This transcript was automatically generated and might contain errors.

[0:00] Bobby Steggert: I'm Bobby Steggert, and this is The Quiet Part Out Loud.

[0:16] Bobby Steggert: Imagination is our superpower. The theory of relativity came to Albert Einstein in a dream. John Lennon wrote a song about it. And I've never met one person who doesn't love a Pixar movie. Try to prove me wrong. And imagination might just be the thing that preserves our healthy democracy in November, as we now consider our first Black female president. Unheard of literally yesterday, but can we collectively imagine a better tomorrow? I mean, that's the tension here, right? Do we want the familiar, even if it's poison? Or can we imagine something better? Imagination is also something that we tend to turn away from as we get older, foreclosing on all the magical possibilities as life humbles and disappoints us, while perhaps becoming even stronger and more insistent in the way that it conjures the worst-case scenario.

My imagination has sometimes been my worst enemy. On today's episode, John Tartaglia, we all love him from Avenue Q, shares the astounding story of his imagination and how it manifested for him a life and a career that is miraculously and exactly what he envisioned for himself as a young child. The arc is simple, but the story is really fascinating. He grew up in love with Jim Henson and the Muppets, and now, 40 years later, he is the creative supervisor at the Henson Company. As I was comparing my story to his, I certainly remember a single-minded goal of one day being on Broadway. I dreamt of Broadway stardom and the Tony Awards and one day being on a cast album. But it always felt more aspirational than manifest.

If I work hard enough, maybe, just maybe, could I, perhaps? And as John tells his story, while hard work, really to the level of single-minded obsession at times, was surely central to his success, there seems to have been a deeper and absolute belief in this destiny, an optimism that was immovable and one that conspired for him in profound ways. John's story inspires me to keep a more youthful imagination alive, one that remains open to the best of the world, that isn't so fatalistic about where things are headed. He brought me back to my wonder and curiosity for my younger self, and I think he'll do the same for you.

[2:53] Bobby Steggert: John Tartaglia, I want everyone to know that you are one of the very first brave souls who actually reached out to me saying that you wanted to do this, and I so appreciate it.

[3:03] John Tartaglia: Yes, first of all, I adore you. And second of all, I am so excited that you're doing this, and I just, I've listened to the episodes. I think they're just fantastic. I think what you're doing is really great.

[3:16] Bobby Steggert: Thank you. And every musical theatre performer in New York looked up to you. You were such a shining example of someone who was so talented and so kind. And that was, to me, always a lesson, that you always carried yourself with kindness through all of the different experiences in the theatre world.

[3:37] John Tartaglia: Thank you. It definitely comes from my family, my mother, especially, and my grandmother. And definitely from idolizing and looking up to Jim Henson and knowing how he ran his company and his troupe of performers. I obsessed over reading that when I was growing up, and it always stood out to me that he created a place where everyone felt safe and valued. And so that's always been something that's important to me when I walk into a room. I think everyone should feel that.

[4:03] Bobby Steggert: I've always wondered this about you. Did you just, by accident, fall into the Broadway world because of Avenue Q, and this was not what your goal was?

[4:11] John Tartaglia: No, it was very much my goal. I had this dual goal when I was in middle school, really. I always performed. My mother's an actress and a singer, and my father used to be a musical director. So I grew up, before they divorced, I grew up going to see all their shows, and I was always either in the audience or backstage, which really fueled, I think, looking ahead, like where I ended up now, where I kind of skirt both sides of the footlights. But my earliest memories are of sitting in the audience, watching my mom play Golda in Fiddler on the Roof, or my dad in an orchestra pit conducting, or sitting backstage and watching the fog machine work while they were doing La Cage aux Folles, and watching Anne appear for Anne on My Arm. Very distinct, strong memories as a child of that stuff.

[5:05] John Tartaglia: So theater was there from the very beginning. And when I was about seven is when I found puppetry. And it was like, oh, this is another extension of theater. It's just living on television essentially, at least the kind that I found with the Muppets. And they sing, and they act, and they dance, they do voices, all the things I loved to do on stage as a kid. So it was always this double thing. And then when I got to middle school, I had this amazing drama teacher named Debbie Thompson, who I'm still very close with, who really discovered me as a musical theater performer in that way, and started putting me in the shows. And in high school, I played all the leads, and I had that journey. And I got to New York City at 18 to work for the Muppets.

And I was doing that during the day. And then at night, and on our off season, I was going to see Broadway shows. And I was like, okay, I want to do that, too. So it was this very, like, dual thing. And I never thought that I would end up as a lead in an original musical on Broadway. I would have been happy. I would joke, but it's true. I would have been so happy to be like, tree number four in the back of The Lion King, or the man with sticks, number seven. Like, I just wanted to be part of it. I just had this desire to be on Broadway and be part of theater. So I was always, I was either like shooting television, or I was like, in a van doing a TheatreWorks tour or doing Off-Broadway or doing a BMI workshop or something like that. So it was always, yeah, it was always a dual dream.

[6:26] Bobby Steggert: And so when Avenue Q came to the Vineyard, was it like, oh, this is perfect for me. And it just happened to be this magical match between you and the opportunity?

[6:38] John Tartaglia: Very much. I got asked to do the first reading of Avenue Q because Jeff Marks had been an intern at the music department on Sesame Street. And he'll tell you the story, but he was a bad intern, got fired. And soon after, I think, met Bobby, and they both were huge Muppet fans, and they wanted to write this kind of Comedy Central-esque, televised, Avenue Q was not going to be a theater show, it was going to be a TV show originally. It was going to be like, you know, what Crank Anchors was going to end up being, right? A very adult puppet show. So I did the first reading of it. And the reason they asked me was because, and Rick Lion, and they're all very much responsible for me being there, because they're like, we know Johnny does musical theater, and Johnny's this young ingenue who's in the right age for Princeton.

And so I just got asked to do the reading. And then from there on, it just kept growing and growing. But to answer your question, when we got to the Vineyard, I didn't think we'd ever get to Broadway. I was like, oh, this is just an opportunity to show the kind of marriage of what I do, the puppetry and the musical theater together. And I never thought it would become what it became.

[7:43] Bobby Steggert: Wow. Let's back up, because the part that you're interested in sharing is the part of you that holds all your imagination. And what were the ingredients for young Johnny in terms of how deep you went into world building? Because my imagination was connected to relationship, emotion, I would always imagine what dynamics could be or were like, but it seems like you were building entire universes, and it was a much more expansive type of imagination. So what led to that for you?

[8:14] John Tartaglia: I think it was a little bit of what I was saying earlier. I think a lot of it was from birth, basically being exposed to this world of imagination of theater. I'm not kidding when I say I don't remember a time I wasn't in or around the theater or around performance. So I think that's definitely what kickstarted it. And then I think when my parents got divorced, I was about six, I think, when they got divorced. And it's funny, I didn't have this understanding until I was much older. But I think puppetry and creation became my escape and became my safety, very kind of a world that was being rocked. It was, oh, I can make my own things and live inside this imaginary world. And then I'm okay, then I'm safe.

So I feel like that's why I loved Fraggle Rock. And that's why I loved so many of the things that had such an impact on me, because there's one part that was like, oh, I'm performing in front of people. And so that's making people laugh. And that feels really good at a time where I'm a little freaked out by everything. And then there's a part of me that I think just loved just escaping and diving into that.

[9:25] Bobby Steggert: What do you remember about the instability that you experienced so young that was so scary? What was the core of that fear for you when your parents got divorced?

[9:29] John Tartaglia: I think it was the first time. My parents were amazing. Never, ever showing me their attention as a kid. I don't remember them ever disagreeing or fighting. I never saw that. I feel very lucky that they were so protective in front of me that I didn't see that. So I think that it was the shock of everything changing instantly. I can remember everything about the day that they told me they were getting divorced. I remember where I was. I remember I was over my next door neighbor's house watching cartoons. I remember it was like the Shirt Tales, I think was the cartoon we were watching. And I remember getting the call to come home and I came home and my parents were crying. They didn't understand why.

And I remember them telling me. And I just remember it seemed so out of nowhere. It seems so out of nowhere. And the only thing that I had to look back and be like, maybe it was my dad was going away a lot for work, but that was it. But that also was normal to me, because that's what my parents did. They were actors and performers. So I think it was that shock to the system of everything happening quickly and changing. And then we left the house that I grew up in as a child. Then all of a sudden, being in a new house with my mom by ourselves, what does that mean? Where all of a sudden, all I have is my mom and I had two older sisters from my father's first marriage that didn't move with us. And so I wasn't with them anymore. So I think it was just like, immediate shock of change. And again, coming out of nowhere, there was no hint that something was going to come.

[11:03] Bobby Steggert: How did you interpret it? And how did they explain the split?

[11:07] John Tartaglia: They were amazing, because all they said was basically, they were very adamant about saying, we still love you. And you didn't do anything wrong. It really did like the textbook correct way to do this. But they were basically like, you did nothing wrong. We love you. You're amazing. Your sisters are amazing. We just can't be together anymore.

[11:30] Bobby Steggert: The Imagination Part Out Loud podcast is brought to you by The Broadway Podcast Network.

[12:00] John Tartaglia: And yet, you live alone with your mom, following the divorce, and a lot of space is made, it seems.

[12:15] Bobby Steggert: And so was it ultimately that you felt you needed to fill the space with a world of your own creation?

[12:21] John Tartaglia: I think so. And I think I was looking for this place to feel safe in. And it's funny, the other thing that occurred to me as an adult was I found two things at once. I found the world of puppetry and Fraggle Rock, right, which is just an amazing… Fraggle Rock's all about this other world that's underground that you can get to if you know how to and it's a secret and it's exciting, right? So that felt super exciting. And it's this magical utopia where everyone's welcome and everyone's valued. And even though you might drive each other crazy, there's love for each other in those differences. So there's that. And then I think on the real side of things, here was this person, this father-like figure, Jim Henson, who was this kind man who created all of these characters and things that impacted the world in such a positive way and brought joy.

And so then I think I had this dual attraction to the fantasy of it and also just like that I want to do what he does. I want to be part of it. I want to make people happy like this father-like figure did. So it's interesting, like, I didn't obviously have that autonomy as a kid to know that, any of that. But as an adult, I'm like, oh, okay, that makes sense. I can see why I was searching for that for sure.

[13:35] Bobby Steggert: Of course. Yeah, as you explained it, it feels like a very natural attraction.

[13:40] John Tartaglia: Yeah, I didn't have those words or that understanding. But I remember seeing Jim Henson for the first time. And this was at the time when he was hosting the Jim Henson Hour, which was like, if you remember, the wonderful world of Disney with Walt Disney, where he'd be like, hi, everyone, and talk to the camera. Jim was doing something very similar to that. And he did a lot of behind the scenes stuff where he would explain things. And there was just something so kind and gentle and approachable about him. And I think that was just, that felt really safe to me.

[14:05] Bobby Steggert: So you were taking in the world. Were you also expanding upon the world by using your imagination to create stories with the characters from that world?

[14:15] John Tartaglia: Oh, yeah, there are audio cassettes, which I wish I knew where they were, because I'm sure they would be used against me for the rest of my life to humiliate me. But there's audio cassettes that I used to make in my bedroom of original Fraggle Rock stories of me doing all the voices. I just had the wherewithal to, I was like, oh, I need to record these brilliant stories when I was making it at six and seven years old of me doing what I thought were great voices that basically sound exactly the same. And again, I just had this faucet of imagination and creativity that this world allowed. And then I would also make other things, too. I became obsessed with…we'd never been at that point to Walt Disney World.

My family couldn't afford it. This was the 80s where every five minutes there was a commercial on TV for it. And I would call the toll-free line you could call for your vacation planning kit. I would call that at eight years old, and they would send me all the brochures and all the VHS vacation videos. And I became crazy obsessed with it, and I would memorize the maps. I knew where every attraction was and where every bathroom was, and I became obsessed with the country bear jamboree and animatronics. I would try to make it in my room. I would try to recreate it in my room.

[15:28] Bobby Steggert: Were you using electronics in your room?

[15:31] John Tartaglia: No, I was using…I mean, I would take cardboard and paper and remake the characters, draw them, and then I would add…this is crazy…I would attach yarn or pieces of string to them and then tie that to my record player so it would create movement.

[15:47] Bobby Steggert: Oh my god!

[15:49] John Tartaglia: I know, it was great. I loved like Showbiz Pizza Place and Chuck E. Cheese, the animatronics. That was a big thing for me. I just got really excited about that. And so much obsession about it that when we finally went to Disney World when I was like 10 or 11, when my mother remarried my wonderful stepfather who took us for the first time, it was scary. It was like I walked in and I knew where everything was. My parents were like, how do you know where the bathroom is? I was like, oh, it's right next to the treehouse over there. You can go between the tiki room and the country bears. They were like, how do you know?

[16:16] John Tartaglia: You had done the work.

[16:47] Bobby Steggert: Yeah, of course I'm thinking about being gay as another added layer to it. And more generally, were you inviting other kids or other people into these worlds or were they private?

[17:01] John Tartaglia: That's a good question. They definitely weren't private in the sense of I wasn't like, you're not allowed. If anything, I loved watching people feel joyful. It made me feel, I don't want to say important, but maybe it was important. I think it made me feel special to be able to do a puppet show for when my grandmother was very important to me. When she would come to visit, it was always like showtime. Like I'd put up like a sheet on my door and always do a show. And the way she and my mother would value my imagination and they would be so like, how did you do that? And they weren't doing like the kid thing of like, how did you do that? When they're like, okay, we know. I think they were genuinely like, did you make those puppets?

And how did you make those things move? And how did you figure out? I was obsessed with special effects. I wanted to make a confetti can and then I figured out how to take a piece of Tupperware container and put a little launcher in it so confetti would blow out. I just loved making and creating. I think that they were always, it was exciting to me to see them be so excited by what I was doing. And when I would have friends come over, some of them didn't want anything to do with it, of course, but others did and they got into it. So I think it was an entry level for some people into understanding my imagination.

[18:13] Bobby Steggert: We'll be right back. So what about school? Were you also a good student? Or did the center of gravity go towards these worlds you were building so that school was not a priority?

[18:30] John Tartaglia: In elementary school, I was definitely like a dork. You know what I mean? And I boldly looking back, I wore my, my difference when I was younger, not when I was older, but when I was younger, I was in like the 79 year years old range. I remember going to school with like new kids on the block, hot pink hat, which is maybe not the coolest thing for a boy to wear at that age. And my Fraggle Rock tote bag, boldly owning it. I was a pretty good student in elementary school. But then when I got to middle school and high school, my mom remarried when I was 10 or 11. And I think when I hit that age, we moved to a brand new place, a very different town from the one I grew up in. It's hard when you're, I think it was seventh grade was my first year there.

And that's a hard year to start because everyone's had a year or two to adjust out of elementary school and I'm coming in the middle of that. But anyway, I think that's when it became more difficult because then all of a sudden I was entering into like the teen years and then being gay really started becoming a thing. And I was a slightly effeminate and I think people picked up on that and I did theater and that wasn't cool. So I think then I wanted to escape more into my creativity. And then even though I liked school relatively, I don't think I put the effort in until I had a principal actually at my middle school step in and it was amazing and basically took an interest in me and basically helped me become a better student.

But yeah, for me, it was like I'd sit in school and just think about the thing I wanted to do when I got home. I just want to build that puppet or make that thing or create that video or whatever it was that I wanted to do to get away.

[20:08] Bobby Steggert: How did it evolve as you became older and more sophisticated as you learned? If you're using a record player and string as an eight year old, what were you doing when you were 18?

[20:17] John Tartaglia: By the time I was 14 is when I started professionally getting opportunities to pursue my puppetry because of a bunch of amazing things that led to my ability to be in contact with the people at Henson and the Muppets that do casting.

[20:37] Bobby Steggert: How did you find them? How did they find you?

[20:39] John Tartaglia: It's a magical story. And I've lived my life with the idea of everything happens for a reason. And that I do really strongly believe that we're guided by a voice if we listen to it.

[20:51] Bobby Steggert: Do you mean a voice that is wisdom?

[20:54] John Tartaglia: I think so. I think so. And some people define it as a connection to something beyond them. Some people define it as just their intuition. But I've always felt like things happen as they're supposed to, good or bad.

[21:07] John Tartaglia: And when I was eight, I wrote a letter to Jim Henson. I was very eight year old in the sense of like a guy who literally drew it in crayon. But I basically said in the letter, you're my hero. I want to work for you. And I remember the thing that stood out to me looking back at it is I said, when I'm 18, because I'd read that one of his performers did this, I'm going to move to New York City and I'm going to work for the Muppets. Full stop. Standed off. Didn't hear anything for almost a year. And now as an adult who's aware of the world and more cynical than I used to be, I'd be like, oh, he just didn't respond. But at eight, I was like, oh, he just didn't get it. And so the kind of magical part starts where literally the day that I was sitting down to write from another letter, I was a latchkey kid, so I would be home by myself after school. I was by myself writing this letter to Jansen and I get a knock at the door and it's a postman with a package that didn't fit in the mailbox. And it was a package from the Jim Henson Company.

[22:05] John Tartaglia: And inside was this beautiful eight by 10 signed autograph from Jim of him and the Muppets to me directly. And then there was a letter from the secretary that was a very lovely letter, essentially saying that Jim was very busy shooting a movie, but he got my letter. He got my letter. He wanted to make sure I had this signed thing. So I was ecstatic. Right. Then fast forward another six months or so, let's say, and I get called to the principal's office at school and the secretary says, there's a phone call from you from a woman. And I thought it was my mom because my mom, again, worked a job during the day and I was by myself. Pick it up. And it's the casting director for the new Mickey Mouse Club, the one that stars Justin Timberlake and Britney Spears, where they were discovered.

And I was a huge fan of that show. And I think I had written them fan postcards. I don't think that's how she got to me because she basically said to me, I don't know if you know about this thing that we do called Guest Day, where we have our guests.

[24:00] John Tartaglia: Growing up, I had this single-minded goal of one day working for Jim Henson and the Muppets. It was like a dream that I held onto for so long, and now, forty years later, I find myself as the creative supervisor for Fraggle Rock, the very show that helped me heal from my parents' divorce and envision a future of creative success.

[24:30] John Tartaglia: My imagination has always guided me with optimism and kindness. It's incredible how that has allowed me to manifest my childhood dream into reality. I think about how important it is to hold onto that sense of wonder and creativity, especially in a world that can sometimes feel overwhelming.

[25:16] John Tartaglia: I remember being a kid and just wanting to create. I would spend hours imagining different worlds and characters, and that sense of play has never really left me. It's a powerful tool, and I believe it can help us navigate through life's challenges.

[25:42] John Tartaglia: The lessons I've learned along the way have been invaluable. It's not just about achieving your dreams; it's about the journey and the people you meet along the way. Those connections can inspire you and push you to be better.

[26:08] John Tartaglia: I think one of the biggest challenges is to stay true to yourself while also being open to change. Life is constantly evolving, and so are we. Embracing that change can lead to unexpected opportunities and growth.

[26:34] John Tartaglia: I often reflect on how my experiences have shaped my creativity. The struggles I've faced have fueled my imagination and allowed me to create work that resonates with others. It's a beautiful cycle of inspiration and healing.

[27:16] John Tartaglia: I also believe in the power of kindness. In this industry, it's easy to get caught up in competition and comparison, but I think it's essential to lift each other up. Supporting fellow artists can create a more positive environment for everyone.

[27:46] John Tartaglia: As I continue to work on Fraggle Rock, I find myself constantly inspired by the stories we tell. Each character has a unique journey, and I love being part of that creative process. It reminds me of why I fell in love with storytelling in the first place.

[28:12] John Tartaglia: Ultimately, I want to encourage others to embrace their imagination and let it guide them. It's a powerful force that can lead to incredible things, and I hope to inspire the next generation of creators to dream big and stay true to themselves.

[34:31] John Tartaglia: The imagination has always been a guiding force for me. It's like a compass that points towards creativity and possibility. Growing up, I was always encouraged to dream big and think outside the box, which has shaped my journey in the arts.

[35:01] John Tartaglia: I remember vividly the moments when I would lose myself in my imagination, creating entire worlds and characters. It was a form of escapism that allowed me to process my feelings, especially during challenging times like my parents' divorce.

[35:31] John Tartaglia: That experience taught me the power of storytelling and how it can heal. It’s fascinating how imagination can serve as a tool for not just creativity but also for emotional resilience.

[36:01] John Tartaglia: As I grew older, I realized that my imagination wasn't just a childhood pastime; it was a vital part of who I am. It has led me to incredible opportunities, including working with the Muppets and being involved in projects that resonate with my values.

[36:31] John Tartaglia: The journey has been about manifesting those dreams into reality. I often reflect on how my imagination has opened doors and created pathways that I never thought possible.

[37:01] John Tartaglia: I think it's important to nurture that imaginative spirit, no matter where you are in life. It can guide you through uncertainty and inspire you to take bold steps forward.

[37:31] John Tartaglia: In my role as the creative supervisor for Fraggle Rock, I get to blend my love for puppetry with my passion for storytelling. It's a dream come true, and I feel incredibly grateful to be part of a legacy that has impacted so many lives.

[37:49] John Tartaglia: The characters and stories we create have the potential to connect with audiences on a deep level, and that's something I take very seriously.

[38:19] John Tartaglia: I often ask myself where my imagination will take me next. It's an exciting question that keeps me motivated and curious about the future.

[38:49] John Tartaglia: I believe that imagination is a powerful force that can inspire change and foster empathy. It encourages us to see the world through different lenses and understand diverse perspectives.

[39:19] John Tartaglia: As I continue my journey, I hope to inspire others to embrace their imagination and use it as a tool for personal growth and creativity.

[39:49] John Tartaglia: Ultimately, it's about finding joy in the process and allowing your imagination to lead the way.

[40:19] John Tartaglia: I think we all have the capacity to dream and create. It's just a matter of tapping into that inner voice and letting it guide us.

[40:49] John Tartaglia: So, where have I ended up as a result of my imagination? I would say I've arrived at a place of fulfillment, where I can express myself authentically and contribute to something larger than myself.

[41:07] Bobby Steggert: Where have you ended up as a result of your imagination?

[41:37] John Tartaglia: I've ended up in a space where I can collaborate with other artists who share my vision. It's a community that thrives on creativity and support, which is incredibly rewarding.

[42:07] John Tartaglia: Being part of projects that resonate with audiences and bring joy to people's lives is a testament to the power of imagination.

[42:37] John Tartaglia: I feel like I'm living proof that if you nurture your dreams and stay true to your imaginative spirit, amazing things can happen.

[43:07] John Tartaglia: It's about believing in yourself and your vision, even when the path seems uncertain.

[43:37] John Tartaglia: I encourage everyone to embrace their imagination and let it guide them towards their own unique journey.

[44:07] John Tartaglia: The possibilities are endless when you allow yourself to dream and create without limitations.

[44:37] John Tartaglia: So, I invite everyone to explore their imagination and see where it takes them. You might be surprised by the destinations you discover.

[45:07] John Tartaglia: Remember, the journey is just as important as the destination, and every step along the way is an opportunity for growth.

[45:37] John Tartaglia: Let's continue to celebrate the power of imagination and the incredible stories it can bring to life.