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[0:00] Jamie DuMont: I'm Jamie DuMont.

[0:01] Rob Russo: I'm Rob Russo, and this is The Fabulous Invalid.

[0:17] Jamie DuMont: Hi, Rob.

[0:18] Rob Russo: Hi, Jamie.

[0:19] Jamie DuMont: Well, the girls are away.

[0:20] Rob Russo: Leslie is wrapping up uh previews on uh well by the time this airs, they will be open.

[0:27] Jamie DuMont: They will have opened.

[0:28] Rob Russo: Oh, exciting.

[0:29] Jamie DuMont: As everybody knows, the the curtain is off the closet.

[0:33] Rob Russo: As that's not a saying, is it?

[0:35] Jamie DuMont: I don't think so.

[0:35] Rob Russo: I just made that up.

[0:36] Jamie DuMont: But basically, you know, we're like a week or two behind, is what he tried to say.

[0:41] Rob Russo: Um and Jennifer is actually probably gearing to go on stage as we speak.

[0:47] Jamie DuMont: As we speak, yeah.

[0:48] Rob Russo: But um, hi, what's going on?

[0:50] Jamie DuMont: Well, um, we had an amazing evening uh last night at the opening night of Hades Town.

[0:56] Rob Russo: And um, again, this is a couple weeks later, but um I'm still kind of like it'll still be running in this air.

[1:03] Jamie DuMont: It will definitely still be running if I have anything to do about it, uh say about it.

[1:08] Rob Russo: Um my gosh, it was just such an incredible special evening. I, you know, put in a plug to all of our listeners to to get tickets for Hades Town.

[1:16] Jamie DuMont: Um maybe even try the mezzanine, which is where we sat.

[1:20] Rob Russo: You know I'm a bit of a snob about where I sit.

[1:22] Jamie DuMont: Yes.

[1:23] Rob Russo: And I sometimes get cranky when I look at my locations and they have me in the mezzanine, but there are certain shows that really do the I think the term is a mezzanine show that look great in the mezzanine.

[1:34] Jamie DuMont: Hades Town looks great everywhere now, everywhere in the theater I've come to learn.

[1:38] Rob Russo: Yeah, yeah.

[1:39] Jamie DuMont: And I will say, well, the coolest thing for my experience with Hades Town is I went to see it in London last fall at the Royal National Theatre.

[1:46] Rob Russo: Um, and have now seen it on Broadway.

[1:49] Jamie DuMont: And it's at the Walter Kerr Theater on Broadway, which is one of the smallest houses.

[1:52] Rob Russo: It's it's usually a playhouse.

[1:54] Jamie DuMont: It's rarely used for musicals, um, because of its intimacy and um, you know, the size of the stage and the relationship between um the mezzanine and the stage.

[2:03] Rob Russo: Um and in London, it was at the National Theater Um in the Olivier, which is huge.

[2:09] Jamie DuMont: It's you know, if you've never been, it's sort of like the Vivian Beaumont at Lincoln Center.

[2:14] Rob Russo: It's got a giant apron stage, it's very wide, no proscenium, very modern, very clean, very sleek.

[2:19] Jamie DuMont: Um and seeing the show, which is it's a small show, you know, seven-member band, probably a cast around a dozen folks.

[2:27] Rob Russo: Um, seeing the show at the National Theater in this giant house and on Broadway in this very intimate space, completely transformed the experience.

[2:37] Jamie DuMont: Same show. I mean, you know, they've obviously same uh uh principles, same number of the same uh principal cast.

[2:43] Rob Russo: The dancers are different, right?

[2:44] Jamie DuMont: The ensemble's all different and the fates are different.

[2:47] Rob Russo: Um the same five principal characters.

[2:51] Jamie DuMont: Um and obviously, you know, they tweak the show between London and New York, but the experience of seeing it, even in the mezzanine at the Walter Kerr, which it's not a bad seat in that in that theater.

[3:01] Rob Russo: First of all, the Kerr is a fabulous theater.

[3:03] Jamie DuMont: It's gorgeous.

[3:03] Rob Russo: And I know I say that about everything.

[3:05] Jamie DuMont: I do.

[3:06] Rob Russo: But the mezzanine is very forward in that theater, and it's very steep.

[3:11] Jamie DuMont: The rake is very, I mean, you saw me falling up the stairs several times last night.

[3:17] Rob Russo: Which, if anybody hasn't ever fallen up a set of stairs, it does take work.

[3:21] Jamie DuMont: It's it's an effort to fall up a set of stairs.

[3:23] Rob Russo: Yeah.

[3:24] Jamie DuMont: But um, yeah. It was really, it was really it's it's a testament to the fact that we you know you can have the best show, but if it's not in the right theater, you know, it it it it it makes a difference.

[3:34] Rob Russo: It does.

[3:35] Jamie DuMont: Well, I'm excited to talk to our guests this week.

[3:38] Rob Russo: Um our first director.

[3:39] Jamie DuMont: Our first director.

[3:40] Rob Russo: We've gotten this far in the season without uh without a well, Warren has directed, and Joel Gray has Joel Gray has directed, but they're both Joel is known primarily as a as a performer and an actor and uh Warren's a choreographer.

[3:54] Jamie DuMont: Warren's known known for his core.

[3:56] Rob Russo: This is a gentleman by the name of Des McAnuff.

[3:59] Jamie DuMont: Des McAnuff is the first true director by trade, and quite a prolific director at that.

[4:06] Rob Russo: Right.

[4:06] Jamie DuMont: Yeah.

[4:07] Rob Russo: So this is quite a treat.

[4:08] Jamie DuMont: Yeah, I'm excited.

[4:09] Rob Russo: And I'm a big fan of How to Succeed, of Jersey Boys.

[4:14] Jamie DuMont: His body of work is yeah.

[4:15] Rob Russo: Ain't Too Proud.

[4:16] Jamie DuMont: Yeah, which I love on many levels.

[4:19] Rob Russo: So this is a treat.

[4:20] Jamie DuMont: Yeah, let's do it.

[4:22] Rob Russo: Well, it's like he said, I'm an outdoor girl.

[4:25] Jamie DuMont: Living it living it up.

[4:27] Rob Russo: Married to the king of the underworld, living it up, bouncer.

[4:32] Jamie DuMont: Trying to enjoy myself.

[4:36] Rob Russo: Six months out of every 12, live in it up, bouncer.

[4:40] Jamie DuMont: Today we are honored to welcome two-time Tony Award-winning director Des McAnuff with over three decades of smash hits, including The Who's Tommy, How to Succeed in Business, Jersey Boys, and This Season's Ain't Too Proud, The Life and Times of the Temptations.

[4:54] Rob Russo: Des has also served as artistic director of both the La Jolla Playhouse and Stratford Festival.

[4:59] Jamie DuMont: Des, welcome to The Fabulous Invalid.

[5:01] Des McAnuff: Thank you so much.

[5:02] Jamie DuMont: Thank you.

[5:03] Des McAnuff: So I just have to clear my conscience before we start.

[5:06] Jamie DuMont: Please, oh, you did something to me.

[5:08] Des McAnuff: I did, and I think I owe you some money.

[5:14] Jamie DuMont: Uh-huh.

[5:14] Des McAnuff: I second acted How to Succeed so many times.

[5:17] Jamie DuMont: Oh.

[5:18] Des McAnuff: Back in the day when you could second act something.

[5:21] Jamie DuMont: Um, and I sat in the balcony.

[5:23] Des McAnuff: Well, not the balcony, but the way back of the mezzanine of the Rogers.

[5:27] Jamie DuMont: Rogers Theater, right?

[5:28] Des McAnuff: Um, so no one would detect me.

[5:31] Jamie DuMont: Usually on a Tuesday or a Thursday night, which was always a good night for that.

[5:35] Des McAnuff: So I feel like I owe you some lost royalties.

[5:38] Jamie DuMont: Oh Alyssa, thank you so much.

[5:44] Des McAnuff: And sat beside you.

[5:45] Jamie DuMont: And yeah.

[5:46] Des McAnuff: I loved uh getting to do that.

[5:49] Jamie DuMont: And uh they're great uh teachers.

[5:52] Des McAnuff: You know, you do these old musicals or classical plays, and you know, you learn so much from people that are long gone just by studying their texts.

[6:03] Jamie DuMont: And one of the things that about that show that one discovers uh, and it's the key to understanding uh how to stage it, is that there is not a single sincere moment in that entire show.

[6:19] Des McAnuff: And everybody has to seem like they're being truthful, but no one ever is. Everyone has an agenda, uh, and that really works, you know, uh brilliantly. And if you if you tr start to slide into any kind of sentimentality, or you know, you make anybody even remotely sincere, it collapses like a house of cards.

[6:40] Jamie DuMont: So as long as you continue to, you know, you know, keep that as your sort of mantra, then the show sort of leads you along.

[6:47] Des McAnuff: You know, uh it was interesting. Uh uh Wayne Salento, who I collaborated with, uh, is brilliant at doing comedic choreography, which is not something he was necessarily known for, but we did a production of Forum as well, which he was also spectacular at doing, you know, and uh he would use steps from Follies, you know, for the four guys, and and I wish I could demonstrate to present you.

[7:16] Jamie DuMont: Thank you.

[7:17] Des McAnuff: And um so he had this great uh comedic you know vocabulary. He's very, very funny with movement, which is not so easy to do.

[7:26] Des McAnuff: Hey, Kennedy!

[7:28] Rob Russo: That's great, big brother.

[7:30] Des McAnuff: Brother, sister, sister, sister, sister, sister!

[8:04] Rob Russo: Yo, yo, yo, yo.

[8:17] Des McAnuff: The key with Matthew is we did it in La Jolla before we remounted it at the Kennedy Center. And Matthew is not a real dancer, and I want to point out, nor am I. So I'm this is uh, you know, I have every right to say that because I say it with deep sympathy. And uh so I can stage numbers, but I always need, you know, the the choreographer to do the steps.

[8:41] Des McAnuff: I I love staging numbers, as I suppose is obvious. Um, but uh the thing is we when we realized that Matthew could do, you know, certain things and certain things he did wonderfully well, uh just in terms of his you know movement, he's like, you know, he has the that Jack Benny timing and so on. And uh so when we redid the the production, Wayne very cleverly used Matthews' movement style as the basis for much of the choreography, particularly his choreography, and it worked a treat.

[9:17] Des McAnuff: So he he kind of looked like Fred Astaire up there, but he was just doing what he could do, and all the other dancers, many of whom were actually you know quite brilliant, just fell into step with uh with Matthew. So that show was was a blast, and you know, I had people like Jeff Blumencrantz and you know Jonathan Freeman, who is you know a brilliant uh brilliant musical comes far more about musical comedy than I ever hoped to.

[9:45] ♪ Musical number: "A Secretary Is Not A Toy" — performed by Des McAnuff ♪

[10:19] Des McAnuff: So moving forward a a couple of years uh into the now, congratulations on the smash success of Ain't Too Proud.

[10:26] Jamie DuMont: Thank you so much.

[10:27] Des McAnuff: It's um it's it's really such a remarkable uh evening in the theater. Um and I wonder, um, there are there are people that that may be looking at this as a book and to Jersey Boys, and I think there's a there's a misperception out there that you're a jukebox musical guy, which is not true.

[10:46] Jamie DuMont: This is I'm so I'm so pleased that you're saying that.

[10:49] Des McAnuff: Well, this is this is this is the third one you've done. And how many other shows have you directed? A hundred, two hundred?

[10:56] Jamie DuMont: I I you know between Jersey Boys and Ain't Too Proud, and I know this because my uh assistant Megan Dieterly uh volunteered to do this, uh I've actually directed uh 27 productions since Jersey Boys, and uh only three of them have been so-called jukebox or catalog or biography, you know, musicals, uh Summer, the Donna Summer production, and uh uh Jersey Boys and Ain't Too Proud Inclusive, and that's it.

[11:29] Des McAnuff: I mean, in fact, I think I've done something like, if this is right, I think I've done seven classics, six by Shakespeare, and uh, you know, two of those productions, by the way, starring the great Christopher Plummer, who's also a wonderful uh not only actor, but teacher and partner. So yeah, actually I think in all other genres, uh, you know, uh classic musicals, uh new plays, uh and new musicals with new scores, I think I've done more productions than three in all of those categories.

[12:08] Des McAnuff: But you know what happens, and it's understandable, is if a show gets a lot of visibility or you're lucky enough to have it proliferate, and some of those other shows, by the way, have done multiple times too, but nothing quite like um, you know, uh uh Jersey Boys. So when, you know, when you see it, you know, on, you know, enough enough three sheets or whatever, uh, then you know, obviously, you know, people assume that that's kind of what you do.

[12:36] Jamie DuMont: And uh I'm very proud of those shows. Please don't get me wrong, but uh I I I think I would be um I couldn't just do one genre. You know, I I I'm I'm my career is much too confused.

[12:51] Des McAnuff: And uh, you know, I I look at the next bright shiny object, and I I want, you know, the thing about being a director, not unlike, by the way, journalism, but it's sort of a dilettante's paradise, you know, because you really get to move into a new solar system without necessarily even being all that knowledgeable about it. I mean, you have to obviously study like crazy and come out the other end with a real working knowledge of the subject. But you know, people allow you to you know drop back into you know 11th century Scotland without necessarily a degree in in history.

[13:34] Des McAnuff: And uh it's which is so you want to take full advantage of that and keep leaping from you know lilypad to lilypad. And so that that's been you know the the way I've been uh running my uh so-called career.

[13:48] Rob Russo: Well that that so-called career, as you just said, uh, I believe you started out wanting to be a playwright, is that right?

[13:54] Des McAnuff: You know, I I still actually write. Um and um I started off the I guess actually the very and this is you know enters even deeper into the uh uh uh land of my confusion. Um but I really I started off writing songs, writing and composing music, and I started that one as very, very young. I was I was well, very young, I mean I I I wasn't like Mozart, and I certainly couldn't compose like him either. But I started writing when I was uh about 14. And I did a couple of high school musicals like everybody else, and you know, uh, and then uh uh I I actually did you know the Fossey number in uh in uh pajama game uh Steam Heat without dancing it by the one just sang there and you know saying it with black tights on.

And um so then you know, hair came along, and I would have been about 17 and came to Toronto and there were and I I just what hair kind of taught me is that there was music that was like the music I was listening to and playing, you know, as in bands. Everybody, by the way, in the late 60s, uh was in a rock and roll band, everybody or an RB band. And um you just had to be, there was no choice, you know. Uh you know, and uh so I I'd been doing that, and so when Hair came along, I kind of applied my rather feeble knowledge of of you know musicals with the music that I loved, and I composed a show. So I started as with music and then got into writing, and at a certain point as a writer, I I wanted to write plays, and so uh even here in the city, going back to uh my public theater days, I I wrote plays Joe Papp, you know, supported my my writing, and I came to him as a writer.

I wrote a play called Leave It to Be for his dead with uh Diane Weist and Mandy Patinkin and Brent Spiner wonderful company and Joe was uh always fond of writers and suspicious of directors and so the uh it was great that I came to him as a writer because when I started directing for him uh he still would put his hand on my shoulder and treat me with great affection uh so I did back into directing which is the way I think most of us arrive here.

[16:31] Rob Russo: So the public was where you started directing or you would I directed in Canada a little bit and at you know I I realized at a certain point that directors seemed to be able to get projects on and with playwrights you know you had to kind of submit your work and while it was a very vibrant scene in Toronto and I don't even know if I'm being completely truthful with you because I think the I think the bottom line is that writing involves a lot of solitude and directing is social and it's simply until opening night you know more fun. You know you're with people you know you you get to have conversations and get to know people whereas you know writing your you you spend so much time on your own lonely depressed calling your therapist so directing's just more stimulating.

[17:26] Rob Russo: With Ain't Too Proud when you were out of town with three cities before coming to New York, is that correct?

[17:33] Des McAnuff: Yeah, well, if you include Berkeley, I think it's actually even four, yeah.

[17:37] Rob Russo: That's correct, yes. I'm forgetting about Berkeley. So is there when you have such a long out of town period, is there some sort of, is there more pressure or is it more relief because you know you have time to work on things?

[17:51] Des McAnuff: I would again say there's no recipe. You know, I think every canvas, you know, requires a a certain amount of time to paint and to, you know, and and and uh, you know, you if you're going to put more coats on, you need to wait for that paint to dry, and and it can be, you know, you can sometimes move very quickly, and uh you you're working on impulses and sort of intuition, uh, and and that can be that can be really great. I think with um with Tom the Who's Tommy uh thing I that I had the privilege of working with Pete Townsend of the Who, you know, we were actually working from liner notes, and I'm not exaggerating. Off the album. That's how the script got created. And I was storyboarding, moving liner notes around and then filling in, you know, uh stage directions, and it's mainly sung through, and you know, we would he would help me rewrite a few of the lyrics here and there, I'd make suggestions, and we kept doing that.

We were that was probably February, and we were in uh casting by April and in rehearsal in June. And so that was just a few months, and we went from La Jolla to New York, uh, and then making some changes in New York, but but relatively minor. You know, we mainly got it. And that was just, you know, I I was in a band when I was 17, and I I I remember being with our roadie, who guy I still know, Dennis, at his place, we were rehearsing in you know his basement and uh and listening to this album he just bought and probably smoking something. And so I think a lot of what was in my head for that production obviously was in Pete's blood, but a lot of what was in my head came from listening to that album as a 17 year old.

So working fast was important. It was a little bit Jackson Pollock. And Jackson Pollock, by the way, that's a that's a total misnomer. So if anybody thinks that ja Jackson Pollock simply threw paint at a canvas, they're incredibly naive because that came after you know a lot of techniques. So I don't say that in a disparaging way. But sometimes plugging into your gut and your your imagination, there's there's something dreamlike about moving quickly and trusting it. In other cases, it's more cerebral. I think with Ain't Too Proud, the time really was valuable. Uh now I think we were probably ready fairly early when we went to Toronto. I think we all felt Dominique, Sergio, um uh Trojio, we all felt like you know, we pretty much muscled through a lot of the problem areas, and we probably, if if you know, a theater had you know become available earlier, or we knew we had it, maybe we would have uh taken one step, you know, moved one step earlier.

But it was a pretty good route, I've got to say, and and we weren't idle. We continued to, you know, try to refine the piece, and and uh it's a very good self-critical team, so there was plenty of work um I wouldn't want to do it on every show um you know I'd only have two or three left in me if if that were the case for one thing so I think sometimes you you I think you have to be sensitive to the rhythm you know the theater exists as you know and as uh quoting Bob Dylan in the eternal present and so if if you don't tap into the fact that on some level it's real life then you know go make a movie you know it's it is real life and so you have to I think be sensitive to you know as you do a play you're aging and so are the actors you know so if you wait too long you know Juliet's you know not not uh right for the part that's amazing um well speaking of that um in 1993 you said um what threatens the Broadway musical more than anything is they're difficult to develop if you remember saying I don't remember that I said that on Charlie long time ago did I really um and I'm wondering you know given that we just had a discussion about you know the ways that musicals develop um has that changed or do you still feel that way?

[17:53] Des McAnuff: You know I think in some ways things have gotten a little bit better in in 9293 is that 92 did you say I think it was 93 okay so we were you know we did a show at La Jolla called Big River in 85 and uh I should also give ACT credit there because they they did a an earlier version of it that was perhaps more of a play with songs and then it developed more into a musical Big River um the uh you know adaptation of Huckleberry Finn.

[22:59] Rob Russo: I did it in high school.

[23:00] Des McAnuff: Did you really?

[23:02] Rob Russo: What did you play?

[23:02] Des McAnuff: Um I was um the river, right?

[23:08] Rob Russo: No, I'm of course now I'm forgetting the character name.

[23:08] Des McAnuff: Um the the one of the two Tom Sawyer or no other.

[23:14] Rob Russo: Oh, oh, you played the Duke or the King.

[23:16] Des McAnuff: Uh yes, yes, I was the Duke.

[23:15] Rob Russo: You played the Duke.

[23:16] Des McAnuff: And that you I think that's probably good casting. I don't think you'd I think you I don't think you'd be right for the king. It's a great Renee Auberginois played that part on Broadway and was wonderful. She's got one thing breast in the middle of her chest and an eye in the middle of a nose. So says I can look her in the eye, you're better off looking up a nose. In 1985, when we did that production, it was very unusual for those who worked in the halls of commerce and those who worked in the not-for-profit to partner. And there had reached this point, I think, where people in the commercial theater were waiting for product to be developed in the not-for-profit. And the not-for-profit theaters by that point, I a lot of them had gone become maybe a little bit lazy, not all of them, by the way.

Some wonderful theaters, but some of them were waiting for Broadway product. So you were doing the play that had happened two seasons before on Broadway when the rights became available, and you were doing that for your community and so on. Okay, perfectly good. But as musicals became more and more expensive, they just weren't getting developed. You know, you couldn't go on the road. We did it with Ain't Too Proud, but it's unusual. You know, in the old days, they would go to Washington or they'd go to Baltimore, or they'd go to New Haven and they'd they'd try it out and they wouldn't lose their shirts, hopefully doing it. But that had become that had become very expensive. And so there was this kind of things started, and La Jolla Playhouse was part of uh the inception of that system where musicals would be uh you know kind of developed in partnership.

And I think that's become quite successful. There are dangers. The not-for-profit can become hooked on the enhancement funds. And so instead of looking for the next brilliant play by Tony Kushner or someone else, uh uh Dominique Morisseau, you're you're looking for the next musical that comes with enhancement. And that's the path to mediocrity, of course. And then the on the musical side, you can also uh or on the commercial side, I think sometimes people want to kind of get in and bully the non-f not-for-profits as if it's already their show when they're actually working hopefully as guests in you know the auspices of a not-for-profit organization. But if you keep all of those principles straight and clear, then they can be fruitful, you know, relationships.

And if you look at many of the shows that are on Broadway now, uh they came through some sort of process, the public theater, you know, under Oscar Eustace or through some one of or Christopher Ashley at La Jolla Playhouse, they they kind of worked their way and developed, and they they had the kind of runway that it that it requires to get you know a B-52 bomber off the ground, and that's what a musical is, you know. So I think I think things are not to be a Pollyanna, but I think there are I think there has been success, some real substantial success uh in terms of developing musicals. But it seems like it takes longer now to develop a musical. It seems like a the path for a musical is seven or eight years, sometimes longer.

And I feel like it, you know, in the 80s and 90s, and well, let's just stay with that. Golden age. Well, but the time we're talking about when you first made this comment, I think that it was a much shorter path.

[27:05] Des McAnuff: Yeah, you know, so it's interesting how things may be more fruitful, but it's a much longer process. I think it again depends on the show. You know, again, Jersey Boys moved very quickly. Uh once again, with Rick Ellis, who was your guest. Uh I was meeting with them, and we were, I believe we were the script was still being written. Uh that was a very quirky process because I was artistic director. I could put the show in production before it was finished. I was so confident that we really had a tiger by the tail that we announced the play and it was still being written. And I was just with Clara Ziglarova, the designer for that, and we were literally designing that production, and they were coming over having not finished the writing.

We had an outline, and so we were cross-pollinating like you know, in a furious fashion. And so that happened really fast. We were in rehearsal in August, and so it was less than a year. Back in the golden age, and I wasn't being facetious, going back to the, you know, if you're 1952 and you're Frank Lesser, you know, at that time, first of all, I think the physical productions were less ambitious because you know, you know, you were dealing with and they were some beautiful designs, but everything was somewhat simpler. Lighting, obviously, you know, stage technology has developed so much since those days and is more complex and requires more preparation. But also everybody lived within 10 blocks of, you know, you know, they all lived in the same neighborhood.

So if you wanted a copyist, they were across the street, or your orchestrator lived next door and they were banging the piano at three in the morning on the song you'd just written, or you know, it was a real, you know, industry. One of the things that I think has again that's working against what you're talking about, the fact that they're complicated, is just everything that's happened with communication. You know, now people can Skype. And so you don't necessarily have to all, you know, be in the same neighborhood to create together. You know, people have found ways, and you're doing it every day, I'm sure, too, you know, to communicate long distances. Um, you know, I think there are uh uh I think maybe ebbs and flows in terms of the speed, you know, of production.

[29:41] Rob Russo: Well, and it's also a double edged sword, right? Because what you're saying about the golden age, where it was a simpler time and the lighting and the sound and all of that was easier or it was less sophisticated, therefore sort of easier to produce. Nowadays, particularly in musical theater, where everything is so technically everything's so advanced, there's also the issue that it's hard to make changes, right? Because if you have a short window in a rehearsal process or whatever that is, you're limited, I assume, in how much time you have when everything is so complicated and mechanized, right? So your hands must be tied a little bit as a director, and I would think that would be a little frustrating.

[30:26] Des McAnuff: You know, I actually in honesty don't find that. I think that there's still a fluidity in terms of you know one's ability to make changes. Uh and um, you know, I think if you plan properly, you know, I've for example, I like to generally spend no less than no fewer than five weeks in the room. I prefer in previews to not have matinee, so we can continue to make changes. So I actually, and you know, some of the things that take time, they were struggled with in 1953, too. If you're putting a new song in, you've got to restage it. You gotta do a new orchestration. So the first time you're performing that new song, it's off a piano vocal, and the audience, you hope, doesn't notice that suddenly the orchestra isn't playing in some poor guy's or woman is banging out a piano, you know, part under a song.

So I think they've always been kind of hideously complicated. I think one of the things that's interesting is you know, our perception, you know, again, we do our work on the shifting sounds of time. And so if you were to go back, I think, to 1953, and you were listening to a show that didn't have any amplification, and where you had to have the strings playing when you know somebody was singing their solo verse, and they probably were having to bellow at the top of their lungs to hit the back row of the balcony. And they were literally shouting the dialogue across the stage. It would be a somewhat foreign experience because you know, and film has affected us in television since those days. Hard to believe, but television was brand new in the early 50s. So, you know, we expect a certain kind of verisimilitude, a different kind of performance style. You know, we've grown used to that. So it's interesting that some of these technologies, I think, are necessary in order to deliver an emotional experience to an audience.

[32:42] Des McAnuff: And this is a really boring rant I'm on, so I'll cut it short in a second, I'll cut it off. But you know, that's true of the wireless microphone. The wireless microphone was actually created for in sh at sh in, you know, at the Delacourt for Shakespeare in the park. The wireless microphone was created for verse drama. I didn't always know that. I did not know that. And for a long time, we were limited to a certain number of frequencies. So you had to go to the shotgun mics, which are general mics along the front. You know what those are, of course. And so when you went to dialogue, you went to the shotguns. And so inevitably, what happened is the book scene tended to recede. And so you tried to compensate for that.

You would, if you had underscoring, you'd kick it up a step and you perk up the tempo. So you try to lift into the book scene. But by the 70s or so, you were seeing more and more sung-through musicals, fewer and fewer book musicals. There was a big thing, oh, the book musical is dead. And I think that had everything to do with the wireless microphone. Oh, that's true. When the mirror when we had enough wireless microphones that we could mic everybody, then book scenes had the same importance in a show in terms of audio as music and sound. And you saw the book scene coming back to life. So while we're very suspicious of technology in the theater, you know, I guarantee when Shakespeare's company moved into the Blackfriars, people were shouting at each other about natural light.

How can you possibly do these plays without natural light, without the sunshine? You know, how can you possibly use candles or gaslight? You know, and every time something new comes along, people are shrieking, they're so upset, you know. What happened to the natural voice in the musicals? Well, you know, I don't know, if you heard the natural voice, you know, some of you again, just like a, you know, a moose just having to try to fill the entire house. Maybe it wouldn't be as great as you think. And on the other hand, I think technology can smother, and if it's not used properly, that it can interfere with the spoken word and with you know an emotional performance. So I think you also have to be very careful that one, you know, you don't render the actors to automatons.

[35:21] Rob Russo: Right.

[35:21] Des McAnuff: And that's that's your function. That's that's all under your purview is to make sure that all of these things balance out. And I think it's also important to remember that, you know, I mean, this is true in everything. But you know, as a director, you really do want the group to come up with the ideas and you as much as possible, and frankly, if they're not, you want to create the illusion that they are. You know, the trick with holding the gavel is never using it. Right. And that's particularly true of direction. And when you're a young director, and I speak for myself, I think you do tend to want to be more controlling. You know, you think, and it's human nature, that if you're not making the decisions or appearing to be in command, then somehow you're weak. And of course, the exact opposite is true. It's when you're, you know, when you're actually really listening to your colleagues and mining their great ideas. That's when you're at your most powerful.

[36:24] Rob Russo: Because isn't that the point of assembling your creative team? I mean, you want to surround yourself with people that you trust and whose work you want to help foster and all make something great.

[36:36] Des McAnuff: Yes. That's isn't that the key, is what you're saying.

[36:39] Rob Russo: Yeah, that's you that's dead right.

[36:42] Des McAnuff: And I honestly think that's 90% of the job. It's when you're inviting people to the table, whether it's you know, designers, whoever, if you happen to come onto a project before the writer or writers, then that's critical to make sure you're inviting you know the best people to your tea party and people that you can really work with. And absolutely true with actors. I mean, I don't care how good you think you are as an actor, if you have someone who's either miscast or not capable of delivering a performance, there's nothing you're going to be able to do. I mean, you know you can enhance, you can coach, you can even teach some in rehearsal, but it's mainly about the talent and the skill that an actor has.

That's that's really what it's about. And that's one of the reasons you end up taking more and more time casting. Tara Rubin, I've been working with Tara, I won't tell you for how long, because she'll kill me. Uh she'll kill us both. Um, but you know, we go through a really arduous process. And one of the things I love about Tara is that, and I also have tried to do this myself, but she's really good at getting people to feel comfortable because when they walk into that space, you know, you want people to do their best work. So you want a warm, safe environment. And so with Tara, I'm always sure that I'm seeing the best an actor, you know, pretty much can do, or I'm gonna see them in a good light.

Uh, because you're you're right. You do not want to make a mistake. You I don't care how smart you think you are, you can't, you know, if you don't have the right, the right crew, the right team on the field, you're you know, you're not gonna win the Super Bowl, that's for sure.

[38:38] Des McAnuff: And you said a moment ago that you like to get out of the room after five weeks, no longer than five weeks. And what's the I mean, I think this is an obvious question, but what's the value of getting into the theater? What changes? What what happens that's not in the room?

[38:54] Des McAnuff: Yeah, I probably was uh uh not representing that uh uh of the way I I meant or the way intended. You know, I I want as much, I'm I'm I'm a greedy little pig. I want I want as much rehearsal time as you're gonna give me. And five weeks in the studio is generally considered a kind of a generous amount of time. I mean, I've actually spent six weeks on occasion in the studio, that's pretty rare, and then you know, two weeks of tech. No, I'm actually very happy to be in the studio for as you know, for you know within reason for as long as possible. I mean, does it get stale after a while? I really don't think so. I mean, you go through a period, particularly on a comedy, as you know, where you forget that it's funny.

Right. And so, and and one of the things I've directed a couple of solo shows, one with the great Christopher Plummer, one with Billy Crystal. And one of the things that's you know, you think, oh, I'm one man show, cool. You know, I'm not no, I don't have to stage any production numbers, you know. This is great. There's not like massive amounts of people to share dramaturgical notes with, you know, this is gonna be great. And then you get in there and you realize that sometimes you're the only person in the room. It's you, the actor, the stage manager, and you better laugh. Yeah. Because you know, it's like it's gonna be like, you know, and fortunately with both those two actors, Billy Crystal is endlessly funny, as is Chris. So I think it's about everybody in the room finding a rhythm together.

[40:43] Des McAnuff: And um, you know, I think that's the real key to you know to to working the clock. It's a good key to life, isn't it? That's true, because I guess it's all gonna run out, you know. I I uh you know, I plan to live forever, so far, so good. You know, yeah. But you that is that that's true. It is it is a key to life, yeah. And and that's actually, I think you just said a mouthful, because it's amazing how I think when people get off in get off track in what we do, they lose their common sense, and there's a lot of pressure sometimes, and a lot of judgment, and sometimes mean spiritedness, you know, and and that gets us forgetting to apply, you know, the things that that yes, you just said that that have to do with just real life, you know, treating people with respect and you know, and uh again creating a world that's uh safe for them to work in and so on. Sometimes the simplest things are the hardest things to accomplish.

[41:46] Jamie DuMont: Yeah, I think often that's the case.

[41:48] Des McAnuff: I think that's true.

[41:49] Jamie DuMont: Well, speaking of finding a rhythm, uh you very famously revived the La Jolla Playhouse in 1983 and served two different stints as artistic director, um, really putting that institution on the map as one of the leading uh incubators for new work in America. Um, as you look back on that experience and you reflect upon it, um, what are you proudest of in terms of your work there?

[42:16] Des McAnuff: Gee, um, you know, first of all, you know way too much, and um and I'm flattered to have you say that because you know, um to to kind of uh that's a very good question. Let me see how I can evade it. Um, I I I want to say that I think of all the things I've had the privilege to be involved in, you know, my role in La Jolla Playhouse is my most important achievement. And so uh, and I take nothing away from Michael Grife and Christopher Ashley have been great artistic directors. Ann Hamburger was there for uh a time too. And but I feel like that really was, you know, the happening to create uh a sandbox where others could create you know their sand castles. That's that's that's that's a really, you know, that's something I'm very, very, you know, proud of.

And um, and of course they are sand castles, so the wind comes along and the rain and they they do vanish into the mists of time. But I I still I believe that La Jolla has become this is a word that's often thought of negatively, but I think it's become an institution. And that word to me implies permanence. It's not about bureaucracy, it's something that will live on, uh, I hope, uh, for years to come. Uh, that's the thing that, by the way, for me was the key to understanding the Temptations. And the reason I embraced the project, other than the fact that Otis Williams asked me to, and he is six foot, you know, he's six foot five, and you're not gonna say no to him when he's a Otis says, I want you to do this place.

Okay, I'm happy to do that. And um, and I love him by the way. But one of the things that I saw in him in Otis that I respect so much and admire so much, is that he created an institution, an institution that achieved change, you know, in America. And so that's why Ain't Too Proud is about, and Dominique saw similar things in the story. So that's one of the reasons that that we've I think made the show about uh entrances and exits. And consistency. I think that's something that your show illustrates beautifully.

[44:41] Des McAnuff: Um, and part of the success of the Temptations, the consistency of Otis Williams and his commitment to keeping it always going under any cost. And and you the show it illustrates that beautifully. And and I think that's the the you know the the uh whole is larger than the sum of its parts, which is a major theme. You know, people can come and go, but it's it's it's the that entity, that institution that's ultimately important. And I think that is how I I try to look at La Jolla, that it's not about a single production, it's about a body of work, and it's not about a single artist, it's about a group of artists. And you know, um, this may be a little esoteric, but we did the Seagull back in 1985, and it was really a a revelation for me.

I I directed the the production, and the Seagull is lots of things. But at its the at its at that at the pit of its soul, it's a it's a microcosm for an art scene. And you have all of these characters whose souls have been shaped by a different genre of art. And they all fall in love with each other, but they can't communicate because they come from different genres. You know, Constantine is a symbolist, you know, Nina is is a an actress of of wants to be an actress of tragedy. You know, uh Tregor's a certain kind of short story writer, Arcadna's a melodramatic actress of a particular period. They all, and it's not whether they're good artists or bad artists. It's it's about the fact that they've had their lives so deeply affected by a genre.

And it's like, you know, what happens if a punk rocker falls in love with somebody who's comes from big band, you know, they have a really hard time communicating. And that was really a key for key production for the playoffs, and also in terms of our understanding and acceptance of the eclecticism of the American theater, that we wanted that place to be about good, not about a particular genre. We wanted to it to be about good work, and so we welcomed Bill Irwin and Sondheim was there very early on, and artists that came from whole, you know, Amanda Plummer and you know Emily Mann, and people that came from very different uh aesthetic, you know, viewpoints. And uh I'm very proud of that. That the La Jolla seems as an in you know institution to be capable of supporting uh a whole host of artists that may have completely contrasting styles, but to me that's the joy and achievement of the American theater.

[47:49] Jamie DuMont: Yeah.

[47:50] Des McAnuff: Well, on that I have to say thank you. There's nothing else to say about it. You summed it up. Thank you for coming down. I mean, I would I would I I think I can now say you're an institution.

[48:00] Jamie DuMont: Oh, I meant as taken as a company.

[48:03] Des McAnuff: Exactly.

[48:04] Jamie DuMont: We always do have one last question.

[48:05] Rob Russo: We do, yes.

[48:06] Jamie DuMont: Great. I think you answered it, but go ahead and ask it.

[48:08] Rob Russo: Well, yeah, um, you know, what is what is the show or experience that you had early on in your life that sort of hooked you on the theater?

[48:16] Des McAnuff: Oh my heavens. That that that's a really tough one. You know, there was a small theater uh in Toronto uh of and it was a very young uh theater scene, and I had decided, you know, I I'd written a couple of musicals by that point, and I was starting to write plays, but it was a theater called uh Toronto Free Theater, and they did a number of wonderful plays, and they would have one of the the director would direct the writer's work, and then the next play the writer would be directing the director's writing, and you know, it was just this fantastic company. And one of the plays they did was a kind of an Orton-esque farce called The End. And I I just remember thinking, you know, what a spectacular group of of you know artists, and I got commissioned by that theater not I was only 20 shortly after that.

And that was a real uh life changer, you know, is just seeing that play and then trying to work with those people. That that that changed, you know, uh everything for me. And and I still think about that group, you know, and I'm inspired by them.

[49:42] Jamie DuMont: Wonderful. Well, I think it's fair to say we're both inspired by you.

[49:45] Des McAnuff: Oh thank you so much for coming down and chatting with us.

[49:48] Jamie DuMont: Thank you.

[49:49] Des McAnuff: I really appreciate it.

[49:51] Jamie DuMont: I know you want to leave me, but I will use you go.

[49:57] Rob Russo: If I have a baby.

[50:12] Rob Russo: Rob here with you may be wondering. We just finished our conversation with Des McAnuff, who, in addition to his contributions to the theater as director and producer, served as artistic director of two major institutions, La Jolla Playhouse in California, as we talked about, and the Stratford Festival in Southern Ontario. While the Fabulous Invalid refers to Broadway, a secondary mission of this podcast, as we give a 360-degree view of the industry, is to highlight other theaters across America as well, from Signature Theater in Arlington, Virginia to the current theater in San Francisco. After all, great theater is happening everywhere, not just in New York and London. If you've never personally been, you've still likely heard of La Jolla Playhouse.

And you may be wondering about this celebrated regional outpost that builds itself as a place where artists and audiences come together to create what's new and next in American theater. Founded in 1947 by actors Gregory Peck, Dorothy McGuire, and Mel Ferrer, La Jolla Playhouse was created as a summer stock retreat for Hollywood luminaries to flex their stage acting muscles. So many actors working in Los Angeles longed to get back on a legitimate stage, which was strangely absent in the City of Angels. So Gregory Peck looked a little over 100 miles south to his hometown of La Jolla to create an outlet for their desire. With some seed money from producer David Selsnik, the troupe was born. In its original incarnation, greats like Vivian Vance, Groucho Marks, Ginger Rogers, Vincent Price, Eartha Kitt, and Eve Arden, among others, all made appearances in La Jolla's summer productions.

After over a decade of success, the company began to decline, though, and shuddered after Zsa Zsa Gabor's infamous performance in Blythe Spirit in 1964. Dreams of a new permanent theater, though, never died, despite an extended hiatus until 1982. That's when Des McAnuff stepped in to revive the company at its new home on the campus of UC San Diego in 1983, fulfilling the vision that Gregory Peck had imagined some 25 years prior of transitioning his little summer stock troupe into a serious permanent theatrical powerhouse on the West Coast. Under Des's leadership from 1983 to 1994, and again from 2001 to 2007, La Jolla became just that, fast emerging as a preeminent incubator for new and exciting work, developing dozens of plays and musicals, among them Big River, The Who's Tommy, and Jersey Boys, all directed by Des and all transferring to Broadway for successful runs.

In 1993, after only 10 years in its reconstituted form, La Jolla was awarded the prestigious Tony Award for Outstanding Regional Theater. Director Christopher Ashley took over when Des left in 2007, continuing his tradition of originating new work, including the hit musicals Memphis and Come From Away. Indeed, to date, La Jolla has mounted 101 world premieres, commissioned 52 new works, and sent 32 productions to Broadway, which have collectively earned a total of 38 Tony Awards. In the absence of a national theater or any serious federal support for the arts, regional theaters in America have become the places where plays and musicals are given the space and the resources that they need to develop. And La Jolla is an important star in that constellation.

[53:27] Rob Russo: Rob here, that's our show. Thanks for listening. You can hear us anytime on iTunes. The Fabulous Invalid is a production of OM etc. and the Fabulous Invalid LLC. Our theme music is by Lucky Chops. Today's episode was edited and engineered by Aaron Kaufman. Find us online at the FabulousInvalid.com and on social media at Fabulous Invalid. And on iTunes, Spotify, or wherever you find your podcasts. And be sure to tune in next Wednesday.