMont: So taking into account then both the movement but also the intention and the subtext and the story. Was there a particular part of the show that was hardest to reconstruct given those two sort of factors that have to be combined?

[29:48] Corinne McFadden Herrera: Um I think, you know, I think it was all hard to reconstruct. Just because even the even the production numbers from Danson that are, you know, exactly the phrases and choreography that were Bob's.

[30:05] Corinne McFadden Herrera: We still, you know, kind of gave some of the musical staging a little bit of a more modern facelift in places. But that, and that is hard because you still have to pay a lot of attention to not losing the original cadence.

[30:22] Corinne McFadden Herrera: It was the 70s, everything felt very concert-y presentational in kind of a more ballet format, with the exception of Calypso, which is movement three of percussion, which Wayne and I still agree, just in terms of like a masterclass in staging for theater or concert work.

[30:43] Corinne McFadden Herrera: I mean, that is literally staged like a piece of concert work. And it was staged that way and choreographed and the details in it, the way that it's staged.

[30:55] Corinne McFadden Herrera: I mean, every we essentially kept it exactly the same, except with the constrictions that we just had to find, I'd say critical thinking that we had to deal with because our set was not, you know, like a barren kind of stage like what they had.

[31:10] Corinne McFadden Herrera: Because we have the scaffoldings and uh so, but with the exception of that, I mean, it just and and a lot of the other smaller pared down things, the duets and the potatoes and trios and such.

[31:21] Corinne McFadden Herrera: But um, that one was just masterful. I would say that Big City Mime was a huge challenge that we both just ate up, like we just were like, we're doing this.

[31:32] Corinne McFadden Herrera: I mean, it was such a kind of incredible exercise for both of us to go through that actually turned out to be something that is like very enjoyable to watch and make sense, even though it moves so quickly, and uh to focus it and to focus Bob's work out of context of what the original choreography came from, but within his storyline, I don't know.

[31:58] Corinne McFadden Herrera: I felt like that was so cool.

[32:00] Jamie DuMont: Well, speaking of concert work, I mean I it feels like that's almost the kind of piece that could be lifted out of dance it in the future and done as its own piece in an evening of of other, you know, choreographers or even of of other Bob Fosse work, right?

[32:11] Corinne McFadden Herrera: It's interesting. It's like a day, yeah, it's like we made a narrative out of his work with some dialogue and some music, but very I mean, very little.

[32:21] Corinne McFadden Herrera: It's interesting. It was interesting exercise because you know, theater 101 is when a scene is heightened to a place where it can't go any further, it erupts into song, right?

[32:31] Corinne McFadden Herrera: For the actor. And this was it, the scene gets heightened to a place where it erupts into dance mostly.

[32:38] Corinne McFadden Herrera: Um, with the exception of, you know, a couple little places like uh Spring Chicken, which is you know, obviously a nod from Cabaret there, mine hair.

[32:47] Corinne McFadden Herrera: But um, it was it was like it was an incredible, it was an incredible kind of task and project to take on.

[32:55] Corinne McFadden Herrera: And it took us a bulk of our pre-production time, especially with music to to kind of figure out how much, how far, what is this gonna sound like?

[33:04] Corinne McFadden Herrera: It has to have a nod. We have that people have to know what context they're in. So that was like that was tricky, and it took us some time.

[33:12] Corinne McFadden Herrera: I I'm I'm pleased with how it turned out after a lot of lot of detail and attention to it.

[33:18] Jamie DuMont: So yeah, oh yeah.

[33:19] Jamie DuMont: Well, speaking as frequent audience members, we can attest that you should be very proud of it.

[33:25] Jamie DuMont: And you know, the without a doubt, the audience reaction every night is just so ecstatic because it is, you know, it is this celebration of all the work.

[33:33] Jamie DuMont: And to see it all you know, sort of intersect in one within the container of one piece.

[33:38] Corinne McFadden Herrera: Yeah.

[33:39] Jamie DuMont: Right. I mean, the whole show does that as a show.

[33:41] Corinne McFadden Herrera: Yeah.

[33:41] Jamie DuMont: But even within the show, there's this microcosm.

[33:43] Corinne McFadden Herrera: It's a weird, yeah, it's like a weird thing that exists on its own plane in the middle of act one.

[33:47] Corinne McFadden Herrera: Yeah.

[33:48] Corinne McFadden Herrera: And I'm so glad it like really landed the way it needed to, because it could really have tripped us up with the flow of the show.

[33:55] Corinne McFadden Herrera: And but the evolution from San Diego to New York has also been interesting. Rob and I were fortunate enough to go out to San Diego.

[34:02] Jamie DuMont: And in essence, obviously Big City Mime is the same piece, right?

[34:07] Corinne McFadden Herrera: But whatever little tweaks you've done between San Diego and New York, I can't tell you what they are.

[34:13] Corinne McFadden Herrera: I'm sure you know.

[34:15] Jamie DuMont: She's got a list.

[34:16] Corinne McFadden Herrera: And I saw it in San Diego three times. So, you know, I saw it a number of times.

[34:20] Corinne McFadden Herrera: And I can't tell you what you did, but what you did is the thing that really made it gel.

[34:25] Corinne McFadden Herrera: It was great in San Diego, but it's a different animal in New York and it lands differently.

[34:29] Corinne McFadden Herrera: And I'm sure you know this because you're there a lot.

[34:32] Corinne McFadden Herrera: But even with audiences, it it's it's interesting, just those little tweaks, whatever it is that you do as a creative team to make something whole and complete.

[34:43] Corinne McFadden Herrera: But honestly, the opportunity to go out of town is always just incredible because I I really think I mean Wayne and I have said this several times over with anything that we've done, it's like, you know, directorially now too.

[34:58] Corinne McFadden Herrera: It's one thing when it's choreography and it's another thing when it's a full vision, but that time to see something up and know what you need to do, the first skeleton. I always like to say it's like it's our skeleton, it's like the first round that we do. It's never really your strongest. It's sometimes it can be really good, but it's never your strongest. You need to see everything and really experience everything to know what you need to do, what tweaks you need to make. And sometimes, you know, sometimes that really is obvious and sometimes it's less obvious. And then sometimes you're, you know, you want to like pick things apart and destroy things that aren't that are working, you know.

So it's like it's an interesting gauge. Kind of goes back to what I was saying before. Sometimes when you look at something too much and you haven't had the audience energetic response yet, you can start to like second guess things that you're doing. And we knew it was the right amount of time that we chose because they needed an audience. It was time to get an audience. They were so sick of looking at us. The same, you know. I'm like, okay, we've laughed in the same five places. Like they need, they need the people. They need the people. They need to be able to gauge what their pacing is like. You know, it's particularly hard for a lot of the stuff which is, you know, has so much innuendo and comedy in inside of it that without an audience, you know, you don't really know where to do it.

[36:26] Jamie DuMont: Yeah, I was about to say it's it's it seems like it's like rehearsing a comedy, like a strict comedy, like a play. You can you can overrehearse it, right? You can kill the jokes.

[36:33] Corinne McFadden Herrera: Totally if you do it too much, right? Like I'm like that one's dead. Okay, we need to move on. We're beating that dead horse. So yeah, it was it was uh I mean, I think that I think that the a lot of the tweaks that we did in Act One were worth it. I'm glad we didn't like pick it apart and really make huge changes because I think that we wanted Act Two to feel more like Act One felt. And I think that was the goal. Do you ever have a moment in San Diego or in previews or in tech where you just want to get up on the stage and do it yourself?

[37:07] Corinne McFadden Herrera: Just all the time. All the time. And it's it was weird for me too, because I was up and dancing with them and teaching, you know, certain bits of choreography. I was up and staging and all that stuff for so long. When you get into tech, it becomes like a different, you're in a different realm. It's a different phase. And um, then they're used to like, you know, my voice on the mic, or and then like, you know, where I should have been stepping back in places in the music box, that was a little bit tricky. So sometimes I would just go get up on stage with them and be too close to it and not really be able to see what I needed to see. But that's the beauty of Wayne and I. It's like we've been working together for so long, but we know how to do that that dance, if you will.

And it's definitely a dance, and he's been so supportive in letting me run the room when needed and facilitate the changes and facilitate what staging needs to happen. And he's able to sit back and look at it, and it, you know, it works like that. And then he he, you know, gets up and throws himself around too. We're both kind of cut from the same cloth, I think, where we'll both go like it's this, and then you're like, ow, I hurt myself.

[38:20] Jamie DuMont: This might be uh an unfair question. Okay, but do you have a favorite song moment in the show?

[38:27] Corinne McFadden Herrera: That's a hard one. Actually, just in terms of a scene with a vignette and a song and the kind of context, I I'm so unbelievably, and this has nothing to do with my husband singing it, but like the way that Bojangles turned out as a piece as a vignette, everything from the Langston Hughes poem at the top. I mean, everything about what we do and the leg and the legacy that it also represents. That's I I mean everything about inspiration, legacy, the fact that he was a tapper. I mean, I think that the piece really speaks, like I think it has so much heart. It's really beautiful. Uh it's one of my favorite moments in the show because of everybody's execution up there and because of just the overall, you know, just the creative direction of it. I think it's beautiful.

[39:21] Jamie DuMont: It's interesting about Bojangles. I I I ask everyone who I send to see the show what their favorite song was, you know, and who their favorite performer was, because everybody has a different answer. Right. That's what's so fun about it. That's what's so cool. It's like everybody ha vibrates with somebody different.

[39:34] Corinne McFadden Herrera: And I think that's so cool. I love how frequently Bojangles is referenced when I asked that question, especially because it's the second number in the show, which means they sat through the rest of the entire show, which is just memorable showstopper after showstopper, and they still came back to it, right? For the ones who answer Bojangles, which is a testament to what you're describing, the whole creative direction of it.

[39:54] Corinne McFadden Herrera: Yeah, I mean, yeah, I love the I mean, just in terms of anything that was kind of adjusted or paid forward, that one I'd say is my favorite. If you're asking me about my favorite piece of like what of choreography or which also all has acting, as I said, calypso yeah, is a huge like uh probably maybe like I think one of the coolest numbers in the show, um, or pieces of choreography. I also uh I also love the alley dance. I love uh romantic fantasy. And I actually think uh my my the last one that I really I mean sing sing is always a crowd pleaser. You can never not love every section of that. And then I think Joint Endeavors turned out so cool, which was like we really like overly cerebralized that one for a while.

And uh then I just started going, okay, like I'm I'm gonna pull some stuff together and let's see how it goes. And it turned out really, I think it turned out beautiful, especially with Finn's, you know, design and everything. I said this to Carly and I've said it to Jamie before. I we often get to join Endeavors, you know, that that moment in the show, and I go, Oh yes, I had forgotten about how much I love this moment. It really is gorgeous. It's like sexy gorgeous like everything all the things. It's all the things, and it's very cool. I think just in terms of like creative direction, is that like we took the song that we took and then almost did variations of it. So it was like we, you know, Jim Abbott and I, we were all talking about like how can we, and I was like, what about like do you remember Requiem for a Dream?

Like, you know how there's like a million, you know, he he really rewrote every section to reflect what was kind of happening dramatically in terms of the overall, it's the same kind of piece of music. You just hear it a million different ways. And that was I think what was really the most inspirational and got us going with that was to think, okay, we're gonna do these three movements, these three potatoos, and you're not gonna arrive at what song it is until the end when Carly sings it. So I think that was kind of cool.

[42:10] Corinne McFadden Herrera: And I will go on the record to circle back to Bojangles that I think the way Manny sings it is extraordinary. I want a cast album solely to listen to that on repeat. It's a great arrangement. And and talk about acting. Yeah. Talk about being able to not only just sing that song with such power, but with such soul and depth. It's it's it's equal to the dance, in my opinion. It's interesting that piece. It's like, you know, any of the three pivotal parts of that, Manny, Jacob, Yamon, any one of them, anybody missing from the mix changes the entire. And I don't mean that in a bad way because the understudies do it beautifully as well, but it's it's they really that was really a process that built, you know, and the things that they found with one another, especially because Yamon's reference kind of exists on its own plane.

The plane of, you know, inspiration, the plane of legacy. And Manny and Jacob exists between these two worlds of like what's happening right now and what's narrative and recollective for him, which also turns into that for Jacob. That's what's so interesting about the scene, I think. You know, is that there's these three separate things that are all working in conjunction with one another to tell the same story.

[43:36] Jamie DuMont: Well, to take us home, what does Bob Fosse mean to you?

[43:40] Corinne McFadden Herrera: What he means to me has been a huge source of inspiration. That we as artists continue to like push our boundaries. He pushed every boundary and the ceiling up out of the way. And I think that has been like the the most like kind of it's so funny because he was not a sentimental man. He was a very like, it was not, he was not sentimental. He was kind of dry and had this like quiet, sarcastic charm about him. But everything about doing, you know, kind of doing the deep sea dive into his work has made me feel just a complete like it's been a complete vomit of like love and passion for what I've chosen to do and what and you know what our what our art is and what speaks to us. So I would say, you know, uh what he means to me is like a huge source of inspiration and and we're always striving for more. And that's what I would like to do, continue to do in my art and in my life.

[44:47] Jamie DuMont: I think that's my favorite answer to that question. So far.

[44:49] Corinne McFadden Herrera: Nailed it. I don't know. I went down, I went down deep, but it's been a long process for me.

[44:55] Jamie DuMont: So what I love about it is it not to just not to discredit any other answer, but it's very personal and proud. It and and profound and personal to hear you talk about that inspiration. And I don't know, thank you. That was great.

[45:10] Corinne McFadden Herrera: Thank you guys. This is really fun. This was I feel like I'm having just coffee, but it's really cold coffee. I don't even don't even look at your watch. I don't want you to know how long we kept you. We've I think we've talked to you longer than we've talked to anybody.

[45:20] Corinne McFadden Herrera: Well, that's okay. Thank you.

[45:22] Jamie DuMont: Thank you guys.

[45:23] Corinne McFadden Herrera: Thank you.

[45:37] Jamie DuMont: Bob Fosse's dancing is now on Broadway at the Music Box Theater. For tickets and more information, visit DancinBWay.com.

[45:44] Jamie DuMont: Dancing Man, a Fabulous Invalid Podcast, is a production of OM Etc. and the Fabulous Invalid LLC, and a proud member of the Broadway Podcast Network. Special thanks to Civilian for hosting us and to our audio engineer, Kyle Moore. If you liked this episode, we've got over a hundred episodes of the Fabulous Invalid Podcast that you can check out, including a two-parter on the life, work, and legacy of Bob Fosse and Gwen Verdon. You can find us online at thefabulousinvalid.com and on social media at Fabulous Invalid, and on iTunes, Spotify, and wherever you get your podcasts.