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[0:00] Robert Bannon: Ask. Are you ready? It's The Roundtable with me, Robert Bannon.

[0:08] Robert Bannon: Well, welcome to The Roundtable, everybody. My name is Robert Bannon, and you're listening to us on Broadway World, the Broadway Podcast Network, iHeart, Spotify, wherever artists talking about art. And I'm so excited because this morning, I sat on my couch with a cup of coffee, and I watched We Are Pat. And I am so excited because I was born in 1983 in New Jersey, and I begged my parents to stay up till 11:30 at night every single Saturday. So it's an honor to be here with the one and only Julia Sweeney. And Rowan is a star. Rowan, you've won all the awards. Your films have been everywhere from Sundance to Tribeca. If you've seen New Deep South, if you've seen, you know, working on Pose and Shadowing to make good stuff. And this is incredible. Congratulations. Thank you so much.

[0:56] Robert Bannon: So I know the story, Rowan, because I've seen the movie, but not everyone else has. What made you pick up the nostalgia of Pat and feel like there was a story here, a 90-minute feature doc that was meant to be told?

[1:11] Rowan Haber: I just, you know, I think certain things when you're young, like, imprint on you and won't leave you. And Pat was that for me. And so I think, you know, like, I think it just, it came back to me at a moment when I was, like, looking at my gender and having all these funny Pat-like experiences. So I think Pat reconnected with me at a really funny time. Well, at a very Pat-like time in my life. So that's, I just had to, I had to explore, had to find out more. And that's when I reached out to Julia.

[1:45] Robert Bannon: Well, Julia, in the film, it looks like he sends you an email, like a blunt, like an email, just, hey, Julia, girl, what's going on? Let's talk about Pat. What was your response when, and then it took a year later for you to sit down. What did you think when you got the message in email that they wanted to make a doc about it?

[2:00] Julia Sweeney: I was actually fine. I keep saying this. It's really because I don't read my emails. It's not because I was thinking about it for a year. It's because I just didn't see it.

[2:16] Robert Bannon: Is that what you were saying? Was it a fast yes?

[2:19] Julia Sweeney: Oh yeah, it was a fast yes. I think I, as soon as I saw it, I said, yes, I didn't stop and think, oh, should I do this? Which is the good thing about me and the bad thing about me.

[2:29] Robert Bannon: I think it's wonderful and charming. Everybody, you know, Julia, Spokane, Washington zone, the ground links to SNL, to Pulp Fiction, to, I don't know, Desperate Housewives work on and Fraser and films and television. But you talk about how this has become an iconic character for you, Julia. What was it like to revisit it? You take the costume out, you put it on and you talk about the journey that it was really to this character, the good, bad, and the ugly of what it was like to be a part of this phenomenon.

[2:59] Julia Sweeney: Well, it was really, Ro, I have so much to thank you for. Because forget about even the finished documentary or being on something or us doing these interviews. It just forced me to think about something that it's funny because with work in progress, I had been somewhat forced to think about it. But I hadn't really it was really that day that's in the documentary where I meet with all the trans and intersex and non-binary writers and we're all and I'm hearing all their responses. That was a hugely momentous moment for me, like a big growing moment, like I realized I'd done something that had touched a nerve and sometimes not a good nerve. And but mostly a good nerve. And it was also worth exploring.

And of course, the topic of gender is endlessly interesting to me. And I think politically interesting and sociologically interesting and in every way interesting. So it kind of brought all that up again. And it was just really a gift of just what just what a gift that Ro made this documentary.

[4:09] Robert Bannon: Julia shows receipts that she really means it because her house is filled with fun, gender bending artwork. She really this is a fascinating competition. I'm in my husband's office right now. Does he have gender? But oh, yeah, I guess these poker players, you don't know exactly their gender. You don't know.

[4:26] Robert Bannon: See the art. So I don't know what's going on. What's going on with this person? Okay. For you, the world is on fire. It is a very crazy, scary time, especially for people within the LGBTQIA plus community and the work that you're doing as my little queer boy self with my husband and I are so grateful for the work and representation that you do. Why is this story important to tell now? And what is the goal when people finish it that you hope they take away?

[4:58] Julia Sweeney: Yeah, no, it is, you know, to your point, it's a really horrific time for trans people and for so many people, for immigrants, for like any anybody who's not a, you know, extremely wealthy cis white man. I think it's a hard time. So, you know, this film, I think I don't I feel like more than anything and more than being about how it's a little bit about the process of having really respectful conversations when you don't agree with someone. And, you know, Julie and I actually have a way more in common than I even thought we did. You know, like I think when originally approaching her, I didn't have like a ton of preconceptions about how it was going to go down, but I knew that we wouldn't entirely agree on things and we have different identities and different lived experiences.

And but the fact that she was able to sit down with this, you know, room full of trans writers and that like a really respectful and honest conversation was had and no one shut anyone down and no one was overly defensive, I feel like is a really good kind of roadmap of how we can like come together across difference. And it's something that like, not to be too overblown, but on a very micro level, it's a way of, I think that we could maybe as a country have conversations, you know, like if we actually listen to each other, if we actually were able to talk about what we value, what our values are, what's really important to us, if we were able to respect other people's right to exist, you know, their basic humanity, and not have to defend our own humanity, just as people who exist, like I think, I think actually we could get pretty far, you know, I mean, obviously, that only extends so far, right?

Like if someone's trying to have a conversation about with you about why you deserve to exist or not, that's like not really a fair conversation, right? But like, beyond that, like, I think that, you know, there's a lot of conversations that we actually could have, even if we don't agree. So I think for me, that's the takeaway that I really, especially in this political moment, want people to walk away with.

[7:08] Robert Bannon: It's beautiful in that way. How about you, Julia? What do you hope people walk away with after they watch this documentary?

[7:14] Julia Sweeney: Well, I guess I was just thinking, after Ro was saying that, like, people want certainty in this world. And yet the world is complex. And complexity requires a lot more brain space than certainty, defining things. And that's at the heart of Pat. Like the heart of Pat is, like, in general, 90 some percentage of us are female or male and identify that way, and it's all fine, but some percentage of us don't. And it raises a lot of complex questions that need to be addressed. And right now, with our current political situation, people want every time I watch a political thing now, I think they want an easy answer. They want an easy answer. And I would say, the question of gender is literally biologically, scientifically, and socially a complex answer.

But people who don't have to, who personally aren't in that category, or they just don't want to think about it, just don't want it to be complex. And it is complex. And they're, you know, right now, we're politically in a moment where they're trying to make it simple. But the truth is, it's complex. The truth is going to win out. So eventually, people will realize that this question that I kind of happened onto by accident, pretty much mostly, but I'm also interested in personally, about gender and how we should be thinking of ourselves as gender in a society is complex, and we need to embrace it as complex.

[8:50] Julia Sweeney: I mean, it is complex. And so I hope that the documentary kind of shows how that's true. It's definitely going to be a conversation. It's going to give you nostalgia, it's going to make you laugh. There are moments that are very funny, it takes you back to a time and place. And then it takes you to a very serious, heartfelt conversation that we could all have with people that we love. For sure. You know, Ro is a prolific director and making documentaries and work and is incredible. And Julia, after this SNL, since you went on to be quite the monologue writer, and you write incredibly personal, beautiful pieces that people need to see. And if you're going to audition, look at one of her monologues, then you'll have something juicy to go in there to the room with.

[9:30] Robert Bannon: So for both of you, when people go home tonight, it's Friday night, the documentary is out on Peacock, and they're going to order a pizza and sit down. Do you, why, Ro, why? Maybe they're not a part of the community. Maybe they're not, maybe they don't know any trans or non-binary or intersex people. They don't know anybody. Why do we have a responsibility to listen to everybody's story?

[9:57] Rowan Haber: Well, I don't think it's a responsibility. And I think that we shouldn't approach it that way, because here's the thing. I think a lot of queer content, I think people who aren't queer are kind of like afraid to watch because they're like, am I going to get my finger wagged or a finger wagged at me? Is it going to be didactic? Is it going to be like, you know, eating your oatmeal or whatever? And I'm like, no, this is funny. You should just watch this because it's funny, period. Like, do you like laughing? Okay, watch the film. If you don't like laughing, don't watch the film. You know what I mean? I think like, it's kind of like that. And not only will you be laughing, but you're also going to be learning something. So you don't, it's the kind of thing where afterwards you feel like virtuous and you've had a great time. So I'm like, for me, that's a win. And it's under 90 minutes. So yes, my ADD didn't even kick in one time. I got through it in one sitting, Julia.

[10:47] Julia Sweeney: Oh, my gosh.

[10:48] Rowan Haber: That's a win. This is a lot of people that to me, it's the people I grew up with who are mostly can very conventional people who don't have they don't seem to even have any children that are gay or non-binary. How can that be? Okay. I want them to see it, because they'll see that it was a complex thing. And it's an interesting topic and a topic they should think about and make them kind of make themselves think about things that they might not have thought about.

[11:18] Robert Bannon: Thank you both so much. It's such an honor to talk to you both. I'm a big fan of everything you've all done. And I can't wait to talk to you again. Thank you for being here.

[11:25] Julia Sweeney: Thanks, Robert.

[11:26] Rowan Haber: Peacock tonight, everybody. Go ahead. Get it. Let's go. Yes.