This transcript was automatically generated and might contain errors.

[0:37] Laura Camien: Welcome to the spark file, your one stop treasure chest for creative inspiration. I'm Laura Camien.

[0:42] Susan Blackwell: And I'm Susan Blackwell. If you're joining us for the first time, welcome. If you're joining us for the 57th time, welcome.

[0:49] Laura Camien: You may be asking yourself, what exactly is a spark file? Where do I get one? What do I file in it? These are such good questions. We have got such good answers.

[0:57] Susan Blackwell: A spark file is a place where you consistently collect all your inspirations and fascinations. Here's the deal. We are makers who make all kinds of things. If you're like us and you're making stuff all the time, or if you want to be making stuff all the time, you know that the wellspring of inspiration can sometimes run a little dry.

[1:15] Laura Camien: So we're on the lookout for fresh ideas, images, and inspiration that spark our creativity and pique our curiosity, things that inspire us to get up off of our asses and make things like this podcast.

[1:27] Susan Blackwell: Or alternate reality retellings of stories we thought we knew. Or a quest that beckons hundreds of thousands to join in an adventure.

[1:38] Laura Camien: Ooh. Every episode, we're gonna reach into the spark file and exchange some sparks. And from time to time, we're gonna talk to some folks who spark us as well. And if you're not careful, you just might get your brain teased.

[1:50] Susan Blackwell: So without further ado, let's open up the spark pile.

[1:55] Laura Camien: Hi, Cam.

[1:56] Susan Blackwell: Hi, Blackwell.

[1:59] Laura Camien: Hello Black Wells. I'm so happy to be here with you. Sparking it this morning. Excited.

[2:05] Susan Blackwell: I look forward to these sessions with you for days. I really do. I just think it's so exciting. This is the so much. I mean, we try to keep it light and fun, but so much research and writing and preparation goes into this moment where we can just like set it free and leave it all on the dance floor.

[2:24] Laura Camien: And I love it.

[2:25] Susan Blackwell: That's right. It's super, super fun. And then half the time when we're talking otherwise, I'm like, oh God, I want so much to tell you about things that I've discovered and found. I'm like, I can't. We just have to keep it in the safe per like we talk a lot about our personal lives. We don't talk a lot about potential sparkage.

[2:42] Laura Camien: You know what I'm realizing? Like, I know there's a term for it. It's that delayed gratification.

[2:48] Susan Blackwell: That's what it is. We're training ourselves in delayed gratification.

[2:52] Laura Camien: Practice. We all need that. We all need to know. Are you ready to get your spark on?

[2:56] Susan Blackwell: You kidding me? Let's cut you ready. I believe you're up first.

[3:00] Laura Camien: I'm a leave. I can fly. Oh, R. Kelly. I started watching that. Surviving R. Kelly. Have you watched that?

[3:07] Susan Blackwell: No, I can't. I can't.

[3:09] Laura Camien: I don't blame you. It's it's pretty like densely just hardcore. It's just like the hits keep on coming. There is not a lot of lightness in that.

[3:22] Susan Blackwell: I'm it as justifiably so it's a very heavy story and a very heavy topic.

[3:27] Laura Camien: That's right. And I feel like what I already know about it is all I need to know.

[3:32] Susan Blackwell: Yeah.

[3:33] Laura Camien: Um I will say this. The one thing that I find very uplifting, the people who had the courage to come forward and really talk on the record to the filmmakers, but also to the authorities.

[3:46] Susan Blackwell: That's right. That's significant. And I heard an interview with the filmmaker. Her name's Dream Hampton.

[3:55] Laura Camien: And I loved, I loved what she had to say. I thought she was great. I just thought I was very inspired by her. And I I don't know, just her thoughtfulness. I just thought she was tremendous.

[4:10] Susan Blackwell: I think um the persistence and like perseverance of all of the people who are trying to tell their that story. I didn't mean to be cavalier when I said I know all I need to know. I just mean um the grim details. I, you know, I I believe these women and just want their story to get out and be heard more.

[4:33] Laura Camien: Yeah. But yeah, it bothers me just how hard it is for their voices to rise above and be heard by anyone because we're so we just live in a culture we're so smitten by shame and it is so interesting to me. But how do we get here?

[4:50] Susan Blackwell: Oh, because I believe I can fly.

[4:53] Laura Camien: That's right. Look what you did. Look at the dark spark tangent I took it on. Um, but let's let's jump into this. Let's jump. This is not a dark spark.

[5:01] Susan Blackwell: Oh my god, not a dark spark.

[5:04] Laura Camien: So um, this was my spark. We haul come on. Come on. This is my spark. Wait, this is my spark. We all have an Indiana Jones hidden inside of us.

[5:18] Susan Blackwell: Oh we want some adventure. Yeah. Sources for the spark include a great article by Julia Glum on Money.com, our good friend Wikipedia, articles on Atlas Obscura.com by Eric Grundhauser and Shoshi Parks, and a piece on KQRE.com by a reporter named Jeannie Wynne.

[5:37] Laura Camien: Um, so this is an OG spark that I first encountered when I was about 10 years old. And my brother, John, hi John, was about 11 years old. We read somewhere, and it might have been like National Geographic or Smithsonian magazine or parade magazine. One of those things that we had in our house, we read about a book called Masquerade by a person named Kit Williams, and it totally seized our imagination.

[6:04] Susan Blackwell: Any of those words mean anything to you?

[6:07] Laura Camien: Well, I was struck by the fact that of course you had like the go-to, the National Geographic. We had a set of encyclopedia that be that's like it was a source of entertainment as a child. Like we're back in the day when we didn't have 500 cable channels. When I was bored, I would always there was a there was a volume of the Encyclopedia Britannica that had plastic the pages weren't paper, there were just a few pages that were plastic, they were transparent, and they had like the bodies and the muscle.

[6:38] Susan Blackwell: And I loved going and looking at those pages.

[6:41] Laura Camien: Oh my god. That was some deep boredom, though.

[6:43] Susan Blackwell: No, we had we had a copy of the the JFK report.

[6:48] Laura Camien: What was that? The recruiter?

[6:52] Susan Blackwell: Zap Ruder. Zap Ruder is the film.

[6:53] Laura Camien: That's the film. So this was the report, and it was like a book. And so I remember laying on the floor looking at like this is so morbid. These were not supposed to be dark sparks, but let's mention this. I would look at the photos, like they have that the still frames of like when the bullet hit his head, and you would just land it on backing when you were bored.

[7:16] Susan Blackwell: Yeah, as a kid. Look at this. Did it scare you?

[7:20] Laura Camien: It didn't scare me, but I feel like that. And I originally, when I I was born on Long Island and I went to JFK Elementary School.

[7:30] Susan Blackwell: Yeah.

[7:30] Laura Camien: So a combination of very strange things lead me to believe like I feel like I have a connection to this family.

[7:36] Susan Blackwell: And I'm like, you don't. You don't. You had a book and you went to a school. That's magical thinking.

[7:42] Laura Camien: So we were obsessed with this book, Masquerade. And to the casual observer, masquerade just looked like a children's book with elaborate sort of illustrations and paintings.

[7:52] Susan Blackwell: But Masquerade wasn't just another beautiful children's book. It concealed clues to a treasure hunt that was said to lead seekers to a jeweled golden hair created and hidden somewhere in Britain by its author, Kit Williams.

[8:06] Laura Camien: What?

[8:07] Susan Blackwell: Yes. Wait, this was for children.

[8:09] Laura Camien: It was it looked like a children's book. It looked like a beautiful, very um uh elaborately illustrated slash painted picture book, but really it was it presented a set of clues that could lead you to a real life treasure.

[8:27] Susan Blackwell: I'm already deep into that fantasy. It is what a mind. Oh my god. But imagine you're a little kid and you're like, we could solve this, we could find this treasure. Let us go.

[8:40] Laura Camien: The igniting spark for Kit, the author, was a challenge that came from a publisher to do something that no one has ever done before with a picture book. Then Kit Williams set out to create this book of 15 detailed paintings that readers could study carefully rather than just flip through and discard.

[9:01] Susan Blackwell: So it was a way of getting people to engage. It was like a whole it was like a whole creation he made.

[9:08] Laura Camien: So smart.

[9:09] Susan Blackwell: Yeah. It was it was from what I can tell. Well, we'll get to it. But I think he might have been the first person to do something like this. Just specifically like this.

[9:18] Laura Camien: So the OG spark for Masquerade came when Kit Williams was a kid. He said, I recalled how as a child I had come across treasure hunts in which the puzzles were not exciting nor the treasures worth finding. So I decided to make a real treasure of gold, bury it in the ground, and paint real puzzles to lead people to it.

[9:39] Susan Blackwell: If I was to spend two years on 16 paintings for masquerade, I wanted them to mean something.

[9:44] Laura Camien: Oh my god. Isn't that something?

[9:46] Susan Blackwell: Oh my God. Um we'll post pictures of what masquerade looks like so you can see how elaborate these paintings are.

[9:55] Laura Camien: So the story follows a rabbit named Jack Hare, who seeks to carry a treasure from the moon, who's represented by a lady, to her love object, the sun, which is represented by a man. Reaching the sun, Jack finds that he has lost the treasure and the reader is left to discover its location somewhere in Britain.

[10:13] Susan Blackwell: Isn't this crazy? We were obsessed when we were little.

[10:18] Laura Camien: Oh my god. Along with creating the book, Williams crafted a hair from 18 karat gold and jewels in the form of this large filigree pendant on a chain. And he sealed the hair inside a ceramic, hair-shaped casket.

[10:33] Susan Blackwell: And that was to protect the prize from the soil, but it was also to foil attempts to locate the treasure with a metal detector.

[10:40] Laura Camien: Wait, what was it made of?

[10:42] Susan Blackwell: Ceramic.

[10:43] Laura Camien: Ceramic.

[10:44] Susan Blackwell: Shaped like a hair, containing this, you know, gold and gemstone encrusted hair pendant. And then he he said the casket was inscribed with the words, I am the keeper of the jewel of masquerade, which lies waiting safe inside me for you or eternity.

[11:03] Laura Camien: Oh. Isn't that crazy? I get it gives me chills.

[11:08] Susan Blackwell: You must have been freaking out as a child.

[11:11] Laura Camien: I remember my brother and I having a conversation where we were like, what could we figure this out? And did you? How far did you get? I need to know.

[11:22] Susan Blackwell: We probably spent a good quality 25 minutes of it.

[11:29] Laura Camien: I thought you were going to say like two summers.

[11:31] Susan Blackwell: We were probably like, and then we forgot about that and went and looked at the encyclopedia British.

[11:36] Laura Camien: So on August 7th, 1979, Williams and a witness secretly buried the hair's casket somewhere in Britain. Williams then announced that his forthcoming book contained all the clues necessary to decode the treasure's precise location in Britain within a few inches.

[11:54] Susan Blackwell: At that time, the only additional clue he provided was that the hair was buried on public property that could be easily accessed. And to ensure that all readers, including two little kids in rural Ohio, had an equal chance of winning. Williams also announced that he would confirm the first precisely correct answer sent to him by post.

[12:14] Laura Camien: So you didn't have to be in Britain to say you cracked the puzzle and claimed the prize. The book Masquerade sold hundreds of thousands of copies worldwide, many in the UK, but also in Australia, South Africa, West Germany, Japan, France, and the United States.

[12:33] Susan Blackwell: Wow.

[12:34] Laura Camien: Yeah. It's crazy. He really created a genre.

[12:39] Susan Blackwell: I could say like that's obviously that would create a phenomenon. I mean, now uh the the elf on the shelf and the those books that like encourage you like buying more things it's like strategic in it in its thinking.

[12:54] Laura Camien: I don't know enough about the sparks that are that created those, but I don't know if it was like a marketing plan. I don't know.

[12:59] Susan Blackwell: Exactly. Housewife in Nebraska who was like, I love this thing, I do it with my kids. I don't know what the answer is. But I love how he this was born out of something that he when he was little, he was like, Ugh, I wish this was more I wish this treasure was real. I wish this puzzle was better.

[13:16] Laura Camien: Yes.

[13:16] Susan Blackwell: And he was like, he kept that spark cooking for a long time. Like engage people in a genuine way, engage their minds through his artwork, through the stories, through the clues.

[13:28] Susan Blackwell: Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's legit. So solving masquerade, the complex solution involved you took the book, you had to draw lines from the eyes of the characters in the direction they were looking to their fingers, and that line then pointed towards letters in the book.

[13:52] Laura Camien: And then those letters would spell out the location of the golden hair, a spot marked by the shadow of a cross at noon.

[14:03] Susan Blackwell: What?

[14:04] Laura Camien: But the shadow only landed on this spot, like it was during two times a year.

[14:10] Susan Blackwell: It was it was tough.

[14:12] Laura Camien: There was no way a 10-year-old and an 11-year-old were gonna like put this one together.

[14:16] Susan Blackwell: Yeah.

[14:16] Laura Camien: You know what I'm saying?

[14:17] Susan Blackwell: Yeah.

[14:18] Laura Camien: In March 1982, Kit Williams received a sketch which he recognized as the first correct solution mailed to him.

[14:26] Susan Blackwell: No way.

[14:26] Laura Camien: He immediately phoned the sender and instructed him to dig for the hair.

[14:30] Laura Camien: He realized that the person who claimed to have cracked the treasure had not solved the puzzle in the intended manner, but appeared to have blundered into a lucky guess.

[14:47] Susan Blackwell: I think he I think what they sent was a crudely drawn map of the general area.

[14:53] Laura Camien: And he would take that as final answer.

[14:56] Susan Blackwell: He took it as final answer.

[14:57] Laura Camien: But very shortly after that person was awarded the prize, Kit Williams received the correct solution sent in by two physics teachers.

[15:06] Susan Blackwell: And it was then discovered that the original winner had not cracked the clues.

[15:11] Laura Camien: They had cheated.

[15:13] Susan Blackwell: How?

[15:14] Laura Camien: They had contact with a former live-in girlfriend of Kit Williams, the author of Masquerade.

[15:22] Susan Blackwell: Her name was Veronica Robertson.

[15:25] Laura Camien: And back in the day, when she was living with Kit Williams and he was like formulating this and making Masquerade, she learned the approximate physical location of the hair while remaining ignorant to the proper solution of the book's master riddle.

[15:40] Susan Blackwell: So the cheaters learned this information.

[15:43] Laura Camien: They drew a crude sketch of the location, which they then submitted to the author, and he acknowledged as the first correct answer.

[15:51] Susan Blackwell: Boo.

[15:52] Laura Camien: Boo.

[15:52] Susan Blackwell: Boo to cheating.

[15:53] Laura Camien: And he felt um, and Kit Williams, I think, was really betrayal bummed out about that.

[16:01] Susan Blackwell: Um, apparently, it's hard for me based on what I've read.

[16:05] Laura Camien: It sounds like the two physics teachers who really did figure it out through the clues, went there and even started to dig and didn't realize that they had actually found the casket of the hair, they didn't recognize it as the treasure.

[16:24] Susan Blackwell: Like they sort of discarded it in a pile of dirt.

[16:27] Laura Camien: And I think the winner went back and was like with Kit Williams' instructions, went back and was like, oh, there it is.

[16:34] Susan Blackwell: No way.

[16:35] Laura Camien: The timing of that, just that it would still be where they left it.

[16:39] Susan Blackwell: Yeah, I mean, that's crazy.

[16:40] Laura Camien: It's but it was so it was like boom boom, it was shortly thereafter.

[16:44] Susan Blackwell: But what was the value of it? Like, was it I don't I don't remember the value was in the solving of it?

[16:49] Laura Camien: I think that it did have real value, but the value was in the solving of it, the thrill of it.

[16:56] Susan Blackwell: Most of life's treasures.

[16:58] Laura Camien: That's not the destination.

[17:01] Susan Blackwell: But despite the scandal, the book became the inspiration for an entire genre of work known today as armchair treasure hunts.

[17:10] Laura Camien: Come on.

[17:11] Susan Blackwell: Yeah.

[17:11] Laura Camien: So he not only invented he not only created Masquerade, the book, the paintings, the hair, he created a genre.

[17:19] Susan Blackwell: Did he do another one himself?

[17:20] Laura Camien: He did.

[17:21] Susan Blackwell: I'm not going to dive deeply into it, but um, he did, and he actually uh actually let me tell you about it in just a second.

[17:29] Laura Camien: Okay, great.

[17:29] Susan Blackwell: Oh, wait. So since Masquerade, a number of titles have been released in the treasure hunt genre with prizes ranging from this was a turn of this return of phrase is not mine, but I love it. With prizes ranging from daymaking to life changing, among the more notable titles.

[17:46] Laura Camien: Wait, I mean then let that sink in the world.

[17:48] Susan Blackwell: I know.

[17:48] Laura Camien: So sometimes it's just little, smaller prizes.

[17:52] Susan Blackwell: Yeah, to absolutely life changing.

[17:55] Laura Camien: Wow. Among the more notable titles, there's The Secret, which is a high fantasy themed book from 1982 that was meant to lead to 12 keys, which could be redeemed for jewels.

[18:08] Susan Blackwell: Only two of the keys were ever found, and people are still looking for others to this day.

[18:13] Laura Camien: Hold on a second.

[18:14] Susan Blackwell: Is that related to the secret?

[18:16] Laura Camien: Like no.

[18:16] Susan Blackwell: It's not at all.

[18:17] Laura Camien: No, okay.

[18:18] Susan Blackwell: No, the um the Oprah Winfrey's like if you speak it, you can dream it.

[18:24] Laura Camien: You can make it sort of manifest.

[18:25] Susan Blackwell: Yeah.

[18:25] Laura Camien: No, has it.

[18:26] Susan Blackwell: Not at all related.

[18:27] Laura Camien: Okay.

[18:27] Susan Blackwell: No.

[18:28] Laura Camien: Um so only two of the keys were ever found.

[18:31] Susan Blackwell: People are still looking.

[18:32] Laura Camien: Byron Press, Byron Priest, the original author and person who hid the prizes, passed away in 2005.

[18:40] Susan Blackwell: So the exact location of the remaining prizes is likely lost.

[18:44] Laura Camien: But people are still searching, and they believe that one of these keys is in one of the 220 parks in San Francisco.

[18:54] Susan Blackwell: And in fact, the San Francisco Recreation and Sparks Department recently created a new program called the Treasure Rangers to allow treasure hunters to dig while ensuring that irrigation lines and flower beds would remain undamaged in response to this.

[19:09] Laura Camien: Wow.

[19:09] Susan Blackwell: Yeah.

[19:10] Laura Camien: That's smart of them.

[19:11] Susan Blackwell: So they let's embrace it, but also make sure they're not.

[19:14] Laura Camien: They received a request for somebody a treasure hunter wanted to dig.

[19:18] Susan Blackwell: And they instead of being like, oh no, they were like so charmed by it.

[19:24] Laura Camien: They said they've decided to lean in and they created this program.

[19:28] Susan Blackwell: That's sweet.

[19:28] Laura Camien: Isn't that sweet?

[19:29] Susan Blackwell: So sweet and so they were like in a city, in a big city, there's a lot of problems.

[19:33] Laura Camien: This is not one of them.

[19:34] Susan Blackwell: This is cool.

[19:35] Laura Camien: So I loved that they like took the ride too.

[19:39] Susan Blackwell: And they from they they pulled from the ranks of the city's park rangers and gardening staff and created the treasure rangers.

[19:46] Laura Camien: And the treasure rangers are assigned to treasure hunters for one hour at a time.

[19:52] Susan Blackwell: If a searcher comes up empty-handed after 60 minutes, they have to apply for a new permit.

[19:57] Laura Camien: And if you want to search Golden Gate Park, which is where they think one of these keys is hidden, if you want to search Golden Gate Park for hidden treasure, you can go online and fill out the secret treasure hunt dig request form on their website, and then you can schedule your time to go dig for 60 minutes for treasure.

[20:16] Susan Blackwell: I'm this the greatest spark.

[20:22] Laura Camien: I think that is so cool.

[20:23] Susan Blackwell: Isn't that cool?

[20:24] Laura Camien: Just that they embraced it, they're encouraging it, they're allowing it.

[20:28] Susan Blackwell: It's so I love it.

[20:29] Laura Camien: I love it.

[20:31] Susan Blackwell: I love it.

[20:32] Laura Camien: There's also a book called A Treasure's Trove.

[20:36] Susan Blackwell: It's a 2005 fairy tale puzzle book that hid the location of 14 artifacts which could be redeemed for a million dollars in jewels collectively.

[20:45] Laura Camien: Hello.

[20:46] Susan Blackwell: Hello.

[20:47] Laura Camien: So life changing.

[20:49] Susan Blackwell: Subsequent armchair treasure subject, subsequent armchair.

[20:56] Laura Camien: This is a toughie.

[20:57] Susan Blackwell: You got this.

[20:57] Laura Camien: The subsequent armchair treasure hunts have been created, making use of technologies that were unavailable when Masquerade was published, such as the web-based menagerie, the CD-ROM-based treasure quest.

[21:10] Susan Blackwell: Do CD ROM still exist?

[21:11] Laura Camien: I don't know.

[21:12] Susan Blackwell: I'm getting on that one.

[21:13] Laura Camien: Text for Treasure, which uses text messaging.

[21:17] Laura Camien: Um, other followers uh oh sorry, sorry.

[21:22] Susan Blackwell: VR now.

[21:23] Laura Camien: Oh, VR would be interesting.

[21:25] Susan Blackwell: Um, also you asked earlier if Kit Williams ever made another version of it.

[21:30] Laura Camien: I think he might have done another book, but he also did a um he did something, it was a game, it was a hair's quest or something like that.

[21:39] Susan Blackwell: It was uh it wasn't good though.

[21:42] Laura Camien: Okay.

[21:42] Susan Blackwell: People thought it was actually sort of they it was not well received, shall we say?

[21:49] Laura Camien: Got it.

[21:49] Susan Blackwell: Um others follow Masquerades use of physical media for the main puzzles, but provide additional clues online.

[21:57] Laura Camien: So there this has really become a thing.

[21:59] Susan Blackwell: But the armchair treasure hunt that is currently the granddaddy creating quite a ruckus, was created by a man named Forrest Fenn.

[22:10] Laura Camien: Do you know that name?

[22:11] Susan Blackwell: I don't know that name, but it's awesome.

[22:13] Laura Camien: It's a goodie.

[22:14] Susan Blackwell: The title of the book containing clues is called The Thrill of the Chase: a memoir.

[22:20] Laura Camien: But apparently, you don't even need the book to solve the hunt.

[22:25] Susan Blackwell: You just need this poem, which you can find on the internet, but I'm gonna save you a Google because I'm gonna read it for you right now.

[22:32] Laura Camien: Oh, please.

[22:32] Susan Blackwell: It's called Fenn's Poem, written by Forrest Fenn.

[22:36] Laura Camien: As I have gone alone in there and with my treasures bold, I can keep my secret wear and hint of riches new and old.

[22:46] Susan Blackwell: Begin it where warm waters halt and take it in the canyon down, not far, but too far to walk.

[22:54] Laura Camien: Put in below the home of Brown.

[22:56] Susan Blackwell: From there, it's no place for the meek.

[22:59] Laura Camien: The end is ever drawing nigh.

[23:01] Susan Blackwell: There'll be no paddle up your creek, just heavy loads and water high.

[23:06] Laura Camien: If you've been wise and found the blaze, look quickly down your quest to cease, but tarry scant with marvel gaze.

[23:14] Susan Blackwell: Just take the chest and go in peace.

[23:17] Laura Camien: So why is it that I must go and leave my trove for all to seek?

[23:21] Susan Blackwell: The answers I already know.

[23:23] Laura Camien: I've done it tired, and now I'm weak.

[23:26] Susan Blackwell: So hear me all and listen good.

[23:28] Laura Camien: Your effort will be worth the cold.

[23:30] Susan Blackwell: If you are brave and in the wood, I give you title to the gold.

[23:36] Laura Camien: That's it.

[23:37] Susan Blackwell: Ooh.

[23:38] Laura Camien: That's that's it.

[23:39] Susan Blackwell: Okay, pause.

[23:41] Laura Camien: Where would you start?

[23:42] Susan Blackwell: I had an idea of where I would start if Well, I'll tell you this.

[23:46] Laura Camien: Okay.

[23:46] Susan Blackwell: It's in the Rocky Mountains.

[23:48] Laura Camien: Oh shit.

[23:48] Susan Blackwell: It's in the Rocky Mountains.

[23:50] Laura Camien: Okay.

[23:51] Susan Blackwell: Who's Brown?

[23:52] Laura Camien: Like under whose There's a lot of speculation.

[23:54] Susan Blackwell: And I will tell you, well, let's get into this.

[23:56] Laura Camien: Okay, okay.

[23:57] Susan Blackwell: This goes there is it could be a place in the river where brown trout exists.

[24:05] Laura Camien: It could be a family so calm with a name of Brown who has a house.

[24:09] Susan Blackwell: It could be a trail with the type with a word brown or some variation like the oak trail, the brown bear.

[24:18] Laura Camien: Yes, yes.

[24:19] Susan Blackwell: Like got it.

[24:20] Laura Camien: There's um that's it gets deep and it's it's a lot, it covers a lot of states, the possibility.

[24:27] Susan Blackwell: Yeah.

[24:27] Laura Camien: Sure, the Rocky Mountains.

[24:29] Susan Blackwell: Um wow.

[24:30] Laura Camien: Okay, go ahead.

[24:30] Susan Blackwell: I'm sorry.

[24:31] Laura Camien: Yeah, no, I need to know everything.

[24:33] Susan Blackwell: So here was Forrest Fenn's initial spark.

[24:36] Laura Camien: In 1988, he thought he was going to die.

[24:39] Susan Blackwell: He thought he was going to die, and Forrest Fenn is this self-made man with no formal education.

[24:45] Laura Camien: He's an Air Force veteran, turned fine art collector.

[24:49] Susan Blackwell: And he had been diagnosed with kidney cancer, and doctors told him that he faced an uphill battle to survive.

[24:55] Laura Camien: So one night he's lying in bed.

[24:57] Susan Blackwell: He's thinking about his imminent death.

[25:00] Laura Camien: And he began thinking about how much he'd loved assembling his art and artifacts collection over the years.

[25:07] Susan Blackwell: He's become a really successful collector of fine art and artifacts.

[25:13] Laura Camien: Then in what he'd later write was a perfect match of mind and moment.

[25:19] Susan Blackwell: Forrest Fenn caught a spark.

[25:21] Laura Camien: And he thought, why not let others come searching for some of it while I'm still here and maybe continue looking for it after I'm gone.

[25:29] Susan Blackwell: Wow.

[25:30] Laura Camien: Yeah.

[25:30] Susan Blackwell: Big spark.

[25:31] Laura Camien: That's like I'll leave a legacy.

[25:34] Susan Blackwell: Like legacy.

[25:35] Laura Camien: It's I feel like so much.

[25:37] Susan Blackwell: It's so much of it about is about legacy for him.

[25:40] Laura Camien: So Fenn, as he's his words were, he paid way too much to buy this cast bronze chest.

[25:46] Susan Blackwell: And it looks like a little treasure chest.

[25:50] Laura Camien: It's beautiful.

[25:51] Susan Blackwell: And he transformed it into what he described as an opulent cache.

[25:56] Laura Camien: He filled it with gold coins, two gold nuggets weighing over a pound each, these ancient figurines, Chinese jade, a 17th century emerald ring, several small diamonds, a silver bracelet encrusted with turquoise, and a 20,000-word autobiography sealed in a jar and written in a font so small that the finder will need a magnifying glass to read it.

[26:19] Susan Blackwell: Legacy.

[26:20] Laura Camien: Legacy.

[26:21] Susan Blackwell: Legacy.

[26:21] Laura Camien: The estimated value of the treasure.

[26:23] Susan Blackwell: I've seen quoted between $1 million dollars and $5 million.

[26:27] Laura Camien: Well, and with some of those things in there, they're only increasing in value.

[26:31] Susan Blackwell: I would think.

[26:32] Laura Camien: You know, the whatever the ancient thing.

[26:35] Susan Blackwell: There's something about the all of them in total combined with the story.

[26:42] Laura Camien: And the the hunt that I feel like elevates it into this whole other it's like a whole other thing.

[26:49] Susan Blackwell: And all of it kept together will be worth more, I would imagine.

[26:53] Laura Camien: I would think so.

[26:54] Susan Blackwell: Wait, so has anyone found it?

[26:56] Laura Camien: Well, let's not get ahead of ourselves.

[26:58] Susan Blackwell: I'm sorry.

[26:59] Laura Camien: So he had, you know, he was going to die.

[27:02] Laura Camien: He had this idea.

[27:03] Susan Blackwell: He made the treasure.

[27:07] Laura Camien: And then Forrest Fenn lived.

[27:11] Susan Blackwell: Wow.

[27:11] Laura Camien: He lived.

[27:12] Susan Blackwell: And around 2010, Forrest Fenn drove into the mountains.

[27:16] Laura Camien: He hiked some distance and he left the chest in a secret spot that he said was very meaningful to him.

[27:23] Susan Blackwell: He told no one of his plan, not even his wife of 57 years. He said it was very personal. It's something he wanted to do for himself and something he didn't want to be talked out of. And I really have to say, there's something about that spirit of creative action. Not like I'm thinking about starting a podcast and like telling a lot of people. There's something about having a spark for a painting, for anything, a piece of choreography, whatever it is, and being like, I'm not going to talk about it. I'm going to do it.

[27:52] Laura Camien: That's right.

[27:54] Susan Blackwell: Um for so many reasons. The power in just doing it, but also just not opening it up for comments. No, there's nobody else gets a vote. Nobody else gets a vote on this. That's it. And so that's what he did. Now, sometimes, just counter argument. Sometimes we it's helpful to talk things out to no shame in it. No shame. No shame in it. But I love that he didn't tell anybody just fucking did it. Sometimes I think it's a bit about trusting your instinct. If you suspect that you're surrounded by people who may tell you it's a crazy idea, or maybe you should think more about it, and maybe that doesn't make sense, etc. etc. Then trust your instinct, keep it to yourself.

[28:49] Laura Camien: He was like, That is true. I don't want anybody else to know where this thing is. And when you do something like this with that value, you know, even if he trusted his wife 100%. I think it's to protect them too, because what if somebody kidnapped her and was like I'll give her back if you tell me where that treasure is.

[29:02] Susan Blackwell: That's right. If she doesn't know, she doesn't know. Totally. So he also, Forrest Fenn self-published a book called The Thrill of the Chase, and in it he included nine clues about the treasure's location that are embedded in that 24-line poem I just read to you. It took him about 10 years to craft the poem.

[29:20] Laura Camien: So he had already planted, like and buried the treasure.

[29:25] Susan Blackwell: I think I'm not sure of the exact order because I I'm not sure. Um, but it took him 10 years to do that. It took him a while to yeah. Then how did he share the poem? Did he write the book and then the book said go?

[29:39] Laura Camien: The search really took off in 2013 when Fenn appeared on the Today Show to generate buzz.

[29:45] Susan Blackwell: And his the book had been out, but the book sales spiked from a sale sales of twenty five copies per month to twenty five copies per minute.

[29:54] Laura Camien: Stop we all need a treasure in our lives.

[29:57] Susan Blackwell: Right? We need the hunt. Yes, we need a lottery ticket. Is it about hope? Is it about like there's some psychological thoughts about that? Um I will say that by 2019, an estimated three hundred and fifty thousand people had searched for the chest. That's by 2019. So I don't know by now.

[30:16] Laura Camien: Um yeah.

[30:17] Susan Blackwell: On Facebook, there are huge groups where people discuss and debate clues. There are independently hosted forums, there are websites, there are blogs, there are YouTube channels on Reddit. 14,000 people subscribe to slash finding fens gold. Like there are there are so many people that are these treasure hunters that are engaged in this.

[30:43] Laura Camien: Um the idea is that once someone has solved the riddle, all they need is a quick boots on the ground trip, which the treasure hunters refer to as a B O T G.

[30:54] Susan Blackwell: They all call it a B O T G boots on the ground to go retrieve the chest. And people come from all over the world for these B.O.T. G trips and families families look for clues and hunt together like fam like whole families.

[31:09] Laura Camien: And when you say a simple boots on the ground track, like they believe that it is like within sight of a walking trail.

[31:19] Susan Blackwell: It's not deep in the woods, way underground, in the back of a cage. What I get from that poem is that there's one line, I don't know if you remember, but it's like it is a little too far to walk. It sounds like. But once you get to the place, you can walk to it. Like, so you might have to drive or I don't know, ride a donkey to a location.

[31:38] Laura Camien: I was gonna say, are we on horseback?

[31:42] Susan Blackwell: Um, but it is wow.

[31:45] Laura Camien: Yeah.

[31:45] Susan Blackwell: So for all the fun, the adventure, the community, the excitement, Fenn's treasure hunt does have a dark side to it. There are stories about searchers who have gone overboard. They've lost their savings, their homes, their marriages to the quest. I saw a video of a dude from Pennsylvania who looked a lot like Horatio Sands, who flew across the country and broke into Forrest Fenn's Santa Fe home with an axe because he thought that the clues in the poem led him there.

[32:13] Laura Camien: No.

[32:14] Susan Blackwell: And the video, there's video from the arresting officer's body cam recording this whole thing. This this is like fully an officer with gun drawn because this guy has tried to break into this guy's home with an axe. And the guy who's the perpetrator is telling the officer that he he thought the clues in the poem led him there.

[32:38] Laura Camien: And as you can imagine, the officer hasn't listened to this episode of the Sparks File.

[32:44] Susan Blackwell: He has no idea what the guy's talking about, and he laughs. This guy, this goes from a cop with gun drawn to an officer. He laughs in disbelief, and he says, he goes, You broke in here because of a poem. Are you serious?

[33:00] Laura Camien: It's great.

[33:01] Susan Blackwell: It's one of the weirdest things I've ever seen. And then the officer goes, here's the thing, man. That's burglary, dude.

[33:09] Laura Camien: And the guy's like, Yeah, I know.

[33:12] Susan Blackwell: I just want to show you a picture of his mugshot.

[33:14] Laura Camien: I need to see this man.

[33:18] Susan Blackwell: Wow.

[33:19] Laura Camien: Yeah.

[33:19] Susan Blackwell: He looks happy, doesn't he?

[33:20] Laura Camien: He does look happy.

[33:22] Susan Blackwell: But he did pursue a calling.

[33:25] Laura Camien: He did with me.

[33:27] Susan Blackwell: Wow. So according to this author, Stuart Vise, he's the author of a book called Going Broke, Why Americans Still Can't Hold On to Their Money. The Fenn treasure hunt is likely addictive because it sits at this perfect intersection of several psychological factors, like the allure of making money without work, the element of adventure, and the perceived intelligence involved in solving the puzzle.

[33:55] Laura Camien: Without work is like buying a lottery ticket or playing a slot machine.

[33:58] Susan Blackwell: Oh, this is an enormous amount of work. It's not a job though.

[34:01] Laura Camien: It's not a job.

[34:02] Susan Blackwell: It's a not a job. But it's an enormous amount of people buy like the hiking equipment, the GPS, uh, all trained vehicle that can get to a place the plane tickets and um the shovel.

[34:18] Laura Camien: A pick and a shovel.

[34:19] Susan Blackwell: I don't know that it's buried. Because he uses words like I placed it.

[34:23] Laura Camien: So crazy.

[34:25] Susan Blackwell: But how many years ago though?

[34:26] Laura Camien: So is it?

[34:27] Susan Blackwell: Overborn 2010.

[34:29] Laura Camien: That's right.

[34:29] Susan Blackwell: The topography may have changed. What if there was a uh rock slide or an avalanche? I'm curious, does he ever go visit it to check?

[34:36] Laura Camien: Because people could follow him, and that wouldn't be good.

[34:36] Susan Blackwell: That wouldn't be good. He wouldn't be able to go check it.

[34:41] Laura Camien: Yeah.

[34:44] Susan Blackwell: And the consequences aren't just financial.

[34:47] Laura Camien: Oh.

[34:47] Susan Blackwell: Depending on who is counting, the number changes, but between four and six people have died trying to find the treasure.

[34:55] Laura Camien: No.

[34:56] Susan Blackwell: Yeah. People who are hiking, people who get lost and don't make it out, people who fall and like fall 500 feet. And um, as a result, several law enforcement officials have publicly begged, pleaded, and demanded that he that Fenn retrieve the chest or call off the hunt.

[35:18] Laura Camien: But Fenn has declined to do so.

[35:21] Susan Blackwell: He said, I want people to have fun and I want people to be adventurous. And he also stressed, he has stressed on several occasions that people need to take the proper precautions when venturing out. He said it's important to have someone with you anytime you go into the mountains. Family or friends at home should know your plan in detail and you should stick to the plan. Proper clothing, a cell phone, GPS, food and water are necessities.

[35:44] Laura Camien: He also said that when he placed the treasure, he was 80 years old, and he did it by simply walking with no endangerment required.

[35:51] Susan Blackwell: He has told followers not to look any place where an 80-year-old man couldn't put it.

[35:58] Laura Camien: Whoa.

[35:58] Susan Blackwell: Yeah. So, but here's the tricky part. When people are trying to figure out where, for instance, the home of Brown is, they are really adventuring out in the way that Forrest Fenn hoped that they would. They're getting out into nature, they're trying to, and sometimes that puts people in precarious positions.

[36:19] Laura Camien: Right?

[36:20] Susan Blackwell: Um in 2016, in an interview, Fenn said he hopes the finder is a redneck from Texas who's lost his job with a pickup truck and 12 kids and a wife to support.

[36:31] Laura Camien: Everyone can make this happen for them, no matter what their financial needs are.

[36:36] Susan Blackwell: Which that to me feels like it's playing on that lottery ticket, sort of thing. Like, if we can just find the treasure, all of this will turn around.

[36:47] Laura Camien: That's right.

[36:47] Susan Blackwell: I'm this close. We're this close. We're this close. And we could go from complete rags to complete riches.

[36:54] Laura Camien: Um, the fence searchers don't like to focus on the deaths or the debts.

[36:58] Susan Blackwell: Instead, people prefer to talk about how Fenn has reunited long lost relatives, rekindled their love of the outdoors, and taught them skills that they'd never pick up otherwise.

[37:09] Laura Camien: I would imagine also in certain relationships that fare really well when you're working on a project together, like a puzzle, like things like that that bring people together of like a shared challenge.

[37:22] Susan Blackwell: There's been a it seems like there's been a fair amount of with this and with other. I saw um a it was called the breakfast tea and bourbon treasure hunt.

[37:34] Laura Camien: The treasure was, I think, worth $50,000.

[37:39] Susan Blackwell: And it was solved by a family of four. Just this family of four from Texas solved it. And it the treasure you had to find was a flute that was a key point in the story.

[37:53] Laura Camien: And it was buried along a hiking trail.

[37:56] Susan Blackwell: And they determined where it was, and they went there and they said it was just like under some leaves, and they found it and they claimed the prize.

[38:04] Laura Camien: What a fun thing to do as a family.

[38:06] Susan Blackwell: And to be able to say, like, oh yeah, I remember when I was growing up and my family, we found the treasure.

[38:12] Laura Camien: We all worked on this together.

[38:13] Susan Blackwell: It was so suicide.

[38:15] Laura Camien: That's really neat.

[38:16] Susan Blackwell: Um are you saying there's a bunch of those that are like at that level out there?

[38:21] Laura Camien: 10,000, 20,000, 50,000.

[38:23] Susan Blackwell: There are unsolved at all levels, they're unsolved treasures waiting right now that people are trying to crack. Forrest Fenn said he hopes that in 2,000 years, long time Forrest Fenn.

[38:29] Laura Camien: He hopes that in 2,000 years someone finds the chest and they they give it to the Smithsonian, and the museum puts it on display and shares the story of the treasure hunt.

[38:44] Susan Blackwell: And to your point, I feel like this is all about legacy.

[38:47] Laura Camien: It's legacy, I think.

[38:48] Susan Blackwell: Yeah, yeah. I mean, just knowing you won't be forgotten.

[38:53] Laura Camien: Yes, which is right that yeah, as we've discussed, is super meaningful to people.

[38:57] Susan Blackwell: Yeah. Fenn, who is still alive, loves that people have gotten up and out of doors to enjoy the adventure of it. And for many, it is that thrill of the chase and the opportunity to explore that they love.

[39:10] Laura Camien: And he continued by saying, We all have an Indiana Jones hidden inside of us.

[39:15] Susan Blackwell: Yes.

[39:16] Laura Camien: We want some adventure.

[39:18] Susan Blackwell: Yes. Isn't that fun? For it. For he's an interesting person.

[39:23] Laura Camien: How old is he now?

[39:24] Susan Blackwell: He must be 90.

[39:25] Laura Camien: So he did it in in 2010. He was 80.

[39:28] Susan Blackwell: So he's like, he's peeking up to 90.

[39:31] Laura Camien: Wow.

[39:31] Susan Blackwell: He's getting up there.

[39:32] Laura Camien: Yeah.

[39:33] Susan Blackwell: What a fun gift to give to the world. Honestly.

[39:36] Laura Camien: Really fun.

[39:37] Susan Blackwell: You might feel differently if you're somebody who has lost a person.

[39:40] Laura Camien: Um that's right.

[39:42] Susan Blackwell: But I have to say, and I'm not saying this to minimize that loss.

[39:47] Laura Camien: Yeah.

[39:48] Susan Blackwell: But people who do like to go out into the wilderness and hike and do and live. Accidents happen.

[39:54] Laura Camien: That's right.

[39:56] Susan Blackwell: And they may have happened anyway if those people were just out.

[39:59] Laura Camien: It could happen in pursuit of something or not in pursuit of something.

[40:02] Susan Blackwell: Yeah. So I um I do think that he has brought a lot of adventure. Did you say that he has kids or he doesn't have two adult daughters?

[40:14] Laura Camien: So that's another reason, you know, why maybe not to share with a lot of people because everyone has their own agendas.

[40:20] Susan Blackwell: You gotta wonder.

[40:21] Laura Camien: He's got grandkids, he's got it.

[40:22] Susan Blackwell: Yeah, that's right. And you're like, guess what? I'm not leaving my money behind. I'm gonna put it in a copper chest and hide it.

[40:30] Laura Camien: He even has people that work with him, like people who see him every day who are searching for his treasure.

[40:38] Susan Blackwell: They don't ask him where, they don't ask him for any clues, they they just have this like mutual respect about it.

[40:45] Laura Camien: I wonder if the world would respect that though.

[40:48] Susan Blackwell: If someone that he knows finds it, like would people cry foul?

[40:53] Laura Camien: Well, there are people that think the whole thing is a hoax.

[40:55] Susan Blackwell: Oh, I don't though.

[40:57] Laura Camien: I have I absolutely believe that that treasure is out there.

[41:00] Susan Blackwell: I don't think there's any reason why this person of great means, I don't think it's a hoax.

[41:05] Susan Blackwell: You know what it also reminds me of? Ready Player One. It reminds me so much of Ready Player One, how there's all of these challenges.

[41:12] Laura Camien: Yes.

[41:13] Susan Blackwell: And I wonder if you could almost include Ready Player One. It's not part of that genre because there wasn't a real-life treasure. Like you didn't get to take over that dude's company if you solved the riddles of Ready Player One. Do they have a video game Ready Player One as well? Because that's there's a good spark. That's if they don't, I mean that's I mean that's this opportunity.

[41:33] Laura Camien: Right.

[41:33] Susan Blackwell: But what else it's also like, what else do you make of this? I feel like, like if you're a 10 or 11-year-old, I don't know why you're listening to this podcast. But welcome. But welcome. Um make your own treasure hunt. Or if you're an adult, make your own treasure hunt. And the prize, as we were discussing earlier, could be day making or life-changing.

[41:52] Laura Camien: That's right.

[41:53] Susan Blackwell: It's so fun. Up to you. Oh make a treasure map, hide a treasure. That was day making right there. That was awesome. Um I also thought it might be fun to write, like, not me, somebody. I've thought it'd be fun for somebody to write a like a thriller, like a sort of a Da Vinci Code type thriller that is set in the context of a treasure hunt.

[42:16] Laura Camien: 100%.

[42:17] Susan Blackwell: I thought that would be really that also reminds me of um the real-life treasure hunting that goes on off the coast of Florida.

[42:25] Laura Camien: Oh yeah.

[42:25] Susan Blackwell: And these are people that are searching for Spanish ships of gold.

[42:30] Laura Camien: Yes, yes.

[42:31] Susan Blackwell: And they find them like just often enough, people find them to keep the dream alive. Yeah, this is a bit of a spark, another spark. I don't know if I'll ever get to, so I'll I'll just share this now. Someone else can dive into it. But I think there was um a story about someone who was uh went into space, I don't know, like a famous astronaut.

[42:54] Laura Camien: Okay.

[42:55] Susan Blackwell: They can see the coast of Florida, they can see, you know, from space, and apparently like took notes on the what they can see, because you can see if the water is clear enough, you can see objects.

[43:07] Laura Camien: Sparkly gold treasure.

[43:08] Susan Blackwell: Sparkly gold just sitting there. No, just you know, shapes and and things and figures that would at least help you narrow down where um ships may perceive that. Yeah, I think there was a show. I actually think I learned that from someone who was watching a show on History Channel or something. Um that astronaut left his notes and his map to like a family friend, and that's what they have to go on, and then they became treasure hunters based on that.

[43:39] Laura Camien: Yeah, it's really interesting.

[43:41] Susan Blackwell: I don't know much more than that, but but it fascinated me to know, like, yeah, if you just if you can just get a tip, get a yeah, get enough of a hand. Just a good solid leaf. So I also thought it might be cool to write a novel, like you could write a novel set in the context of a treasure hunt that actually provides the clues to a real armchair treasure hunt.

[44:02] Laura Camien: So like as they go along.

[44:04] Susan Blackwell: Yeah. Like instead of embedding it in a poem or a picture book, like could it be in a novel about treasure hunting? The other thing is these treasure hunters and the folks who make these treasures are such rich, interesting characters that could be really good models and templates for characters in any story you want to make.

[44:28] Laura Camien: Like listen, go listen to some interviews of Forrest Fenn.

[44:32] Susan Blackwell: He is an interesting the more I talk about this, the more I makes me want to research what the sparks were for Ready Player One. Because there's some I I don't know. The guy that broke that tried to break into Forrest Fenn's house because he thought the poem led him there. That dude's a character. Like there are so many interesting people with really fascinating stories. There was a woman I read about who for her, she lives very near the Rockies, and for her, it's kind of just like a day trip. It costs about $50 in gas.

[45:06] Laura Camien: Yeah.

[45:06] Susan Blackwell: And maybe if she buys herself lunch, that's the cost of her going to a bo doing a boots on the ground. Yeah. And for her, it's a way for her to, it's a hobby and some peace for her because she has an autistic son. Like there's so many characters, some physical activity.

[45:22] Laura Camien: Yeah.

[45:23] Susan Blackwell: It's you know, yeah. If you're gonna be out, if you're going for a hike anyway, you can engage your mind. It's like physical and intellectual.

[45:29] Laura Camien: Yeah.

[45:30] Susan Blackwell: I like I just like the idea of making something too that brings so much life and so much adventure to other people. Zest. Why does the word zest come? It's like it just brings, I don't know, it like infuses a whole group of people with such energy and excitement.

[45:46] Laura Camien: Yeah.

[45:46] Susan Blackwell: So armchair treasure hunts. That is my spark for you today.

[45:50] Laura Camien: You are awesome, Susan.

[45:52] Susan Blackwell: So good.

[45:54] Laura Camien: Oh good. That was so happy.

[45:56] Susan Blackwell: But I have a happy face. I love it.

[45:58] Laura Camien: All right, let's take a break.

[45:59] Susan Blackwell: Okay, let's take a break.

[46:02] Laura Camien: Isn't that interesting?

[46:03] Susan Blackwell: So interesting.

[46:06] Laura Camien: Forrest I've been brewing that spark for 40 years.

[46:09] Susan Blackwell: That is amazing.

[46:11] Laura Camien: This one's not quite so matured.

[46:15] Susan Blackwell: This one hasn't been cooking as long.

[46:17] Laura Camien: Okay. Susan.

[46:19] Susan Blackwell: Yes.

[46:20] Laura Camien: Did you ever watch The Grinder? Do you know what that is?

[46:23] Susan Blackwell: Wait, wait, wait. Fred Savage?

[46:25] Laura Camien: It's Fred Savage and Rob Lowe.

[46:27] Susan Blackwell: And a lawyer.

[46:28] Laura Camien: And and I never watched it, but they had really good Subway posters.

[46:33] Susan Blackwell: Oh.

[46:34] Laura Camien: The subway poster had a pun on it that I was a laugh out loud, funny.

[46:39] Susan Blackwell: It's so rare when when a poster can do that.

[46:43] Laura Camien: Well, that poster did, and I don't remember what it was.

[46:46] Susan Blackwell: All right, so this show is it was a sitcom on Fox. And it was on like 2015. And I think they only had like one or two seasons, and I'm sure I discovered it late, let's be honest. But oh my god, I fucking love, excuse me. I love Rob Lowe so much.

[47:02] Laura Camien: Do you?

[47:04] Susan Blackwell: And Fred Savage.

[47:06] Laura Camien: I know you love Fred Savage.

[47:08] Susan Blackwell: Well, I know you watched Friends with C Friends from College, right? He delights me. So can Fred Savage come on this podcast? Please, Fred, please.

[47:11] Laura Camien: He delights me.

[47:18] Susan Blackwell: Susan, if you loved him on that, you would love him so flipping much on The Grinder.

[47:25] Laura Camien: But the premise of The Grinder is this like the two of them are brothers. One is a lawyer, one plays a lawyer on TV.

[47:33] Susan Blackwell: It's so concise and so perfect. And as you might guess, it's Fred Savage, who is the real lawyer.

[47:40] Laura Camien: And so is their dad.

[47:41] Susan Blackwell: And they're like small town law practice, divorces and custody cases, and just like average, you know, not super exciting types of cases.

[47:52] Laura Camien: Yeah.

[47:52] Susan Blackwell: And Rob Lowe is the brother who plays a lawyer on TV. And he has this hit show where he plays a lawyer called The Grinder.

[48:01] Laura Camien: And it has all this pomp and circumstance, and he does all the bad acting with his glasses and dramatic courtroom speeches and theatrical antics to like prove his case.

[48:13] Susan Blackwell: You know, it's like all of that. And the world knows him as that lawyer. Like probably the way people know like Mark Harmon as a navy guy from NCIS, you know, or Matt Losh or McGyver or whoever. You're just like, oh, you are that guy.

[48:32] Laura Camien: So you know the guy.

[48:33] Susan Blackwell: And like Bull, the guy who who's the guy who plays Bull.

[48:37] Laura Camien: Couldn't tell you.

[48:38] Susan Blackwell: But you know, yeah, it's that guy. So Rob Lowe, his TV show comes to an end.

[48:43] Laura Camien: Are you laughing at something? Did you look something up?

[48:44] Susan Blackwell: I found the poster.

[48:46] Laura Camien: Oh my God.

[48:47] Susan Blackwell: What is the poster?

[48:48] Laura Camien: The poster is of it is the poster of Rob Lowe's TV character.

[48:54] Susan Blackwell: Uh huh.

[48:55] Laura Camien: The Grinder. And it says Dean Sanderson is The Grinder.

[48:59] Susan Blackwell: There's no one he can't get off.

[49:03] Laura Camien: I saw that in the subway. It made me laugh out loud.

[49:07] Susan Blackwell: And probably true. So The Grinder TV show comes to an end.

[49:13] Laura Camien: Grinder rests, which is also how he ended every courtroom.

[49:17] Susan Blackwell: Grinder rests. This is the best ridiculous. So he doesn't know what to do with himself. So he heads back home.

[49:24] Laura Camien: And while he's there, he kind of sees what his brother has going on.

[49:27] Susan Blackwell: He's got a wife and kids and a small law practice, and he's with family, and like his the whole lifestyle just suddenly appeals to him, kind of the way, you know, a Hollywood big shop might think that this little town is so quaint and so sweet, but it's more like a backdrop to a larger story. But he thinks he falls in love with it.

[49:46] Laura Camien: So he's like, I think I'm gonna stay here and I'm gonna practice law.

[49:53] Susan Blackwell: And as you can imagine, Fred Savage is like, but you're not a lawyer.

[49:59] Laura Camien: Horrified.

[50:00] Susan Blackwell: Not a problem. I I did all this every day. You know, he's just like, you pick things up. You pick things up. So um anyway, so Fred Savage is so amazing in this.

[50:10] Laura Camien: So he can't believe this is happening.

[50:12] Susan Blackwell: But nonetheless, his brother joins the team. He gives a flashy performance in the courtroom, and they win a case. And but his brother's not a he's not a lawyer.

[50:18] Laura Camien: He's not a lawyer.

[50:22] Susan Blackwell: But he adds some spice to the whole thing, and then the small town is just like, oh my god, brings the scissor.

[50:27] Laura Camien: Brings the sizzle.

[50:28] Susan Blackwell: Yeah. You're The Grinder.

[50:29] Laura Camien: Yeah.

[50:30] Susan Blackwell: So now they're loaded with new cases and they need help. But Rob's character, of course, comes in and asks, I know we have a lot of cases, but how do these cases make us feel? And of course, Fred's like, What? Like, what do you mean?

[50:44] Laura Camien: He's like, none of these cases are really speaking to me.

[50:49] Susan Blackwell: We can't choose from these cases. We've got to wait for the right case to choose us.

[50:55] Laura Camien: And Fred is just literally just like, this can't be happening in my life.

[51:00] Susan Blackwell: He's like, we can't just throw away these cases. Like we'd go out of business.

[51:04] Laura Camien: And Rob says, but what if we could?

[51:08] Susan Blackwell: And Fred's like, we can't.

[51:12] Laura Camien: But what if we could?

[51:14] Susan Blackwell: And Fred is literally like, I don't even know how to respond to you when you're like, what is this line of questioning? But this line of questioning launches this whole theme for the episode, but what if it wasn't?

[51:30] Laura Camien: The question.

[51:31] Susan Blackwell: The question. The best way I can describe it is like, let's say you're in a burning building with The Grinder.

[51:37] Laura Camien: Yeah.

[51:38] Susan Blackwell: You're just looking for a door. We've got to get out. We're looking for a door. The building's okay. The door is locked. And his answer is, Well, but what if it wasn't?

[51:48] Laura Camien: Like, it doesn't fucking matter.

[51:50] Susan Blackwell: It is locked. It is factual. Wes and I still laugh at this like three years later.

[51:57] Laura Camien: But what if it wasn't?

[51:59] Susan Blackwell: And I was reminded of this the other night when I was watching a movie that couldn't be any further away from The Grinder if it tried.

[52:06] Laura Camien: Wait, is this your spark?

[52:08] Susan Blackwell: I'm getting to it.

[52:10] Laura Camien: That was the warmup.

[52:11] Susan Blackwell: Totally getting to it. No, this is what my spark before we leave Rob Blow behind. If that is where we're headed.

[52:18] Laura Camien: Oh, we'll circle back.

[52:19] Susan Blackwell: Okay. Why do I why must I map out my spark in advance? I just want to make sure if we are if we're the Rob Lowe trade is leaving the station.

[52:27] Laura Camien: Yes.

[52:28] Susan Blackwell: You know, Rob Lowe's from Dayton, Ohio.

[52:30] Laura Camien: Is he really?

[52:30] Susan Blackwell: And his dad is a lawyer.

[52:32] Laura Camien: Oh my god.

[52:34] Susan Blackwell: Practicing in Dayton, Ohio. I he's probably retired by now.

[52:37] Laura Camien: Even more perfect.

[52:38] Susan Blackwell: But um, when we were in high school, like young, like freshman in high school, we would prank call his dad's house.

[52:46] Laura Camien: No.

[52:47] Susan Blackwell: We totally would. Because Rob was already a star.

[52:50] Laura Camien: Yeah.

[52:51] Susan Blackwell: And we at a very young age. And we would call, giggle, and oh my God. Just wanted to have said that. Because his dad was in the phone book.

[52:59] Laura Camien: And Rob Lowe was in The Outsiders, right?

[53:02] Susan Blackwell: Yes, he was.

[53:03] Laura Camien: And I fell in love with Dylan in that in that period.

[53:07] Susan Blackwell: But Rob Lowe was was right up there too. The Outsiders is one of those films where it's like there's something for everybody.

[53:12] Laura Camien: There really, really is something for everyone.

[53:15] Susan Blackwell: My God. Plus, you don't love white guys, then there's probably not something for you.

[53:21] Laura Camien: But I do think that Rob has gone on to show his capabilities as an actor and in particular comedian.

[53:30] Susan Blackwell: And a comedian, yes. Like I think of him sometimes.

[53:33] Laura Camien: I think of people who are like extraordinarily attractive.

[53:37] Susan Blackwell: And a lot of times you meet them and it's perfectly fine.

[53:40] Laura Camien: But sometimes you meet people who are that attractive.

[53:43] Susan Blackwell: And I'm always left with a sense of like he's way kinder than he is required to be.

[53:53] Laura Camien: And what I think I mean by that, I started saying that a while ago, just a couple people that I met that I was like, they don't actually have to be that nice.

[54:00] Susan Blackwell: Because frankly, we live in a world where if you look like that, you can get by and do quite well for yourself without being a kind person.

[54:10] Laura Camien: Yeah.

[54:11] Susan Blackwell: Um, but he is like an incredibly beautiful person who behaves like they have no idea how but he must.

[54:19] Laura Camien: And now he's able to like make fun of how he looks and make fun of all of that.

[54:24] Susan Blackwell: He's had an amazing career. Truly, truly amazing.

[54:27] Laura Camien: Yes, so I was um reminded of this, but what if it wasn't the other night when I was watching a movie that really could not be further from The Grinder if it tried.

[54:40] Susan Blackwell: I decided to watch All Is True.

[54:43] Susan Blackwell: Do you remember this movie?

[54:45] Laura Camien: No, it's from last year.

[54:47] Susan Blackwell: Sorry, I should say it's from 2018.

[54:51] Laura Camien: No, that's a lie.

[54:52] Susan Blackwell: It's from early 2019.

[54:54] Laura Camien: Okay.

[54:54] Susan Blackwell: Um, it's Kenneth Branagh, it's Judy Dench, and it's the story of Shakespeare after the Globe Theater burnt down when like a stage cannon went off mistakenly.

[55:05] Laura Camien: I don't know if you know the Globe Theater burnt down near the end of Shakespeare's career.

[55:09] Susan Blackwell: Oh.

[55:10] Laura Camien: So it was the, uh, you know, he was not only an incredible playwright and made a fortune doing that, but he also was, um, uh, an entrepreneur in a way, like he had an unprecedented amount of control, like as a part owner in the Globe Theater.

[55:26] Susan Blackwell: He worked his way up to that, so that meant, you know, so he was money.

[55:30] Laura Camien: He was like the greatest playwright of all time, and he was also in Eaterlander.

[55:34] Susan Blackwell: Uh, yes, yeah.

[55:35] Laura Camien: He was a show and felt, yeah, exactly that, and then his theater burnt down.

[55:41] Susan Blackwell: And, um, there's some people who believe like he didn't write after that, but it's unknown because a lot of his plays don't have a date for when they were first.

[55:51] Laura Camien: Or maybe he just was older, yeah, and he was older.

[55:54] Susan Blackwell: And I, uh, some people believe though that he wrote several more plays that were, um, collaborations with other people, but Kenneth Branagh imagines a scenario where we see Shakespeare in this part of his life that frankly we haven't, like I feel like Shakespeare is so everywhere that people have a sense like I know him, I know what that's about, I know what that story is.

[56:21] Laura Camien: I got it.

[56:22] Susan Blackwell: Um, when in actuality there's parts of his life that really haven't been shown like in that way.

[56:28] Laura Camien: Of course, there was like Shakespeare in Love long ago that I think Gwyneth, uh, Paltrow won an Oscar for her performance.

[56:36] Susan Blackwell: This would be a little bit more like Shakespeare in retirement.

[56:40] Laura Camien: Fascinating.

[56:41] Susan Blackwell: And you can see why people tuned right in.

[56:44] Laura Camien: But where did, where can we watch this?

[56:46] Susan Blackwell: Um, I watched it on Prime.

[56:48] Laura Camien: Okay.

[56:48] Susan Blackwell: Yeah.

[56:49] Laura Camien: So it's on Amazon Prime.

[56:50] Susan Blackwell: Okay. Say the name of it again.

[56:51] Laura Camien: All is true.

[56:52] Susan Blackwell: All is true.

[56:53] Laura Camien: All is true was also an alternate title for Henry the Eighth, one of Shakespeare's plays.

[57:00] Susan Blackwell: You're kidding.

[57:00] Laura Camien: No.

[57:00] Susan Blackwell: Oh, I thought you were going to say for like All's Well That Ends Well or something like that.

[57:04] Laura Camien: Oh, no.

[57:04] Susan Blackwell: For Henry VIII, it was all is true.

[57:07] Laura Camien: Did it mean all was true in that play?

[57:09] Susan Blackwell: I think it plays on the idea of what is true as it does in this movie.

[57:13] Laura Camien: Got it.

[57:14] Susan Blackwell: Super, super interesting.

[57:16] Laura Camien: So in this particular movie, they posit that Shakespeare headed home to Stratford-on-Avon after the fire, after the theater burnt down, and he kind of retired.

[57:27] Susan Blackwell: And there he reunited with his wife and children, who he had kind of abandoned, frankly.

[57:33] Laura Camien: Like throughout his lifetime, this is true. He had a wife and four kids, but he was mostly in London.

[57:38] Susan Blackwell: He was busy.

[57:39] Laura Camien: He set them up with a beautiful home and a lovely life.

[57:43] Susan Blackwell: But he was like having him back in the house was like having a guest.

[57:47] Laura Camien: They're like, oh, well, okay. And you're staying? You sure you're not headed back to London in a week?

[57:52] Susan Blackwell: Yeah, sure.

[57:53] Laura Camien: Um, disrupting our rhythms.

[57:55] Susan Blackwell: Mm-hmm.

[57:56] Laura Camien: Mm-hmm.

[57:57] Susan Blackwell: So it's interesting.

[58:00] Laura Camien: Um, the historical records are a little bit spotty for the 1500s, as you can imagine.

[58:06] Susan Blackwell: Um, so they leave a lot of details about Shakespeare's life in the realm of uncertainty.

[58:11] Laura Camien: So, anytime any storyteller, frankly, is depicting this most famous playwright of all time, they're all kind of tapping into a broad collective agreement of like we don't know for sure about these things, but millions of studies have been done, and this is the best we can piece together.

[58:33] Susan Blackwell: So we'll agree this is probably what happened.

[58:37] Laura Camien: But what if it isn't?

[58:40] Susan Blackwell: So Ken is the grinder, but what if it isn't?

[58:45] Laura Camien: So in this film, I'm just gonna call him Ken.

[58:50] Susan Blackwell: Ken used enough like detail of Shakespeare's life as we know it, the plays in London, his creative success, etc., and then put him in a time of his life that we know less about.

[59:03] Laura Camien: And the various details of this part of his life bring an entirely different story to light.

[59:12] Susan Blackwell: One of the details that was fascinating to me is that it highlighted the fact that his wife and his daughters could not read or write.

[59:23] Laura Camien: That was common in the time, or they might be able to read to a certain degree, but couldn't write for sure.

[59:30] Susan Blackwell: Because women weren't taught to write.

[59:32] Laura Camien: So at one point, I mean, just think about it.

[59:36] Susan Blackwell: It actually, that just gave me chills.

[59:38] Laura Camien: At one point, Judy Dench, though his, he comes back into their lives, and she is a little bit like, you'll take the guest room because it's Judy Dench is playing his wife.

[59:48] Susan Blackwell: Mm-hmm.

[59:48] Laura Camien: You're kidding.

[59:50] Susan Blackwell: No.

[59:51] Laura Camien: Amazing. Who's playing Shakespeare?

[59:53] Susan Blackwell: Kenneth Branagh.

[59:55] Laura Camien: Because that's, I mean, that's fascinating.

[59:57] Susan Blackwell: That's fascinating.

[59:58] Laura Camien: That's interesting.

[59:59] Susan Blackwell: But his wife was older than him.

[1:00:00] Laura Camien: Okay.

[1:00:01] Susan Blackwell: And I see this movie.

[1:00:04] Laura Camien: You need to see this movie.

[1:00:05] Susan Blackwell: It's really, really good.

[1:00:07] Laura Camien: So at one point, his wife mentions like it's all in the context of like, do you have any idea of what our life is like has been like here?

[1:00:19] Susan Blackwell: Like you're off in London, you're doing your thing.

[1:00:22] Laura Camien: And have you ever considered what it would feel like for me to be married to the world's greatest writer, and I can't read a single word.

[1:00:34] Susan Blackwell: That just got me.

[1:00:41] Laura Camien: That is, he explores it in a number of ways.

[1:00:43] Susan Blackwell: I've never thought of a scenario existing like that.

[1:00:48] Laura Camien: Right?

[1:00:49] Susan Blackwell: Yeah.

[1:00:50] Laura Camien: And we, that we know so much about Shakespeare, and we've never seen this perspective.

[1:00:55] Susan Blackwell: So the fact that his daughter can't write also becomes part of a larger storyline involving his only son who died.

[1:01:03] Laura Camien: And parts of this is true, parts of this they know are true, but what's true is he had a son named Hamnet.

[1:01:11] Susan Blackwell: Not Hamlet, but Hamnet.

[1:01:14] Laura Camien: And he died when he was 11 years old.

[1:01:16] Susan Blackwell: That is true.

[1:01:18] Laura Camien: But this is where Ken really gives me some grinder.

[1:01:22] Susan Blackwell: What if he didn't?

[1:01:23] Laura Camien: Because the biggest what if he didn't in this story, it's sort of commonly believed that Shakespeare's son died of the plague at 11 years old.

[1:01:35] Susan Blackwell: And Shakespeare wasn't in town when it happened.

[1:01:42] Laura Camien: That is all true.

[1:01:44] Susan Blackwell: He was actually on his way back home from London.

[1:01:46] Laura Camien: Oh my God.

[1:01:47] Susan Blackwell: So he didn't even get the message that his son died.

[1:01:50] Laura Camien: Oh my God.

[1:01:50] Susan Blackwell: And they went ahead and buried his son.

[1:01:52] Laura Camien: So he arrives home and his son has died and buried.

[1:01:57] Susan Blackwell: So that all happens in this movie as well.

[1:02:00] Laura Camien: But it's years and years later at this time when he's retiring.

[1:02:03] Susan Blackwell: And he's like, now that he's back, he's really truly allowing himself to mourn.

[1:02:09] Laura Camien: And his family is like, well, so glad you could join us.

[1:02:12] Susan Blackwell: We mourned Hamnet's death years ago.

[1:02:15] Laura Camien: Wow.

[1:02:16] Susan Blackwell: Um, but glad you have the time now to relive this and like dredge it all back up for us.

[1:02:22] Laura Camien: And he was like, I mourned at the time.

[1:02:25] Susan Blackwell: And Judy Dench was like, at the time, you wrote Merry Wives of Windsor.

[1:02:31] Laura Camien: Which is interesting and also true.

[1:02:33] Susan Blackwell: So here he is in the movie, reliving his son's death and what he knew of it.

[1:02:42] Laura Camien: And they show his character, Shakespeare visiting the register that records like the burials at Holy Trinity Church in Stratford.

[1:02:53] Susan Blackwell: And that is true.

[1:02:54] Laura Camien: And that is the register that listed his son's death.

[1:02:58] Susan Blackwell: And Shakespeare, the character in the movie, sees his son's name among like nine people, maybe, that died in a six-month period.

[1:03:10] Laura Camien: And it's enough to get him wondering when what he knows of the plague, like the last time it came through town, 200 people died.

[1:03:22] Susan Blackwell: Yeah.

[1:03:23] Laura Camien: Um, and here his son is only one of a few people in six months.

[1:03:29] Susan Blackwell: He's starting to feel like, what if he didn't?

[1:03:33] Laura Camien: Like he didn't die of the plague.

[1:03:35] Susan Blackwell: And the storyline that he develops in this film is more of a, hey, how did he actually die?

[1:03:43] Laura Camien: And he confronts his family, and they eventually admit that they've been lying to him.

[1:03:51] Susan Blackwell: They admit that the son that he thought was a genius.

[1:03:56] Laura Camien: Hashtag spoilers.

[1:03:57] Susan Blackwell: Spoilers, sorry.

[1:04:00] Laura Camien: The son that he thought was a genius because he thought he showed like incredible writing skill.

[1:04:16] Susan Blackwell: At 11.

[1:04:17] Laura Camien: At 11, when he wasn't even writing the stuff, it was his sister that was coming up with it, and he was only writing it down because he was the one taught to write.

[1:04:29] Susan Blackwell: Right.

[1:04:30] Laura Camien: And so guilt that it wasn't even his original thought.

[1:04:34] Susan Blackwell: Wasn't his work.

[1:04:35] Laura Camien: His dad would find out that he wasn't good at all.

[1:04:39] Susan Blackwell: So Ken manages to create an entire storyline about what if?

[1:04:48] Laura Camien: Like, what if it didn't happen the way we thought it happened?

[1:04:52] Susan Blackwell: Wow.

[1:04:53] Laura Camien: What if there's more there?

[1:04:54] Susan Blackwell: And he manages to make a point about like the tragedy of female children who might also have been geniuses, never being able to be taught to read and write.

[1:05:06] Laura Camien: This reminds me also of the loss of children who didn't make it out of childhood, like the children in Bruin de Bar, that sort of thing.

[1:05:13] Susan Blackwell: That's right.

[1:05:14] Laura Camien: The potential, the lost potential.

[1:05:17] Susan Blackwell: And that loss could come through death.

[1:05:19] Laura Camien: That's right.

[1:05:20] Susan Blackwell: Or it could come through not having the support, the education, the resources, the voice to bring that natural gift to the surface and to light.

[1:05:33] Laura Camien: That's right.

[1:05:34] Susan Blackwell: That's right. How many voices like have we lost?

[1:05:37] Laura Camien: Yeah.

[1:05:37] Susan Blackwell: Um, I love how he used this sort of technique.

[1:05:44] Laura Camien: Like, here's a collective agreement we've made about a person who lived 400 years ago.

[1:05:50] Susan Blackwell: But what if it wasn't?

[1:05:52] Laura Camien: What if it didn't happen that way?

[1:05:55] Susan Blackwell: Sorry, you say it.

[1:05:56] Laura Camien: It's now it has a profundity to it, right?

[1:05:59] Susan Blackwell: I just keep hearing Rob Love's voice.

[1:06:01] Laura Camien: It's so, what if it didn't?

[1:06:03] Susan Blackwell: And so I, this spark sparked that old spark, and I think about it in terms of like using this as a creative tool.

[1:06:15] Laura Camien: Here's some other examples.

[1:06:17] Susan Blackwell: So in Kenneth's All is True movie, it was like a small crack, and he picked at it and he peeled it back and asked this very specific question among all these things that are true.

[1:06:30] Laura Camien: He asked a specific question, but what if it wasn't about one detail and took the story in another way?

[1:06:37] Susan Blackwell: But it doesn't have to be a small crack, it can be a big, big, big old thing.

[1:06:41] Laura Camien: Like there's a show on Netflix, The Man in the High Castle, which takes the idea of, but what if they didn't and applies it to World War II?

[1:06:50] Susan Blackwell: What if the Nazis didn't lose?

[1:06:52] Laura Camien: That's right.

[1:06:53] Susan Blackwell: What if the US and our allies did not win?

[1:06:56] Laura Camien: Cammy, and what if they didn't?

[1:06:58] Susan Blackwell: This spark, this spark has this long fuse.

[1:07:02] Laura Camien: But this is so good.

[1:07:04] Susan Blackwell: This is, I, I'm sparking so hard.

[1:07:07] Laura Camien: Can I say something?

[1:07:08] Susan Blackwell: Yes.

[1:07:09] Laura Camien: There's a, there's, I think it was Brian Eno, maybe made this deck of creativity cards.

[1:07:16] Susan Blackwell: And if you're ever, I think it was Brian Eno, have to double check that.

[1:07:20] Laura Camien: But if you're ever like in a creative process and you're not sure where to turn next, you like draw a card and just follow the very simple directive on the card.

[1:07:27] Susan Blackwell: And one of the things is like do the opposite.

[1:07:30] Laura Camien: That's like whatever you're doing, do the opposite.

[1:07:32] Susan Blackwell: And I've always thought that was so powerful.

[1:07:34] Laura Camien: Just be like, what is the op to discern what the opposite is of what you've been doing where you're knocking your head against a creative wall?

[1:07:41] Susan Blackwell: And this is a cousin to that, which is like, but what if it didn't?

[1:07:47] Laura Camien: What if it wasn't?

[1:07:48] Susan Blackwell: What if like it's a little bit like what if we flip it and reverse it?

[1:07:55] Laura Camien: I want to give you a few more examples and then talk further about like how you can apply it because yes to all of that.

[1:08:01] Susan Blackwell: So, uh, the movie Yesterday toyed with the idea that the Beatles were the greatest band to ever exist, but what if they didn't exist for one person?

[1:08:13] Laura Camien: Except one person.

[1:08:14] Susan Blackwell: So what if they didn't exist?

[1:08:15] Laura Camien: Yeah, their music still does.

[1:08:17] Susan Blackwell: Like that has a complexity to it.

[1:08:18] Laura Camien: Yeah, it's not that their music didn't exist, but let's say they didn't, yeah.

[1:08:22] Susan Blackwell: Then what happened?

[1:08:23] Susan Blackwell: Um, Quentin Tarantino's recent movie, Once Upon a Time in Hollywood. I think I talk about this in another episode. I'm sorry. Sorry to dwell on it. Dwell on it by mentioning it too telling me it. I can't stop. Um, but he took our collective knowledge of like what happened on the night that Charles Manson told his crew to go out and murder people in a particular house. In this case, Sharon Tate and her unborn child and anyone else that was in the house. And he tells them to go to that specific house. Well, what if they didn't? And so this entire movie is built upon we meet those characters, we meet other characters. What I never saw that movie is that yes. Okay. And they turn out to be a bit of bumbling idiots, and they go to the wrong house.

And instead of killing people, they get their asses whooped. It's a Tarantino movie. Also spoilers, sorry. But it's a completely different ending to that story. And there are a lot of plays and films and novels with what they call alternate history. And I would like to pause here and make a very clear distinction. This is not to be confused with alternative facts or alternate facts. I think that's the only thing that troubles me about this game is like when we're playing it for art to make a point, like to wonder about something.

[1:09:45] Laura Camien: That's right.

[1:09:45] Susan Blackwell: Or, but if we're using it in real time, just for as an example, flat earthers.

[1:09:52] Laura Camien: Yeah.

[1:09:53] Susan Blackwell: You could create a piece of art, an entire world, a sci-fi movie or a novel or a sculpture where the world is actually flat. And we explore the consequence of that and what it means to live on a flat earth. And that in a fictional way could be very stimulating and very interesting, but it's very different than from actually believing that. Climate change deniers, anti-vaxxers, like all of this alternative facts.

[1:10:21] Laura Camien: That's right.

[1:10:22] Susan Blackwell: Gets in real playing out in real life can have real troubling consequences. That's very negative. But I think in terms of creatively, that's it's very stimulating.

[1:10:32] Laura Camien: That's right.

[1:10:33] Susan Blackwell: That's a really good distinction, Cam's. Thanks. Thank you, Susan. I love it. But I like like the videos, I don't know if you've ever seen them, but people create videos about like what if the Sandy Hook shooting didn't really happen. I think that's using the but what if it didn't power for evil instead of for good.

[1:10:50] Laura Camien: Yeah.

[1:10:51] Susan Blackwell: So I digress. But there's a that's a that's a very, very worthwhile digression. I think it's important to be conscious of what we're using it for.

[1:10:59] Laura Camien: Yeah.

[1:11:00] Susan Blackwell: Um, so there's a million examples of how, but what if it wasn't has have been used in like storytelling.

[1:11:06] Laura Camien: Right.

[1:11:06] Susan Blackwell: Is there a name for it as a convention?

[1:11:09] Laura Camien: I think alternate reality.

[1:11:13] Susan Blackwell: Okay. Um is like a genre of things. But I think it I think there are degrees within it.

[1:11:21] Laura Camien: Yeah.

[1:11:21] Susan Blackwell: Like when I'm talking about like peppering of it and it's used for comic effect repeated in the grinder, and then you have something like the man in the high tower.

[1:11:31] Laura Camien: That's right.

[1:11:31] Susan Blackwell: That's a completely different reality. Or back to the future.

[1:11:35] Laura Camien: Back to the future.

[1:11:38] Susan Blackwell: You've it's a creative reality where time travel is possible.

[1:11:41] Laura Camien: Yeah.

[1:11:42] Susan Blackwell: Okay. Yeah.

[1:11:42] Laura Camien: Yeah.

[1:11:42] Susan Blackwell: But then you have all is true where it's like such a gray shading of like, what if something we didn't know in the first place? What if it went slightly in this direction or slightly in that direction, rather than an entire world changing? You know what I mean?

[1:11:58] Laura Camien: Yeah.

[1:11:59] Susan Blackwell: So I think um This is such an interesting sparkling. I cannot wait for you to watch the episode because I'm teeing it up. We're gonna watch that.

[1:12:06] Laura Camien: You have to watch it.

[1:12:07] Susan Blackwell: Of the grinder. You have to watch it. It's episode two of season one and it's available on uh Amazon Prime.

[1:12:15] Laura Camien: Did they do two seasons?

[1:12:16] Susan Blackwell: I think they did.

[1:12:17] Laura Camien: I can't wait to watch it.

[1:12:18] Susan Blackwell: I think they did two seasons. It's so good. And Fred Savage.

[1:12:22] Laura Camien: But I also think to your point about those cards, I also think that it can be a great exercise when you feel stuck, maybe as an actor in your scene work, maybe as a writer in your character development, like in a novel or a screenplay. I think it's really fun to question what you think you know about your character and use this question to play with it. Like if you had imagined your character as super confident, yeah, and you're playing them as like confident and cocky. What if he isn't? What if all these lines that seem confident are actually covering over enormous insecurities?

[1:12:58] Susan Blackwell: I I can't pull one out of my ass just off off the cuff, but there's I think that some great film and television performances do this, where they have a character that would typically be played in a particular way.

[1:13:13] Laura Camien: Yeah.

[1:13:13] Susan Blackwell: And a really gifted actor will be able to sort of like flip it and do it in a way that you're like, oh man, it's so um, it's not just inventive for the sake of being inventive, it feels more like real life because it isn't like what I call it's not from the island of Robert Stack, meaning it doesn't have that like high pro glow TV film polish to it.

[1:13:38] Laura Camien: That's right.

[1:13:39] Susan Blackwell: It's complexities, it's levels, yeah, and subtext. Surprising. And like another example might be like when you have a character that's supposed to make an apple pie, you assume he or she knows how to make the apple pie.

[1:13:57] Laura Camien: Yeah.

[1:13:57] Susan Blackwell: But what if she doesn't? What if every item you pick up, you have to figure out how you're how do you use this before you do it? I mean, that's an independent activity for you right there.

[1:14:09] Laura Camien: Yeah.

[1:14:10] Susan Blackwell: Um, first you have to figure out like I don't know how this batter machine works.

[1:14:16] Laura Camien: Yeah.

[1:14:17] Susan Blackwell: Just what if there are no givens, essentially?

[1:14:19] Laura Camien: Yeah.

[1:14:20] Susan Blackwell: So there's so many ways you can use, but what if it wasn't? You can dream up big, huge, alternate realities, or you can get your character unstuck in a situation, or just force yourself to think differently about a topic that you thought you knew. And I personally really like the super subtle ones because you can take a story like Shakespeare's life in All Is True, and you can still develop new stories out of old, old, old tales by simply applying that question in key places, maybe only one place, or maybe every place.

[1:14:56] Laura Camien: Yeah.

[1:14:56] Susan Blackwell: But what if they didn't? But what if they aren't? And what makes a new story?

[1:15:03] Laura Camien: I love it.

[1:15:05] Susan Blackwell: So I think that, you know, Ken did a great job in finding a part of Shakespeare's life that's less examined and very deftly weaves this like surprising new storyline in there that could possibly be true. Say it with me.

[1:15:23] Laura Camien: But what if it wasn't?

[1:15:28] Susan Blackwell: How interesting is that?

[1:15:30] Laura Camien: It's so much fun.

[1:15:31] Susan Blackwell: I went back, I've watched that episode now three more times. It study it.

[1:15:34] Laura Camien: It really, really delivers.

[1:15:40] Susan Blackwell: And I remember reading about it being canceled. I wasn't ever, you know, like I just don't watch TV in that way of like faithfully. Um, but when I discovered it, I loved it. But I I looked back and saw articles of um like everyone being shocked when it was canceled, and there was a period of time they thought they'd bring it back, and you know, all of that drama, and I guess they didn't. But the grinder, and what if it wasn't? I love it.

[1:16:05] Laura Camien: You know, another spark that I had when you were talking, something that I don't feel like we've talked a ton about on this podcast, and it may be another spark for another day. When you were talking about the life of Shakespeare, either the fictional version that Brana is presenting in that film, All is True, or the real human being who is as historically researched as possible. The thing that rang with me was the cost of creativity. What is the cost if you're William Shakespeare and you are creating the most lasting you know, considered the best writing that's ever been created, and you have this legacy that lives on until probably the zombie apocalypse.

[1:16:48] Susan Blackwell: That's right.

[1:16:49] Laura Camien: That's amazing. But what about the wife? What about the children that are still that are left, you know, kind of left behind.

[1:16:59] Susan Blackwell: It's interesting that you brought that up because again, spoilers, but he does explore in a small way through the tensions that the family feels now having him back. Um, and he's humble and apologetic for a while, and then he does have an outburst of like, are you am I expected to apologize for the amount of success that I have for this talent that I have for what I've accomplished?

[1:17:25] Laura Camien: He has an incredible clap back at someone in town.

[1:17:29] Susan Blackwell: Um, I'll let you enjoy that. An incredible classical clap back. I mean, it's amazing. I almost took it down word for word. It was fucking amazing.

[1:17:38] Laura Camien: But um I gotta watch this movie.

[1:17:40] Susan Blackwell: He has a fellow playwright um come and visit him. It's uh Ben Johnson, I think.

[1:17:46] Laura Camien: Sure.

[1:17:46] Susan Blackwell: Also also quite well known. But they have a conversation about like, hey, you've made it, and he's like, close to death at this point. He's like, Well, I don't know about that. And Ben's like, no, you did because you made it back home. He's like, Look at me, I'll be alone when I die, and who knows if my work will survive, but I'll be alone. So and so's in jail, so and so died alone, so and so lost all of his money, like all of these other ways that you can have great success and then come to an ending that's maybe not as satisfactory.

[1:18:19] Laura Camien: Yeah.

[1:18:20] Susan Blackwell: And he's like, You I'm gonna get a little bit uh choked up, but he's like, You made it home, and you're surrounded by your family and love and people who appreciate you as a person, yeah, in addition to your work.

[1:18:38] Laura Camien: He did a good job.

[1:18:39] Susan Blackwell: I mean, who knows if that actually happened, but what but if it wasn't all this true? It's it's um that is the dream though, isn't it? To I hate the tur, I really don't like the term have it all. I really don't like that. But to have a life, it's what I aspire to, to have a life where there is an enormous amount of creativity and self-expression and and also have wonderful friends and family to share it with.

[1:19:07] Laura Camien: That's right.

[1:19:08] Susan Blackwell: That's the shit.

[1:19:09] Laura Camien: That's the shit.

[1:19:10] Susan Blackwell: Yeah. And Ken really gave us a movie that lets us imagine that Shakespeare got to enjoy that in addition to his massive success. It's it's and Fred Savage and Rob Lowe gave us the grinder and many other wonderful pieces of entertainment.

[1:19:26] Laura Camien: I know I love Fred Savage. Rob Lowe, Fred Savage, thank you so much for please come on our show. We love you. Shakespeare, we'd love to have you on the Sparks File. If you're listening, please, please.

[1:19:40] Susan Blackwell: We don't know how we don't know how to do it. Can we call you Will?

[1:19:42] Laura Camien: Um, oh man, what a good spirit.

[1:19:46] Susan Blackwell: So fun. I have enjoyed this episode of the Sparks File. Um, that's it. We hope that this put another bunch of sparks in your file.

[1:19:56] Laura Camien: Hey, if there's a spark you'd like us to explore, or if you've taken a spark and fanned it into a creative flame and you've made something with it and you'd like to share that, won't you please write to us at the sparkfile at gmail.com or even better, submit it through our website, thesparkfile.com. We will even take your feedback.

[1:20:13] Susan Blackwell: We'd love it, but you know the price of admission. First, you gotta share a creative risk that you've taken recently.

[1:20:20] Laura Camien: Oh, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey!

[1:20:24] Susan Blackwell: Be sure to subscribe to this podcast wherever you get your podcasts.

[1:20:27] Laura Camien: Subscribe, rate it, five-star review it.

[1:20:30] Susan Blackwell: If you like this podcast, this is a sincere request. Please, please share it with people that you love.

[1:20:35] Laura Camien: We love making it and we work so hard on it.

[1:20:40] Susan Blackwell: And we would love it if you would share it with people who you love.

[1:20:44] Laura Camien: And if you didn't like it, what happened to you, big guy?

[1:20:49] Susan Blackwell: Who hurt you?

[1:20:52] Laura Camien: Oh my god.

[1:20:55] Susan Blackwell: Oh god.

[1:20:56] Laura Camien: If something tickles your fancy and gets your creative juices flowing, this is it right here.

[1:21:03] Susan Blackwell: We are writing you a forever permission slip to make that thing that has been knocking at your door.

[1:21:08] Laura Camien: It's your turn to take a spark and fan it into a flame.

[1:21:12] Susan Blackwell: You gotta draft it.

[1:21:14] Laura Camien: You gotta craft it.

[1:21:15] Susan Blackwell: You gotta hide a little treasure so folks can white rot a raft it.

[1:21:27] Laura Camien: I'm gonna wipe water raft it.

[1:21:30] Susan Blackwell: I barely got that out.

[1:21:31] Laura Camien: What's wrong with your finger?

[1:21:34] Susan Blackwell: When I bump into something that inspires me, I dump it in the sparkfile.

[1:21:42] Laura Camien: Spark could be something that I wanna make or how I wanna be.

[1:21:48] Susan Blackwell: I'll pump it in the spark fire.

[1:21:52] Laura Camien: Sparfies.

[1:21:53] Susan Blackwell: I jump into my sparkfies.

[1:21:58] Laura Camien: Let's open up the spark fire.