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[0:10] Rob Russo: Welcome to the final episode of DANCIN’ Man, a Fabulous Invalid Podcast, where we've featured exclusive behind-the-scenes interviews with the cast and creative team of Bob Fosse's DANCIN’ on Broadway.

[0:19] Jamie DuMont: I'm Jamie DuMont.

[0:20] Rob Russo: I'm Rob Russo.

[0:22] Jamie DuMont: And we're your hosts.

[0:23] Rob Russo: While DANCIN’ sadly closed on Broadway on May 14th, we remained so proud to have been co-producers of the show.

[0:29] Jamie DuMont: And we still had a few cast members to talk with, so we headed back to the Roseville Cocktail Room at Civilian one last time for a final conversation.

[0:37] Rob Russo: Yes, and joining us for this final episode is cast member Dylis Croman.

[0:41] Jamie DuMont: And I think we should say we've been waiting to talk with Dylis for a long, long time.

[0:45] Rob Russo: And that's why she's last.

[0:46] Jamie DuMont: Yes, yes.

[0:47] Rob Russo: Last and certainly not least.

[0:49] Jamie DuMont: No, not at all.

[0:50] Rob Russo: No, we're very excited.

[0:51] Jamie DuMont: Of course. And as we'll get into, you know, she was very close with legendary Fosse dancer Ann Reinking and just has such an amazing connection with the Fosse style from performing in the Broadway revue FOSSE on tour and then on Broadway, to starring as Roxy Hart in Chicago.

[1:07] Rob Russo: DANCIN’ marked her seventh Broadway show with other credits including A Chorus Line, Sweet Charity, another Fosse show, Oklahoma, Thou Shalt Not, and not to mention national tours of Thoroughly Modern Millie and Movin' Out.

[1:20] Jamie DuMont: And of course, she was a standout in DANCIN’, earning a Chita Rivera Award nomination.

[1:24] Rob Russo: A well-deserved nomination.

[1:27] Jamie DuMont: Oh yes. We could talk to her. We could do a whole show just on Ann Reinking with her.

[1:31] Rob Russo: Oh, we've already done a show on Ann Reinking.

[1:32] Jamie DuMont: We certainly have. You should go check out. We did a very good like 90-minute episode about Ann Reinking after she passed away.

[1:39] Rob Russo: And one final thing before we get to our conversation with Dylis. We live in New York, things are imperfect.

[1:44] Jamie DuMont: There is some construction happening right next door to us, so a little of that is gonna bleed over.

[1:48] Rob Russo: Yeah, it's a little scene setting.

[1:51] Jamie DuMont: Little scene setting.

[1:52] Rob Russo: Adds a little character to the podcast.

[1:54] Jamie DuMont: Yes. Speaking of, shall we get to our conversation with Dylis?

[1:57] Rob Russo: Let's do it.

[2:08] Jamie DuMont: Welcome to the show, Dylis.

[2:09] Dylis Croman: Thank you so much for joining us.

[2:11] Jamie DuMont: We are talking to you as our last interview.

[2:14] Dylis Croman: And we have to admit that we have been saving you for last because we're very excited to talk to you for many reasons, but also because of your unique connection to Fosse and the Fosse style.

[2:23] Jamie DuMont: But before we get there, as this is airing after DANCIN’ has closed, and you're heading into your final weekend of performances. How are you feeling?

[2:33] Dylis Croman: Everything. I'm feeling all the emotions. I'm feeling it's really taken like its course ever since we found out about the closing because basically it was heart-wrenching when we found out. It was heartbreaking, shocking, heartbreaking because we have worked so hard on this show, and we're so close as a family, as a cast. But in this very moment, I'm feeling so grateful. I'm feeling so grateful that we even had a chance to bring this to Broadway and bring it to the dance community and the younger generation of dancers. That honestly, for me, is everything, you know, to be able to change people's lives through dance, even if they're not a dancer. But there's been so many people coming to the stage door after the show, and you know, I haven't been in dance class forever, and it's I want to go back, and it just inspired me so much, and they've been coming back six and seven times, you know.

So we're really just giving dancers a new burst of life and inspiration to want to do it, to want to move their body again and explore. And so I'm grateful right now at this very moment. I'm still saddened, you know, because this show is a love. It's a love affair for all of us in our hearts. Just to dance like this again. For me personally, I'm a little bit more mature these days. I've lived some life, I've done some shows. I'm feeling like this could be the last time I do something like this, a show like this. I'm not to say I won't be working in shows from now on. I feel like I have a very long career ahead of me still. But a dance show like this, they're very few and far between. And so yeah, I'm longing, I'm already longing, missing it, you know.

And the rest of these shows for this weekend are gonna be joyful, celebratory. I'm ready to give it everything I got. I'm being swung out on Saturday matinee, though, because I want to watch the show.

[4:42] Rob Russo: Oh, and that's what we've been doing. Beverly, our stage manager's been swinging us out so we can see what we've created and this magic that we've made, you know.

[4:50] Dylis Croman: So special. It's so special. So I was torn because I, like I said, I want to continue dancing like this, and it's hard to let go of it. But then when I thought about it, I was like, I want to see my fellow dancers, my peers, my friends, my family shine their lights from a different perspective. And so Saturday afternoon, I'm gonna watch it. I can't wait.

[5:10] Jamie DuMont: Oh, that'll be nice.

[5:11] Dylis Croman: Yeah, yeah. Just like the Fosse style and the Fosse movement, it's very layered. It's very layered how we're feeling in the theater right now. But Stephen Sondheim put it best. You're sorry, grateful. You know, it's exactly both. It can be both things at the same time. It's that juxtaposition of emotion, and so we're backstage. Sometimes we're like just laughing hysterically, you know, laughing because we're just trying to get through it, you know, get through the emotion of it. And then we'll break into tears, you know, the next minute. But the great thing is, as I said before, we have this. This is a gift we were given, and we lived it through, and we hope to just, you know, maybe there's a continuation of some sort down the line.

Who knows? But right now, I always like to live in the moment. I mean, I know that sounds so cliché, but in this business, you have so many ups and downs. It's just how it goes. And we all know that, and we all have experienced it multiple times. And so for now, for this particular moment, we just have to say to ourselves, we did it, we're proud of ourselves, go team, go fam, and we will, you know, we just stay in the moment of where we're at and celebrate that. And that's what I'm gonna do this weekend.

[6:24] Rob Russo: As you mentioned, you've this isn't your first show. You've done a few shows, and you know, I think it's fair to say you're a senior company member in that regard.

[6:32] Dylis Croman: Absolutely.

[6:33] Rob Russo: Do you find a certain responsibility to the younger members of the cast or to anyone else in the cast to sort of model your behavior in these final performances or to offer any kind of advice or encouragement? Has that been happening?

[6:44] Dylis Croman: You know, it's interesting because yes, I am definitely, I've definitely lived some life and done some shows and have experience under my belt. So I do feel a responsibility. I have felt that from the beginning. And at first, it was uncomfortable for me because I'm really, for me, I'm a dancer. I'm a dancer in my head, in my heart, I'm a dancer. I'm just like everybody else in the room. I don't put myself in a different place. I never have, you know. And so when I look around the room and people are, you know, I remember Ida once, Ida Saki came up to me. By the way, we went to the same performing arts high school in Dallas. So we're sisters from, I mean, we didn't go to school together, obviously, but we share that commonality.

But anyway, she came up to me like the second week of rehearsal, and we're standing at the ballet bar. I'm about to start our warm-up, and she runs up to me. She goes, "Oh my god, I've been acting normal in front of you this whole time." And I'm like, "What? What are you talking about?" She's, you know, because she had gone home and watched, I mean, I think she had seen the trumpet solo, but she put two and two together that it was me that did the solo. And you know, but it just cracked me up because I honestly don't know what to do with that information sometimes. I'm just like, you know, I just kind of laugh it off and say, "Well, it's me. Let's dance. Let's get in the room and work our butts off."

Yeah, but I do feel a certain responsibility, but at the same time, this cast, they're so unique in their own way. You know, everybody has their own magic to shine. And I feel, I do feel, you know, that we all learn from one another. I mean, they're learning from me, I'm learning from them. And I've said that before, but I really truly feel that every day in rehearsal, every night. There's never a moment where you can't be learning from one another. You know, that's what it's about. That's what, you know, listening, opening your ears to one another. And we've all been inspired by people in life. I'm grateful to be for people that I've inspired through the years. I'm grateful to be that person because dance can change your life. It can change your life, it can lift you up when you're at the lowest of lows. I love everybody in the cast so much. They're, they really grab my heart.

[9:09] Jamie DuMont: What everyone can't see is the smile on your face as you talk about the cast.

[9:13] Dylis Croman: Yeah, I do. I love them. I mean, I truly, truly, we have created such a family with this cast. And what's so brilliant about it is that we all do come from different generations. And so that's the magic of it. We come together and we're pulling from, you know, I just feel like Wayne and Corinne really nailed it with the casting for the show. I mean, they did. It's something we talk about on this podcast a lot. And I guess this is our final time to say it, but it bears repeating, which is it really is a special, unique group of people. And I think that's one of the reasons that the show is such a joy to watch, is that everyone, they bring something unique to their dance, and then collectively, as a group, you all bring something unique when you dance together.

[9:58] Rob Russo: Absolutely.

[9:59] Dylis Croman: And it's, as frequent audience members, Rob and I can attest that it is a joy and a privilege to watch.

[10:07] Dylis Croman: Oh, thank you.

[10:08] Rob Russo: Thank you.

[10:09] Dylis Croman: It's a privilege to perform.

[10:10] Rob Russo: It is.

[10:11] Dylis Croman: I mean, it's so, every night's different.

[10:13] Rob Russo: Yeah, you know, and that's what I love too about this group is that we're, it's in the moment. Nothing has ever canned. Because you know, you do shows sometimes, and you know, certain people might, you know, phone it in or whatever. You know, you do it eight times a week. It's hard to always keep it fresh. But I don't know if it's the movement that we're doing, the show, the way it's crafted, the people, the actual, you know, the energies that have been brought together for this particular show. But every single night is different.

[10:44] Dylis Croman: And we laugh hysterically backstage about the silliest thing, and we bring it on stage. We bring that energy on stage, you know, to professionally, we bring it on stage.

[10:54] Rob Russo: Well, you know, we do, we bring that energy on stage, and the audience feels it, it's palpable.

[10:59] Dylis Croman: And you know, yeah, people have said that at the stage door, like, "You guys look like you're having so much fun," and we're like, "We are, that's because we are."

[11:08] Rob Russo: And the thing that's so unique about dance and the way that it's devised is that you're often playing characters, but you're also playing yourselves, right? You get to bring more of yourself to this, I would imagine, than you ever have in any other show you've been in, right?

[11:24] Dylis Croman: Absolutely, yeah.

[11:25] Rob Russo: And that really is a testament to the Bob Fosse movement and the style because it comes from such an intentional place. It's storytelling through movement. And for a dancer, that's just a dream to be able to do. It's not just movement. As a matter of fact, I mean, it comes from such a guttural place.

[11:42] Dylis Croman: The style, you know, there's so many different things I've heard through the years from, you know, legends like Gwen Verdon and Ann Reinking, Ben Vereen. Like, I've been so lucky to work with these people closely. And you know, it's one of those things that I, it's something, a gift that I've been given that I can't, I just still can't believe that I fell into this so naturally, and it just kind of came into my life so effortlessly. And I was like, okay, well, it was so clear when I first started working with Ann Reinking. I was 14, and she, you know, was teaching a Fosse class at her at Broadway Theater Project in Florida. She was the artistic director of the program. And I was so young, and I just, when the minute I saw the Fosse style on her demonstrating, I just, it was like love at first sight. First of all, it was love at first sight to watch her do the movement.

[12:40] Rob Russo: I mean, how lucky were you?

[12:41] Dylis Croman: So yummy to watch. But then I just, the movement itself, the quality of movement, I just, it immediately fit my body. And I just say, okay, this is where has this been all my life? I want to do this because at 14.

[12:56] Rob Russo: At 14, yeah, yeah, right.

[12:57] Dylis Croman: All my life. But to have the presence of mind at that young age to know that you're seeing something that you feel is something that's in you already, or something that fits you.

[13:09] Rob Russo: Absolutely.

[13:09] Dylis Croman: To know that is, I think, astounding.

[13:12] Rob Russo: Well, yeah, it could, I guess it is.

[13:15] Dylis Croman: I mean, I grew up in Dallas, Texas, and I danced since I I've been dancing since I was three, literally. Um, first class was at three years old, and I just never stopped. I immediately, my mom and my dad saw the passion I had for it at that young, at really at three years old. I mean, my first teacher, Dana Davis Bailey, Dana Davis Dance Academy, she um, she I was taking my ballet classes, and my I started off with ballet and tap. That's what my mom and dad put me in at first. And the, you know, Dana was like, your child is special, just so you know. I've, you know, I she has something. And I just loved it. So I continued in that. But the great thing that I always, I always, you know, hats off to my mom, my mama, and my dad.

Um, both of them are just they've been always been so supportive of me. And I have a great family that way. So um, but my mom just instinctually knew to put me into different styles of dance. So as I grew up and I started, you know, showing that I really did want to do this, she put me in like flamingo and you know, like all these different styles. Modern, you know, I'd never been introduced to modern yet, so she put me in a random modern class. I was like, oh, what's this? You know, like just like all these styles, and it really shaped, I think, my openness to receiving different styles and different types of movement. And I loved all of it. I mean, I just I literally just love to dance, period.

Doesn't matter what it is. Hip hop, I'm actually pretty good at hip-hop. People don't know this about me, but I'm pretty good at it. They do now, yeah. Um, but no, but it uh the Fosse style when I saw it, it was like that, I want to do that. This fits me. And I think to go back to what you were talking about before, Rob, I think the reason why I love it so much is because I can implement all the styles I've studied through my life, and I can be an actor through it. It's just the dancing, this movement to me is freedom. It's like complete freedom because you can, you know, you can be sensual, you can be quirky and funny and goofy. There's just so many different levels to his and layers to his movement, and it comes from, you know, Gwen Verdon used to say, this is one of my favorite things she said one time about we were doing cell block tango, and she was saying, like, there's a sewing machine needle in your heart, and going, it's just like running.

And you might be sitting there, like in one of these poses, draped over a chair, and you know, as Annie would say, burning a hole through the back of the house with your eyes, and you're doing nothing, literally nothing, but everything is going on at the same time because that heart, that needle's, and it's like that image is like, oh, now I know how to drape myself over this chair properly, you know, and don't feel, you know, because sometimes when you're still as a dancer, you wanna you wanna do more, you want to do something, but it comes from in. It comes from the internal part. And when you're sitting with nothingness, you actually have everythingness going on. That's the epitome of the Fosse style, that juxtaposition of nothing, and that fire or that steam.

It's like the pot on the lid on the pot that's about to burst. You know, that's what should be going on in your gut, in your soul and in your gut. And that's what makes it extra special, I think. Both to do and to watch, I have to say, right? Because everyone knows. I mean, I were, you know, I guess those who are who are more um, you know, have seen more are are able to point out, you know, like what is and what isn't, right? Like when someone actually has that subtext and that intention going on, it changes the whole quality of it, right? And if you're in tune to that as an audience member, it's thrilling.

[17:04] Rob Russo: Yeah.

[17:14] Dylis Croman: And it's almost like you don't know what you're watching, but you're like, wait, something's going on over there.

[17:19] Rob Russo: Yeah, yeah.

[17:20] Dylis Croman: And uh that and Annie, yeah, Ann Reinking. Annie um really, really did uh teach that's that part of the style. And Wayne, too. It's been so interesting to have a female perspective and a male perspective of this movement, this style, this show, you know, dancing. I mean, I wasn't in the original DANCIN', obviously, but I was in Fosse, which was in 1999. One of those years. Annie used to always talk about just of all being yourself. And Wayne also talks about that. You know, being yourself through the movement. And that's why I say it's this it's free. It's like free to be me.

[18:14] Rob Russo: It's empowering.

[18:15] Dylis Croman: It's empowering, yes. Absolutely. It really is empowering. Um, you feel seen, you feel heard, and you can, you know, within a framework, you can be yourself through it. And but yeah, Wayne, learning it from him, he you know, he had he had some similar stories that I've heard before, and also new stories that you know were new to me and and just informed the movement in a different way. I mean, you know, Ann Reinking's like this tall, lengthy, leggy, um, stunning woman. And Wayne is this powerhouse, like just incredible performer. Like he he's just a consummate performer, Wayne Salento. You know, you see videos of him in his day, and I mean he's just a firecracker, and he's he's your eye goes straight to him. And when he would get up in this in the studio to demonstrate things, you all of a sudden it's just like it all comes back to him, and he's like in he's he's like in the room with Bob Fosse again. You see it.

[19:12] Rob Russo: Yeah, it's really cool to watch.

[19:14] Dylis Croman: You just you know, wants a dancer, always a dancer, and when you have that special thing, that's what gets passed down, you know. You know, it's not just the steps, it's what that special little nugget within each of our story that we have to pass down. And so my passing down is gonna look different than Wayne's passing down. It's gonna look different than Annie's passing down because I'm Dylis and I'll pass it down, you know, within the framework. I hope to pass it down with a little part of me to express it and to share it. Something Rob clocked when we spoke to Wayne was that Wayne spoke about Bob in the present tense, which I thought was so fascinating.

[19:56] Rob Russo: Yeah.

[19:56] Dylis Croman: You know, which I think speaks to a little bit but about what you were saying about passing it down, right? Like it's alive.

[20:03] Rob Russo: Yeah, it's alive.

[20:03] Dylis Croman: It's a living, it's it's it's life, it's living, it's it's alive. And it's and that doesn't change.

[20:09] Rob Russo: No, it is, it's a live, it's a live organism or you know, amoeba.

[20:13] Dylis Croman: Yeah, it's moving and and it's got life. You're right, and that's I love I love thinking of it that way. You know, I keep going back to Annie because I as I said, I met her when I was 14 and I became her assistant in many projects, and her, you know, just was by her side quite a bit. And when she passed away in 2020, obviously that was a horrible loss for the whole, you know, community of dance and Broadway for the world, honestly. She was such a light, and she changed thousands among thousands of dancers' lives, truly. Uh she was a mentor and a theater mama to so many. And um, but I relate to what you just said about you know, Wayne speaking of Bob in the present tense, because I really do feel like she's still here.

[21:01] Rob Russo: Well, she is.

[21:02] Dylis Croman: She is. She's in, she's in your soul. She's in your head. She's in your, she's in, she's in everything.

[21:09] Rob Russo: Absolutely.

[21:10] Dylis Croman: You do probably beyond just dance because of the close working relationship that you had, the close friendship that you clearly had. You know, that's a those are those are life-defining things.

[21:21] Rob Russo: Exactly.

[21:22] Dylis Croman: Particularly when you meet somebody at 14 and they have such a profound impact on what you end up doing with the rest of your life.

[21:27] Rob Russo: Absolutely.

[21:28] Dylis Croman: And let's not overlook the fact that, you know, when you did uh get cast in Fosse and you were in Fosse and the moment, the track that you played, right? You got to do the trumpet solo, right?

[21:37] Rob Russo: Which you mentioned earlier, and is a part of your legacy now, right?

[21:40] Dylis Croman: That you got to do this iconic dance and it was captured on film.

[21:45] Rob Russo: Yes.

[21:46] Dylis Croman: Right. So now no one can really ever take it away from you because that's our film.

[21:50] Rob Russo: It's mine.

[21:52] Dylis Croman: But it is, it stands as a model, right? As a piece of theater history, right? Um and it was originally done by Ann Reinking. So when you stepped into that dance, that particular solo, did did Ann teach it to you?

[22:06] Dylis Croman: She did.

[22:07] Rob Russo: And what was that like?

[22:09] Dylis Croman: I mean, what what what stories did she share of doing it? Well, when she started teaching it to me, I learned because I was in the first national before I was transferred to Broadway. So she we were in a studio, I think it was in Chicago, Illinois, and um, you know, the day I was on the schedule, trumpet solo. Oh my gosh. I'm like, oh God, here we go. Um, and she just like started teaching the the framework of it, you know, and and it became very, it was very simple. Like it was almost like we're it was almost like the way, you know, Twyla Tharp demonstrates her choreography. It's almost like you do this and this and this, okay, go. You know, it's like five, six, seven, eight, go, and you're like, um, I'm sorry, what was that again?

But um, so Annie kind of taught the trumpet solo to me a little bit like that, you know, it was just kind of off the cross. Matter of fact, yeah. And I was like, okay, then she'll, you know, we'll we'll go back and do that again, but let's just try that, see what see what comes out. And it really was, and I believe that this is how um Bob Fosse also did it. Um, you know, created it because I've talked to um another trumpeter, Lynn, just recently who came to the show, she was in the original, and she kind of told me a little bit of her story of learning the trumpet solo from Bob Fosse. So, but it it was very similar, and interestingly, very similar to how I learned it from Annie, because yeah, it was off the cuff, and then and then she started layering in the the meat of it. Um, she let you be free to just explore.

[23:40] Dylis Croman: The one thing that stuck with me that I always when I do pass down the trumpet solo, I always like to add this because it really makes such a difference in how you do it. So you're dancing with the trumpet, right? And then that is a marriage between the two. So your body is like an instrument, and you're the two of you are are melded together, and there's not there's no space. This, you know, it's all one. And she talks about how to cut there's this cocking of the ear, like that that any time, you know, the shoulder roll or listening, listening to the trumpet, what's the trumpet gonna do next? What is he gonna play with next? Okay, that means I'm gonna go like this. I'm gonna go over here and do this shoulder roll or this undulation, and it it's very much informed by the music.

And so, but it was the cock of the ear that she kept passing down to me. She, and which I think is what Mr. Fosse wanted. So it it read as if it was an improvisational thing. It wasn't planned, it wasn't, you know. Um, and it really makes the solo so fun to do when you add that little, that little element to it because it gives it almost like the hair on the back of your neck stands up like just that that spontaneity of where it's gonna go next. And I think it's more fun for the audience to experience because you're like, oh, what's happening? What is this conversation that's happening between this musician and dancer? And so that was something I really took from her. And then when it came down to jumping on that bandstand, I looked at her.

It's like, I'm not, you know, I'm not like daring like you are. Because she Annie, when I look back at stuff, you know, videos of her, she danced with abandonment. Not to say I don't. I feel like I the and the older I get, ironically, I'm dancing more with more abandonment than I ever have, I feel. We have different styles, even though we have similarities. And but she just she was like, just go jump on it. And I was like, well, do I need to get like a knee pad or something? She goes, well, yeah, go put on an if that's what makes you feel more comfortable. Feel free to put on an knee pad, but just go, just go for it. And I was like, okay, I'm gonna run over here to this downstage left corner and just barrel towards the platform, see what happens.

And sure, and I did put my knee pad on because I didn't want to hurt myself, but sure enough, that's all I needed to do is just trust and run and jump and slide. And I felt absolutely fearless after that. It was amazing.

[26:00] Rob Russo: Yeah, it's like taking the training wheels off of a child learning how to ride a bike, you know, you just gotta do it.

[26:06] Dylis Croman: Just do it, just let her roll.

[26:07] Rob Russo: Yeah.

[26:08] Dylis Croman: It's funny because when I watch that, when I watch that, that's not the thing. I mean, yes, the landing on the bandstand is incredible. But to me, the thing that looks scary is the falling off down onto one knee in that crazy um.

[26:22] Rob Russo: The audience always gathered.

[26:23] Dylis Croman: Yeah. Like that's where I think, how does how did how did you not get a shattered knee every time?

[26:28] Dylis Croman: How does Colton not get a shattered knee? How did Ann Reinking not get a—how did everybody not shatter their knees doing that? It's a good thing. Well, I do have some calluses on my knees that are lifelong calluses for sure. Um, hard one. Yeah. I don't have the prettiest of knees anymore, but that's okay. It's worth it. Have you named Bob? Mr. Fosse. Um, I don't know. That part didn't—never really—it didn't, that part didn't bother me so much or didn't feel scary. I think you just have to, you know, land on the side of your knee. It looks like you're landing right on your knee, but it's deceptive.

[26:59] Dylis Croman: The thing that blows my mind as many times as I've seen it, your version, Colton's version. Unfortunately, we don't have Ann Reinking's version on film, but is those jumps that you do across the stage. Yeah. What are they called? Is there a name for it? Hitch kicks. No, hitch kick layouts is always what I've called it. But there is, um, a little like tuck that happens, um, before the layout, which is called—Annie used to call it the cannonball. So you do like a cannonball and then a hitch kick layout. Everybody has their own version of that. I mean, it's still about the same, you know, same idea of moving across the stage and, um, you know, breaking your back in half in Colton. Colton breaks his back. I mean, he is unbelievable to watch in that—in those hitch kicks. I mean, truly, I—it's a sight to see. His body just does things that my body never did. But that's okay.

[27:50] Dylis Croman: No, he's incredible. And that is the most iconic part of it. It's just, uh, it's, uh, it's the part of the solo. Everything is so in, you know, internal, and it's the part of the solo that just breaks loose, which is always so much fun to do at night. And it's—to your point about listening to the music, it feels like it's the music dancing. Right? Like the movement is so in sync with how the music sounds. It's hard to describe. But I think you're getting what I'm saying, right? Like absolutely, like if you could—if the music could dance, that's what it would be doing in that moment. You know, it's like Bob Fosse got it so right.

[28:26] Dylis Croman: So right he did. He got it so right, and it's exactly what the music is saying you're doing with your body. And that's what's—yeah, it is such a—it's a journey you take it through the whole—and then at that point, that mel—you talked about that melod—yeah, yeah, and those head rolls so much. It's so much fun. Whenever I did it, Annie would also talk about the hairography. Yes, because I was just about to bring that up. Your hair has to land on the one or it's not right. Right? Or the eight or the seven or whatever the count is. But yeah, it's real. It's real. You have to plan it in your mind 100%.

[29:01] Dylis Croman: Yeah, yeah, you have to figure out. Otherwise, can it throw you? Yeah, it can actually. The other day, it kind of threw me in Ida and I's duet for, um, joint endeavors. Um, we—a lot of hair. It's a lot of hair. We both have our hair down, and at one point I like turned to her for the very last intimate moment where we're like face to face and we almost touch lips. And then as I turned to her, usually I figure out how to get my hair behind me so I'm face to face with her. But all of a sudden, somet—I did some kind of movement differently, and I came to her with just hair—just hair over—like Cousin It. Yeah, Cousin It was coming towards her for a kiss. I was like—and it just—I just started giggling because it was just like, well, there's that. Let's move on. The hairography didn't work out in that moment.

[29:43] Jamie DuMont: That's amazing. So when you were working with Ann doing, uh, Fosse, did she ever talk about dancing? Or I guess throughout your entire, you know, association together, did she ever talk about dancing? Was it ever in your mind that, like, oh, maybe someday I'll get to do that?

[29:57] Dylis Croman: You know what's funny? She didn't. She didn't talk a lot about—I mean, other than when she taught me the trumpet solo and she passed that down, but that was very, you know, separate.

[30:07] Dylis Croman: Unspecific, yeah. But, um, she didn't. I never really asked her much about it either. You know, when she talked about Mr. Fosse, she—and which I—this is also really what I love. She used to call him—I mean, she would call him Bob because obviously they had a very close relationship, but she also would call him Mr. Fosse. It always struck me when she would talk about him that way because, um, there was a, uh, respect and, uh, a formality almost.

[30:32] Dylis Croman: Yeah, right. Like a mentor to, you know, to dancer. But she would talk about just how—just in general, how he was in the room with everyone. And, you know, he was definitely a hard work ta, you know, like workmaster. He had like wanted it to be right. He wanted the dancers to work like 150%. But I mean, that's—that's how you get greatness, you know. You—you do it over and over and over and over again until she used to say, you know, until the opening night would come around and you wouldn't have to think about it anymore. It just was so in your body.

[31:08] Dylis Croman: So you built the stamina up and you can just enjoy the ride without feeling like, oh, I don't know what I'm—you know, quite know what that part is yet. It would be drilled. And that's the part that maybe might have given Mr. Fosse a, um, quote unquote, you know, I don't even know the word, like reputation, I guess. But that was the old school way. And Wayne brings that into the room, and he brings it in with a lot of love, uh, definitely. If you're not on your P's and Q's and you haven't, you know, gone to work on it in your living room, push your couch back, and Annie would know, and she would call you out on it in rehearsal.

[31:43] Dylis Croman: And that just came from, um, how she was—uh, how she experienced it growing, you know, in her time. And I think it's what—I do think it's what makes greatness, and it separates, um, the boys from the girls or whatever, you know, whatever the saying is.

[31:59] Jamie DuMont: Well, you use the word respect, which I think is such a crucial aspect of all of this because, you know, from everything we've talked to several Fosse dancers who worked directly with him, and we've obviously read a lot. It seems like he almost didn't have to say anything because everyone knew they had this respect in them, like I've got to show up. I'm dancing for Bob Fosse, or I'm doing—now I'm doing Bob Fosse's choreography. I have to drill this. I have to know this. This has to be second nature because I have such respect for this work.

[32:30] Dylis Croman: Right. There's a reverence to—reverence. It's almost like, you know, like, uh, classical ballet, and it's—it's not, you know, it's obviously not classical ballet. It's a different type of dance, but it has that rev—that same type of reverence that I think, um, you know, was demanded from the dancers, and—and they want it to, you know, she used to say they want you—we wanted to work hard because he was working just as hard as you were.

[32:55] Dylis Croman: Candy Brown told us on Pippin, they spend an entire afternoon just doing this, moving their index finger back and forth, getting it right—an entire afternoon. And she didn't say it with a can you believe that attitude. It was like, no, that's what we did. So that's how we got it right.

[33:12] Jamie DuMont: How much they care.

[33:13] Dylis Croman: Yeah, yeah. And you think about that, like, I don't—you can answer this question better than I, but in your career as a dancer, have you spent an entire afternoon on one specific movement that's—that's seconds of choreography?

[33:27] Dylis Croman: Yeah, um, I have actually with—with Annie.

[33:30] Jamie DuMont: Yeah, it makes sense there.

[33:33] Dylis Croman: She was—she was the one that would do that to me. Yeah, and we would work on, you know, like the—the dancing man kicks, you know. We would go to the corner and just continue. You know, she would do this with the Fosse cast, um, on the road, especially. I specifically remember one day we were in the, um, rehearsal room, and she just had us go from across—like doing across the—across the room with these kicks, these dancing man kicks and the lean back and the, you know, the what she called the wet tissue that you're trying to get like wet tissue off your hand, you know, and it's behind you, but you're—those snapback of the leg and the lean back and the a palm with the head and the shoulders back, and I mean, it had to be so specific.

[34:10] Dylis Croman: And she drilled it and drilled it and drilled it, and then I woke up the next day. I was like, oh, well, my hamstrings are a little sore. I'm gonna have to do a little icing, but that—but no, yeah. That's—but then we got it, you know. We understood now what it was, and we didn't have to ask any more questions. We're like, that's what the dancing man kick's supposed to be—the tissue on your hand.

[34:28] Jamie DuMont: I love that image.

[34:30] Dylis Croman: Yeah, I love how the—that Bob and Gwen and how they all had these very specific images for what you were—the soft boiled eggs or whatever it is, the waterfall or the—the cuff links, the heavy huffy, heavy cufflinks in, um, Frug and the riding of Ferrari. I mean, there's just so many of them, and there's—the minute you hear that, the heavy bedded bangled beads or whatever it is, you know exactly what you're talking about and exactly what that movement is.

[35:02] Jamie DuMont: I don't know, again, you can probably answer this. Do you work with other choreographers that that approach the work that same way with those vivid imagery?

[35:11] Dylis Croman: I didn't work specifically with Twilight. I mean, I did move in and I did the lead in on the tour.

[35:17] Dylis Croman: And, um, I only worked with her in like audition—the audition process, but the—her audition process is very thorough, and she's there with every—100%.

[35:28] Dylis Croman: Yeah, it's legendary.

[35:29] Dylis Croman: Yeah, truly. I mean, you feel like you've had—get a master class in one of her auditions, you know, and you do. But she is very specific, but also very free. Like it's—it's the—it's again that juxtaposition of like freedom, but also she wants this, you know.

[35:44] Jamie DuMont: And, um, so is that frustrating?

[35:46] Dylis Croman: Like it can be confusing sometimes because when you're trying to find it, you're like, well, I'm really—I don't know, I'm not sure exactly what she's looking for. But that's—that unknown area of like a little bit where you start to get a little fearful of like, uh-oh, I'm gonna do something wrong. That's when you need to just like push it aside and go for it. Go for broke, like just go, um, and see what comes out. Because usually that first time that you allow yourself to be totally free that way and not—not judge it, not put anything on it, just do it with everything you got.

[36:18] Dylis Croman: You know, you might fall on your face, but hey, it shows the choreographer, whoever's creating that you are really trying to make it right for them and also make it your own. But yeah, Twilight, and I was grateful that I had that, uh, specifically for, um, Moving Out that I had that moment with her in the room because I had auditioned for that show 10 times for the ensemble.

[36:38] Dylis Croman: Like I was just going in. I just wanted to be in that show as a dancer. I was like, I walked up in Moving Out. Um, and I kept getting called back and then not hired, and then finally my agent said, okay, I said, you know, this is the 11th time going in. I said, but 11 is my favorite number, so let's try this. Let's see what happens.

[36:54] Dylis Croman: And sure enough, went in and I auditioned just like I always had, and thinking I was coming in for the ensemble. And then she hired me for Brenda, the lead.

[37:04] Jamie DuMont: And so it was worth the wait.

[37:06] Dylis Croman: Yeah, it wasn't worth the wait.

[37:11] Jamie DuMont: Well, speaking of auditions, you know, you have had this amazing career, obviously.

[37:15] Dylis Croman: Oh, you've done so many different things.

[37:17] Dylis Croman: Uh, and in some really beautiful ways, have stepped into some roles that Ann Reinking did, right? I mean, you've—you've played Cassie in A Chorus Line, you've done Roxy Hart on Broadway and on tour, right?

[37:28] Dylis Croman: Exactly. So, how did your dancing experience come about? What was that audition like?

[37:31] Dylis Croman: Oh gosh, okay, yeah. Wow. I, um, I wasn't sure I was gonna even go into it. Um, I wasn't—I wasn't sure because I—

[37:37] Jamie DuMont: We've heard that from several people.

[37:40] Dylis Croman: Really? Oh, okay. I've listened, by the way, I've listened to a lot of the podcasts, and you—I just—it's so interesting to hear these people that I love and respect so much talk about their journey.

[37:50] Dylis Croman: And so I did hear that actually a couple of times. But yeah, I—for me, I wasn't sure if I was gonna go in. And then I then I decided, you know, let me—I actually got a call from my friend Tara McLeod, who I played with, who was my Velma on the road. And she randomly called me one day, and she was like, you know, we were just talking, catching up. She goes, are you going into this, uh, dancing call? And I said, I'm not sure. I just don't know. I, you know, the pandemic had happened. A lot had—in that time in my life, I'd had a lot of loss that had happened. So I was kind of in this dark, I mean, you know, a little bit of a darker place, and I was just getting—trying to get through that.

[38:25] Dylis Croman: And, um, she goes, wait a minute, didn't you work with Wayne in Sweet Charity? You know, like—and I was like, yeah, you know, like I was just kind of like not sure. And she goes, well, I mean, you know, die, you might—you might want to rethink this. You would be so great in this show. And I reached out to Wayne personally because, you know, I just thought, well, what do I have to lose? So I did, and I—and I asked him, I said, you know, because I am more mature and older, I wanted to know, like, is there a spot in here for me?

[38:56] Dylis Croman: I mean, I'm not obviously not trying to ask for the job on the phone here, but like, should I even come in for this? Um, is there a spot? He said, he said, you know, we definitely am are auditioning everybody. I'm not, you know, that's—I want to see everybody in the room, which I totally understand that. And I'm glad he did because look at the cast he selected from—it's all about energy, you know. And so he wanted to feel the energy in the room. But he said, um, I'll, you know, I would need you to come in, but yes, there is a spot in here for you. You know, just—he understood my question, right? Being an older, you know, more mature dancer.

[39:28] Dylis Croman: And so I decided that that right then and there after that conversation, I said, okay, I'm gonna go for it. And in the audition, okay, I was actually living in Nashville at the time. I was living in Nashville during the pandemic. Um, so I flew in and I brought Annie's boots with me.

[39:44] Dylis Croman: Um, because unbeknownst to me, we actually wear the same size shoe, and I didn't know that till after she passed. And her husband, Peter, uh, generously offered for me to go through her dance shoes. And I was like, "Oh, okay, I'd love to look through them." I don't know if any of them, you know, I don't know if we wear the same size, but sure enough, I put on these boots, and it's like a Cinderella story. They fit me perfectly. So I wore and I literally danced in Annie's shoes in the dance and audition. It was the chills I'm having right now, let me tell you. And it was crazy because I had never danced in them before. I mean, I'd worn them around my house and kind of did a little bit in my living room just to see how they felt, because I certainly wanted to make sure they felt okay before going into a major audition, but I hadn't really danced danced in them yet. And they felt like literally I had been wearing them for like they were already broken in. It was crazy. And yeah, and I danced, I danced really freely that day. I'll never forget that audition.

[40:41] Jamie DuMont: Well, she was with you.

[40:42] Dylis Croman: She was with me. And also having Wayne and Corinne on the other side of the table and having them looking, smiling back at me. I mean, these are parts of my life that came together in such a beautiful way. Um, because "Sweet Charity" was also such a, uh, like a marker in my career that I will always, always remember. That cast was also just so much fun. I cannot tell you how much we laughed in that cast. We, I mean, just to the point of tears every night, just cackling. We had some really funny people, Rhett George, uh, Tim Smith. I mean, they just kept us rolling. But Wayne and Corinne were just, you know, that was my first time working with them. And that was in 2005, I think. It was just another magical experience that Wayne and Corinne were the head of.

That was when I also, you know, one of the reasons that show was very memorable to me is that I stepped in for Christina Applegate five minutes into the show. She hurt her foot, and I had never had any rehearsal, you know, no rehearsal whatsoever. Um, Beverly Jenkins, our PSM, our production stage manager that is also our PSM on "DANCIN'", she came up to me. I saw that the curtain came down, so the audience was like, "Okay, something's happening. Something's going on." And Beverly came to me and said, "You can say no if you can't, you know, if you because you contractually haven't had one rehearsal." So, but we were in Chicago, Illinois at this time. Prior to that, you know, we were in New York rehearsing, and I had, after six o'clock would break, I would go to my vocal coach, to my acting coach, and I would work on the material.

So I was pretty prepared for it because I just thought, just in case. Right. You know, just in case. And it happened. And she said, "You can say no." And I said, "I'm gonna do, I'm gonna say yes, let's do this," you know. So I went and put the "Charity" wig on. I have a great picture of my friend Tyler took of just, um, of me getting ready and just the focus on my face, you know. And then the curtain rose and I finished the show. I'll get to the very cherry on top for that evening was at the very end of the show. Um, Dennis O'Hara, who was playing my Oscar, said, "Would you mind doing a Q&A? I have a bunch of people out there that would love to talk to you after what they've just witnessed tonight," you know.

And so I went out and did the Q&A. At the end of the Q&A, this one single figure sort of walking towards me, or that's how I see it now. And she puts her hand out and she says, "Hi, I'm Mary Ann. I'm Bob Fosse's sister. My brother would have been so proud of you tonight." And I was, I mean, I just immediately broke into an ugly cry because everything I'd been holding, all my adrenaline just came to the surface, and I just, you know, balled in front of her. And I said, "What? Oh my god." She said, "Actually, I've seen you perform before when you were in Chicago last time and did the Fosse, did the trumpet solo. And, uh, so I was so honored that I got to see you tonight of all nights do what you just did."

I called Annie up that night. I was like, "Does Bob Fosse have a sister named Marianne? I can't believe this. This is what's happening right now." And sure enough, she goes, "Absolutely," and she lives in Chicago. That "Sweet Charity" was definitely special in so many ways. But yeah. So walking into that room for this audition was just sort of this all these different phases of your life, you know, your connection with Annie, your experience with Wayne and Corinne.

[44:05] Jamie DuMont: That's it.

[44:05] Dylis Croman: It allows me to be a little bit more. Yeah, just meeting in an infinity sign. Looping around each other.

[44:12] Jamie DuMont: Yeah.

[44:13] Dylis Croman: It was very special. And so, and I, you know, I went in like three times for "DANCIN'", three times. And I was here for four days, and I was at the studio for most of the time I was here. And then I flew back to Nashville just with everything crossed. Like, I felt like it was, I was gonna get this, you know, but I just didn't know. You just never know what they're actually putting together. I cried like a baby again when I got the call that, um, that I was gonna be a part of the cast of "DANCIN'".

[44:40] Rob Russo: Well, now you've come through this amazing experience that unfortunately is, you know, it's coming to an end. But one thing that we've loved to talk to everyone about on the podcast is, you know, sort of the moments in the show where they get, uh, pop or shine or have a soloist, you know, moment. Um, and there are so many for everyone, which is what's so exciting about, you know, the way the show is structured. You know, I guess the first one that we wanted to talk to you about is the bookstore in "Big City Mime." I shared this with Jamie. I was at a particularly raucous matinee a couple weeks ago, and I had some very vocal folks behind me. And at first it was bothering me, but then I realized they were being vocal because they were so into the show, they were so invested in it. And we got to the bookstore scene, and you started doing your thing. And anyone who saw the show knows what I mean by Dylis doing her thing.

[45:31] Dylis Croman: Yeah, in that moment. And you could hear from them the recognition of the style and the legacy that was just exploding on that stage.

[45:41] Rob Russo: In that moment.

[45:42] Dylis Croman: Yeah, and it was such a special audience experience for me. But I share it because I imagine for you, it's also, you know, a pretty incredible moment to step into that choreography.

[45:54] Dylis Croman: It is. I mean, the Manson trio for me is kind of the epitome of the style. There's so, it's, and yeah, and it is so exciting when you hear like little things coming from the little grunts or the recognition that you're talking about. It's so cool because then you realize, oh, okay, these people know what this is. They're my people.

[46:13] Rob Russo: They're our people.

[46:15] Dylis Croman: Yeah, exactly. Um, and you feel so supported. But it's the Manson trio is, I mean, um, I wish we could do the whole thing because I just, it's one of my favorite things, one of my favorite pieces, but it's so deceivingly difficult because it's so minute. And I remember Wayne, he, that the note I kept getting from Wayne, and it was so funny because I was like, "Gosh, I, you know, I've like slapped myself on the hand, you know, better than this." But I, you know, smaller, get smaller, Dylis smaller, and I, you know, he's right. For me, it's like the hardest thing to do, you know, for anybody because we want to just live, you know, dance and kick our face and do all that, but it, it, the heart, the difficulty is pulling it back and feeling like, is it reading?

Is it reading? Can they see it? But the Manson trio is just, it's a masterpiece, I think, that Mr. Fosse created. It's an absolute masterpiece, it's got that dark wit to it and the sensuality, the just the style is just, it's represented fully in that trio. And the bookstore is so much fun. I mean, getting to do that with Peter every night, we play with it every night. We get, you know, it's a little different, and it's a great feature for me. I do, I really do enjoy it and, uh, you know, it's, it's to get to, I mean that one, sorry, the Manson trio actually is one of the things I've actually never done. So when I, when I was told I was gonna do, you know, "Pippin," like I was like, "Okay, that's great because I'm not, I've never, this is, I've done a lot of his work through the years, but that's one I've taught, I mean I've taught it, but I've never performed it, you know, so yeah, it's, it's great to touch on that every night and it's harder to perform than it is to teach.

[47:28] Rob Russo: Correct.

[47:28] Dylis Croman: Yes, it's harder to perform. It really, really is because it all, it really always goes back to the fact that you're on stage, you have, you know, 1200 people staring back at you and you think you have to reach the back of the house with this movement, but it's really not, it does not work. This particular trio does not work if you push it. It actually looks, it really just starts to take a really uncomfortable shape to, and it feel you can feel it when it starts to happen and sometimes I'm like, "Oh, you're going there," and I can't get it back. Like, you know, it's such a, you know, it's such a meter you have to kind of find that going back to talking about that little fire, that, um, that needle, you know, you have to kind of tap into that sewing needle in your heart and say, "This is enough, just stop there, just keep it right here, keep it as a sweet spot."

With that number, there's a sweet spot. And the reason I think it's so hard to perform is because you are as a performer, what you know, your instinct doesn't want to go bigger to reach the back of the house. But it's that, it's that make them come to you.

[49:10] Rob Russo: Instruction.

[49:12] Dylis Croman: Exactly. Exactly. You know, that is Wayne uses that all the time. Like, "Don't do too much, let them come to you." You know, that's what this is built for. Just let them, and we do.

[49:20] Rob Russo: Yeah.

[49:21] Dylis Croman: Good. I'm glad. You know, those hip bumps. Yeah, it's like, oh, you know, my favorite. Just the beginning, those back bumps.

[49:29] Rob Russo: Yes.

[49:30] Dylis Croman: Yeah. It's juicy. It's juicy good goodness. I love it.

[49:33] Rob Russo: When "Johnny Comes Marching Home."

[49:37] Dylis Croman: Yeah.

[49:37] Rob Russo: Now that feels like the opposite of what we're talking about.

[49:41] Dylis Croman: It's a different version than what was in the original.

[49:45] Rob Russo: I think it also has just a very different feel than the original did.

[49:48] Dylis Croman: It does. You know, and I think it just is how our America was, has been, um, put together and created. It's a little less, a little less patriotic, I guess, quote unquote. It's more sentimental for me.

[50:02] Dylis Croman: The way I do it. I also think it's the way you sing the song. You sing the song, it's really sad. It's really heartfelt. It's, there's so much emotion in how you're singing it. And I feel like in '78, it definitely had a different tone.

[50:16] Rob Russo: Totally different.

[50:17] Dylis Croman: 100%. And there's video of a performance of it, you can see. But um, there's a, I'm trying to think of the right word. I don't want to say melancholy, but there's a, there's a reverence to how you do it, but there's also a nod of like, we're in a different place, right? We're, uh, we're, our country is, we're going through some stuff.

[50:38] Dylis Croman: Absolutely. And that's, that's exactly where I'm coming from with it. Um, not only is it sentimental because it, you know, Ann Reinking did it originally, but so I have that, but also it, it really is for me. I'm wanting to represent, you know, where we are in the world and, and the crazy, the craziness, um, that the world is, uh, experiencing is just, um, it's, there's a lot going on and I, and I, I sometimes when I sing it, I every now and then I, I normally don't look down to, to watch people in the audience because I, it, it really breaks my focus. Um, but every now and then I'll see someone like wipe a tear from their eye in the front or second row. And I just feel like, you know, that's what theater and art's all about is to allow people to feel something and to have a moment where, and our show "DANCIN'" is so exciting and so electric for, and so for me, I, I do feel like that that moment is, it has a reverence to it, um, more solemn and more solemn.

And I mean what, you know, I'm, I'm such a, um, sap, I'm a drama queen, so I do enjoy really going there with the, you know, those kind of things. And I'm also like, I, I mean, I'm a goofball and I'm funny and fun and all, you know, my personality off stage is, it's got like a, like we all do have different many levels, but most of the time I'm pretty like reserved into myself, a little bit more of an introvert, you know, and I feel things deeply. We all do, right? We all have more moments. But so when I get a chance to really, you know, I like to lavish in that because I just feels good as an actor. But also there is something to be said about pulling back on that and actually doing what we talked about before, the juxtaposition of that.

And I remember Wayne, Wayne one time told me in rehearsal, he goes, uh, we were in tech and he, he goes, "Dylis, let's try." He said, "You know, it's looking great and everything that," he said, "but I just want to try this version."

[52:57] Dylis Croman: And I was like, oh, I'm feeling so good about it. I can't believe he's telling me it. But then I realized the note actually really helped me find that middle ground of having a little bit of hope.

[53:10] Jamie DuMont: Right.

[53:10] Dylis Croman: And that's all we also need in this world is just that little inkling of hope. And so I added a little bit of that. What a good director he is.

[53:18] Rob Russo: Yeah.

[53:19] Dylis Croman: Johnny's coming home. That's such a good story. Oh my gosh. Well, then of course, you know, you just talked about the many shades of your personality, and here you come again.

[53:28] Dylis Croman: Yes. You maybe get to be a little more goofy, right?

[53:31] Jamie DuMont: That's the Lucille Ball coming out of here.

[53:33] Dylis Croman: There you go. Which I was very inspired by her growing up.

[53:35] Jamie DuMont: Yeah.

[53:36] Dylis Croman: Oh, that's right. I did read that. You were a big, you were a big Lucille Ball fan.

[53:40] Dylis Croman: Yeah. Just something about her.

[53:42] Jamie DuMont: Is it the red hair?

[53:43] Dylis Croman: Yeah, it must be. It might be. It's like I connected to her as a redhead, fellow redhead, but just also just, I mean, come on. She was just brilliant.

[53:49] Dylis Croman: So I have a story for you. We won't use this. So when I was a child, my mother would always try to get me to watch, you know, like Mr. Rogers or the Electric Company or one of those shows. And I always wanted to watch I Love Lucy. And I figured out how to change the channel, right? On my own. So she would come in and I would change it to, I would change it to Lucy. This was like a joke in my family. So cut to not that many years later, I meet Lucille Ball. And I, as a, and I was still very young, I said, Oh, Miss Ball, I have to tell you that my mother always wants me to watch Mr. Rogers, but I always change the channel to you. And she said, Well, that's a mistake.

[54:29] Rob Russo: With the smoker voice.

[54:31] Dylis Croman: Yeah. Which I in the time I was like, what? But now it's a great story. But like yeah, anyway, I thought you would just hear it, too.

[54:41] Jamie DuMont: So absolutely. It really was like, oh wow, that's okay. But I thought you would enjoy that story.

[54:48] Dylis Croman: Absolutely. Absolutely. I love that story. Yeah, she was like, she was a ball buster too. I mean, she was just so that's what she had, she did have so many different flares to her personality. She was, you know, she just a pioneer in so many ways.

[55:02] Dylis Croman: I mean, some of the movies from back when she was like gorgeous, stunning, like, you know, ingenue type of role, and then you know, and then to see her completely be a total goofball in I Love Lucy, like just you know, it was just I guess I just connected to the fact that she could be such a beautiful woman and classy woman, and then just like not have any qualms about you know the faces she would make, or just being like, you know, I watched her relentlessly. I would have her on repeat, and I had the box set and the DVD set. I had all of it.

[55:43] Dylis Croman: It's a masterclass, not only in comedy, but it's just a masterclass in everything.

[55:47] Jamie DuMont: Absolutely. And also not to sleep on the fact that the woman ran a studio, yeah, right? A very successful studio, and a studio that basically, and I think this is something people don't know about Lucille Ball and Desi Arnaz, that they changed the way television is made.

[56:00] Rob Russo: Oh, yeah, right.

[56:01] Jamie DuMont: The three camera, the warm-up, all of that stuff didn't exist. Some of it they found by accident. So the three camera thing was Desi's idea, the live audience was Desi's idea, but like people don't pioneer in everything.

[56:14] Dylis Croman: Yeah, they don't understand what an intelligent, like how hard it must have been to have to have accomplished what as a woman.

[56:22] Jamie DuMont: Especially back then.

[56:23] Dylis Croman: I mean, absolutely. She just she's a force.

[56:28] Jamie DuMont: Yeah, yeah.

[56:28] Dylis Croman: Unfortunately, yeah.

[56:30] Jamie DuMont: Sadly, right?

[56:30] Dylis Croman: Yeah, sadly. People really don't. Anyway, sorry. We share the Lucy thing. I believe.

[56:35] Jamie DuMont: I thought you were inspired by her just as much.

[56:38] Dylis Croman: I love her. Oh, I think about her often, actually, in terms of just like what a remarkable human being. Tough cookie didn't suffer fools gladly. None of that stuff matters.

[56:51] Jamie DuMont: Yeah.

[56:51] Dylis Croman: I think it's all actually great. It actually adds to her whole persona for me. That's all of it.

[56:57] Jamie DuMont: But getting back to you, the whole reason we got back. Well, the whole reason Miss Ball came up was that you know, your comedic flair in Here You Come Again in the female star spot is such a treat to watch.

[57:14] Dylis Croman: Oh, thank you. It's fun to do. I mean, that number has taken so many different shapes through when you know San Diego and then now.

[57:16] Dylis Croman: Yeah, it's crazy coming from Sing Sing, you know, which is just an electric number, an incredible number, and the audience goes crazy for, and then to come out like with our little stools and just completely offset the whole show. Like it was like such a random number.

[57:39] Dylis Croman: And it was random, I think, in the original, you know, they had the microphones, it's disarming the micography. I saw dancing, I saw the tour in Chicago, and the one thing really, and I was young, and really there's two things I remember, but the number one thing I remember is that moment. That's the thing I took away from that experience.

[58:03] Jamie DuMont: Interesting.

[58:04] Dylis Croman: Wow. Okay. Well, I mean, I think it just it does, it stands alone, and it almost like does stand out. And I'm glad it's I'm glad it's standing out in a great way because like I said, it had its growing pains.

[58:15] Rob Russo: Oh, we were in San Diego.

[58:17] Dylis Croman: Yeah, it definitely has to be.

[58:19] Rob Russo: Yeah, so you saw the two different, yeah.

[58:21] Dylis Croman: Absolutely. It's really found itself. It really, it really became what it needed to become, right? And that's also been a treat to watch.

[58:29] Jamie DuMont: Oh, that's great to hear. I mean, you know, I will have to say in the San Diego version, I had a martini and I stole Yanni's cigarette straight from her hand or her mouth or something. Like I made a bit out of like the more I realized that we're all dating the same man, I slowly deteriorated further and further throughout the scene.

[58:45] Dylis Croman: And I did enjoy that. That was really the Lucille Ball coming out of me, like give me that cigarette. But yeah, both versions have been a lot of fun to play with. Different side of myself, you know, the goofy part and the silly. And it's also a reflection of the many different sides of Bob Fosse.

[59:02] Jamie DuMont: Yeah, right.

[59:03] Dylis Croman: That this one show DANCIN' would contain so many different types, not just style of dance, but shades and moods and you know, all of it. I think as a whole, from beginning to end, you really as a performer and also as an audience member, you know, you watch it go down and it is a lot of fun for me personally in my track to be able to, you know, come from the Here You Come Again, you know, silly, goofy side of myself, and then go straight into a duet with Ida that's sensual and sexy, and you know, with the fishnets and the whole thing, you know, like it's like it's such a shift.

[59:46] Dylis Croman: And so that's what I'm gonna miss. This show just has so I really do feel so grateful that I've been able to perform at this stage in my life, this much dancing, and also be able to share my character side and my voice. I'm singing as a I've been a you know, I'm a dancer in my head. I'm a dancer, but I'm also, you know, I've done enough now to feel more confident in my voice and to exercise that and to share that side of myself. It's just been such a gift.

[1:00:21] Dylis Croman: I was just telling Yani and Eo, my dressing room mates that I love so much. I was telling them a couple days ago that the feeling that I'm feeling with this show closing, with DANCIN' closing is very, very similar to the feeling I felt when We're Moving Out got its closing notice. Because I'm doing the thing I love the most. I'm doing the thing I love. What really honestly defines me, you know, I don't I try not to let my work define me fully. But there's like three-fourths of me that is defined by dance.

[1:01:00] Dylis Croman: And I feel my most myself when I'm on the stage expressing through my body. And it's just, it's a death. I mean, I hate to sound so morbid, but it really does feel in your heart, has that same feeling of something passing away, you know. But it will always live because like we were going talking about before, it's Mr. Fosse, Ann Reinking, Gwen Verdon, all you know, the people, these greats, these people that have changed so many people's lives, they're still living, they're still there, and that's what the show will be. It will always be.

[1:01:36] Dylis Croman: And we got filmed for the archives last night. Oh, the Lincoln Center Archives filmed it last night, and that was fantastic. So we were just so honored to be asked to do that. And so it's documented forever. Saying goodbye, you know, I always say it's, you know, I there's a dot dot dot, I feel with this show. I just feel like we have something so magical, and there's a dot dot dot out there for this show. I do feel that in some capacity. I have no idea what it looks like, and I might be speaking completely, you know. I who have no idea. Don't have anything to pull that from, but I'm in hopes.

[1:02:09] Dylis Croman: But in the meantime, I am gonna be playing Roxy Hart in Chicago coming up.

[1:02:14] Rob Russo: Oh, fantastic!

[1:02:16] Dylis Croman: So I'm going back to my Chicago family. Just for a week. It's just a week, but I'm grateful to be offered to play with Moss Hart again. So yeah, so you know, we move on and we, you know, hopefully can still do what we love, and we will, you know, persevere because that's what we're built to do, you know.

[1:02:37] Jamie DuMont: Well performers. It's no small thing to close a show. DANCIN' has occupied in some form or another, two years of your life, right? From workshop to Sunday.

[1:02:47] Dylis Croman: Yeah, and so that's not a small thing, right? That's a major component of part of your life.

[1:02:55] Rob Russo: And so I'm curious if you had something to say or a word of wisdom to the cast, or even something to say to yourself about the experience. What would that be?

[1:03:07] Dylis Croman: Hmm. Oh, it would just, oh god. I keep shining, keep just keep going, you know, keep shining, stay open. That's what I tell some of my students sometimes.

[1:03:29] Dylis Croman: Sorry, oh Lord. This is what I tell some of my students sometimes. There's this business is hard. It's hard to have to say goodbye to the people that you love. The create, you know, just as you said, the work that it's been put in, the heart, blood, sweat, and tears that you put into a show, and you just really become such a family. And it's the hardest thing to say goodbye to, especially when you have such a wonderful great show that we have. I mean, it's a great show. And such a unique group of people, and such a unique group of people.

[1:04:01] Dylis Croman: So I just would say to myself and to my whole dance family, just keep shining, keep dancing, keep doing what we love, because we will cross paths again, you know. I know we will, because this business is just like that, you know. Once we do get to love and know one another like we do so closely and intimately, we're family for life, and that's a gift that we've been given with this show and with each other. We're just gonna keep shining.

[1:04:28] Jamie DuMont: Well, Dylis, I will speak for myself and also for Rob. We're such big fans. I've seen you in multiple shows, and particularly in DANCIN', which is just everything about it is tailor-made for who you are as a dancer and who you are as a person. And it's just it's a privilege to watch you on stage, and it's an absolute joy to have been able to speak to you and have you close out our podcast because this has been a very gratifying and a real honor for us to talk to all of you, and so to have you and end this experience for us is just it's really a treat.

[1:05:02] Dylis Croman: Thank you, Jamie.

[1:05:03] Dylis Croman: Thank you, Rob. Honestly, thank you for doing these. They really it's been special for all of us, and I'm honored to be the last one.

[1:05:11] Dylis Croman: And you will keep shining.

[1:05:12] Dylis Croman: I will.

[1:05:13] Dylis Croman: I absolutely will. There's no other way.

[1:05:16] Jamie DuMont: Yeah.

[1:05:16] Dylis Croman: There's no other way. We know it.

[1:05:19] Jamie DuMont: Thank you.

[1:05:19] Dylis Croman: Thank you.

[1:05:21] Dylis Croman: A dancing man.

[1:05:23] Rob Russo: A dancing man.

[1:05:25] Dylis Croman: A dancing man with footsteps on the song.

[1:05:32] Jamie DuMont: DANCIN' Man, a Fabulous Invalid Podcast, is a production of OM etc. and the Fabulous Invalid LLC, and a proud member of the Broadway Podcast Network. Special thanks to Civilian for hosting us and to our audio engineer, Kyle Moore.

[1:05:45] Jamie DuMont: If you liked this episode, we've got over a hundred episodes of the Fabulous Invalid Podcast that you can check out, including a two-parter on the life, work, and legacy of Bob Fosse and Gwen Verdon. You can find us online at the Fabulous Invalid.com and on social media at Fabulous Invalid and on iTunes, Spotify, and wherever you get your podcasts.