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[0:00] Bobby Steggert: I'm Bobby Steggert, and this is The Quiet Part Out Loud. Humor is one of those attributes in someone that can have perhaps the widest range of functions in someone's personality. It can be used to connect or deflect, illuminate or distract, exaggerate or minimize, celebrate or reject. We learn to laugh before we can even speak a word, and it can be fueled in equal parts by joy and pain. If you dig into the childhoods of truly funny people, they tend to fall into two camps. Either they experience such pain and neglect that they use humor as a way to cope with the harsh realities of life, or they were raised in a truly accepting embrace, teaching them that they were safe to explore and express the full range of who they could be.

I recently read a biography of Abraham Lincoln, and while we ascribe to him an almost godly character, most of his contemporaries mentioned his sense of humor as the first and most notable thing about him. He was also born into almost unthinkable poverty, lost his mother, first girlfriend, best friend, and young son, all before he became president. His humor was undeniably born out of struggle. In fact, he's attributed to have said, I laugh because I must not weep. Then there's someone like Conan O'Brien, who fascinatingly is also an amateur Abraham Lincoln scholar. He was raised by extremely supportive, stable parents, both highly successful in their fields, and who showed active interest in helping him to develop his comedic style and would even sit down to help him analyze his jokes and to understand why some worked and others didn't. It was their boundless enthusiasm that offered him the permission to explore the outer edges of his unique weirdness.

Today's episode is with one of the greats in the theater world, Brooks Ashmanskas, and it was wonderful to learn that he falls into the latter category. The unbelievable freedom and mastery that he's developed in his performing began with a family that embraced his wonderful combination of talents. Brooks is a rarity, even in the talent-packed stable of Broadway actors. He started as a tap dancer, developed a killer voice, and then just happens to distinguish himself as one of the truly funniest people you've ever seen on stage. Anyone who witnesses him in a show will experience an actor at the top of his game, totally free, totally unique, and totally in his power. I admired him since we worked together about 20 years ago in a production of Bye Bye Birdie at the Kennedy Center, where he was a marvelous Albert and I was, of course, Hugo.

And what I most wanted to learn about him in this conversation was his relationship to being funny. How was it born? How did it develop? And even more essentially, what does it mean to him that being hilarious is now so intrinsically tied to what people expect of him? Is it a gift? Is it a burden? Well, it turns out it's both. Brooks can be hilariously self-deprecating, and I think the irony is that it takes a supreme competence to be as bold and incisive as he also is. This duality is with him wherever he goes. It's what makes all of his performances unforgettable. And to me, he's a living lesson in how not to take yourself too seriously, but to somehow show up so fully in everything you do.

[3:37] Brooks Ashmanskas: Before we started recording, you said you started out singing. I've been living with your voice in Songs for a New World.

[3:49] Bobby Steggert: I was 14. Don't be sad about that.

[3:53] Brooks Ashmanskas: No, I'm not. Of course you were. What's so fascinating to me is—

[3:56] Bobby Steggert: How old are you now? Are you 40?

[3:58] Brooks Ashmanskas: 45.

[3:59] Bobby Steggert: Jesus. I knew you as this extremely strong singer. People know back then how fucking funny you were.

[4:05] Brooks Ashmanskas: A little. Mostly just personally. But everyone's funny. But you know what I mean? You sit around with people and it's like, you usually laugh. So I was just another person who maybe made people laugh more.

[4:11] Bobby Steggert: But when you came into the business, did you have a vision for what kind of work you wanted to do and what you were going to do?

[4:25] Brooks Ashmanskas: Not necessarily. I just wanted to work, I think. Because I think if you asked me when I was 18 or something, or even in my 20s, I probably wanted to be what I was never going to be. Like, not a leading man necessarily, but I certainly did those parts when I was young, certainly in high school and things like that, college. And it was like, yeah, so I'll be the big lead guy. I was never like, hot. You know what I mean? Which is fine. Probably why I'm alive.

[4:49] Bobby Steggert: You mean you wouldn't die of AIDS?

[4:50] Brooks Ashmanskas: No, definitely. Got lucky. It wasn't like I wasn't fucking around a lot during a period of time. I was not smart. It's not that I wasn't careful. It just was that I could count trillions of times where it was like, fine, you were just panic-stricken because you hooked up with somebody, even lightly. Then the testing situation was like six months. What used to be, when it first was going on, and this was before drugs, was like a year even that you had to count back. And it wasn't like I was not going to do anything when I was 21 years old for six months and be like, but you did think that way. That one blow job or whatever was like, I might die because it was a crazy time.

[5:29] Bobby Steggert: Were you performing while being traumatized by that time?

[5:33] Brooks Ashmanskas: Definitely. Yeah, all the time. Terrible. And I was talking to Billy Porter recently, and I love Billy, and we did Songs for a New World together. But I knew him before that. We had met when we were young. And he always talks about the PTSD of that, and that war, and the survivor guilt and all that stuff. But he's very fluent in that language and everything he said about it. It was just the other day we were talking about it, and I was like, yeah.

[5:57] Bobby Steggert: What was the main way you coped with it?

[5:59] Brooks Ashmanskas: I think just like I cope with most things all the time is just through relation to friends. You had your sort of people that if they got through it, you clung on to them. It wasn't fun to them. It was a much more fun period of time than just now. There were those mornings where you're like, fuck. And it wasn't like, oh, fuck, I made a mistake, and I shouldn't have hooked up with that guy or whatever. It was, fuck, I'm going to die. Whereas COVID was, it wasn't like, and I was very careful. So it was like I had it easier in a way to deal with it. And I knew a lot of people in the early part, quite a few people, I know you did too, that died. And it was like, that part was, that front end was a little nuts and a little reminiscent. But then it started to be very clear that it was like, okay, all right, there's no vaccine for AIDS a long time ago.

[6:52] Bobby Steggert: Does it still have an effect on how you experience danger or risk?

[6:57] Brooks Ashmanskas: Probably. I haven't really thought about that, but probably. Because in some ways, you think it would be like you'd be better at it. The things I got through in my young years, and also just the trauma of losing so many people, young people, that's just awful. You think it would build up sort of some, I don't know, calluses or whatever. But it was like, there's still times now, different kinds of risks or level of even fears. I'm not very good at that either. Still, it didn't really prepare me.

[7:27] Bobby Steggert: We talked on the phone about this. And I guess just really generally, I'm really curious about what your peculiar and particular sense of humor is born out of.

[7:36] Brooks Ashmanskas: My family, mostly very funny people. My father was funny, very funniest person I ever knew.

[7:41] Bobby Steggert: Really?

[7:42] Brooks Ashmanskas: My mom, too. My brother and sister, just very smart, funny people. I was the youngest, so I maybe tried to emulate them in some ways. But I also have a very different sense of humor than they do. My father's very dry and so good, so funny.

[7:56] Bobby Steggert: What was particularly funny about his dryness?

[7:58] Brooks Ashmanskas: I think he was just so quick. He was so bright, a smart man. But he was so sweet. He never missed a beat. And he was a great, not only just someone who could dig at something very easily and lovingly, but also, he was just so fast. Like Marty Short. And he was my dad. So of course, that was like, oh, he was a great guy.

[8:20] Bobby Steggert: And yet, room was made for you to develop.

[8:22] Brooks Ashmanskas: Absolutely. Absolutely. And they were fans of it. I'm very supportive of whatever I was up to, which, poor things, the amount of recitals or shows or things, God knows they had to sit through so many. I'm sure horrifically boring.

[8:38] Bobby Steggert: Did you know that musical theater was going to be your thing?

[8:40] Brooks Ashmanskas: I don't think I knew it. I think when I was young, I knew I wanted to be, like I wanted to be Fred Astaire or something. I was very young. And so my first thing was tap dancing.

[8:49] Bobby Steggert: The first thing?

[8:49] Brooks Ashmanskas: When I was like four.

[8:50] Bobby Steggert: Before singing?

[8:51] Brooks Ashmanskas: Oh, yeah. Long before. And of course, that was not going to happen. I was going to be Fred Astaire. Mostly the stomach. But I used to dress very preppy, waspy, trying to, I think, look like he had ties, his belts, not like I did that. I wasn't that gay. But anyway, I wanted to be him. And it led to, I had a real knack for tap dancing. I took and then taught a little bit until I was 18, so 14 years of my life.

[9:16] Bobby Steggert: I've always wondered if people who tap also understand language, in a sense that there's rhythm to both.

[9:21] Brooks Ashmanskas: I think so. There must be some sort of natural affinity to both. Like tap dancers, there are also good drummers, are also good singers. Some of them are like very good phrasing with singing. And I'm sure it probably leads to the rhythm of maybe perhaps comedy or just dialogue, things like that. Makes sense.

[9:41] Bobby Steggert: And does that mean also you were raised on golden Hollywood?

[9:44] Brooks Ashmanskas: When I was younger, definitely. But also whatever was happening then. And again, my parents were so great about, for all of us three kids, whatever we were leaning towards or something, they would be like, yeah, then let's, I'm trying to think of something, soccer even. And it was like, okay, then I'll coach the team. But the minute I showed a sort of interest in the theater, live performances, my dad took me to see everything. I saw everything.

[10:14] Bobby Steggert: So unlike a lot of kids who become performers because they are desperate to be seen, you were fully seen in a place. How fortunate.

[10:22] Brooks Ashmanskas: Yeah. It's a different, much different way to grow up than most people I know. And even just having parents that were married or parents who were fantastic and treated me with such respect and support my whole life on all fronts.

[10:36] Bobby Steggert: Are these liberal people?

[10:38] Brooks Ashmanskas: Very.

[10:39] Bobby Steggert: God bless. Where?

[10:40] Brooks Ashmanskas: Portland, Oregon, just outside of Portland.

[10:42] Bobby Steggert: That's why I'm wearing Powell's shirt.

[10:44] Brooks Ashmanskas: Yeah. I have that shirt. Yeah. Literally that color.

[10:48] Bobby Steggert: I buy a Powell shirt every time I go.

[10:50] Brooks Ashmanskas: I love Portland. I haven't been in a while though. I need to get out there. But yeah, like a suburb of Portland I grew up in.

[10:56] Bobby Steggert: Oh, that's right.

[10:56] Brooks Ashmanskas: Beaverton.

[10:57] Bobby Steggert: Okay. Beaverton. Yeah. So these are people who understood all of the importance of progressive value.

[11:04] Brooks Ashmanskas: Yeah. And they were East coasters. Mom was from Maine. Dad was from Boston. My father went to law school at NYU. So they lived in New York City when they had my brother and sister. And my mom, she let him get through his schooling. And then she was like, we're getting out of here. I'm done with the city. And I think the East coast and also maybe his family a little bit, they were a little crazy, sweet, but crazy. And they moved to Oregon. I think he'd found a job at the college or something. And they like filled up the country squire station wagon, like that kind of thing in the late sixties and got out.

[11:40] Bobby Steggert: And so you grew up in the West Coast. Did you study theater?

[11:43] Brooks Ashmanskas: I didn't really study theater. I did a lot of it in high school. And that's, that would be when like the musicals, because it was a big high school, a very, very well-funded high school department. And it was a very popular, it was huge. They get the nerdy kids off to the end.

[12:02] Brooks Ashmanskas: They did Barnum of all things, my sophomore year, and I was cast as Tom Thumb in it because there was a senior guy who was playing Barnum and he was, I think he was going through some whatever and he ended up not being able to do it. And right the week before we opened, I took over the part and had to learn it very quickly; it was a big part. And that was my first taste of, oh, it's horrible. I'm sure it was horrible in it. And like singing kind of pop feel to the voice, cause I, everything I listened to was Roberta Flack and Luther Vandross and James Ingram. And so it was like, that's not how Barnum is supposed to sound. But boy, did I put it in there anyway? And the tapping came in handy. The guy who put it all together, the head of the drama department, he was very talented and designed everything, huge sets; it was crazy, costumes. And when he saw that I could tap dance, he just would put a tap dance. Let's open act two with a, make that a tap number. And so it was like, he played to my strengths.

[13:10] Bobby Steggert: You already felt safe on stage because of tapping.

[13:11] Brooks Ashmanskas: I think so. Yeah, performing, but to do something like a book musical like that, that was different.

[13:16] Bobby Steggert: Were you out yet?

[13:17] Brooks Ashmanskas: Basically. I wasn't really, it wasn't like I told everybody; I told some people in high school. I think most people knew I was gay for whatever reason, and I was out to my parents and my family at a young age, too young, really. But I've told this story before, but my mom, I remember when I was really young, my dad was a judge and he had his stenographer who was gay, and he was a great guy. And he and his partner would come over for dinner or whatever. And my mom was so sweet because she sat in the three of us kids. And she was like, so basically, she did a good job actually. She was like, they're like your father and I, but they're both guys basically. And my sister rolled her eyes and was like, whatever.

And my brother was like, yeah. And I was like, apparently, oh, like me. How old are you? Six, probably seven. And I do remember her saying it. I don't really remember saying like me, but it was something to that extent. And she was like, don't close any doors. But so I think they just took it as like, I was an artsy fartsy little weirdo or whatever. But then like in high school, I just be serious with them and say, yeah.

[14:26] Bobby Steggert: That's inconceivable to me that at that time it was safe.

[14:26] Brooks Ashmanskas: Yeah, I was lucky in because Portland was a relatively progressive place. It's not that there weren't people that were calling people names and it's not like it was looked upon as the right kind of lifestyle, so certainly oppression going on, but I think just in my little bubble of my world, I was relatively safe. I know that there were times that I was uncomfortable and felt other, of course, but that, I think that was a good thing in the end.

[14:53] Bobby Steggert: What's so apparent, just having seen you perform so much, is that what you're sharing helps me to understand that the freedom you experience isn't an overcompensation; it's freedom that you actually were lucky enough to feel pretty early.

[15:06] Brooks Ashmanskas: Yeah, I think so too. Yeah. And I haven't always thought of it that way, but I know what you mean. It can be a push thing and you're like, well, but no, I think it's nirvana. That kind of freedom is what you hope to reach. Not always there. When it's there, it's great on stage, especially.

[15:20] Bobby Steggert: Do you feel like you early on got there pretty often?

[15:24] Brooks Ashmanskas: Yeah, I think it was in a way it was easier when I was younger. People always say that, and I agree too. I think I didn't care as much.

[15:30] Bobby Steggert: You didn't care as much.

[15:32] Brooks Ashmanskas: And it's not like I care. I mean, care as in what people thought of me. So I think I cared more than what people thought.

[15:38] Bobby Steggert: Sure.

[15:38] Brooks Ashmanskas: But now it's more about, I just, I think I'm more critical.

[15:42] Bobby Steggert: Of your work?

[15:43] Brooks Ashmanskas: Of my own work, of everything. I'm more educated or knowledgeable about certain things when you're, that's why I say like my poor parents sitting through some of those early things.

[15:52] Bobby Steggert: Yeah.

[15:53] Brooks Ashmanskas: I was probably free as a bird in a beautiful Meisner-esque way, but it was probably a mess. Or not. I mean, yeah. It just wasn't, I don't think that crafted, which is fine. It was good. I certainly learned what I needed to learn.

[16:07] Bobby Steggert: And so you say that you learned through high school theater and then was there any formal training after that?

[16:12] Brooks Ashmanskas: College.

[16:14] Bobby Steggert: College.

[16:14] Brooks Ashmanskas: I went to Bennington College up in Vermont. Very small, liberal arts, overpriced liberal arts, but it was great because it was tiny and I had gone to, my graduating class from Beaverton High School was larger than the entire college.

[16:27] Bobby Steggert: Beaverton to Bennington.

[16:28] Brooks Ashmanskas: Beaverton to Bennington. That's your memoir.

[16:30] Bobby Steggert: To Broadway.

[16:31] Brooks Ashmanskas: Oh God. And I think about the picture on the back cover of the book as just being great. But yeah, so I went to Bennington and that was not a musical theater school. It was acting; it was plays and it was great. Loved it. I studied more music there. And I think that was just what I needed. Met friends I still have today, like who I work with, and that's, yeah, that was.

[16:53] Bobby Steggert: Did you have to find your bravery or was it there?

[16:55] Brooks Ashmanskas: I think I had to find it.

[16:56] Bobby Steggert: How'd you find it?

[16:57] Brooks Ashmanskas: I think, I don't know. I feel like, I think it's just whatever circumstance comes up is a challenge to whatever level, even on a small level. And I think if you have this sort of, I think I had this sort of need to achieve things and not necessarily in a show-offy way, just like my own, I need to get to the end of this book. And so you would figure out what you need to do. And certainly the next time be like, I don't want to do it that way. And then all of a sudden you're 70.

[17:27] Bobby Steggert: No, I know what I'm doing now.

[17:29] Brooks Ashmanskas: You were solidly in your early sixties.

[17:31] Bobby Steggert: Yeah.

[17:32] Brooks Ashmanskas: I'm going to be 57.

[17:34] Bobby Steggert: Oh, you're in your late fifties.

[17:36] Brooks Ashmanskas: Yeah. I look 83, but it's like 57.

[17:39] Bobby Steggert: Yeah.

[17:39] Brooks Ashmanskas: You know what I mean? It's just weird. And the last, I'm sure you feel this too, because of the pandemic, like where did that, the last five years go? That was the fastest ever.

[17:49] Bobby Steggert: Yeah, it was.

[17:50] Brooks Ashmanskas: So I was like, where did my fifties? I'm about to be 60 at some point. And then God knows.

[17:55] Bobby Steggert: And then it's over.

[17:55] Brooks Ashmanskas: Clocks ticking.

[17:56] Bobby Steggert: It's still baby.

[17:57] Brooks Ashmanskas: It is over.

[17:58] Bobby Steggert: What do you remember about being a young person in New York when you started out? What do you remember feeling?

[18:03] Brooks Ashmanskas: I think it was most of all, I had a really great time. I think for the most part, it was exciting to live in the city. It's a very extreme place. And so the highs are really higher than anything you've ever felt. And the lows are lower than anything you've ever felt. And it's very rarely in between.

[18:24] Bobby Steggert: That's right.

[18:25] Brooks Ashmanskas: So I think it was as a young person that was very exciting and dramatic. So those lows, a breakup with someone you knew for 20 minutes was like the end of the world. And then maybe someone made eye contact with you and you were like, this is, I'm on fire. So it was very, I don't know. It was very, everything's under a microscope. It was detailed. It was also, New York is a very, at least at that time, I was in college. I lived in New York during the winters and summer. So that would be the late eighties. And so I moved to New York in '91, but I had been there a lot throughout my life. And so I was very comfortable when I moved to New York. I knew the city.

[19:05] Bobby Steggert: You knew how to navigate.

[19:06] Brooks Ashmanskas: Absolutely. Very well. Because like I said, my father took me to see everything. We went to New York at least once a year and I really knew Broadway. I knew where I wanted to live. And at that point you could still afford to live in New York City. You know, I couldn't afford to live in New York City now.

[19:21] Bobby Steggert: What was it like to establish yourself as a performer? And in your generation, the people who talk about it say that it was easier. I'm not sure if that's true.

[19:30] Brooks Ashmanskas: I think it was. I think everything was easier than not just being in the theater. I do not envy and I feel very, I don't feel sorry for, but I empathize with young people now. Not just who are trying to get into the theater; that's what I know about, but just in general. I know it's just, my heart breaks for them. I think if I were 18 today, I wouldn't make it in today's theater business because I don't want to do that whole self-promotion. No, no, no interest to this day. But it also was not as necessary. There was some, I guess you could say there was some self-promotion to headshots and resume kind of thing, but what's that? Who cares? That's like any business.

[20:10] Bobby Steggert: And it seemed like it was a time in New York that was really hopping, like everything, writers, performers, everybody. It was just very, there was always something to do. It just felt like culturally rife with energy.

[20:24] Brooks Ashmanskas: And again, because it was not that it was cheap because it wasn't, I broke many leases and not just because of the boys I was sleeping with, it was like just on my own, my first, second, third lease I left before and had to because I couldn't afford it and mostly because I wanted to do what I do. I didn't want to work as a waiter. I never did. I had one job when I first moved to New York that I was so bad at. It was an easy job. It was selling tickets over the phone for Carnegie Hall.

[20:56] Bobby Steggert: That sounds so boring.

[20:56] Brooks Ashmanskas: Ooh, Carnegie charge. Oh, this is Brooks. And the one good thing about it is that I worked in ticketing at Carnegie Hall and I could write myself passes and I would go to every, I saw all the symphonies. It was fantastic recitals of very famous singers and pianists and things. It was fantastic. So I didn't work a lot. Otherwise I only worked in the theater. And so there was no money.

[21:20] Bobby Steggert: Were you, was there any TV back then?

[21:24] Brooks Ashmanskas: It wasn't like today. Cause it was like the, I never did it, but pilot season, I don't even know when it was. I was like, that's the, I was lucky because I did work a lot. And even when I was younger, it was very off, offy stuff. But it was like, like I said, it was very rife with, and again, the AIDS crisis that bred a great deal of reactionary or reactive writing. A lot of people, cause a lot of people were willing to throw heavy stuff. And a lot of it was funny and a lot of it was whatever it was. And there was always a part for a 22-year-old guy. Usually the guy was dying at the, like so many scenes with the mother. It's like, it was great at those where the mom finally was like, I love you, like that kind of scene.

There were, I did, I can't tell you how many plays and no one knew that I sang that wasn't the stuff I was going up for because I had done all these plays. I was like that. And then finally a musical came along that, that at that point was called Johnson Lif casting. They did everything.

[22:23] Bobby Steggert: Oh yeah.

[22:25] Brooks Ashmanskas: And it's Tara Rubin now; she was an assistant there. And so I went in for something and I got it, a musical version of Paper Moon. They'd never made it. It was going to be my Broadway debut at the Paper Mill; it was from Christine Ebersole and it was a bit too big musical and the ensemble, the men in the ensemble were me, Chris Sieber, John Bolton, Joe LaCaro now is not doing it anymore, but like it was, and the women too, it was like, there were some major people doing very funny stuff actually, but it didn't end up coming in heartbreaking. But that was the first musical thing.

[23:04] Bobby Steggert: And in the New York area at least, and that led to songs for the world.

[23:09] Brooks Ashmanskas: And sounds for New World. What I remember about listening to it over and over again was just the incredible passion in your voice. Did that open something in you?

[23:18] Brooks Ashmanskas: I think it probably has more to do with Jason's writing, Jason Robert Brown, which I really, it really fit with me to this day. Again, I've had that sort of poppy or whatever, but that was my instinct. How does it just, how I learned to sing. And he certainly utilizes that. He has it to sell himself when he sings stuff. And it was a part that they had done a lot of readings of it. Trying to get, they even did a, like a small-ish workshop production of it in Toronto. And Jason had always played that part because he was his voice. And I don't think it was his intention to do it, but it was always, he knew it and he could play the hell out of it. And it was he and Andrea Burns and Billy Porter and Jessica Mulaski. No, it was always a different woman in that, but there's many good Lori Beachman included. I think she did the Toronto.

[24:04] Brooks Ashmanskas: Version. So when they got this production in New York together, they auditioned some people for those two parts. The one to play what Jason had always done and what Glory Beachman had done. Annie Hughes was another one. Brilliant. Malasky and I, by chance, I didn't know her. I knew who she was because I'd seen her in Tommy. And she was really like, who's that? Voice, crazy actress. So good. And she went in before me in the audition. We were in the waiting room together. I just remember because I knew who she was. She doesn't remember. So I had to follow her, which actually was probably good training because I always had to follow her in that show. She'd sing like the big hit and then I'd come on and try to wipe up.

But anyway, Daisy Prince, who directed that and conceived the whole thing with Jason, she knew the director of Paper Moon personally. Daisy knows everybody. And she also had heard me sing at some piano bar. And the piano bar was a little different thing then too. There was a place called Rose's Turn downtown that was like the old duplex on Grove Street. It's now not that anymore. Pit downstairs and like low ceilings and everybody's smoking and drinking. But great pianists and really great. It's where I met Billy Porter years before that, by chance. It's where I met Jason Robert Brown before that. Had no connection. It was years before. So people were really like a great place to go. And people were like, bro, sing something.

Good to see you. So it was like a norm in cheers or whatever, dating myself. And was singing always something that was accessible to you? Yeah, it's like easy in your body. Yeah, I love to sing. And especially then. And so I would get up and sing. The pianist was a great guy still, Bill Graves. And he was, he loved to play like Elton Johnny, Billy Julie kind of thing. And so I remember I used to sing with him, Don't Let The Sun Go Down On Me. And Daisy, apparently, I don't think we met, but she heard me sing that. And when she asked me to come and audition, it was unclear what kind of song to sing. So usually the duet was blah, blah, blah, classical or whatever, standard. And she said to my agent, have him sing Don't Let The Sun Go Down On Me.

Like, that's perfect. And she said to me later, she said, I remember singing it. She was like, it was like you were doing Rose's Turn or something. Like, it was hilarious. So now she always says, have him sing Don't Let The Sun Go Down On Me. I love making a tragedy. But anyway, so I sang that. I'm not sure. I know there were comic elements to it. Was there any opportunity for you to show your silliness? A little bit. Not a lot. Not a lot. Because in a way, because I was younger than Andrea Burns, and I had a lot sort of the like, lovey dovey duety kind of things. And then she did that Santa number. That's the last. Yeah, she got to do the sure. That was the showy part. Billy, too. Poor him.

Vocally. Jesus God. Amazing. All three of them. They remain like my favorite voices. And people. Anyway, there were a couple of like, a couple of the uptempos I was involved in. I found some places to get bored giggles. So then when was it that your show helped you transition into that special humor that brings all of these talents that you have together? It may have been, I don't know. The first show I did on Broadway, I replaced into How To Succeed. It was Matthew Broderick version. And it had been running. It was a hit. He had won the Tony for it. Jeff Blumenkranz played Bud Frump. He's the villain of the piece. Funny villain. Childish. And I took over for him. I got him. And that was the first job.

I really first job I got like a Broadway show. And that was a big deal. It was crazy. And that is a great part. So there were speeches, there were songs, there were lots of scenes that could just be it was meant to be bratty and silly. And I could feel it like, Oh, I'm in the groove here. This feels intuitive to me. Yeah, definitely. I had no problem with it. Really. What was it like to be plugged into a show? Weird and scary. And especially because my first Broadway show. So that's scary anyway. Also, because it's a limited rehearsal process. You're working with a stage manager mostly. And while they were very nice and very good, dance captain putting into those numbers, there's a Wayne Solento choreographed and there were some pretty was dancey.

And but I was younger and I could pick it. I did okay. But I remember the opening my first time on who just sweaty, scary, but it was fun. I imagine out of body because very much so you've not built it with anyone on stage. Right, all these new elements. Right, right. It was weird. And I it's not necessarily again, replacing I know I taught you that I put replacing the producers years later. And it's not I don't think it's what I do best, mostly because I'm maybe more individual than some other people. And some may read into that, especially people who have to keep a show running as a little too free with it or inconsistent with it. But for me, even doing a show from the start, I do it on purpose.

Does the freedom feel willful to you? This must be mine? Or does it actually feel more spontaneous than that? More spontaneous? I think I don't really have. If I do, it's very small level of it. That sort of gene that competitive, or I'm sure you've answered this question before, in your career as a performer, someone will ask you, like, what is the one part you'd love to play? That kind of thing? It's often asked. And someone will say, I'd love to play I can't even think of a big part, Mama Rose, whatever, I don't have it. And when I see a show, or if a show is running, and I know someone will say, you'd be great as whatever. Okay, but I've seen it, I had no inclination of I know what to do with that part.

If it's a part I'd have, then I go, but I just don't I don't have that. This is mine. Like you how he posed the question. It was spontaneous. And then for me, at least the challenge and the fun of it is to keep it that way. For any actor, of course, and I know your work, it's you do it in a responsible way. There's still the freedom within the form, there are the boundaries of a scene. Did you ever have now more and more, I would imagine people let you just be your greatness? Did you ever have any experiences where you weren't allowed to be you? Yeah, again, replacing was it was, and again, I don't blame them. But it was no one was, I've never really had anyone be an asshole. I've never really dealt with that too much, to an extent, at least.

But it's mostly been just within myself feeling like I need, I know what I need to reach that goal, or whatever it might be, what it might be in the script, that line up ahead is the punchline. To put it very simply, how you get there for me does not matter. But if you that is the punch, and what needs to happen after that said, is laughter. So however you need to get there, great.

[32:03] Brooks Ashmanskas: So you think of it very structurally? When I'm sitting here, yes, I think there are ways to not think of it to stay out of your head when you're in practice. And that gets easier, the more you do it. I think it's just, it's so boring. It's grad school in a way, but it's you have to be in the moment. It isn't the same ever, even in rehearsal, God knows, but every second is different. Does that mean you've always felt more permission to improv than maybe some other people? Maybe. And I wouldn't even say I improv too much, because I'm actually not great at it. I'm not terrible at it. And there have been times I'm good at it. I usually if there's any improvisation going on, it would be in the rehearsal previews.

That's scary, but it's important and not like every day. But again, you know that especially if you're trying to form a new piece and you talk to the writers or whatever, this needs to be, that's what needs to happen. We need a big home run laugh there, or at least a triple. And it's not that at that point. And why not say something you would say at dinner and turn it up and fail, obviously. But I think I've gotten better at not failing completely. It might not be as good as we want it to be. It might be more of a single than a double or a triple, but it's like you get there. And there are a couple times, and if you work as long as I have with certain people, they go, that's why they hire you.

You know what I mean? The last few shows I've done, I've worked with the same writer, Bob Martin, and then with both The Prom and Smash. And both of them were characters that were just totally, let's figure it out. So you got to bring all of your ideas to the writing process? Yes. And maybe not all. Probably, yeah. Some of them were not listened. What a trusting thing. Yes. And it's not always that way. It's lovely. And like, it was because the whole creative team, Sutton Stroman, everyone was like, yeah, we don't need to spend the entire day on it. But if we're working on that scene and we know that this isn't working, and we all want it to work in this way, then what if he's bleeding? He's got to turn it up.

I'm curious about the other side of this coin. Are there times in which you feel like we can't make this work, Brooks will make it work? Many. What does that feel like? Not good. To be fair, it can be a challenge that you can try to fix something, but that's different than what we were just talking about. Fixing it together and trying to figure it out and bouncing it around is what rehearsal should be for. And then in front of early audiences too, that's when I think really, those are those great moments because it's scary to do it in front of an audience because if it fails, you're like, oh boy. But if you hit something every once in a while, I've been lucky enough to hit on a couple of things that are like, that's the whole character or whatever.

Anyway, to be hired the other 90% of the time is to be hired. They'll give you a script and you read it and it's not funny. And then you find out that they think it's a comedy. They're like, isn't it hilarious? And you're like, oh dear. And then they expect that. And they cast people, not just me, many others to try to make it fun. Does it feel exploitative? What's the word? I think it's a waste of time, honestly, of everyone's time. Certainly the audience says, oh God, poor things. And it's not like it can't be done, but believe me. And without hubris, I'm not the only person who does this. I think a lot of people do this to whatever level of success. Somebody says, oh, you can make the phone book funny, or I can listen to him read the phone book or whatever it is.

Sometimes I have a friend, it doesn't matter who it is, who's relatively famous, said, yeah, they can make the phone book funny. But that's okay. Not by the phone book, it's the gesture that I'm making or whatever face I'm pulling or whatever situation you put it in. So that part, it's not necessarily fun. When that comes up and you don't have to share any details about any specific shows, is there any part of you that is resistant and that actually doesn't want to help and doesn't want to make it funny for them? Yes. Especially as you've experienced it more and more, I say no more often. To even doing the project? Even getting involved. Because you can smell it, but you can see the end coming.

It's more, if it's people that you love too, that's tough. That everyone wants, they have really lovely intentions. And so those are the ones, whether you regret it later or not, those are the pieces that you're like, yeah, I want to help with that. Or I want to be around these people. And to whatever, again, level of success, that's what happens. Sometimes it works based on the talent of the people. Sometimes things work out, but it's hard. That's a lot of work and remains a lot of work, even once you've done it. It's just, I don't know, it makes you really love the shows you work on where it's not a lot of work.

[36:01] Brooks Ashmanskas: There's some alchemy here. Yeah. It just works. What is that like for you when you're doing something that you don't feel is working? Are you doing the best you can? What does that feel like in your day to day? It's rough. I think it takes a toll. It's tiring and tiresome, but it can be inspiring too. And you can try to find the positive of it and be like the challenge of it and trying to figure it out. And sometimes you can.

[36:36] Brooks Ashmanskas: I have a long history of having a pretty healthy detachment from the pieces that I've been in. Yeah, but it is definitely lesson learned. I may have had a leg up on it a little bit, maybe just because of my life experiences or something and the people I was surrounded by and the support I was given. But I think I had to learn the lesson and continue. There are times, even recently, where it's just like, Brooks, don't go there.

[37:04] Bobby Steggert: Where's there?

[37:05] Brooks Ashmanskas: There being, when you equate success with a certain piece or a certain performance, I think it's very dangerous in anything, not just performing, because you're thinking about the wrong thing. And so it's easy to fall into. I also think about how all performers, as they move through their career, for better or worse, start to get wedged into an archetype of who people think they are. My version was, oh, he's a sensitive guy.

[37:32] Bobby Steggert: Sure.

[37:33] Brooks Ashmanskas: And I am. I'm a lot of things. And so...

[37:35] Bobby Steggert: I was going to say, that's one thing. Do you have complicated feelings around the expectation that you're always hilarious?

[37:43] Brooks Ashmanskas: Yeah, of course. I think with any sort of pigeonholing, just as you were saying it about yourself, I remember when I first met you. And as a human being, you take in a person visually first. There's nothing wrong with that. It's the judgment after that you need to watch. But anyway, and I'm sure you have dealt with in your career. I'm sure of it. We've never talked about it, but that you look the way you look. You're a very universally beautiful young man. And then I remember speaking to you for probably two minutes and you were 400 other things, right? Because you were so bright, are so bright and such a sweet, generous, interesting person. And so the beautiful part goes down on the list. Just another thing.

But when you're dealing with being cast in something and that kind of thing, and again, this is their job. They've got to fill a part. We need a cute guy who can sing and has some heart. If we can get the cute part, at least it would be great. So let's bring them in first. So that's your pigeonhole, I'm sure, right? Mine being what we've been talking about. He can make it funny. It needs to be funny. That's like you're showing your lack of knowledge. So do I have complicated feelings about it? I wouldn't even say they're that complicated. I think it's pretty black and white. I dislike it. I think everyone does whatever their pigeonhole is, whether it's like a physical thing. They're really tall or et cetera. Do you think even Patti LuPone feels that?

[39:07] Bobby Steggert: Absolutely. Like always playing battle axes?

[39:09] Brooks Ashmanskas: Of course. I'm sure she does. And there are people like Patti who have a little more agency in their lives because they have a level of success. You can see it in her when she's been able to choose what she wants to do. That she's purposefully, I don't want to be screaming at the top of my lungs or whatever. Sure. Obviously, finances come into this and wanting, if you're a theater actor, the Broadway pigeon.

[39:33] Bobby Steggert: Sure. Have you found ways to fight against the pigeonhole by taking something really interesting, even if it didn't benefit your career or your pocketbook?

[39:42] Brooks Ashmanskas: Oh, yeah, absolutely. Yes.

[39:45] Bobby Steggert: What's the best example?

[39:47] Brooks Ashmanskas: I would say that I've been in New York for probably, what, like about 35 years. Jesus. And I've said this before to young people, because they look at maybe my bio and it's just based on time. I've done, I think, 16 Broadway shows, which is a lot. I've been very fortunate, but that's not even half the time I've lived in New York. And many of them have been quick. Only two of them have been a year long. Dream was but a dream. Oh, baby. And dream, maybe not the right word for it. Anyway, so the other more than half of my time has been trying to do just that. And it doesn't always have to do with the pigeonhole part of it, but it's easier to do in Boston or wherever to do something regionally where they're not stuck on, they're just casting a play. So it's like some of the things I've done over the years out in the regions have been just that, things I would never get on Broadway ever. And to some degree acquitted myself pretty well, I think.

[40:48] Bobby Steggert: We did at the Kennedy Center.

[40:48] Brooks Ashmanskas: Yeah. We did Bye Bye Birdie. I remember being like, that dude is a real leading man. You really are. You made a joke about it earlier, but you really are.

[40:57] Brooks Ashmanskas: I was younger. That was a long time ago. But you have all of the skills to be.

[41:01] Bobby Steggert: Maybe. I think the one and you're going to think I'm just beating up on myself, but I was never the like the hottie. I'm an acquired taste. I've done fine. You know what I mean? And I have my charms, but it was never about like someone who's just beautiful and like also sings their ass off. Who was that in your cohort that you were like, God damn it?

[41:20] Brooks Ashmanskas: It was probably Brian Darcy James or somebody like that. But he's got everything. He has it all. He is amazing. He's the great and the greatest guy. The best voice ever. Anyway, I was never going to be that. I'm the person who's trying to make Brian Darcy James laugh on stage.

[41:37] Bobby Steggert: There's also the ghettoization of being gay.

[41:39] Brooks Ashmanskas: No, baby.

[41:40] Bobby Steggert: Have you experienced that too?

[41:41] Brooks Ashmanskas: Absolutely. That also comes into the pigeonhole, especially on Broadway, because by chance and all of these performances I've loved working on, I've really worked hard. A few of them are very flamboyantly gay characters. Great. Which I think is fantastic, especially in central role. So this is great. This is not what it used to be. I just used to be the guy who came in from next door. So this is an opportunity. And I think not that there's any, I'm not powerful enough to have a backlash or famous enough or whatever, but it's, I think about it. And at times that's probably good about mixing it up. And there are some things that have come across my little, not that busy desk that are very much that part, whether it's a big part or a small part, the just the gay guy, funny, maybe a little edgy or whatever.

It's very simple to do because I happen to be gay, but like I was saying about your looks, it's one thing about me needless to say, I think I am more akin to say no to those things now. And that's too bad. It shouldn't be like that. It should be like, I don't think Leonardo DiCaprio has to worry about being whatever it is. I shouldn't have to worry about taking apart because it's gay. In fact, I should be like wanting to represent.

[42:56] Bobby Steggert: Yes. But there's another layer of it, which is that if character is an archetype, yes, then he's not really written to be a full human.

[43:02] Brooks Ashmanskas: Exactly. Exactly. And that's been the challenge on the couple of things that I've been really proud of are some things where I could be seen as just a flamboyant, the whole work of the entire work of the process, getting there to Broadway was me trying to figure out how to make it. And even though it can be silly, very, a human being, a fully formed human being, even if it's one line that you can go, you know, and then all that funny stuff is funnier. But so I noticed it in myself, too, that sort of whatever level it is of homophobia of playing something else, the level of homophobia is wanting it to be something else. Yeah, that I shouldn't. Like I said, like it's within a very low level of it because I don't really feel like I am.

But on that front, even if I'm thinking about it, someone's nice enough to say, hey, we'd love you to play this part or even read the script. And I see that archetype kind of thing or just smell it. It's just in there. And I know that's what they expect it to be. I go to a place of I think maybe not. And that's too bad. What I'm hearing and picking up on is actually an integrity.

[44:11] Bobby Steggert: Bless you.

[44:12] Brooks Ashmanskas: And I think you're right. I just think it's the fact of that is too bad. So I bring up like Leonardo DiCaprio or something or anybody, a straight guy. I hear they're not having that internal conversation. I am. And that's too bad.

[44:30] Bobby Steggert: Yes, usually is coming from a place that I do not want to represent any community that way. Certainly not my own. So I guess the closing question.

[44:38] Brooks Ashmanskas: How dare you?

[44:40] Bobby Steggert: How dare you come here? No, it's you're in a really interesting place when it comes to looking to the future because you have a lot of information. You have some privilege, which is wonderful, some choice, which is wonderful. What do you want the rest of your career to look like?

[44:55] Brooks Ashmanskas: Yeah, it's a good question. And I say that because I don't know. I think it's again, I don't have that gene of I'd probably be so much more successful if I did have the sort of ambitious kind of not that I don't have ambition, but I don't think enough about it.

[45:11] Bobby Steggert: You don't have much vision.

[45:13] Brooks Ashmanskas: Yeah, I don't. Like I said, when I was young, I never thought about I just wanted to perform. I think now it becomes for me and probably a lot of people about the people you work with. That's been true for a long time, but it gets more and more true. Whether the show is going to be a success or not, it's nothing to do with anything, really, unless it's just terrible. But for the most part, most things are pretty good. At least some things are fantastic and they can just bomb. And that's just we have no control over. You have to accept that or you have to accept what level of control you have over it. What does it look like from a wanting place? It would be to be surrounded by people I love and respect and be surprised by the people I don't know yet. And all of that, that is what it's about for me.

[45:58] Brooks Ashmanskas: The thing I miss the most is those moments of power on stage. And for me, it would be when a moment would suck the oxygen out of a room and you could feel silence in suspension. That's the power I miss.

[46:12] Bobby Steggert: What's the power that you love feeling?

[46:16] Brooks Ashmanskas: On stage.

[46:17] Bobby Steggert: On stage.

[46:18] Brooks Ashmanskas: Yeah. It's probably about the same idea, in a way. That's a really great way of putting it. But because, again, most of the things I've done have been comic, there's no feeling like being able to almost feel like you're conducting it. Again, with others, with a full orchestra, but that you can feel it. Early on, usually in a certain performance, this is the experience you could have. It doesn't always happen, even when it goes well. But that kind of thing where all I need to do is, or all anyone needs to do is, just move my hand and they will shut up. Or just move my hand and they will freak out with laughter. And it's such a weird thing because it doesn't make any sense, really, to have 2,000, whatever, 1,500 people at the same time.

To have some sort of consistency that, if it's well written and well figured out technically, that's something to be really proud of. Consistently, that moment, I and the writers and everybody can get everyone to laugh every night. So we're saying the same thing. It's about the magic of that tribal togetherness that we can experience.

[47:24] Bobby Steggert: Yeah. It's a living, breathing thing. The feeling of the molecular structure of the room changing. Whether it's pulled out, the air goes, or it's huge laughter, or even minor things, too. Where you don't feel like they're leaning in. They really are investing in that. You know what I mean? Because the power is, and then I'll shut up. But the power is actually not yours. It's shared. It's equal power. They are powerful, too.