This transcript was automatically generated and might contain errors.

[0:04] Robert Bannon: Are you ready? It's the round table with me, Robert Bannon. Welcome to the round table, everybody. My name is Robert Bannon and you're listening to Sun Broly World over here on the Raleigh Podcast Network iHeartSpotify. It is going to be June so soon. It's going to be Pride. You know it's my favorite time of the year. I'm so excited that this show gets to speak to incredible queer LGBTQIA plus artists. And if you're going on vacation this summer, if you're gonna be on a plane, if you need to find somewhere to sit and you need somewhere to be, and you need something to read, do we have the project and the book for you? If you're watching traitors or you're watching reality shows, or you want some gossip about love and divorce and life and gay people, level Scott. We got the book. He got he's got the book. He's got the book.

[0:54] Lovell Holder: Oh my gosh, Robert, you're hysterical. I want to put that as like the full back cover. That was fantastic.

[1:01] Robert Bannon: This is the, you know, people. I was just talking to someone who said, I can't wait for the summer. I'm gonna sit on my back porch and I need a good book. We are all looking for something good and juicy to read as we have a cocktail and enjoy the night, evening, uh, over the summer. When did you decide I'm gonna write a book?

[1:20] Lovell Holder: Oh my gosh. So, uh, so I guess I began writing The Book of Luke actually in 2019. So it was a very, very long process. It took me about a year and a half to get through the first draft. COVID definitely uh threw some uh some spanners in the works, as they say on Australian Survivor. Um, but uh but yeah, and then about another two years of editing before we sold it, and then I learned that uh unlike independent film, which is where I primarily come from, publishing has in many ways an even longer runway toward uh a book hitting hitting shelves. Uh but it it's been an incredibly fulfilling uh kind of six-year process and and also a confirmation that everything happens exactly in the way that it's meant to. I'm so grateful that the book came out kind of just magically timed with Survivor season 50, like in ways that like we could not have intended, but just happy little accidents.

[2:18] Lovell Holder: Sometimes you just have to trust the process of both creatively, business-wise, life-wise, everything. The book, the book, as you said, came out in December. And you you got into a whole bunch of things like um, I don't know, I was it today, USA Today Bestseller. It was picked uh as a novel of 2025 by Marie Claire. It was an audible pick of the of the year, a people best book of December. Like you got a lot of acclaim for this book.

[2:44] Lovell Holder: It was, it was, it was the most pleasant surprise and just completely very unexpected for me, and also just a testament to uh how wonderful my publisher is, the Grand Central Publishing at Heshat, the way that they stood behind the book and really championed it. Um I also think too, just is emblematic of I think the fact that reality TV will always be kind of a very strong um and polarizing topic uh that people will latch on to, but also kind of inevitably have an opinion on one way or another. And one of the things that's been exciting since the book has come out is to kind of hear from the readers who actually don't like reality TV and who will be like, oh, this won me over. Like, I have so many friends who now have watched every season of The Traders, both the American one and the international editions.

Um, like hearing from Brett's like, no, I went and found Traitors Ireland. And I was like, oh, you mean Traders UK? No, no, I mean Traitors Ireland. And I'm like, okay, then I think I guess the book, like as kind of a almost an ambassadorial project, has unintentionally done done great things for for some of these franchises as well, which is great. If I can in any way pay forward in the ways that they have inspired me, then terrific. Very happy, very happy to help be indoctrinating people into the conversation.

[4:10] Robert Bannon: I love that. You know, my husband, I live with a man who loves. Like when traitors came out, I wasn't allowed to talk. I wasn't allowed to interrupt him. He would go in the bedroom and shut the door. He loves a reality show. And then I never got into reality competition shows as much as he did. But when I lived with him, you watch one episode of these shows, and then you're hooked and you're vested in these people.

[4:34] Lovell Holder: Yeah, yeah. Well, and I mean, I also think something too that's so fascinating about reality competition today, as opposed to like when the genre was first forming in the late 90s and early 2000s. And this is very much true of The Book of Luke as well, is that these stories, even more than money or personalities at this point, I think in a lot of ways are about time and how we see these people change now at this point over decades. Like, I mean, I think that's part of the reason why like Survivor 50, for example, is so compelling. Um, Sari Fields, who I think is just more than ever, is now America's sweetheart in her mid 50s, because she came on Survivor 20 years ago. We've watched her journey through all these different iterations of the show to also winning Traders, doing Big Brother, and seeing her life through that lens and checking in with her in that way, you see you see something compelling in a way that can't be faked.

[5:38] Lovell Holder: I think kind of in the same way with The Comeback, which just finished up its final season on HBO, what started in 2003 is a show about and satire about kind of the making of television and the travesties of the entertainment industry, is now about time. You check in a way that they didn't plan. You check in on those characters almost every 11 years, and you have actors who pass, like in real life, and then both the show and the characters have to deal with that narratively. And I think I mean it truly is the one thing you can't fake is time because that's really where the reality lies, like no pun intended. And I think that will always be so innately compelling to me. And I think kind of in the way that maybe for the generation above ours, or even before that, soap operas, especially in the mid-20th century, were kind of that platform where you could stick with a character over the course of 15, 20 years. You were wondering what Susan Lucci's Erica Kane was doing. Now we're doing that as well, just with Erica Jane on Real Housewives of Beverly Hills instead of Erica Kane on daytime television.

[6:50] Robert Bannon: Lovell, I want to be your friend and hang out with you and talk pop culture and gossip and watch bad TV and eat popcorn. You are a pop culture Nista. Like that's what I love behind. And if you're somebody who loves reality shows like these shows that we're talking about, or if you love inside baseball television, if you're watching Hacks, or if you're watching uh you talked about The Comeback, if you're watching The Studio, like if you're into showbiz and you like to see what it's like behind the scenes, then this is the perfect novel for you because this story is a story about Luke, who is married. Um now, bear with me here. Please, please. He was an athlete, right?

[7:27] Lovell Holder: Yes.

[7:32] Robert Bannon: And then he ends and goes on a reality television show called Endeavor. And then we find we fast forward and he has a different life. He's married to an out senator, and he's like a stay-at-home dad, and his life kind of falls apart and he has the chance to do it again, maybe.

[7:50] Lovell Holder: I think that's the perfect summation of it. Yeah, he um he I think as a lot of people who come into reality television do, especially I think in those early days, no one knew that it would ever turn into a career or a cottage industry in the way that it is now. And so he thinks he's going on basically for a summer to distract himself after a car accident derails his professional football dreams, and it kind of gets his hook. The world gets its hooks into him. Um, in a way that I think it's funny. I'm thinking about this now because I haven't really thought about this in a while or even talked about it in any other interviews. But I think that first year after you graduate college, um, I think is one of the most raw moments in anyone's life, because for the first time, you're kind of out in the big ocean, you're not in a confined peer group.

Structure has been taken away, even speaking just for myself, because I went straight from college into my MFA program, but within that MFA program, I went from having always been like amongst the older people in my class, just because of where my birthday fell, to suddenly I was in a group of 18 people, and we were really scattered across a true 10-year period. My oldest classmate was more than 10 years older than me, married, like not long after we'd soon have a kid, like things like that. And it was such kind of a spin cycle moment because you suddenly are making choices that count, and like there are fewer guardrails. And I think Luke entering reality television at such kind of a like almost primal developmental stage makes all these imprints on who he then becomes as an adult in ways that he probably doesn't even realize.

And that maybe even I, as the author, am just realizing, like oh wow, it might have been subconscious. But I'm glad I said it in that particular moment of his life. Because uh yeah, it it's um his actions at 23 very much go on to affect what he does at 25, 34, etc. and the ripples that that affect all the characters who surround him at various chapters of his life.

[10:14] Robert Bannon: Don't I know that? That's about as real as real life as the book is available, it is on Amazon. Do not wait, you can get come on, get a hardcover book, get a book and hold it this summer, put it in your book bag, fly across the country, go to an island on vacation with your people and read this book while you're sitting there having a drink and enjoy the juicy, scandalous soap opera of it. I know people probably ask you this often. It's based on your imagination. Were you inspired? Was it, did you create this character based on someone you saw?

[10:43] Lovell Holder: You don't have to tell me who level you can tell you. I'll DM you. No, I wish I had a direct analog I could I could point to, but in all honesty, so many of the characters were actually created more because of people who I felt I hadn't seen on reality television.

[11:02] Lovell Holder: I feel like, especially when you look at the early days, and I think reality TV has gotten so much better, especially in kind of post-COVID, post-George Floyd, about getting a variety of demographics in shows. But very often there have been historically very few people from underrepresented backgrounds, whether that's a queer character, a non-white character, even in some cases, women. And because of that, especially in those early days, the decks were kind of always stacked against them, even subconsciously. So to get a deep run into a show was very hard. I mean, even looking at Survivor, there are so many seasons where because there's one black person on the tribe, there's one Asian person on the tribe, they are the first person to go.

And it's probably not even a willful decision on the other people's part, but because some part of them is like they just might not connect in the same way in that compact period of time that inevitably minority characters had trouble on these shows. Consequently, I really wanted to tell a story where the primary characters were pretty much all from those underrepresented backgrounds, and it was maybe even taking certain arcs and story points that might feel familiar that we've seen on reality television, and then grafting them on the type of character that we don't get to see having that experience. Someone like in my book, the character of Erica, a trans Indian woman getting to have, spoiler, a very deep run into this show because she is so athletically gifted, but also so socially savvy.

That the most winning character of this show, Endeavor within the book is Imogen, who is a black military veteran. Bringing in those types of perspectives and characters, or that but like by the end, that with one exception, every other say every single man there is all a queer man. I think that was what I really wanted to lean into, so that things do feel familiar, but you're seeing it through the lens of characters that you've never really seen in those stories.

[13:23] Robert Bannon: I love that. And listen, all my queer people out here, this book is for you, but it's not for only you. If you love to read something juicy and fun, no matter what you've got, this is a book for you. It is everybody get a copy of the book. Is Survivor your show? You bring up Survivor. Is that your show, Lovell?

[13:39] Lovell Holder: Survivor is certainly very top of mind right now, just with Survivor 50 airing and just being a longtime fan of Suri, wanting so badly for her to get that conversion. I will say though, if you put the gun to my head, if I had to pick one reality show that has probably most informed me, I probably would gravitate slightly more toward The Challenge and kind of okay the antecedents there of The Real World and Road Rules that then made up that show just because that predates even Survivor. As many people of our generation probably reflect, like that was our first reality show. I think back to like watching The Real World: New Orleans in middle school. I mean, I'm pretty sure that like the first season of The Challenge that I ever watched, which was a battle of the seasons between Real World and Road Rules, all competing in Mexico, where there's a big hurricane that was completely unplanned for, and they just keep cameras rolling as they're just hanging out, waiting for the hurricane to pass.

I think The Challenge probably is in my DNA even a little bit more than Survivor, because I think we met those characters primarily less through competition and more who they were, how they were existing in the world, how they were growing and changing as people. And because they all kind of, especially at the time and eventually became this my same age, but like the first couple seasons were all like four years older, five years older, felt very much like older sibling type characters where you were like, oh, that's what a foam party is. Oh, that's what this is. And so I think especially kind of coming up in that WB moment where you had Buffy on, you had Felicity on. I think that's what's kind of in my DNA, but it's been really gratifying and exciting to see folks now from Survivor coming on to The Challenge.

For example, like I was so thrilled when like two of my favorite winners are Chris Underwood and Michelle Fitzgerald, seeing them now be folded into The Challenge world in a different way, and kind of what different parts of the personalities that brings out in them and things like that. Like D Valladaris, who is regarded as like one of the better new Survivor players, seeing her enter The Challenge, it's like, oh, she's phenomenal on Survivor. But I actually think The Challenge is the show where she most thrives. And you actually see more of her personality because there is that kind of for lack of a better word, like lifestyle component and non-game component within that show that just allows you, I think, to see sometimes a slightly more nuanced portrait of the person, whereas Survivor at this point feels so rigorously about the gameplay in a way that I find very compelling.

But I think part of the reason why season 50 is so compelling right now is we already know those folks, and so we're bringing that emotional investment and then are willing to kind of indulge the gameplay a little bit more.

[16:50] Robert Bannon: I think he's an expert at everybody. Don't mess with him. I don't know about and he's my age, I'm older than you, I believe.

[16:57] Lovell Holder: I'm three years older than you.

[16:59] Robert Bannon: Well, you look younger, so whatever you're doing is great.

[17:01] Lovell Holder: Yeah, I do nothing. I do nothing. I do absolutely. I put someone asked me the other day, what do you do to moisturize? I said, oh, nothing.

[17:09] Lovell Holder: So I'm born in '83. So I think you are, you're of the same age-ish type.

[17:15] Robert Bannon: Your personal story, do you still have cable? Do you have a DVR or do you stream only?

[17:20] Lovell Holder: Okay, I don't think I can. I'm gonna turn my screen right now and you would see my DVR and my cable setup. I wanted to say I have not been able to bring myself to cut the cord, specifically because sometimes, like even when Paramount Plus puts things up the next day, sometimes I don't want to wait and I have a dinner. Like next week, the Survivor 50 finale. I will be at Florence and the Machine. Florence and the Machine is playing in LA. I love Survivor. I'm not passing up my floor standing room tickets at Florence and the Machine. No, I will watch Survivor when I get home, and then it will be waiting for me. And I'll fast forward through the commercials.

[17:59] Robert Bannon: That's a big day. You got a bit, that's a big day. I'm looking forward to it for you. That's also my dad's birthday. It's also my dad's 86th birthday. So it is a bit May 20th, big day.

[18:07] Lovell Holder: May 20th.

[18:08] Robert Bannon: So when we're talking about you, your story, you are someone that is from the Carolinas, right? You left, you came to Jersey, my home state. You went to Princeton.

[18:19] Lovell Holder: Yes.

[18:21] Robert Bannon: He's fancy. He went to Princeton, everyone. And then he went to Brown, which is even fancy, like that's fancy, but not a that's a two for Ivy Leaguer.

[18:23] Lovell Holder: Two for.

[18:30] Lovell Holder: Guilty. I don't know what else I can say, guilty, yes.

[18:34] Robert Bannon: You know, it's funny. A theme of this show has been people talking about being in I and I'm always so impressed. I went to Yale, I went to Brown, I went to Harvard, I went, and then people that go are very much like it's not everything. It didn't make my career. It is, it was great. I am proud of it, but there is more to it than just getting accepted and graduating and going to school there. There's a lot of work that obviously that you have to do. Do you feel the same way? It's not just a magic pass.

[18:56] Lovell Holder: No, certainly not. I mean, it is funny. I think I'm so incredibly grateful for my education at both of those institutions. In an unusual way, I actually feel like my high school, because I went to the same school from when I was four until I graduated in North Carolina. I actually think that environment was the most rigorous academic environment in which I ever been in. I mean, it was just it prepared me so well. I mean, even when I think back to my English teachers, I think they informed who I would eventually become as a writer, what I was exposed to. I don't know any other, I can't think of any other high school, especially like in the South at that time. Like when it was a even Charlotte is a very liberal city now, was a much more conservative city then, was teaching Angels in America in the freshman English class, like less than 10 years after the play had come out, like before the HBO miniseries was even made, like that the English department was that ahead of the curve.

So I give so much credit to them. But I think what that allowed for me when I got to Princeton to Brown, that it really was all about the relationships I was making and the friends I was meeting and the collaborators I was encountering. Because I will freely admit, I've produced eight feature films now, two of which I also directed. I've worked with someone from both Princeton and Brown, someone who I trusted who I thought was a phenomenal collaborator or they really wanted to work with me. I've worked with someone on every single project, every single project, even here with the book. My agent, my book agent, I was her RA in college. Like, and then just she's now blossomed into this incredible, extraordinary, like inspiring book agent.

And I feel I just lucked out that like I was able to reach out to her many years ago and not even with an idea toward representation, but just like, hey, I have something. Could you tell me if you think it's bad? Should I be embarrassed to show up to people? And she came back and was like, I actually really connected with it. I asked a colleague to read it as well just to make sure I wasn't connecting to it because I care about you. They not knowing you liked it. So therefore, let's talk about what might be possible here. And I think those relationships, because if you also think about, and I think this is true of almost any college environment, it's very rare that you're going to be in a place where everyone has kind of been vetted in a strange way. Like, like more often than not, they're a peer who is well adjusted, has a common interest, and are also arriving into that environment, looking to organically meet people as well.

[22:07] Lovell Holder: And I think it's why I'm such an advocate and proponent for get as much education as you can. Like be in an environment where you get a chance not only to meet people and connect with people, but to make things, to test out collaborations, to figure out who you like to work with. I mean, one of my best friends on this planet, Pete Plasic, we met doing a show at Princeton. Pete was on the football team. It was his first play. And within about two weeks, we had figured out, like, oh, like in like another life, we were twins or something. Like, it was just very clear. Like, we blacked out, made a you walk, I walk deal. And I've now directed Pete in a feature. Pete has worked nonstop. I mean, he was a series regular on You for Netflix.

He's done those Michael Bay Ninja Turtle movies. He was one of the turtles in both of those, but it's a chance also to just have we can go back to kind of if it were a Monopoly board, that square one of we have the same vocabulary, we know a shorthand that like we can get somewhere quicker than even someone who could be incredibly talented, but like we just don't have those common entry points of like, well, I know what you were doing in 2007.

[23:29] Robert Bannon: Yeah, you know.

[23:30] Lovell Holder: And I mean, even like within the book, like I know what we said we I didn't really model this after any reality stars, which is true, but I did tailor certain characters to specific actors in my head, because that's just how I write. And so, like, for example, the character of PB, even though PB and Pete have nothing in common in their personal biographies, I was like, well, what's a role that Pete would be great for if I was dropping him in this environment? Oh, I'll kind of tailor this character. Like if we ever did make it into anything, that Kate character is kind of like Pete just needs to walk in. Like the reason PB has such pronounced eyebrows is like Pete has very pronounced eyebrows, so at least I'm setting it up for like, well, you can't say he's not the type for the character.

And like I would just, when I was writing scenes, I would imagine if Pete were improving this, well, this is how Pete would play this character. And I think that's also what allowed for different voices to come through in the book in a different way. And I'm rambling at this point now from the original question, but all of which is to say my primary gratitude for those experiences is the communities that they built, especially.

[24:37] Robert Bannon: That you didn't ramble. That was perfect. You know what Amazon or wherever you get your books, get your book, it's available for Kindle. It's available wherever we're talking about The Book of Luke. I which you need to you need to get a copy. What I'm moved by, um, and we didn't even talk about your films. And you you are you are a filmmaker, you know, you you have written your films and and things that have gone have over a hundred festivals if it's from things like Outfest and all these incredible big if you know Lavender Men, I think Lavender Men was talking about Abraham I may it predates Oh Mary, it's very of the queer baiting Abraham Lincoln.

[25:17] Lovell Holder: Technically, yeah, it did technically. Roger Q. Mason, our brilliant playwright behind that original play, did the I saw my first draft of Lavender Men in 2018. So yeah, definitely definitely a couple years before, but it's indicative of kind of a synchronicity around fascination with Abraham Lincoln. If you like the what was Abraham Lincoln doing behind the scenes, or who was Abraham Lincoln doing behind the scenes. It wasn't Mary Todd Lincoln, but that's but that's I think I think everyone can agree that it was not poor Mary Todd. Poor thing.

[25:47] Robert Bannon: But what I love, what I love so much about your work is that it's very rooted in queer culture and queer representation. You don't have to do queer art, you don't have to make queer movies or write a book about queer characters. Why do you choose it's so important that that is represented in your work?

[26:03] Lovell Holder: You know, it's I really appreciate that question. Thank you so much. A moment comes to mind where probably that happened around 2019, where up until that moment, I guess I kind of had always had the opinion of like, well, if I can fit it in, great. But I was also more open to stories that maybe didn't have those elements in there in any capacity. But I had written a screenplay that was for a horror movie that I still hope to get done. It was very much kind of Buffy meets the big chill type of reunion movie at a mountain house. There are creatures living inside the house, etc., etc. But within that ensemble, and it had happened very organically. Every character, there was only one in that ensemble of like nine characters, there was only one straight white man.

Otherwise, everyone was woman, queer person, person of color, some combination thereof of that Venn diagram. And I got notes back from a development executive that we had shared the project with who said basically, there are too many strong women, there are too many gay men, we need more diversity, add more white men. And I just, and I actually think I actually screenshot it. I didn't attribute it to who it came from, but I screenshot and I did put it on my Instagram just to be like, these are conversations that are had. We think we're so past this, we're not.

[27:40] Lovell Holder: Um I think rather than dispiriting me, it made me just want to be like to double down and be like, no, we're not gonna change anything in this script, even if you are offering me a path to the full budget here. That's just not a version of the movie I have any interest in making. And it actually wasn't long after that that I started writing The Book of Luke. I mean, I'm actually making that connection now for myself in real time, maybe even subconsciously, that was informing that. Because I think what I hope my work accomplishes is even if there is a queer lead, that the ensemble is robust enough that everyone still feels that they have a seat at the table. Because I think very often straight people might not might see a queer story and think, oh, there's not really a way in for me.

And not through any conscious homophobia or anything like that. I'm sure they have gay friends whom they love and care about, but they just think, oh, I this story just isn't meant for me, therefore I'm not gonna seek it out. And I hope with my work, as I hopefully get the chance to do more and more of it, is that everyone knows when they're coming in. There is a seat for them at that table, where like if you're if you're a straight reader reading The Book of Luke, you have PB and Jaime with their romance that kind of parallels the central queer couple and serves as a foil of how those two relationships bounce off each other in terms of betrayals, misunderstandings, reconciliations, and what the queer couple learns from watching the straight couple go through that.

[29:25] Lovell Holder: Um so yeah, I really appreciate the question. It's something I'm even more conscious of now than ever, and also just being honest with myself as the older I get, if I see if a story is coming to me, like as a producer, where I'm not the primary writer, if I'm not even the director, and it's something that I'm gonna be taking the time to uplift and give so much kind of sometimes literal blood, sweat, and tears. How are we contributing to the overall conversation? What underrepresented voice, even if it's not a queer voice, how are we activating that? I produced a movie Peak Season a couple years ago that I'm incredibly proud of because it was the core romance at the heart of it was an interracial romance between a young Latinx woman played beautifully by Claudia Restreppo, who's also an incredible filmmaker in her own right, but it was the type of romance that I felt I had never seen before, because the kind the woman who was kind of deciding between these two economic paths, this very certain, very rich man, and then this kind of ski bum guy who has no stability whatsoever. I was like, I've never seen a non-white character put in that choice, and that was really exciting and very easy for me to then get behind.

[30:46] Lovell Holder: Um, so yeah, I would say it's really about figuring out how do we find distinct stories, and for me, those are very often queer, certainly when I'm originating them, and just fighting to keep those torches going up the mountain and to help people see that even if you might not see a character where you're the lead of that story, your representation, your background, you don't know what you might find from that specificity that gives you a universal experience.

[31:17] Robert Bannon: I think it's so important. I think what you're doing is incredible. I want people to check it, check out the book. I want people to check out the television series, check out every I can't wait for the book to become a television series.

[31:30] Lovell Holder: From your lips to God's ears, fingers crossed, we're working on it.

[31:34] Robert Bannon: It's gonna happen. You're very in right now. You know, it's very in.

[31:36] Lovell Holder: It's a very oh my gosh, I don't think anyone in my life has ever told me now, but I'll be right back.

[31:42] Robert Bannon: The gays are in.

[31:43] Lovell Holder: Level, the gays are the gays are in. I think it may be heated rivalry. It may just be, I don't know, Lady Gaga. I don't know what it is, but the gays are in.

[31:50] Robert Bannon: Oh, well, bless heated rivalry. I do think I do think that look, it if the primary takeaway from heated rivalry was people realizing, oh, straight women like watching hot men kiss. Great. I'll give you that. I'll give you that. I'm happy, happy to play ball at that game. Sure. Sure. Let's do it.

[32:10] Robert Bannon: Congratulations I'll be getting my copy and I can't wait to check it out and read it this summer. I hope you all do too. And my show is your show anytime. I hope you come on back with more books, more movies, more things, more projects. And um, or if you just want to come back and and recap Survivor or uh come on and down.

[32:26] Lovell Holder: Oh Robert, you are knocking on a door that is already open. I will come back whenever you want me.

[32:30] Robert Bannon: All right, done. It's done. Everybody, Lovell Holder is here, The Book of Luke is available right now. You can get it wherever you get your books. Get a copy, download it, get it shipped to your house, and check it out as soon as you can. Happy pride. Enjoy every single second of this entire fun time of year.

[32:44] Lovell Holder: Thank you so much, happy pride, and thank you so much for having me. This was such a treat.