This transcript was automatically generated and might contain errors.

[0:10] Iyvon Edebiri: Y'all know y'all like that. Um hi guys, my name is Iyvon Edebiri.

[0:15] Eric Borlock: And I'm Eric Borlock. And welcome to another episode of The Parsnip Ship.

[0:27] Iyvon Edebiri: It's um actually our last official one of our season. So, like, yeah, we made it another season. It's great. Um, but it's not our like official officials. It's so much, so much smoother than last season. Last season, I think we got out four episodes, and that took us like a year and a half. And this year we like did it steadily over time, and this is our tenth episode of the season, I think. Yeah, and I think with every episode we learn something new. Yeah, there's always a new challenge. But things always come together because that's like the beauty and the magic and the fun of theater and what Eric and I do and why we love to interact with our audiences and our awesome musicians and our awesome actors and our awesome sound engineer and everyone who helps us every month to put this together.

So thank you for again being here and for sticking with us, our listeners. We're only gonna get better, bigger and better. Uh so for tonight we are at Cloud City again in Brooklyn, and we are hearing uh the play Broken by David Meyers. And tonight's episode is directed by Dina Epshteyn. And we are joined by our lovely cast, who are going to introduce themselves.

[1:57] Jared Bates: Hi, I'm Jared Bates. I'll be reading Kevin.

[2:00] Roger Miller: I'm Roger Miller. I'll be playing uh Officer Falco and the stage directions.

[2:06] Stephen Massicott: I'm Stephen Massicott. I'll be reading Dr. Palmer.

[2:10] Iyvon Edebiri: And we are joined by our lovely musical guest tonight, Andrew Lynch. And Andrew will take it away.

[2:20] ♪ Musical number: "The Hunger" — performed by Andrew Lynch ♪

[5:58] Iyvon Edebiri: Broken by David Meyers. The psychiatrist's office in a state-run prison, the present. The dingy office is bleak and institutional. There's a large desk in the center of the room with a worn leather chair behind it and a plastic chair in front. A framed diploma hangs on the wall, and a small refrigerator sits nearby. At rise, Dr. Palmer stands in the office. He's waiting for someone or something. Maybe he's pacing. Maybe he's nervous. Something's not right. A knock at the door. After a second, Palmer opens it, calm, collected.

[6:36] Dr. Palmer: Yes.

[6:40] Officer Falco: He's here. Bring him in. Move.

[6:43] Iyvon Edebiri: After a moment, Kevin shuffles into the office wearing handcuffs. His eyes are bloodshot. He looks drugged, angry, and withdrawn all at once. There's a bandage wrapped around his head.

[6:54] Officer Falco: I said move.

[6:56] Iyvon Edebiri: Falco pushes Kevin further into the office, hard, angry. Palmer goes to say something to Falco then stops himself. The three of them stand there. It's uncomfortable, tense. Palmer turns to Falco.

[7:09] Dr. Palmer: The handcuffs are supposed to be off.

[7:11] Officer Falco: What?

[7:12] Dr. Palmer: The handcuffs are supposed to be off. And no one told me that. Take them off, please.

[7:15] Officer Falco: That's not a good idea.

[7:16] Dr. Palmer: He'll be fine.

[7:18] Officer Falco: I'm not supposed to take them off.

[7:19] Dr. Palmer: Gordon said it was okay.

[7:21] Iyvon Edebiri: Falco looks at Palmer. Decides not to fight him. Falco goes to Kevin and takes the handcuffs off. Hard, like he's trying to hurt him. Kevin rubs his wrists.

[7:39] Officer Falco: Sit down.

[7:40] Iyvon Edebiri: Falco shoves Kevin down onto a chair. Kevin looks around the office. He stares at the framed diploma on the wall, the refrigerator, maybe something on a bookshelf. Palmer watches Kevin. Then he turns to Falco, gestures toward the door.

[7:54] Dr. Palmer: Thank you, officer.

[7:55] Officer Falco: This is a bad idea.

[7:58] Iyvon Edebiri: He raises the handcuffs.

[8:00] Officer Falco: I really don't think you'll be outside, right?

[8:08] Iyvon Edebiri: He goes to Kevin, grabs his shoulder.

[8:11] Officer Falco: I'm warning you, McFadden. You try anything.

[8:13] Dr. Palmer: Thank you, officer.

[8:14] Iyvon Edebiri: Falco gives Palmer a glare, then exits. Palmer closes the door.

[8:22] Dr. Palmer: It's good to see you, Kevin. After last night, I didn't think you'd come see me. But I'm glad you changed your mind.

[8:42] Dr. Palmer: Would you like something? I have soda. I know they don't let you have that.

[8:46] Iyvon Edebiri: Palmer goes to the refrigerator and takes out a soda can. Kevin stares at the can, a potential weapon.

[8:57] Dr. Palmer: Here, Kevin.

[8:57] Kevin McFadden: What'd you want it?

[9:02] Dr. Palmer: Kevin.

[9:06] Kevin McFadden: What is it?

[9:07] Dr. Palmer: You don't like soda?

[9:09] Kevin McFadden: Would you mind if I if I had one?

[9:11] Dr. Palmer: Palmer snaps the can open, starts drinking. You know, they design this stuff to get you addicted. They have scientists. That's all they do. Manipulate the chemicals, the sugar. But you don't drink it. That's smart. I could probably use your help. Get me off this stuff.

[9:37] Kevin McFadden: Dr. Saprerstein said you wouldn't talk to him either. Or Dr. Goldfarb. And when you wouldn't talk when I came to your cell last night.

[9:52] Dr. Palmer: That's fine. We don't have to talk. But since you asked the guards to bring you down here, I thought that you did want to talk. I know it's been hard. Three weeks, solitary, the isolation, the lack of contact. I I know you probably think that people hate you. But I meant what I said last night. I want to help you, Kevin. To listen. And it's just you and me off the books. They can't use it at your trial or I'm not even allowed to be doing this. You're not my patient. It's against protocol. But Sapristine, Goldfarb, I wouldn't talk to them either.

[10:49] Kevin McFadden: You don't trust me, I understand. But I'm not like them, Kevin.

[11:01] Dr. Palmer: So why did you come here? Why'd you ask to come see me if you didn't want to talk? Just to get out of solitary.

[11:10] Kevin McFadden: That's fine. We can sit here. Whatever you need.

[11:23] Dr. Palmer: The carbonation.

[11:26] Kevin McFadden: What?

[11:29] Dr. Palmer: The carbonation. Burns my lips.

[11:32] Kevin McFadden: Really? But I've never heard of that.

[11:36] Dr. Palmer: And this was when you were younger too?

[11:38] Iyvon Edebiri: Kevin nods.

[11:40] Dr. Palmer: Did that make it hard to fit in with.

[11:42] Kevin McFadden: Don't.

[11:43] Dr. Palmer: You're right.

[11:44] Iyvon Edebiri: Kevin looks away now and often. He has trouble making eye contact.

[11:51] Kevin McFadden: You know, uh I didn't fit in when I was growing up. It was fine when uh when I was younger. But then I just couldn't make friends. Never knew why. Is that how you felt? Your mom said that you talked to my mom?

[12:10] Dr. Palmer: A little. I called her last night to see if she—

[12:13] Kevin McFadden: Why did you call her?

[12:15] Dr. Palmer: I wanted to talk to her about you. About why—

[12:17] Kevin McFadden: What did she say?

[12:18] Dr. Palmer: That she still loves you.

[12:20] Kevin McFadden: Bullshit.

[12:21] Dr. Palmer: She does. She's worried about you.

[12:25] Kevin McFadden: If the gun had been a few inches to the left.

[12:30] Dr. Palmer: There were assholes.

[12:33] Kevin McFadden: What?

[12:34] Dr. Palmer: That's why I couldn't make friends. People were assholes.

[12:36] Kevin McFadden: Who?

[12:39] Dr. Palmer: Everyone.

[12:39] Kevin McFadden: I know, but it who exactly? Friends, girls. Everyone.

[12:43] Iyvon Edebiri: Oh. I thought you were just exaggerating.

[12:47] Kevin McFadden: You think this is funny?

[12:48] Dr. Palmer: Uh of course not.

[12:53] Kevin McFadden: You know, your mom said that was her favorite thing about you growing up. You're a smile.

[12:57] Dr. Palmer: Don't talk about my mom.

[12:59] Kevin McFadden: I only—

[12:59] Dr. Palmer: No, don't talk about my mom.

[13:06] Kevin McFadden: Look. I'm on your side, Kevin. Saperstein, Goldfarb, you're right. They want to let you rot.

[13:11] Kevin McFadden: And you don't?

[13:12] Dr. Palmer: No.

[13:13] Kevin McFadden: Why not?

[13:13] Dr. Palmer: We just lock people up. People who need help. People who are in pain. We throw them in jail, and bad things keep happening, and we never know why.

[13:21] Kevin McFadden: Because people are assholes. That's why. Aren't you listening? You think it's that easy? These guys in here, they kill people for a pair of sneakers.

[13:31] Dr. Palmer: Sneakers.

[13:35] Kevin McFadden: Not you. You didn't just wake up and shoot 17 people, right? You had a reason. Do you want to tell me what it was?

[13:48] Kevin McFadden: When I was ten.

[13:57] Kevin McFadden: I wouldn't give it to them, so one of them punched me in the face. My nose started bleeding. But I still wouldn't give them the ball, so they hit me again. And they dragged me into this hut on the playground.

[14:14] Dr. Palmer: And they took a stick and pulled down my shorts.

[14:19] Kevin McFadden: They raped you.

[14:24] Kevin McFadden: That's not funny.

[14:26] Dr. Palmer: That's what you want, right? Some stupid reason so you can go tell everyone why I did it? So they can go home and sleep at night?

[14:33] Kevin McFadden: What a load of crap. You come to my cell last night.

[14:38] Kevin McFadden: Say you're different. You care about me. And I thought, maybe. But you're just like that. I'm a fucking science experiment. A meal ticket, so you can write some goddamn book or get rich. Fuck you.

[14:53] Kevin stands up. I want to go back.

[14:56] Dr. Palmer: Wait, Kevin, wait. Hey, take me back.

[14:58] A knock at the door.

[14:59] Kevin McFadden: Wait.

[15:00] Kevin stops.

[15:01] Dr. Palmer: Mike. I was like you when I was a kid. Lonely, no friends.

[15:07] Another knock.

[15:08] Dr. Palmer: I built a bomb. I tried to blow up my school.

[15:12] Officer Falco bursts through the doorway, looks at them. What the fuck's going on?

[15:16] Kevin McFadden: Nothing. We're fine.

[15:17] Officer Falco: What did he do?

[15:18] Kevin McFadden: Nothing. We just—

[15:18] Officer Falco: You're dead, you little shit.

[15:22] Dr. Palmer: That's enough.

[15:24] Kevin McFadden: What?

[15:22] Dr. Palmer: I said that's enough. Don't you know what he did?

[15:26] Officer Falco: Why are you dead? Do I need to call and ask for someone else to come down here?

[15:30] Dr. Palmer: He said he wanted to go back. I heard him. Do you want to go back, Kevin?

[15:33] Kevin stares at Palmer for a moment, then makes a decision and sits back down in the chair.

[15:41] Kevin McFadden: Thank you, officer.

[15:42] Officer Falco backs out of the office.

[15:44] Dr. Palmer closes the door.

[15:48] Dr. Palmer: Is it true?

[15:50] Kevin McFadden: What?

[15:52] Dr. Palmer: You tried to blow up your school.

[15:55] Kevin McFadden: Yes.

[15:56] Dr. Palmer: Why didn't you?

[16:01] Kevin McFadden: My dad.

[16:03] Kevin McFadden: He figured it out. He stopped me. He helped me.

[16:08] Dr. Palmer: I can help you, Kevin.

[16:09] Kevin McFadden: My life is over.

[16:11] Dr. Palmer: You came down here, right? I'm talking to you. Why would we be here if we thought your life was over?

[16:17] Dr. Palmer: There's more to you than that person who walked into that mall.

[16:17] Dr. Palmer tries to take another sip of soda, but it's empty.

[16:23] Dr. Palmer: You mind if I have another one?

[16:25] Dr. Palmer goes to the refrigerator, takes out another soda.

[16:29] Dr. Palmer: Scientists are good.

[16:31] Kevin McFadden: Funny, right? Psychiatrist with an addictive personality.

[16:35] Dr. Palmer: That's why I never did drugs.

[16:38] Kevin McFadden: I don't do drugs.

[16:40] Dr. Palmer: Never at a party.

[16:42] Kevin McFadden: I didn't go to parties.

[16:43] Dr. Palmer: Why not?

[16:44] Kevin McFadden: No one invited me.

[16:45] Dr. Palmer: Not even at college?

[16:48] Kevin McFadden: I can mute it.

[16:49] Dr. Palmer: It was like a job.

[16:51] Kevin McFadden: Must have been hard to meet people that way.

[16:54] Dr. Palmer: Whatever. All I did was have sex and get drunk.

[16:58] Kevin McFadden: Did that bother you? That you never got invited to parties?

[17:01] Dr. Palmer: You know what? Something's wrong when I'm a loser because I don't get drunk and have sex with like twenty different girls.

[17:08] Kevin McFadden: That's what everyone said. I couldn't get girls because I didn't go to parties and wait till they got drunk.

[17:14] Dr. Palmer: What about Molly? She went out with you, right? And you didn't meet her that way.

[17:23] Kevin McFadden: Your mom said you really liked her.

[17:28] Dr. Palmer: Must have been hard to find someone who cared about, and then soda.

[17:39] Dr. Palmer: What do you drink?

[17:40] Kevin McFadden: I don't know. Coffee.

[17:42] Dr. Palmer: I hate coffee.

[17:42] Kevin McFadden: Well, what do you like? Tea, juice?

[17:44] Dr. Palmer: Juice? What do you think? I'm like five years old? That I'm a pathetic little kid who still drinks juice?

[17:50] Kevin McFadden: I didn't mean it that way.

[17:51] Dr. Palmer: How did you mean it?

[17:52] Kevin McFadden: I was just trying to talk to you.

[17:53] Dr. Palmer: No, who the hell drinks juice?

[17:54] Kevin McFadden: I do.

[17:55] Dr. Palmer points to the bandage on Kevin's head. Is your head healing okay?

[18:02] Dr. Palmer: It was just a graze, right?

[18:04] Kevin McFadden: I don't know.

[18:05] Dr. Palmer: What do the doctors say?

[18:06] Kevin McFadden: They don't talk to me. They just come in and change the bandage.

[18:11] Dr. Palmer: Well, I bet you that you'll heal fast. Everyone I talked to said you're driven.

[18:18] Kevin McFadden: Who's everyone?

[18:19] Dr. Palmer: Your mom, your friends.

[18:20] Kevin McFadden: What friends?

[18:21] Dr. Palmer: Your writing teacher? Mike? Your mom gave me his number. He sent me your stories. They're good. Different than I thought they'd be, but—

[18:31] Kevin McFadden: Why?

[18:31] Dr. Palmer: I don't know. They're very hopeful.

[18:35] Kevin McFadden: Don't think I'm hopeful?

[18:36] Dr. Palmer: I don't know. That's what I'm trying to figure out.

[18:40] Dr. Palmer: Have you ever done this before?

[18:42] Kevin McFadden: Talk to someone?

[18:45] Kevin McFadden: My mom took me once, dad, to help me figure out why I was having trouble making friends.

[18:51] Dr. Palmer: And you didn't find it helpful?

[18:52] Kevin McFadden: I mean, he kept asking what I was doing wrong, like it was my fault.

[18:56] Dr. Palmer: And you never went back or tried a different therapist?

[18:58] Kevin McFadden: I mean, it's pathetic. The only way someone will talk to me is if I pay them.

[19:02] Dr. Palmer: You're not paying me.

[19:04] Kevin McFadden: Someone is.

[19:07] Dr. Palmer: You want some water? I've got some in—

[19:08] Kevin McFadden: No.

[19:12] Dr. Palmer: So how did you learn about the carbonation that you were allergic to it?

[19:19] Kevin McFadden: I was on this field trip for school. We stopped to eat at a mall. They had sparkling water. I thought it was like water. I was sitting next to this girl that I liked, and I took a sip and spit it out all over her.

[19:33] Kevin McFadden: People came up to me for like the rest of the year and they spit their drinks on me. I told my mom, and she figured out it was the carbonation.

[19:43] Dr. Palmer: You know, why do you guys think that everything is about our childhood?

[19:46] Kevin McFadden: Did someone else ask you about your childhood?

[19:48] Dr. Palmer: Goldfarb?

[19:49] Kevin McFadden: Saperstein.

[19:50] Dr. Palmer: I thought you didn't talk to them.

[19:52] Kevin McFadden: I didn't.

[19:54] Kevin McFadden: But they made me sit there and listen to the same stupid questions about childhood trauma and—

[19:54] Dr. Palmer pulls out a piece of paper from his desk. Standardized forms.

[20:05] Dr. Palmer: They think we can fit people onto a piece of paper.

[20:08] Kevin McFadden: Isn't that what you're trying to do?

[20:10] Dr. Palmer tears the form in half, tosses it in the trash. Believe me, I don't need some Ivy League asshole.

[20:16] Kevin McFadden: Like you what?

[20:18] Kevin gestures to the diploma on the wall. You went to Harvard, right?

[20:22] Dr. Palmer: I did.

[20:23] Kevin McFadden: So how come you're here? How come you're not the one writing those forms?

[20:28] Dr. Palmer: Because I care about people.

[20:30] Kevin McFadden: And they don't?

[20:31] Dr. Palmer: I wanted to work with patients.

[20:33] Kevin McFadden: With prisoners?

[20:34] Dr. Palmer: Yes.

[20:35] Kevin McFadden: Why?

[20:35] Dr. Palmer: To help them?

[20:37] Kevin McFadden: Come on. You don't think that I could want to help you?

[20:39] Kevin McFadden: What happened? Lawsuit? One of your patients blow their brains out? Blow up their school?

[20:46] Dr. Palmer: Maybe this was a bad idea.

[20:47] Dr. Palmer stands up. Why don't you go back to your cell?

[20:50] Kevin McFadden: Wait.

[20:51] Dr. Palmer: Nice meeting you, Kevin.

[20:53] Dr. Palmer starts walking toward the door.

[20:55] Kevin McFadden: Wait.

[20:55] Kevin McFadden: Oh, okay. I I did I didn't mean to—

[20:55] Dr. Palmer reaches for the doorknob. Why do I always fuck things up?

[21:00] Kevin McFadden: I can't even kill myself, right?

[21:00] Dr. Palmer lets go of the door.

[21:06] Dr. Palmer: Why did you come down here, Kevin?

[21:09] Kevin McFadden: I I don't know. I I just want someone to help me.

[21:13] Dr. Palmer: To help you what?

[21:16] Kevin McFadden: Not be so fucked up.

[21:18] Dr. Palmer: That's it?

[21:19] Kevin McFadden: I I don't know.

[21:21] Kevin McFadden: Why everything is so hard? I can't be normal.

[21:25] Dr. Palmer: Why you did it?

[21:26] Kevin McFadden: I I didn't want to.

[21:28] Dr. Palmer: Then why did you?

[21:29] Kevin McFadden: They made me.

[21:30] Kevin McFadden: I was a good person and they—

[21:30] Dr. Palmer: Who? Who made you? Who made you walk into that mall? Who put the gun in your hand?

[21:38] Dr. Palmer: The first step is to take responsibility for what you've done to a chance to do it.

[21:42] Kevin McFadden: Can we talk about something else first?

[21:49] Dr. Palmer: What do you want to talk about?

[21:51] Kevin McFadden: I don't know. Why everything sucks?

[21:54] Dr. Palmer: Is that really why you came to see me, Kevin?

[21:57] Kevin McFadden: I I don't know.

[21:59] Dr. Palmer: Like what do you talk about with your friends?

[22:04] Kevin McFadden: Movies?

[22:05] Dr. Palmer: TV.

[22:05] Kevin McFadden: I hate that stuff.

[22:07] Dr. Palmer: Okay, well, what do you like?

[22:10] Kevin McFadden: I don't know. Ready, you read any good books lately? You l you like books, right?

[22:14] Kevin McFadden: I guess.

[22:16] Dr. Palmer: I don't know, like do you live around here?

[22:20] Kevin McFadden: I do.

[22:21] Dr. Palmer: In a house or a white picket fence, backyard?

[22:25] Kevin McFadden: How long have you lived there?

[22:26] Dr. Palmer: I don't think we should get into that.

[22:28] Kevin McFadden: Why not?

[22:28] Dr. Palmer: I'm just asking you questions.

[22:29] Dr. Palmer: I'm not supposed to share things about my personal life. It's not professional.

[22:32] Kevin McFadden: Oh, so telling me you tried to blow up your school. Was that not professional?

[22:35] Dr. Palmer: Well, I've clearly broken one boundary. I probably shouldn't do it again.

[22:42] Kevin McFadden: So what do you want to talk about?

[22:45] Dr. Palmer: Whatever you like.

[22:46] Kevin McFadden: But what about the weather?

[22:49] Dr. Palmer: Is it getting warmer out?

[22:50] Kevin McFadden: A little.

[22:51] Dr. Palmer: They won't take me outside.

[22:53] Kevin McFadden: They say it's not safe with the other prisoners.

[22:56] Dr. Palmer: I hate winter.

[22:58] Kevin McFadden: Always wanted to live someplace warm.

[23:00] Dr. Palmer: We've got that in common.

[23:02] Kevin McFadden: I like wearing shorts.

[23:04] Dr. Palmer: I hate pants.

[23:05] Kevin McFadden: That's uh interesting.

[23:07] Dr. Palmer: They won't let me wear shorts here.

[23:10] Kevin McFadden: But it's always warm.

[23:11] Dr. Palmer: I like that.

[23:14] Kevin McFadden: I I don't know, can can you just like talk about something, please?

[23:14] Dr. Palmer opens a drawer and pulls out a stack of papers.

[23:23] Dr. Palmer: How about your stories? Do you want to tell me about them?

[23:30] Kevin McFadden: Well, this one. Um blood bond.

[23:32] Dr. Palmer: What about it?

[23:33] Kevin McFadden: Well, there's two characters. One needs a kidney and his friend's a match.

[23:37] Kevin McFadden: His best friend. Right, his best friend's a match. Uh but he has blood disease, so the doctors tell him not to donate the kidney, that he could die during the operation.

[23:45] Kevin McFadden: But he does it anyway. He gives the kidney, and he dies.

[23:50] Dr. Palmer: Why did you choose that ending?

[23:52] Kevin McFadden: It was his friend. He'd do anything for him.

[23:54] Dr. Palmer: But he was willing to die, right? He took the risk.

[23:57] Kevin McFadden: Why wasn't that enough?

[23:58] Dr. Palmer: I I don't know. That's what friends do.

[24:01] Dr. Palmer: Okay. What about this one?

[24:03] Kevin McFadden: Um Sunflower.

[24:05] Kevin McFadden: Mallory runs off with a Wall Street banker, but then she comes back to Calvin.

[24:11] Dr. Palmer: Why did you choose a happy ending here?

[24:13] Kevin McFadden: Who wants to read a story where the girl leaves?

[24:16] Dr. Palmer: That's life.

[24:17] Kevin McFadden: But if she comes back, if she loves him, uh that can only happen in a story.

[24:22] Dr. Palmer: Was that what you wanted? For Molly to come back?

[24:32] Kevin McFadden: So um how did you get started writing?

[24:37] Kevin McFadden: I don't know. I read a lot growing up.

[24:41] Kevin McFadden: That was my favorite thing, and then these stories just started to come to me.

[24:46] Kevin McFadden: And I thought, I I don't know. That if I was a writer, things would be different.

[24:51] Dr. Palmer: How do you mean?

[24:52] Kevin McFadden: I'd be happy.

[24:53] Dr. Palmer: Were you?

[24:54] Kevin McFadden: No.

[24:55] Kevin McFadden: I mean, I realized pretty soon that wasn't gonna happen.

[24:57] Dr. Palmer: Why not?

[24:58] Kevin McFadden: Because of me.

[25:00] Dr. Palmer: So why did you keep writing?

[25:02] Kevin McFadden: It was the only thing I liked.

[25:05] Kevin McFadden: I mean, writing was the best and and the worst thing that happened to me.

[25:08] Kevin McFadden: I found this thing that I love to do, but then no one would let me do it.

[25:11] Dr. Palmer: Why wouldn't they let you do it?

[25:13] Kevin McFadden: Because they wouldn't take my stuff.

[25:15] Dr. Palmer: Your mom said you spent a lot of time writing it. That must have made it hard to meet people.

[25:20] Kevin McFadden: It was hard because no one liked me.

[25:22] Dr. Palmer: Why didn't they like you?

[25:23] Kevin McFadden: I don't know.

[25:24] Kevin McFadden: Ask do you did you ever try to change how you uh I know you don't feel it was something you did.

[25:28] Kevin McFadden: It wasn't something I did. I was so nice.

[25:33] Kevin McFadden: Even when I was a kid, I used to buy people candy and stuff, and then I went out with the with girls, I'd bring them flowers and pay for everything, and then they'd go out with these guys who treated them like shit.

[25:43] Dr. Palmer: Did you ever try to see things from their perspective?

[25:46] Dr. Palmer: Like maybe they thought you were trying too hard.

[25:48] Kevin McFadden: How can you try too hard to be nice to people?

[25:50] Dr. Palmer: Maybe they didn't understand why you were being nice to them.

[25:52] Kevin McFadden: But because I wanted friends. I told them that, and no one cared.

[25:57] Kevin McFadden: I was a good person. I was nice to everyone, and they just they shit all over me.

[26:02] Dr. Palmer: They spit their drinks on you.

[26:03] Kevin McFadden: I was one thing. My whole life, people ignored me.

[26:06] Dr. Palmer: No one ever asked me to do anything.

[26:09] Kevin McFadden: Did you ask them?

[26:10] Dr. Palmer: No.

[26:11] Kevin McFadden: Why not?

[26:11] Dr. Palmer: It's pathetic to go around and and beg people to hang out.

[26:16] Kevin McFadden: Maybe they just—

[26:19] Kevin McFadden: I saw on Facebook and the internet they were always doing things, always asking people to do things, to go to the movies or a restaurant to go out and no one ever asked me.

[26:30] Dr. Palmer: Why do you think that is?

[26:32] Kevin McFadden: I don't know.

[26:34] Kevin McFadden: I've asked myself that my whole life.

[26:37] Kevin McFadden: What's wrong with me?

[26:40] Kevin McFadden: I mean, everyone hates me now.

[26:42] Kevin McFadden: I I get that.

[26:44] Kevin McFadden: And they'll say that's why they didn't like me before, but it's not.

[26:47] Kevin McFadden: I was normal. I was a good person.

[26:50] Kevin McFadden: And they just beat me down and until what?

[26:54] Kevin closes his eyes in impasse.

[26:54] Dr. Palmer mows around the room a bit.

[27:00] Kevin looks at the empty soda can.

[27:02] Kevin McFadden: Maybe he rubs his wrists.

[27:04] Dr. Palmer comes back to the desk, starts looking through the stories again.

[27:10] Dr. Palmer: Sunflower. That's a great title.

[27:15] Dr. Palmer: Do you have a favorite story?

[27:20] Kevin McFadden: The book of Jeb.

[27:21] Dr. Palmer: Which one is that?

[27:22] Kevin McFadden: About the guy like me.

[27:24] Kevin McFadden: Who kills himself?

[27:26] Dr. Palmer: I don't have that one.

[27:29] Kevin McFadden: Oh.

[27:30] Kevin McFadden: Mike said he sent all of them.

[27:32] Kevin McFadden: I I wrote it a few years ago. Maybe I didn't give it to him.

[27:34] Dr. Palmer: How is he like you?

[27:37] Kevin McFadden: Jeb?

[27:38] Kevin McFadden: I don't know. He lived at home. Everything sucked.

[27:42] Dr. Palmer: Were you writing about yourself?

[27:43] Kevin McFadden: Are you a writer?

[27:45] Dr. Palmer: I published a few articles.

[27:47] Kevin McFadden: No, I mean a real writer. Stories.

[27:50] Dr. Palmer shakes his head. A writer always writes about himself.

[27:54] Dr. Palmer: No matter what it's about, the characters, they're always the writer, even the bad ones.

[28:00] Kevin McFadden: But they never see themselves that way.

[28:02] Dr. Palmer: Even if they do something horrible, they always have a reason.

[28:05] Kevin McFadden: Was Jeb a bad person?

[28:07] Dr. Palmer: No, he just.

[28:08] Dr. Palmer: He was a painter. And he tried so hard, and it never worked out.

[28:13] Dr. Palmer: And he had no friends, no family.

[28:15] Kevin McFadden: You said he lived at home?

[28:16] Dr. Palmer: With his mom.

[28:17] Kevin McFadden: And that didn't count?

[28:18] Dr. Palmer: I mean, it was just her.

[28:20] Dr. Palmer: And when she died, there'd be no one to—

[28:20] Kevin McFadden: Did he date anyone like Molly and like a Molly?

[28:25] Dr. Palmer: Or did Jeb kill other people too?

[28:29] Kevin McFadden: No.

[28:29] Dr. Palmer: He he just really wanted to be a painter.

[28:34] Dr. Palmer: And then one day he finally realized it wasn't going to happen, and he looked around and he had nothing.

[28:40] Dr. Palmer: His whole life was a total waste.

[28:42] Kevin McFadden: So he killed himself.

[28:45] Dr. Palmer: Was he your age?

[28:47] Kevin McFadden: No, he was old, like 50.

[28:50] Dr. Palmer: Why did he wait so long?

[28:52] Kevin McFadden: I don't know.

[28:53] Kevin McFadden: He hoped things would get better.

[28:56] Dr. Palmer: And he was a good guy, too.

[28:58] Kevin McFadden: He worked hard, followed the rules.

[29:00] Dr. Palmer: Jeb or you?

[29:02] Kevin McFadden: Jeb.

[29:03] Kevin McFadden: That was part of the story. That you can do everything right, everything you're supposed to, and and things still don't work out.

[29:13] Dr. Palmer: So how did Jeb commit suicide?

[29:16] Kevin McFadden: He shot himself.

[29:17] Kevin McFadden: At a mall?

[29:18] Dr. Palmer: At the World Series.

[29:20] Kevin McFadden: Wow.

[29:22] Dr. Palmer: That's um, he ran onto the field.

[29:26] Dr. Palmer: He had to cancel the game.

[29:28] Kevin McFadden: Why did he choose such a public place?

[29:30] Dr. Palmer: I don't, I don't know.

[29:32] Kevin McFadden: I just made it up.

[29:33] Dr. Palmer: So everyone wanted to see it?

[29:34] Kevin McFadden: No.

[29:35] Dr. Palmer: So he'd be famous?

[29:36] Kevin McFadden: He wanted to be famous for his painting.

[29:38] Dr. Palmer: But he couldn't write, so maybe this was the next best thing.

[29:40] Kevin McFadden: No.

[29:42] Dr. Palmer: He wanted a way out.

[29:43] Kevin McFadden: And then why didn't he just kill himself?

[29:45] Dr. Palmer: He did.

[29:46] Kevin McFadden: But if he wanted a way out, he could have killed himself right then.

[29:50] Dr. Palmer: So why the World Series?

[29:52] Kevin McFadden: Because he wanted people to see him, to make them pay attention, to make them sorry for what they did.

[29:58] Dr. Palmer: How did your dad stop you?

[30:00] Kevin McFadden: What?

[30:02] Dr. Palmer: From blowing up the school. How did he stop you?

[30:06] Kevin McFadden: He was paying attention.

[30:08] Dr. Palmer: He figured it out.

[30:09] Kevin McFadden: How?

[30:11] Dr. Palmer: He was always there.

[30:13] Dr. Palmer: We did things together. He just knew.

[30:17] Kevin McFadden: When did you choose the bomb?

[30:19] Dr. Palmer: It seemed like the easiest thing.

[30:23] Kevin McFadden: Did you finish it?

[30:24] Dr. Palmer: No.

[30:25] Kevin McFadden: I had the timer and some wires, but how did you know how to make it?

[30:29] Dr. Palmer: I found the plans online. I mean, on a microfilm off the library, whatever we had back then.

[30:35] Kevin McFadden: Is that why Jeb chose the World Series? So people would... Did Harvard know?

[30:40] Dr. Palmer: That you tried to blow up your school?

[30:42] Kevin McFadden: No.

[30:43] Dr. Palmer: My dad stopped me and so he stopped you and you were cured?

[30:47] Kevin McFadden: Yeah.

[30:47] Dr. Palmer: Like just like that?

[30:48] Kevin McFadden: He took me to therapy every day.

[30:51] Dr. Palmer: He sat with me. He talked to me about why I felt so sad.

[30:55] Kevin McFadden: Why did you?

[30:57] Dr. Palmer: I thought that everyone was against me. That I didn't have any friends or people who cared.

[31:04] Kevin McFadden: But he helped me to see that a lot of that was in my mind. That people love me, that my dad loved me.

[31:11] Dr. Palmer: That's a pretty big switch. Trying to blow up your school to Harvard.

[31:15] Kevin McFadden: It is.

[31:16] Dr. Palmer: Luckily you had your dad.

[31:19] Kevin McFadden: Did you like it?

[31:21] Dr. Palmer: Harvard?

[31:22] Kevin McFadden: It was okay.

[31:23] Dr. Palmer: Was everyone smart?

[31:24] Kevin McFadden: Not really. I thought of applying, but we couldn't afford it.

[31:28] Dr. Palmer: Your mom said you got a scholarship.

[31:30] Kevin McFadden: To state school.

[31:31] Dr. Palmer: Well, that's still... so why didn't you like it?

[31:34] Kevin McFadden: It was really cold. Couldn't wear shorts.

[31:38] Dr. Palmer: That's it.

[31:40] Kevin McFadden: It was all about grades and making money. No one even cared about the patients.

[31:46] Dr. Palmer: So why'd you stay?

[31:47] Kevin McFadden: Was Harvard. I thought if I was successful, if I was famous.

[31:51] Dr. Palmer: Is that how Jeb felt? That things would be different if he was famous?

[31:55] Kevin McFadden: No. I told you he wanted to be a painter, but no one would let him.

[31:59] Dr. Palmer: Why did other people have to let him paint? Why couldn't he just do it himself?

[32:03] Kevin McFadden: He wanted to be a real one to make his living that way. And no one would ever hire him or take his writing.

[32:08] Dr. Palmer: But people took your writing.

[32:10] Kevin McFadden: No, they didn't.

[32:11] Dr. Palmer: Your mom said that a journal accepted your...

[32:11] Kevin McFadden: That was nothing. It was a stupid website, and that was it.

[32:17] Dr. Palmer: One thing five years.

[32:20] Kevin McFadden: It wasn't right away. If you don't get anything in five years, then...

[32:21] Dr. Palmer: But you got something. You got a story published. A lot of people never even get that.

[32:26] Kevin McFadden: No. There are thousands of authors. That's all they have to do.

[32:30] Dr. Palmer: Right.

[32:33] Kevin McFadden: And people read their stories and pay them. People make their living that way, not some bullshit thing in their spare time.

[32:39] Dr. Palmer: But no one wanted Jeb's paintings, right?

[32:41] Kevin McFadden: Right.

[32:42] Dr. Palmer: What about after the World Series? Did they want them then?

[32:44] Kevin McFadden: That's not why he did it.

[32:47] Dr. Palmer: But he knew it would happen, that he'd finally get that recognition.

[32:50] Kevin McFadden: No, that's not... that's... you don't think that was part of it?

[32:52] Dr. Palmer: That he killed himself?

[32:53] Kevin McFadden: Everyone would see his paintings, what they missed out on, that they'd be sorry for mistreating him, for ignoring him.

[32:59] Dr. Palmer: It was the World Series. You'd think anyone there ever read a story.

[33:03] Kevin McFadden: I thought he was a painter.

[33:05] Dr. Palmer: He was. World Series, huh?

[33:20] Kevin McFadden: Are you a baseball fan?

[33:22] Dr. Palmer: I am.

[33:24] Kevin McFadden: Big one.

[33:25] Dr. Palmer: That was our family thing. Me, my father, my... I loved going to those games.

[33:33] Kevin McFadden: You know, I actually went to the World Series once.

[33:39] Dr. Palmer: Kevin, do you want to ask me about it?

[33:44] Kevin McFadden: Not really.

[33:45] Dr. Palmer: That's how you get to know someone, by talking about what they're interested in, even if you're not interested in yourself.

[33:51] Kevin McFadden: I hate sports.

[33:54] Dr. Palmer: What?

[33:55] Kevin McFadden: You asked me if I wanted to.

[33:57] Dr. Palmer: I know, but that's hurtful. Don't you see that?

[33:59] Kevin McFadden: If I said writing sucks...

[34:01] Dr. Palmer: That's not the same.

[34:03] Kevin McFadden: I mean, sports are everything that's wrong with this country. I mean, there's horrible things going on in the world. No one even cares.

[34:09] Dr. Palmer: The news is all about football and celebrities and sports.

[34:13] Kevin McFadden: And people are dying. People are suffering, and everyone just wants to watch TV and go online.

[34:18] Dr. Palmer: But didn't you contribute to that suffering by...?

[34:21] Kevin McFadden: No.

[34:21] Dr. Palmer: One even reads any more poets.

[34:25] Kevin McFadden: Poetry? That's already dead.

[34:26] Dr. Palmer: And books are probably next. The whole country is decaying right before our eyes, and everyone just wants to watch sports and live through these 20-year-olds because their lives are so pointless.

[34:38] Kevin McFadden: And people like me who care about this stuff, who care about other people, we're the losers. We're the ones with no friends.

[34:47] Dr. Palmer: I mean, what kind of fucked up place is that?

[34:53] Kevin McFadden: And you said Jeb didn't have many friends, right?

[34:57] Dr. Palmer: You think maybe that was because he was so angry? That he thought everyone had wronged him somehow?

[35:03] Kevin McFadden: They did.

[35:03] Dr. Palmer: Well, what if some of them didn't? What if the problem was his perspective? How he saw things?

[35:07] Kevin McFadden: No, that's not what I'm saying.

[35:10] Dr. Palmer: Then why couldn't he make friends?

[35:12] Kevin McFadden: I don't know.

[35:13] Dr. Palmer: But you're the author, right? Can't you get inside his head?

[35:17] Kevin McFadden: Maybe he tried too hard. Like you said, and he was honest. He said what he felt. He wasn't mean to people, but he just like... he was honest.

[35:26] Dr. Palmer: Did he ever try to change his behavior?

[35:28] Kevin McFadden: All the time. He tried to do be what people wanted, like upbeat, or he wouldn't say what he thought, but it didn't matter. He couldn't fit in.

[35:36] Dr. Palmer: Did Jeb think about hurting anyone else at the World Series?

[35:40] Kevin McFadden: Why would he hurt them?

[35:41] Dr. Palmer: Weren't they responsible for what had happened to him?

[35:43] Kevin McFadden: He didn't even know them.

[35:45] Dr. Palmer: But they were part of that society, right? That valued sports, that rejected him, that wouldn't let him paint. So wasn't it their fault?

[35:50] Kevin McFadden: Maybe.

[35:54] Dr. Palmer: So why didn't he do something about it?

[35:57] Kevin McFadden: Because it was wrong.

[35:59] Dr. Palmer: So he knew it was wrong.

[36:00] Kevin McFadden: I told... I told you he was a good person. He didn't want to hurt them. He didn't want to hurt anyone.

[36:06] Dr. Palmer: But he didn't hurt them, right? Just himself, because he knew it was wrong.

[36:10] Kevin McFadden: Did you know it was wrong?

[36:13] Dr. Palmer: Was this your first job after Harvard?

[36:17] Kevin McFadden: No.

[36:17] Dr. Palmer: What did you do?

[36:19] Kevin McFadden: I know what you're trying to do, Kevin.

[36:21] Dr. Palmer: What?

[36:21] Kevin McFadden: You're trying to deflect attention.

[36:23] Dr. Palmer: Why can't I ask questions?

[36:24] Kevin McFadden: You keep pushing me and asking me.

[36:26] Dr. Palmer: You came here to see me.

[36:28] Kevin McFadden: Well, maybe I shouldn't have.

[36:30] Dr. Palmer: Wait. If you're just gonna use me.

[36:32] Kevin McFadden: Wait, what did you do after Harvard?

[36:35] Dr. Palmer: I had my own practice.

[36:38] Kevin McFadden: Where?

[36:39] Dr. Palmer: California.

[36:40] Kevin McFadden: What? Like LA?

[36:41] Dr. Palmer: Actually, yes.

[36:44] Kevin McFadden: I thought you wanted to help people.

[36:46] Dr. Palmer: Oh, people there need help too.

[36:48] Kevin McFadden: Yeah, like how to spend all their money and get lazy.

[36:51] Dr. Palmer: Being rich doesn't make you happy.

[36:52] Kevin McFadden: Bullshit.

[36:53] Dr. Palmer: Then why are we the most oppressed country in the world? If being rich makes you happy, then why are so many people here unhappy?

[37:00] Kevin McFadden: I don't know.

[37:01] Dr. Palmer: Because our lives are so good. Because we have time to think about these things.

[37:06] Kevin McFadden: *shakes his head*

[37:08] Dr. Palmer: Would being an author make you happy?

[37:10] Kevin McFadden: A real author?

[37:11] Dr. Palmer: I guess.

[37:12] Kevin McFadden: But you can't buy that, right?

[37:13] Dr. Palmer: I'd have more time to write. I wouldn't have to have some shitty job.

[37:17] Kevin McFadden: Like your job at the phone company.

[37:19] Dr. Palmer: Yeah.

[37:20] Kevin McFadden: But you quit, right? You picked up and quit.

[37:23] Dr. Palmer: You had all day to write. No matter how much money you had, you couldn't be an author unless someone else took your writing.

[37:29] Kevin McFadden: I could have published my own book.

[37:30] Dr. Palmer: So why didn't you do that? Why didn't you go make money and publish your own book?

[37:34] Kevin McFadden: Because then I wouldn't have the time to write.

[37:37] Dr. Palmer: Well, when you were older, you could have...

[37:37] Kevin McFadden: I d... and what if I got to buy a bus tomorrow? Then I would have worked at a shitty job for nothing.

[37:45] Dr. Palmer: I'm a writer. I should be spending my time writing, not selling phones. Not something anyone can do.

[37:51] Kevin McFadden: Then why didn't you keep writing instead of going to the mall? You could have kept writing and trying to...

[37:53] Dr. Palmer: It wasn't gonna happen.

[37:56] Kevin McFadden: You could have kept writing and gotten better, and maybe in a few years more people would have wanted to look at your...

[37:56] Dr. Palmer: Everyone just thought I was a shitty writer.

[38:03] Kevin McFadden: If everyone keeps rejecting you, that's what it means.

[38:15] Dr. Palmer: Pretty much.

[38:16] Kevin McFadden: And you think that if you were a writer, all your problems would have gone away? That if you had gotten published, if you had made a living at it, that you'd still be happy without friends or a family?

[38:25] Dr. Palmer: I would have had them if I...

[38:25] Kevin McFadden: You think you'd have friends because you were a writer? Real friends? Or that someone would love you?

[38:33] Dr. Palmer: Maybe someone would have married you, but they wouldn't have loved you. Not like Molly, not like you wanted.

[38:39] Kevin McFadden: Don't you think that if you had those things, you would have been happy even if you couldn't write?

[38:45] Dr. Palmer: Is that why you're so happy?

[38:46] Kevin McFadden: What?

[38:47] Dr. Palmer: Your family? Picket fence. Backyard. You have a wife? Kids?

[38:53] Kevin McFadden: I don't think that we should have a chance.

[38:54] Dr. Palmer: Why not?

[38:54] Kevin McFadden: There are boundaries here.

[38:56] Dr. Palmer: Really? Like coming to my cell last night and begging me to see you, talking to me while I'm not your patient, telling me you tried to blow up your school. That's enough.

[39:07] Kevin McFadden: You want me to spill my guts out to you, but you're not even...

[39:07] Dr. Palmer: I don't have a family, it's just me.

[39:13] Kevin McFadden: In your big fucking house?

[39:14] Dr. Palmer: Stop lying to me.

[39:14] Kevin McFadden: I'm not lying to you. I'm alone, Kevin, just like you.

[39:16] Dr. Palmer: Yeah, why? If having friends, having a family, if that's what makes people happy, if that's what matters, then why don't you have a chance?

[39:23] Kevin McFadden: If you're so smart, if everyone likes you, then why couldn't you get married or not?

[39:27] Dr. Palmer: That's enough.

[39:27] Kevin McFadden: Why does your life suck? What the fuck's wrong with you?

[39:30] Dr. Palmer: You said stop it.

[39:31] *A knock at the door.*

[39:32] Dr. Palmer: We're fine.

[39:33] *Another knock.*

[39:34] Dr. Palmer: I said we're fine.

[39:36] Dr. Palmer: *gets up, moves around the office.*

[39:52] Dr. Palmer: I'm sorry.

[39:54] Dr. Palmer: I shouldn't have.

[40:10] Dr. Palmer: *goes to the refrigerator, takes out a water, tries to give it to Kevin.*

[40:16] Dr. Palmer: Kevin, please, I...

[40:16] Kevin McFadden: *doesn't take the water.*

[40:24] Dr. Palmer: You know, your mom. I meant that. She seems... she really loves you, Kevin. I know you think she doesn't, but she does.

[40:37] Dr. Palmer: She said that you wouldn't see her when she tried to visit.

[40:40] Kevin McFadden: Why not?

[40:43] Dr. Palmer: I can see you care about her. Why won't you let her see you?

[40:51] Kevin McFadden: I almost stopped. Before I bought the bullets, I just sat in the car thinking what it would do to her. She was the best mom. She would have done anything for me.

[41:04] Kevin McFadden: When I was 10, there was this action figure I wanted more than anything. She took me to all the toy stores, but they didn't have it. I cried all night. My dad yelled at me, said he was gonna take off his belt.

[41:18] Kevin McFadden: He never did. He just threatened. The next day, when I came home from school, my mom told me to look in my room. She wrapped it with a bow. Wasn't my birthday or anything. She just wanted me to have it. So she went to... she went to like a million stores.

[41:36] Dr. Palmer: Sounds like she really loved you.

[41:38] Kevin McFadden: Yeah, but what?

[41:40] Dr. Palmer: I don't know. She like babied me. And she made me feel like I could do anything. If I worked hard, if I was a good person, I would get what I wanted.

[41:50] Kevin McFadden: So I grew up and I wanted all these things. But I...

[41:52] Dr. Palmer: So it's her fault.

[41:54] Kevin McFadden: No, I told you. She was the only reason I almost stopped.

[41:57] Dr. Palmer: But you didn't stop. You went into that mall.

[41:59] Kevin McFadden: And it... it wasn't just her. Everyone said that. If you work hard, if you try hard, you'll get what you want. And then they never think what's gonna happen to all the people who want it and try hard and can't get it, who can't be writers or fall in love or make money.

[42:16] Dr. Palmer: I mean, that's what everyone says we're supposed to have in movies and TV. You tell people they're only successful if they get all these things, and then you create a place where most of them never can. What kind of world is that?

[42:29] Dr. Palmer: Why didn't she see how upset you were? How lonely?

[42:32] Kevin McFadden: She did.

[42:33] Dr. Palmer: Then why didn't she do anything? Why didn't she try to help you?

[42:36] Kevin McFadden: She did try to help me. She talked to me, she took me to a therapist, she bought me things, she tried to help me make friends.

[42:43] Dr. Palmer: If she was really there, if she was really paying attention, she would have.

[42:46] Kevin McFadden: It didn't matter.

[42:47] Dr. Palmer: Why?

[42:47] Kevin McFadden: But because she wasn't the one treating me like shit and rejecting me and turning me down. She couldn't give me those things, no matter how much she's...

[42:57] Dr. Palmer: She did ask all the time, and I lied. I told her I was fine, I was happy, that I never hurt anyone.

[43:07] Kevin McFadden: She believed me. I never thought she would, but she did. Every single time.

[43:13] Dr. Palmer: Why?

[43:15] Kevin McFadden: Because she wanted to. She had to.

[43:20] Dr. Palmer: If you knew it was wrong. If your mom loved you, why did you do it? Why didn't you stop yourself in the car anywhere?

[43:36] Dr. Palmer: Why did you come to see me, Kevin?

[43:39] Kevin McFadden: I don't know.

[43:40] Dr. Palmer: You said you wanted me to help you, right? Well, the first step is being honest about what happened. It doesn't even have to be to me. But you have to accept that you chose to walk into that mall.

[43:50] Kevin McFadden: I didn't choose to.

[43:51] Dr. Palmer: They made...

[43:53] Kevin McFadden: Who made you?

[43:54] Dr. Palmer: Who made you walk in the mall?

[43:54] Kevin McFadden: Haven't you been listening?

[43:56] Kevin McFadden: Everyone treated me like shit my whole life. No one cared. No one paid attention. I had nothing. I had fucking nothing. Not one thing. That's all I wanted. One girl, one friend, one story.

[44:08] Dr. Palmer: But you had Molly. You got a story.

[44:10] Kevin McFadden: No, I had nothing, okay? And I did stop myself so many times. But how much shit can keep happening to you until you just can't take it anymore? Is that how you felt? That you couldn't take it anymore?

[44:21] Dr. Palmer: Is that knock at the door?

[44:23] Kevin McFadden: Not now.

[44:23] Dr. Palmer: Another knock.

[44:24] Kevin McFadden: I said not now. I need to get him to wreck time.

[44:30] Dr. Palmer: Are you kidding me? He's only got half an hour to get out! I have to bring him down there. I'm gonna get it from the war. Shut the hell out and don't open that door until we're done.

[44:40] Dr. Palmer: You know what? Maybe I should call the warden. This is bullshit.

[44:43] Kevin McFadden: Fine shit. Either call the warden or get the fuck out of my office.

[44:54] Dr. Palmer: Is that how you felt that you couldn't? Did you ever go to Hawaii? I heard it's warm there.

[45:00] Kevin McFadden: I used to ask my mom growing up. She said it was too far. We went to California though. Disney. Met all the characters, Mickey and Goofy. That was like my favorite memory.

[45:14] Dr. Palmer: Is that why you moved to LA? Because it was warm?

[45:16] Kevin McFadden: That was part of it. And I bet you made a lot of money, right? Harvard Doctor. LA.

[45:22] Dr. Palmer: That's not why. But you liked it there, right? You were happy?

[45:28] Kevin McFadden: I was.

[45:29] Dr. Palmer: So why'd you leave?

[45:31] Kevin McFadden: Your own office, California. Why'd you move to this shithole?

[45:35] Dr. Palmer: I don't know.

[45:36] Kevin McFadden: Yes, you do. Why did you choose jail? Did someone find out?

[45:41] Dr. Palmer: What?

[45:42] Kevin McFadden: That you tried to blow up your school?

[45:44] Dr. Palmer: No, I just wanted to help.

[45:46] Kevin McFadden: There's like a million places to help people before they do this stuff. But if someone found out.

[45:53] Dr. Palmer: No one knew.

[45:54] Kevin McFadden: You tried to blow up your school and no one knew. You're the first person I told, besides my therapist and my dad.

[46:02] Dr. Palmer: Really?

[46:03] Kevin McFadden: Why?

[46:07] Dr. Palmer: Because I thought you'd understand. Because I'd trust you.

[46:13] Kevin McFadden: How do you know I won't tell someone?

[46:15] Dr. Palmer: I don't.

[46:16] Kevin McFadden: Would they fire you?

[46:17] Dr. Palmer: Maybe. Probably. Or maybe they just won't believe me.

[46:23] Kevin McFadden: The psycho. The people in LA, they were like you said, spoiled, selfish. I wanted to help people who needed it.

[46:34] Dr. Palmer: Yeah. Like all the deserving people here. You don't think you deserve help?

[46:38] Kevin McFadden: No.

[46:39] Dr. Palmer: Why not?

[46:40] Kevin McFadden: You know why not? You said you were a good person.

[46:41] Dr. Palmer: I was.

[46:43] Kevin McFadden: Before. You can still be a good person.

[46:45] Dr. Palmer: I killed the 20 people. How can I still be a good person?

[46:49] Kevin McFadden: Well, you can uh just stop, all right? Are you having nightmares about what happened? I heard you haven't been sleeping much.

[47:09] Dr. Palmer: Kevin. Your mom said you had trouble sleeping before when you broke up with Molly, when you were at the phone company. She said you really hated it there.

[47:20] Kevin McFadden: Why?

[47:22] Dr. Palmer: They thought I was a loser.

[47:24] Kevin McFadden: And they were the losers. They didn't even get how pointless it was. They were selling phones and they thought that they were curing cancer or something. And all they talked about was like football and sports.

[47:36] Dr. Palmer: They'd go out every night and just talk about how do you know what they talked about?

[47:42] Kevin McFadden: Because I was there. I thought no one invited you places.

[47:46] Dr. Palmer: It was work.

[47:47] Kevin McFadden: Why did you? Couldn't it be that they and no one would talk to me? I just stand there and people would look at me like I was pathetic, and they were pathetic. They were the ones wasting their lives.

[47:59] Dr. Palmer: Why were they wasting their lives?

[48:00] Kevin McFadden: They sell phones. And all they did was go to work, go home and do it all over again. Isn't that what you wanted? To have a normal life, to have a family. Because you wanted to do something important, right? For everyone to know who you were.

[48:11] Dr. Palmer: It wasn't just that. I mean, if you didn't fit into their little box. And he and he looked at me. I'm I'll never forget it. The way he smiled, like, yeah, right, that's never gonna happen. That's just one.

[48:28] Kevin McFadden: Everyone thought that. Even my mom. I mean, she said my stories were good, but well, not everyone can do what they want.

[48:36] Dr. Palmer: Why not?

[48:37] Kevin McFadden: That's not how the system works.

[48:38] Dr. Palmer: Well, the system is a bullshit. Sometimes things aren't fair.

[48:41] Kevin McFadden: Life is. How come someone else gets to be a writer and I can't? Why do I have to do something I hate every day?

[48:48] Dr. Palmer: Because there's only a need for so many writers. Not everyone can. And what happens to everyone else? To everyone who wants to be a writer but can't?

[48:55] Kevin McFadden: They have to choose something else. Lots of people want to be writers or singers or whatever, and they can't. And so they have to go out and do something else. They become a teacher or a lawyer. And they didn't really want to do it.

[49:05] Dr. Palmer: They did. And some of them worked as hard as you. And then it's- I got that story published. I'm a good writer. Why should I have to go around and watch other people doing what I want? To have it rubbed in my face every second of every day.

[49:18] Kevin McFadden: And then with friends and girls, I mean, I'm 25 and I live at home, and my mom's my best friend. How fucking pathetic is that?

[49:26] Dr. Palmer: So why didn't you move out?

[49:28] Kevin McFadden: I couldn't.

[49:28] Dr. Palmer: Why not?

[49:30] Kevin McFadden: I quit my job.

[49:32] Dr. Palmer: Why couldn't you get a new one?

[49:33] Kevin McFadden: I told you. I didn't want to do some stupid crap.

[49:36] Dr. Palmer: Well, don't you think that's a reason you felt so bad about yourself that you were letting your mom do everything for you?

[49:41] Kevin McFadden: It wasn't her fault. But it wasn't her fault, okay? What about your dad?

[49:45] Dr. Palmer: Do you Jesus? What do you do? Why do you always want to blame someone else?

[49:50] Kevin McFadden: I'm not trying to blame anyone, but you keep telling me that other people made you do it. So I'm just trying to figure out who exactly that is.

[50:06] Dr. Palmer: Told me I should give up this writing crap and get a real job. And then he asked me to split the check.

[50:14] Kevin McFadden: And you were closer when you were younger.

[50:18] Dr. Palmer: He was always working. Your mom said you went hunting with him before the divorce.

[50:25] Kevin McFadden: He made me.

[50:26] Dr. Palmer: Was that the first time you used a gun?

[50:28] Kevin McFadden: Yes.

[50:30] Dr. Palmer: You used some of his guns at the mall, right? The paper said that he's not like that. Were you trying to send him a message?

[50:35] Kevin McFadden: It's not about guns.

[50:36] Dr. Palmer: How could it not be about guns?

[50:38] Kevin McFadden: If it wasn't a gun, it would have been something else.

[50:40] Dr. Palmer: But you wouldn't have killed as many people.

[50:42] Kevin McFadden: I would have found a way. But this guy in China stabbed 20 kids at school. He didn't need a gun.

[50:46] Dr. Palmer: And it's not the same. What about you? You didn't have a gun, right?

[50:51] Kevin McFadden: I guess not.

[50:54] Dr. Palmer: Did you like it? Hunting?

[50:56] Kevin McFadden: No. I mean, it was like killing them to kill them. We didn't eat them or anything. It was just for fun.

[51:03] Dr. Palmer: And that bothered you?

[51:04] Kevin McFadden: They were just standing there going about their lives and bam. We just blew them away.

[51:12] Dr. Palmer: So what changed? You didn't like hunting, guns, and now something must have changed.

[51:19] Kevin McFadden: Yeah.

[51:21] Dr. Palmer: I watched movies and played video games.

[51:23] Kevin McFadden: You think so?

[51:25] Dr. Palmer: God, don't you get it? You can take away the guns and the movies, and it won't matter.

[51:31] Kevin McFadden: Why?

[51:32] Dr. Palmer: Because that's not the reason.

[51:33] Kevin McFadden: So what is the reason?

[51:34] Dr. Palmer: Are you fucking listening? Because no one cares. No one would say yes. Because no one would take two seconds out of their day to even just go. I care.

[51:45] Kevin McFadden: Why don't you get what you want? You'll leave two.

[51:48] Dr. Palmer: What do you think that I want?

[51:52] Kevin McFadden: I don't know. But I can't just care about you. I can't just want to help you. That's not how the world works.

[52:00] Dr. Palmer: That's a sad way to see the world.

[52:01] Kevin McFadden: That's the only way to see the world. What about Molly? Did she care about you?

[52:04] Dr. Palmer: I don't know. Do you want to tell me about her?

[52:09] Kevin McFadden: How how did you meet her?

[52:12] Dr. Palmer: We knew each other growing up. Went to church together, sang in the choir. She had this list. She always used to say amazing grace. I love that.

[52:26] Kevin McFadden: She moved back home after college and was just kind of starting to start talking on Facebook, and then she was just like everything I'd been waiting for. She was really smart and pretty. We had like everything in common.

[52:41] Dr. Palmer: And she was the first girl, the only girl that I really liked that said yes.

[52:48] Kevin McFadden: She did this thing with her face. She scrunched it up when she got really happy. The first time I kissed her, I just remember staring at her face. She had the biggest smile. I mean, I thought that was it. That all the pain, all those years had been for something. Even if everything else was crap. I still had her.

[53:14] Dr. Palmer: We did everything together. We read all my stories. I loved her. And then just like out of the blue, she started taking longer to write back. And she was always busy. So finally I asked her, and she said she didn't feel it.

[53:33] Kevin McFadden: I was such bullshit. I was like, we did all this stuff, and there's no way you could have done that if you didn't feel it.

[53:39] Dr. Palmer: What did she say?

[53:40] Kevin McFadden: That she never really liked me that way. She thought if she kept trying, maybe she would, but she never did, and that was it. She just left.

[53:50] Dr. Palmer: I read this article about a guy who lost half his face in a car accident, his eyes, his nose. He just got married. How pathetic is that? A guy with no face can find someone, but I can't. Why do you think that's because there's something wrong with me?

[54:04] Dr. Palmer: Haven't you been listening? It's always the same every time. Every girl I've ever dated, they're all the exact same thing. I all said the exact same thing. They don't like me like that. They don't feel it.

[54:18] Kevin McFadden: How can I make them feel it? How can I make someone love me?

[54:22] Dr. Palmer: Sometimes things don't work out, Kevin. Even when people two people love each other, even if you get what you want, it's not gonna stay that way. Sometimes you wake up and everything you had is gone. Just like that. No one is happy all the time.

[54:34] Kevin McFadden: I was never happy. Not once.

[54:36] Dr. Palmer: Stop it. Bad things happen to everyone. What matters is what you do afterwards, how you deal with it. You can't just give up on as soon as things get.

[54:43] Kevin McFadden: I didn't give up. I kept writing. I kept trying to make friends.

[54:47] Dr. Palmer: But you only wanted things your way. It was either all or nothing.

[54:50] Kevin McFadden: But that's not how I sent her an email after we broke up that I would be friends, whatever she wanted.

[54:56] Dr. Palmer: What did she say?

[54:58] Kevin McFadden: That she was happy with her life, how it was without me in it.

[55:07] Dr. Palmer: Not exactly sunflower, huh? Was that the thing that sent you off? Molly?

[55:15] Kevin McFadden: Just stop. Okay.

[55:17] Kevin McFadden: I want to go back.

[55:19] Dr. Palmer: Kevin.

[55:20] Kevin McFadden: You don't want to help me? You don't want to use it.

[55:22] Dr. Palmer: That's not true.

[55:23] Kevin McFadden: Lie to me. So I'll so I'll I'm not loving.

[55:25] Dr. Palmer: Oh, come on. You tried to blow up your school.

[55:27] Kevin McFadden: I did. You're normal. You're not like me. You're some god, you're not some goddamn monster who Why are you working here?

[55:40] Dr. Palmer: Fine.

[55:41] Kevin McFadden: My wife, she left me.

[55:45] Dr. Palmer: You said you weren't married.

[55:47] Kevin McFadden: I said I didn't have a family. Things were tough between us. She thought that moving here that it would change things, but it didn't. And one day I woke up and all her stuff was gone. Her clothes, pictures, just like that. I was 50, and I had nothing. I almost I thought maybe if I came here I could help people who felt the same way.

[56:19] Dr. Palmer: What happened that morning, Kevin? Did something set you off?

[56:24] Kevin McFadden: Come on. You want to talk about the truth? Let's do it. Why did you walk into that mall?

[56:29] Dr. Palmer: I don't know.

[56:30] Kevin McFadden: Really? Do you really believe that?

[56:33] Dr. Palmer: You want to know what I think? I think you had some of the things you wanted. You got a story published. People asked you to do things. You had Molly. I think your problem was your perspective, how you saw things, that everyone had wronged you in some way.

[56:47] Kevin McFadden: No.

[56:48] Dr. Palmer: People have jobs they like. They have friends.

[56:50] Kevin McFadden: No one cared about me. No one ever tried to help me or went out of their way for me.

[56:57] Dr. Palmer: But people don't do that, Kevin. Maybe they should, but they don't.

[56:59] Kevin McFadden: No, no. Even on Facebook. I would wish people a happy birthday, and they couldn't even do that for me. They couldn't even take two seconds and say, hey man, happy birthday.

[57:12] Dr. Palmer: I mean, I go online and everyone's talking about this great stuff that's happening to them. They're having kids, they're getting married, their books getting published, and everything in my life is total crap. I mean, what what else am I supposed to do?

[57:26] Dr. Palmer: But don't you see? That's just the image they're projecting. A lot of them are unhappy just like you.

[57:31] Kevin McFadden: But no, no. Everything I've done has been rejected everywhere. No matter what I do or how hard I try, and no one will be able to do that.

[57:41] Dr. Palmer: So that makes it okay.

[57:43] Kevin McFadden: No.

[57:43] Dr. Palmer: It's okay to go into the mall. You get objected. That's not, you're not, you're not listening to you. Why did you do it?

[57:48] Kevin McFadden: I didn't want to.

[57:49] Dr. Palmer: If you didn't want to, then why, Nathan?

[57:51] Kevin McFadden: If you knew it was wrong.

[57:52] Dr. Palmer: What?

[57:55] Kevin McFadden: You just called me Nathan.

[57:57] Dr. Palmer: No, I didn't.

[57:58] Kevin McFadden: Yes, you did.

[57:59] Dr. Palmer: No, I said.

[58:00] Kevin McFadden: Who's Nathan?

[58:02] Dr. Palmer: No one, I meant Kevin.

[58:13] Kevin McFadden: Have you been a writing?

[58:16] Dr. Palmer: Since you've been here.

[58:18] Kevin McFadden: I can't.

[58:19] Dr. Palmer: Because of your uh head?

[58:21] Kevin McFadden: They won't give me a pen.

[58:23] Dr. Palmer: Afraid of what I'll do with it.

[58:26] Kevin McFadden: Do you want one?

[58:27] Dr. Palmer: No one cares what I want.

[58:29] Dr. Palmer: Here.

[58:35] Kevin McFadden: A crayon.

[58:37] Dr. Palmer: I'm not allowed to give you a pen.

[58:39] Kevin McFadden: Yeah, just like you're not allowed to talk to me, right?

[58:42] Dr. Palmer: Do you want it or not?

[58:43] Kevin McFadden: Fuck you.

[58:45] Dr. Palmer: (puts the crayon down on front of his desk) You want a pen?

[58:49] Dr. Palmer: Here. Take it.

[58:53] Kevin McFadden: (doesn't) Take it.

[58:55] Dr. Palmer: (puts the pen down on the desk) He looks at the door, nervous.

[59:00] Dr. Palmer: He shouldn't be doing this. If someone finds out.

[59:03] Kevin McFadden: (stands up, goes to the desk, and takes it) Got some paper here, too.

[59:08] Dr. Palmer: (searches through the drawers)

[59:10] Kevin McFadden: (stands over him) It's too close. Like I can't understand the concept of personal space.

[59:17] Kevin McFadden: (looks down at the pen in his hand)

[59:19] Dr. Palmer: (doesn't see this) A moment of danger.

[59:23] Dr. Palmer: (finally digs out a small pad) He hands it to Kevin.

[59:28] Kevin McFadden: (goes back to his chair) He looks at the pen and paper. It's like a reunion with an old friend.

[59:34] Dr. Palmer: Go ahead. Write.

[59:36] Kevin McFadden: (looks down at the paper)

[59:39] Kevin McFadden: (after a few seconds, he starts scribbling away)

[59:42] Dr. Palmer: (sits at his desk watching, observing)

[59:45] Kevin McFadden: (continues writing)

[59:47] Kevin McFadden: (after a few beats, looks up, sees Palmer staring at him)

[59:51] Dr. Palmer: (tries to look away, but he's caught)

[59:54] Kevin McFadden: (goes back to writing for a minute or two)

[59:57] Kevin McFadden: Then's Nathan.

[1:00:03] Dr. Palmer: No one.

[1:00:04] Kevin McFadden: I told you.

[1:00:06] Kevin McFadden: I thought we were being honest. It was a mistake.

[1:00:09] Dr. Palmer: Who is he?

[1:00:10] Kevin McFadden: (puts the pen and pad down, threatening to leave) Fine.

[1:00:14] Kevin McFadden: Then I'm patient.

[1:00:17] Dr. Palmer: Here?

[1:00:18] Kevin McFadden: No. And I can't talk about their patience.

[1:00:21] Kevin McFadden: Why do I remind you of him?

[1:00:23] Dr. Palmer: You don't.

[1:00:24] Kevin McFadden: Then why did you call me?

[1:00:25] Dr. Palmer: Kevin.

[1:00:26] Kevin McFadden: You mean Nathan.

[1:00:27] Dr. Palmer: Stop it!

[1:00:29] Dr. Palmer: You just remind me of him, okay?

[1:00:34] Kevin McFadden: Why?

[1:00:36] Dr. Palmer: You have a lot of the same problems.

[1:00:41] Kevin McFadden: Like what?

[1:00:42] Dr. Palmer: Social troubles? Uh, spiraling of grievances.

[1:00:45] Kevin McFadden: Did you help him?

[1:00:46] Dr. Palmer: I tried.

[1:00:46] Kevin McFadden: What happened?

[1:00:48] Dr. Palmer: I don't know. I stopped seeing him.

[1:00:51] Kevin McFadden: Why?

[1:00:52] Dr. Palmer: If you didn't get better, why did you stop?

[1:00:55] Kevin McFadden: Okay. Did he do something?

[1:00:57] Dr. Palmer: Look, did he kill himself? Was he the one who tried to blow up his school?

[1:01:02] Kevin McFadden: That's why you're here, isn't it?

[1:01:04] Dr. Palmer: No one would hire you after that.

[1:01:06] Kevin McFadden: No, that's not what happened.

[1:01:08] Dr. Palmer: If you couldn't even stop him from—

[1:01:08] Kevin McFadden: He didn't do it, okay. It was me.

[1:01:18] Dr. Palmer: What are you writing?

[1:01:20] Kevin McFadden: I don't know. Is it a story or I'm just writing.

[1:01:24] Dr. Palmer: A few more beats.

[1:01:25] Dr. Palmer: (lets Kevin continue writing)

[1:01:29] Kevin McFadden: So, Jeb, was that how he felt? That he just couldn't take it anymore?

[1:01:33] Dr. Palmer: Just stop, alright? I'm done. This is going to be our only time to talk.

[1:01:39] Dr. Palmer: If you don't talk to me now, you're not gonna get your answer.

[1:01:43] Kevin McFadden: There is no answer.

[1:01:45] Dr. Palmer: There's always been something wrong with me. Since I was a kid, no matter what I tried to do.

[1:01:50] Kevin McFadden: Then why did I do it? No one wanted my stories? Who cares?

[1:01:56] Dr. Palmer: You did.

[1:01:58] Kevin McFadden: People are starving to death, and I'm unhappy because no one wants some stupid stories. Because I don't have friends. That's fucking pathetic.

[1:02:06] Dr. Palmer: I could understand why you'd feel that way. What about you? You don't have a family. Your dad's not here, so what's stopping you this time?

[1:02:18] Kevin McFadden: I'll tell you why. Because Nathan was fucked up. And you're not.

[1:02:22] Dr. Palmer: Nathan knew it was wrong, but he didn't care. He didn't do anything right his whole life. One failure after another. He was a loser, a little insignificant piece of shit.

[1:02:35] Kevin McFadden: But he couldn't take being an insignificant piece of shit. So he was going to do something about it. Something everyone would remember, no matter how terrible it was.

[1:02:46] Dr. Palmer: You don't know what it's like. You'll never know what it's like no matter how much you talk to me.

[1:02:50] Kevin McFadden: You want to know what I think, why I think you came here, Kevin? Most people who try to commit suicide and survive, they hate themselves for trying it. They're happy they're alive.

[1:03:01] Dr. Palmer: Well, I think you woke up in that hospital and you realized what you'd done, and you hated yourself. For three weeks, you've been sitting in that cell hating yourself, wishing you could take it back, wishing it would go away, wishing you were dead.

[1:03:15] Kevin McFadden: You know, no one made you do it. You chose to do it.

[1:03:19] Dr. Palmer: But you can't admit that because what does that make you? How can you be a good person when you killed 17 inches?

[1:03:24] Kevin McFadden: No, that's not—

[1:03:24] Dr. Palmer: So you keep telling yourself you didn't have a choice, just like before, just like your whole life. Nothing was your fault, nothing was ever your fault. They made you do it.

[1:03:32] Kevin McFadden: No, that's a load of crap. You know it's a load of crap. No one made you do anything. You chose to do it. You were angry, you were hurt, just like millions of other people. We all wish that someone would love us like we wanted, that we had better friends, like more friends, that we got to do something we love, but you were special.

[1:03:51] Kevin McFadden: You weren't gonna be like that. That's not the—you were gonna take it out, you weren't gonna take it. You were gonna show us, show everyone how special you really were. That's why you're here, right? That's what you want. Permission to tell the truth.

[1:04:05] Dr. Palmer: Well, here's the truth, Kevin. So go ahead. Tell yourself.

[1:04:08] Kevin McFadden: You said you could help me.

[1:04:09] Dr. Palmer: Help you what? Feel better, tell you it's okay? It's not okay. It will never be okay. No matter what happened, no matter what people did to you.

[1:04:17] Kevin McFadden: No, you're not listening to me.

[1:04:19] Dr. Palmer: I've been listening this whole time to your excuses, your bullshit. You know why people didn't help you? Because you didn't want their help. You just wanted to keep telling yourself you were the victim, that everyone was against you.

[1:04:30] Kevin McFadden: No, I—

[1:04:30] Dr. Palmer: Your mom loved you, that wasn't enough. You got a story published, that wasn't enough. You dated girls, you got a job, but nothing ever was good enough for you.

[1:04:39] Kevin McFadden: You're not even—

[1:04:39] Dr. Palmer: And you couldn't kill yourself because then you'd be a victim again. And you weren't gonna be the victim, not this time. Those people, those are their families, you're your family, and uh they were gonna be the victim.

[1:04:50] Kevin McFadden: No, that's not why I—

[1:04:52] Dr. Palmer: They were gonna suffer just like you. You were gonna ruin their lives, ruin everyone's lives for not taking your stories or going out with you.

[1:04:57] Kevin McFadden: No, for picking on you, for making fun of you.

[1:05:00] Dr. Palmer: No, that's not—you were gonna show them, right? What else were you supposed to do? You were gonna make them sorry, whatever it took. Even if you had to kill 17 people or 20 or 100.

[1:05:09] Kevin McFadden: Just do these people do to you. What was killing them gonna do? What was killing anyone gonna do?

[1:05:14] Kevin McFadden: I had—I had to.

[1:05:16] Dr. Palmer: You had to walk into that mall and kill 17 people because they made you? Who made you? The girl in the dress store, did she make you? What about the old man you shot? Did he make you stop? The kids buying ice cream. What about them? Did they make you? Who made you, Kevin? Why did you do it? Why?

[1:05:33] Kevin McFadden: Please just—

[1:05:35] Dr. Palmer: (face to him and grabs it) Just tell me. Why?

[1:05:38] Kevin McFadden: Because then you'll know why Nathan did it? Why your son did it?

[1:05:45] Dr. Palmer: Yeah.

[1:05:46] Kevin McFadden: You come to my cell last night, say you wanted to talk. No one wants to talk to me. The guards won't say anything. The doctors wish I was dead, but you.

[1:05:57] Kevin McFadden: I thought maybe you wanted to write a book, get on TV. Most people do what I did, don't survive. Their fingers don't slip when they put the gun to their head.

[1:06:08] Dr. Palmer: But you were different. You really cared, I could tell. Not like Saterson or Gold Farb.

[1:06:15] Kevin McFadden: So I come down here, and it makes sense. You tried to blow up your school. But then I realized there's no way you did it. I mean, after you go through with it, something like that, you're—maybe you're lying. Or you're talking about one of your patients.

[1:06:34] Dr. Palmer: But you kept asking about my mom, telling me about your dad, how he saved his son.

[1:06:40] Kevin McFadden: I saw the picture in your desk, and you gave me the pad. You, a woman, a kid. That's why your wife left, right? After what he did.

[1:06:55] Dr. Palmer: He didn't do it.

[1:06:58] Kevin McFadden: Please don't lie to me.

[1:06:59] Dr. Palmer: He tried to.

[1:07:02] Kevin McFadden: The bomb went off by accident. When he was building it. And you thought if you came here. If you talk to these people, you might understand. But you never did, right? And then I came along. And finally, you would know. And if you helped me, if you saved me.

[1:07:28] Kevin McFadden: Is it true what you said? That you're not allowed to talk to me?

[1:07:31] Dr. Palmer: (nods)

[1:07:35] Kevin McFadden: I won't tell.

[1:07:38] Dr. Palmer: It doesn't matter. He'll find out. That's why it's our only time to talk, right?

[1:07:46] Kevin McFadden: Well, at least you know.

[1:07:49] Dr. Palmer: No one. There's nothing you could have done.

[1:07:53] Kevin McFadden: No.

[1:07:54] Dr. Palmer: I was his father. I was supposed to know.

[1:07:56] Kevin McFadden: You couldn't have stopped him no matter how much you—

[1:07:56] Dr. Palmer: The day before he—

[1:08:00] Kevin McFadden: You want to know what happened that morning? I woke up and something was different. I just knew this was it. That I couldn't take it anymore. I wouldn't take it anymore. Not one more day of my mom told me she loved me.

[1:08:22] Kevin McFadden: Right before she went to work. She made me breakfast. She kissed me. She asked me if everything was okay. And the second she left, I went to the basement and got my dad's guns.

[1:08:38] Kevin McFadden: Part of me was telling myself not to do it, but I felt like I had to. I had to take that pain and get it out to make them feel it.

[1:08:49] Kevin McFadden: I went to one of the back doors at the mall, but it was locked. So I tried another. And then I just went through the front door. And there was this girl I went to high school with. She was just standing there waiting for someone. I—I don't know if she recognized me.

[1:09:11] Kevin McFadden: I took out the guns and I couldn't look when I pulled the trigger. I closed my eyes. I just kept squeezing over and over. And for that first second, it felt so good. And then I heard it. Screaming, the yelling, the crying.

[1:09:37] Kevin McFadden: So I opened my eyes and I saw them. And I realized what I'd done. I'd actually gone through with it. That I—so I put the gun to my head and you're right. I wish I was dead. I should be dead.

[1:10:00] Dr. Palmer: If you knew it was wrong, then why did you do it? Why did Nathan do it?

[1:10:08] Kevin McFadden: Because they made me?

[1:10:11] Dr. Palmer: You really think that, Kevin? After everything we've talked about, you really think that's why you did it? Because they made you?

[1:10:22] Kevin McFadden: You're right. No one made me. I chose to. I wanted to. I wanted to be something to be. I wanted everything they promised me, and I wanted it to be for something good. I really did. But if I couldn't get it that way, I was—I was gonna do whatever it took. I wasn't a nobody. A not a nobody. And neither was Nathan.

[1:10:56] Dr. Palmer: And you're lucky he didn't survive.

[1:10:59] Kevin McFadden: What?

[1:11:00] Dr. Palmer: You know what my life is like now? Every day for a few seconds, I wake up and I forget where I am. What I did. And then I wish I could just have that gun for one more second.

[1:11:16] Dr. Palmer: Your life doesn't have to be over. You can tell your story, help you.

[1:11:21] Kevin McFadden: Don't you get it? No one would listen.

[1:11:23] Dr. Palmer: Why not?

[1:11:25] Kevin McFadden: They want to say it's about guns. Because we're crazy. Because if they saw why we did it, they'd know there's going to be more of us. And no one wants to hear that.

[1:11:42] Dr. Palmer: But we didn't want to hurt them. We didn't want to hurt anyone. We did—we just wanted those things to be happy, to be part of it.

[1:11:55] Dr. Palmer: You love Nathan. I can tell. That's all you could have done.

[1:12:02] Kevin McFadden: (stands up) He takes the piece of paper on his chair, the one he was writing on earlier. He folds it up and gives it to Dr. Palmer.

[1:12:10] Kevin McFadden: Can you give this to my mom?

[1:12:15] Dr. Palmer: Okay.

[1:12:18] Kevin McFadden: Can I go back to my cell now?

[1:12:21] Dr. Palmer: (looks at Kevin for a moment, then he goes to the door and opens it) We're done, officer.

[1:12:28] Officer Falco: (enters and looks at Palmer) Then he glares at Kevin and slaps the handcuffs on.

[1:12:34] Kevin McFadden: (looks at Palmer, then Falco pushes Kevin out of the office)

[1:12:38] Dr. Palmer: (stands there for a few moments) Then he opens the note and begins reading it.

[1:12:44] Dr. Palmer: (after a few beats his eyes jump up) He goes to his desk, picks up the green crayon, and realizes that the pen he gave Kevin is missing.

[1:12:53] Dr. Palmer: (runs to the door about to call out, but then stops himself) He looks at the crayon, then back into the office. A few beats, a decision.

[1:13:06] Dr. Palmer: (folds up the letter and stands there for a few moments as the lights fade)

[1:13:13] End of play.

[1:13:42] ♪ Musical number ♪

[1:17:32] Iyvon Edebiri: And what a beautiful play, too.

[1:17:36] Iyvon Edebiri: Yes. Um, so we're doing a like a little quick reset because we're doing something different. Every episode is different. Um, and our wonderful playwright David is um actually in LA. Couldn't fly out here because he's that popular of an actor. Um, so he's there, but he's calling in and he really wants to physically be here. And I think we're with him. Can you hear us, David?

[1:18:06] David Meyers: I can't hear you.

[1:18:07] Iyvon Edebiri: Yeah.

[1:18:09] David Meyers: Yeah.

[1:18:10] Iyvon Edebiri: Great. We can all hear you, it's great. So I think we should begin by asking you the question that we usually ask at the beginning of the show of all of our playwrights, which is uh, what would the world be missing if it didn't have this play?

[1:18:30] David Meyers: I think the world would be missing perhaps—can you hear me?

[1:18:37] Iyvon Edebiri: Yes.

[1:18:45] David Meyers: —different perspective on people who commit these kind of acts. And I also think that that mentality also applies to other violent phenomena such as terrorism and things like that. So often we just hear uh people who commit mass shootings or terrorists referred to as monsters or people who have extreme religious fanaticism. I think that even underlying that religious fanaticism can often be this social isolation and disappointment. If you look at the history of a lot of terrorists, especially in Europe, who are homegrown, uh a lot of them fell into Islam after having a lot of personal and professional failures, and that was something they could kind of grasp onto and make their mark on the world.

So I don't think this is a perspective we hear a lot when we talk about people who commit acts of violence, and that's that was the motivation of the play, just to try and open up a conversation about what are the people like who do these things. And we talked uh, you know, when we were putting together the reading, yet some directors said, Oh, this you know puts the character in too sympathetic of a light. And I personally don't feel any sympathy for what he did, but I feel empathy for their pain. And in a way, you sort of feel that even about people who do terrible things. Right.

[1:20:24] Iyvon Edebiri: So um, so was there a specific incident? And there's been so many in the last few years of mass shootings. Um, for a while it did seem that every other day we heard about a mass shooting, and it became kind of, you know, we became so desensitized to it that we'd be like, of course there was another mass shooting. Um, so was there a specific incident that made you like actually then put pen to paper to write Broken?

[1:20:56] David Meyers: There wasn't a specific incident. It was more a matter of watching all of these keep unfolding, and in my mind, these people all fit a similar pattern. We also talked about in the lead up to the reading about casting that this people worried that it could be a white male—too many white males—and as we talked about, that was kind of the point of the play. That this white male entitlement to what they regard as a happy life seems to be, at least seems to me to be a huge part of the phenomenon. So it was seeing all of these, and in my mind, thinking they all had a similar profile, and it was pretty rewarding because I wrote the first draft of the play just based on my own intuition, and then when I started to do research and when people would send me articles, so much of that confirmed what was in the play.

It was right before we went into production of the workshop we did uh in New York that that Dina worked on was the Elliot Rogers shooting in—I'm not sure where I'm—Ken, but it was at uh UC school. And just watching that video, it was crazy. Like our director, Simi Nelson said, it's just like watching Kevin. It was almost all the same grievances. So it wasn't one in particular, but they all just seemed to be so similar.

[1:22:31] David Meyers: And I'm sorry, no, I'm talking a lot, but uh I like bringing this up when I talk about the play. I don't know if you all know Assassins, but there's this amazing imagined scene between uh John Wilkes Booth and Lee Harvey Oswald. And it's basically a 10 minute play. I think it's one of my favorite pieces of dramatic works ever written. And I almost didn't like this play because I said, well, in a way, that scene says exactly what this play does about why uh Lee Harvey Oswald killed Kennedy. So I don't think it's even a new phenomenon. I think it's that just middle class, you know, once you have those basic needs met, you start looking for the next things, you know, relationship, career fulfillment, people that like you.

Uh and I think not getting that sparks these feelings in a lot of people, and then the big question is why what separates the people like Kevin and uh Lee Harvey Oswald from all the people who might feel that way, but wouldn't lash out and wouldn't do something terrible about it?

[1:23:46] Iyvon Edebiri: Yeah, I definitely—I don't know if the uh incident that you were referencing was at UC Santa Barbara. And I love that. I I live in where he went to the sorority houses. Yeah, I lived in Isla Vista and I had friends who lived in many of the places that that shooter went to, and so I definitely was thinking of that when I first read this play, and then when I was hearing it tonight, I was like, uh, this sounds like the kid from that shooting because he basically said so many of the things that Kevin in the play says about like, well, no one noticed me and no one loved me, and therefore I was going to, you know, like kill them.

[1:24:26] David Meyers: Exactly.

[1:24:27] Iyvon Edebiri: To like make them love me or know me.

[1:24:30] David Meyers: And as you said, it was it was unbelievable because that happened literally, I think a month or two before we started rehearsing, you know, it was well after the script had been written. So it was really shocking to see something out there that exclusively since he made that video.

[1:24:49] Iyvon Edebiri: Mm-hmm. Um, is I just have a quick question. Is Kevin uh um like a millennial? Like, would he like be, you know, in his twenties? Like what do you envision?

[1:25:01] David Meyers: Well, he is 25, but like the setting, the time—sorry, the time of when the play takes place. Is it now or is it like what year do you think it is?

[1:25:17] David Meyers: That's interesting. I uh, if you would have think I would have thought about that more, but I would say maybe said a few years ago, maybe two thousand thirteen-ish, two thousand twelve, two thousand thirteen, because I feel like he isn't that generation, and uh it was interesting, a lot of people keep saying, well, he says he's 25, but he sounds so much younger, and that was kind of intentional that as we're as we're trying about with Eric, this guy who he might, you know, he might be in his early to mid-twenties, but he's kind of been socially stunted. So he, you know, it's sort of by design that he, you know, obviously there's something very wrong with this person. So he's not behaving how you would expect the 25 year old to behave, but that's also because he does something that the, you know, that leads him to doing this awful thing that the normal 25 year old would not do.

But that's a really great question about the time frame. I do think it would be set a few years earlier to put him in that generation. Uh, and I'm a little older than that, so I don't know that generation although, you know, this it seems to be similar to people who are, you know, coming into their twenties now to me, but I, you know, not in my early twenties now so I I wouldn't know that as probably well as some people who are there.

[1:26:46] Iyvon Edebiri: Right. I mean I just asked that—I just asked that question mostly because um I feel like a lot of, you know, millennials we get a lot of shit about um how we're entitled and how you know we um expect uh a participation trophy for everything and to um an extent I do understand that but again that's the people that's on the people who raised us like mom, dad, grandma, that's y'all fault. So one don't put that on us. So I I asked that question about if Kevin was a millennial because do you think that Kevin and his thinking is so um it's just so it—I mean it does mirror every mass shooter and what they say about this like sense of of like gross entitlement that you know that if I'm nice to girls, you know, the UC Davis shooter, if I'm nice to girls, they're going to have sex with me.

[1:27:55] David Meyers: Um if I um do XYZ, this is what X um 1, 2, 3 will happen. So do you think that it's Kevin is a product of being a millennial? Do you think it's just like him and this skewed um I guess the skewed view that we have about society and and what we expect um and demand of other people? I mean, I think it's uh it's the combination of both. I think it's exactly what you said, at least for me, you know. We I was constantly told growing up, you're successful if you make money, you're successful if you have a nice house with the wife, you're successful if you you know if you have a lot of friends and you have career success. And then we're also told if you work hard, if you put in the work, anything is possible.

And obviously, we're all you know, we're we're in a field where sometimes you can have more talent than anyone, and it's and it just doesn't work out for whatever reason. And that you know that's just part of life, understanding that sometimes you can do everything right and things just don't work out, and that's just part of being you know, human. I don't know if you guys are know the musical uh Merrily We Roll Along, which I love. There is a great documentary that just came out about the process, and they were interviewing Hal Prince uh about it, and the documentary traced the life of what happened to all these performers who were 17, 18, 19 and were in the Suntime Youth School right at the beginning of their careers.

And Hal Prince said, Well, uh the mean the musical is the b the Merrill Lee Rerollong is about how some people get lucky and get the breaks and other people don't. And I expected that's what would also happen not just to the characters in the play, but the cast. And then when he's talking about uh the documentary says, and that is what happened, and you s you know, see all these people who started out together, some people got that audition, they got that job, and other people were just as talented, worked just as hard, and for whatever reason it didn't work out. So I do think it it is a product of being raised in America, because this is really uh I did talk about the things in Europe, but they do have similar cultures, but this mass tuning phenomenon is really when you look at it a largely American phenomenon.

Yes. And I think a lot of that is what we were constantly, you know, bred and told that everyone deserves their moment to be exceptional. And I think Kevin chooses his moment to be exceptional in a horrible way, because it's the only way after failing and everything else, he can figure out how to, you know, make his mark.

[1:30:56] David Meyers: Yeah. Um, as as you were exploring it as as you were writing and thinking about this play, what correlations too I mean, you mentioned earlier people who turned to uh terrorism or suicide bombings. Uh what kind of relations or psyche did you see in the crossover over between that and why Kevin did this mall shooting? It's it's interesting. So I used to work in politics before, you know, I came back to theater and playwriting, and I'm still interested in that. And part of my day job is working for a website that covers these things. And it's really remarkable if you look at the stories about so many of these homegrown terror uh terrorists in um in Europe, almost none of them even if they came from countries where you know, th that were a majority Islam, almost none of them were practicing uh Muslims, let alone, you know, so uh inspired by it that they twisted it and used it to justify their violence.

They weren't even practicing. And then a lot of them were either petty criminals or people who had been frustrated in their personal relationships, they had trouble with girls or their professional relationships, their careers didn't work out. They were floundering, a lot of them were like delivering pizzas, doing menial jobs, and then if you look at their profiles, they grasp onto this crazy radical version of Islam as a way to give meaning and purpose to their life because they were so unhappy elsewhere. Uh so and again, it's a similar thing. If you read up about a lot of these people, it not everyone, but a you know, a lot of them fall into a similar pattern. And then we hear, oh, the problem is, you know, religion, and yes, they're twisting their rel you know, religion and people have this cr you know, crazy version of Islam that they're using to try and, you know, recruit these people, but a lot of these people only come to this after they feel like something is missing in their life or they have such unhappiness that this gives them a sense of belonging. So I I do see sort of a you know similar parallel so it doesn't apply just to mass shootings.

[1:33:34] David Meyers: No, I mean for sure. Um well I guess this brings us to our the question that we've been asking playwrights, um so you have sixty seconds. Um what would you say to um Trump? It's after his a hundred days you survived that kind of I had if if you Google my name and Donald Trump, you will you will see exactly what I think of uh of him. So it's just very so my background, I don't know if we've discussed this guys, but so I actually work in uh the White House for George Bush. So I think I'm exceptionally qualified to say that and I've just been it's liter it's literally been very difficult for me to see Donald Trump even in the Oval Office. I mean yeah, for the fur I've never really been worried about the future of the country before and not just for our security, but just you know, what does it mean that America could elect someone like that?

To me, America was always special to me because we had never had a person of this character and intention in the local office and my political rear career was finished, you know, when I published my first article saying this, but it's just I think it's just very dangerous times and the m the best thing to do is just to keep being vigilant, active and keep speaking out because when people keep speaking out, stop speaking out, that's when people become complacent and the you know they think they can get a you know get away with the things that some of the things they're trying to get away with.

[1:35:30] David Meyers: Awesome. Um and finally, uh the hardest question of our interview that we ask our playwrights is what did you have for breakfast this morning? Well, I had pr I had this fantastic cereal. I'm trying to find the box now. I highly recommend. It's called the one degree. They have it's like be I'm reading the box, it's called the Veganic Sprouted Brown Rice Crisps. So it the it tastes really good. This is radio, but you can't see Ivon's face right now. That sounds so healthy in a sustainable manner. So healthy way one degree. Well, you eat that. And I'm going to go to the house. Yeah, and butter and and before I go, I just wanted to thank you guys. One for doing this by phone, because I'm so happy that I got to participate in this.

It kind of killed me, you know, that I wouldn't be able to be part of this process. And then two, for just finding this play. I still remember the email I got from you a year ago. Oh, we found your play. Like it, we want to do it. Uh, and I've, you know, I've listened to a lot of the podcasts, uh, and I just have uh grown to know both of you guys, and I'm huge fans of yours, and I'm really, really thrilled to be part of this. And I just want to thank Dina as well, who's a fantastic director and a really great friend, and then also the who I've never met. But I'm assuming they did a fantastic job, and I it was it's really a thrill, and I say this without any pretension or thing. It's I'm really honored to be part of it.

I love what you're doing, the kind of work you're doing, and then so neat. I'm a huge podcast fan. I just love trying to find something different rather than just you know hosting a play reading. And I'm just really, really thrilled to be involved. So thank you guys so much.

[1:37:37] Iyvon Edebiri: Oh, you're so nice. Thank you.

[1:37:39] David Meyers: Thank you very much. And while we're being thankful, um we would like to thank a couple other people who make this podcast possible. Um, one of them is our audio engineer, um Fernando Castillo. Woo! Um, we'd also like to thank our social media manager, Siena Gonzalez. Um Cloud City for hosting us again. Always, always, thank y'all. Our wonderful cast. Yes. And then our wonderful mus oh no, before we go to our musical guests, we want to thank you at home for listening and our audience for being here tonight. And our playwright David again and again our director. Thank you all. Thank you all for all the meeting. And we're gonna turn it over to Andrew Lynch one more time.

[1:38:43] ♪ Musical number: "Margie Eats a Bigot" — performed by Andrew Lynch ♪

[1:39:43] ♪ Musical number: "A Prayer" — performed by Andrew Lynch ♪

[1:42:06] Thank you. Thank you, Parsnip Ship. Thank you, everyone for listening. This has been great.