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[0:16] Robert Bannon: Welcome to the round table, everybody. My name is Robert Bannon. You're listening to us on the Broadway Podcast Network. I'm so excited to talk today. It's Pride and Pride. There needs to be representation in all art forms. It's not just theater and television and film. But what about literary? What about music? What about poetry? What about drawings, paintings? We need to see queer representation, queer life represented in all art forms. So when I heard all about TJ Armand and his new book of poetry, firstly, TJ is just not does everything. TJ is a producer, he's a musician. He went to Berklee, so he's a fancy musician. He has and he created his very own everybody. You know, it's not just what's one thing to work with people like Chaka Khan and Manhattan Transfer.

It's one thing to produce "Merrily We Roll Along" and "The Great Comet," but it's another thing to create your own publishing company for music and for literary works as well. TJ Armand, welcome to the show.

[1:17] TJ Armand: Thank you. Thank you, Robert. Thank you so much. Well, you know, the minute I was informed that they were banning queer books, that was it for me. I was like, tell me that, and I'll start a whole network. You know. And that was it, really. I mean, with the minute they decided that literary queer representation is the first to go, I noticed that literary works, as well as our, you know, Broadway works and everything else, nothing got banned except for the literary ones, which was very interesting that they went there first. And they, I mean, you know, fascists, and by fascists I mean Republicans. But the point here is also that, you know, I've been writing poetry for a long, long time, but you know, my sense of poetry is much like Chan Chan, it's a bit humorous.

And I don't have any censorship. Sorry. Um, that's this is not G-rated, but I did select some PG ones for you. Um, to give a little bit of an example. But well, I hear that you call it in the press release at least calls it a blend, it's stand-up comedy performance art. Like it's supposed to be a slice of life. It's not all serious. It is some of it is fun and some of it is spicy.

[2:45] TJ Armand: Exactly. So the self-imposed exile, these are the poems of queer beginnings and then later on, I'll be releasing songs of queer beginnings and the performance of which will be a combination of the standup comedy, a little music and a little performance art and a lot of queer humor and also some serious stuff because I mean we need to go there as well right now.

[3:12] Robert Bannon: For sure. And while we before we get into I want to hear your work and I want to talk about how it all came to be TJRman.com is where you can go and find out more information and expect and there's more information there about the publishing house which is ARPA Press and all about your career and all the things that you do. You're of Turkish descent.

[3:33] TJ Armand: That's right. So it's so interesting because Atlantic Records, many people don't know this, were formed by Turks. So, I mean Turkish Americans and I'm basically a protege of the late Arif Mardin who was their vice president and also a producer of Bee Gees and Bette Midler and so I got a good start. It was an early start but it was of, you know, so a lot of this poetry is also from the 90s so yeah that's when I was coming up and trying to figure out my sexuality. This poetry has and I obviously Arif Mardin is a legend and like he mentioned if you if you like Carly Simon or if you like Anita Baker or if you like Aretha Franklin I mean he's vital in the history of the American songbook truly. And Turkish and I know how Middle Eastern cultures are you keep it within your I'm sure you being Turkish was very helpful in getting the job because actually it was it was not I had to really prove that I was more American so okay I can you know because I mean here we are in at Atlantic Records in the 90s the focus is African American music and Broadway and and so there was there's nothing that says Bulgarian or Turkish those are my two descent so you know that's like you know who are you and do you speak English? I was like don't worry I kind of grew up here I'm good.

[5:05] TJ Armand: So yeah it was actually the opposite when you talk about the music business but life in general especially you know many of us culturally if it's religiously, if it's where our families are from, I'm Irish, Italian, and Catholic. My home my my my sexuality is something that is very accepted in my family. But when you look at church, when you look at the extended family and things like that, there can be controversy about it. At what point did you decide that your sexuality was something that was going to be public? I mean, you now write books about it, you make songs about it. So at some point, what was it that gave you the courage to say, like, I'm going to do this publicly?

[5:42] TJ Armand: It was um, I think it was in two stages. The first was um, you know, I had a miserable experience with my teenage years, which I now joke about in this book, but it was not easy and it's not uncommon, you know. We've all gone through the bullying and everything. And when I came to America in my late teens, that's when I noticed that we form the queer folks, we form our own families. We actually have our own defense shields and tribes. And I realized that if I were to do this, because I was miserable and I really needed to come out. I started volunteering. At that time, our older brothers were dying of AIDS, and I just felt right in the middle of this amazing civil rights struggle. And I just couldn't be, you know, I could live with myself with just lying.

So I took this chance early on, and then as predicted, at that time, the times were different. Shit hit the fan. And I basically lost most of my friends, some family members. It took a long time for some of my family members to come to terms with it, and I was completely left alone and broke. Because I was also it was also affecting the work. And then my first guy that I ever fell in love with committed suicide. So that was just the worst period in my 20s. And so that was then I decided, okay, let's start from zero. And the queer community opened their doors for me, just like we do to everyone who has experiences like that. And it became my new family, and I restarted my life in my mid-20s. And I've been happier and happier since because you know, nothing like that empowerment. And later on, some of those people who disappeared initially sort of came around. And that was also nice to nice to see.

[7:54] Robert Bannon: What was the question?

[7:56] TJ Armand: No, that was it. That was it. There was the moment where you decided to live your life out loud and publicly. You know, you alluded to this with why you started this publishing company about banning books, and there is um over 600 bills just this year, not last year when this started, six year this year, that have started to try to be passed within states and federally. What is when you were when you saw the struggle when you went through those years, and now to see this step back almost in or this fight, this attack against against queer rights. What how do you sum it up? What what do you think we can do to try to fight it?

[8:32] TJ Armand: Fabulous, fabulous question, Robert. I mean, if I didn't have the book, Paul Monette's book, "Becoming a Man," you know, Paul Monette, we lost amazing author to AIDS in the 1990s. I recommend everyone read his nonfiction book, "Becoming a Man, Half a Life Story." It's a gay, queer classic. Imagine not me at that age not being able to read that book. That's what queer boys and girls are facing right now. We are Ocean Vuong's book is banned. I mean, this is a literary genius we're talking about. And so at that point, I was like, okay, bring it on. This is, you know, I thought that I would be more of an advocate, you know, in my midlife, you know, happily go through my midlife crisis, but no, I don't have time.

I don't have time, Robert. No, no midlife crisis here. We have to go back to activism. And it's one of my very passionate things with my friends. I mean, they are, of course, everybody was like, well, you know, you're a producer, you know, you have a day job. What are you what are you doing? And I was like, well, it's you know, it's the arts. We simply can't stand back, especially now. Especially now.

[9:59] TJ Armand: What I love so much about art, like from books to music to theater, is that it really transcends lines and space. So your book can be available in places that there's even more oppressive laws against the queer community, and people will be able to see it and they'll also be able to find their sense of community through your words. So tell me, what's your process for writing? Like when you said it, you've been doing it for a long time. So what are you do you have a notepad? Do you put it into your phone? Like, do you type it on a computer? What do you do? What's the to do to start?

[10:32] TJ Armand: Oh, um, there is I get up very early, and the first you know, few hours of my day, you know, I'm a Nietzsche and Buddhist, so I do chant. I start with a chant at a prayer, and then it's writing, I don't let anything interrupt that. It's at least two hours of no interruption. And once I have that, I feel like already accomplished, and that's before 10 a.m. or 9 a.m. I already feel like I've contributed something that didn't exist yesterday. So once you do that, then everything else is on top of that, and it's a great creative process. Now, when I'm writing, it could be lyrics, it could be poems, it could be prose, I don't know. Whatever rocks my boat at that point, I go with it. But the minute that I'm done with that, it's like therapy for me. I've already given something that didn't exist. I've done my job as a writer and a creative person, and then I can go on being a producer and do other things and take those nasty phone calls.

[11:56] Robert Bannon: Well, when we talk about all the other aspects of your life, would you would you tell us a little bit about the poetry? Maybe we could get a sneak peek.

[12:03] TJ Armand: Well, I mean, we just talked about you know how it was in the 90s, and I have this from the this is more of a serious one, not really, but you know, it's called "Pride 1993." Um so a lot of your listeners weren't even born. So here is how it was like. "Pride 1993, Boston before gay marriage, pre-federal tax breaks, comrades in arms, dancing our tears away in the midst of the forsaken years. A brief delight in the daylight with liquor to quench 1000 and one nights, beats from the float speaker roar as we take a break from the ashen forces of evil and invisibility. We are defense shields, comrades holding hands. Alarm is on, guarding each other from the pious, the curious, the malicious, and most importantly, the suspicious."

[12:59] TJ Armand: When the celebration is over, we walk back to self-imposed comfort zones quietly, like solicitous doves. We dissolve back to silence. Oh that is sorry, I know that's a slap in the face. No, that's so beautifully well written and so true. A lot of art that has depicted, you know, the like fellow travelers, these shows that have shown different times, you know, where it's things that like back in the closet, or you have to have it be in a safe space, and you need to go somewhere where it's very, very real like that. It was like that, Robert. It was like that. And you know, it's important for at least our community to really understand how it was like, and not just from documentaries, but really from books, really understanding how it was. I don't think it could be better expressed other than books. Um yeah. But you know, that was a little heavy. I have a lighter one. Do you want to hear it?

[14:10] Robert Bannon: Yes, please.

[14:11] TJ Armand: Okay, so this is, I can't believe I put this in, but it's in there, Robert, and I'm not ashamed of it. I'm not ashamed of it. This is called, well, you know. He said, he said. You said you wanted children. I said I didn't. You said be careful, it's a deal breaker. I said, what's the deal? You said I was hypnotizing. I said, no, it's just good sex. You said I love you. I said, me too. It's called manners. You said my Indian mother is praying for me to be straight. I said, interesting. Does she know you're a bottom? You said stop being silly. I'm serious, and stop with that toxic masculinity crap. I didn't say anything, but I love bottom. Some of my best friends are bottoms. Is there a politically correct way to say bottom?

You said your mother would never change. I said, you're probably right. You said I like Bollywood. I said, who doesn't? I lied. You said, why are you falling asleep? I said, because we're watching Bollywood. You said, who the hell is Noam Chomsky? I said, I'll teach you after sex. You said, I want a family with you. I said, I'll think about it. You said, be careful. It's a deal breaker. I said, okay, then let's move in together. You said, Whoa, slow down, Tiger. I'm not ready for that. I said, let me get this straight, or gaily forward. You're not ready for moving in, but your biological clock is ticking. The moral of the story, Indian boy had a short fuse. Say goodbye to Bollywood.

[15:50] Robert Bannon: Oh.

[15:52] TJ Armand: Sorry.

[15:53] Robert Bannon: No, good. I love that. Say goodbye to Bollywood. What a great life. What a great idea. You're a musician, you got that reference.

[16:01] TJ Armand: So, yes, I love it. And we love Billy Joel, and we love that you use it.

[16:08] Robert Bannon: TJ, when you tell these stories, I'm assuming they're based on real life experiences you had.

[16:13] TJ Armand: I wish they were not.

[16:23] Robert Bannon: Oh, and here's the funny thing. Billy Joel gave me my diploma at Berkeley. Isn't that funny?

[16:27] TJ Armand: That is hysterical.

[16:30] Robert Bannon: Yeah, but he was a guest that year. He got his doctorate, and yeah, I got my diploma from his hand.

[16:36] TJ Armand: So well, whenever I hear that song now, I'm gonna want to say, say goodbye to Bollywood.

[16:41] Robert Bannon: I ruined it for sorry, Billy. I ruined it.

[16:47] TJ Armand: You tell your stories and you put them one day. If I ever write my life story, TJ, we're gonna put it out on ARPA press. We're gonna do it.

[16:55] TJ Armand: I would love to love that. I just love the idea of a place for queer fiction. You know, while you were talking the first poem that you read, I had this moment yesterday. I'm in Florida, we're doing my big gay Italian wedding. I've done it for seven years at the Hard Rock in Tampa, and it was the eighth anniversary of the Pulse Nightclub shooting, and I thought to myself, we're here in Florida, a state that has really attacked queer rights, putting on this very gay show, and it's the way it should be. Yeah, there's a community out here that's dying for their self to be represented, and there are places that are even more oppressed than here. There are places in this country that it's still not safe to be out publicly, that you still don't have a sense of community, and then that's what your book is going to do. So, how do you feel when you're about to hear or you hear from people who get this? And it really, they see themselves represented in a very special, intimate way that they don't get in other places.

[17:52] TJ Armand: I think, you know, first of all, I mean, yesterday was the anniversary of Pulse. But it's important, for instance. Chan Chan writes about this, Ocean writes about this, Garth Greenwell write about it, but also, you know, we, you know, I think poetry, literature, and humorous poetry, especially gay, I should say queer poetry is very, very, it could be very direct. And you know, our humor is also a defense mechanism. Our humor is also an expression, a coping system. But you know, let me read you police raids gay bar. Have you ever been raided at a gay bar?

[18:40] Robert Bannon: I have not.

[18:43] TJ Armand: But okay, so this was 19, I think it was yeah, late. I mean, it still happens, but this used to happen to us. Police raids gay bar again. Friday night, we were having such a good time, sufficiently tipsy, dancing to eliminate the toxins of our heteronormative lives, in which we were award-winning actors, then the fucking police raided the bar. The lights, the ugly ones, were turned on. We were turned off. They started checking IDs for what? We will never know. The club owner paid them off, they left for now. The lights, the ugly ones, were turned off, and the pretty disco lights were turned back on, but the music never sounded the same. The disco beats would never be able to silence the trauma of captivity.

But we kept on dancing, insufficiently drunk, so we kept on drinking. All our pent-up sexual arousal now fueled with rage, all our defenses now fully alert, dance of defiance, a gaze in the military kind of march in the don't ask, don't tell era. My vodka drink is now more of an anesthetic. Are they still outside? I asked the owner. She lit her cigarette. No, they're gone, she said. And to think today I was gonna quit smoking. We laughed. They asked for more cash this time. You motherfuckers better drink, she said. I hear you, sister. I hung out a little while longer and then kissed my friends goodbye. All of them, one by one. Until next time, we hope.

[20:17] Robert Bannon: Oh you these are this is real. This is your it's a it's like a diary.

[20:22] TJ Armand: Yeah. So when Pulse happened, nothing surprised me, unfortunately, because we were having these kinds of, I mean, you know, that was such a tragedy, but we've been having these for a long time. 600 plus legislations against us. They have legitimized violence against us. They're trying to. So, I mean, marriage equality is one aspect of our equity, but there the fight still goes on, Robert. It's a very important realization that we must all have.

[20:57] Robert Bannon: 100%. It doesn't just stop at marriage equality, it doesn't just stop at, you know, letting a TV series be on Netflix or a famous person to come out being gay. It is the community, it is the schools, it is the clubs, it is the businesses, it is just general safety, TJ. I'm so taken aback always by, you know, I teach fifth grade and I have so many students who have come out to me and don't feel safe at home, don't feel safe in the hallways, don't feel safe within the confines of their life. And it's very hard to give advice to someone who's 12, 13, 14 years old figuring themselves out, who are not accepted. And they want you to say it's all gonna be okay and that everything's gonna be magically better.

[21:43] TJ Armand: Talks about that. You know, he came out early, and with no support around him. So he has a whole other view of how it is when you come out and you don't have the support. Is it the right time? These are important questions still to this day. And Garth Greenwell talks about this on YouTube in his interviews. He's an amazing author. So I would really recommend anyone to, you know, especially those youngsters who are contemplating coming out. That there's so many other resources as well.

[22:19] Robert Bannon: Sorry, you were asking.

[22:20] TJ Armand: No, please.

[22:21] Robert Bannon: So how can we help? What can we do? We can buy your book, we should buy your book and we'll read it and chronicle a life and your journey. But your whole life, your whole company has really been a lot of queer rights and advocacy work.

[22:38] TJ Armand: And divas. So I mean, you know, right now we're getting Mary Bridget Davies ready for as Janis Joplin on in the West End. That's what we're getting ready to do. I'm her producer and her managing producer at that. So yes, divas as well. In the divas and queer folks. That's my concentration.

[23:00] Robert Bannon: That sounds good to me. Are you based in New York?

[23:02] TJ Armand: I'm based in New York, and all the proceeds of this book is going to me.

[23:09] Robert Bannon: Okay.

[23:11] TJ Armand: Sorry.

[23:14] Robert Bannon: As it should. It's your life and your art and your work. So, where can we get the book? How do we find it? Tell us what's the it's very, very easy. It's on Amazon. So you can just order it. I did an audiobook for it. There's a Kindle version as well. So TJArmand.com. I have the link right there.

[23:35] Robert Bannon: Perfect. And the link will be below us when you're listening to us. And you, your voice is so great. I was gonna ask you about an audiobook because you have such an incredible...

[23:43] TJ Armand: Thank you.

[23:48] Robert Bannon: ...that I was hoping that you did it yourself.

[23:50] TJ Armand: Say more things like that.

[23:51] Robert Bannon: Yeah. I was hoping you did it yourself because you read it with such, you know the moments to take a break, you know the beats, you know the inflection, but you have a great...

[23:53] TJ Armand: You know, some of my exactly some of my author friends warned me. He's like, You have to do it yourself, don't hire an actor for it. And I was like, why not? Because they're actors. He goes, let me show you, and one, you know, she'll remain nameless, but let me show you what he did. And then I heard it, and the guy, I mean, I'm sure he's a great actor, but he's reading the book like it is on Broadway.

[24:26] Robert Bannon: And I can't believe you said that.

[24:30] TJ Armand: So I said, you know, that that's not it. So I was like, okay. Especially this is so performative, so I thought it would be fun.

[24:39] Robert Bannon: Well, I'm ready for the music, I'm ready for it to be combined. I'm ready for the live show, I'm ready for this whole TJ Armand experience.

[24:50] TJ Armand: Yes, I can't wait. And we got to go to your website. We got to get the book, and we are gonna be, let's keep going. Let's keep fighting this.

[24:58] Robert Bannon: Absolutely. Absolutely. Make sure if you're listening, if you're an ally or a part of this community, you show some love to somebody, not only in June for Pride, but all the year long. And support art, support artists, people putting out their truth. If it's a book, if it's a community theater, if it's a single that's on Spotify, whatever people are doing to share their story, I think it's so important that we show love and support because artists are what really make the world go round.

[25:21] TJ Armand: Absolutely.

[25:22] Robert Bannon: TJ, I had so much fun with you. You're a pleasure. Thank you for what you're doing.

[25:28] TJ Armand: Thank you, Robert, and thank you for what you're doing because you're doing it too.

[25:31] Robert Bannon: Wonderful. I appreciate you so much.