This transcript was automatically generated and might contain errors.

[0:00] Laura Camien: Hello, Metropolitan Opera lovers.

[0:02] Susan Blackwell: Welcome to the Sparkfile Podcast.

[0:03] Laura Camien: This episode was recorded live at the Met featuring Anthony Roth Costanzo, star of the Metropolitan Opera's Akhnaten.

[0:10] Susan Blackwell: If you enjoy creative conversations like this one, we hope you'll subscribe to the Sparkfile Podcast wherever you get your podcasts.

[0:16] Laura Camien: The Sparkfile Podcast may contain profanity and other adult content.

[0:20] Susan Blackwell: Please use your discretion.

[0:40] Laura Camien: I pump in my spark sauce.

[0:44] Susan Blackwell: I jump into my spot.

[1:03] Laura Camien: Yes, and welcome to the Sparkfile, your one-stop podcast for creative inspiration.

[1:08] Susan Blackwell: I'm Laura Camien.

[1:09] Susan Blackwell: And I'm Susan Blackwell.

[1:10] Laura Camien: If you're joining us for the first time, welcome.

[1:13] Susan Blackwell: You may be asking yourself, what exactly is a spark file?

[1:16] Laura Camien: Where do I get one?

[1:17] Susan Blackwell: What do I file in it?

[1:18] Laura Camien: These are good questions, people, and we have got answers.

[1:22] Susan Blackwell: Yes, we do.

[1:22] Laura Camien: A spark file is a place where you consistently collect all of your inspirations and fascinations.

[1:28] Susan Blackwell: Here's the deal.

[1:28] Laura Camien: We are makers who make all kinds of things.

[1:31] Susan Blackwell: If you're anything like us and you're making stuff all the time, or you want to be making stuff all the time, you already know that the wellspring of inspiration can sometimes run a little dry.

[1:41] Laura Camien: So we are on the lookout for fresh ideas, images, and inspiration that spark our creativity and pique our curiosity.

[1:48] Susan Blackwell: Things that inspire us to get up off of our asses and make things like this very podcast.

[1:54] Laura Camien: Yes.

[1:56] Susan Blackwell: Or perhaps make a castle that brings your wildest imaginings to life.

[2:03] Laura Camien: Interesting.

[2:05] Susan Blackwell: Or an opera that gives you a reason for living.

[2:10] Laura Camien: Suck on that.

[2:11] Susan Blackwell: Wow.

[2:13] Laura Camien: Top it.

[2:13] Susan Blackwell: Topic came in.

[2:14] Laura Camien: Stop it.

[2:15] Susan Blackwell: Can't top it.

[2:16] Laura Camien: Every episode, we're gonna reach into our spark files and exchange some sparks.

[2:20] Susan Blackwell: And today we're also gonna talk to someone who truly sparks us.

[2:24] Laura Camien: And if you're not careful, you might just get your creative pipe snaked.

[2:28] Susan Blackwell: So without further ado, let's open up the Sparkfile.

[2:34] Laura Camien: That classic.

[2:35] Susan Blackwell: That was good.

[2:35] Laura Camien: That was classy.

[2:36] Susan Blackwell: Yeah, that was a good one.

[2:37] Laura Camien: I wanted to do a super classy one because we're at the Metropolitan Opera House.

[2:41] Susan Blackwell: Goal accomplished, Blackwell.

[2:44] Laura Camien: Cams.

[2:45] Susan Blackwell: Babe.

[2:45] Laura Camien: We're at the Met.

[2:47] Susan Blackwell: We are.

[2:47] Laura Camien: It's so thrilling.

[2:49] Susan Blackwell: I was thrilled just knowing it was gonna happen, but now it's happening.

[2:52] Laura Camien: I'm like beyond it.

[2:53] Susan Blackwell: It's happening.

[2:55] Laura Camien: I know.

[2:55] Susan Blackwell: I feel like I won a contest.

[2:58] Laura Camien: It's super, super exciting.

[2:59] Susan Blackwell: And also it's exciting that we're doing a little something a tiny bit different with this episode.

[3:04] Laura Camien: That's right.

[3:04] Susan Blackwell: Normally we have two episodes a week, one where we share sparks and one where we talk to a maker.

[3:09] Laura Camien: Today it's all in one.

[3:11] Susan Blackwell: It's a combo platter, baby.

[3:12] Laura Camien: We got two sparks with a healthy side of maker.

[3:15] Susan Blackwell: It's gonna be great.

[3:16] Laura Camien: Um, but we have so much ground to cover as baby Cams would say.

[3:20] Susan Blackwell: I call this my little baby baby Cams.

[3:22] Laura Camien: That's right.

[3:23] Susan Blackwell: As little baby Cams would say, we have got 15 pounds of spark and a 10-pound bag.

[3:28] Laura Camien: So we better get to sparking.

[3:30] Susan Blackwell: Cams, I think you're going first.

[3:32] Laura Camien: I am, I am going first.

[3:34] Susan Blackwell: I will tell you this.

[3:35] Laura Camien: This podcast is really the great joy of my life.

[3:39] Susan Blackwell: I mean, I love my husband very much as well.

[3:40] Laura Camien: But this podcast and you're great too.

[3:43] Susan Blackwell: And one of the things I love so much about it is it's like every episode, because you're about to surprise me with this part.

[3:52] Laura Camien: That's right.

[3:53] Susan Blackwell: Every episode is like giving a gift and getting a gift.

[3:58] Laura Camien: And so I'm gonna sit back.

[4:00] Susan Blackwell: I'm gonna chili chill.

[4:01] Laura Camien: And I'm just gonna receive my gift.

[4:03] Susan Blackwell: That's right.

[4:04] Laura Camien: Receive them.

[4:05] Susan Blackwell: I can't wait.

[4:06] Laura Camien: Susan.

[4:08] Susan Blackwell: Richard Wagner said—

[4:08] Laura Camien: That's right.

[4:12] Susan Blackwell: You're jumping right in.

[4:13] Laura Camien: Straight classical.

[4:13] Susan Blackwell: Right in.

[4:14] Laura Camien: Go ahead.

[4:14] Susan Blackwell: It is not willpower, but fantasy and imagination that creates.

[4:19] Laura Camien: Imagination is the creative force.

[4:22] Susan Blackwell: Imagination creates reality.

[4:26] Laura Camien: Boom.

[4:26] Susan Blackwell: Get it, Wagner.

[4:27] Laura Camien: There is—

[4:29] Susan Blackwell: That's right.

[4:29] Laura Camien: There is a man born more than 150 years ago, whose imagination was not only his personal respite, his personal salvation in a way, but his imagination was so powerful, it created a legacy that we are living that we get to enjoy in our lives today.

[4:49] Susan Blackwell: Tell me more.

[4:50] Laura Camien: I will.

[4:52] Laura Camien: His titles include Count Palatine of the Rhine.

[4:57] Susan Blackwell: Wait a minute.

[4:58] Laura Camien: Wagner?

[4:58] Susan Blackwell: No, no.

[4:59] Laura Camien: This is the man I'm not sure.

[5:00] Susan Blackwell: Oh, you're—this is—oh, oh, I get it.

[5:02] Laura Camien: That's right.

[5:03] Susan Blackwell: You're about to intro somebody.

[5:04] Laura Camien: That's right.

[5:05] Susan Blackwell: No, I am introduced.

[5:06] Laura Camien: It's happening.

[5:07] Susan Blackwell: We're in the middle of it.

[5:08] Laura Camien: We're in it.

[5:09] Susan Blackwell: Like this right now is an introduction.

[5:11] Laura Camien: Wait, is this a spark?

[5:13] Susan Blackwell: It is.

[5:13] Laura Camien: I'm gonna stop interrupting you then.

[5:16] Susan Blackwell: No, but why?

[5:17] Laura Camien: But why stop?

[5:18] Susan Blackwell: It's more fun that way.

[5:19] Laura Camien: Wait, do it start fresh.

[5:20] Susan Blackwell: Okay, here we go.

[5:20] Laura Camien: Here we go.

[5:23] Susan Blackwell: It just sounds like you're about—

[5:25] Laura Camien: No, wait.

[5:26] Susan Blackwell: Is this the introduction?

[5:27] Laura Camien: It sounds like you're about like a WWF, like wrestler, isn't?

[5:34] Susan Blackwell: That's what it sounds like.

[5:35] Laura Camien: The Count of Palatine on the Rhine.

[5:37] Susan Blackwell: Yes, it is.

[5:38] Laura Camien: Also known as—

[5:39] Susan Blackwell: Yes.

[5:39] Laura Camien: The Duke of Franconia.

[5:41] Susan Blackwell: Really?

[5:42] Laura Camien: The Duke in Swabia.

[5:43] Susan Blackwell: Yes, yes.

[5:44] Laura Camien: He's got a lot.

[5:45] Susan Blackwell: He's sometimes called the Dream King.

[5:49] Laura Camien: Sometimes called the Fairy Tale King.

[5:51] Susan Blackwell: Pause.

[5:52] Laura Camien: I want everyone from this point forward to call me the Dream King.

[5:58] Susan Blackwell: You can't have it.

[5:59] Laura Camien: The title's taken.

[6:00] Susan Blackwell: God damn it.

[6:01] Laura Camien: Although, let me tell you about him.

[6:02] Susan Blackwell: And if you think you can top him, then we can discuss maybe.

[6:06] Laura Camien: Maybe you could be the Dream King.

[6:08] Susan Blackwell: He's also called the Fairy Tale King, the Swan King, or more frequently, the Mad King.

[6:16] Laura Camien: He once declared, I want to remain an eternal enigma to myself and to the world.

[6:24] Susan Blackwell: He is King Ludwig II of Bavaria.

[6:29] Laura Camien: That's right.

[6:30] Susan Blackwell: That's where he was there.

[6:32] Laura Camien: He's kind of a cutie.

[6:33] Susan Blackwell: He doesn't look like WWF, though.

[6:36] Laura Camien: No, no, he doesn't.

[6:37] Susan Blackwell: He and far too sensitive to be a wrestler, I'll say, but we'll get to that.

[6:44] Laura Camien: So he ruled Bavaria from 1860.

[6:47] Susan Blackwell: Wait, is it Bavaria or Bavaria?

[6:50] Laura Camien: Um, you say Bavaria, I say Bavaria.

[6:54] Susan Blackwell: Okay.

[6:54] Laura Camien: It's a little of that.

[6:55] Susan Blackwell: I'm from Kansas.

[6:56] Laura Camien: I don't know.

[6:57] Susan Blackwell: Does anybody in the audience know?

[6:58] Laura Camien: Bavaria, Bavaria.

[7:00] Susan Blackwell: Bavaria.

[7:01] Laura Camien: I only know that because I like their pretzels.

[7:05] Susan Blackwell: Bavarian pretzels?

[7:07] Laura Camien: Oh, what, why are you looking at me like I'm insane?

[7:10] Susan Blackwell: Well, you might be the Mad King.

[7:14] Laura Camien: You got a Bavarian.

[7:16] Susan Blackwell: Oh, sorry, go ahead.

[7:17] Laura Camien: Bavaria, yeah.

[7:18] Susan Blackwell: Pretzels.

[7:19] Laura Camien: There you go.

[7:20] Susan Blackwell: I wish I could tie that in and say that he was also responsible for Bavarian changes.

[7:24] Laura Camien: Just say it.

[7:25] Susan Blackwell: We're not journalists, we're not academics.

[7:27] Laura Camien: Just say it.

[7:28] Susan Blackwell: Ludwig.

[7:29] Laura Camien: He's all over it.

[7:30] Susan Blackwell: All right.

[7:31] Laura Camien: So he is one of the most legendary figures in Bavarian and German history.

[7:36] Susan Blackwell: And if you think about it, they already have quite a few legendary figures.

[7:40] Laura Camien: So word.

[7:41] Susan Blackwell: So he's up there.

[7:43] Laura Camien: In a New York Times article in 1995, Julius de Singh, who at that time had been a member of the loosely organized Ludwig cult for about 30 years,

[7:55] Susan Blackwell: He says, Ludwig sparks the imagination of people around the world.

[7:59] Laura Camien: Young people admire him because he insisted on going his own way rather than playing the role that had been set out for him.

[8:05] Susan Blackwell: Older people are fascinated with the whole tragic mystery of his life and death.

[8:14] Laura Camien: It's going to be an abbreviated version today.

[8:16] Susan Blackwell: But I think we're really primed and ready for a new flurry of Ludwig cult members.

[8:21] Laura Camien: I really do.

[8:22] Susan Blackwell: I think they're ready for an influx of new members.

[8:24] Laura Camien: And I'll be one.

[8:25] Susan Blackwell: I might join.

[8:26] Laura Camien: What do you think your uniforms are gonna be?

[8:28] Susan Blackwell: Like your cult right there.

[8:32] Laura Camien: I like this look for you.

[8:34] Susan Blackwell: A red sash and the high boot.

[8:36] Laura Camien: I like it.

[8:37] Susan Blackwell: I like that.

[8:37] Laura Camien: And um, if you're listening and you can't see that image, it'll be an honor on Instagram, I think.

[8:42] Susan Blackwell: Follow us at the Sparkfile.

[8:44] Laura Camien: The Sparkfile.

[8:45] Susan Blackwell: Um, so little Ludwig was born in 1845, and right from the start, we have lies and we have secrecy, which I just love this stuff.

[8:54] Laura Camien: So he was born around like just before midnight on August 24th, but they kept the whole thing secret so they could lie and say that he was born on August 25th, which is also the birthday of his grandfather, King Ludwig I.

[9:09] Susan Blackwell: Got it, okay.

[9:10] Laura Camien: And they originally named him Otto, but for some reason, like two weeks later, they're like, actually, no, no, no.

[9:18] Susan Blackwell: I think we'll go with Ludwig.

[9:19] Laura Camien: Really?

[9:19] Susan Blackwell: Yeah, we'll go with Ludwig.

[9:20] Laura Camien: So they switch it again, and I just think it seems like an awful lot of like, hey, let's make this connection to grandpa.

[9:27] Susan Blackwell: Got it.

[9:28] Laura Camien: Okay, okay, okay.

[9:29] Susan Blackwell: And then I read that there's numerous rumors that his father was not his real father.

[9:34] Laura Camien: So perhaps his mom was like looking out to make this connection, right?

[9:40] Susan Blackwell: So I think mom was looking out for the security of the lineage there, and like the stronger we can make this tie with grandpa, the better we have to be.

[9:49] Laura Camien: Yeah, okay.

[9:50] Susan Blackwell: Okay, that's a PR spin right there.

[9:53] Laura Camien: Um, his parents weren't particularly interested in him or his brother, and they weren't particularly interested in each other.

[10:00] Susan Blackwell: So it was notoriously quiet in the house.

[10:04] Laura Camien: Or in the castle, I guess.

[10:06] Susan Blackwell: It's notoriously quiet castle.

[10:08] Laura Camien: Um, and no one really talked to each other.

[10:10] Susan Blackwell: So Ludwig retreated into this whole fantasy world of his own imagination.

[10:16] Laura Camien: He was a very expressive and creative little boy.

[10:19] Susan Blackwell: He was artistic and sensitive, and this castle that he grew up with in was filled with images of German mythology.

[10:27] Laura Camien: There were frescoes that depicted characters from the Ring of the Nibelungs.

[10:31] Susan Blackwell: Nibelungs.

[10:33] Laura Camien: Girl, why are you looking at me for pronunciation of the Nibelungs?

[10:37] Susan Blackwell: Because of Bavaria.

[10:39] Laura Camien: Now I'm gonna—

[10:42] Susan Blackwell: Right.

[10:43] Laura Camien: Bavaria.

[10:44] Susan Blackwell: That's what I said.

[10:45] Laura Camien: Bavaria, right?

[10:46] Susan Blackwell: We'll take that out of the way.

[10:48] Laura Camien: Um, so he—like this castle was just filled with these images.

[10:53] Susan Blackwell: Um, Charlemagne.

[10:56] Laura Camien: Yes, check, Charlemagne.

[10:57] Susan Blackwell: Thank you.

[10:58] Laura Camien: Check.

[10:58] Susan Blackwell: That sounded great.

[10:58] Laura Camien: Uh, Dietrich von Bern.

[11:00] Susan Blackwell: Uh, sure.

[11:01] Laura Camien: Check.

[11:03] Susan Blackwell: And his favorite, Lohengrin.

[11:07] Laura Camien: Thank you.

[11:09] Susan Blackwell: Lohengrin.

[11:10] Laura Camien: Great.

[11:10] Susan Blackwell: So when Ludwig was 12 years old, Wagner's Lohengrin was showing in Munich, and he begged his father to let him go.

[11:19] Laura Camien: Like, begged him.

[11:21] Susan Blackwell: I'm sorry. Is Lohengrin an opera?

[11:24] Laura Camien: It is.

[11:25] Susan Blackwell: I didn't know.

[11:25] Laura Camien: Oh, I'm so excited that you didn't know that.

[11:28] Susan Blackwell: That's exciting.

[11:28] Laura Camien: And you could fill some books with what I don't know.

[11:32] Susan Blackwell: So we'll start here.

[11:33] Laura Camien: So it was one of Wagner's operas.

[11:36] Susan Blackwell: And he knew that, and it's filled with all these same characters that surrounded him as a child.

[11:41] Laura Camien: So he was like super psyched.

[11:44] Susan Blackwell: Lohengrin.

[11:45] Laura Camien: That's right.

[11:45] Susan Blackwell: Lohengrin.

[11:46] Laura Camien: Okay.

[11:46] Susan Blackwell: I'm with you.

[11:47] Laura Camien: But dad, remember, like they had nothing in common.

[11:50] Susan Blackwell: His dad was like so not into him, he's like, you can't go.

[11:53] Laura Camien: Yeah.

[11:53] Susan Blackwell: But he pestered him and begged him for three more years.

[11:57] Laura Camien: That's right.

[11:59] Susan Blackwell: Circled around eventually, three years later, when he was 15, he was allowed to see the opera.

[12:04] Laura Camien: And once he did, his life was changed like forever more.

[12:10] Susan Blackwell: There was no going back after that.

[12:12] Laura Camien: Like he lost himself.

[12:13] Susan Blackwell: He almost lost his mind watching this opera.

[12:17] Laura Camien: It was like his whole imaginary world was brought to life.

[12:21] Susan Blackwell: Um, people recorded that he was weeping, and it was a very, very big deal for him.

[12:27] Laura Camien: After the show, he just threw himself into anything he could get his hands on related to Wagner—articles, essays, pamphlets, libretto.

[12:36] Susan Blackwell: He even read the preface to Wagner's not yet produced Ring Cycle.

[12:42] Laura Camien: So he read this preface, and in that preface, Wagner rhetorically asks, like, hey, maybe someday, who knows, there'll be a prince who has the means and the resources and the authority to bring this work to stage.

[12:56] Susan Blackwell: Wouldn't that be crazy?

[12:57] Laura Camien: Wow.

[12:58] Susan Blackwell: And here's our 15-year-old Ludwig.

[13:01] Laura Camien: It's a few years away, but he eventually becomes that prince who emerges to make that a reality, which is pretty awesome.

[13:09] Susan Blackwell: That's amazing.

[13:10] Laura Camien: It's pretty cool.

[13:11] Susan Blackwell: But before that could happen, Ludwig's life changed completely.

[13:16] Laura Camien: When he was 18 years old, his dad got sick suddenly and he died.

[13:20] Susan Blackwell: Like literally, he was sick for three days and he died.

[13:22] Laura Camien: Oh shit.

[13:23] Susan Blackwell: Unexpected, Ludwig was thrust into the role of the king, not particularly prepared and frankly not particularly interested in being the king.

[13:30] Laura Camien: 18 years old.

[13:31] Susan Blackwell: 18 years old.

[13:32] Laura Camien: But guess what you can do when you're the king?

[13:34] Susan Blackwell: What?

[13:35] Laura Camien: Anything you fucking want.

[13:38] Susan Blackwell: Well, Blackwell, it is funny that you say that, because we're gonna circle back to that.

[13:43] Laura Camien: Uh, I don't know that this is a good thing.

[13:44] Susan Blackwell: Oh, except for all the things you don't want to do.

[13:46] Laura Camien: Except for what you can't do.

[13:47] Susan Blackwell: But we'll get to that.

[13:48] Laura Camien: You're right.

[13:48] Susan Blackwell: Okay.

[13:49] Laura Camien: But the really, really cool thing is, and one of the things that completely sparked me is that the very first thing he did as king was establish a new court theater.

[13:58] Susan Blackwell: I yes.

[13:59] Susan Blackwell: I mean, can we talk about that for a second? Like, I have a fantasy. Like, what like what leader could be elected? And they're like, the very first thing I want to do is just give the arts what they need. Like, let us contend with our collective emotional needs first and foremost. Like, that's really, really exciting. So he dug into it. Some people thought he was crazy for it, but he didn't care. Bad king. There you go. He didn't care. So he starts with the arts, but unfortunately, almost immediately, he's still 18. The country has to go to war against Prussia. They lose a very quick but very painful loss. And after Prussia wins, Bavaria is now part of the new German Empire. Okay. Yeah. So he's still king of Bavaria, but they're a little less like he doesn't actually have final say in a lot of things, um, because they're part of this greater empire.

So we'll get back to that in a minute. But he was devastated by the loss, but at least after the war, he could get back to what he really wanted to do, which was throw himself into these extravagant artistic and architectural projects that would literally bring his imagination to life.

[15:19] Laura Camien: So was he like a producer in a way? Or well, was he an artist himself?

[15:27] Susan Blackwell: Yes, okay. He was in some ways, um, but he also was a supporter of the art. So one of the first things he did was summon Richard Wagner to his courts. Oh, yeah. Because he had been obsessed, he had been obsessed, and oh, I have a slide. So glad I remembered that. Who does? Um Richard Wagner. I don't fucking know. I'm learning. I never knew that's what he looked like. Dude is giving me light Abraham Lincoln vibes. A little bit. A little bit. A little bit, yeah. So Wagner wasn't especially easy to find at that time because he had a reputation as a philanderer, a political radical, which is putting it kindly. And he was almost always on the run from creditors. And at that particular time, he was living in exile, literally hiding from the people that he owed money to.

[16:27] Laura Camien: Really?

[16:28] Susan Blackwell: That is right. He ran up that credit card and he was like, my husband and remember that at this time you could go to jail for debt. So, like it was no joke. So he's a hard man to track down. Hard man to track down. But the king's people found him. And they brought him to the court. They talked for an hour and a half. They, you know, they I don't know. Fell in love, is probably I don't know. Speculation. But um, they were fond of each other after that hour and a half. Yeah. And I'll tell you more about that too. So later, Wagner wrote about the king and his first meeting with Ludwig, quote, alas, he is so handsome and wise, soulful and lovely, that I fear that his life must melt away in this vulgar world like a fleeting dream of the gods.

It's a bit of a prophecy. Unless Valentine Wagner. That is possible. So after the meeting, they begin this long friendship. It's somewhat a complicated relationship, which we'll get into, but um a long friendship nonetheless. And Wagner, I'm sorry, Ludwig decides to sponsor him essentially. He puts him up with a home, he gives him a stipend. Like Wagner never has to worry about paying these debts or being, you know, in trouble again.

[17:47] Laura Camien: Amazing.

[17:48] Susan Blackwell: And he can focus just on writing. Um, at first, Ludwig housed him close to him, like in the capital city, but Wagner's behavior was so extravagant and scandalous that the conservative people of Bavaria didn't take so kindly to it. Oh no. So the king was pressured to ask Wagner to leave the city only six months later. What was he doing? That's another story for another day. But instead, Ludwig uh provided a beautiful home for Wagner in Switzerland, right by Lake Lucerne. Which name drop, uh, if you've never been there, it is one of the most beautiful places in the whole world. I would suggest you go. I did. I didn't go there. That's also another long story. I'm well, I'm looking at the top. Sorry.

Um, but no, I did, I did, and went to uh Lake Lugano in Switzerland. That whole area is literally like the most gorgeous. But so there's Wagner, nice and comfortable, riding away up in his beautiful home. When Ludwig was forced to move him out of the city, he was so upset about it he considered abdicating his throne in order to follow Wagner to Lake Lucerne.

[19:01] Laura Camien: I smell love.

[19:01] Susan Blackwell: I smell that's right. Yeah, yeah, yeah. That's right. But Wagner persuaded him to stay on the throne. I think he knew. I think he knew it might be a little bit more beneficial for him. He's like, stay on the throne for Ludwig. You got the throne. Stay there, stay there. Yeah, we're gonna need you. We're gonna need you. But this is a really interesting side bit here. So there are those people who believe that the two of them may have had more than a friendship. But Wagner's like escapades with women are well documented. This crazy on and off with his wife, his first wife. You can have it all. You can have it all. There's no record of it though, but so but people speculate nonetheless. Um, but King Ludwig was very likely gay.

He never married, he was engaged to his cousin, but he called it off. There's no not a single record of him ever having a relationship with a woman, but on the other hand, there are records of him being very, very close to his male entourage.

[19:56] Susan Blackwell: What I found really interesting and sparkish was this fact and looking at it through this lens. Remember, I told you that they lost that war when he was 18 and became part of the German Empire. Prior to that, homosexuality in Bavaria was legal. So he grew up, and his as his sexuality emerged, it was legal. He becomes king, they lose this war. Now homosexuality is illegal in all of the German Empire. Yeah. So just looking at it through that lens, like what did that do to his feeling of like powerlessness to be like, I am in charge, but I can't affect change for the laws that affect me deeply and personally. I don't know that he ever really really got over that. But I think there's a really interesting story there, and I think that it would be so great for someone to tell.

Like his story has been told many ways in different ways, but I don't know that anyone's ever told the story that way and really looked at it at the impact of that, and I think it would be interesting. So if you're listening and that sparks you in any way, please take it and make it that could be so.

[21:07] Laura Camien: He's gonna tell that story.

[21:08] Susan Blackwell: We need it. Movie. That's right. Yeah, that's good. And the most exciting thing is that despite the laws of the land, despite the laws of the church, by every indication, Ludwig lived his life authentically as himself as much as he could. So I think that's very inspiring to people. So some people believe that he and Wagner were lovers, but there's no lasting proof of that. One thing that they certainly shared was a passion for the work, and they were both obsessed with the desire to keep the focus on the work. They together, I think, ushered in a new era of theater going, an era that we still enjoy in our modern theaters today. They transformed the theater going experience, making it less about seeing and being seen. Oh, and making it more about the experience of the experience of the storytelling and the artist.

[22:02] Laura Camien: Interesting.

[22:03] Susan Blackwell: One of the biggest ways they did that, there's a whole story here, but they did that by building the ideal opera house, the Bayreuth. How do we do it? Is that Bayreuth? The festival hall, which is what I'll refer to it from now on. The festival hall, um, to house the Wagner's ring cycle. And he imagined it at first that they were gonna build this whole thing, do the ring cycle and then tear it down, but they did not tear it down. Um thankfully, but the theater is remarkable and it's revolutionary in many ways. The seating, oh, this is this is uh this is the image of it um from the outside, but inside the seating was intended to be entirely democratic. There are no boxes and no special seating for important people.

By the standards of the day, it's quite unornamental. It may not look like that to us, but compared to the other opera houses of the day, it was pretty clean. Um, the orchestra pit is entirely concealed from view. He Wagner wanted to make sure that even the orchestra was not a distraction from the story that he was telling and the work that he was doing. And to further assist with focus, his this theater was the first ever to present the operas with the house lights entirely turned off, which was innovative at the time.

[23:29] Laura Camien: Wow.

[23:29] Susan Blackwell: It was amazing. So it was these dudes. It was these dudes. Nice dudes. Thank you. So the audience could sit in the dark and not be distracted by like you know, their neighbors and who's wearing what and glittering down your friends all of them. Exactly. Yeah. So together they created theatrical traditions that we take for granted, I think, now, and we still continue to enjoy. But throughout his life, Ludwig was not only a patron of the arts, but he was a creative being himself. He gave life to his imagination in many, many ways. One of which was building castles, which is a really fun habit to have and a hobby, like, hey, let's build a new castle. Build yourself a castle. That's right. That's right.

Um, so he built some of the most famous Bavarian castles, many of which are the biggest tourist attractions today. Um, they're extravagant, they're over the top, and each are unique. I'm gonna do this super fast. Um, there are castles that have uh grottos, you can take a gondola to the stage. Very little this is a very phantom of the opera. Very phantom of the opera. Um, this little cave-like space, beautifully lit, and of course, designed for what? Opera performances. Sorry, opera performances. Got it, yeah. Making out at opera performances. He created his own version of the Palace of Versailles. Only he built his on an island in the middle of a lake. So he could that's how I'm gonna do mine too.

That's right, that's right. I know. Um so he could have privacy, and he even had a replica of the famous Hall of Mirrors. He did it up. But the most famous of his castles Neuschwan's is Hogwarts. Oh, sorry, what is it? It's not Hogwarts. What is it called? Neuspanstein. Did you practice that? I did. Good girl. Thank you. Thank you. Um, but this is also known as the Disney Castle because it inspired Walt Disney to create the Sleeping Beauty Castle. And I mean, come on, it's your ultimate clifftop refuge. If you're looking for one, that's the place to go. And I am in the market. And you are in the market. It, of course, also has a theater for opera. So he spared no expense. But the the problem was not a shortage of ideas and imagination, but ultimately he did have a shortage of funds.

[25:51] Laura Camien: Oh.

[25:52] Susan Blackwell: That's right. So he literally spent everything he had to try to live out this fantasy that he had in his head. Wow. Um, he eventually got so far into debt that it gave his political enemies a little bit of wiggle room there to take him down. Wow. So they started to create a long list of things that he did that they thought were crazy, including supporting the arts. Um nuts, totally nuts. Um, but based on this list, they had a doctor declare him insane. The doctor had never even examined him. Wow. But he was declared insane. They stripped him of his title. The authorities captured him and sent him off to get psychiatric treatment. And three days later, his body and the body of the chief psychiatrist were found floating in a lake.

[26:41] Laura Camien: When did this become a true crime podcast?

[26:44] Susan Blackwell: Sorry, that's a again. There's what I'm saying, there's so many side stories. Like you could totally tell his story through so many different lenses. Oh my god. We will never know the mystery of his death. It's very doubtful that it was an accident. It's more likely that he was a victim of you know, an orchestrated coup or even a hate crime, because again, people were not happy with like how outwardly he lived his life. I don't want to, I don't want to bust your what do you mean of this? But has anybody made a book, a movie, a not in a long time. It's prized and ready. This exact moment. I don't know if they've done anything about this exact moment or not. Um, if they have, it has not been for a long time. It is hot and ready for someone to dive into it.

[27:32] Laura Camien: That's fascinating.

[27:33] Susan Blackwell: So we'll never know for sure how he died, but we definitely know how he lived as a creative being and a patron of the arts. And all of that really got me thinking like he felt such a strong calling in his heart to support artists whose work truly moved his soul. He felt compelled to make sure that their work got seen and heard. It's possible that he was literally the savior of Wagner's career.

[27:59] Laura Camien: And it's possible that without him, we wouldn't know Wagner's name, we wouldn't know his work. And that just makes me think about how many artists there are out there, either from history or living today, whose work just may not ever get seen because they don't have a Ludwig in their life. And I'm not saying that we all need to, you know, have an artist move into your empty bedroom. Um, but we're not not saying that. It's always a possibility. But I think there's so many ways to be a patron, whether it is buying a subscription to a theater, it is uh, you know, all of our artist friends who have GoFundMe pages, chip in a little bit or just give them a little bit of Ludwig. Yes, be someone's Ludwig.

I like that stuff. Support them. Um, you never know just what a difference it might make. And if you're an artist, just hang on, like know that it is possible for things to change. Wagner wrote this in his autobiography. On the same day that I met Ludwig, I had received the most urgent warnings to never return to Vienna. But my life was to have no more of those alarms. I was never again to feel the weight of everyday hardship or of existence under the protection of my exalted friend. And he also said this: one supreme fact which I have discovered is that it is not willpower, but fantasy and imagination that creates. Imagination is the creative force, imagination creates reality. King Ludwig certainly created his own reality through his imagination.

Maybe it was a coping mechanism. Maybe it was his only source of joy, we don't know. But his imagination was strong enough to also create some of our reality. More than 150 years later, we're still listening to music, visiting castles, watching performances of genius artistic work, all thanks to him, The Mad King. What a good spark.

[30:13] Susan Blackwell: He's rich with such good information. Like that was talk about a top line. That was a fast, fast top line, but there's so much good stuff to get into. So many good sparks in that, and so many things. I mean, in addition to the normal ones, like do the ring cycle, produce that, perform that, sing from that. It's amazing. And Wagner wasn't the only person that he supported. He had he commissioned more than 200 operas, plays, ballets. He wanted to make sure the people of Bavaria saw the great, you know, Shakespeare and Ibsen and uh Mozart. Wow, yeah. Amazing. Good spark. All right. She got Blackwell. Here we go. I'm excited. Okay, here we go. So the sources for my spark today uh come from CBS News.com, specifically an episode of 60 Minutes with reporting by Bob Simon.

May he rest in power. A video from the study guide from Opera Theater St. Louis, a New York Times review by Charles Isherwood, an article by Annie Cohen on the website Jta.org, a YouTube video by Taylor Russell, boozy.com, an article by Susan, yes, an art boozy.com. I think it may be a different boozy that you're thinking of. Um an article by Suzanne Katz in the Atlanta Jewish Times, Vetem Underground.com, and an article by Alexander Lee on history today.com. And this, my friends, is my spark.

[31:50] Laura Camien: When we were performing that opera, we forgot where we were. We forgot all of our troubles. Music was part of our resistance. So this is what Cam and I like to call a dark spark. If you're listening with young children, I encourage you to use your discretion. Once upon a time, there was a little girl named Ella, and she was born on June 30th, 1930, in a small town in what is now part of the Czech Republic, very close to Germany. And when she was little, she knew that her birthday, June 30th, was a special day because it was the last day of school before summer break. So all the kids loved it. Ella was the second daughter to Max and Marquita Stein and little sister to Ilona. They had a close-knit family, and Ella recalled having a lovely childhood in the summer.

They would pick mushrooms and blueberries, they would go to concerts. There was a lot of skiing in the winter. At that time, the Czech Republic was a democracy that didn't experience anti-Semitism. So when Hitler began his campaign against the Jews, Ella's father didn't suspect that their lives would be disrupted. When he would listen to Hitler's speeches on the radio, Ella and her big sister would put their fingers in their little ears because it was loud and they knew it was bad. So when Ella was just eight years old, townspeople came to the Stein's home. They painted Jews out on their front door and smashed all of the windows around the town. The date of that was November 9th, 1938, what would come to be known as the first night of Kristallnacht or the night of broken glass. And shortly after that night, they never saw their father again.

[33:30] Laura Camien: So I know, here's the tissues. How old was Ella? She was around eight years old at this time. She was eight years old. So Ella was eventually relocated to Prague with her mother and her sister, and that's when they were required to wear Jewish stars on all the layers of their clothing. And her school friends who were not Jewish stopped talking to the to them and playing with them. And she said sometimes the Jewish kids would play at the Jewish cemetery because they knew for sure other Jewish kids would be there and they'd have people to play with. So at the age of 11, three years later, 11 years old, Ella, her mother, and her sister were sent to Teresenstadt, which is a transit camp run by the Nazis.

And she remembers being expelled from the transport train, forced to march through the snow for miles, and finally reaching the town where she watched these huge wooden gates of Theresed close behind her. And at 11 years old, she knew she was in prison. Mercifully, she was allowed to stay with her mother and her sister in the same barracks. But thousands of prisoners were forced to live in these tight quarters. They were crammed into rooms and halls and stairwells of buildings. There wasn't enough to eat.

[35:00] Laura Camien: And sugar for uh her daughters. So Terrazen, a little history about Terrazen, it had been a military fortress built in the 1780s by the Austrian Empire, and it was abandoned by the old ruling military. So the fortress Terrazen became the town Terrazen with a population of about 7,000. And in June of 1940, the Nazis took control of Terrazen, expelled its non-Jewish residents, renamed it Terrazenstadt, and began promoting it as a model Jewish settlement to the outside world, while in reality it served as a transit camp for those being transported to Auschwitz and other concentration camps. So Theresenstadt had a few nicknames, depending on your ideology. Some called it the Fuhrer's Gift to the Jews, but others called it the waiting room for Auschwitz.

It was open for three and a half years. Nearly 140,000 Jews from all over Central Europe passed through on their way to other camps. And while they were not gassed at Theresenstadt, more than 30,000 people died because of disease and hunger. So there, despite these terrible living conditions and the constant threat that you were going to be deported out to one of the death camps, Theresenstadt had this very highly developed cultural life. Outstanding prominent Jewish artists, mainly from Czechoslovakia, Austria, and Germany, created clandestine drawings and paintings and left a record of what it was like to live there.

[36:35] Laura Camien: In addition, writers, professors, musicians, and actors would give lectures and concerts and theater performances, and they had a lending library of 60,000 volumes that people had brought with them, smuggled in. And maybe some that were left over from when it was a town. So because there were many musicians and artists in Terrazen, music flourished in the camp. And one piece that I saw compared it to a Juilliard for Jews. There were classes and concerts in cellars and attics, and much of it had to be done in secret. In addition to all of these brilliant adults, 15,000 children passed through Therese and Stadt. And all these kids needed something to do when they're adult, the adults were sent away to work every day.

And although they were forbidden to do so, they sort of attended these makeshift schools in secret to maintain a vestige of normalcy. And in these schools, they would sing and they play and they painted pictures. And if they had a little pencil or a little piece of paper, they would write little poems. He smuggled in the piano score of a children's opera named Brundebar. He asked if it was possible for the children of Terrazen to sing in the opera. So they were already singing in their in their rooms and in their makeshift schools. So one of the caretakers, this young piano teacher, sent them to audition for Brunabar. And one of the people that auditioned was Ella. And she was really nervous and she wondered, oh, who's gonna get a part?

And they went in and they had their little audition and they sang the scale, and Ella was cast in the role of the cat. She had no idea what opera would feature a cat. But when she saw her mom, she was allowed to visit her mom for about an hour every single day. She saw her mom and she told her mom, Mom, I'm singing in a children's opera, and I be the cat. And her mom looked at her and said, Wagner never had a cat in the opera. But Ella knew that her mom was very happy.

[39:01] Susan Blackwell: Singing seems like a very difficult thing to stay hidden in the like the tension, like the danger of the five. I think you're right. I think there was a lot of um just sort of overlooking, you know, sometimes the rules were very strictly enforced and sometimes less so. This is the poster for the opera Brundebar. So Brunebar is a children's opera. The music is by Hans Krasa, and the libretto is by Adolf Hoffmeister. Hans Krasa was born in the city of Prague in 1899. He began composing music as a child and had his first piece publicly performed when he was 11. He learned violin and piano as a child and later studied composition in Berlin and Paris. Brunebar was created as a submission for a children's opera competition in 1938.

And as Czechoslovakia awaited its imminent invasion by Germany, the whole music competition got shut down, so no winner was announced, no prize money was awarded. And then uh the composer, Krasow, was arrested, and he was soon transported to Theresenstadt.

[40:21] Laura Camien: Wow. Yeah. So this this children's opera, Brundebar, is a fantasy story about these two little kids. Their mom is sick, and they try to earn money to buy her milk to make her well by singing in the marketplace. But they keep getting drowned out by this evil, mustachioed organ grinder named Brunebar. And he's got this mechanical organ, and all he has to do is turn the crank on his organ. But the kids have real musical skill, but it takes all of the children in the town singing together with their voices rising up and the help of a magical cat, dog and bird, to make this work of art that earns them the money that they need to make their mother healthy. And in the end, the foe is sent packing and everybody sings a victory song.

So many concerts, plays, and lectures were allowed at Therese and Stadt, and then they were taken away as punishment. So that I know, I know. So the cast of Brunebar is rehearsing this. They get cast, they're excited, they're rehearsing it, but they don't know if it's going to get taken away, if it would ever be presented. But on September 23rd, 1943, Brundebar was performed in front of an audience of Jews and watchful Nazi guards. And here is a photo. And this is Ella as the cat. Her costume was her sister's ski pants and her mother's sweater. And the director had smuggled in, had the foresight to smuggle in a little stage makeup. So you'll see she has little whiskers and she has her little feet, bare feet, sort of blacked to play the little black Cat.

[42:01] Susan Blackwell: Um, it was received with deafening applause because many in the audience knew that the cruel organ grinder Brundibar represented Hitler and the opera was playing out his defeat.

[42:01] Laura Camien: And the opera was presented every week thereafter.

[42:16] Susan Blackwell: Dita Krauss, who was in the ensemble of Brundibar, remembers that tickets were printed for every performance, and it was not easy to get in.

[42:25] Laura Camien: Totally standing room only.

[42:27] Susan Blackwell: But the most special part was that when they performed, they felt like they were really special. And she said, Ella said that for those children, Brundibar was their entire lives and that she would never forget it.

[42:47] Laura Camien: So Eva Gross, who was 20 at the time and taught the children, said, "All I can hear and see is Ella never stopping singing the cat."

[42:57] Susan Blackwell: So we all sang the cat in the end. Because you know when kids are in like the school play and they won't stop doing their parts, she would never stop. She just lived for it. So they all knew the part of the cat.

[43:09] Laura Camien: The lead role, uh, the part of Brundibar was played by a boy named Hansa Triklinger.

[43:15] Susan Blackwell: One article said that Hansa seemed to know instinctively how to make the villain human by twitching his false mustache so skillfully with such impeccable timing, um, that he might have been on the stage his whole life.

[43:28] Laura Camien: And Ella said everybody loved him, everybody just adored him.

[43:31] Susan Blackwell: There he is. Sorry, there he is. The whole town was mesmerized by the opera, the story of this evil man with a mustache.

[43:40] Laura Camien: But they wondered: did the kids really have any idea what the opera was really about?

[43:45] Susan Blackwell: And their teacher, Eva Gross, has said in interviews: yes, they knew. They knew exactly the symbolic meaning.

[43:52] Laura Camien: Oh, yes, they knew.

[43:54] Susan Blackwell: Honda Drori, who, as a little girl once got to a chance to play the role of the dog, said, "It was our way to fight the evil."

[44:03] Laura Camien: For the children on stage, Brundibar was a way for them to act out and defeat Hitler over and over and over again.

[44:10] Susan Blackwell: It was like their secret act of resistance. And the teacher Eva Gross said, it was very liberating.

[44:17] Laura Camien: And of course, not only the whole room, the whole house, the whole town sang the victory song afterwards.

[44:24] Susan Blackwell: Asked if the Germans didn't realize what was going on, Handra Drory said, yeah, we wondered that all the time.

[44:32] Laura Camien: If they don't understand what we're singing is against them, or if they just don't care because they knew what we didn't know that we were all meant to go to the gas chambers.

[44:42] Susan Blackwell: So indeed, rehearsals and performances were continuously disrupted by the deportation of cast members to the extermination camps.

[44:50] Laura Camien: And then those players would be replaced by newly arriving children.

[44:54] Susan Blackwell: Brundibar would be performed 55 times through the following year. And at every single performance, Ella continued to play the cat.

[45:05] Laura Camien: So these Nazis, as you know, were masters of propaganda, and they promoted Theresienstadt as a model camp to hide their deportations and the exterminations of Europe's Jewish population.

[45:16] Susan Blackwell: And in their propaganda, Theresienstadt was described as a spa town where elderly German Jews could retire in safety.

[45:25] Laura Camien: And it was all part of this strategy of deception.

[45:28] Susan Blackwell: In June of 1944, succumbing to pressures, the Germans permitted the International Red Cross to visit.

[45:35] Laura Camien: And in an elaborate hoax, the SS decided to deceive the delegation into believing that it actually was a self-administered Jewish settlement.

[45:47] Susan Blackwell: So shortly before their visit, they concocted this unbelievable piece of theater.

[45:54] Laura Camien: They deported 7,500 Jews so that Theresienstadt wouldn't look overcrowded.

[45:59] Susan Blackwell: They beautified the ghetto, they planted flowers and gardens, they painted houses, they renovated the barracks, they built a kindergarten, they opened coffee shops and stores, and they put a bandstand in the town square.

[46:12] Laura Camien: And on June 23rd, 1944, the Red Cross delegates came for their one day visit, and this whole sh—it's like curtain up.

[46:20] Susan Blackwell: One survivor reported that the Nazis selected the people, like they cast the people to sit in the cafe in the town.

[46:27] Laura Camien: This is like a fucking movie to me. I can't believe it.

[46:30] Susan Blackwell: They selected the people to sit there in the town square to drink coffee, to listen to music.

[46:37] Laura Camien: They would select these young, pretty women to sit there, and they made Theresienstadt look like this beautiful, quaint, charming little place for one day.

[46:45] Susan Blackwell: This makes me angry.

[46:46] Laura Camien: I know so many feelings.

[46:48] Susan Blackwell: I know it makes my blood boil, but it makes me spark too. Like it's um, yeah, it's a lot.

[46:56] Laura Camien: So they also staged social and cultural events for visiting dignitaries, and they decided that a performance of Brundibar would be the centerpiece.

[47:06] Susan Blackwell: So a special performance of the opera was given, utilizing improved sets and costumes.

[47:12] Laura Camien: And this young boy, Paul Sanfort was in the orchestra that day, and he played the trumpet.

[47:18] Susan Blackwell: And that little boy in the little vest is Paul.

[47:22] Laura Camien: And he said that performance was more tense because you had this feeling of you must not fail.

[47:30] Susan Blackwell: You must play for your life.

[47:32] Laura Camien: So the Red Cross delegates went exactly where the Nazis took them.

[47:35] Susan Blackwell: They didn't question the prisoners.

[47:37] Laura Camien: In fact, the Swiss head of delegation took pictures like this one to show how happy the children looked.

[47:43] Susan Blackwell: And the deception worked.

[47:45] Laura Camien: In the final report of the Red Cross delegation, it read that Theresienstadt looked like a normal provincial town where the elegantly dressed women all had silk stockings, scarves, and stylish handbags.

[47:57] Susan Blackwell: They also wrote that Theresienstadt is a final destination camp and that people who come there are not sent elsewhere.

[48:03] Laura Camien: But in fact, by the time of their visit, 68,000 people had already been shipped from there to death camps.

[48:12] Susan Blackwell: Our little trumpeter, Paul Sanfort, acknowledged the Nazis did convince the world, but they only convinced the world because the world wanted to be convinced.

[48:22] Laura Camien: It was easier.

[48:31] Susan Blackwell: Those who stayed behind, like Ella, watched as their friends and fellow cast members were herded into the trains.

[48:37] Laura Camien: And for those who stayed in Theresienstadt, it meant learning new parts all the time, which wasn't a problem because everyone knew the opera by heart.

[48:43] Susan Blackwell: But by the end of 1944, performances stopped abruptly because there was hardly anyone left.

[49:12] Laura Camien: And they were so talented, so many wonderful children among them, and promising children.

[49:18] Susan Blackwell: That's the pity of it. Children that would have become poets and artists, and so many of them.

[49:28] Laura Camien: And they are all gone for nothing.

[49:33] Susan Blackwell: Of the children who passed through Theresienstadt, approximately 90% eventually perished.

[49:39] Laura Camien: Only 132 survived.

[49:44] Susan Blackwell: Ella's co-star Hans Triklinger, the young boy who played Brundibar, was sent to the gas chambers in 1944.

[49:52] Laura Camien: The same year, Brundibar composer Hans Krause was deported to the concentration camp Auschwitz, where he was immediately executed.

[50:01] Susan Blackwell: Paul Sanfort, our trumpet player, survived the Holocaust, and he lived to be 77.

[50:10] Laura Camien: In the last years of his life, he composed an overture to Brundibar because it had never had one.

[50:17] Susan Blackwell: And his piece, Noxhub, written for speaker and musical ensemble based on his own text, expresses the thoughts of a hungry child queuing up for food in the Theresienstadt camp.

[50:29] Laura Camien: On May 3rd, 1945, Theresienstadt was turned over to the International Red Cross and again became Theresienstadt.

[50:36] Susan Blackwell: Ella had spent three and a half years at the camp and was almost 15 when she was freed.

[50:41] Laura Camien: After the liberation, they returned to Prague, but Ella eventually moved to Israel, where she served in the army and in Israel's equivalent of the Secret Service.

[50:51] Susan Blackwell: In Israel, she met her husband, Leopold, and eventually they moved to New York with their children.

[50:57] Laura Camien: The bonds of friendship and survival she formed stayed with Ella her entire life.

[51:02] Susan Blackwell: Throughout her life, she searched for her remaining girlhood friends.

[51:05] Laura Camien: And in 1986, Ella and her friends reunited in Prague, and they agreed to meet at least once every year.

[51:13] Susan Blackwell: And they kept their promise until Ella was the last surviving cast member of Theresienstadt's Brundibar.

[51:22] Laura Camien: And there they are.

[51:47] Susan Blackwell: And there she is.

[51:49] Laura Camien: She felt it was her duty as a free survivor to share the background of Brundibar.

[51:54] Susan Blackwell: And as long as she could speak to children, she could let them know what it meant and that there was always hope.

[52:01] Laura Camien: Ella passed away on March 30th, 2018.

[52:04] Susan Blackwell: Her life was a defiant message of hope amid destruction.

[52:08] Laura Camien: She always loved music and thought it could not only elevate regular life but also represent political resistance.

[52:16] Susan Blackwell: So what do we make of it?

[52:19] Laura Camien: And what have people made of it?

[52:22] Susan Blackwell: In 2008, Ella Weisberger released the children's book, The Cat with the Yellow Star, Coming of Age in Theresienstadt, co-written with Susan Goldman Rubin, Tony Kushner, who wrote Angels in America, and Maurice Sendak, who wrote Where the Wild Things Are, teamed up to produce an illustrated children's book of Brundibar.

[52:42] Laura Camien: And they also created a new English libretto for Brundibar.

[52:46] Susan Blackwell: And Sendak co-designed the production.

[52:49] Laura Camien: Ella Weisberger once said, "We performed this opera at Theresienstadt. Only a few of us survived. I lost many of my friends. But when we were performing Brundibar, we forgot where we were. We forgot all of our troubles."

[53:03] Susan Blackwell: Music was part of our resistance against the Nazis.

[53:06] Laura Camien: Music, art, good teachers and friends means survival.

[53:13] Susan Blackwell: I am so sparked by the spark. I know it is a dark spark, but the power of art to restore dignity and hope, and the power of music to bolster the human spirit.

[53:28] Laura Camien: That's right.

[53:29] Susan Blackwell: I'm sparked by that. I am sparked as a creative activist.

[53:33] Laura Camien: And I have to say, I'm also sparked by the kindness of Ella Weisberger.

[53:38] Susan Blackwell: Like by all accounts, by all accounts, the people that she spoke with and taught her students.

[53:44] Laura Camien: She was just love and kindness personified after having been through so much.

[53:51] Susan Blackwell: So I'm so sparked by her way of being. So full of love, so full of goodness.

[53:58] Laura Camien: So that is my spark that is Brundibar.

[54:03] Susan Blackwell: And now the tissues.

[54:15] Laura Camien: It's painful to hear that story.

[54:18] Susan Blackwell: Um, but I love the takeaway from it, the meaning behind all of that to acknowledge the power of art, the power of these stories that we put together and telling them and what it means to each person who's involved.

[54:34] Laura Camien: I, you know, we talk about this all the time on the podcast and in life and in private, but life is, you know, life is a mixed bag of nuts, right?

[54:44] Susan Blackwell: And sometimes it is awesome and sometimes it is naw some, which is the opposite of awesome.

[54:50] Laura Camien: And if we're, if we are to live through these experiences, at the very least, one possibility is that we get to make something beautiful out of it.

[54:50] Susan Blackwell: We get to make something beautiful out of this.

[55:03] Laura Camien: And Camille, I cannot wait. This is just like the, like you were saying about Ludwig, and this is just like the highest level.

[55:11] Susan Blackwell: There are so many sparks in this.

[55:13] Laura Camien: That's right.

[55:14] Susan Blackwell: And I feel like this could be, this could spark music, this could spark choreography, this could spark certainly literature, like, uh, documentary, just like sparks when sparks.

[55:25] Laura Camien: Like you had asked the question of, you know, do the children know, you know, what they're, what it all represents.

[55:33] Susan Blackwell: Then you talked about the performance where they, you know, sort of like extra loaded because now we're doing the performance to pretend to sell an idea.

[55:43] Laura Camien: Yeah.

[55:44] Susan Blackwell: I wondered if they knew really what was going on in that moment.

[55:49] Laura Camien: You said it was extra tense, but I think they really knew the pain of having to perform something to convince people of something that you're okay.

[56:00] Susan Blackwell: I can't with that. That's like to me, that moment is so rich with emotional. There's a layer. There's an interesting spark because they talked about how the Red Cross delegation, I think they only sent like two people to cover this whole grounds. And they said they attempted to talk to one person who was in prison there who would not speak. And they talked to the mayor. I'm using quotes if you're listening on a podcast. They talked to the mayor who had a black eye. So they were clearly just like terrified and coerced. It's very dramatic. Like it is um, it's very fraught, but I can really when I was reading this and researching this, I could really picture, I could just picture a lot of art and work that will hopefully be continue to be made out of that. Inspired by this.

[56:54] Laura Camien: Yeah.

[56:55] Susan Blackwell: But we have to set this dark spark to the side.

[57:00] Laura Camien: We do.

[57:00] Susan Blackwell: I just have to acknowledge like Wagner's family went on to invite Hitler to the theater to the opera how the festival house. They his children became members of the Nazi Party. I'm not, I'm not, I'm not kidding.

[57:15] Laura Camien: Oh no.

[57:16] Susan Blackwell: Um, I just didn't want that to go by if there are people who you know know like more about Wagner and then your story, and we surprise each other with our spark, so we don't know. So this is really amazing at how many places where this our themes have touched upon the world of nationalism and Nazis.

[57:38] Laura Camien: Wow.

[57:38] Susan Blackwell: We've brought the room down, let's bring it back up.

[57:40] Laura Camien: Let's bring it back up.

[57:41] Susan Blackwell: Let's bring the room back up. We have someone here who could help us bring it back up.

[57:44] Laura Camien: I think we do.

[57:45] Susan Blackwell: I had put it on his shoulders, but we're gonna do it. Um, our guest is a full-on star here at the Metropolitan Opera, where audiences can hear him sing the titular role in the opera Akhnaten through December 7th, and on November 23rd, live in HD at a movie theater near you. Won't you all give it up? The warmest spark file welcome for Anthony Roth Costanzo.

[58:20] Anthony Roth Costanzo: Like a game show when you come down the stairs if they call your name and then you have to come downstairs like prices right.

[58:27] Susan Blackwell: Prizes, prizes, prizes.

[58:29] Anthony Roth Costanzo: This prize is right.

[58:30] Susan Blackwell: We are so happy that you are joining us on The Spark File.

[58:33] Anthony Roth Costanzo: Thank you for having me.

[58:35] Susan Blackwell: But before we kick it off, we have a little price of admission, real quick. You have to tell us a creative risk that you have taken recently, something that required bravery, or something that you attempted, but wasn't perfect, but it was progress.

[58:52] Anthony Roth Costanzo: Um that's a really great question. There are lots of things coming to mind. Some of them we'll talk about later.

[58:59] Susan Blackwell: Okay.

[58:59] Anthony Roth Costanzo: But um but one recently uh I was asked by Opera Philadelphia to do a cabaret. And you know, when I was a kid, I was on Broadway. I moved from North Carolina where I grew up to New York to be on Broadway.

[59:12] Susan Blackwell: So it's somewhere in my bones.

[59:14] Anthony Roth Costanzo: What was the Broadway show you were doing?

[59:16] Anthony Roth Costanzo: Well, I did a bunch of things. I did the National Tour of Falsettos, Sound of Music with Marie Osmond, the Christmas Carol with Van Burrine, okay.

[59:24] Susan Blackwell: Now back to your risk.

[59:24] Anthony Roth Costanzo: Yeah, yeah. Uh I was on this stage, and um I thought, what can I do that will sort of link the cabaret music and the opera music? And I had this idea to make my debut as a baritone because I'm a counter-tenor and I sing in this very high voice, but I also could sing and I do really badly as a baritone.

[59:47] Susan Blackwell: Whoa!

[59:49] Laura Camien: Risky.

[59:50] Anthony Roth Costanzo: That's great and exciting. And so I wound up doing a duet from The Marriage of Figaro, in which the Count and Susanna sing in alternation, but never really together. So I sang both.

[59:59] Susan Blackwell: Oh wow.

[1:00:07] Anthony Roth Costanzo: And I got a standing ovation.

[1:00:10] Laura Camien: Well can I say?

[1:00:11] Anthony Roth Costanzo: Who recorded it? Where could anywhere someone could hear that I need to know?

[1:00:17] Anthony Roth Costanzo: I have to say, strangely enough, you were saying a risk that paid off or didn't. I thought to myself, is that gonna work? But I just got a call last week, and apparently the Guggenheim Museum was at this performance, and they've asked me to come do it at the Guggenheim in January.

[1:00:30] Susan Blackwell: So my gosh, that's I'd say it's all right.

[1:00:34] Anthony Roth Costanzo: Yeah, I guess it worked. So now I gotta do it again, which I'm sort of scared about.

[1:00:38] Laura Camien: Wow, wow.

[1:00:39] Anthony Roth Costanzo: Risk for two. You are officially admitted to The Spark File. Welcome.

[1:00:42] Susan Blackwell: Anthony, for people who don't know you, how do you identify creatively?

[1:00:48] Anthony Roth Costanzo: I would say that I am uh an opera singer, and contained within that very importantly, is an actor because that's at the base of all opera singing. Um, and a producer because now I've started producing a lot of things and making things happen. So that's what I would say.

[1:01:06] Laura Camien: This is fantastic.

[1:01:08] Susan Blackwell: Wow.

[1:01:09] Susan Blackwell: You are like a vocal superhero.

[1:01:12] Anthony Roth Costanzo: Yeah.

[1:01:12] Laura Camien: Shh, don't you are cash?

[1:01:15] Anthony Roth Costanzo: You are.

[1:01:15] Susan Blackwell: Could you tell us a little bit about your superhero origin story? When did you realize you could sing?

[1:01:20] Anthony Roth Costanzo: Uh uh, I was about six years old taking piano lessons with my piano teacher, and she was trying to get me to read the music, and I was not doing so well with my fingers. So she said, Let's try doing it with your voice. And then I loved singing. And then she suggested we sing some Gershwin. I sang some Gershwin and I loved that. And then I went and did um an audition for a play, and that's what got it all started.

[1:01:45] Anthony Roth Costanzo: And I was a boy soprano. But uh when I was about eleven, I'd done 10 or 15 plays locally, and I said to my parents, look, I gotta go to New York and I gotta do it for real. And they're I was 11.

[1:01:57] Laura Camien: And parent and your parents were like, Yeah, sure, sounds good.

[1:02:01] Anthony Roth Costanzo: They're both psychologists, so I got really lucky.

[1:02:06] Susan Blackwell: I was like, I need to meet your parents. Let's have your parents on the podcast.

[1:02:09] Anthony Roth Costanzo: Yeah, they're true. I'm really wondering. They're very understated, and they just said, Okay. And so I went and um I was doing Broadway and plays and things like that.

[1:02:18] Anthony Roth Costanzo: And then when I was 13, someone said, Would you come do an opera? And I'd never done an opera. But it was Benjamin Britten's The Turn of the Screw. Very difficult.

[1:02:25] Laura Camien: Spooky.

[1:02:27] Anthony Roth Costanzo: Spooky.

[1:02:28] Susan Blackwell: And also just in time for Halloween.

[1:02:30] Anthony Roth Costanzo: Yeah, indeed. Ghosts and importantly, child abuse. And I say that I know that sounds wrong. It sounds wrong. But I say that because my parents, who were both psychologists, would take me out to rehearsals, and it they were in New Jersey. We were at the New Jersey Opera Festival, and we would talk, and all of a sudden I was doing a thing that was about what they studied. You know, they studied post-traumatic stress disorder and trauma and all that.

[1:02:58] Laura Camien: Well, yeah, around, you know, but uh but it was really interesting because it connected all of us and it engaged me in an intellectual way, because they were both professors in this art form. And then I found a way of expressing myself in opera that was much deeper than what I had been able to find in musical theater.

[1:03:15] Anthony Roth Costanzo: This is not to knock musical theater at all. I love it.

[1:03:18] Laura Camien: That's okay.

[1:03:18] Anthony Roth Costanzo: But you know, it's a different kind of expression. And so I loved that, and that got me started on opera. And when I was doing that, someone said, Hey, I think you've gone through puberty. Are you maybe a counter tenor?

[1:03:30] Anthony Roth Costanzo: And I said, What is a counter tenor?

[1:03:32] Laura Camien: You phone it.

[1:03:33] Anthony Roth Costanzo: And they said it's a guy who sings in that high register, and you just keep going. And so I just kept going and I haven't turned back yet.

[1:03:42] Laura Camien: Was there a moment that you were cognizant of that um preference towards opera? Or did it sort of flow naturally towards that?

[1:03:50] Anthony Roth Costanzo: Well, I would say after I did The Turn of the Screw, I got a call to perform as the Shepherd Boy in Tosca, starring Luciano Pavarotti.

[1:04:01] Laura Camien: Wow.

[1:04:02] Anthony Roth Costanzo: And so I then I went into this opera house, and I remember being in my little shepherd boy costume behind the curtain at the end of the opera, and Pavarotti was in charge, and he was sending people out, one, two, three, no, you go now, you go, you know, none of the bowels were choreographed. And then it was just me and him. And he didn't look at me, and I thought, I'm probably not gonna get a bow because you know and then he put his hand out and he took me out with him for his bow.

[1:04:31] Laura Camien: Oh now that was very smart because the audience went wild, you know, Pavarotti and I knew what he was doing.

[1:04:38] Anthony Roth Costanzo: But I thought, oh my gosh, you know, you get this ovation and you're at the opera house with Pavarotti, and I thought, I like opera. I think I could do this.

[1:04:46] Laura Camien: Yeah, it feels pretty good.

[1:04:50] Susan Blackwell: So how did you how's your voice today? Would you be willing for people who are listening who don't know what counter tenor means, just like give us a tiny taste?

[1:04:59] Anthony Roth Costanzo: Sure, sure. I um I just came from a sitzproba, which is means sit and try in German.

[1:05:06] Laura Camien: Yes.

[1:05:09] Anthony Roth Costanzo: And we sat and we sure tried. But um it's uh it's a rehearsal with the orchestra. Anyway, I sing most I speak in my chest voice, but the head voice, which is like a falsetto.

[1:05:21] Anthony Roth Costanzo: Oh, he's backing up, ladies and back away from backing.

[1:05:24] Anthony Roth Costanzo: No, my technique is like, oh that's the range that I sing in generally.

[1:05:33] Laura Camien: I am amazing.

[1:05:35] Anthony Roth Costanzo: I am literally feeling you.

[1:05:37] Susan Blackwell: Oh good vibrations are amazing.

[1:05:40] Susan Blackwell: So you're starring in the Philip Glass opera Akhnaten on stage at the Metropolitan Opera.

[1:05:46] Anthony Roth Costanzo: That is so fancy.

[1:05:47] Susan Blackwell: But real quick, just real real quick, can you just tell me everything we need to know about Akhnaten so that we can sing it and what's exciting for me and for students, there's this fascination with ancient Egypt, and it's all curricular for us, you know, at some point in middle school, even into high school. And I I'd never gotten the Egypt bug until we started this production, and now I'm totally obsessed because there's so much interesting material, and there are so many ways to relate it to our contemporary world.

[1:06:16] Anthony Roth Costanzo: So basically, we're in 1352 to 1325 BC, something like that. Um, and this is the Amarna period, which was Akhnaten's period. Just to give you context, this is 3,000 years ago, 200 years before Moses, so a long, long time ago. And you have all of this Egyptian society for hundreds of years has been the same with many, many gods. And Akhnaten becomes Pharaoh and shortly thereafter says, you know what? I'm looking at the sun, and I think that God is the sun, which gives life to the grass, and grass gives life to the cattle, and cattle give life to us. So this is the source of all life, and that should be God.

[1:06:55] Anthony Roth Costanzo: And that God is the unification of man and woman. And it dictates how we should be represented in art, more realistically, not as these stick figures, but with all the curves that we have, that man and woman should be represented in art on equal footing with their family on their laps, as opposed to this more formal way of representing nobility. And he also built a new city. He united upper and lower Egypt, brought them together in a city that was called Amarna and a new palace.

[1:07:24] Anthony Roth Costanzo: And this happened in an unprecedented amount of time, by which I mean very, very fast. And so he changed the way that writing was done. It was done in clay with little sticks, you would make carvings, but he changed the method by which it was done. He changed so much of society in these 17 years, and was by our modern words and lenses progressive. And then, after 17 years, we don't know what happens.

[1:07:53] Anthony Roth Costanzo: All we know is that he disappears. And that every statue of him is destroyed, every painting of him is torn up, and every trace that he's left behind is erased, and what he has created is reversed. So there were clearly people who didn't want this. One example of these people would be there were certain priests who were paid to make sacrifices to the hundreds and hundreds of gods by the nobility. Now, when those hundreds of gods are less important because of this new God, that's right. They don't get their money about that.

[1:08:28] Laura Camien: Yeah.

[1:08:29] Anthony Roth Costanzo: So it changes. So there were certainly people who were opposed to it, but Akhnaten also might have been kind of insular, focused on the family, focused on what he was creating in Egypt. And he might have been seen not as such a progressive in a positive sense, but as a kind of cult leader who created this new religion, who tore everyone from what they knew and said, Do it my way?

[1:08:54] Anthony Roth Costanzo: So one question this opera asks and doesn't necessarily answer, but you have to answer is was Akhnaten good or bad? Very simple. Was he the visionary, the person who solved these problems, who was creating a way forward for society? Or was he this horrible dictator? And what's interesting, what's as interesting as the primary source material that is in the opera, the fragments of history that that are connected by Philip Glass's music, is all of the interpretations subsequently when Akhnaten was discovered in the 19th century that people like Freud uh write a book called Moses and Monotheism, where he posits that Akhnaten and the loss of Akhnaten is what inspired Moses to create his monotheistic religion and therefore the genesis of Christianity, Judaism, and the Islamic faith all come from Akhnaten.

[1:09:52] Anthony Roth Costanzo: Whoa. And was Aknaten the original father who we lost and we search for? And is the search for the father, the basis of Western religion? And is it the basis of human psychology in some sense, this edible thing? So Aknaten has a lot projected as a lot of going on.

[1:10:13] Susan Blackwell: Yes.

[1:10:14] Anthony Roth Costanzo: But to all Susan's struggling with this. Let's give her a second. You know, the Nazis were also into this sun worship. So they appropriated Achan. What they tried to prove that Aknaten had Aryan origin. Shut it down. And isn't it interesting that Aknaten gave his speeches from the window of appearances, which is actually a scene in the opera, which was the second level balcony of the palace? And there we find Hitler giving his speeches from the balcony. So it's rather chilling to think of the different people.

[1:11:08] Laura Camien: Sure, you were Oxford was involved.

[1:11:12] Anthony Roth Costanzo: And they said, Well, you know, if he saw God as the unification of man and woman, and he was trying to make himself closer to God, maybe he just became more like a woman. And I said, So he was trans. And they said, Yeah, that's what we would call it today. He took on these attributes of a woman to be closer to his God. So now, as part of the queer community, can we appropriate him in that? So all of the interpretations of Aknaten are as interesting as the primary source material.

[1:11:45] Susan Blackwell: Oh my god. And that's why he's referred to as the first individual, the first person to have these singular ideas and to inspire our culture. Can we ask you a little bit about how it feels the performance-wise for you? We know what it looks like on the outside. It is literally gold leafed, it's dazzling, it's glorious. Can you tell us for reals though? How does it feel on the inside to get to play this character?

[1:12:13] Anthony Roth Costanzo: Well, I think it is really interesting again from a psychological point of view, and as an actor, which is at the base of all singing and really has to drive the notes as they come out of your body. What did he feel? That's what I have to think about. I have to understand the context in which he existed and what everyone thought about him, but then what did he feel? How why did he have this idea? And that's what I think about as I as I get put into these crowns and these robes, and I'm moving very, very slowly with very repetitive music by Philip Glass, which is incredibly beautiful, but needs to be charged with meaning.

[1:12:51] Laura Camien: I have...

[1:12:52] Anthony Roth Costanzo: And I just interrupt, sometimes very slowly, yes, and sometimes super naked lately. Super naked, yes, I am naked, so completely waxed and my head shaved and totally naked. And there's been a lot of discussion about this.

[1:13:06] Susan Blackwell: I bet why is he naked?

[1:13:10] Anthony Roth Costanzo: Well, one thing is it's not at all sexualized, but rather it's a part of a ritual which comes from the Book of the Dead. And as such, if you can imagine this, I enter the stage, and this really connects to what you're saying about what's in my head. And I have to let all artifice go. If there's even any tension in my body when I appear completely naked, the audience is nervous. Looking at each other. If I can look them in the eye, completely released, completely with conviction, um, they can't breathe. And from that moment, it's like a pact with the audience that we are gonna have this artistic journey together.

[1:13:50] Susan Blackwell: And you wouldn't believe it because it's never happened, especially at a place like the Met before. I don't think ever full frontal nudity for a male has happened, especially on this scale, but I don't think ever.

[1:14:01] Laura Camien: Rock on and rock on Met.

[1:14:03] Anthony Roth Costanzo: Yeah, I should say this though. I don't think that the nudity is actually going to be. What you'll realize is it becomes such a ritual and such a part of a stage picture that it doesn't change things. But to answer your question, as I go through that, I'm incredibly vulnerable. And that vulnerability of a 17-year-old boy taking over a whole country.

[1:14:38] Laura Camien: Right.

[1:14:38] Anthony Roth Costanzo: And then a few years later, changing everything about that country is kind of remarkable to see him go both from a young male naked body into a pharaoh with robes who controls a whole country, and then later in the opera into a woman, we see breasts come into, we see the body change. We see him take on these feminine attributes throughout the course of the opera. So we see all of these transformations.

[1:15:08] Susan Blackwell: Can I just touch on one thing? You spoke about a moment where you're aware that you're causing the audience to not be able to breathe. That to me, and then you described it as vulnerable. And I was just like, wow, the paradox in that is that when you described it, I thought that must be so powerful to know that everyone is literally breathless.

[1:15:37] Anthony Roth Costanzo: It's interest that's a really interesting point. And I think that there's a certain power to the connection.

[1:15:45] Laura Camien: Yeah, yeah.

[1:15:46] Anthony Roth Costanzo: But rather than me asserting my will over the audience, it's me feeling their energy and trying to meet it. Because I want the audience to come to me. I don't want them to sit back in their chair and go, oh, I am receiving a performance. They actually have to participate in it. And they have to participate with their breath, with their energy. And I don't want to sound like some you know crazy healer or voodoo person, but it is true that the magic of the theater and the texture of the air in the live theater is unlike anything we get from watching a screen. And that is because there is this connection, and every moment that I'm on stage, I'm trying to find a way to connect with at least one person in that audience, even if someone else has tuned out or fallen asleep, which is great.

We all come in and out of that. And in fact, I have a good friend who is new to the opera and said to me, um, one of my favorite parts of going to the opera is the moment when I wake up and I realize I'm at the opera.

[1:17:05] Susan Blackwell: This is amazing.

[1:17:05] Anthony Roth Costanzo: I love you. Is there anything creative that you know that you need to do before it before you're done?

[1:17:16] Laura Camien: In life?

[1:17:17] Anthony Roth Costanzo: In life, personally, yeah. Um, well, that's a great question. Certainly, I feel um that this creative art form of opera, why are we spending so much money and so much time and so much effort doing it? And I think about that a lot. Then I go into a school in the Bronx with kids, and I work with these middle schoolers, and I don't say to them, uh, okay, so I want you to know the story, and I want you to know the words, and I want you to understand what a counter tenor is. Instead, I just say, What emotions have you been dealing with lately? And we talk about that. And then if they say they're sad, we talk about some reasons they're sad, amazing things come out, and then I say, okay, now I'm gonna sing an aria that's about sadness.

That's all you need to know. Maybe in a different language, I may be singing like a girl, you never, you know, it doesn't really matter. And I start singing and they all start laughing and they all start, you know, going, oh, it's too loud, and uh. And then about two minutes in, they quiet down. About three minutes in, I see tears. And then I think if these people who have never heard opera before and who have no no point of access other than this one little thing we've given them, have that connection to the primal thing, which is the human voice, it's important. And we're living in a world in which there is no empathy. You know, there's we are not understanding the plight of others in the way that we should.

And so when we see stories that allow us to feel empathy for good people, for bad people, to think about these big issues that we don't encounter enough in our lives. We read constant news stories and they go right past us. If we can use opera as a way to see these things with a little bit of distance but also with beauty, then it changes how we interact with the world. So I think that's important.

[1:19:11] Susan Blackwell: So what do I need to do in my life before I'm done?

[1:19:14] Anthony Roth Costanzo: I need to bring new audiences to this art form. Can I do that as a performer? Yes. Can I do that as a producer? Yes. As someone who runs things as someone who educates, sure. So my goal and my mission has been to create projects in all different ways. Sometimes as an educator, sometimes as an innovator, working with fashion designers, working with filmmakers, working with opera directors, working with kids. And how can we get these people interested and excited about this art form, which ultimately can help make the world a better place?

[1:19:57] Susan Blackwell: Can you tell us something, a person or thing or an idea that is sparking you lately?

[1:20:04] Anthony Roth Costanzo: That's a good question. What's an idea that is sparking me lately? So this spring, um, a movie came out of Aretha Franklin making her her sixth album, I think, Grace. Now, Aretha had been at the top of her game, you know, respect, all of that had come out, and then she decided she was gonna record gospel music and she was gonna do it in a church for her community, and Sidney Pollock was gonna film just you know from the side with his little camera, and they lost all the film and it got all messed up until they found it. They found it and it came out and it's called Amazing Grace.

[1:20:47] Laura Camien: Oh wow.

[1:20:48] Anthony Roth Costanzo: Spark Sparks, Sparks Spark, and you watch her, and what she does is the work, as we call it. She's not there to perform, she's not there to, you know, be to show anything. She's there and she's with her community, and she's with her this incredible gospel choir and these incredible gospel leaders, and it's all shared. And you realize that you're there's no, you know, it's lovely when people say you're a star, but really it's we're a community of people doing this, and I can't. That's what's so wonderful about opera. I can't do it without everybody. Um, and it's not my performance, it's our collective performance. I look at the conductor, I look at my cast mates, I see the bows of the orchestra, you know, poking their way into my line of vision, and I know that it's with just my voice, it's nothing. So um it that was really inspiring for me to see that.

[1:21:45] Susan Blackwell: I love it, and I love you.

[1:21:48] Anthony Roth Costanzo: Special, special thanks to our very special guest. Anthony Roth Costanzo!

[1:21:51] Susan Blackwell: Thank you. We want to thank everyone here at the Met, Peter Gelb, Gillian Brewerly, Will Berger, Marsha Drummond, Dan Marshall, Kamala Shelling. That is it. We hope this put another bunch of sparks in your file. And remember, if there's a spark you'd like us to explore, or if you've taken a spark and you fanned it into a creative flame and you'd like to share that, or if you'd like us to come rock the Sparkfile podcast or workshop at your institution of culture, learning, or business, give us a holler. You can email us at the sparkfile at gmail.com or submit it through our website.

[1:22:18] Laura Camien: That's right.

[1:22:23] Susan Blackwell: These fools got a website. It's the sparkfile.com. We'll even take your feedback, but you know the price of admission. First, you gotta share a creative risk that you've taken recently. And be sure to subscribe to this podcast wherever you get your podcast.

[1:22:36] Laura Camien: Subscribe.

[1:22:37] Susan Blackwell: Rate, five star review it. If you like this podcast, share it with people you love. If you don't like it, it's okay. We're just gonna keep doing our thing and shake, shake, shake in our creative booty. If something tickles your fancy and gets your creative juices flowing, we're writing you a forever permission slip to make that thing that's been knocking at your door.

[1:22:58] Laura Camien: It's your turn to take a spark and fan it into a flame. You gotta conceive it. You gotta believe it. You gotta talk sing like a boss and recitative it. You gotta take it and make it.

[1:23:24] Anthony Roth Costanzo: I dump it in the spark files.

[1:23:29] Laura Camien: Could be something that I wanna make or how I wanna be.

[1:23:34] Anthony Roth Costanzo: I pump it in the spark files.

[1:23:37] Laura Camien: Spark.

[1:23:39] Anthony Roth Costanzo: I jump into my spark files.

[1:23:44] Laura Camien: Let's open up the spark files.