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[0:11] Robert Bannon: It's The Roundtable with me, Robert Bannon. You know, we wouldn't be here. One of the most watched episodes, and one of the biggest episodes we ever have done. We're about to be here for four years. And a couple years ago, the first episode we ever had as a podcast was with our next guest. You may have known her from her Tony-winning Broadway runs and things like Paradise Square. There's many other shows that she's been a part of, and what a lucky time to be alive that we could see a show with music by Sia, written by James Imes, directed by Whitney White with a cast of people that we love and adore here. Jay. I love Kristaline. I love, you know, this one is for the people, y'all. My Queens, the Culture, Brook Theater. I'm so excited she's here. That's my buddy. She's back. Come on. This is Broadway royalty. You're here.

[1:10] Joaquina Kalukango: Thank you for having me. I am so happy that you're back. You are still listed as the top few episodes we've ever done. And I owe you so much grace and gratitude for spending some time with us back then. And you're back.

[1:23] Robert Bannon: Oh, I'm so happy to be back. And it's such an honor to be here with you.

[1:27] Joaquina Kalukango: No, please. With you. Can I just I want to take you for a I don't know what you like to eat, a slice of pizza, a sandwich. You bring your Tony award. All I ask is for a little selfie. Look, all I need, I've asked everyone on no one has let me flick the Tony. I just want to give a little flick.

[1:44] Joaquina Kalukango: I got you. I got you.

[1:47] Robert Bannon: Thank you. Finally. Yes, we got someone to say yes. Congratulations for the show. I'm I got married. I'm in Detroit for a few weeks, and I haven't gotten a chance to see it. But my husband.

[2:01] Joaquina Kalukango: Thank you. And what moves me about the show without even seeing it? Firstly, I love James because he's brilliant. And Fat Ham was and Sia, I mean, she's Sia. And Whitney White is, I mean, the most in-demand brilliant director around town right now. She's got so many projects. My husband grew up in the church. He was a little gay boy. His parents were pastors. For many years, he had to live between the life he lived on a Saturday night and the life he lived on a Sunday morning. And I know, you know, for him, he will always say, I am black, I'm gay, I'm from Detroit. And I had to be a certain way in certain streets and a certain way somewhere else. And so I'm really moved and excited that this piece is written enough. Tell us how did it come to you?

[2:46] Joaquina Kalukango: Oh my gosh. I got the offer a couple of weeks to come do a workshop for like three days or something of the musical, and it was a no-brainer. It was like you said, Whitney, Jay, like all the people I love, and of course, this story. And then at the time it was a very different story that we workshopped, and so actually working on this process when they sent the offer again, I knew I had to be a part of it. And the main reason, honestly, it was a love letter to my dear friend because like your husband, my dear friend also grew up in the church and had pastor parents, and it was very hard. And so this is my love letter to my friend who I love dearly, and so many people who have had to live this life, this double life. And it's really hard watching the people you love have to go through that. So that was no brainer for me. I was like, let's go. Let's go.

[3:50] Joaquina Kalukango: And now it's up and it's out, and everybody, your newest extension, which goes into the end of October, mytw.org. They're gonna make you keep singing. That's it.

[4:01] Joaquina Kalukango: Well, my child said I need to come home. He has officially said they can't extend no more, mommy. We need to come back.

[4:12] Robert Bannon: I think the tickets are extended until the 24th, but they're saying it must close.

[4:17] Joaquina Kalukango: Yeah, we have to on the 24th. That's it. You got this week and next week. But I just want to let you know, don't be surprised when they dust this off, and you don't know where it's gonna go from here.

[4:26] Robert Bannon: What's gonna happen?

[4:27] Joaquina Kalukango: That's true. You don't know. So for you working with Sia and the music that she wrote, how do you describe the music in this show?

[4:38] Joaquina Kalukango: Oh my god, I don't even know if you can describe it. It's insane. Like Jason Michael Webb and Luke Solomon and Honey Dijon have really like the arrangements of Sia's songs are completely different, I think, than what people know, and it's amazing how well they fit in this story. It's everything from like dance, a little bit gospel, you know what I mean, to like R&B. It's so good, and these voices are seriously insane. Bryce and Battle. Oh my god, Jay. Like you said, Chris, all of these amazing casts are singing for their lives. It's insane, and also dancing for their lives while singing these vocals. It's magical, it's magical.

[5:21] Robert Bannon: Half your cast have been cats over the past few years, really.

[5:24] Joaquina Kalukango: Listen, the Jellicle Ball may have been beside your show, these shows are giving life for the children out here. You better come and flip. They are booked and busy, okay? Booked and busy and excellent. Their rent is paid for 2025, 2026. They're good.

[5:44] Robert Bannon: Well, I'm just like, please teach me eight now, y'all. Teach me eight now. You had quite a busy year. You've done television movies, you've done movies, you've transitioned between Broadway and now you're leading movies and doing a whole bunch of stuff. Do you how do you balance? I mean, you have your own family, so you're balancing your family, you're balancing a TV and film career that keeps blowing up, and you're still doing theater. So how do you balance it all?

[6:12] Joaquina Kalukango: I mean, I have family, quite honestly. I lucked out and have a very supportive family on both sides that allow me to do this. And my son is a big champion of that as well, because he's sacrificing time as well. And also like this is what I love. This is the thing that I've been praying for since I knew that I wanted to do this in high school. So to be able to do this in all different mediums is really exciting for me. And I'm always I'm a theater girl, heart, soul, everything. There is not a way I'm not gonna be on a stage at some year every year. If I can, I would do it. Like, that's how I feel about it. There's nothing that beats it for me. So, luckily, again, it's family, it's a lot of family, a lot of love, a lot of sacrifice, and it's hard.

You know, not everything is perfect, of course. And some days you have to miss out on soccer, you know what I mean? Some days you have to miss out on this field trip or whatever, and it hurts. But then some days you get like Pink coming to see your show and bringing her child in, and you know what I mean. And they're just living their best lives, and it's these moments, you know, there's ups and downs, but it's beautiful. I wouldn't trade it for anything.

[7:29] Robert Bannon: Incredible. I love it so much. I was wondering while I was thinking about, I was reading your bio, and I was taken aback years ago, before I think it was before the even the pandemic, to the New York Theater Workshop, and you back in the day in Slave Play, and I was thinking about what was it like to go back there.

[7:52] Joaquina Kalukango: Oh, so the funny thing was—

[7:52] Robert Bannon: Go ahead, go ahead.

[7:57] Joaquina Kalukango: Yes, because Tiana did the off-Broadway at New York Theater Workshop. So I didn't get this was my first, I've done readings at New York Theater Workshop, but I've never performed in the space before. So this was really exciting to like be in the space that all of this originated in, and it's grungy, it's good, it's small, it's intimate, like in the best way. I mean, it's so raw, and the people, the community around it is so honest and real and beautiful. So this has been a joy, quite honestly.

[8:33] Joaquina Kalukango: Because I literally, when I saw it, I said, you were enslaved. And then I said, that was a New York Theater workshop. And then I said, but I don't, and then, but and then I put it all too. So you got you've gotten to be there where all of this all where these shows begin, and it must be amazing, just like with Saturday Church. When you do a show at New York Theater Workshop, and it's off-Broadway, but you don't know what happens with a show. Some of the greatest shows, like Rands, some of the greatest shows of all time have started in that space. I mean, the history is in the walls, it's on the floors, it's in the air, and it's really exciting to be in that space. You literally can feel the creativity in that space and that's what we felt the excitement of being in that room on the first day knowing all that has happened in that building was just really palpable and beautiful.

[8:58] Robert Bannon: So can you tell us a little bit about what it's like? How's Whitney as a director?

[8:58] Joaquina Kalukango: She's an incredible actor. Oh my god, what can't this woman do? What can she do? She's amazing, she's brilliant, she's funny, she has such a good heart. She's smart as a whip, her vision is very strong. And I think and she's also a mother and doing all of these things and a wife and doing all of these things as well balancing many acts. And so I have so much admiration for her and how she's able to show up fully present in a room every day with a clear vision and also allowing all of us the grace and space to create. She trusts her artists which is really beautiful and she finds what things out of you that you never thought you could see or maybe you're like no I couldn't possibly do that and then you're like oh shit this makes sense this is brilliant when you finally have it like yeah this has been such a beautiful experience she can't she can't lose me we tied at the hip she better know it.

[8:58] Joaquina Kalukango: I think we all want more of you two working together. James burst on the scene with Fat Ham, and to get to see him write Fat Ham and then what he's been able to add to the canon of American theater, now as a professor, is incredible. His words—okay, I literally was like, okay, that's profound. I know why this show must mean something to him, but it must mean something to all of us. It's not just a queer show; this is not just a religious show. If you're anybody going in here, his words have universal meanings. You'll find humanity in these characters no matter what. It's love, reconciliation, forgiveness, identity, acceptance, community. For me personally, I think why I was so drawn to Rose is that she is a complicated, complex character, but I always felt that at the end of the day, she loved her nephew.

I think we all have to start from a place of love if we're going to do true healing and understanding. Reconciliation is not easy; even though this is a musical, it's hard. It takes work, it takes years, it takes months, and we cannot give up on our family and our people. I think what this community, our world needs more of is understanding that we can love each other with differing opinions and figure out a way to live together and love one another. That was the pull for me—like, we gotta heal. There's too much happening in this world, and we keep getting ripped apart. The more we can come together, I think, is so important for how we progress and move forward.

[12:16] Joaquina Kalukango: We're all humans and we deserve to live and to be here and to walk this earth and so to be able to tell this story with the community and cast and artists that I get to do, absolutely ten toes down, stand for all of them. Like this is what we need. Get a ticket. Well, if you can, for NYTW.org if you can get a ticket for you. I know some of the people in the cast based on sexuality or gender or race may have lived a lot of phobias in their life. I mean, lived a lot of phobias in their life. It must be very healing. The actor who plays Ulysses, it must be so interesting to see the journey that they've taken on their road to being up and putting this on. What's it been like to see the journey from that first rehearsal to seeing you all now as a company up there?

I mean, it's amazing. This is some people's first off-Broadway experience. And so literally watching it through their eyes is, I'm trying to figure out the words to say, it's almost like watching it through a child's eyes, the love, the excitement, the discovery. The joy, first of all, art, like literally, New York Theatre Workshop is full of songbirds. All you hear from as soon as you walk through the doors are people ripping and singing, everything from Ariana Grande to Wicked to Whitney Houston to gossip songs, and these kids never stop. I'm like vote, like literally cords of steel. And I'm like, yes, that's what young new energy does, the excitement of being in the space and putting in work.

And to answer your question, Bryson is just like one of the purest souls that I've ever encountered with like the purest voice. It's effortless. And so to see the growth of strength and power to stand in that, to do what he does eight times a week is ridiculous. I mean, the full range of the voice is insane and maddening. Mind you doing this soaking wet for like 20 minutes of the show in full just water and still being able to do this. It's quite extraordinary. And it's such a privilege to watch some the beginning of someone's career who you know is gonna have such a beautiful journey. So it's a privilege. Me and Jay were talking about that the other day of just witnessing the beginning of someone who's gonna have an exciting career is and being able to be a part of that is really beautiful.

Oh, it just it is just the start. It is just, you know what I mean? Like, what? That's because you and Jay were honey. That's how that's right. That's because you and Jay were probably there with you talking about remember, girl.

[15:16] Joaquina Kalukango: Remember when we started in this business for you all? I thought about back when Fat Ham came when James put Fat Ham came out, and they know more and Jordan Cooper were on Broadway very similar times, and now you got Jordan down at the public doing his show. You have this show being done here, and there it seems so important to me. People of color, queer culture, gender issues in this world that we live in. People are there's an attack on queer people, there's an attack on race, there's an attack on women in this country, and art is going to be the first defense that we're gonna have to say what we need to say in a safe, sacred place. Is it important to you? The work you've chosen all has something very strong to say. You're not doing, you know, you're not, you don't seem to be ready to be in, I don't know, Shrek the Musical. When they when you get booked, you're coming out swinging with something to say.

[16:13] Joaquina Kalukango: Listen, I don't know any other way to do it. You know what I mean? This is my advocacy. I take my art seriously, and I think that's our job as artists is to be a reflection of the world, to challenge it, to talk about the issues. And so absolutely, I mean, at some point, maybe, you know, my friend told me, like, I mean, Ambery Mom was like, Don't you need to be in a rom com or something? You're gonna be dumb a minute. I was like, you know, you might be right from my spirit. I might need to do something a little light at some point. But honestly, absolutely, that's our job as artists. And I think it's so affirming and exciting the fact that we don't back down in the theater community, the fact that these stories are happening when we see it happening in other mediums, certain stories not getting told because of the climate. And so I'm like, how powerful, how beautiful, how exciting, how bold and fearless we are, you know, as a community to be able to tell these stories. It's yeah, I wouldn't have it any other way.

[17:15] Robert Bannon: But it's on your emotion and your time away from your family and on your back, literally on your physical, the physicality that you carry and the heavy hard work that you do. It is not easy. And we thank you so much because we know it takes a toll on the artists that are up there, and we owe you the incredible, incredible gratitude for you sharing your art and your talent with us every single day. We should never take it for granted because it's a real gift that we all get to get every night.

[17:43] Joaquina Kalukango: Oh gosh, Robert, you made me cry. Lord have mercy. No, it's until Amber, she wrote a short. She had a movie. She could have put you in it. What happened? You know I am gonna tell her. I'm gonna see her. I think it was called Steve, and it was out a few years ago. She didn't call. That's what I was saying.

[18:02] Robert Bannon: So you're gonna finish this. I hope you then take a big nice nap and that she'll be back out singing and screlting and belting to Jesus Center Beyond. Do you are you are you do you look forward to the next project? Do you stay grounded in what you're doing, or are you always on the lookout, ready for it for the next one?

[18:22] Joaquina Kalukango: I mean, right now, of course, my focus is closing this out strong. But I am excited about what comes next. A lot of it is up in the air, a lot of great conversations. So I'm really excited to see what happens, and hopefully I get to be back up here soon.

[18:39] Robert Bannon: Okay. Oh, you will. Are you where are you going? We need you. When you're in rehearsal and Sia shows up, does she wear the hair in front of her face?

[18:48] Joaquina Kalukango: You know, honestly, she hasn't shown up yet. She's supposed to come to our show. So I'm very excited to see what happens, and you're gonna be the first person I let know. I'm gonna send you a video.

[18:59] Robert Bannon: I need a video.

[19:00] Joaquina Kalukango: Okay, deal. Watch out. She might have been there and no one knows because we don't know what she look like.

[19:05] Joaquina Kalukango: Seriously, like she sent us flowers on opening night and everything, and I was like, what? Congratulations, everyone. Get those last tickets, NYTW.org. We'll be following you. Instagram, all the links were gonna be below. You know, we love, I love you so much. I so adore you. I appreciate you and spending time with you. You're such a light in this world, and we're so just lucky to be living in a time when you're up here doing it.

[19:29] Joaquina Kalukango: Oh my god, I love you so much. Thank you. Thank you.