This transcript was automatically generated and might contain errors.

[0:10] Laura Camien: When I bump into something that inspires me, I jump in my spark file.

[0:18] Susan Blackwell: Spark file to be something that I wanna make or how I wanna be.

[0:23] Laura Camien: I pump it in my spark style. Spark!

[0:28] Susan Blackwell: I jump into my spark slide. Let's open up the spark file.

[0:37] Laura Camien: Welcome to the Sparks File, where we believe that everyone is creative, but smart creative people don't go it alone.

[0:43] Susan Blackwell: I'm Susan Blackwell, and we are creativity coaches who help people fear less, create more, and bring their creative visions to life.

[0:51] Laura Camien: If you are an OG member of the Sparks File community, welcome back, Sparkler.

[0:56] Susan Blackwell: If you're joining us for the first time, what? Welcome, friend.

[1:00] Laura Camien: Know that just by listening to this podcast, you are joining a warm and wonderful clan of creatives.

[1:08] Susan Blackwell: But hold up, you may be asking yourself, what exactly is a spark file?

[1:08] Laura Camien: Oh, a spark file is a place where you consistently collect all your inspirations and fascinations.

[1:17] Susan Blackwell: If you're like us and you're making stuff all the time, or you want to be making stuff all the time, you know.

[1:22] Laura Camien: If you're not careful, your campfire of creativity can flicker out.

[1:25] Susan Blackwell: Hey, don't despair.

[1:27] Laura Camien: We're collecting kindling in the form of fresh ideas, images, and inspiration that spark creativity and pique curiosity.

[1:36] Susan Blackwell: To light a fire under our collective asses to make things like this podcast.

[1:42] Laura Camien: Or a practice of allowing light and dark to commingle in your life.

[1:49] Susan Blackwell: Every episode, we're gonna reach into our spark files and exchange some sparks.

[1:54] Laura Camien: And from time to time, we're gonna talk to some folks who spark us too.

[1:57] Susan Blackwell: That means we have more sparks than we can possibly use in this lifetime.

[2:01] Laura Camien: Boy, do we ever, do we ever. So if something lights you up, we implore you, please take that thing and make something out of it.

[2:11] Susan Blackwell: Without further ado, let's open up the spark file.

[2:17] Laura Camien: It's Sparks Day, it's Sparks Day.

[2:19] Susan Blackwell: Oh, it is Sparks Day, Suze.

[2:23] Laura Camien: I love Sparks Day.

[2:25] Susan Blackwell: I love it so much.

[2:26] Laura Camien: Enjoy it.

[2:26] Susan Blackwell: I did roll out of bed with a smile on my face this morning.

[2:31] Laura Camien: You smelled sparks in the air and you thought, I did Sparks Day.

[2:31] Susan Blackwell: I did.

[2:36] Laura Camien: It's measured. You'll hear why when I tell you my spark.

[2:41] Susan Blackwell: So it's measured, like I didn't bound out of bed today, but I did get out of bed with a smile, knowing it's Sparks Day.

[2:49] Laura Camien: That's nice.

[2:50] Susan Blackwell: Uh, Laura Camien, history buff.

[2:53] Laura Camien: Yeah.

[2:54] Susan Blackwell: Lover of history. I just wanted to let you know that 20 years after the fact, after the rest of the world was talking about it around the water cooler, we are watching Band of Brothers.

[3:09] Laura Camien: Oh, oh, so good.

[3:12] Susan Blackwell: I should go back and watch that again.

[3:14] Laura Camien: Yeah.

[3:15] Susan Blackwell: It reminds me of the spark that you did, oh, so many years ago on this very podcast about your grandfather.

[3:18] Laura Camien: And guess what?

[3:27] Susan Blackwell: What?

[3:27] Laura Camien: Guess what, Suze?

[3:29] Susan Blackwell: I don't think we aired that.

[3:31] Laura Camien: I think we recorded that, and then I was like, you know what? If I was gonna talk about my grandpa, I want to do it a little bit better.

[3:38] Susan Blackwell: Oh.

[3:39] Laura Camien: And we edited it so that we only aired.

[3:43] Susan Blackwell: This is top secret, folks. Don't tell anyone.

[3:45] Laura Camien: It was the lumber gills.

[3:48] Susan Blackwell: We only aired the part about the will.

[3:50] Laura Camien: Oh my god.

[3:52] Susan Blackwell: Yeah.

[3:53] Laura Camien: Which is totally okay. I'm happy to talk about my grandpa.

[3:55] Susan Blackwell: And I will do a spark on him for sure.

[3:58] Laura Camien: Can we just tease that a little bit?

[4:01] Susan Blackwell: I hope you do.

[4:02] Laura Camien: And I think you're right.

[4:03] Susan Blackwell: First of all, a few fun facts.

[4:05] Laura Camien: Number one, Laura Camien and I recorded several episodes of this podcast that never aired because we were figuring out how to make a podcast.

[4:18] Susan Blackwell: And we were like close, close, getting warmer.

[4:22] Laura Camien: Well, yeah.

[4:22] Susan Blackwell: But we were working it out.

[4:24] Laura Camien: We were working out the act.

[4:25] Susan Blackwell: We were working out the act.

[4:27] Laura Camien: And even like what we wanted our sparks to consist of.

[4:30] Susan Blackwell: And if you can believe this, friends, this is just the most laughable thing right here.

[4:35] Laura Camien: But we even, despite knowing each other and being good friends for 20 years, we were like, well, I mean, we'll see.

[4:42] Susan Blackwell: And like, are we able to talk naturally when we put microphones in front of us, and will we be able to fill an hour's worth?

[4:49] Laura Camien: And our very first thing we sat down to record was like two hours and 20 minutes or something.

[4:55] Susan Blackwell: We're like, well, I guess we answered that question.

[4:57] Laura Camien: Longer, maybe it was crazy long.

[5:01] Susan Blackwell: So the answer was yes.

[5:04] Laura Camien: Yes.

[5:04] Susan Blackwell: I think we'll be able to chat.

[5:06] Laura Camien: We can talk and talk.

[5:08] Susan Blackwell: Talk about anything.

[5:09] Laura Camien: But just like a little, uh, just to tease hopefully what will be an upcoming spark from Laura Camien.

[5:17] Susan Blackwell: Your grandfather participated in the uh, in D-Day.

[5:22] Laura Camien: He did. My grandpa was a screaming eagle, uh, 101st airborne.

[5:28] Susan Blackwell: They jumped on D-Day.

[5:30] Laura Camien: So all those stories about like jumping from a plane that's going faster than what it should be, and it's flying lower than it should be because there was a storm that night.

[5:39] Susan Blackwell: So they had trained a certain way, and it actually then, okay, real time, it's nothing like what you trained for.

[5:46] Laura Camien: Now jump.

[5:47] Susan Blackwell: And just like Saving Private Ryan and Band of Brothers, those guys got completely dispersed across the French countryside because of that storm.

[6:00] Laura Camien: And separated from their units, separated, lost some of them, like lost all their equipment.

[6:06] Susan Blackwell: You're just like now you don't know. Am I behind enemy lines? I'm by myself.

[6:11] Laura Camien: Anyone you come upon in the dark could be the enemy, could be someone from some other area of the US army, could be a friendly, but you don't know.

[6:25] Susan Blackwell: And they could be a friendly, and they're so startled because everybody is so adrenal that they accidentally shoot you.

[6:32] Laura Camien: Like it is what? Yes.

[6:34] Susan Blackwell: Crazy.

[6:34] Laura Camien: Uh, so I don't, I know that you are going to do a beautiful spark about this at some point, but of course I thought of you.

[6:40] Susan Blackwell: I thought of your grandfather watching this, and I also I had so many thoughts about it, and we'll save it.

[6:48] Laura Camien: We'll save it for the future.

[6:49] Susan Blackwell: But well, I'm so excited because that spark, we cut that part of the spark because literally what had happened was I had kind of come in with an assumption that you at least had seen like Saving Private Ryan.

[7:03] Laura Camien: So my spark sort of started at the wrong place, like with a false assumption.

[7:09] Susan Blackwell: And so I was like, all right. So remember that thing in Saving and you were like, no.

[7:13] Laura Camien: And I will just want to say the reason I haven't seen that, and it's one of the reasons I have to Band of Brothers is it's hard.

[7:21] Susan Blackwell: Like it's not an easy watch.

[7:23] Laura Camien: It is a brutal, I think, realistic, I'm guessing, but it seems like a very realistic and brutal depiction of what it's like to be one of those soldiers.

[7:38] Susan Blackwell: Mm-hmm.

[7:39] Laura Camien: So I hadn't seen it because I didn't think my heart could take it.

[7:42] Susan Blackwell: And that's okay.

[7:43] Laura Camien: No apology needed.

[7:44] Susan Blackwell: I just, uh, like that was the first time actually in our creation of this podcast that I realized, oh, Blackwell doesn't know history.

[7:51] Laura Camien: No, that's not at all my takeaway.

[7:54] Susan Blackwell: I just was like, oh, I can't come, you know, like we can't start our sparks at a place where we're assuming something.

[8:01] Laura Camien: Yeah.

[8:01] Susan Blackwell: But you know, the rest of the world, you could assume that of probably like 98% of Americans had taken in those, those were massive hits, like those were big film and television events, and so 20 years later I'm catching up.

[8:16] Laura Camien: And I just had to tell you, I've been slowly taking it in, and it's, uh, it's a lot, and it's fascinating, and it makes me think of you and your grandfather.

[8:28] Susan Blackwell: Thank you.

[8:29] Laura Camien: I, uh, I'm actually writing this down because I need to remember this.

[8:33] Susan Blackwell: Is a good one to go back and watch.

[8:35] Laura Camien: Where is it playing now?

[8:36] Susan Blackwell: Is it on HBO Max?

[8:37] Laura Camien: Oh, HBO, okay.

[8:39] Susan Blackwell: Yeah, it was produced for HBO and it still lives on their fine network.

[8:44] Laura Camien: Interesting.

[8:45] Susan Blackwell: So, but it reminds me also, again, not to jump your spark, but it reminds me of our friends in Ukraine who are just fighting, just, yeah, fighting, fighting for their country, and what that might look like.

[9:03] Laura Camien: Now the weapons have changed, the technology is probably advanced, but uh, at the end of the day, just the terror and the stress and the senselessness and the brutality.

[9:16] Susan Blackwell: It's very intense.

[9:18] Laura Camien: And it is similar in that it took, you know, three plus years for the US to join World War II.

[9:25] Susan Blackwell: So there were countries and people who were like literally imploring and begging, please help us.

[9:35] Laura Camien: That's right.

[9:36] Susan Blackwell: Anyway, just wanted to share that with you.

[9:38] Laura Camien: I, uh, I'm catching up slowly but surely, 20 years later.

[9:42] Susan Blackwell: Proud of you.

[9:43] Laura Camien: Thanks.

[9:43] Susan Blackwell: Thanks, Cam.

[9:45] Laura Camien: Do you have a spark for me?

[9:48] Susan Blackwell: I do have a spark for you today.

[9:50] Laura Camien: And in a weird way, I should remember like when we wrap up this spark, like what these things that you just touched upon are not unrelated to the spark, actually.

[10:02] Susan Blackwell: But let me dig in.

[10:04] Laura Camien: I'm gonna tell you that my spark today is really brought to you thanks to my friend Corey.

[10:10] Susan Blackwell: And you know Corey, actually, Suze, you know Corey because we always quote Corey to each other.

[10:16] Laura Camien: Like among the many gems of learning that I have gotten from Corey is the idea that it's all information.

[10:22] Susan Blackwell: Oh, yes.

[10:23] Laura Camien: We quote that all the time to each other.

[10:25] Susan Blackwell: I don't know if we talk about it on this podcast yet, but when someone says something to you and you're like, oh my god, Laura Camien's like, it's all information.

[10:25] Laura Camien: It's all information.

[10:34] Susan Blackwell: I got that from Corey.

[10:35] Laura Camien: The idea really sometimes we also translate it into that's news you can use, but it's all information, which is to say, like when things are going on around us and we make observations about people, how they handle things, things they say, what their actions say about how they handle things.

[10:54] Susan Blackwell: Rather than taking it all in on the emotional level, Corey will say, it's all information.

[11:00] Laura Camien: Thank you for that gem, Corey.

[11:02] Susan Blackwell: So good, Corey.

[11:03] Laura Camien: So one of the many things, but it's just such a good reminder that we don't need to respond emotionally to everything.

[11:10] Susan Blackwell: And as highly sensitive and emotional people, one way you could operate is by responding emotionally to everything.

[11:17] Laura Camien: Yeah.

[11:17] Susan Blackwell: But no, no, no, we don't have to.

[11:18] Laura Camien: We can just file that information away.

[11:22] Susan Blackwell: So my friend Corey, she's super smart.

[11:25] Laura Camien: She's like off the charts EQ, empathy and intelligence.

[11:30] Susan Blackwell: She has a very, very fancy entertainment job, and she's a trained coach.

[11:35] Laura Camien: She's just amazing.

[11:36] Susan Blackwell: So this past week, I got to see Corey in person in real life for the first time in two years.

[11:45] Laura Camien: And honestly, yeah.

[11:47] Susan Blackwell: Like, uh, just seeing Corey, like just getting a big hug was almost enough.

[11:54] Laura Camien: It was almost enough to like burst into tears then and obviously now.

[11:58] Susan Blackwell: It was so good.

[11:58] Laura Camien: It was so good for my soul.

[12:00] Susan Blackwell: But to be honest, like I was having some trepidation about meeting Corey, not because of Corey, but because of me, because I was kind of questioning my ability to be present and in the moment because this week has been really hard.

[12:16] Laura Camien: I'm gonna get a little personal here, but in addition to everything going on in the world, I found out that a friend of mine from college had passed away suddenly and unexpectedly.

[12:27] Susan Blackwell: And Suze, you know this better than anyone.

[12:30] Laura Camien: Um, it just really blew me sideways.

[12:33] Susan Blackwell: And I really, really struggled.

[12:34] Laura Camien: So as much as I wanted to be able to absorb the news and just keep moving, I actually had a moment where I stopped and I thought, fuck that.

[12:43] Susan Blackwell: Like it isn't right to just keep moving. Maria deserves a moment or more than a moment. Like I should be struggling with this. It's absolutely right for me to take time and remember and acknowledge and celebrate Maria's life. How did we get pushed into accepting that we just need to keep moving? We just keep being productive no matter what.

[13:05] Laura Camien: Well, uh Susan, I uh it's on my mind because we were just talking about it and I've been watching it, but watching Band of Brothers.

[13:13] Susan Blackwell: Yeah. This all goes back to Band of Brothers.

[13:16] Laura Camien: No, but watching that, these insane things happen to people, like death occurs two inches from them.

[13:25] Susan Blackwell: Yeah. And it's like, go, go, go, soldier, go, go, go. And I think that that like gotta keep moving. I just think this drive for like productivity and sometimes suck it up buttercup, we get a fair dose of that in our culture, I guess is what I'm trying to say.

[13:40] Laura Camien: We really do. And I mean, uh historically, if you look, one of the things I I guess we could point to about organized religion that maybe was a good thing, and that there was uh mourning, there was grieving, and there was uh there was a socially acceptable period of time where everyone understood you're in mourning.

[14:02] Susan Blackwell: And like a ritual built around it.

[14:04] Laura Camien: That's right. That's right. And it just feels like, and maybe maybe when we do a spark about maybe when we do the one on my grandpa, we could talk about World War II and the like the productivity, the industrial like revolution and the the productivity that continued after World War II with the various inventions that happened thanks to a war. Um, and that was like everyone needs to be making building all the time. But why there's no time for grief now, like it really really frustrates me in this time of loss that like so many people have lost so much in the last couple of years. And there's no time, there's no permission to take a moment.

[14:50] Susan Blackwell: And so if you don't mind indulging me here for a minute, I would like to share a few thoughts about my friend Maria Santucci and a group of us um from K State, Kansas State University. Go Wildcats.

[15:06] Laura Camien: Good job, Seuss.

[15:07] Susan Blackwell: Thanks. We got together for a celebration of life via Zoom a few days ago, and I was so grateful for that opportunity to swap stories and laugh and cross.

[15:18] Laura Camien: That's awesome.

[15:19] Susan Blackwell: Yeah. And you know, before the pandemic, I don't know that a Zoom memorial would have been something that anyone would even really consider doing.

[15:28] Laura Camien: Of course.

[15:29] Susan Blackwell: And so I saw a bunch of people that I hadn't seen in 20 years.

[15:33] Laura Camien: Wow.

[15:34] Susan Blackwell: And so we cried and we laughed and we remembered Maria. And one of the things, and this is probably just one of the frankly most surface-level things, to be honest, that I can say about Maria Santucci is that she was one of the best actors any of us had ever seen in our lives at that time, and that holds true, honestly, even as I've traveled the world and seen God knows how many shows. She was an artist with a capital A. She could sing, dance, improvise, improvise in Shakespearean pantameter. She could drink, she could paint. She had the most exquisitely unique imagination. And on top of that, Suze, she was so mysterious. Not intentionally so, but none of us really understood where this mystical creature had come from and why the hell she was here in Kansas with all of us.

[16:37] Laura Camien: Go Wildcats.

[16:38] Susan Blackwell: Yes. Go Wildcats. But we learned over time. Maria had gone to school in Kuwait. She went to high school in Kuwait. She had traveled the world. I think her father had been in the Army Corps of Engineers.

[16:51] Laura Camien: Oh.

[16:52] Susan Blackwell: Which is what had brought them then to Kansas. But she was like this exotic alien. She was so confident and so captivating and also so innocent. Like she didn't understand a lot of our customs. Like she didn't have a prompt, for example, because she didn't go. You know, just US high schools have some strange things. And so just little things like that like legitimately confused her. So she was so worldly and so down to earth at the same time. I think that half of what we all learned in college, all of us, we learned from Maria, truly, like on stage and off.

[17:36] Laura Camien: On stage, we were mesmerized by her. She could hold an audience in rapt silence. Her energy could be felt in the back row of any theater. She could raise an eyebrow or lift one finger and get a laugh. I mean, it was truly amazing and worthy of study.

[17:57] Susan Blackwell: Oh, here's a quick story. This is not the most interesting thing or the greatest accomplishment of Maria Santucci, but I promise there is a larger point to this. One year we all went to ACTF. I think it was in Minneapolis that year. And one of our shows had been nominated. So a bunch of us were there. It was a big trip. It was very exciting that we had been selected, and to travel there was a really big deal. And Maria had been nominated for the Irene Ryan acting competition.

[18:26] Laura Camien: Oh, so fancy.

[18:28] Susan Blackwell: So fancy. She was older, like she was older than me, but I didn't know anything about any of this, genuinely. So I was in awe, and I just observed her every move. We all did, frankly. But she moved through the rounds with such grace and such confidence. It was like she was light years older than us, honestly. But we knew she wasn't, she couldn't be. But we were just in awe. So Maria made the final round, and we were so proud to watch her because that's when like the auditorium's filled with everyone who's there. And it's the top five women, the top five men. We all went wild when she won the whole fucking thing.

[19:09] Laura Camien: Really?

[19:10] Susan Blackwell: Yeah. She won the whole fucking thing. She took it all. Wow. She took it all. And her monologue was legendary. We still quote it among friends. Like anytime we get together, there's a moment at least where we have to like quote the monologue and one of her moves.

[19:26] Laura Camien: And what was what did she do? Do you remember?

[19:29] Susan Blackwell: It was from one of the lesser known Shakespeare plays. It was this monologue that describes Marcus Aurelius. And it was everything you want a monologue to be, of course, in a competition because it had this like deep down, like guttural in her belly, and then it had this light and like beautiful, loving description of him. Like it had like ups and downs vocally and physically, and it was just like it was everything. And of course, I think it was actually kind of pieced together. I don't, I remember now people being like, that wasn't unusual, but it worked, but it worked. I think one of our college professors had pieced together, like technically, these two lines aren't said by this person, but it could go with this.

[20:18] Laura Camien: It was amazing.

[20:19] Susan Blackwell: So would it be Julia Caesar, maybe? No, I know it was a female character because she's describing him as though she's like she's in love with him, but also, oh, does she hate him? I don't know. I don't know. But it had it had like all that range of emotion.

[20:37] Laura Camien: Yeah.

[20:37] Susan Blackwell: But I remember something about the moon and the stars. But it's like, shall they hoist me up? I don't know. I can't remember anything but that. Listen, I won't subject you to it on this, but we overact that moment because even like all of us, we're like doing our very best to make that moment work, and we're dying of laughter because we can't, but Maria could. She could carry the weight of something like that. She was amazing.

[21:01] Laura Camien: She was amazing.

[21:02] Susan Blackwell: And then I think she paired it with like some Christopher Durang comedy over the top comedy. I mean, it was amazing.

[21:08] Laura Camien: Yes.

[21:09] Susan Blackwell: So when she won the whole damn thing, we were beyond ourselves. We were crazy excited. I mean, my experience growing up in Kansas, as I have mentioned before, is that overall we didn't really expect those things to happen to us. Like surely there were other people on the East Coast or the West Coast that were superior to anything that we could do. But here was Maria Bucking Santucci bringing home the big prize on behalf of our little school and our unknown drama program.

[21:46] Laura Camien: It's a big deal.

[21:47] Susan Blackwell: It is a big deal. And I think that Maria showed us inadvertently that there was so much more possible for all of us than we had even allowed ourselves to imagine. And she had the legitimacy to show us this because like she had seen the world. She had seen the world. And she deemed all of us worthy of being in it and of taking up space in it. I don't know, maybe that seems like a thing that doesn't need to be learned, but my young, impressionable mind needed to know it.

[22:26] Laura Camien: Yeah.

[22:26] Susan Blackwell: Maybe it's a Midwestern thing. I don't know. Maybe it was more specific to my family stories, really. I I don't know. And I don't want to say it's a everyone feels this way, but these moments can be really pivotal turning points for young people. And Maria provided it for me without a doubt.

[22:44] Laura Camien: Yeah.

[22:44] Susan Blackwell: I suddenly knew there was a big world out there, and there was a place for me in it. And I'm allowed to take up space without apology.

[22:53] Laura Camien: Yeah.

[22:53] Susan Blackwell: So on stage and off, Maria taught us new things and showed us all a different way to see the world. She also saw our world in a different way. And she reflected that back to us so we could see sort of the humor and the absurdity and some of the things that we kind of had always taken for granted. Maria Santucci was a gift. And she was inspirational and she was aspirational. I'm so grateful that I got to spend even a tiny bit of time with her while on this earth. I just wanted to take a moment to have said that. And thank you so much for allowing me to do that, because I do think it's important to remember and honor, you know, the people that we love and to take the time to do it, maybe stop pushing for a second to just say, yeah, I can carve out this time.

[23:43] Laura Camien: So this week when I met with Corey, all of this was weighing heavily on me.

[23:50] Susan Blackwell: Yes.

[23:50] Laura Camien: And so of course, Corey being the beautiful and wonderful friend that she is, I just told her the truth. I mean, instead of telling her, I'm doing great, everything's fine. I told her about Maria's passing and how I'd really been struggling all week. I've been teary, which I recognize is not entirely unusual. But I was also like extra teary. Extra, extra teary. And I also felt like kind of clingy with Wes, like I'm suddenly afraid of losing everyone that I love.

[24:23] Susan Blackwell: Yeah.

[24:23] Laura Camien: And I like I wasn't sleeping well. Felt like I couldn't get anything done, like I'm moving in slow motion. I can't get motivated. Just a constant, desperate need for an escape. Like all day, I would suffer through trying to just accomplish one thing, just one foot in front of the other. And then at night, I should go to sleep, but I can't stop watching anything that takes place in like another world, like preferably historical.

[24:51] Susan Blackwell: Yeah.

[24:52] Laura Camien: Like I re-watch the Tudor's Outlander Game of Thrones, you know, the real historical stuff.

[24:58] Susan Blackwell: Yeah.

[25:00] Laura Camien: That's when I always joke about that. I can't, I couldn't, I couldn't resist. We're always just like, you know, back in the Game of Thrones times. Like those didn't happen. Anyway, it's so obvious, I guess, that I'm looking for a way to disconnect from the pain of what is happening in the world right now.

[25:17] Laura Camien: You know, we talked last week about or a couple weeks ago about the Ukraine, the laws being passed in Florida and in Texas and the reopening of the world, the loss of my friends, and on and on. And so I pour my heart out to Corey, and you know what happened? Uh, Corey gave me the best gift. She pointed me toward the latest episode of Brene Brown's podcast, Unlocking Us, with Karen Walrond as her guest, who is apparently, I don't know. Um, but apparently, according to them, she's a dear friend of Brene's. She wrote the Lightmaker's Manifesto, How to Work for Change Without Losing Your Joy. So here I am having a conversation with my dear friend. And she shares with me the beauty of this conversation between dear friends. And now I'm passing it along to you, Suze, my dear friend.

[26:10] Susan Blackwell: Nice.

[26:10] Laura Camien: Nice. And I highlight the friendship part because when I listen to the episode, it is so heart-opening and so honest as only conversations with real friends can be, I think. In much the same way as you know, it totally mirrored how I sat down to talk with Corey. Renee opens up this conversation with Karen Walrond, totally honest. She admits she's been truly struggling lately. Things have been hard. And she says, like, I'm not falling apart, but I am perpetually not okay. And every time I get the earth under my feet a little bit, it starts to move again. And oh God, I was like, yes, yes. She describes all of it from you know, COVID to marriage stress, and her parents are older, and that brings new stress and all of this stuff all the way through the same thing, you know, the invasion of the Ukraine and the laws in Texas, which is where she lives.

And she said that she feels like when something good does happen, something as small as her son like scoring a goal at a soccer game, that it isn't okay for her to like jump up and get excited. It's not okay to access joy with all of this going on. And Karen Walrund was the perfect guest for this because she's a lawyer, she's a leadership coach, an activist. She has made it her business to help people find their purpose in life and to live with intention. As she said on the podcast, when she wrote her book, The Light Maker's Manifesto, she interviewed a lot of people and a lot of people who make activism their lives' work. It's what they do for a living. And she said the thing that became really apparent is that in order to have longevity in the work, there has to have a rhythm to it.

There is an ebb and a flow. Perhaps that's the natural order of things. Literally, it is nature. It is natural. We have ebbing and flowing tides, we have waxing and waning moons, we have seasons. Of course, all of this, this whole section of their conversation reminded me of wintering and that that spark that you shared.

[28:17] Susan Blackwell: Yeah.

[28:18] Laura Camien: Which is kind of like allowing yourself to have different seasons.

[28:22] Susan Blackwell: Yeah, that's right.

[28:23] Laura Camien: Catherine May's book, Wintering, it really is about when you talk about Laura, you're grieving. And at the same time, you're like, gotta get yep, gotta go, gotta do what I would do in the course of a normal span of a week or two weeks or a month or whatever. Instead of just acknowledging the reality of where you're really at and how that is impacting your energy and your rhythms.

[28:50] Susan Blackwell: That's right.

[28:51] Laura Camien: And letting that be okay.

[28:54] Susan Blackwell: Yeah.

[28:54] Laura Camien: And Walrund goes on to say sometimes you have to go in hard and you fight, and sometimes you have to stop. We inhale, we exhale, everything has a rhythm. And you can have all of these things, but you also have to be able to stop. You have to be able to regenerate. She even says that if she were to rewrite her book over again, she would move the chapters on self-compassion and self-care to the very front of the book. She said, Because based on everything she's learned, she thinks that we need to front load them. And I really loved this part of the conversation because literally in my 50th year on the planet, I'm finally embracing and understanding the concept of self-compassion, genuinely. I would I I think I would hear that and would be like, uh-huh, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. That doesn't work for me. Like being kind of hard on myself works for me. Uh-huh. You know, pushing myself works for me. Uh-huh. So, you softies, uh, go be compassionate. You know what I mean?

[29:56] Susan Blackwell: Yes.

[29:56] Laura Camien: And of course, like I said, eventually I come to the conclusion like, oh wow, what could self-compassion do for me? And Karen Walrund says that basically the trouble is we start to think about self-care and self-compassion once we're already spent. I'm embarrassed to say that.

[30:18] Susan Blackwell: Oh, yes, of course.

[30:20] Laura Camien: I felt called out. I yeah.

[30:22] Susan Blackwell: Yeah.

[30:23] Laura Camien: Because that, like I just said, even that was progress for me. And like, well, this is amazing to even like come to a conclusion of like, oh, you know what I need is some self-compassion. But I'm getting there only after I have depleted all of my resources.

[30:40] Susan Blackwell: Oh my gosh, that's amazing.

[30:43] Laura Camien: So her point is that thinking about self-care when we're already depleted is possibly too late. We need to front load it. And in doing so, it's like filling the tank, storing up energy to go and change the world or go and do good things in the world. And when we talk about what do we make of this, which we'll do in a few minutes, but I'm gonna share a few like real intangible ways that she suggests that we fill up on beauty and goodness. But before I do that, the goodness of Brene Brown's podcast, Unlocking Us, just kept on giving because after I checked out this episode that Corey told me about, the very next episode, Sue's you're gonna love this. It was a conversation with Susan Cain, who you sparked us with a while back.

She wrote the book Quiet, which was all about the power of introverts. Well, Susan Cain has a new book coming out called Bittersweet, How Sorrow and Longing Make Us Whole. And of course, at this point, I am thinking I am in the right place. I am listening to the right podcast. Right where I need to be in the right moment. So Bittersweet is not out yet. You can pre-order it. By the time this episode airs, it might be out. But she has the TED Talk called The Hidden Power of Sad Songs and Rainy Days, which is a bit of a precursor to the book, Bittersweet. And of course, we have this interview with Brene Brown. So Susan Cain said her definition of bittersweet is the recognition that light and dark and joy and sorrow are always going to coexist. And that's what life is. And it's an awareness of passing time. It's an awareness of the impermanence of life, but it's also a kind of piercing joy at how incredibly gorgeous and beautiful life is.

[33:07] Laura Camien: I mean, maybe it's just me and my sensitive soul creative type, but to me, this is the reason to create. She goes on to say, we are creatures who are born to transform pain into beauty, because one thing is certain we're all going to experience pain at some point. Probably we all have already, like some kind of profound pain. There's two things we can do with that. One thing is to not really acknowledge it, and then we end up consciously or unconsciously taking it out on other people through abuse or passive aggression or whatever it is for us sidebar, that's a phenomenon we like to call hurt people hurt people. And then the other thing we can do is accept that pain as part of life too, and what we can do to transform it into something else, into some kind of healing state to somehow turn it into beauty.

She says she went on this quest to really understand all of this. And there is, of course, a 2000 year tradition of artists and musicians and writers, all the poets. They've been trying to tell us all this is what makes us uniquely human. This is what connects us as human beings. And in her TED talk, Susan Cain talks about this ancient and universal feeling that the author C.S. Lewis called the inconsolable longing for what we do not know. The best way to describe it, according to Cain, is to think about why we love sad songs and sad music. According to this TED Talk, people play happy songs on their playlist an average of 175 times, but they play sad songs an average of 800 times. Woo! And they tell researchers that they associate sad music with beauty and wonder and transcendence.

The so-called sublime emotions. In many cases, the sad songs make us feel better. And Susan Cain questions why are sad songs so uplifting? I will tell you, Suze, I used to sit alone in a room listening to sad songs, crying, emoting. And I always thought I did it because in a dark room by myself, I was allowed to feel my feelings. When in the world, I was told, you're too sensitive, pull yourself together, lighten up, or any combination of those comments. But with sad songs, I felt relief, and I was relieved of any expectation that my feelings would be contained or needed to be contained. I felt the opposite of containment. I felt expansive. So Susan Cain's theory is that we listen to this music because we're trying to capture that state of longing, that joy that is laced with sorrow, often triggered when we experience something so exquisite that it seems to come to us from some other world.

[36:25] Susan Blackwell: Maria was from another world entirely.

[36:45] Laura Camien: Status because they are the ones who bring us the breath of magic from that other place. This was like a bomb for my soul. Just thinking about Maria's performances, her artwork, the way we all exalted her, just like so many performers that we know and we love, they're the ones who bring us the breadth of magic from that other place. And as artists and creatives, I think we long to bring the breadth of magic from that other place, to share it with others. Beautiful works of art break our hearts, I think. And Susan Cain says, our broken hearts connect us to each other. It's actually that pain that connects us to each other. I love this so much because I always describe the feeling of sharing creative work as cracking open our chest, revealing our heart to another person or people, and hoping they see it, embrace it, accept it, connect with it.

[37:51] Laura Camien: And all of this is great. I keep coming back to this. This is all great, but modern culture does not celebrate this idea of sharing our feelings or feeling the pain. It tells us to smile, to toughen up buttercup, get over it, move on, or just hurry up and get back to work, frankly. We don't have time for you to be feeling these feelings. And I felt that all week. I'm not allowed to take a moment to feel these feelings. As Susan Cain and Brené Brown said on the podcast, this culture is all about what is going well, what's next. And anything that isn't going well is a detour from the main road. And really, the pain is not a detour from the main road. The pain is part of the main road. And I really felt very thankful to have tuned into this on this week.

And you know, again, thanks to Corey. But I think this is what I felt this week. There wasn't a moment to stop. It was a relentless list of things that needed to get done. It seemed like I would cry, feel some pain, and think basically, but I have to get back on the main road. But I have to get back to the main thing. Right? Right? Like this is just some like, ugh, but let me get back on track. But I did stop. I just decided I was going to stop, and it was going to have to be okay. I didn't always feel like it was okay to stop and let grief and sorrow just sweep over me. But it has to be okay. We have to make it okay because it is all part of life. It's all part of the main road. Light and dark coexist.

And I do believe we have to let ourselves feel all of it based on listening to Brené Brown and Karen Walrond and Susan Cain. I don't think I'm alone, obviously. I think there's millions of others who are feeling things deeply and looking for a way through and a way to accept the way the world is right now, feel our feelings about it, and still look for joy and still look for beauty. If you're a creative, if you're listening to this podcast, I highly suspect you are. Got me crazy, but I think you just might be. You're looking for a way to make something of it all that will bring more light and more goodness into the world. Am I right? I feel like that's what we all want to do. So what do we make of it?

What do we make of it? Number one is I think we make works of profound sadness and beauty. Break our hearts. Use all of the pain. Use all of it. It is not a detour, it is the main road. Like Marcus Aurelius said, a blazing fire makes flame and brightness out of everything that is thrown into it. Thank you, Jenny Steingart for sharing that quote with us. Thank you, Jenny. But use it all. If you are on a mission to create something and you feel you've been on a detour due to any number of circumstances, the pandemic or loss or pain, please use it. Know that it is part of the path, not a detour from the path. Now, so that's first and foremost. Here's some other things that we can make of the information that I just shared.

If you listen to Karen Walrond and Brené Brown, you make a relentless practice of gratitude, a daily listing of all that is good. We must. I think of this as similar to how we rewire our brains in regard to resistance or in regard to the imposter syndrome. In those cases, we have to make a practice of hearing the good things about ourselves, keeping a file of evidence of our value and our achievements in the world, strengthening the muscle that advocates for our own self-worth rather than focusing on the negative. It's just the same way when we think of the world. It has been proven that even though we say we would like to hear good news in the world, there are infinitely more clicks on articles that are about doom and gloom than there are clicks on happy stories of like local heroes and people who are helping and success stories.

And as long as those stories get more clicks, more of them will be written. We must focus our attention on the good things that are happening in the world. Maybe it's Instagram channels, like @goodnews, or maybe you just start with what's right in front of you, what is around you. Are you healthy? Is your body strong and capable? Do you have loved ones around you? Do you have a warm, dry place to sleep at night? Do you have enjoyment? And on and on. And I'm not saying that this is no, this is not a replacement for the sad feelings. This is not to like intercept them and change them. Like I you we still need to feel the sad feelings, but in order to not be overwhelmed with what's going on in the world, Karen Walrond writes in her journal every morning and prays every night religiously.

And her prayers consist of being thankful for things that are good in the world. And she makes a point that if we don't have a practice when times are good, if we don't have a practice of doing this when times are good, it's very unlikely that we will develop a practice when times are tough. So my friends get started noticing the good. Sidebar, but important to note, Karen is actually speaking from experience here. She lost her entire home and her belongings to a hurricane. And her gratitude practice got her through on the very first night without a home. Some neighbors that she had never met took her in and took her family in. She wrote in her journal that night, as part of her practice, I'm grateful for strangers who are willing to care for my family. And had she not already established that practice, she said she thought it was very unlikely that she would have had that perspective on that night. Oh man. Right? Yeah.

[44:01] Susan Blackwell: Yeah. So for me, this week, having the celebration of life for Maria was also a version of this, and I'm grateful for it. It was taking the time to dedicate to thinking about and listening and sharing all of the good that we felt about knowing Maria and all the gratitude we felt for getting the gift of Maria in our lives. One other thing that we could do to keep ourselves focused on the good in our lives, and this came from Brené and Karen as well. You could challenge yourself with a simple goal, such as, I'm gonna take one photo every day of something I think is beautiful. That's it. You can post it or share it, or don't post it or share it, just keep it to yourself. But whenever you're feeling down and slightly convinced that everything sucks, you can just open up your photos on your phone and scroll through all that is beautiful.

This is obvious, and we've talked about it before, but you can take a media break too. Just know that it is okay. It's okay to take a break from the news or put yourself on a media diet of only 15 minutes per day, etc. You're empowered to do what you need to do to keep yourself and your psyche healthy. Karen Walrond also talks about her specific journaling process. And there's many ways you can do it, of course, and we've talked about many, and you and I think do different forms of journaling. But here's her process in case it's useful. And you can listen to Brené Brown's Unlocking Us for the full story, of course. But Walrond journals on three questions each day. How can I feel connected today?

How can I feel healthy today? How can I feel purposeful today? Connected, healthy, purposeful. So it might be, you know, she said, like, some days, how can I feel healthy today? Might be going to the gym or going for a run or whatnot. But it also might be I'm gonna drink extra water today, or I'm gonna allow myself a half hour nap, you know, in the middle of the day, whatever. There's a lot of ways you can feel healthy today. Another thing we might make of this is to give ourselves permission to sit in a dark room listening to sad songs, feeling our feelings. Can we remember that the pain points are the same as our passion points? We feel pain about those things that matter to us. My friendships matter, and Maria's passing reminded me that I need to reconnect with people who I think of often, but I don't reach out to enough.

My pain point was that I had not told Maria how much I learned from her or how much I appreciated her. I just always assumed that we would reconnect. So I feel pain, which points me in the direction of taking some action so that I don't make the same mistake with other friends. We can all read Karen Walrond's book, The Light Maker's Manifesto, How to Work for Change Without Losing Your Joy. We can read Susan Cain's book when it comes out, Bittersweet, How Longing and Sorrow Make Us Whole. And we can continue to make works of art that create beauty out of sorrow that break our hearts and connect us all. Susan Cain says that heartache unexpectedly brings us closer to the sublime beauty of life. And I have to say, after the week that I have had and the pain that I've experienced, I am counting on it, Susan Cain. I am counting on it.

[47:27] Laura Camien: Oh, Laura. That is a beautiful spark.

[47:33] Susan Blackwell: Thanks, friend. So many gems in what you are sharing. First, I just want to say I'm so sorry for your loss.

[47:34] Laura Camien: Thanks.

[47:44] Susan Blackwell: Maria, I never met Maria, but I know a lot about Maria through your telling of her. And I'm just reminded that not all amazing people are well-known people.

[47:59] Laura Camien: Oh my God. No.

[48:01] Susan Blackwell: You know what I mean? Like just these extraordinary humans and creatives. I always think like what a gift, what a treasure it is to know some of these people in our lifetimes.

[48:13] Laura Camien: Oh my God.

[48:14] Susan Blackwell: And Susan, what a terrible barometer of excellence in humans. Fame.

[48:14] Laura Camien: Oh.

[48:20] Susan Blackwell: Fame is just a terrible. And we have been sold that bill of goods as though like this is some measure of a person. It's a measure of something for sure, but it's not a measure of a human being.

[48:33] Laura Camien: Yeah. Another, what do we make of it is when something like this happens, and I was thinking about you getting together with that friend group for a celebration of life for Maria, so many memories are knocked loose. And it's a great time to open up your spark file and start catching them.

[48:52] Susan Blackwell: That's right. Because, you know, little sparks and little memories are fleeting. And it's raining sparks around times like this.

[49:01] Laura Camien: It is raining sparks.

[49:03] Susan Blackwell: Yeah. I feel like times like this, it's a bit to this Susan Cain and the themes of her new book. Times like this when we are all up in our feelings, whether that's we've suffered a loss, we've suffered a breakup, whatever precipitates it, it really does for me anyway. It brings to life, like I hear songs and I'm like, oh God, I've heard that song 100 times. Yes. That's what it means. Like you can hear things in different ways because there's a layer of protection. Your shields are down a little bit. And yes. And I just think it's a very fertile. I'm not saying that you have to be productive in your creativity, but it's a fertile time to open up your spark file and open up your heart. And as an artist and as a creative, I think it's just a really, really special time.

[49:58] Laura Camien: I agree. And I also feel like there is a way that we can give ourselves permission to braid the two things together, the light and the dark, so that they're walking side by side down this main path rather than this is a sad dark period. And this is a joyful period. They are braided together, they are intertwined.

[50:23] Laura Camien: And instead of seeing it as like I need to stop, stop and be sad, which I did say or just earlier, I did give myself permission to stop. But rather, like instead, couldn't it be like I give myself permission to continue to move forward, maybe at a slower pace with this pain.

[50:40] Susan Blackwell: Yeah.

[50:41] Laura Camien: So if we need to have this meeting, I'm having this meeting with pain here with me.

[50:45] Susan Blackwell: Yeah.

[50:46] Laura Camien: Pain is here. If we're gonna record this episode. If we're gonna do this podcast, yeah, it's gonna have the pain. Then I'm like, I'm not gonna pretend that the pain isn't here, it's here, and it's woven in with joy and gratitude. I'm so thankful there isn't a single thing that I do every day for the Sparks File that I don't love doing. As you know, I get to and I get to work with fucking Susan Blackwell. And oh, she's the best. She's the fucking best. And I love it. I love my business partner, I love our clients. I love all of that, and the pain was here with me at the same time.

[51:19] Susan Blackwell: Yeah, that makes so much sense. When you were talking about the work of Karen Walrond with the Lightmaker's Manifesto, Catherine May with Wintering, Susan Cain with her new book, Bittersweet, all of these thought leaders and Brene Brown, I think so many of these people and so many of these concepts are giving us permission. So much of this stuff is about giving us permission to experience our lives in a full way, not just like the primary path in my life is productivity and work. And these other things are uh, you know what I mean? It's like you get to winter when you're in a wintering season.

[52:06] Laura Camien: That's right.

[52:06] Susan Blackwell: You get to have the bittersweet times, you get to, yeah, you know, if you want to survive being an activist, it is part of it. And here are some other things you can think about to make sure that you don't completely like flame out.

[52:20] Laura Camien: Yeah, it's so interesting too because these conversations that these women have brought forward. Susan Cain and Brene Brown talk about it. When Susan Cain wrote her book Quiet about introverts and the power of introverts, that was not a conversation that was happening.

[52:38] Susan Blackwell: Yeah.

[52:39] Laura Camien: Yeah. And I would say they didn't say this, but I would say that when Brene Brown came out with her research on vulnerability, vulnerability was not a conversation people were having. And they literally put the pain into the light and said, Hey, let's all take a look at this. Let's all talk about this.

[53:00] Susan Blackwell: Mm-hmm.

[53:01] Laura Camien: Yeah, they changed, I think they changed everything I can say for little sensitive soul empaths.

[53:07] Susan Blackwell: Yeah.

[53:08] Laura Camien: You know what I mean? We all have her to thank. You know, Susan Cain, uh Maida Wagner's Five Creative Types. Susan Cain, I just know a little bit, just have spent a tiny little bit of time, but have taken a deep dive into her work. If that is not a sensitive soul, oh, yeah, I just don't know what it is. She is just a beautiful sensitive soul.

[53:26] Susan Blackwell: Yes.

[53:27] Laura Camien: And she was almost a lawyer. It's really, really interesting. In this TED Talk, she talks about um how she had dedicated her life to becoming a lawyer and she had a vision for becoming partner. And that vision was based on she had gone to one of the partners' homes, and it was this little 1800s, like built in the 1800s in the West Village um former house of a poet, you know, 18th century poet or something. And she was like, Oh my god, I have to live in this place. And so she realized she built this whole vision on like, I want to live in a poet's house. Not so much like I want to be a lawyer, but I need to envision this life so that I can have that life.

[54:09] Susan Blackwell: Yes.

[54:09] Laura Camien: And one day they one of the partners came in and told her, You're not gonna make partner, it's not gonna happen. And she was devastated. She left that very day. She said, I need a leave of absence. She left that day. A few weeks later, she broke up with her partner of seven years because that hadn't been working either. And she immediately started writing. Because a friend of hers, I guess, she started like dating a musician and she was obsessed with. And a friend was like, I don't think it's him that you're obsessed with. What do you think you might actually be obsessed with? And she was like, Oh my God, I'm again like I'm obsessed with. He represents a writer's life, an artist's life. And that is it, it was like that little house that belonged to a poet, this guy. She kept gravitating towards things that represented the life that she actually wanted. So not making partner was the biggest gift. She became a writer immediately.

[55:05] Susan Blackwell: Yeah, yeah.

[55:06] Laura Camien: And she made that beautiful house, her quiet house in Nyack. Like it, it's just she eventually, yeah, made it happen.

[55:14] Susan Blackwell: She made it happen. Um I'm very taken by this thing that you shared about front loading, whether it's self-compassion, self-care, and uh Karen Walrond, if we don't have a practice of gratitude in place when things are good, it would be, I think, difficult to begin that practice or access that gratitude when a hurricane has just taken the roof off your house.

[55:41] Laura Camien: Yes.

[55:42] Susan Blackwell: And so friends, another what do we make at this? Let me tell you like this is a practice that is actually a pleasure. And Laura Camien and I engage in this, my husband and I engage in this. Sometimes I sucker other people into this. What I'm just like, when somebody has an expression of when I'm irritable, say I'm irritable, and I tell Laura Camien, we get on our work call for the day, and I'm like, This is where I'm at today. And maybe Laura meets me and she's like, Well, this is where I'm at today. And after we've had a chance to be in our feelings and express them, every once in a while we have the presence of mind to say, let's have, let's play the gratitude game. And we just go back and forth. I'm grateful today because I have clean clothes, and I'm so thankful that I get to wear clean clothes today.

[56:35] Laura Camien: And then Laura will do one. Laura, you do one now.

[56:38] Laura Camien: I am thankful. Uh I'm thankful for a warm meal that I'm about to have for dinner.

[56:44] Susan Blackwell: Nice.

[56:44] Laura Camien: Frankly. And Laura and I just ping-pong that back and forth until we sort of depart the character to part of our brain. Thank you, Jill Bolty Taylor. We sort of that part of us that was irritable or just like we felt our feelings, we fully express them, and then we sort of migrate over into a more gratitudinal part of our brain. And I will say, I do think that it helps when the going is really tough, when it's not just, I feel mild irritation, but it's something more profound. It's nice to have that gratitude muscle strong and flexible.

[57:20] Susan Blackwell: Can I also say like that can be amazing in a relationship too? Wes and I talked about this like early on in our relationship. You can make a choice. When you look at that person, you see and think everything that you love about that person, rather than like, you know, fucking cannot take out the trash to save his life.

[57:41] Laura Camien: Yeah.

[57:42] Susan Blackwell: Um, instead of like focusing on little things like that's not true about Wes Day, by the way. But he takes out the trash like a champion. He will. I mean, I have to prepare it, but he will take it down. To me, that is like one of the biggest secrets to a happy relationship is you just never get stuck in the listing of you know what, and you know what annoys me is da-da-da-da-da. And you know what else? This and then this. That's a practice. You can strengthen that muscle if you want.

[58:11] Laura Camien: That's right.

[58:11] Susan Blackwell: It's like, oh, I might be irritated that I would like Wes to take the trash down, but then I can say, and you know what I love about Wes Day.

[58:18] Laura Camien: Yeah.

[58:19] Susan Blackwell: And I could list for go on for 10 minutes. And that's where I want my focus to be, not on some inconsequential thing.

[58:27] Laura Camien: Yeah, I love that.

[58:29] Susan Blackwell: I love the relentless practice of gratitude.

[58:32] Laura Camien: I wrote down relentless practice of gratitude. I love it.

[58:35] Susan Blackwell: That's Karen Walrond. She said that, and I just want to underscore it. She was like relentless, religiously.

[58:43] Laura Camien: Yeah.

[58:43] Susan Blackwell: She's just like, this is bottom line. When we talk like with wheels about like what is the bare minimum of what I can do, she's like, this is what I do, and nothing less. And I say again, it's pleasurable. It's not like doing push-ups.

[59:00] Laura Camien: No, it's joyful.

[59:02] Susan Blackwell: It actually is pleasurable, and you can really move yourself from being just like sour or victim-y into this other part of your brain and your heart. And we highly endorse it. And then I wrote this down, and I just love it. Use it all and break our hearts. Use it all and break our hearts. We want it, we want it. And also, that'd be a great, that'd be a great um album title, Use It All and Break Our Hearts. Use it all and Break Our Hearts. I feel proud of that. I feel like that was my takeaway of all of it. Aren't we here to break our hearts and literally crack them open wide and share them with someone else? Use it all. And they open theirs up and we're just like, oh yeah, our broken hearts connect connect us.

[59:54] Laura Camien: And then I just I want to loop around back to the beginning of me. What do we make of this thing?

[1:00:01] Susan Blackwell: Which is, I'm so sorry for your loss.

[1:00:03] Laura Camien: Thanks, babe. I appreciate it.

[1:00:06] Susan Blackwell: But I mean, thank you. I really do appreciate it. I feel my heart goes out to Maria's close, you know, close, close friends, her family, the people who have the joy of having Maria in their lives on a daily basis. And yeah, she was a real light and really was a gift to all of us that knew her.

[1:00:31] Laura Camien: Well, I'm really glad that we got to shine her light on the Sparks File podcast.

[1:00:37] Susan Blackwell: Thank you.

[1:00:38] Laura Camien: Thanks for everyone, listeners. If you're still with us, thank you for indulging me a moment to mark the life of a really beautiful person. And thanks for being a spark, Maria Santucci.

[1:00:51] Susan Blackwell: Oh my god, she was a human spark fest.

[1:00:54] Laura Camien: She still is.

[1:00:55] Susan Blackwell: Yeah.

[1:00:56] Laura Camien: She's still still.

[1:00:59] Susan Blackwell: All right, friends. That's it. This episode of the Sparks File was made on the lands of the Lenape people. And as always, we hope it put another bunch of sparks in your file. Listen, if there's a spark you'd like us to explore, or if you'd like to learn more about how to coach with us to bring your creative ideas to life, email us at thesparkfile@gmail.com or submit it through our website, thesparkfile.com. We will even happily take your feedback. You know we will.

[1:01:25] Laura Camien: You know we truly will. But first, you know the price of admission you have to share a creative risk that you've taken recently you can follow us on social at the sparkfile and be sure to subscribe rate and five star review this podcast it really does help other listeners to find us also if you like this podcast we hope that you will share it with people that you love and if you didn't like it we are still so grateful for you listening thus far so grateful friends if anything anything we've shared today lights you up gets your creative sparks flying we're writing you a forever permission slip to make that thing that's been knocking at your door it's your turn to take that spark and fan it into a flame you know you gotta take it and make it make it thanks Maria when I bumped into something that inspires me I dump it in the spark files could be something that I want to take or how I want to make I'll pump it in the spark file spark I'll jump into my spark files let's open up the sparkfile.