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[0:00] Robert Bannon: Welcome to The Roundtable, everybody. My name is Robert Bannon. You're listening to us on Broadway World over here on the Broadway Podcast Network, iHeart, Spotify, wherever you listen to artists talking about art. Dave and Jon are here. They have Radical Media, and they are the producers behind some incredible documentaries, documentaries that the second they came out, the one that's on HBO right now about Earth, Wind & Fire, you have not seen it. It is incredible. They are incredible, incredible. We were at Tribeca, too. They're fancy. We had a fancy night. Opening night, 25th anniversary, you can't complain. Can't beat that. You can't beat that. They have done the most incredible work. They have had so many documentaries that have won awards, and you've seen them like Summer of Soul, or the, which is an Academy Award winning doc, or the Lil Nas X doc, or Blackpink.

They're here. They're here. You guys are, where's my documentary? I have things to say. Congratulations. How did this start? Jon, how did this start? How did this relationship start and the company start?

[1:11] Jon Kamen: You know, well, company's been around a long time. We always have kind of had a DNA in music. A little of it has to do with a late brother who was a composer who worked with a lot of artists who got to know me as his brother, Johnny. And it was Michael Kamen, the composer. But ultimately, I think for Radical, the first significant music project was a concert for George. And in my lifetime, I never thought I would know a Beatle, let alone have him become a good friend. Beyond that, to be asked by his wife and family to produce his memorial at Royal Albert Hall. And as some old guy said at Royal Albert Hall, have you ever done this before, son? And I said, no. He said, you just keep doing it. And we had a pretty successful Grammy Award winning concert that has been running on PBS and around the world for 20 something years and people still write and appreciate it.

So it was the beginning of it. We did Metallica, some kind of monster right after that. Jay-Z and Beyonce walked into the office with a DVD of Concert for George when Jay was going to be retiring from his performing and we produced Fade to Black. And the rest sort of became history. But some of that history was with Dave because Dave was over at MTV. And with our relationships and our friendships, we ended up producing some shows for Dave of some upcoming artists, a couple of them that you might never heard of. But yeah, so I, you know, I was at MTV for 28 years, and I ran the news department for a long time and eventually was executive producer and on the Video Music Awards and many, many, many of our live concerts and our music documentaries, our long form documentaries in general on MTV and many of our events, many, many, many of our events and Total Request Live, which was music every day and performances every day.

And along the way, we wanted to start a series of documentaries on future stars, on people who were right at that moment where they were about to break. And we thought that they would have a great story. And we had worked together, MTV News and myself at Radical on a couple of things, smaller things. And we said, well, let's see if we could team up on this particular series of docs. And it worked out really nicely. We did a doc on Drake right when he was recording his first album with Nicki Minaj when she was recording her first album with Lady Gaga, Lady Gaga, Demi Lovato and Ed Sheeran and Miley Cyrus. And almost all of them, aside from Miley, who had already been, you know, famous through Disney, almost all of them were at that moment where they were just starting on the rise.

And it was sort of an open field. And nobody really knew what was going to happen and which way it was going to go, including the artists themselves. And so therefore, as a viewer, you didn't really know what was going to happen. You were watching them go for this ride. And when you're watching Drake record his first album and then watching it come out and he becomes Drake or Nicki, you know, or Ed Sheeran, you know, you you're able to catch something at a moment. And we made some really fun films that way. And they did very nicely. And when I left MTV, you called. Well, you know, one of the things I always used to say that when anybody worked with Dave as an executive at MTV, he made us better at what we do.

And so it was never a question of, you know, knowing he would be here to lift and further our ambitions in the music space was super exciting. And we continued and continue to this day. But we always say it's music is in our DNA. We can't, you know, it's like we do lots of things here at Radical, but a great music project, a meaningful music project that maybe is something more than just what we think it is on the surface is something that we're constantly looking for.

[5:37] Robert Bannon: I love that so much. I love how Dave explained what TRL was to this 43-year-old man from New Jersey who grew up obsessed with it. Did you ever come to our studio? Were you over there? I would wait. I was a 16, 17-year-old kid who would wait across from the Lion King to see the artists leave the stage door. OK. All right. Pass Schubert Alley. You probably shooed me away from being here. Here's the question. Did you ever like record the episode of TRL, come into the city and see yourself later on camera?

[6:15] Jon Kamen: Well, I was too. I was not OK. I didn't stand in Times Square like all the other guys with the signs, but I would wait because I knew they would leave that. And I remember Ricky Martin and I remember seeing, you know, through those days and I still probably have a CD. Ricky Martin's I was a music nerd. I was I went to Juilliard. Eventually I was a nerd. And that's why I love music documentaries. I do not miss a music documentary. Awesome. When I see something like Earth, Wind and Fire, which is now on HBO, which you need to sit down and watch because I John, I grew up. My dad was obsessed. We would go to other concerts, listen to the albums. You know, he was into the horns, the blasting the horns on the old headphones. I didn't know that the story.

[6:56] Jon Kamen: Yeah, well, that it's interesting you point that out, because when we started working on this and we were fortunate enough to team up with Amir Thompson, right, who we have done a number of projects with Summer of Soul, our fourth project, Sly, the SNL, you know, the music of SNL and Earth, Wind and Fire. And we have a great, great, great time working together. And one of the first things in a conversation that we were both talking about is how very few people know anything about Earth, Wind and Fire, yet they're not only such a legendary band, they're still so active today and their music is everywhere. And so our organizing principle that we use throughout the whole film was Earth, Wind and Fire, the world's most beloved band you know the least about.

And that's really what the film became, because Amir is an enormous musicologist. You know, he is he is an incredible storyteller, an incredible director, and he loves Earth, Wind and Fire. And there were parts of the story he didn't know. I love music, love music storytelling and built, you know, a big portion of my career on music storytelling. And I grew up on Earth, Wind and Fire, similar to yourself. I used to save my money and go out and buy all those albums from That's the Way of the World on. Every time they would come out, Gratitude and Spirit and All in All, I would go and buy them as soon as they came out. And I studied those records.

[8:19] Robert Bannon: You still have them on?

[8:20] Jon Kamen: I still have those original, the original records. I still listen to them. And I didn't know a lot. And we would look at each other and say, like, well, if we don't know a lot and this means a lot to us, we can imagine that a lot of other people don't know a lot. And so sometimes the thing when you're telling a music story is you've got a subject at the center of it that everybody thinks they know the story. This was the complete opposite. You would say like during the couple of years we were making this, people say, oh, hey, what are you working on? And say, oh, you know, this upcoming Earth, Wind and Fire film. They go, oh, my God, that's great. I don't know anything about them. And we knew like, OK, that's a different kind of responsibility, right?

Because you're filling in the story for everybody that very, very few people knew. It's different when you're telling the story of someone that people know much, much more about, where whether it's through books or films or other documentaries or just because they're fairly loquacious about themselves, it's a different kind of thing, right? So with Earth, Wind and Fire, we knew that we were going to have to fill this in for a lot of people. So if you love them, not only do you see Philip Bailey and Bradeen White and Ralph Johnson speaking, you see a whole bunch of people. You see Maurice White's partner. You see like, I don't know if I'd want to be married to him. He was a genius, but what a complicated relationship.

You see him, you know, spoiler alert, how he deals with the personalities within the band, how they got back together and have still come through a lot of trauma, tumultuous personal relationships with each other. I've never fired my brother. I've wanted to fire my brother, but I've never fired him yet. This is a scandalous story to the greatest music, literally, of the past hundred years.

[10:06] Robert Bannon: John, when someone, how do the ideas come to you? People come to you and say, I want to make a doc or you go to them?

[10:15] Jon Kamen: We do get approached, you know, we've had a history of it because of the quality of the work that we've done, I guess, and reputation is always an open door here at Radical. We're based in New York. A lot of artists seem to go up Hudson Street, knocking on our door. And we were always open to hearing ideas. And I think that from that, we've had some incredible experiences because you can't make it up when within a two week period, you have somebody like a Paul Simon walk in wondering whether or not it's a good idea to make a documentary on Graceland and the recording of that album 25 years earlier. And a week or two weeks later, his next door neighbor and friend Sting happens to come by to see if we thought it was a good idea to make a documentary on the 25th anniversary of his solo career.

And actually, we told we said yes to Paul. And we said, no, probably not a good idea for Sting. And yet we did a lot of other work with Sting and some really great projects with Sting. So and a concert with Sting at the Beacon that we'll never forget. So we kind of use that, you know, the artists come to us, the estates come to us in the case of Earth, Wind and Fire, it was almost a byproduct of we were working with Fifth Season, our partners on the on Earth, Wind and Fire. They had been talking to us about another documentary that we're just about completing that they were somewhat passing on. And yet they rebounded with we'd love to have you guys consider working with us on Earth, Wind and Fire project.

And it was like, wow, perfect. And we had obviously been working with Amir and Amir had just gotten sort of, to be part of that had just become attached to that. And so we're like, well, if it's with Amir, absolutely. It's Earth, Wind and Fire. Absolutely. And it all sort of came to be and, you know, and working with, you know, so much of it is about trust. And so much of it is about really is forming a relationship with the artists themselves. Or if it's something like with Earth, Wind and Fire, it's forming the relationship with Ralph and Philip and Verdine, but Maurice's family, right? And the people who work for Maurice's family, the estates. Starting with KB. Yeah. And it's all about trust.

And the trust starts because, you know, most of the time people have seen the kind of work we've done, we've done so that they, they see the value set that we have in there and they see the kind of films we make. So that's the starting spot, which is good. But then it really is spending time together and talking about what the project could be and what the film could be and how we operate and the way they operate. And it really becomes about, okay, if you're going to trust us with your story, we will honor you and trust this story. You know, we'll, we'll make it great for you. You, what we're going to ask you is to be open with us and be authentic, you know, and not hold back. And then therefore what we're going to make is going to be honest.

And when it's honest and truthful, it is also celebratory. It is, then it makes the, it has the opportunity for greatness to come out when, you know, when there's been the trust from the beginning. That's how we feel.

[13:43] Jon Kamen: You know, it's, it's funny because when you ask that question, it's, it's often managers of estates. We've done a lot of films, obviously, with estates. Notably, one that was actually the beginning of the first original Netflix documentary, which was What Happened Miss Simone, which was the Nina Simone project, came to us through the estate first and a connection to and a connection to the estate and one of the producing partners of us with us. He knew us, trusted us. Famously, no one had made a definitive documentary on, on Nina Simone because the rights were very complicated amongst different rights holders, et cetera. We earned Lisa Simone's trust with Liz Garbus. We, we chose Liz because we believed she would get along well with Lisa.

We actually did a little test trial to make sure that there was a chemistry between them. And, you know, and that was kind of a legendary start for even Netflix because up until then, Netflix was only acquiring documentaries. What Happened Miss Simone was their first commission of an original Netflix documentary. And we took that all the way to the Academy Awards. We opened the Sundance Film Festival with a legendary John Legend concert after the premiere. So we have a little reputation for adding some theatrics to our, our, our premieres, but couldn't ask for a better opening night for, for Sundance. But to take that film all the way to the Academy Awards was an honor that, you know, for us and, and what Lisa Simone, Simone got out of the story in our own research and our own handling of her mother's story was, was absolutely significant to us.

And, and it also in a funny way led to Summer of Salt because when we discovered some of the archive for What Happened Miss Simone was when we began to realize there was this other concert that deserved as much attention. And I think you're right, John, when you think about how the relationships form, you know, if you are an artist or themselves, or if you are a family member, right, representing an estate, you know, they, they want to know who they're working with. They want to know that there is a camaraderie there. They want to know that there is a trust and you want to get to know each other as people. And you know, with Earth, Wind and Fire, spending time with KB and Aaron, who manages the estate with, with KB, you spend time together and you talk and you hang out.

And one of the, one of the early things that we did was they invited us, Amir and myself and our archivist to go to Maurice's, one of Maurice's storage units in LA. He saved everything. And he had a garage size storage unit in just a regular storage unit facility. And we had been talking and we've had a couple of meetings, but they said, come out, look at all this, you know, archival material, look and see what there is that you like, but also hang out with us. So Amir and I and our, and our archivist, Jeff, we went out there and we roll up this door and we go in and for about a few hours, we're just looking at everything that much of which ended up in the film. But at the same time, we're really getting to know KB and Aaron and we're talking and we're hanging out and we're looking at things together.

And some things are very emotional to look at. And some things are really amazing to look at. And we find, we find a box that's got kalimbas in them. And, you know, we're very careful with everything. And we say, Hey, can we, can we, you know, can we take one out? And, you know, Amir lifts one out carefully and he takes it out and he plays it a little bit. And it was beautiful. And we're finding things that were just photos and things that KB hadn't seen in a long time. And, you know, things that were business-wise and Maurice had a lot of planners, right? Like books, you know, where the whole planner of what you're doing every day. And it was intense, all the things he was doing at one time.

And we felt like we're really getting to know him because we're there with his son, because we're there with Aaron, but because we're in it and we're getting to look at everything and read things and take it out. And we were encouraged, they were so open to look at and, and, and absorb everything and anything you want, understand it all. And then we started, you know, photographing pieces of it, things that were already photographs or, or videotapes or audio tapes, we started to remove to get ready for the edit. And it was a really beautiful experience and a great way to spend time together, to get to know each other. And, and it worked. And, you know, I think part of it is what you see on screen is that trust and KB obviously is on screen talking about his dad and talking about the band and he's, he's incredible.

And we feel really honored that so many people who knew Earth, Wind & Fire or around Earth, Wind & Fire feel great about the film. Verdine and Philip and Ralph, you know, at that opening night and afterwards were just, you know, they were very, very happy in the way it was presented and, and really, really enjoyed that it was honest, you know, and that it wasn't just the highlights, but it was the full picture. That's probably one of the greatest rewards when, when we've worked with so many of these estates and families and, and, and living artists, you know, Keith Richards and Under the Influence. They, they, we've never left a relationship in which they haven't appreciated how we've handled the telling their story.

And it's, you know, it continues with ongoing relationships as a result and trust, but, but, you know, as documentarians, you know, you're essentially, you're, you're journalists, you know, you, you have to learn more about who your subject is. You have to structure a story. You have to get that story right. And whether you're working with a living artist or, or within a state it's a responsibility that we've always felt we have to bear. And we've had, you know, we also try very hard to be uniquely original with each and every film and finding the particular zeitgeist of that moment, the finding that period of time, you know, that might separate one artist from another, but the issues around bigger stories than just their music that we, we, we search for.

And again, it, it generally allows us to accomplish not making a cookie cutter documentary. And especially in the age, in the age that we live in with the internet and everything, you can, you can look up whatever you want about anybody, right? So you want to know which albums, what were the order of the albums for Earth, Wind and Fire? You know, you can do that. You can do that. It's, but, but for us, finding the story is not just sharing information. It's finding a story. And a story is something that resonates with you. A story is something that will stay with you. A story is something that when, when we made the film with Nick Sweeney and our producer, Samantha Mastari from here at Radical about Noah, the Noah Kondak.

[21:24] Robert Bannon: On Netflix.

[21:25] Jon Kamen: On Netflix. Now. When we were making that film and when you watch that film, you may be a big fan of Noah's, right? And you may love the, you know, the, the Stick Season album, Now, Great Divide, which has come out, you know, since the film, but you may not know what Noah was feeling in those times. And we want to bring you closer to the story of Noah and what Noah was going through. Not just the information, dot, dot, dot, right? Not just the, this single, that song, that, you know, that chart position, that's all well and good. And they all have a role in the films we make, but we really strive for story, right? What's the underlying message. And we also try to find the universal aspect to any of these stories, right?

You have just mentioned to us, you love Earth, Wind and Fire. There was something about that music when you were listening to it, that you saw something in yourself in that music. It may be through your father. It may be through others, but most likely there's something in that music that really connects with you, that you see something in yourself. We know that's the case with almost all music, right? And that's what fandom is about is a connection. Well, okay. So our, our job as storytellers is to say, we want to find that depth. What is it that makes people connect and find that? Why is it that people connected to Lil Nas X and bring that forward? Why is it that people to this day connect with Nina Simone?

Why is it that right now Noah Khan is on this incredible tour, stadium, baseball stadium tour? Why is it that they're connecting so much? Well, a lot of that has to do with the way you tell a story. It's the way he shares his music, writes his music, but for us, it's the way we tell those stories and shape those stories. Nick Sweeney as the director, Amir Thompson as the director, all the directors that we work with, it's about working with them to tell the story the best way we can so that people feel something when they're watching it. And it's not just this recitation. And the hope is that if you are a Noah fan and you've watched his process, that's in our doc of him writing this new album, that when you listen to the song, The Great Divide or the song Doors, they're both incredible songs on their own.

But when you've seen the doc, there's a lot more behind it. For Earth, Wind and Fire, these songs have been sung for the last 50 years. People have been singing along to Shining Star since it first came out. Well, when you realize what the idea of the song was, not but the message of it, why they wrote it, this idea of uplifting, this idea of a manifestation that if you sing over and over Shining Star for, you know, the notion of that lyric, you know, of what you could be, I could be a Shining Star. And by saying it and singing it over and over, he believed, Maurice and Philip, that it could become true. And so when we share those stories, we find that the message gets more important, right?

It gets bigger and more connective as a viewer. People who don't, maybe don't know much about Earth, Wind and Fire, maybe they're not the biggest fans, come away from that film or the Noah film or many of the, all these music films that we've made, Summer of Soul, with a deeper identification. With Noah specifically, you know, it's a universal story at the heart of it, which is, and we found this to be true as we were making it. Nick and Sam and I, we were talking about this all the time and Stacey Rees, one of our other producers, this notion that Noah was going through the classic story of, should I stay or should I go? I love where I'm from in Vermont. This town, this shaped me, but I knew I had to go somewhere else to try to pursue what I wanted to be.

But as soon as I got away from this town and this area, he felt, he felt disconnected. He felt a little lost. He was searching for who he was and as documented in the film, he was having trouble communicating it through song. And then he realizes that he has to go home. And when he does go home to Vermont, it starts to settle in for him. And it's a classic story. And it's a story that you may never be a great songwriter or a songwriter or a musician, but I think there's millions and millions of people in the world who have struggled with that. Should I stay? Should I go? Is this, is this just because I'm comfortable? I want to stay here. These are my people. This is who shaped me, but maybe there's something else out there for me.

Should I go pursue that thing out there? It's scary. What's going to happen when I'm out there? And maybe you get out there and it all works and maybe it doesn't. That's, that's something that's bigger. That's a universal idea that we felt Noah was living and we could help bring that out through the story that you may be living that yourself, or maybe that was in your past. And you go, I connect with that. And I see what Noah was going through. And I feel more bonded to Noah because of that. He's an incredible musician and how he resolved it is obviously in the doc. You got to watch the doc.

[27:02] Jon Kamen: One thing that's somewhat fascinating about the process we've seen so happen so often is making a film about a subject like Noah is almost for them cathartic. It's they, they, it opens another door for artists. You know, it allows for them to almost see themselves in that mirror. They realize it, you know, and open up in a way like I've seen it happen to us so many times where it's like, holy cow, he's inviting us to his home. Holy cow. We're, you know, we're, we're going here. We're going there. We're no longer, you know, begging to get inside where we are inside. We're being welcomed in versus like, oh, how much time do I have to spend with these guys? It's become the opposite. It's, it's, everybody's benefited from the experience together.

And a lot of that has to do with the way in which our various directors and teams have dealt with the subjects and being able to connect with them on a level that allows us into that story. I mean, the same, it's, it's just happened repeatedly so many times. And incredible editors who we work with, you have that, that eye for that as well, right? Guide through that, you know, Tim Ziegler is an amazing editor who was the lead editor on Earth, Wind, and Fire and Paul Little on Noah Kahn. And Josh Pearson on Summer of Salt. And Sly. You know, it's, it's that team that gets built and a director, producers, a cinematographer, an editor. It's one of the joys of filmmaking and documentary filmmaking is you build this team together.

And when you all start seeing it the same way and striving for the greatness, that's always around the corner, you know, you're always pushing each other. Like, well, can we make that a little better? Could we find a better way to say that? Could, is there another way to express this? Are we really putting these two things back to back because we think it's just convenient or because it's the best thing it will possibly be for the film? And pushing each other. And when you have a really great community like that, small community that you build, it, it makes these things work and it makes them, and you have incredible leaders. You need a great director who's a leader, who has a vision and who says, this is what I see moving forward. And we're fortunate to have worked with so many of these great people.

[29:12] Robert Bannon: I also think that in music docs, it's about the feel. You want the Noah film to feel like his music and you need to feel that music. And I think you need people who understand and feel music to be able to do that. Earth, Wind & Fire's film, that needs to feel like Earth, Wind & Fire, which is different than Noah or Nina Simone, right? It's that Barton Fink feeling. I love your work so much. I encourage people to watch everything that they do. If you have Netflix, which you do, you need to watch the Noah doc. If you have HBO Max, you need to watch the Earth, Wind & Fire doc. If you've never seen the Nina Simone doc, it's gorgeous. And if you're, if you, if you have Apple TV, you have to see the, the Bono stories of Surrender doc.

And if you're on Hulu, you gotta watch Summer of Soul. They're on everything. And the SNL, the SNL 50, ladies and gentlemen, 50 years of SNL on Peacock is, is a really, really fun, different kind of film because that's one where we all did watch it happen, right? But just from different eras. So there's a different way to have to tell that kind of story when it's something that you've already seen. How do you then tell that story?

[30:30] Jon Kamen: So I've seen them all.

[30:32] Robert Bannon: Well, we thank you for watching them all. You yourself performed in On the Road and Rent. If you haven't seen Rent on Broadway, or you haven't seen Hamilton, go watch those too. They're pretty good.

[30:45] Jon Kamen: Oh, stop. He's obsessed with me. You know, John's obsessed with, I was going to say, forget TRL. I'm hanging out at your office. If Sting is rolling on by and Paul Simon, that's the spot to be. I'm going to be outside with a sign there. And all my Broadway fans out there, if you love live, you know, they, what do they call them now? The Pro Shots. If you love all the Pro Shots, they, and you remember when Hamilton ushered in the Pro Shot, this team, this group is really the people that have been at the forefront of all that. So if it's Broadway, if it's music docs, if it's anything involved with entertainment, telling the truth and telling stories, these are the people that do it. You are the ones who do it.

[31:24] Jon Kamen: Thank you, Robert. Well, we're proud of it. And as you can tell, we have a lot of passion and love for it too.

[31:30] Robert Bannon: The best is yet to come though. There's still so many more stories.

[31:34] Jon Kamen: That is true.

[31:34] Robert Bannon: Good ones coming out this year.

[31:35] Jon Kamen: We have some great ones coming out this year.

[31:37] Robert Bannon: If I see Questlove now, I'm going to say, I'm going to call him Amir, and I'm going to tell him that John and Dave, they, you both told me to call him that.

[31:44] Jon Kamen: I love it. It's Amir. It's Quest, this is Questlove, everybody. Academy Awards winning films and documentaries. So make sure you follow, all the info about will be below where you can check it out. My show is your show. I hope when the next one comes out, you come on back and say, hey, and tell us all about it.

[32:00] Jon Kamen: Thank you, Robert.

[32:01] Robert Bannon: Thank you, guys.