This transcript was automatically generated and might contain errors.

[0:00] Bobby Steggert: I'm Bobby Steggart, and this is The Quiet Part Out Loud.

[0:15] Bobby Steggert: Nothing preoccupies us more persistently than the fear of death. Sometimes we're conscious of it, but more often, we're not. We have a handy thing called denial, which keeps us at a soft distance from the reality of our inevitable demise. I attended a funeral last year and didn't realize I was feeling anything more than a general sadness until I looked down and saw that my legs were violently shaking. My body was expressing what my mind simply couldn't tolerate, and this is while I was literally, with my own eyes, staring at a coffin. Another way in which we ignore our fragility is how often we take our bodies for granted. Unless you've faced a particular injury or a medical challenge in your earlier years, it's possible to take on the breathtakingly naive belief that your body is invincible.

Even today, at the age of 45, I'll be walking up the subway stairs and have a momentary frustration with someone holding up the line as they struggle at the steps. There's a part of me that simply won't, or can't, consider that that will one day be me. We often assume that our bodies can serve at our will forever, so deeply unappreciative of the millions of biological processes happening in every second, with every breath and every beat of your heart. The irony is that in our storytelling, heroes are inherently people who in some way have the courage to face their mortality head-on. We prescribe to these characters almost superhuman powers not simply because of their daring feats, but centrally because they're willing to stare into the abyss that most of us avoid altogether.

Patrick Stafford is such a hero who has lived daily with the knowledge that his body was betraying him. He has a rare kidney disorder that has resulted in two kidney transplants, the second of which happened just this week. Patrick is a talented actor who studied musical theater with many of my contemporaries at the Boston Conservatory, but it would be darker and more complicated work that would attract him to Los Angeles, where he's had a success balancing his love for live theater with lots of television. Patrick takes on a disarmingly realist perspective on his life. In listening back to the episode, I was struck by how straightforward his expression of a very complex struggle is. Yet what has enabled him to live fully, to take risks and pursue his goals, has been the lack of options.

His choice has only been to move forward, to meet each challenge, and to do it without much complaint. You'll learn a lot about transplants and donations, about artistry that is deeply informed by a more intimate relationship to mortality, and I think you'll walk away in gratitude for Patrick's refreshing honesty about the utter uncertainty in life that most of us dare not consider. Spoiler alert, he is currently recovering from surgery and there are very positive signs that his body is accepting a new kidney. Stick around at the end of the episode for an update directly from him. Let's start at the very present. You are about to have your second kidney transplant.

[3:27] Patrick Stafford: Correct.

[3:28] Bobby Steggert: What is the history of the kidney disease that you have? When was it discovered that you have it?

[3:33] Patrick Stafford: So I was at a Cincinnati Reds baseball game and we were like feet up on the back of the chair in front of me and I started poking at my shins and pushing on my shin and it would stay like an indentation and that's a result of retaining water. At the time we didn't really know but my mom was very suspicious because she was like this doesn't happen to other people and you push on it and it would just stay and then eventually the water would fill back up and then because of that my mom took me to our family doctor and he checked my blood pressure and he did a couple things and instantly in that moment he was like he has to go to children's hospital now. It was an emergency. Yeah, he was like I don't know exactly what's wrong with him but it's not good he needs to go and I went from there to children's hospital checked in and they did all this stuff to try to figure it out and I was in the second grade and they realized that I had a disease called FSGS which is focal segmental glomerular sclerosis.

An easier way of saying it is it's the filters in the kidneys get scarred but the reason why they get scarred is because the immune system identifies that there is a disease inside of them and so the immune system goes in there to kill the disease and what really ends up making the kidneys not function is the immune system scarring the kidney so it seems like it's like an autoimmune disease but it doesn't fit like the classic definition but my immune system is in essence attacking the kidney and causing the kidneys to not work over time that's the scarring and when you scar the filters it can't be repaired.

[5:15] Bobby Steggert: And you had no symptoms before you had that sort of shin moment at the baseball game?

[5:20] Patrick Stafford: If I cried like really aggressively something really upset me the next day my eyes would be swollen shut could barely see out of them and I'm not sure exactly what the phenomenon of why that happens but I remember like my dog died and my eyes were so swollen shut that my mom like put sunglasses on me and was like get on the bus you're still going to school and like wearing sunglasses in my class my teacher being like you have to take the sunglasses off Patrick and me being like no and to the point that I got sent to the principal's office the principal and all of them thought that my mom was like beating me in essence because her eyes were so swollen and then my mom was like don't worry about it this happens to him when he cries blah blah blah so that was because it wasn't happening normally to anyone else and then this thing on my legs and then my blood pressure was sky high because like when your kidneys start to fail your blood pressure goes up so then I had biopsies they tried to repress my immune system so they put me on like different steroids and things but that made me get like pneumonia twice I had shingles as a child I had a biopsy in the third grade then I think I had another biopsy later and basically once they knew it was FSGS they said that you'll have to have a kidney transplant someday.

[6:39] Bobby Steggert: I've always heard you only need one good kidney. Was one of your kidneys worse off than the other? How did they determine which would be transplanted and when?

[6:44] Patrick Stafford: So they just guesstimated that I would be sometime in my teenage years like 13, 14, 15 just based on how they knew FSGS to work but FSGS as a disease is a mystery like it doesn't happen in certain parts of the world it's more common in African-American people they don't even really know why I have it they think sometimes it's a bacterial infection that advances into a kidney disease like an ear infection or a sore throat or something your immune system does what it thinks is best for you you do only need one kidney which is a blessing because everyone has two so they can give them but you don't really know how bad a kidney your kidneys just they age and that's like why pets often have kidney disease when they get older because their kidneys don't work as well and cats particularly because they don't drink water blah blah blah but they don't really know.

[7:44] Bobby Steggert: As a seven-year-old boy before you got the culmination of all this information, do you remember what it meant to you just the information that you would one day maybe get a transplant?

[7:50] Patrick Stafford: I remember when I was in the hospital children's hospital I remember that I was in the bed of the hospital and they like pulled my mother outside there Dr. Fryer was the doctor she was pretty amazing and she pulled my mom outside it feels like a movie scene and I could see her through and I remember when they told my mother that I was going to have a kidney transplant she almost passed out so I remember that like always gets me because it's almost like you wish you don't see things like that because then it drives home how difficult it is because parents put on good faces but the things slip up and things the truth comes out and my mother's motherly my father is very I will fix things I will throw money at it wasn't who's the best doctor or is there something we can do but their responses alone made me realize how much of a big deal it was.

[9:58] Bobby Steggert: And did that then earlier than it should have make you aware of your own mortality?

[10:00] Patrick Stafford: I think absolutely you just know like kidney transplant bad surgery bad people that go into surgery oftentimes die so yes I definitely had that fear and my mom being upset about it I think it drove home how important it was and then like I said the pneumonia the shingles the biopsies this is happening to my friends so when that happens you start to think this is unfair or am I going to die and also not wanting to be a burden more so than you already are to your family but not really knowing how to navigate it an interesting thing about all this is that I can't really remember a time in my life where it wasn't a part of it.

[10:51] Bobby Steggert: Do you remember how you once you decided that there would be surgery how you most generally coped with it?

[10:57] Patrick Stafford: My parents did a pretty good job of treating me like it was a normal thing other than the hospital visits and other than the occasional bad day of hearing something horrible I was pretty shielded I played sports I wasn't limited that much I did get sick more than other kids because they were messing with my immune system.

[11:19] Bobby Steggert: Was there any risk to overexertion of your body, anything like that? Did you feel like you had to be careful in any way?

[11:24] Patrick Stafford: Not really there wasn't really a thing I did have for example when I got into puberty age so I did outlast their estimate which is a good thing you want to keep your original kidneys as long as possible because that means you're going to keep the transplanted kidney as long as possible because one of the things that people don't know about kidney transplantation is that they don't last forever you're not getting a new organ that can last the rest of your lifespan no but 15 years is good 25 years is amazing sometimes it's less than 15 years sometimes 17 years it doesn't last as long that's why I'm on track to get my second one in April.

[11:59] Bobby Steggert: And will the second one be in the same location or a different location?

[12:01] Patrick Stafford: So that when they put a new kidney in it's in the front like behind the abdomen in the front pelvic area your two kidneys that you're born with are in your back and for evolution's sake keep them guarded by the muscular in the back and they're buried deep down in there so when they put a new one in they still have to attach it to your bladder because the kidneys create urine so what I have is a third kidney in the right front side so I have three tubes that go into my bladder for the urine most people only have two because they only have two kidneys they won't take them out unless they're toxic or causing problems so I'll actually be someone walking this planet with four kidneys the two original ones just stop working and they've scarred over time they're like only a shadow of what they used to be they're there you could see them on an x-ray but they're not normal adult size kidneys they're atrophied they don't really serve a purpose and the other thing that can happen with this particular disease I have which I was lucky on the first transplant was the disease can jump to the new kidney and do the same thing to the new kidney with the scarring and all that I was lucky because now I'm 23 years almost that I've had this kidney which by the way my mother gave to me.

[12:33] Bobby Steggert: Your mother was your first donor?

[12:34] Patrick Stafford: That's yes.

[12:35] Bobby Steggert: What did that do to your relationship?

[12:37] Patrick Stafford: It made it it was almost like she was the person to do it because she was at every doctor's appointment she knew everything it was almost like she became a doctor my mother was reading books she knew the lingo she knew what was happening so it made sense that she was.

[12:54] Patrick Stafford: Brother and my sister and my dad were all tested and my mother was the best match. I'm sure she has said it was like a thoughtless decision. It was an immediate yes. Oh yeah. She says things like she'd give me her other kidney if she could. She also loves to say things like I might not do these things. I might not be on a stage or I might not be on a television show but my kidney has. She loves that. I'm wondering if a teenager, any teenager, can experience the gratitude that an adult might understand more. Meaning that when it happened and she was your donor, did you understand the sacrifice? I think that because it was her, it made it a little... I think now I understand it more because it is my mother and my mother will do anything for me, go to hell and back.

So I think that you accept that a little bit more. I will always be grateful to her. I think she's like an angel among us, not only for doing it, but also for every doctor's appointment. There used to be times when I was a child, I remember I'd go to these doctor's appointments and I'd just be having a really bad day. It always gets you a little emotional. It was like it was outer body for me. I didn't want to talk to these doctors. I didn't want them to exist. And my mom would just look at the doctor. She'd look at me and she'd be like, she'd say something along the lines of, he's not going to be talking today. I'll be doing all the talking for him. Because as a child, a doctor comes in the room and it rarely means something good.

And so when the doctor would come in, I would clam up or become a brat. And my mom would almost, it was almost like she was an interpreter. He would say something to her or me, and then I wouldn't respond to him out of spite. And then my mom would be like, is that okay with you? And I would respond to my mom just because it was almost like, fuck you, doctor. Even though it's not the doctor's fault. It was just this part of me that was like.

[15:02] Bobby Steggert: That's important to discuss. Did you feel a real rage at the injustice of what you're going through?

[15:09] Patrick Stafford: I did. I definitely did. I think it manifested in a bunch of different ways. Being upset, being angry, angry at people. Sometimes even through my older, I remember when I was at college and I went away and had this huge, massive thing happen to me. And then I went back and everyone is caring about who's getting the lead in the musical or, you know, exactly how you should be if you're in a college acting program. But after having a kidney transplant and going back, it's like, I don't care about being the lead in this or whatever. I survived. I'm not patting myself on the back, but there was this weird place when I got back to college where I actually had to start going to therapy because I started to resent the people around me because it felt like they weren't acknowledging this thing that happened to me.

[15:57] Bobby Steggert: They didn't get it.

[15:59] Patrick Stafford: They didn't get it. And that's not everyone. There were people that were certainly there for me. I'm not shortchanging people. But just by the nature of being 20, 19, in college, your brain doesn't have time for someone's kidney transplant that happened in Ohio when you're going to school in Boston. You know what I'm really curious about? Because you went to school with friends of mine at the Boston Conservatory and know the types of kids who went there, extremely talented. You were part of their cohorts. And yet, I know you as an actor, as someone who has explored really complex, dark material, you've turned towards dramas. You've done a lot of TV and film. Do you think that your lifelong medical experience informed the kind of work you wanted to do?

[16:43] Patrick Stafford: I think, yes. I think that when you go through something like that, the gate that allows you to access those emotions is not locked. It's just like, you can access things quicker. I played, like you said, a lot of darker, crazy people. And I think a lot of people shy away from wanting to go to those dark, crazy places, either because they don't know how to or they don't want to. And so there's two sides of it. You feel like sometimes when I do those things, it's healing for me. It's a release. I felt like I needed to do something that excited me more. And I don't know if that's kidney transplant related, but it feels, talking to you now, it feels like maybe yes. For some reason, I excel more at those things.

And I don't know. I think that it could be because those things happened to me. Or like I said, I have better access to it. I don't know. And like we said, not many kids, nor many teenagers, really very consciously have a relationship to their mortality. And what did it mean to you that you had touched it in a way that so many other kids hadn't?

[17:50] Patrick Stafford: Yeah, I think it did. It created some resentment. I think I wanted more acknowledgement that this thing was happening to me. So that was where the resentment happened. But you can't, some people aren't capable of that. And also, my whole life, I tried my best to not let it be a thing that would inhibit me or follow me around. And a lot of times, it would seem like I did myself a disservice by not allowing it to come to the forefront. It wasn't a secret by any means. But I wanted my life to be as normal as possible. So I behaved in ways that I didn't have this kidney problem, right?

[18:27] Bobby Steggert: Was it a pretending? Was it a stoicism? Like, how would you describe the sort of wall that you put up?

[18:32] Patrick Stafford: I think just a blatant denial. I'm not going to let this thing get me. I'm going to be on the basketball team. I think I know that I found theater because of this, actually. I come from a very athletic family. And I played a lot of sports as a kid. I was on the freshman basketball team. And they never put me in because I was tiny. Because when you have kidney problems as a young person, your body filters out growth hormone. Because the filters aren't working properly. This is an unfortunate byproduct of having kidney disease. The things that you're supposed to keep, you don't keep. You pee them out. Because it's almost like they're malfunctioning. And then eventually, they don't work. I have a lot of protein in my urine now because my kidneys aren't working.

But when I was 15 years old, I was a head shorter, if not more. I had to give myself a shot in my leg of growth hormone so that it would be, I'm 5'9 now. I probably would be 5'6, 5'5. There's nothing wrong with that. But it affected my ability to play the sports and the things that my family did. So you find something that you can do as a small person. And I happen to be decent at it. I'd done some things when I was younger, like the narrator of the kids choir, whatever, with a little script. And I had a character. And once I got that sort of thing of people clapping for me acting, I didn't need the sports anymore. I also didn't need to be 6' tall.

[20:06] Bobby Steggert: That's right. Did it also help you forget? Was theater an escape in that way?

[20:06] Patrick Stafford: For sure. I think that's what a lot of actors that have trauma or things that have happened to them, it's a way for approval. You're in a high school musical and people come and they laugh. Or they might make them cry. And that's validation. And in that moment that you're doing it, it's escapism. You're playing a character. It's a form of denial in a way. I'm denying my reality for the two hours or the couple hours that I'm in rehearsal with like-minded people. And you get to be creative and it's an outlet for sure. So I do think it was definitely an escape, but also validation. My brother was a college basketball player. So my parents, that was well-defined. This is a successful child. So in a way, I had to find a way to be my version of a successful child. They didn't pressure me that way, but I had a brother that excelled in sports. So I'm not going to be that. So I found something else and I was good at it.

[21:11] Bobby Steggert: So I'm curious about the experience in your body outside of the literal times that you're getting surgeries and transplants. As you have grown and as you've had a career and you've been in your 20s and 30s, is it sometimes hard? Do you experience symptoms that have led to this point where you now need a new transplant?

[21:31] Patrick Stafford: Yes. I think the main thing is fatigue because when you have toxins running through your body and you're not getting the nutrients because you are peeing them out, in essence, it's not going to operate as well. And it's a domino effect. So the other thing is brain fog. I struggle sometimes with memorizing things because my brain's just not working as well. And memory, I would say, is probably the biggest. Fatigue, I could get really tired. Right now, I wouldn't really want to do a play. It's too intense.

[22:06] Bobby Steggert: Would you be able to? Could you push yourself to?

[22:10] Patrick Stafford: It depends on the part. If I came in and did one scene and my rehearsal schedule was less, I could probably do it. But kidney transplantation is also a little bit... The scheduling is strange. So many things have to line up that it's hard to know exactly when you're going to have it until you're going to have it. I'm lucky enough to have a donor so I can schedule it. They've gone through all the tests that they need to go to, and then you line up each other's schedules. And that makes it a little easier to plan your life around. Other people aren't so fortunate. They're on a list. A lot of people get kidneys from deceased people. There's many organs that can be transplanted. Lungs, heart, liver.

Kidney is actually one that's a little bit more widespread. It's a little easier to do, as we said earlier, that there are two kidneys. So it's easier to get one. But yeah, I think the scheduling of it is really what has limited my ability to do a play. Because it's like, my kidneys are not doing great. I'd hate to get into this play and then take a turn for the worst. Or maybe the play might make it worse than it is because of the exertion and the stress on the body. So then I don't want to have to get out of the play. As actors, we're always worried about how we affect other people. And people are very accommodating. But in the end, you don't want to be the guy two weeks before the show opens that has to be replaced.

[23:40] Bobby Steggert: Is this the first time in your career that it's been debilitating to this point? Or have there been other times where you've had to really take a step back because of how you have suffered in some way?

[23:46] Patrick Stafford: Yes, because I started in college when my original kidneys failed. I would throw up every morning. I couldn't eat. I lost a bunch of weight because I became so toxic. The toxicity of my body was so much that it was just hard to keep things down. So then I couldn't really be a very good student at school. So I had to pack up everything and go home. And then when I came back, I was ready to be a student again. I'm in a good place right now, but we've been watching the markers, the lab results and everything. So I've been I'm a little bit better. I'm not having that wake up feeling sick thing yet. And that's good. That's a good thing, because you want to be in more optimal health when you have a transplant.

So now it is a hindrance in a way. It's more about right now long term things like I'm not going to audition for a play that's going to happen in the next six months. Because I don't know how I'll feel after the transplant. I don't know. The healing process is several weeks. And then you have to go back to the hospital function. They're really afraid of you rejecting the kidney.

[25:04] Bobby Steggert: I see. There's a chance that your body just might not accommodate it.

[25:04] Patrick Stafford: Yes. So your body thinks the kidney is a foreign object. So it immediately wants to kill it. It's like having a splinter. They want the splinter out. This does not belong here. And that's why matching a kidney is so important, because you want the best match that you possibly can get, because if it matches, it's less likely to be rejected. Now, I have to take medication every 12 hours since the moment that I had the kidney transplant, because anti-rejection medication is really the only way to keep the kidney. And the only way you could have a kidney transplanted without medication is if you were a perfect match. And that's very rare. It's almost like you'd have to get a kidney from a twin, an identical twin. So your mom was close, but she wasn't your twin.

[25:48] Patrick Stafford: They're also from two parents, but my mom ended up being out. There's like a point system. And my mom was like a five out of six that they do it. It's tissue typing, blood type. But now the science has gotten a little bit better. Before the transplant this time, I'll have these infusions for seven weeks. That's sort of prep my body, changing the sensitivity of my immune system. So that it's like they desensitize your immune system. So that when you get it, it's like the immune systems, oh, maybe we're okay. This kidney, we don't really know. And then you take the anti-rejection medication. So you're constantly trying to fool your immune system. And they said, what can affect me? Anti-rejection medication can affect you because that isn't again, suppressing your immune system.

So I'm more likely to get sick because not only is it keeping me from rejecting my kidney, but it's also keeping me from fighting things off. So COVID was a very stressful time because my immune system would have to fight off COVID. I'm one of those people when they say people with immune suppress, they should have the vaccine. It always made me crazy when people were like, I won't get the vaccine because I'm one of these people that has to get the vaccine. And you're not getting the vaccine could make me sick. I'm preaching to a choir, I'm sure. But those are the little things that become problematic by having kidney transplants. If I go to the major event, or if I travel, am I going to get sick? Because my immune system is suppressed.

[27:18] Bobby Steggert: So has that made your life feel necessarily smaller in some ways? And I don't mean smaller in terms of value, but smaller in terms of the possibility of where you can go and what you can do.

[27:28] Patrick Stafford: A little bit. I feel like I've been able to do most of the things I wanted to do in my life. I'm pretty good about being safe, but not being anxiety-ridden. And the truth is, after you have the kidney transplant, there are things that improve, like what you can eat and salt intake and stuff like that. So I actually, people are like, oh, you shouldn't drink. I'm like, actually, drinking alcohol isn't a big deal if your kidneys are working well. It's a big deal if they're not.

[27:57] Bobby Steggert: I see. Looking forward to a drink in a year is what you're saying.

[28:02] Patrick Stafford: I mean, I'll still have a drink a little bit, but a hangover is guaranteed if I have one drink. So it's why would I want to do that?

[28:08] Bobby Steggert: How has the uncertainty affected by having been through this before in another era of life?

[28:13] Patrick Stafford: I think that I'm not as scared of the surgery as I was the first time. I think that is a big difference. But then there are things that I dread because I know what they're going to do to me. And so there's ignorance is bliss, but also knowing it's working against each other. For example, when after I have the kidney transplant, they have a stent that keeps that tube that we were talking about earlier open into the bladder because the kidney must get rid of the urine. This is a complication. They can't go in there and fix that if you're stitched up. So they keep a stent, but that stent can't stay in you forever. So how do they get the stent out? They go through your urethra and pull it out.

[28:58] Bobby Steggert: That sounds horrific.

[29:07] Patrick Stafford: Yeah. Yeah. So that is something that I don't want to experience again. But the first time it happened to me, I was kind of like, I don't really know what this happened. I don't know what it's going to feel like that kind of thing. So it's good knowing some things. It's not sort of good knowing some things. When all these things happen to you, when you have a kidney disease or some sort of disease, though, you just don't have options. People say that to me. They'll be like, how do you feel? How are you going to? And I'm like, I don't have an option. What other way am I supposed to feel about it? I have to do this.

[29:34] Bobby Steggert: So this is the realist part of you.

[29:42] Patrick Stafford: Yeah. I have to do it. I want to survive. I want to live. I can't. It's I can't be too angry about it. I can't be too sad about it because I just I have to do it.

[29:52] Bobby Steggert: So what you're saying is that there is a simplicity to it in a very complicated way.

[29:57] Patrick Stafford: There's a simplicity to it. A very complicated thing is very that I boil it down to a very simple thing because that is the option. The other option is dialysis, but I'm lucky enough to have a donor. There's like 90,000 people, maybe 100,000 people that are waiting for a kidney. Thirteen people a day die waiting for a kidney.

[30:21] Bobby Steggert: How did you find this person?

[30:21] Patrick Stafford: So. I. As soon as you started talking about it, right, I went to my family. My sister was very interested in doing it. But then as part of the process, they interview you, they find out your medical history. My sister had skin cancer once. If you have skin cancer, melanoma in particular, you can't get a kidney because the transfer from her kidney into my body and with the suppressive immune system I have, I could get melanoma. So my sister's out, right, so my brothers weren't exactly on board. And that's that's a whole other thing. One of my brothers I'm not very close to my other brother is very much a hypochondriac. So asking a hypochondriac to give you a kidney is not really a go. My dad is too old and has many ailments.

You can't have high blood pressure. You can't have diabetes. You can't be overweight. You can't have ever had cancer. There's so many things that eliminate you from being able to give even do a psychological assessment that you're a sound mind. That you can handle the complications of the process.

[31:31] Bobby Steggert: Yeah. And what it feels like, are you going to give the kidney and you're going to feel like you needed more recognition? Are you fine? There's a lot of things that, why did I do this? I should have kept it for myself. This was a bad choice. So there's so many things that can eliminate someone. Getting someone to be able to do it is really difficult. And that's why it's so important that people are organ donors. I just need to say that. It is imperative that if it's something that you could do, that you register. Because like I said, there are people that are on dialysis, there are people that are suffering, that are waiting and then they die because they didn't get it. It's just the world would be a better place if more people donated organs.

And I've seen it too. I go to these clinics and I see people that are in wheelchairs and their skin colors change. And then they get a kidney transplant and they're like, they blossom. They're a whole new person. Just one kidney can change the trajectory of someone's entire existence.

[32:27] Patrick Stafford: So once I started talking about it with people, certain people would say, I'll give you a kidney. I'll give you a kidney. Not everyone's followed through. My friend, Damon went through the whole process. My partner, Robert went through the whole process. My sister's husband went through the whole process. And then my longtime high school friend, Mandy went through the process. Again, there are people on the list that have no one that is able to give them a kidney and I have options. So it's a massive gift, a massive blessing to have that. But starting off, you have to have blood type that works, right? So just a little information is I'm a positive. I can only take a kidney from someone that's a negative or a positive or O. Because O is universal. So several people that I just listed were O. So that already got them to the next place, right?

[33:25] Patrick Stafford: So anyway, in the end, they came up with two people that they thought were the best. There's like a board of doctors. They read everything about this. It's a massive, it's almost like a study almost. It's like meeting of minds to see who's the best person for this. And they factored all these things and they came back and they said, these two people are the people that could do it. And my question was, who's the best of the two? And they said, there's some factors here. One person's older, one person's younger. That could be a thing. But ultimately, we don't see any difference between the two of them. It's really up to you. So they went back to both people that were able to do it. And it really came down to who felt more compelled.

You want someone that's going to give you a kidney that it almost feels like it's their calling, like they were meant to do it because then they're more motivated. They're also, it should feel like a calling. There's no better way for me to put it.

[34:28] Bobby Steggert: I also would imagine that prevents you from feeling any guilt if that's what they're feeling.

[34:34] Patrick Stafford: Correct. Absolutely. You want someone that is fully on board and not doing it out of obligation, not doing it because they think they should. In the end, it's my long high school friend. Her name is Mandy and she's like a beautiful individual. Didn't even hesitate about it. When I told her, she said, I'll do it. What's the number? Sent her the number, set up all the appointments on her own. Highly motivated to do this. Some other people, it's in the number, maybe not called, maybe have to remind them, all this. She's turning in her results and all that. I want to tell this one little story about her because I think it's, I just like it. During this process, we become even closer because we're close, but she lives in Ohio.

And I said to her, do you remember how or when we became friends? When did that happen? I don't really have a recollection myself. And she goes, oh yeah, I absolutely remember. And she goes, we were in Spanish class. And I remember I had lost a bunch of my friends. In high schools, you lose friends. I'm not saying death, like arguments, whatever. She was feeling alone in her move from middle school to high school. That's a big deal. Eighth grade to freshman, where I come from, the middle schools bleed into the high school. She was isolated. And she said, I came in there and I sat next to her in Spanish class and I knew her name because I knew of her. Then I said, are you Mandy Whetstone? This is her telling me this, by the way, because I have no recollection. I say, are you Mandy Whetstone? And she goes, yeah. And I looked at her and I said, I think we're going to be great friends.

[36:02] Bobby Steggert: Oh my God.

[36:04] Patrick Stafford: That's so sweet. I had no memory of this, number one. And then we are. It's so like, sometimes the world gives you like the little beautiful moments and little beautiful memories that make things make sense. I can't even imagine a more profound gift either. There's no more profound gift that anyone could give you. I mean, it's life other than a mother. It's very motherly, number one, but she's giving me this gift. And, you know, the other very interesting thing about her doing it is science is so incredible now when it comes to organ donation that she's doing the surgery in Cincinnati, Ohio. They put the organ into this special machine that they have. They hook it up. They don't freeze it, but they cool it right. Basically, they run other things through it to preserve it. They put it on an airplane. They GPS track it all the way to Los Angeles, and then they put her kidney inside of me. So we're not even in the same hospital.

[37:05] Bobby Steggert: That's extraordinary.

[37:07] Patrick Stafford: And the other advance, just for anyone that might be thinking about this that's listening, kidney transplants used to be very complicated to be the donor. They opened you up almost like a shark bite, right? Pried you open because it was so hard to get it, right? Because again, like it's so protected. So they had to go in there to get it. Now they do it laparoscopically. So they make a small incision, two, three inches max. They go in, they do all of it through cameras. They put it in a little pouch and they pull it out through there. So her recovery now is one, two days in the hospital, where the recovery used to be harder for the donor than it was for the transplant recipient. They're making advancements that donation is easier.

We're not saying it's easy. It's definitely not easy. It's definitely a massive sacrifice. But she just said to me, when we talked about it, she goes, I have two. I'd much rather you be alive. I actually visited her recently and I went to Ohio. She has children. It was important for me to see her and meet her children and meet her family. And they could ask me any questions. And when I came to meet her, she had a shirt on that said, kidneys are made for sharing.

[38:21] Bobby Steggert: That's wonderful. I want to end our conversation about future because I think of being an artist as one of the most uncertain choices you could ever make in terms of being able to plan anything, especially a future. And I'm wondering how the uncertainty that's sort of threaded all throughout your life affects the uncertainty of being an artist. Do you think it's complementary?

[38:42] Patrick Stafford: The Realist Part Out Loud is a production of the Center for Autism and Related Disorders in the United States. We're talking about healthcare. Right? So, there is that thing that hovers over me. I've been fortunate enough to work and get healthcare through that, and make that happen for myself. But sometimes, that is the scariest part. I don't have healthcare because I might get a cold and need an antibiotic. I have expensive medications that I take every 12 hours that I absolutely must take. It's non-negotiable. You know, that's the most important thing. It's right up there with getting the kidney, is the medication that you take. So that can get stressful. That part of it can be anxiety-ridden.

I wish that healthcare was cheaper. I wish it was more accessible to everyone. So that uncertainty of healthcare could sometimes be a burden. I think in a way, it's helped me to take a bit more chances because the life and death of it all, I'm not going to waste my life doing something that I don't want to be doing, or be somewhere that I don't want to be, because I understand in a very simple way how precious it is. You know? So yeah, I think acting will always be uncertain. You are signing up for uncertainty. You just accept that. A lot of times, you wish it wasn't that way, and some people are very lucky that they make a shitload of money, and they get massive contracts, or whatever they're doing.

Fame. But I think more than anything, I look at it as, I just want to be doing what I want to be doing. Because life is precious. I've had limitations in not being able to do the things I want to do, being in the hospital or whatever. And so when you get out of the hospital, it's like freedom to find what makes you happy and go for it. I think it makes me a little bolder.

[40:34] Bobby Steggert: So this is really about risk, isn't it? Because one could respond to what you've experienced with constantly grasping at stability, and it sounds like it has inspired you to risk things in your life.

[40:47] Patrick Stafford: I think so. I think that's one of the blessings of it all, is that you have to take risks as an actor, even on stage or just professional decisions that you're making. But yeah, I do think that has made me more likely, a little braver. When you are faced with your mortality, I wanted to read this quote to you. I don't know. It might not work in this, but this chef, he sums it up to me in a way that I think makes sense. And it might make sense to some people that are listening to this. But he says, I believe there's really two species of human beings. The first species is the most common. There's more of them. There are individuals who, like we all, are born into a certain world, and they become a product of that world.

They absorb that environment that they were born into. They become an extension of it. They become part of it. The rare species, in my opinion, is the individual who has been damaged as a child. They have suffered misfortune and great tragedy. This doesn't mean that they are better people. It just means they have suffered. And very few individuals suffer that tragedy. But what happens is an invisible shell covers you. It protects you. So you don't absorb the world you're brought into. You don't become part of the world. You absorb that world.

[42:03] Bobby Steggert: That's amazing. What's the chef's name?

[42:05] Patrick Stafford: Marco Pierre White. I don't know what he's talking about when he says damaged as a child. I don't know what that is experienced for him. But I think that there is a part of me that identifies with that. Because when I was a kid, something about what happened to me has made me more of an observer of life. And being able to really clock people. Like when I was a child, I could read a doctor. This doctor is going to say something bad to me. And when I was a child, I remember there was a time where my parents, it switched. Where they became people that didn't know the answers, that had children, that did a very courageous thing. And their job is to make you feel like they have the answers. But they don't. And I think a lot of kids don't see that part of their parents.

And their parents to this day, they'll be 55 years old, whatever, however old they are. And their parents are still that solid rock for them that have all the answers. My relationship with my parents is, they don't necessarily have all the answers, and they're just people. But I respect him in a way because I see how much courage it took.

[43:12] Bobby Steggert: That quote talks about being somewhat on the outside, absorbing the world. But you're also saying something different, which is that it helped you to understand the world more clearly. And I've always experienced you as someone who is disarmingly straightforward and extremely honest with what you think and what you feel. And I wonder if that's part of it, part of the risks you're able to take are that you just know how to put it all out there.

[43:41] Patrick Stafford: I think maybe that's right. And I think that's the goal, right? The honesty. Be it in your life or when you're on stage, you're always reaching towards honesty. I think maybe my superpower might be that this thing that happened to me created this unavoidable honesty. Or maybe it's I don't have time for the other thing. The bullshit, perhaps. Thank you for saying that. It's definitely a really nice thing to say. I'd rather be someone that's known for honesty than known for bullshit. But I don't know. Let me just first say, too, you don't need to have a child trauma to have honesty. It created something in me involuntarily that made me a more honest actor, a more honest person. Maybe because I couldn't handle the bullshit because I didn't have time for it.

Maybe because of the way I listen, observe, pick up on things that maybe other people just aren't able to pick up on. And when you're a child, it's almost survival, right? If the doctor is going to come in and they're going to give you a shot, I'm going to read all the signs. Is he going to give me the is he going to do the thing that's going to cause pain for me today? Do I need to put my guard up today? Do I need to deny this moment of truth that he's giving me? You read people very young. I just think that maybe because it happened so young for me, I've developed it. I think everyone has the ability. Some people just don't go to those places. And some people are hurt and then hide from reality.

[45:06] Bobby Steggert: It sounds like you were hurt and you became extremely intimate with reality.

[45:09] Patrick Stafford: Yeah, I think that's right. That's actually makes me a little emotional. I should think about sometimes you think, is that a good thing? Maybe the acting is the escapism from the blatant reality that you can't hide from.

[45:25] Bobby Steggert: I don't know. This is the last question I want to ask you. And I'm thinking about you going back to college or the Boston Conservatory and your classes concerned with who got the lead in Chicago or whatever. What is it that's sitting in the reality that you do right now that you think most of us are asleep to? As you observe the world, as you observe your friends, your family, as you observe the whole reality around you, other than the preciousness of time, which you've already mentioned, what do you think we're not seeing that you see right now?

[45:59] Patrick Stafford: That's a very interesting question. I think that, I'm not sure if this is unique to me, but I think that people are listening to each other. I think I noticed that more than maybe the average person. I'm not sure why, but I think with our phones, we're like reprogramming ourselves right now and people aren't looking at each other and reading each other. You can learn, you can sit in silence with someone and you can get a sense of what's happening with them. But we're like turning off these mechanisms to read people. I'm saying like, take them in, feel, absorb part of their being, listen to what they have to say. Sometimes they're not even saying what they're meaning, but how they're saying it can be indicative to what they're hiding, what they might not. But I just feel like there's this epidemic of people going inward and not outward. I think that might, that makes me sad, actually. I think that might be something that I think I'd notice more.

[47:08] Bobby Steggert: You know what, in terms of you, what makes sense to me about what you observe is that you've had to go back to the basics, right? How do I keep this body healthy? How do I keep this body thriving? And it's connected to this desire to go back to the basics of why we're all here. And you see this breaking down of the most important part of what it is to be human, which is to really see and hear one another and to connect to one another. It makes total sense that's what you're noticing.

[47:36] Patrick Stafford: Yeah. A lot of people take their bodies for granted. That's like the very basic thing. When you have a disease and you need a transplant, and people out there are abusing their bodies, and a lot of people have reasons, trauma or hiding or whatever. But I do notice that a lot. People oftentimes aren't taking care of themselves because it's not as precious to them right now, their life. The breathing in the day, the ability to run a mile and a half without being out of breath, those sort of things. You should never take that kind of stuff for granted because, you know, your body's a machine and it's not going to be great forever.

[48:20] Bobby Steggert: What are you most looking forward to about post-recovery?

[48:24] Patrick Stafford: I feel like right now my life has been on a pause and it's been a longer pause than I wanted, be it my career. Just personal things, going to the gym as much. I just feel like I'm looking forward to the pushing play instead of pushing pause on things so that I can be more goal-oriented. And I'm not like, I shouldn't do that because it's not good for my transplant, or I shouldn't audition for that role because it might be too stressful for me. Or I'd like to go to the gym five days a week and be a little more ripped than I am, but my body can't accommodate that right now. I think that is probably the thing I'm looking forward to the most, is not having something that inhibits my ability to be the way I was before. I've had to press pause.

[49:21] Patrick Stafford: So I'm back home now. It's been one week since I had the transplant, which is crazy to think about, and everything went well. All my labs, everything is great. I'm overwhelmed by all the love and the support and the gratitude I have for Mandy, who donated the kidney. She's also doing great. She's an incredible human being. It's hard to describe because I think it's rare in life that you wait for something and you have such a massive weight looming over you, and then you have a surgery, and then it's just instantly better. It's like the definition of being joyful. I think what I've learned is that life is just so precious, and it should be treated that way, and you should care for it and be gentle and honor it.

And the other thing is, there have been so many acts of kindness from the nurses, from the doctors, from my friends, from Mandy, obviously. Believe in people, I guess. I just have this new appreciation that humans are really, really capable of pure kindness and pure love, and they show up when you need them to in the smallest ways and sometimes the biggest ways. If you look for it, you'll find that people are kind, and there's a lot of beauty, and there's a lot of love, and you just got to look for it, and you got to believe it and have hope. So, anyway, everything's great. It's been so overwhelming and wonderful. I'm so grateful. Thank you.

[51:19] Bobby Steggert: Thank you.