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[0:00] Bobby Steggert: I'm Bobby Steggart, and this is The Quiet Part Out Loud.

[0:15] Bobby Steggert: Despite our capacity for selfishness and cruelty, we humans are in fact the most caring species on Earth. Because of our physical weakness in the animal kingdom, we had to evolve through mutual cooperation. And it is the complexity of our social structures, organized through language and storytelling and moral codes, that makes us the only living beings to care about caring, to extend that care across the boundaries of time and to abstractions beyond our immediate environment. In that all evolution is about survival, so do all of our parts have a fundamental role in our individual survival, even if merely in the social realm? Caretaking, as altruistic as it is, is also a defense. Consider this in your own patterns.

Sometimes we offer care simply because it feels like the right thing to do, but even that may be entwined with a performance of virtue for the sake of your reputation. Everyone loves generosity, and notice how often sacrifice is portrayed as the most profound version of love. It can be used to control others. I give you what you need, so you need me. Caretaking can attract mates and friends alike, and it can shore up our self-esteem, especially if we aren't quite sure what else we have to offer. At its worst, we can lose ourselves in the process of centering other people. And in its purest form, I think that service to others is a source of connection to something outside of ourselves. It reminds us of our shared community and humanity, and in a world that is increasingly turning away from the importance of caring for the stranger, for social cohesion, for the health of our planet, it may be what we need more of.

Jenny Barber is a name you just heard on the podcast, and she happens to be my friend and a colleague who, amongst her many artistic endeavors, taught acting at USC where Tyler Joseph Ellis studied. I love that this podcast is partly an exploration of the wisdom of people of all generations, and Jenny, as my contemporary, is someone I've performed with and who I also look to as a source of wisdom. Jenny comes from a lineage of caretaking. Her father was a minister and a community leader, and it is this ethic that she has brought into her life everywhere she goes, but especially as an actor, whether as a cast member, a mentor, a friend, or a teacher. She also shares the complexity of what it is to care as a mother and wife while continuing to live a rich and varied life as an artist.

In fact, she's currently performing in Beetlejuice six years after her last Broadway show. She is simply a very special human, someone who approaches all of her creativity with the truest generosity, and in this conversation, she shares aspects of her life that she has never shared publicly. I'm really grateful for the trust that she and I have, and especially grateful that she has extended that trust to all of you.

[3:21] Bobby Steggert: I want to start someplace very organic.

[3:25] Jenni Barber: Great. I live in this apartment called the Treehouse.

[3:32] Bobby Steggert: Yes, you do. We're sitting in it right now.

[3:35] Jenni Barber: Yes, we are. And you informed me that the tree outside is a special tree. So will you tell me what you discovered about the mulberry tree?

[3:41] Jenni Barber: Yeah. So the tree is just so beautiful, right? You go out in this deck, and you see this gorgeous tree. And I was sitting under it. I was drawn to it. Then I went out another night, and the moon was out. I was like, this tree is just magic. I don't know. It feels like it's watching over me. It feels very maternal. I don't know what that's about. And so I thought, what kind of tree is this? And so I...

[3:59] Bobby Steggert: Did you use AI?

[4:00] Jenni Barber: No, I used like on the iPhone, you could take a picture. Yes. And it has a little leaf. Yeah, because I wouldn't know. And it was a mulberry tree.

[4:04] Bobby Steggert: Oh, mulberry tree. Okay.

[4:09] Jenni Barber: I don't know about mulberries at all, mulberry trees. And they have a lot of abundance, but they also have a history in, I think, in mythology for being like a bridge to the divine and a bridge to the heavens. And I was sitting under the tree, and I was having this really beautiful moment of meditation and thinking a lot about my dad. I just felt his presence. I felt him there. And I thought, oh, wow, this is like my little grandmother tree, who's giving me this moment with him. And I always associate him with trees. I think probably a lot of people see it. I don't know, maybe fathers as trees, as like this something watching over them, like an arbor in some way. And my daughter is named after trees. I love trees. I feel very attracted to trees. But yeah, this tree feels like grandmother tree. I don't know, I keep calling her that. And in terms of caretaking, I know that your dad was a caretaker in a very big way.

[5:03] Jenni Barber: Yeah, he was a minister, and he was also an artist. I would say both, because he really, those were both parts of his life.

[5:07] Bobby Steggert: What kind of artist?

[5:08] Jenni Barber: Watercolorist. Beautiful, incredible. I also did, you know, charcoal, and what else, and acrylics sometimes, but mostly watercolors.

[5:12] Bobby Steggert: Was this stuff all around the house?

[5:16] Jenni Barber: All over the house. And our attic was turned into a studio, and it was just like covered in paints and paintings and easels. And so when I would see my dad at home, it was always painting. He was always up there in his studio. But he also led a faith community in the 70s up until he died in 98. And I think he was a very reluctant leader. He was really fascinated and really interested in the cause and the social activism and the advocacy that this community was showing. And he grew up in a really conservative community, and thinking this is a way he felt like it could be an active way of serving. He was always service first.

[5:52] Jenni Barber: This is very, the fundamentals of Christianity that he was actually following.

[5:56] Bobby Steggert: Absolutely, the fundamentals of Christianity. And that's what we were taught, and that's what we were raised with. We're all stewards of everything, of the land, of each other.

[6:04] Jenni Barber: Yeah, so he ended up creating this, it was called a haven, and then it became a fellowship, and then it became more of a traditional church. And he always wanted it to be led as a collective and not as the top of it. But because he was such a caretaker and was so good at leading and teaching, he was pushed to this position that I think ultimately contributed to the stress he was under that probably contributed to his heart attack, to be honest.

[6:28] Bobby Steggert: That is so indicative of how hearts are both so adaptive and can harm us. And how do you see that his caretaking was harmful towards him?

[6:34] Jenni Barber: I think that there was such a dissonance within a faith community, this one in particular. And I think in many of them where all of a sudden, things like legalism and control and management of people becomes more important than just loving people. And I think that he was trying to hold it all. And it was so overwhelming for him. I don't know, I think that it was harmful because I think he thought he could just take care of people and it would just be okay. And I think in many ways, the parts were like, we can't hold this anymore. Did he consciously know that and express that? Or was he someone who was saying, by giving, I am receiving, I am getting what I need?

[7:20] Jenni Barber: I think that he hoped that and believed that. He was truly sacrificial in that. And I think that there was also a moment of sacrifice to it, where he could give, but he didn't need to receive. And I think in his passing, I've had to really try to understand and realize that sacrifice is maybe not the ultimate thing as a person. And it's really hard to even admit that, right? Because that's the ultimate expression of love, the sacrifice.

[7:48] Bobby Steggert: But then you come along, and were those values central to who your family was and telling you who you were supposed to be in the world?

[7:57] Jenni Barber: Yeah, absolutely. And community too. I so admire those who lay down their lives for their friends, right? Those who think of others, who are there for one another. I think that's how we are able to survive as a community and society. But not everybody has the same value system. And we're all trying to survive, essentially. So then there's parts of others and ourselves that then get confused.

[8:21] Bobby Steggert: What was your earliest way of inhabiting caretaking as a kid?

[8:26] Jenni Barber: Oh, I was really, I'm a middle child, so I'm second of four. And I have two younger brothers. So I really was like, I am mommy. It was a very gendered thing too. I don't know if it was put on me. I think that I just, they could have been, it would have been anybody younger than me. But for some reason, my brothers were at that time really docile. Actually, the point where they were babies, and I'd just carry them around. And I would want to take care of them. And we'd do shows together, and I would dress them up, and I would be the director, and I would tell them how to do things. And I was so interested in how they were doing. And I'm still on that way. Sometimes they're like, okay, all right, Jen, thank you.

Like you're checking in, you're making sure you're okay. Yeah, that's my role. I remember my mom telling me when I was little, my second youngest, I think he was probably about seven months old, definitely not eating solid food at the time. And she walked into the kitchen, and I'm just shoving his mouth full of popcorn. I'm like, he loves it. She's like, you're killing him. You're gonna kill our child. But I was, I don't know. I had lots of little toys. And I always felt that my stuffed animals had inner lives, and they need all to be equally played with. Like anthropomorphization.

[9:36] Jenni Barber: Absolutely. To the extreme. To the extreme. I was like, oh, this one's getting a lot of attention. So I need to probably move to the other one, even though that one's my favorite. I'm just gonna let everybody know that we're just gonna spread the love, even though I don't really like this one. I'm still gonna play with it and love it as much as I can.

[9:50] Bobby Steggert: Is that how your imagination developed into performance? In the sense that you created these worlds?

[9:55] Jenni Barber: Oh, probably. Yeah, yeah.

[9:57] Bobby Steggert: It was less about getting attention than it was about the imagination?

[10:00] Jenni Barber: Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. No, the attention was, when I would put on shows for my family, it was usually me shoving my brothers out there and be like, I did this. Look at them. Or like, I would set up some kind of tea party with all the animals out. I said, look at all of them, and they're doing all these things.

[10:14] Bobby Steggert: Isn't that so interesting? There are so many actors who you knew grew up needing to be the center of attention. I've always known that you had another way in.

[10:22] Jenni Barber: I don't need to be the center of attention. No, I also have a very boisterous family. Besides my father, who was actually very quiet, I have amazing, super vibrant siblings. Actually, we all wanted to have attention at a point. The dinner table was busy. And my parents also were so wonderful early on. People living with us, we had people coming in and out all the time, especially if somebody needed some help. So to get attention in my family, it was a tricky thing anyway. So sometimes I would just need to actually remove myself from the chaos.

[10:50] Bobby Steggert: I would actually hide in the dryer.

[10:54] Jenni Barber: Wait, you'd curl yourself into a ball?

[10:57] Bobby Steggert: Yeah, I'd hide in the dryer.

[10:58] Jenni Barber: That's so dangerous. But we had a basement, and I just wanted to get away. And so I would just hide, and it was so quiet.

[11:05] Bobby Steggert: Did you have a blankie and a reading light?

[11:09] Jenni Barber: Oh, no, I didn't think that far. I would just probably keep the door open because I would suffocate. I would just go down, and it was a really safe little space for me. I loved it. I just love being in a tiny space in a big space.

[11:21] Bobby Steggert: Okay, so going into performing, did that ever feel like a caretaking?

[11:27] Jenni Barber: Yes, I think it did. I think every space I go into, I attribute this to my parents. Where can you serve? I always feel like that was a big thing. What can you do when you're in a space? How can you be helpful? And my parents definitely modeled that, and I find myself doing that very organically, which they're so grateful for. So often, though, you go into a space with a bunch of actors or creatives, and then you just start really serving. Oh, you would like a cup of tea? Would you like this? And would you like this? And would you like this? And then sometimes I get myself into a bit of a system where I'm just serving the space, and I'm forgetting that I have a job to do, which is sort of a character. This is a lifelong question of how you have performed or how you engage in performance.

[12:04] Jenni Barber: Yeah, yeah, yes. And I don't really know what that's quite about, but I have had to learn, especially as I've taken on more, I don't know, challenging roles, that I have to maybe either do my work outside of the space so that when I'm in the space with a lot of people, I know I'm coming in with the tools I already need. I can't really find them. I can definitely find them in the room with people I trust, but I'm not sure if I, maybe it's my way of trying to find who I trust. That might be part of it.

[12:33] Bobby Steggert: Say more about that, because I think I get it. You know what I'm saying?

[12:38] Jenni Barber: I want to know who are the helpers and who are the people that I'm like, I'm going to have to just protect my energy in this space. Do I have to work with you? And so you're sniffing out how much people will need.

[12:48] Bobby Steggert: Yes, that's exactly it. You're so good.

[12:52] Jenni Barber: It's a very generous way to sniff that out too. I don't know. Maybe it's a self-preservation. And also I am genuinely curious about everybody. That is a big reason why I think I have been interested in theater my whole life, is that I'm so fascinated by what people think, but I'm also trying to make sure that I see where the danger and where the abundance is. One of the reasons you're such a great actor is because you take care of your scene partners.

[13:10] Bobby Steggert: And you take care of the story. And so you really don't let Jenni's needs as the actress take center stage. And that paradoxically kind of makes you a star, which is really annoying. Did you always know that?

[13:24] Jenni Barber: Oh, no, not at all. I always felt like I didn't. This is also imposter syndrome. Like I really scraped by getting into any space I was in. Wow, what a surprise that I am here.

[13:33] Bobby Steggert: This is your internal experience?

[13:34] Jenni Barber: Yes. Okay. But were you also singing to the rafters and being amazing and funny and everyone was very amazed by you?

[13:38] Jenni Barber: People were. Yes, I don't mind this. People were happy I was there and delighted by my presence, which I was like, very excited that I made them happy. But it was not it was came as a surprise to me too sometimes. Sometimes we don't know what happened. And we'd be like, Wow, wow, me too. How'd that happen?

[13:54] Bobby Steggert: Yeah. So maybe in some ways, your caretaking kept you at a really interesting distance from your talent in a way.

[14:00] Jenni Barber: Yeah, yeah, I think it did. I think it also made me feel that is something that I know talent is such a funny word. Is it cultivated? Is it just a gift? Is it what is it? And I just knew that I had a way of looking at the world and way of digesting the world and then like expressing it that was very unique. I realized that kind of I don't know, maybe early on, but that for me to be able to be in the spaces where I could fully express that maybe even get paid to do that I had to work very hard.

[14:34] Bobby Steggert: Have you always had really intense relationships and friendships?

[14:39] Jenni Barber: Yeah, yeah, I go in real quickly. And that's probably part of a little bit of ADHD thing is that we just or I don't maybe it's my personality. I have extreme empathy, which can be good and bad. So I immediately feel somebody's energy. And if I feel like I can be helpful to them, I'm going to go right in and we're just going to tell them everything that I feel that could help connect us in a way that this is making you safe to certainly making me safe.

[14:57] Bobby Steggert: Yeah, absolutely. Because I'm worried about them. And so I'm going to find a way to maybe we can recharge right? And then I sometimes get myself into trouble because then I just go down a well and I forget where I am. And I have I'm not tethered, right? So then I'm like, I'm feeling their feelings as my feeling.

[15:10] Bobby Steggert: And you connect this to ADHD in the sense that you will be drawn into someone's energy and not holding recenter.

[15:14] Jenni Barber: Exactly. And not thinking about it because I can perceive everything. I have as a lot of artists do highly perceptive, like spidey sense. So if I go down, even just walking down a hallway of a dressing room hallway or something, I can feel everybody's energy. And I'm like, okay, we're gonna just give them space and that person's here and that one's not feeling well. Like it's like a weird collection of data.

[15:37] Bobby Steggert: I wonder if because I have some empathic gifts too how we felt we knew each other pretty immediately.

[15:42] Jenni Barber: I thought that I knew you immediately. I felt like I knew who you were. And I also knew that you would be a part of my life, which is so strange.

[15:47] Bobby Steggert: It's not so strange.

[15:48] Jenni Barber: It's strange, but I have these experiences, remarkably have these experiences. And I've had them throughout my life. And so I don't know what that's about. But I think I'm taking that as a gift, to be honest, that sometimes my intuition is a gift. And when I was a kid growing up in the church, they would talk about how this is a gift and discernment. But I feel like I wasn't able to really discern. But I always knew when something was maybe off.

[16:17] Bobby Steggert: And so say more about how that empathic gift of reading so much has gotten you in trouble in relationships.

[16:23] Jenni Barber: Yeah, yeah, I think because I sometimes will maybe inadvertently pull out of somebody something that they're not ready to express. Or I activate something inside of them that maybe it feels like they don't have that boundary. I worry about that sometimes where I then I feel that I'm responsible for their feelings throughout the process as an actor.

[16:47] Bobby Steggert: Meaning that you offer a safe space that feels like such an oasis to them that they're like, Jenni is everything. And then I run away that polarized protection.

[16:56] Jenni Barber: That's why I probably ran from home. That's why I probably why I needed to get out of Ohio. And I was like, okay, I need to run. I need to go I need to hide in the dryer. I need to go to New York, I need to have a different life because I'm so exposed here in a way that maybe like my dad, like I have nothing left.

[17:18] Bobby Steggert: We'll be right back. Talk to me about when we were coming up, and how the caretaking part showed up in your early performance career.

[17:25] Jenni Barber: Yeah, I think early performance. Correct. I went to the University of Michigan. I'll start there. Okay, even before if I'm starting in high school, we had community theater, we had no high school theater. So I would go to any place that was doing any theatrical work and just try to be a part of it. So I was doing shows with maybe just maybe adults that are way older than me. And I'm grateful for that experience, but probably not the safest spaces. I'm going to be honest, we're doing Anything Goes on a 13 year old wearing like Reno Sweeney's Angels. It's like maybe a 25 year old doesn't need to be got it. Yeah. Okay. Or playing opposite a third year old in year 16. Terrible idea. And also actually, my dad passing when I was 15. It was also a weird thing because I was all of a sudden very exposed and didn't have a lot of tools to understand how to push those away.

[18:10] Jenni Barber: And yeah, so I went to University of Michigan, which was a safe space for me, actually, one of the first safe spaces I've ever been in for my artistic creative life. No pushing me to say this has all has to be sacrificial has to all be as something that is for something else. This can just be for you. I was like, all right, no, it's not possible. I trust that I now I do take a long time. And I had incredible mentors who then let me trust them and earned my trust. And so I think that helped me in a part of me saying don't say this, but selfish with my creativity, but I know it was not selfish, but it felt that way. And so I was equipped there and I felt so excited to just be a part of a community that everyone was doing different things and had different ways of expressing themselves.

It's like all my stuffed animals come to life and they're all like living in New York City. Are you kidding? Great. Everything felt like a candy shop, like everything still does, to be honest, because I just didn't ever think that I would go beyond where I was.

[19:12] Bobby Steggert: Yeah. So tell me about how caretaking has been infused into your family life into your life, not only as an adult daughter and sibling, but as a wife and a mother.

[19:19] Jenni Barber: Yeah. So this is it's interesting. So I'll tell my origin story of me and my husband. I met my husband three months after my dad died when I was 15. Do you know this story?

[19:33] Bobby Steggert: I knew you met as teenagers. I didn't realize you were 15.

[19:36] Jenni Barber: I was 15. Wow. And he was 18. And it's funny because my husband's also an artist and my dad was an artist and they were supposed to meet a month before my dad passed for art lessons. And I think my dad wasn't able to meet or something. And so they never actually met. But this actually happened with my husband when I met him. And I was like, this is the rest of my life.

[19:59] Bobby Steggert: Another one of those moments of true knowledge for you?

[20:01] Jenni Barber: True knowledge. Yeah. And I think for him as well. And so yeah, he has been with me since that time and seen so many different iterations of me. We eloped when I was 23, almost 24. So we've been married now. It'll be 19 years in March, which is amazing. When we were hitting around seven years, we were married. It was actually going to turn 30. I just booked Wicked, which was, oh great, money. We can pay our bills. This is amazing. And two weeks later, he was diagnosed with cancer, which was really crazy and surprising and heartbreaking. And so we had this wild journey the entire time I was doing Wicked, which I had to learn the show. He was going through treatment. He had a really terrible hospitalization at one point where I literally remember sitting, talking about caretaking, I was sitting on the hospital cap bed next to him. And he's like, I'm on morphine. And I'm looking at my script for Wicked. I'm thinking, I have to learn these lines. I am in rehearsal in a week. I don't know what I'm doing right now.

[21:04] Bobby Steggert: Did you ever think about not doing the show or did you have to for the insurance?

[21:08] Jenni Barber: We needed the money. Yeah. Yeah, we had to. Absolutely. And I really didn't tell anybody. We were in that first round in particular, I think we thought we could just take all this on by ourselves. And it was an enormous amount of caretaking in the way that and I was ready for it. I was going to save my husband's life. This is not something that you resented that you felt burdened by?

[21:27] Jenni Barber: No, I never felt resentful or burdened by it. I did feel like I left myself at the door. I completely checked out. And I was like, okay, I'm serving the show and we're getting everybody healthy and it's going to be fine. My husband never put that burden on me ever. The only way he would ever offer that to me is if he's literally getting chemotherapy dripping. You know what I mean? That's how strong he is. So that was a wild, very hard experience that he was in remission from. And so then we tried building back. What do we want to do? Who are we? Do we want to make a family? Do we want to create a family? And actually, this is around the time where I think we both really met. I remember I was about to go do Sunday in the Park with George at Huntington.

And I think you were about to start social work. And we were on the train. I remember thinking like, I think we're at a crossroads right now. I was wild. I was thinking, wow, something different is about to happen. And doing Sunday at the Huntington, a door opened inside of me and I knew I was going to have a baby. I just knew it.

[22:27] Bobby Steggert: You're psychic, aren't you?

[22:28] Jenni Barber: My therapist has said that before. It's weird. Yeah, it's a little, yeah, I know. A door opened and I remember having these dreams of like, where is my child? Like my child is somewhere. I don't know where she is. And so then remarkably, again, my favorite show, also my dad's favorite show was Sunday in the Park with George because he was an artist. And I got a call to do the one in New York, which was like, how do you just get a call? I don't need it was so bananas to me. And then I did that. And in previews, I remember I was talking to my husband and I said, I think it's I want to do this, but it's time. And we got pregnant remarkably like on the first try, which is insane.

[23:06] Jenni Barber: What God, which is literally insane. 34. So almost geriatric pregnancy. Literally, it was like, because we thought, oh, we're gonna be trying for a while because we also had stored some stuff because of his cancer treatment. And so I think we thought we're going to begin this journey is like, and here we are. But this is the wild other part of it is that two weeks after we found out we were pregnant, and I'm doing the show of my dreams, his cancer recurred, his cancer came back back. Was that always a very known risk?

[23:36] Jenni Barber: That no, he had Hodgkin's lymphoma, which is like a 98% prognosis of recovery. And so when it comes back, it's much more serious. Even his oncologist was surprised. And we're very close with that, which was so amazing. And you know, even came to see the show, it was just like such a like, we're gonna take this is gonna be okay. But it was a really incredibly hard year where I'm growing this person, my husband is going through massive treatment, and his stem cell transplant kept getting pushed and pushed down because the medical system is backlogged. And a lot of people need treatment and his stem cell transplant set ended up happening in my eight months of pregnancy. And I thought that I was doing okay holding all of that.

But then we realized the baby had stopped growing. And she was they had to induce me early, which was crazy because I was like, Oh, once Ron gets out of the hospital after his stem cell transplant, I'll be able to learn how to have a baby. I just hadn't done any research. I hadn't done it like about birth or anything. I thought it'll be fine. I go to yoga, I perform, I can just sing my freeway through it. And so she was induced two weeks after he was out of the hospital. And remarkably, I ended up being able to give birth, which was unbelievable. And this is the thing about caretaking, right? That's to give you my whole birth story. But I remember I was feeling contractions. And I remember that the nurse said, we don't see that you're having contractions.

So you're going to have to go in for a C-section. And I said, okay, can you just, I know my husband wants to be here in this whatever moment he can be here. Because he was very, he was like lost all this weight. He was very sick, no immune system, right? And so I said, if he can just be here. So we thought I was gonna have a C-section. So we came in and I remember they turn the lights off, they would just start breathing, just calm down, get ready for that. And I remember that was like a wild moment where my husband's finally there. I felt like my dad entered the room and was like guiding my child. And then they came in, so we're going to take you in the next room. They're like, oh my God, you're fully dilated.

I said, I know, I've been having contractions. They're like, but it didn't show up on the monitor. I said, crap, maybe I'm broken. I don't know what's broken, but I'm going to have this baby. And so then she came out, she was not breathing, which was terrifying. She was like four pounds. And it turned out that probably my body had had so much stress in it that the placenta had stopped working, which I had to deal with my own anxiety about the fact that I maybe contributed to that. But I worked really hard and she worked really hard. And the best part of the kind of caretaking is that for the first three months of Arden's life, we had to live in a two-bedroom apartment, which we got to swap with a good friend who was amazing because my husband needed his own bathroom, his own room because of so much stress.

[26:49] Bobby Steggert: We'll be right back. You know what I'm thinking about? How sometimes caretaking is least complicated during a crisis because you just have to. That's so wise. That's exactly right. And so that's where I have to figure out where's a crisis and when it's not a crisis. Yeah. So tell me about life now that we're not in crisis land and how you determine that and sometimes you determine it right or wrong.

[27:17] Jenni Barber: Yeah, I think that's where I'm at right now. And I think that the pandemic was like this massive crisis that I totally understood how not understood, but understood how to behave within it. I knew where I needed to—I became a lactation counselor. I was like, we are going to do everything we can to help everybody. I was joining all these different groups. But now we're into—we're post pandemic. I am remarkably bored. I'm laughing. I'm back on stage, which is what's happened. I just keep calling. Keep calling. It's amazing. I love it so much. And I feel like I'm getting away with something because I'm like, are you on this? I know. But yeah, it's it. Yes, I'm trying to understand that. But I started teaching a lot after the pandemic.

And that brought me such joy. And that is a lot of caretaking, right? That is ultimate. Like, every day you create a space every day you're sidebar about that. Because I work with some young people as a therapist, like people in art school or drama school.

[28:14] Bobby Steggert: Yeah. And so the question I have as their therapist is probably the same you have as their acting teacher.

[28:21] Jenni Barber: Yeah. What's the most important form of caretaking for these teenagers who are discovering themselves in these spaces, the most important caretaking as the caretaker, I think, truly just listening and holding space compassionately, and just affirming whatever they're feeling. I think that is number one. I think that trying to fix or trying to solve or trying to—I don't all the different ways I was taught, like you ultimately discover it yourself. So you have to find that fertile ground, you create the fertile ground that they then get to grow from. You said that Michigan was a safe space for you. And was it safe in that they allowed everyone to truly be themselves? Because what I remember is being told I had to find my way into the space of an archetype, which I refused to do. But I saw other classmates be too intimidated to stick to their guns.

[29:09] Jenni Barber: Yeah. I think that the world is going to try to put you into all these different boxes. I didn't feel that way. I felt like the teachers I had and the spectrum of different kinds of pieces I got to work on was really varied. But again, I didn't know who I was. So I was always trying to find different places. And I was always trying to get into the clown class or into the acting class. The best classes I took that were not just acting classes, I took these incredible classes with this incredible Professor Ralph Williams. It was this giant, like 300, 400 person lecture halls. And he did the English Bible in Translation, which completely changed my life, and Shakespeare. And that informs the work I do more than anything else.

He was so inspiring and really reminded me of my dad. Honestly, now I think about it, it's like somebody who is truly teaching with such love of language and of spirituality and God, but in such a full expression of love. I would just go to his classes, and I just think, I may not belong everywhere, or I may not book everything, whatever, but I can belong somewhere in the space. And I think that it allowed me to take risks. And I was so fortunate. The best job I ever had, I have to say, was when I got to do the Bridge Project where I was on tour with—it was a repertory group that Sam Mendes put together. And we did The Tempest and As You Like It. And Arden, of course, is named after The Forest Of, because that was such a transformative experience for me.

But the fact that I could belong in that space with those actors, and with those creators, Sam really is the one who saw that in me. And I—they needed someone to sing, they needed someone to be funny. They also were like, we're looking for people who are good people, because we're going to be going to all these different countries. And I was the youngest person in the company and was very much a caretaker in that environment. A lot of men, a lot of older men.

[31:03] Bobby Steggert: In what sense?

[31:04] Jenni Barber: They would sometimes just call me like the mascot. I would come around, I would bake cookies, I would bring food, I would give tea, if something bad was going on, I'd just come in, make a little joke. I was like, okay. And I think we needed it. They were dealing with very big, crazy themes. And if you're somebody in your 60s, and you're in the middle of like your life, and you're probably thinking of retirement, and you're like on tour, like you're like, what am I doing? And so I go, Yaka, what do you want? You want a cookie?

[31:35] Bobby Steggert: You're also minimizing the awareness that took for a young person. Most young people walk into a space and they're only thinking about themselves.

[31:40] Jenni Barber: I don't think about the 65-year-old's retirement plan.

[31:42] Bobby Steggert: Oh, really?

[31:42] Jenni Barber: Oh, male.

[31:43] Bobby Steggert: I don't know. I, yeah.

[31:50] Jenni Barber: Oh, God. I don't know. Maybe it's my dad and me. I really do. I such, I don't, I try not to be emotional, but I will be. I just love people. And I have such compassion for the things that people, to get to the point where you have been pursuing something your whole lifetime, and you're still doing. Alvin Epstein was on our tour. He was, I think it was 83 when we were on his tour. His Broadway debut was in King Lear with Orson Welles as the Fool. He lived with Marcel Marceau. He was in No Strings. And I just would sit with Alvin and tell me everything. And my dad and my mom really just, we love history. I love dramaturgy. I love anything that like tells us why we got to where we are. And he said, you know what No Strings is?

I said, are you kidding? I went to the University of Michigan, sir. But I was just to be able to be in those presences. I don't know. I, I, I loved it so much. And I learned so much. And then the text is constantly feeding you. So you're just like, you're plug yourself into this organism. And you're like, ah, I'm just, I'm growing from this.

[32:54] Bobby Steggert: So what about now? What is it like to be an elder stateswoman in a commercial Broadway show? What roles are you taking on now?

[33:02] Jenni Barber: Really I'm the newcomer in the group. I was not on the tour with everyone. So I know my role in many ways at first is to be a helpful guest. How can I be helpful? What have you been doing already? How can I contribute to what's going on? What I love about theater and I hope that I model is that it's not just about the actors. We have such a lively backstage. We have a beautiful group of dressers and stage managers and crew that I knew from 12 years ago when I worked at the palace. And so it's so great to see those guys again. And I think as a caretaker is to come backstage and to say, we're only in this building for maybe four hours today, maybe many more hours on Sundays, but what are we going to do to keep it warm and light and helpful?

Now that we don't leave ourselves at the door, but we are going to not just the story and the piece, but we're going to serve the environment that we're in right now because we're here to, I don't know, to, to be together. So why not be together?

[33:59] Bobby Steggert: Have you figured out ways now that you're older to do all this without loss of self?

[34:03] Jenni Barber: Yeah. Therapy, a lot of therapy, meditation. It's very funny because the character I play in Beetlejuice is she's really obsessed with crystals and she's like a life coach and the whole thing. And my students who come to see the show, they're like, you're not quite off the edge like this, but do you remember when you brought that talking stone into class? I was like, yes, I do remember that. I think feeling just the ground, also knowing that creativity is transferable. It's not just about performing. It's not even about directing theater. It's about, so to sound like this is me, Halloween, we had Halloween at the theater and they were going to have some of the kids trick-or-treating and I didn't have a costume and have time to get a costume.

And so I was worried about it. And I was behind the park. I was like, what? Look at all the trees. Sorry. So I just went through the park and picked up all of these beautiful leaves. And then I made myself a leaf crown. I cleaned them. They weren't covered in, but they were clean. And it was very funny because everyone was like, did you buy those? I was like, no, I collected them in the park. And they were like, wow, you're one of a kind. And one goes, somebody goes, is that a turkey? Are you wearing, are you a turkey? But I, that was a creative act.

[35:10] Bobby Steggert: I think a homemade costume is always the way to go.

[35:13] Jenni Barber: Yes, always.

[35:14] Bobby Steggert: Let's just establish that right now.

[35:16] Jenni Barber: Let's establish that right now. A hundred percent.

[35:17] Bobby Steggert: Okay. The last thing I want to ask about is how you allow yourself to be more selfish in the right way these days.

[35:22] Jenni Barber: I think that age makes you, just forces you to, in terms of just like, my body is exhausted from the shows that I've done. So I have to, and maybe to serve the piece, I have to make sure that I am exercising in the right ways, that I'm eating in the right ways. And also that I'm really preserving my time, that I am, I'm having my drier time. I have to—

[35:45] Bobby Steggert: Do you call it my drier time?

[35:46] Jenni Barber: Sometimes.

[35:46] Bobby Steggert: I love that.

[35:47] Jenni Barber: My drier time.

[35:48] Bobby Steggert: Now you would have a book light in your drier time, wouldn't you?

[35:50] Jenni Barber: Oh, because I can't see anything. At the end of the day, I was like, I can't see you. But yeah, no, I need my time to be quiet and be able to think thoughts from the beginning down to the end. Right?

[36:00] Bobby Steggert: But having a child makes that hard.

[36:02] Jenni Barber: It's impossible.

[36:02] Bobby Steggert: Yeah.

[36:03] Jenni Barber: So while I'm here right now doing the show, I have been given some stretches of time where I can be alone. And because of the way I am, I will interrupt my time to go do something else, right? If somebody needs me or if I need to address something. But to be able to just sit and just think from one thing to the next, it's funny, I've never realized this until this week. I love working out, but I hate running. I hate it. And I was like, why do I, every time I start running, I'm just like, I want to get me out of here. I want to hate every single second of this. And I kept thinking, I realized my father died running. Of course, my body is going, no.

[36:36] Bobby Steggert: This is something that had never consciously occurred.

[36:39] Jenni Barber: Never consciously occurred to me. Never once. Because I never thought it through to the end. Is that interesting? So now I'm giving myself a break. I'm like, I don't have to. I don't. Or maybe I will, but I can address in a different way now. Now I don't have to hate it. I know why I feel a certain way about that. Because you know, when your body just rebels and just says no.

[36:58] Bobby Steggert: Physical knowledge.

[36:58] Jenni Barber: Yes, exactly. So learning that has been a huge part of my selfishness. Reading books, like reading books that I don't have to read for teaching or for directing or for just reading a book for pleasure.

[37:11] Bobby Steggert: Yeah.

[37:11] Jenni Barber: And then of course, that is a personal caretaking that gives you the energy to then turn outward again.

[37:16] Bobby Steggert: Yeah, because I love it. I know it's a real blessing. And the when it turns is when the other parts of me feel really abandoned. And I think that's where the rage would come or the self-defeat or self-sabotage or the escape running away. It's those parts are going, excuse me.

[37:34] Jenni Barber: We're going to take over here.

[37:35] Bobby Steggert: At what point? And what's funny is the caretaking part is why I want to talk about this one is that she does not want to talk about herself at all. And so only feel safe really talking to Bobby about it because it is a quiet part, right? It's a very quiet part.

[37:50] Jenni Barber: Doesn't want to be seen as anything but giving.

[37:52] Bobby Steggert: No, it doesn't. It doesn't. But the other parts are saying like, yeah, but also like you've been really like, what about us? So I'm trying to also address them and really give them as much attention as they need to because it's so necessary because they'll get mad.

[38:07] Jenni Barber: And when they get mad, in my experience, they will find a way to express themselves no matter what.

[38:13] Bobby Steggert: No matter what. And you almost can't believe it.

[38:16] Jenni Barber: Yeah. And I actually think that's what's funny is that's why they love when I'm on stage because they're like, we get to be nasty or tantrum or crazy. And I think it's funny that I play often roles of like, kind of people who always have at least a tantrum or two on stage. And I'm like, oh, that's because these parts are like, yes, time to rage. Get ready.

[38:35] Bobby Steggert: I so relate to that.

[38:37] Jenni Barber: Oh, it's the best. And telling you about Beetlejuice, I get to be wild on stage and I am. And it feels those parts of me feel so considered and they're so happy.

[38:47] Bobby Steggert: This is another point I want to make as we end, which is that if we give some of our most controlling parts a voice, they feel respected enough to let go. And that's when the other parts can come forward more healthfully.

[38:59] Jenni Barber: Absolutely. It's so true. Isn't it funny that way?

[39:04] Bobby Steggert: Yeah. Yeah. And honestly, parts work has shifted everything for me and really helped me find the language to be compassionate to all those parts and not punish them.