This transcript was automatically generated and might contain errors.

[0:10] Laura Camien: When I bump in the something that inspires me, I jump in my spark file.

[0:18] Susan Blackwell: Spark file to be something that I want to make or how I wanna be. I pump it in my spark spot. I jump into my sparks. Let's open up the spark file.

[0:37] Laura Camien: Welcome to the Sparks File, where we believe that everyone is creative, but smart creative people don't go it alone. I'm Laura Camien.

[0:44] Susan Blackwell: And I'm Susan Blackwell. If you're an OG listener, welcome back, Sparkler. If you're joining us for the first time, please know that all are welcome here. Whether your creativity has been on pause during this time or you've clung to it like a lifeline, welcome.

[0:59] Laura Camien: But you may be asking yourself, what exactly is a spark file? Where do I get one? What do I file in it? These are such good questions, y'all, and we have got answers.

[1:09] Susan Blackwell: Oh God, a spark file is a place where you consistently collect all your inspirations and fascinations. Here's the deal. We are makers who make all kinds of things.

[1:17] Laura Camien: We are. And if you're like us and you're making stuff all the time or want to be making stuff all the time, you know that the wellspring of inspiration can run a little dry, especially now.

[1:29] Susan Blackwell: But don't despair. We're here for you, and we are on the lookout for fresh ideas, images, and inspiration that spark creativity and pique our curiosity. Things that inspire us to get up off of our asses and make things like this podcast.

[1:44] Laura Camien: Or an interspecies relationship that reminds you of your own humanity. Okay. Or a body of evidence-based wisdom to help people move through the crispiest times in their lives.

[2:01] Susan Blackwell: I might need that one. Every episode, we're going to reach into the spark pile and exchange some sparks. And from time to time, we're going to talk to some folks who spark us too. And if you're not careful, you just might find some sweet, sweet relief.

[2:15] Laura Camien: So without further ado, let's open up the spark. Cams, I feel like we caught you unawares.

[2:24] Susan Blackwell: You did. What's going on over there?

[2:26] Laura Camien: I took a little micronap, like a tiny like 20-second micronap. I don't know what happened.

[2:35] Susan Blackwell: That's okay. You're back.

[2:37] Laura Camien: And she's back.

[2:38] Susan Blackwell: And I'm back, refreshed and ready to go. Cams, Cam, this is our first. This is our first recording since the inauguration of President Joseph Biden and Vice President Kamala Harris.

[2:54] Laura Camien: So week it's been. How are you feeling?

[2:58] Susan Blackwell: I'm feeling good. I'm feeling a sense of calm. I mean, I don't think that all the problems are solved or that all of the conflict has gone away, but I do find a little bit more peace just knowing that most aspects of our government are now in the hands of people who know what they're doing and have given their life to serving the American people.

[3:31] Laura Camien: What was that quote that you shared with me? I think it was on inauguration day, and I think it was Van Jones. Was it Van Jones?

[3:38] Susan Blackwell: Oh my God. Van Jones said, um, uh, what did he say? Calm is the new thrilling. Or boring is the new thrilling.

[3:45] Laura Camien: Boring is the new thrilling. That's right. And so it is this week has been effing thrilling.

[3:53] Susan Blackwell: Do you just not hear things?

[3:55] Laura Camien: Sometimes I walk in and um Wes will be watching the news. I'm like, what's going on? He's like, nah, you know, nothing much. And I'm like, that's so great.

[4:04] Susan Blackwell: That's so great. Yeah. And I it's it's so apparent that this administration has inherited a lot of uh let's say unsolved business.

[4:17] Laura Camien: Unsolved business is a good way to say it. I am hopeful. I am super hopeful that this very smart, very diverse group of professionals that are being pulled together are going to um, you know, everybody seems really committed to tackling it, to like just like putting together a thoughtful rollout of a COVID vaccine, the greatest health crisis that we'll probably face in our lifetime, hopefully.

[4:49] Susan Blackwell: Fingers crossed, like like things just little things like that that hadn't been um tended to in any event. And people still without, you know, without unemployment and without jobs.

[5:00] Laura Camien: Yes, it's it's so much it's it's bad.

[5:03] Susan Blackwell: Yeah, I think we just I'm just hoping that people on both sides can, you know, can be okay with getting back to like a place of compromise. You know, people on the far right and people on the far left are probably not gonna get everything that they want, but can we, you know, come to some compromise that makes us all feel like, you know what? I'm not getting every single thing that I want, but I am getting a damn good life, and uh quality of life is improving.

[5:35] Laura Camien: Yes.

[5:36] Susan Blackwell: So uh just feeling hopeful and um you know, yeah, yeah. And here we are, and we get to be together, we get to record a spark.

[5:43] Laura Camien: We get to record together. This is my favorite. As I said right before we started, this is the candy. This is like we're headed into the and picking sparks is like going into the candy store. Like, oh I want some of these gumdrops, I want some of these gobstoppers.

[6:04] Susan Blackwell: It's so interesting. I always have a tough it it's it's like such an embarrassment of riches because there are so the world is vast, and there are so many great sparks to choose from. Uh but it's always interesting to see like what gets chosen and what you know, yeah, and at what particular time?

[6:21] Laura Camien: Because sometimes like my eye will pass over things, you know, at a particular moment in in my life and I won't notice it, and then come back around and a sentence sticks out that I never saw before. I'm like, whoa. Now in this moment, I'm sparked by that in a new way.

[6:39] Susan Blackwell: So should we dive in?

[6:40] Laura Camien: Let's should we dive in. Should we open up the candy shop?

[6:43] Susan Blackwell: Yeah, let's open up the shop. I think you should be the first one in.

[6:49] Laura Camien: Oh, you think I can.

[6:52] Susan Blackwell: I wait, do I? I mean, meaning I get to come in and you're gonna serve me, or I'm gonna Oh, oh, nope. The other way. I want I want you, I want it like your spark first. Is that okay?

[7:03] Laura Camien: No, it is. I got confused. Sorry.

[7:05] Susan Blackwell: No, that's exactly. Yes. Okay, no, this is this is great. I'm ready to go. I was ready to like sit back.

[7:11] Laura Camien: I think our metaphor broke down a little, a tiny bit.

[7:11] Susan Blackwell: Tiny bit. Like that's getting into the store and whatnot. But nonetheless, I know why I had it in my mind that I was like, I was, I was like, I'm gonna chill, I'm gonna be chilling like a villain and taking your spark. But no, I'm ready to go. And here I go. The candy shop is open.

[7:30] Laura Camien: Um, come on, come on in. So this spark that I want to share with you was sparked by a conversation that you and I, Camin, were actually having recently with an artist.

[7:42] Susan Blackwell: Oh.

[7:43] Laura Camien: Uh she is, I'm not gonna name names, but she is a creative. She is a leader by profession. She is the mother of young children. She she contains multitudes. She has been in her current leadership role for over a decade.

[7:58] Susan Blackwell: And as she was talking, this is where you're going to be like, I know who you're talking about. She was describing how she felt like she didn't have much creative wind in her sails.

[8:11] Laura Camien: And the more that she spoke, the more I think it dawned on us that this is a person who is this is it's more complex than this. There's, you know, but this there is a the one aspect of it is is this is a person who is profoundly burnt out.

[8:27] Susan Blackwell: Uh huh. Yes, yes, yes.

[8:30] Laura Camien: With me.

[8:31] Susan Blackwell: Yep. So I think um we both recognize that burnout because we have both lived through that uh a burnout.

[8:39] Laura Camien: Yeah, both lived through our own burnout. And I will just say a little bit about mine. Back when we were doing title of show on Broadway, we were all really drinking from the fire hose of glory. Like so happy to be there, so happy to be doing it.

[8:54] Susan Blackwell: But I was working during the day at my job job. Then I would turn off my computer, I would run to the theater, I would eat just like a quick light meal. I would take a nap. That was before I meditated. So I would take a nap, I would wake up, I would warm up, I would do the show. I would sign autographs at the stage door, and then I would get home as soon as possible to calm myself down, get into bed and do it all over again.

[9:19] Laura Camien: And stuffed all around that on the calendar were interviews and press appearances and lots and lots of running and showing up and just being my best self, just being my best self, being my best self.

[9:31] Susan Blackwell: That's right. Yeah. So underneath what people at the time, when they were like, How are you doing this? I was like, I don't think this is any more rigorous than being a working parent of children.

[9:42] Laura Camien: Oh my god.

[9:43] Susan Blackwell: And I really meant that.

[9:44] Laura Camien: Yeah.

[9:45] Susan Blackwell: And especially now.

[9:46] Laura Camien: And especially, oh my God, especially now. But underneath all of that, what I haven't spoken about very much publicly is that my private life was extremely stressful at the time.

[9:58] Susan Blackwell: So I was doing all the aforementioned and resting on top of that very intense schedule. I was carrying the weight of a lot of responsibility on my shoulders, and it was really grinding me down.

[10:11] Laura Camien: And I remember it got to a point where it felt like energetically a breaker blew and the power went out. It felt like my nervous system had been thrumming in that red zone for so long. And I had been spitting and worried. And it was like I know there's a I've seen commercials like this and TV shows like this, where they they sh they show someone throwing a giant industrial circuit breaker and the power going out like in a high-rise building.

[10:39] Susan Blackwell: And it just goes and it was like my body couldn't keep the needle pegged in the red zone indefinitely. And so my body was like, you know what? We're shutting her down.

[10:51] Laura Camien: And it really did feel like my body's electrical system made the call and kind of the worry kind of abated. I'm not saying it was a good thing. I think it was like self-preservation.

[11:03] Susan Blackwell: Yeah.

[11:04] Laura Camien: And my body, yeah, and survival.

[11:06] Susan Blackwell: Exactly. So CamS, I know you have or currently have having experienced periods of burnout like that in your life.

[11:18] Laura Camien: And um it took me a long ass time to recover. Like it, if I'm honest, it took me years to recover from that period in my life. And looking back, if I had to tell you specifically how I recovered, I would I'd be hard-pressed. I think that meditation, aka rest had a lot to do with it.

[11:42] Susan Blackwell: But looking back on it, I wish that I could share some of the things that I've learned diving into this spark with that version of myself.

[11:52] Laura Camien: With former you, pastor.

[11:54] Susan Blackwell: Yeah, with former past me. Um, but nothing is for naught. And I'm sure that current and future me and current and future you.

[12:03] Laura Camien: Yeah.

[12:03] Susan Blackwell: I was like, and current and future you listeners needs it.

[12:07] Laura Camien: Yeah. Yeah. We'll hopefully still find this very useful.

[12:10] Susan Blackwell: Yes, yes. Oh my gosh, without a doubt. So, as you were saying, like being a parent now, like I look at the time we're living in now, and I think about this artist we were talking to who is feeling so depleted.

[12:23] Laura Camien: After periods of profound creative and/or professional output, then you throw in some pandemic stress. Then you throw in a little political insanity and some periods of positive, yes, economic stress, positive but rigorous social change.

[12:39] Susan Blackwell: Yes.

[12:40] Laura Camien: And all the ongoing work around that. And those are just big picture demands of our capacity. There are those personal stresses, stresses closer to home, like raising kids, navigating Zoom learning and teaching, hybrid learning, navigating staying safe and illness and lost jobs and lost income and even lost lives.

[13:02] Susan Blackwell: It's pretty intense to be a functioning adult right now.

[13:05] Laura Camien: I can't imagine. Like I feel some days like I'm holding as much as I possibly can, and I don't have children, and I don't have a partner who is working out in the world at a job, you know, that they're risking, you know, getting sick every day.

[13:24] Susan Blackwell: And there's just so many other factors that I think about.

[13:28] Laura Camien: Oh my God, people are holding all of this.

[13:31] Susan Blackwell: All of it.

[13:32] Laura Camien: Yeah. And it made me really curious. What is the current thinking about burnout? Is there any good current research-based, evidence-based ways to process this shiz and get unburnt out or avoid becoming burnt out?

[13:49] Susan Blackwell: So I did a little digging, and Cam's, I'm happy to report, I feel like I struck a vein of gold.

[13:56] Susan Blackwell: Oh, I can't wait.

[13:57] Laura Camien: Oh, God, help us, Susan.

[13:59] Susan Blackwell: Help us. Friends, Camille, Sparklers, lend me your ears. And permit me to introduce you to the work of Emily and Amelia Nagoski.

[14:09] Susan Blackwell: Emily and Amelia are the authors of the book Burnout: The Secret to Unlocking the Stress Cycle. And they are the hosts of a podcast called The Feminist Survival Project 2020. Not sure if they're updating the name for 2021, but the Feminist Survival Project 2020. But they are so much more than what they've made. And I just want to read you their bios real quickly.

[14:31] Susan Blackwell: Emily Nagoski has a PhD in health behavior with a minor in human sexuality and an MS in counseling, including a clinical internship at the Kinsey Institute Sexual Health Clinic. She's been a sex educator for 20 years and currently works as the inaugural director of wellness education at Smith College. Fancy fancy. Okay, so that's Emily, okay?

[14:55] Susan Blackwell: Amelia Nagoski holds a doctorate in musical arts in conducting. She is an assistant professor and coordinator of music at Western New England University. And she regularly presents educational sessions discussing the application of communication science and psychological research for audiences of other professional musicians, including Beyond Burnout Prevention, Embody Wellness for Conductors. They are sisters, they are identical twins, they are smart as fuck, and they seem to love Broadway musicals, and they love using profanity, which of course made me fucking love them.

[15:36] Susan Blackwell: Oh my God. It's really beautiful the way that they've brought their superpowers together to write this really helpful book that, because of their backgrounds in teaching and the arts, Amelia's work as a professional musician and a conductor, they seem especially well suited to speak to creatives. So incredible. Buckle up, nerdbags. Because this episode is going to be full of gems, courtesy of the big brains, and the hard work of Emily and Amelia Nagoski. They have done us all a solid Thanks, Em.

[16:08] Laura Camien: Thanks, friends. Side of Sparks, I think we should totally invite them onto our show.

[16:12] Susan Blackwell: Oh my God. If you're listening to this, Nagoskies, our people will be in touch with your people, which is to say we will be emailing you directly.

[16:22] Susan Blackwell: So throughout their book and their podcast, Emily and Amelia Nagoski beautifully discuss so many ideas that we have been talking about for years in our teaching and around creativity. But I always appreciate when really smart, evidence-based writers share this shiz because it confirms and articulates what I know to be true anecdotally and/or true through the school of hard knocks. But it's so great to hear it presented in a very research-based way.

[16:54] Susan Blackwell: So, for instance, in the introduction to their book, they said something about the book that felt intuitively correct to me and it aligned with so many things we've talked about ad nauseum on this podcast. They write that their book, entitled Burnout, and I quote, turned into a lot more than a book about stress. Above all, it became a book about connection. We humans are not built to do things alone. We are built to work together. That's what we wrote about, and that's how we wrote it. Wow.

[17:23] Laura Camien: Wow.

[17:25] Susan Blackwell: I'm in love. Love their collaboration, loving you ladies. They're just super sparkish. So let's we're gonna dig into a little bitty bit of this. This I tell you, this will just scratch the surface. This is a little tasty bite-sized, spark-size sampler of their work. But if you like the cut of this jib, I highly recommend that you check out the book Burnout, The Secret to Unlocking the Stress Cycle, and their podcast called The Feminist Survival Project 2020. So let's dig in.

[17:56] Susan Blackwell: Something that Emily and Amelia, I was this is the moment where I was like, and here is my book report. So something that Emily and Amelia talk about in their work is the distinction between stress and stressors. So there's stress and there's stressors.

[18:13] Susan Blackwell: So according to their book Burnout, I'm just gonna straight up read this. Yeah, okay. Stressors are what activate the stress response in your body. There are external stressors, work, money, family, time, cultural norms and expectations, experiences of discrimination, and so on. And there are less tangible internal stressors, self-criticism, body image, identity, memories, and the future. In different ways and to different degrees, all of these things may be interpreted by your body as potential threats. So that's stressors.

[18:48] Susan Blackwell: Stress. It stresses you out, basically. Yeah, the cause. So stress is the neurological and physiological shift that happens in your body when you encounter one of these threats. It's an evolutionary adaptive response that helps us cope with things like, say, being chased by a lion. It is this sentence is such a work of art. It is the cascade of neurological and hormonal activity that initiates physiological changes to help you survive. I love that.

[19:09] Susan Blackwell: It is the cascade of physiological and hormonal activity. I love that. So they go on to describe all of that cascading and physiological activity. Our bodies push blood into our muscles, they keep us going and help us ignore how uncomfortable all of this is. The heart beats faster, the blood pumps harder, so your blood pressure increases, and your breath becomes more quick. Your muscles tense, your sensitivity to pain diminishes, your attention is alert and vigilant, focusing on short-term here and now thinking, your senses are heightened, your memory shifts to channel its functioning to the narrow band of experience and knowledge most immediately relevant to this stressor. Plus, to maximize your body's efficiency in the state, your other organ systems get deprioritized. Your entire body and mind change in response to the perceived threat.

[20:08] Susan Blackwell: So all of that is to say stressors and stress are two different things. Stressors are the cause of the stress, and stress is the neurological and physiological shift that happens in your body when you encounter one of these stressors. And Cam's, if I understand it correctly, and I hope I'm doing your work justice, ladies. If you process through the beginning, middle, and end of the stress response, you can complete the stress cycle. It's when we don't complete the beginning, middle, and end of the stress cycle repeatedly that burnout can become an issue. Like if we chronically get stuck in the middle of the processing, that's when burnout can become an issue.

[20:49] Laura Camien: I have a question.

[20:55] Susan Blackwell: Okay, great. But I just want to ask you the so I get like we might get stuck in the middle of the cycle. Yes.

[21:02] Laura Camien: But is it also when we speak about cascades? But that the stressors like keep coming as well. So we're not like before we even complete one, we've got another one.

[21:14] Susan Blackwell: Yeah. Yes. We're you know what? We're gonna get to it. I think we're gonna go ahead and okay. I think we're gonna hit it. I'm not gonna worry about it. Thank you.

[21:20] Laura Camien: But it's a great question. Thank you.

[21:22] Susan Blackwell: So that distinction of like stressors and stress are two different things is super helpful. It's super helpful to make that distinction for a few reasons. It means that you can learn to process stress fully without removing the stressors from your life. So, for instance, if you're a parent trying to have a meaningful career slash creative life, and maybe that includes leading and managing people, and you're also raising your kids during a pandemic, that coincides with a lunatic political administration. Bang girl. And it also coincides with an awesome but rigorous social movement. If all of that is happening, but you are separating the stressors from the stress response, it means you don't have to put your kids up for adoption or find a personally find a cure for COVID-19 or solve systemic racism all on your own. You can turn your attention to processing through and completing the stress response.

[22:19] Susan Blackwell: And if I understand their work correctly, that can also mean that it can buy you as long as you're not getting stuck in that stress response, and then that can lead to burnout. That can buy you the capacity to address you know, some of those, you know, turning your attention to solving systemic racism in your little corner of the world, that sort of thing. So um, so a bit about a bit more about all of this. According to the Nagoski sisters, emotions are tunnels. If you go all the way through them, you get to the light at the end. Exhaustion happens when we get stuck in an emotion. Amen to this.

[22:58] Susan Blackwell: This reminds me of our creativity work when we gently encourage people to identify and create out of those things that give them a visceral feeling in their body. But to continue to move through it, to express it out in their work. So sometimes that can look like you're conceiving and pitching jokes and you get dumb giggles, like you get hard, dumb giggles while you're doing that work. Or sometimes it's my personal favorite, typing and crying. That's when I know I'm on to something good when I'm typing and crying. And it doesn't scare me because I've I'm so accustomed to it that it's sort of normalized for me. I know that it won't last forever. I know that it has a beginning and a middle and an end, and then it moves on. And I also know as a creative, that's that it's an indicator that there is some really good, juicy, creative raw material afoot. Or as I like to say, there's gold and then there feels.

[23:53] Susan Blackwell: So back to the book. The Nagoskis go on to say, we may get stuck simply. Here, this is for you. This one's going out to you, Laura Camien. We may get stuck simply because we're constantly being exposed to situations that activate emotion. Like when we return to our stressful job every single day. No wonder helping professions are so exhausting. You're confronted with people in need all day, day after day. No wonder parenting is so exhausting. Once you're a parent, you're never not a parent. You're always going through the tunnel. Sometimes we get stuck because we can't find our way through the most difficult feelings: rage, grief, despair, hopelessness, maybe too treacherous to move through alone. We get lost and need someone else, a loving presence to help us find our way.

[24:42] Susan Blackwell: So that speaks to the question that you had, Camps, which is there can be sort of depending on how your life is structured or the season of your life that you're in, this sort of ongoing onslaught of stressors, you know, the greatest hits coming at you and coming at you and coming at you. You know, this is also reminding me of a spark we did a while ago where we were talking about like emotions need to stay in motion.

[25:11] Laura Camien: That's right, Camille.

[25:12] Susan Blackwell: Emotions need to, yeah, that's yes, yes, yes. But when they get stuck, is when is the problem, or when we block them or we try not to feel them, or we're like, I'm gonna set that aside, I'll feel it later. But if we can actually let it move through us, it will keep moving and we'll get to the end of the tunnel.

[25:29] Laura Camien: Yeah, I also think of that when you say that. I always think of um, you know, I I'm lucky enough to live in a uh in a space where I can see big sky. Like I see big sky where I live. And it what it means is we see weather systems, we see them hundreds of miles on the horizon. We see them rolling in, and we see we pass, we see them pass around us by us and through us. And it's like that too. It reminds me of like clouds rolling in, precipitation dump, clouds roll out.

[26:05] Susan Blackwell: Yes. And it is, it's that emotions need to stay in motion. That's exactly it.

[26:09] Laura Camien: That's exactly it. I am loving this. I'm taking so many notes, by the way.

[26:13] Susan Blackwell: I'm sure everyone is. Just keep going. Note it up. I hope you're not driving. Here we go. Throughout this whole book and all their work, Emily and Amelia Nagoski encourage a world where we lean on each other and rely on each other, which I think is such beautiful advice. It reminds me of the talk that you and I gave just this past week, CamS, about not going it alone in your creativity, finding other like-minded creatives to link arms with. And we just want to say yes again to healthy, supportive collaborations and friendships where people tend to each other and help each other in making things and processing through the stress responses that come up around making things and just come up around life. You know what I mean?

[27:00] Susan Blackwell: So I want to talk specifically. And again, this is scratching the surface. The work that these people have done is so deep. So just a little bit. I want to talk a little bit about how we can process through stress responses. And as they say, there's a whole catalog of ways to do this, but they stress this is not another to-do list. This is a bunch of tools that you can pick and choose from to so that you can complete the stress cycle. So let's start with number one. Number one, top of the charts is physical activity exercise.

[27:44] Susan Blackwell: Physical activity is the single most efficient strategy for completing the stress response cycle.

[27:50] Laura Camien: I'm gonna say it again for the people in the back.

[27:53] Susan Blackwell: Physical activity is the single most effective strategy for completing the stress response cycle. Suze, I gotta I have to chime in because I think you probably noticed a change in me when I started, um, you know, walking like seven months into the training.

[28:11] Laura Camien: Yeah, I was like, Mother Effing, I cannot sit at this desk all day. It's like the anger and resentment was boiling up in me of like how much work had just like piled on. And then I committed to, I'm gonna get up and I'm gonna walk every day, and I'm not gonna put any further pressure on myself.

[28:30] Susan Blackwell: Yeah, just walk, just do that. And it was an effing game changer.

[28:36] Laura Camien: Absolutely. My sister Julie made a commitment to herself a few years back that rain, shine, sleet, snow, it would not keep her from her appointed daily walk. And that walk might last seven minutes. It might not be a long walk, but she gets up, she gets out, and she walks. And I can see how I think she'll keep doing it for the rest of her life. And I can see how it's changed her life in this great way.

[29:00] Susan Blackwell: Hunter Bell, when Hunter Bell, um, one of my besties came to live with us for months during the pandemic. And Hunter Bell got me up and exercising again.

[29:10] Laura Camien: Amazing.

[29:16] Susan Blackwell: And I've said to him, I think that you, I know you changed my life and you might have saved it because it really, I for some reason I wasn't getting there on my own. And sometimes I just want to acknowledge when you're in that burnout space, the thought of adding exercise to your life can seem daunting.

[29:39] Laura Camien: And I have felt that very recently, like I'm very present to what that feels like.

[29:44] Susan Blackwell: That's right. But maybe start with literally baby steps. Like maybe it's like the walk to the mailbox and back. And if you're somebody who has had COVID, as I know, people we love and many, you know, listeners, and even one of the Nagoski sisters has that can be daunting, but I just want to put it out there. But it's also it's not the only physical activity is not the only way to process um to that stress process through that stress cycle.

[30:16] Laura Camien: And uh they say in their book, physical activity, literally any movement of your body is your first line of attack in the battle against burnout, but it's not the only thing that works to complete the stress response cycle. Far from it. Here are some other evidence-based strategies. Next up, breathing.

[30:31] Susan Blackwell: Deep slow breaths downregulate. I'm reading straight from their book, so please enjoy. Deep, slow breaths downregulate, which is my new favorite verb. Downregulate the stress response, especially when the exhalation is long and slow and goes all the way to the end of the breath so that your belly contracts. Breathing is the most effective when your stress isn't that high, or when you just need to siphon off the very worst of the stress so that you can get through a difficult situation, after which you'll do something more hardcore.

[31:06] Laura Camien: Also, if you're living with the aftermath of trauma, and I want to say here that trauma and burnout are two different things. And they speak beautifully about that in their podcast. If you're living with the aftermath of trauma, simply breathing deeply is the gentlest way to begin unlocking from the trauma, which makes it a great place to start. And I thought it'd be fun, Cammian, if we did some breathing now.

[31:30] Susan Blackwell: What? This is straight from the yes, you're getting interactive. So this is straight from their book. We do a lot of this work in our workshops, and frankly, I do a lot of it in my own life and work because I know that when my body is in stress response, this is something that can de excite my nervous system or downregulate it as I just learned. So um so this is what I'm gonna do. I'm gonna this is gonna take a little we're gonna take about 90 seconds or two minutes to do this, so please enjoy. Uh first I'm gonna tell you what we're gonna do, then we're gonna do it. And again, this is straight from their book. Okay. We're gonna breathe in on a slow count of five. We're gonna hold that breath for five, and then we're gonna exhale on a slow count of ten.

We're gonna do it three times, and I'm gonna count it out for you. So if you're in a place where you can safely do this, play along. If you're in a place where you can't mark this, it's we're about probably 30 some minutes into the podcast. You can come back to it later. Here we go. So in through the nose, two, three, four, five, and hold, two, three, four, five, exhale, two, three, four, five, six, seven, eight, nine, ten, and through the nose, two, three, four, five, and hold, two, three, four, five, exhale, two, three, four, five, six, seven, eight, nine, ten, and through the nose, two, three, four, five, and hold, two, three, four, five, exhale, two, three, four, five, six, seven, eight, nine, ten.

[33:38] Laura Camien: Did we do that three times?

[33:39] Susan Blackwell: We I lost count. Okay, great.

[33:42] Laura Camien: Very good.

[33:43] Susan Blackwell: How do you feel, Hims?

[33:44] Laura Camien: It feels good. It feels really, really good.

[33:48] Susan Blackwell: It's like it's good, right?

[33:50] Laura Camien: Yeah.

[33:50] Susan Blackwell: I'd like to invite anybody who wants to to please sample that and make it their ringtone. And through the nose.

[33:56] Laura Camien: Two, three, four.

[34:00] Susan Blackwell: Yeah. Exciting. Super helpful. And I do that. I don't do that on a daily basis, but I do it with some frequency.

[34:08] Laura Camien: Nice.

[34:10] Susan Blackwell: And sometimes while I'm walking.

[34:13] Laura Camien: Nice.

[34:14] Susan Blackwell: Yes. So you're getting both. You're getting both. Double whammy. So this one was super interesting to me because it's another one. Um, it felt right to me intuitively based on my own lived experience, but it was great to hear them present it in a research-based way. And it is positive social interaction. Casual but friendly social interaction is the first external sign that the world is a safe place.

[34:41] Laura Camien: So they suggest, like when you're buying a cup of coffee, just to say, have a great day to the barista, or complimenting a stranger's earrings. It's a way of reassuring your brain that the world is a safe, sane place, and that not all people suck.

[34:58] Susan Blackwell: And I have to say, this feels right to me. I was a shy kid, I'm an introverted adult, but when I'm out in the world, like if I'm at a this is classic Susan Blackwell. Well, if I'm at a university, I will ask the cafeteria worker who is maybe like serving my food or putting food on a plate for me, what food they like to eat in the cafeteria.

[35:19] Laura Camien: Uh-huh.

[35:19] Susan Blackwell: And they'll say, you know, what's really good is the, you know, just sort of that. Or I tell just that we were at the hardware store the other night and a woman said, I love your braid. And I said, I love your mask. She had on like a bejeweled mask. And I was like, I love your mask. And I had a feeling in my body after it happened. And it really does have an effect. But I what I didn't know is that it's more than just like, oh, that feels good to connect even briefly with another human being. It's completing a stress cycle. It's telling your body, like there are the world is largely safe and sane.

[35:56] Laura Camien: That's amazing.

[35:56] Susan Blackwell: Yeah. And so incredible to think of it as completing the cycle. Because here, like we live along this beautiful bike path in Florida. And there's a lot of people out and about. And so when I go out for walks, you know, we'll do the hey, you know, good morning, hi.

[36:17] Laura Camien: Yeah.

[36:17] Susan Blackwell: Kind of thing to every time you do that, you're sending a message, I think, to yourself that the like the world is safe and sane.

[36:26] Laura Camien: It's most people are safe and sane.

[36:28] Susan Blackwell: It's so true. And I think even like in New York, obviously when I arrive there from Kansas, uh, not the kind of thing that's done traditionally, is walk down the street and make eye contact and smile and say hello. But like you said, it can, you know, that's more of the thing where when you go into your local barista um or you know, Starbucks uh or bodega, what whatever, wherever you're popping in each morning, and you know, that's that's like such a perfect place to say hello to the world around you and and complete the cycle.

[37:04] Laura Camien: Yeah, and it occurs to me while we're talking that I'm thinking about times when your body is telling you there is danger present. Uh it reminds me of Gavin De Becker's work. And and your body will send your body knows before you do that. And to listen to that and do what you have to do to get to safety.

[37:30] Susan Blackwell: So sometimes if you're walking on that path and you're like there's something that's not right about that person approaching me from uh from the front or from behind, like doing what you have to do to um that's right, to keep yourself safe. So, you know, it's you know right. So it's not about like ignoring those things, but when you do feel safe, going ahead, completing the cycle by by extending yourself in a positive social interaction.

[38:00] Laura Camien: Absolutely, absolutely. That just reminds me, uh note to self that these are sparks that you will hear on a future episode. But Gavin De Becker's The Gift of Fear, amazing, and the body keeps the score. Anyway, here's another uh great way to you know continue through that stress response cycle. Laughter.

[38:19] Susan Blackwell: Laughter came in.

[38:21] Laura Camien: Uh-huh.

[38:22] Susan Blackwell: And this is from their book, Laughing together and even just reminiscing about the times when we've laughed together, even just reminiscing about the times that we've left together, increases relationship satisfaction. They don't mean social or post-laughter, they mean deep belly laughs, impolite, helpless laughter. When we laugh, says neuroscientist Sophie Scott, we use an ancient evolutionary system that mammals have evolved to make and maintain social bonds and regulate emotions.

[38:52] Laura Camien: This makes so much sense to me.

[38:54] Susan Blackwell: I and I think it's why when Nathan makes me laugh, or you make me laugh, or Hunter Bell makes me laugh, it does feel like home. I do feel very safe when you know it's hard to Nathan always says it's hard to laugh when you're stressed. And it's hard, he also says it's hard to whistle if you're not happy.

[39:15] Laura Camien: That one I don't know if I would have discovered, but it's hard to whistle when you're stressed.

[39:19] Susan Blackwell: Like he thinks it's hard to whistle when you're stressed. He's a great whistler, and he I can tell when he's in like feeling relaxed because there's sort of all through the house, there's sort of like this like little meadow lark sound that's happening.

[39:34] Laura Camien: Oh my god, how sweet.

[39:36] Susan Blackwell: That's very sweet. So another one, so maybe the Nagoskies can add that to their list.

[39:40] Laura Camien: Whistling.

[39:41] Susan Blackwell: Whistling. Um there you go. But I also imagine there's something, there might be something to that because it does regulate the breath too. Like the flow of breath is kind of it requires sort of constant even breath pressure. I don't know. I just think you've got me thinking about the times because Wes whistles a lot too. Um, and yeah, it's when he's just it's like a Sunday afternoon cooking, real totally relaxed, and yeah.

[40:04] Laura Camien: Um and also it may you're just making me feel like even more. I always feel appreciative of Wes, but he is like he is responsible for 90% of the laughter in my life because I think left to my own devices, you know, I would work, I would work more and experience more burnout.

[40:26] Susan Blackwell: Um, and my God, I think there are times now I'll think of it differently because I'll be obviously mid-stress cycle. And, you know, I'll be damned if he won't just like make me laugh in some way. And I'm like, ah, thank you.

[40:43] Laura Camien: Yeah.

[40:44] Susan Blackwell: And now I've just let go of that last little bit of stress I was hanging on to.

[40:50] Laura Camien: Yeah.

[40:50] Susan Blackwell: And this leads, you've you set me up beautifully for the next one, which is affection.

[40:56] Laura Camien: Affection.

[40:57] Susan Blackwell: So most often this comes from some loving and beloved person who likes, respects, and trusts you, whom you like, respect, and trust. They say it doesn't have to be physical affection, though physical affection is great. A warm hug and a safe, trusting context can do as much to help your body feel like it has escaped a threat as jogging a couple of miles.

[41:17] Laura Camien: Did you get that?

[41:18] Susan Blackwell: Wow. A good hug. So a little bit more about this. I uh the other night I was telling Nathan about how excited I was about the spark and about this book. And I shared some of these strategies for stress completion, including uh something that they call the 20-second embrace.

[41:36] Susan Blackwell: So let me read this passage to you. Hug someone you love and trust for 20 full seconds while both of you are standing over your own centers of balance. Most of the time when we hug people, it's a quick lean-in type hug, or it might be a longer hug where you each lean on each other so that if one person let go, the other person would fall over. Instead, support your own weight as your partner does the same and put your arms around each other. Hold on. The research suggests a 20-second hug can change your hormones, lower your blood pressure and heart rate, and improve mood, all of which are reflected in the post-hug increase in the social bonding hormone oxytocin. So I'd share that with Nathan, and then the next morning I was sharing with Nathan about a stressful situation I was experiencing.

And after we talked through the stressful situation, I said, Can we try that hug? And of course he was totally game. So we both stood up and we did the hug, and it was super awesome. But if you don't have a Wes or you don't have a Nathan, never fear petting an animal for a few minutes. Oh yes, yes your blood pressure. So just go pet someone's dog or cat or horse or hedgehog. Just be sure to ask their permission first.

[42:54] Laura Camien: Yeah. Oh, that's so good. Visit, you know, visit a um, yes, absolutely. Absolutely. I think there's a reason so many people, in addition to having a lot more home time and stuff like that. I think there's a reason a lot of pets have been adopted during this.

[43:13] Susan Blackwell: Yes, yes. So another activity that completes the stress response cycle. It's one of your favorites, Cams. Can you guess it?

[43:20] Laura Camien: Oh my gosh. One of your favorites, a go-to for you.

[43:25] Susan Blackwell: Writing, is it?

[43:28] Laura Camien: Oh my gosh. Um, I put you on the spot.

[43:31] Susan Blackwell: You did what what I'll give you a clue. I'm gonna give you a clue.

[43:35] Laura Camien: Okay.

[43:36] Susan Blackwell: There's a reason that one of my nicknames for Cams is broadcast news.

[43:40] Laura Camien: Oh, crying.

[43:43] Susan Blackwell: A big old cry.

[43:44] Laura Camien: A good old cry. Sometimes I'll just walk around and be like, I think I need to cry. I'm gonna sit down. I have to cry.

[43:50] Susan Blackwell: Processed tears.

[43:51] Laura Camien: Yes. Yes.

[43:53] Susan Blackwell: So they write. I always think of Sue Kayampa, processed tears. So the Nagoskis write, have you ever experienced, have you ever had the experience of just barely making it inside before you slam the door behind you and burst into tears for 10 minutes? Then you wipe your nose, say a big sigh, and you feel relieved from the weight of whatever made you cry. You may not have changed the situation that caused the stress, but you completed the cycle. So they recommend that you use your favorite tearjerker movie that makes you cry every time. Going through that emotion with the characters allows your body to go through it too. The story guides you through the complete emotional cycle.

[44:27] Laura Camien: Yeah. Yes. Yes. Those are mirror neurons, which I am going to talk about in my spark, which is that's so validating to hear, like, yes, you should, yes, turn on a movie that you know will make you cry, or pick up a book passage that you know will make you cry and just let it rip. You know, this also leads to it's a little bit of a jump towards the what do we make of it, but it's something that I want to talk about with Nathan, which is sometimes, you know, Nathan's not in the entertainment industry. And I'm always like, oh, he's got this kooky, you know, I'm a very feeling person, and this is to who he's um, you know, attached his life to. And so sometimes I think that, like when we're watching, for instance, movies or programs that give me strong emotional feelings, like crying, I will try to govern it so that uh it doesn't, so I'm not too much, so it doesn't overwhelm him.

But I think a what do we make of it that I'm taking away from this is I'm going to put him on notice that I'm not going to do that anymore. That when I have an emotional response to something that we're experiencing together, I'm gonna just go ahead and let it rip and complete the stress response cycle, get it out so that I'm not just like I don't want him to think I'm crazy, or I don't want him to think that I am like emotionally unstable. Just say I'm just I'm just like letting this, I'm just cutting this loose.

[45:54] Susan Blackwell: Yeah, and I was like, so that's one, that's a little what a what am I gonna make of it? I'm gonna make that.

[45:59] Laura Camien: Yeah, yeah. I love that. We've had that talk over here too of just like yeah, you and I have had that talk. Like, like uh cry it out, cry it out.

[46:09] Susan Blackwell: Yeah, I think, yeah. Uh then just real quick, one movie that really this, if you ever need well, I don't know, different things work for different people. Something that really works for me is um there's the great documentary about uh Carol Spinney, Big Bird. Uh it's a beautiful documentary uh that our friend Matt Vogel appears in because Matt Vogel is Big Bird now, but um the scene where Big Bird sings it's not easy being green at Jim Henson's funeral. That makes me cry. Oh, and maybe maybe y'all will enjoy that as well. Yeah, complete the stress response cycle. I think music is another like go-to music, you know, put on a song. There are certain songs like I can't even sing along with if I, you know, halfway through the first sentence and I'm in tears. And so for sure. It's a good go-to.

[47:04] Laura Camien: Yeah.

[47:05] Susan Blackwell: So here comes my favorite. This is my favorite. Way to complete the stress response cycle. And if you're listening to this podcast, it might be yours too. Creative expression. Uh creative expressions, babies. So they say in their book, like sports, the arts, including painting, sculpting, music, theater, and storytelling in all forms, create a context that tolerates, even encourages big emotions. Literary, visual, and performing arts of all kinds give us the chance to celebrate and move through big emotions. It's like a cultural loophole in a society that tells us to be nice and not make waves, take advantage of the loophole.

[47:49] Laura Camien: I love it. I love it. I love those things when we are like listing why is creativity so essential.

[47:57] Susan Blackwell: That's right. Why is creativity essential?

[48:00] Laura Camien: It's because process.

[48:01] Susan Blackwell: Yeah, that's right. This one is no, you're you're you're right on the money and you're right on time, Cams. This is this one is, I think is so great because you can either be the creative who is using your work to complete the stress response cycle, or you can simply bear witness to it.

[48:19] Laura Camien: Yes.

[48:20] Susan Blackwell: As an audience member, you can be sitting in the dark, being moved by the play, the movie, or the dance concert, or the symphony or the choir, and that completes the stress response cycle too. You know, I have said this to my students for years. When you see someone doing something, and when we talk about taking brave creative risks, and why do we want to aim to take brave creative risks, and what does that, how does that light up our work? When you see someone doing something genuinely brave and risky, either in class or on stage, you are witnessing their expansion as a human. And just by witnessing it, if the audience is awake and attuned, the audience's humanity is expanded too. Just by being in the same room with the creative risk taker, all hearts expand, all votes rise.

Catharsis is a completion of the stress response cycle. So by making work that allows you to feel your feelings and by sharing that work, it allows other people to feel their feelings. And you're supporting people as they complete their stress response cycles and process burnout. And it can take so many creative forms. I'm so into this, Cams. This is amazing. This is amazing.

[49:31] Laura Camien: Is that part out of their book about catharsis?

[49:35] Susan Blackwell: No, I've been saying this for years to my students.

[49:37] Laura Camien: Yes, it dovetails.

[49:39] Susan Blackwell: Yes, yes, yes, totally into their work. Totally validates that.

[49:42] Laura Camien: Yeah, it totally validates that. And it reminds me, I was watching um Hulu, maybe in and of itself is an off-Broadway show that a magician made to call him a uh magician is reductive, but um, in and of itself, I highly recommend it. And you really see it. This is a person who has uh made a choice to devote their life to their craft, and not just the craft of being a magician, but also a performer who gets up in front of people and takes risk and cultivates risks for the people in the audience, risks in a safe space. And you can see over and over and over again, people are having cathartic responses, they are processing through the cycle of stress response. Now, you might before listening to this podcast, have watched that and been able, you might not have put it exactly that way, right? But I would put it that way now, after after having um, you know, doing the work that we've done and being exposed to this work. I was like, that's that's what he's doing.

[50:55] Susan Blackwell: So in their book, they go, they go on to say, one thing we know for sure doesn't work. Just telling yourself that everything is okay now. Completing the cycle isn't an intellectual decision, it is a physiological shift. They go on to say, how do you know you've completed the cycle? It's like knowing when you're full after a meal, or like knowing when you've had an orgasm, your body tells you, and it's easier for some people to recognize than others, you might experience it as a shift in mood or mental state or physical tension as you breathe more deeply and your thoughts relax. This, Cams, reminds me of the work that we do when we talk about um uh Thomas Schulteis and I made that let me try that again workshop.

And we do breathing, we act we do that breathing, box breathing exercise with people. Yeah, and we are like, you want to do this until something shifts. And that can mean it feels like a physical shift, like your breath drops down. It can feel like your uh brain, if your brain waves and your thoughts were very jumpy and jiggity jaggedy, they might sort of go boo, become more peaceful and a little more like a flat curve, you know, sort of thing. Um, but it's it is that thing. It's it's sort of like you want to do, you want to process through until something shifts.

[52:19] Laura Camien: There is so much written richness in this book and in their podcast. Um, and another thing that I just want to touch on lightly is their concept around human giver syndrome. This is a very big, deep concept, and it's taken me a lot of thinking, and I don't think I fully have my arms around it yet. So I just want to touch on it and say, according to their book, human givers must at all times be pretty, happy, calm, generous, and attentive to the needs of others, which means they must never be ugly, angry, upset, ambitious, or attentive to their own needs. They discuss at length the connection between maintaining all of that human givenness and the connection to burnout. It's pretty deep. And if you suffer from a lifetime of positioning yourself as a human giver or being positioned by our culture as a human giver, it has deep roots and it's really worth some inquiry, and it's worth looking at in order to maintain your own preservation.

[53:27] Susan Blackwell: I think about that artist we were talking to, and I was like, oh, there may be uh some human giver syndrome at play here. To illustrate human giver syndrome on their podcast, they talk about the fucked upness of some of the messaging in the book The Giving Tree by Shel Silverstein. You know that book? It's time we talked about it. Let's we're just talking about it right now. So The Giving Tree, you want to take a fresh look at it. It tells the story of this relationship between a boy and a tree. This tree apparently uses the she, her, hers pronouns. The tree gives and gives and gives to the boy, and the boy takes and takes and takes from the tree until the tree's an old stump. She's just an old stump.

And when he needs it, the boy can now use her as a chair. So I loved this book when I was little. I found it to be so wistful, and there was a melancholy to it, and it gave Lil Sensitive Susan a chance to feel all her feelings. But on their podcast, Emily and Amelia Nagoski talk about how problematic that story is when viewed through the lens of human giver syndrome.

[55:20] ⚠ About 3 minutes of audio could not be automatically transcribed.

[57:55] Susan Blackwell: I can't even remember the last time you asked me how I'm doing.

[58:01] Laura Camien: How are you, tree?

[58:03] Susan Blackwell: asked the boy. He sincerely wanted to know.

[58:07] Susan Blackwell: So the tree told the boy all the gossip from the forest and introduced him to the family of red squirrels that had moved into her trunk.

[58:16] Susan Blackwell: While she was glad for the company the squirrels provided, she was concerned about the long-term health effects of hosting a burrow.

[58:23] Susan Blackwell: So the boy called the local arborist to explain that squirrels don't eat wood.

[58:27] Susan Blackwell: They only build nests in pre-existing holes.

[58:29] Susan Blackwell: So the tree was in no danger.

[58:31] Susan Blackwell: The tree was so relieved, and so was the boy.

[58:34] Susan Blackwell: He loved his friend and was concerned about her long-term health because she had taught him the importance of empathy.

[58:43] Susan Blackwell: And so it continued, the tree and the boy looking out for each other like that, both of them content in the knowledge that someone had their back.

[58:52] Susan Blackwell: The boy attended culinary school.

[58:55] Susan Blackwell: The tree took courses online and got her certification in small business management.

[59:00] Susan Blackwell: They did their homework together nearly every day.

[59:04] Susan Blackwell: The boy became a pastry chef.

[59:06] Susan Blackwell: Together, they opened a bakery selling the best apple pies anyone had ever tasted.

[59:12] Susan Blackwell: It turned a profit in the first 18 months, which is most uncommon.

[59:18] Susan Blackwell: Eventually, the boy had a son of his own, and much later, the son of the boy had his own family too.

[59:26] Susan Blackwell: Because of their friendship, the boy was successful and fulfilled, and the tree grew wider and stronger, standing tall and beautiful in the forest for many, many, many years.

[59:40] Susan Blackwell: Plus a few years even more after that.

[59:44] Susan Blackwell: And as each generation played in her strong old branches, the tree often thought back to the fateful day when the boy had asked her for a house.

[59:54] Susan Blackwell: In truth, she would have gladly given him her branches to build one.

[59:59] Susan Blackwell: She would have given him her trunk to build a boat.

[1:00:03] Susan Blackwell: She loved him that much.

[1:00:05] Susan Blackwell: But then she would have had nothing left, not for herself nor anyone else.

[1:00:11] Susan Blackwell: And there would have never been a home for the red squirrels.

[1:00:15] Susan Blackwell: There'd have been no hide and seek with the boy's grandchildren, no bakery with the best apple pies anyone had ever tasted.

[1:00:24] Susan Blackwell: Setting healthy boundaries is a very important part of giving.

[1:01:15] Laura Camien: You are a walking talking human spark.

[1:01:18] Laura Camien: There are other Topher Fixed It in the series.

[1:01:23] Laura Camien: And if you enjoy them, if you enjoyed that reading I just did, consider making a donation to the Atlanta Artist Relief Fund, which is providing crucial assistance to artists during the COVID crisis.

[1:01:35] Laura Camien: I'll tell you what, that's exactly what I did.

[1:01:38] Laura Camien: I went and I made a big old donation and I made it in honor of Emily and Amelia Nagoski for all of their amazing work.

[1:01:47] Laura Camien: Please check out their book, Burnout, The Secret to Unlocking the Stress Cycle and their podcast with them in a survival project 2020.

[1:01:54] Laura Camien: If you like this podcast and you like profanity and you like deep thinking, check it out.

[1:01:58] Laura Camien: And if you want just like a quick intro to their work, there's a great interview on Brene Brown's Unlocking Us podcast.

[1:02:06] Laura Camien: And that's a great spark to start you off.

[1:02:08] Laura Camien: So, real quick, what do we make of it?

[1:02:11] Laura Camien: Um, hopefully we make lives where we more consistently and thoughtfully complete the stress cycle.

[1:02:18] Laura Camien: We move all the way through the tunnel of feeling our feelings, and we can also do that by exercising, laughing, crying, hugging, petting a pet, connecting with others, and creating.

[1:02:31] Laura Camien: Most of all, you just want to keep those emotions in motion and keep those feelings moving.

[1:02:37] Laura Camien: Um, we can make work and support work that moves people that makes people laugh and cry and feel their feelings.

[1:02:47] Susan Blackwell: I think about that artist that we were talking with who's experiencing that profound burnout. And I think about how we can consciously make spaces and systems in our work and in our home lives where we can feel safe to process through our stress cycles. I think how we can consciously surround ourselves with collaborators who are also givers, who we can all work together to support each other and provide and receive that necessary support. But that means choosing collaborators who can recognize when someone in the group needs some extra support, time and space to complete the stress response cycle. So that is my spark. It was a long deep spark, but I hope that it will help people.

[1:03:37] Laura Camien: Oh, Seuss.

[1:03:38] Susan Blackwell: It's how you do it over there, Cam.

[1:03:42] Laura Camien: I'm doing good.

[1:03:43] Susan Blackwell: That was amazing. I love that spark. That giving tree stuff.

[1:03:50] Laura Camien: One, it was incredible. Topher fixed it. It's incredible.

[1:04:00] Susan Blackwell: Topher Payne is a playwright, a screenwriter, an author, an amazing director, like based in Georgia, just an amazing human being. Topher would also be an amazing guest on this podcast. Amazing. Amazing. I say we do a shout out to Topher. See if they're willing to come on.

[1:04:18] Laura Camien: Come on, Topher.

[1:04:22] Susan Blackwell: But it really had me thinking about my mom. And that's part of why I was crying, just because my mom hated the Giving Tree book so much. Like she felt so much resentment, frankly, for it was obvious the tree was a woman and was like continued to give until they had nothing left.

[1:04:46] Laura Camien: Yeah.

[1:04:47] Susan Blackwell: And that that would be some expectation. You know, we had the book, and I remember it and I read it a lot, but my mom would always make this point about the book, even back, you know, in the 70s. She was just like, this cannot be. This cannot be the way. And so I wish she was alive, you know, to read Topher fixed it. But the thing is, Cam, it sounds like she fixed it herself. She knew.

[1:05:19] Laura Camien: Yeah.

[1:05:19] Susan Blackwell: She knew.

[1:05:20] Laura Camien: She knew.

[1:05:21] Susan Blackwell: Well, she made sure to instill, you know, a deeper understanding in her kids that, you know, there's no good can come from being the martyr that gives every single thing away, just like Topher put it. Like, yeah, by that tree setting boundaries, it will survive for hundreds of more years to have great relationships with more people. Here's a little teaser for you. If you go just do a Google search of Topher Fixed It, the Giving Tree, and get yourself a good laugh by looking at the cover as he's fixed it. Like, just the cover is fucking funny. Like it's really, really good. So I hope that we'll get people to click on through. And I do encourage you to make a donation to support those artists in Atlanta.

[1:06:17] Laura Camien: Heck yeah, yeah, heck yeah.

[1:06:18] Susan Blackwell: Do it in the name of someone you love who you know may be experiencing burnout, even if that someone is you. Cam, shall we take a little break?

[1:06:26] Laura Camien: Take a break and then we'll get myself together.

[1:06:30] Susan Blackwell: Back into the candy shop. Shing a linga ling.

[1:06:33] Laura Camien: Okay, back in a second.

[1:06:35] Susan Blackwell: I hope that spark is helpful to people. It sheds so it casts so much light from me on so many things that I feel like you and I are knowing and doing and teaching intuitively, but to have it articulated in such a beautiful way is super helpful. And it also makes it much more sticky so that I can remember to implement it in my own life, but also remember to bring it into the teaching in a really, really clear way.

[1:07:05] Laura Camien: Yeah.

[1:07:05] Susan Blackwell: And it feels good to, you know, have some of the things that we've been doing to be, you know, validated, as we said, in that way, but it helps me personally to do these things more intentionally, like with the knowledge.

[1:07:21] Laura Camien: Very consciously, thoughtfully, absolutely.

[1:07:24] Susan Blackwell: And also to examine back to our artist, that was, you know, really that conversation was the genesis of the spark. And I'm so thankful to that artist for having that candid conversation with us. Really looking at the structures that you have in place in your life and where they, I don't think they necessarily, depending on the structure, need dismantling. They just need calibration, they need adjustments so that they can hue more closely to a really healthy, strong, sustainable structure.

[1:07:24] Laura Camien: You know.

[1:07:59] Susan Blackwell: That's right. Another reason I love the podcast that the Nagoski sisters do is that they podcast with their pets nearby, as you know, I frequently enjoy doing.

[1:08:10] Laura Camien: Yes, you do.

[1:08:11] Susan Blackwell: And so you hear one of them has this dog named Thunder, and you just hear like Thunder chewing on squeaky toys or Thunder, like yawning and shaking their collar. And I just, you know, it reminds me of our little podcast pets.

[1:08:28] Laura Camien: Yes, it's the little podcast in your sweater while recording.

[1:08:34] Susan Blackwell: I'm looking at you, kitty bunny, sweet girl.

[1:08:36] Laura Camien: What sweeties?

[1:08:38] Susan Blackwell: Yeah, we have our own podcast pets too. Podcast pals.

[1:08:38] Laura Camien: Podcast pets.

[1:08:44] Susan Blackwell: Hey, can we do like a line of stuffed animals that are called like podcast pals?

[1:08:49] Laura Camien: I don't see why podcast pals.

[1:08:52] Susan Blackwell: Cabbage Patch Kids can make it. I don't see why podcast pals can't be able to do that.

[1:08:55] Laura Camien: I think we can do the Sparks File Podcast pals if it can be a line of plush toys, but it also has to be a Saturday morning cartoon.

[1:09:05] Susan Blackwell: Okay, the mascot of breakfast cereal. Let's fully theme that shit.

[1:09:10] Susan Blackwell: Okay, okay, the Sparks File podcast pals.

[1:09:15] Laura Camien: I love it.

[1:09:16] Susan Blackwell: I love it.

[1:09:17] Laura Camien: And I really truly I I'm uh pensive because I'm reflecting already. I'm just like absorbing uh everything that you just uh threw at us there because I feel like uh I've been needing that information my whole life.

[1:09:32] Susan Blackwell: So it's a it's a real game changer and it's a real shift. You know, I feel the earth shifting.

[1:09:40] Laura Camien: I love that.

[1:09:41] Susan Blackwell: And I mirror it back to uh Emily and Amelia Nagoski. Thank you.

[1:09:45] Laura Camien: Thank you so much.

[1:09:46] Susan Blackwell: Doing that work. Now come on our podcast.

[1:09:49] Laura Camien: Yeah, and now come on our podcast. Um, because also, you know, burnout is just not something that um for many, many, many years of our life on this earth, uh, burnout was not considered really to be something real.

[1:10:05] Susan Blackwell: And so it took the work of scientists and doctors and others to put all of this together, researchers to put all this together and be able to explain it to give it the credence that it you know that it needed for people to understand it is a real thing, it's not it's not in our imagination.

[1:10:27] Laura Camien: It's not a fantasy, that's right.

[1:10:29] Susan Blackwell: That's not a real woman's psychosis, it is not labotomy not to be a big thing.

[1:10:34] Laura Camien: Give him cocaine for it, just give them cocaine for it.

[1:10:37] Susan Blackwell: That's right. Um, so wow, okay. My Sparks at first glance might feel like a complete, you know, 90 degree turn here.

[1:10:49] Laura Camien: Um, but actually, I'm as I think about it. I'm I think I've got a story that begins with a very, very, very burnt out person.

[1:11:01] Susan Blackwell: Um so I think there is a link here and if and a few things that you mentioned um have a little bit of overlap. So this is this is gonna be interesting if you take this ride with me.

[1:11:11] Laura Camien: Um My Spark ride.

[1:11:11] Susan Blackwell: Um My Spark begins with Craig Foster, and Foster is an acclaimed documentarian, and for years and years and years he had been writing, directing, producing documentaries, and he was just completely effing fried.

[1:11:33] Laura Camien: He was literally burnt out.

[1:11:35] Susan Blackwell: Hold on one second.

[1:11:38] Laura Camien: It was it's not, frankly, from my crying.

[1:11:41] Susan Blackwell: So give me one second. I got it. I want you to know I'm leaving all of this in.

[1:11:46] Laura Camien: This is gold.

[1:11:47] Susan Blackwell: This is a podcast gold, baby.

[1:11:49] Laura Camien: Yes.

[1:11:50] Susan Blackwell: All right, so that was my snot. I think I'm okay now. A special guest uh Louis Snot.

[1:11:56] Laura Camien: So Foster, um, yeah, he was completely fried. He was burnt out. He was disconnected from his family, from himself, and his uh creative gas tank was beyond empty.

[1:12:10] Susan Blackwell: It was way, way, way down. You know, when you go way below.

[1:12:15] Laura Camien: This is great.

[1:12:15] Susan Blackwell: Yeah, right.

[1:12:17] Laura Camien: So after, you know, great consideration, he decided to take himself literally out of the work environment, out of the hustle and bustle, and go back to where he grew up to try to replenish his creative well.

[1:12:34] Susan Blackwell: And frankly, try to get healthy again and revive himself. Where he grew up happened to be off the African coast near Cape Town with the ocean as his front yard.

[1:12:49] Laura Camien: Wow.

[1:12:49] Susan Blackwell: He told NPR his earliest memories. Um, my earliest memories and deepest memories, most powerful memories, were of this incredible coast and diving in what I call my magical childhood forest.

[1:13:05] Laura Camien: He said it's one of the greatest ecosystems on the planet.

[1:13:10] Susan Blackwell: So the coastline where he where he was had these dense, like kelp forests, which literally, like when you're underwater, look like a forest of trees, and you know, just swaying in the breeze.

[1:13:24] Laura Camien: It's absolutely gorgeous.

[1:13:27] Susan Blackwell: So here we have Foster. He left his job. He literally checked out of his former life, took his family and went back to his childhood home.

[1:13:36] Laura Camien: And he decided that he would go free diving every single day.

[1:13:41] Susan Blackwell: And he dove without a wetsuit or an oxygen tank in order to feel more connected to this ecosystem.

[1:13:50] Laura Camien: Can I pause you for just a second? I just want to acknowledge whenever I I think I know where we're headed with this, but whenever I'm excited about it, whenever I hear stuff like this, I always have questions like, Craig Foster, how did you afford to do this?

[1:14:08] Susan Blackwell: Like, like, do you have uh so I I'm so into this and it almost feels like a fantasy.

[1:14:15] Laura Camien: Yeah.

[1:14:16] Susan Blackwell: Because for so many of us, it's not an option just to be like, you know what? I've got enough in the bank that I'm just gonna go diving in the kelp forest.

[1:14:24] Laura Camien: But it sounds amazing.

[1:14:26] Susan Blackwell: And I just had to acknowledge the thought.

[1:14:29] Laura Camien: Rock on Craig Foster.

[1:14:31] Susan Blackwell: Yeah, I don't, and I don't know what you know what his uh extenuating circumstances were.

[1:14:38] Laura Camien: Yeah.

[1:14:38] Susan Blackwell: But I can tell like from his career, he worked his ass off.

[1:14:42] Laura Camien: So maybe he did save that money and decided no shade and no judgment.

[1:14:47] Susan Blackwell: But I'm also like, oh, that's a fucking privilege to get to.

[1:14:51] Laura Camien: Huge privilege.

[1:14:52] Susan Blackwell: Yeah.

[1:14:52] Laura Camien: Um, but he also mentioned his health.

[1:14:54] Susan Blackwell: And I do wonder if he had to take himself out of it because of his health.

[1:14:58] Laura Camien: So there's a mystery there.

[1:15:01] Susan Blackwell: I don't know.

[1:15:02] Laura Camien: That's okay.

[1:15:03] Susan Blackwell: Rock on.

[1:15:04] Laura Camien: Yeah.

[1:15:04] Susan Blackwell: Rock on.

[1:15:05] Laura Camien: Yeah.

[1:15:06] Susan Blackwell: Yeah.

[1:15:06] Laura Camien: I think that, you know, if if many of us, if we could do it, have fantasized about the idea of doing it.

[1:15:13] Susan Blackwell: But I can tell you from the beginning, it this story is gonna turn out positive, but I don't get the sense that this was a joyful, like, wee, I get to take a year or two to just, you know, swim around in the ocean.

[1:15:29] Laura Camien: This was a person this was a person in crisis.

[1:15:33] Susan Blackwell: Yes, yeah, well put well put.

[1:15:34] Laura Camien: Yeah.

[1:15:35] Susan Blackwell: So before we're like, I'm so jealous, be careful when you're like, I'm jealous of crank faster.

[1:15:40] Laura Camien: You just got to go dive with the kelp.

[1:15:42] Susan Blackwell: Like it's it's uh this is a person who was in responding to a real crisis in life.

[1:15:47] Laura Camien: Okay, yeah, I'm with you.

[1:15:49] Susan Blackwell: Okay, okay. Back in the kelp forest.

[1:15:50] Laura Camien: So yeah, but back in the kelp forest.

[1:15:52] Susan Blackwell: So he decided he would dive every day and without a wetsuit.

[1:15:56] Laura Camien: Um, and the water was sometimes as cold as 46 degrees, 46 degrees.

[1:16:03] Susan Blackwell: So that was an incredibly brave thing to do.

[1:16:06] Laura Camien: And of course, the water was like painful at first, but but he eventually adapted to it.

[1:16:11] Susan Blackwell: But he goes on to say about the water, this like the brisk, brisk temperature. You feel alive, you feel awake, you feel stimulated.

[1:16:21] Laura Camien: But because you can feel the water on your skin, you can feel the slight temperature differences, and you feel that much closer to nature.

[1:16:29] Susan Blackwell: Wow.

[1:16:30] Laura Camien: And as for his creativity, again, he told NPR day after day, I slowly started to get my energy back, and I realized that there was this whole new way of looking at this underwater forest.

[1:16:44] Susan Blackwell: And I started to come alive again.

[1:16:48] Laura Camien: Can I can I interrupt again?

[1:16:49] Susan Blackwell: Yeah, it it it just reflecting on two things.

[1:16:54] Laura Camien: One is the spark that I just shared about how the number one way to process through that stress cycle and you know, therefore hopefully move through burnout is that physical activity.

[1:17:04] Susan Blackwell: That's right.

[1:17:05] Laura Camien: So that he is like going that that's very like and get talk about engaging all muscles, that kind of like underwater work and to do it in cold water.

[1:17:17] Susan Blackwell: I've just I've been talking with uh our friend Ashley Van Buren. Hi, Ashley, a lot about I wasn't feeling so great some time ago, and she was like, I think you want to explore your relationship to cold water.

[1:17:30] Laura Camien: And I was like, that sounds uncomfortable.

[1:17:32] Susan Blackwell: Um, but even just like cold showers, things like that.

[1:17:36] Laura Camien: And so I have heard and read some stuff about there's something about that combination of physical activity, regular physical activity in cold water.

[1:17:47] Susan Blackwell: Listen, I'm not gonna do it, but I it I've it seems like there may be something beneficial.

[1:17:53] Laura Camien: Please consult your doctor before engaging in such activity.

[1:17:56] Susan Blackwell: 100%.

[1:17:57] Laura Camien: And I will meet you physical activity in cold water with number two on your list, which was breathing.

[1:18:03] Susan Blackwell: Here is a man who might be using a tank.

[1:18:07] Laura Camien: You're a genius.

[1:18:08] Susan Blackwell: So he is wait a second. So he takes he takes an air and then he dives, dives, dives, dives, dives, dives.

[1:18:15] Laura Camien: And like I'm sure he's constantly increasing his lung capacity and stamina, and then back up to the surface for air like a sea turtle.

[1:18:22] Susan Blackwell: That is correct.

[1:18:24] Laura Camien: Fucking amazing.

[1:18:25] Susan Blackwell: That is correct.

[1:18:26] Laura Camien: So so you've got number one and number two on your list so far.

[1:18:30] Susan Blackwell: Um, but I'm sure we're gonna come across some more shit.

[1:18:34] Laura Camien: Um so on these dives, needless to say, he comes across a huge assortment of animals and sea life and all kinds of critters, large and small.

[1:18:44] Susan Blackwell: Also, just to note, the waters off of Cape Town are a known to be shark infested, which does that shit.

[1:18:53] Laura Camien: I know, fuck that shit.

[1:18:54] Susan Blackwell: But he doesn't, it doesn't worry him at all, literally at all.

[1:18:58] Laura Camien: And number two, these are I know Foster's special.

[1:19:02] Susan Blackwell: He's also like, I mean, keep in mind.

[1:19:04] Laura Camien: Well, but he's he grew up here.

[1:19:05] Susan Blackwell: He grew up there.

[1:19:06] Laura Camien: This is his backyard.

[1:19:07] Susan Blackwell: Yes.

[1:19:07] Laura Camien: Yeah, exactly.

[1:19:08] Susan Blackwell: And honestly, I mean, even though I don't want to encounter a shark, but the statistics of being in the ocean and actually being uh approached and and bit by a shark are pretty damn low.

[1:19:21] Laura Camien: I mean, I live in a I I it could be argued.

[1:19:24] Susan Blackwell: I live in an area where I can walk out my door.

[1:19:27] Laura Camien: There's bears, there's uh that's right, coyotes, there's all sorts of things, but I don't live in fear.

[1:19:27] Susan Blackwell: That's right.

[1:19:32] Laura Camien: You know what I mean?

[1:19:32] Susan Blackwell: Exactly.

[1:19:33] Laura Camien: So it doesn't either.

[1:19:34] Susan Blackwell: So they are shark-infested waters.

[1:19:37] Laura Camien: Um, and there's some of the most dangerous waters on the globe.

[1:19:40] Susan Blackwell: Like there are really strong swells.

[1:19:43] Laura Camien: It's also called the Cape of Storms.

[1:19:46] Susan Blackwell: Surfers fucking love it there because it creates these ginormous waves for all of you surfers, you know.

[1:19:54] Laura Camien: It's a great place to be.

[1:19:56] Susan Blackwell: Yeah.

[1:19:56] Laura Camien: Oh no, it's a great place to get pitted or drop into a barrel roll there for those surfers out there.

[1:20:03] Susan Blackwell: For all the surfers that follow our podcast, I just wanted to say get pitted or drop into a barrel roll.

[1:20:09] Laura Camien: I thought what you were gonna say is get smashed by hard babes against like coral reefs and things like that.

[1:20:15] Susan Blackwell: Oh no, no, no, or that I was gonna say get pitted or drop into a barrel roll.

[1:20:19] Laura Camien: Sure.

[1:20:20] Susan Blackwell: Um, so yeah, that's what they love to do there.

[1:20:22] Laura Camien: Um, but wait, but do you know what that means?

[1:20:26] Susan Blackwell: I do, I do.

[1:20:27] Laura Camien: Oh, well, smell you.

[1:20:28] Susan Blackwell: Okay, go ahead.

[1:20:29] Laura Camien: I mean, I'm not a server, but I know what it means.

[1:20:31] Susan Blackwell: Look at me challenging you.

[1:20:33] Laura Camien: I'll know better next time.

[1:20:35] Susan Blackwell: So one day, Foster spots a common octopus, which is actually the name of the species, common octopus.

[1:20:43] Laura Camien: Not that it's common in any way.

[1:20:46] Susan Blackwell: No Tino Shade octopus.

[1:20:48] Laura Camien: That's right.

[1:20:48] Susan Blackwell: Um, but that's its name.

[1:20:50] Laura Camien: And he begins to watch this little guy go about its business in its natural habitat.

[1:20:59] Susan Blackwell: And soon after, Foster starts seeing this octopus more and more until it got to the point that he's starting to wonder is this octopus watching me?

[1:21:10] Laura Camien: Like who's watching who here?

[1:21:12] Susan Blackwell: They each have zoom and who octopus.

[1:21:16] Laura Camien: They had their eyes on each other, and over time, they form a legit relationship.

[1:21:25] Susan Blackwell: Oh is completely wild.

[1:21:28] Laura Camien: And this relationship they formed is the basis for the documentary.

[1:21:35] Susan Blackwell: Yeah.

[1:21:38] Laura Camien: Okay, so I should say, of course, as you know, we'll warn you spoiler alert.

[1:21:43] Susan Blackwell: If you're planning on watching this movie and you haven't yet, you should go watch it and then come back so we can talk about it.

[1:21:49] Laura Camien: Because I want to hear what everyone thinks too.

[1:21:51] Susan Blackwell: Have you seen it yet, Suze?

[1:21:52] Laura Camien: Cammyon.

[1:21:53] Susan Blackwell: You're gonna see I have seen.

[1:21:55] Laura Camien: I know.

[1:21:56] Susan Blackwell: I was like, there's no way you haven't seen it because I know you love octopus.

[1:22:00] Laura Camien: I have seen it.

[1:22:01] Susan Blackwell: My my friend Paul Bontoric, hi Paul, recommended it.

[1:22:04] Laura Camien: And um, I was so excited you're doing this spark.

[1:22:10] Susan Blackwell: And I was like, when should I say that I've seen it?

[1:22:12] Laura Camien: And I think this is the moment when I say I've seen it, and I'm super excited.

[1:22:16] Susan Blackwell: And the and and the relationship to the spark I just did is bananas because you just like you just said, they bought they had this bond with each other, which takes us to one of those words.

[1:22:29] Laura Camien: The affection.

[1:22:30] Susan Blackwell: We're gonna get the affection doesn't have to come from people, it can come from your octopus teacher.

[1:22:36] Laura Camien: Your octopus teacher, if you're lucky enough to have one.

[1:22:39] Susan Blackwell: I gotta get me one.

[1:22:40] Laura Camien: You do, you really do.

[1:22:42] Susan Blackwell: All right.

[1:22:42] Laura Camien: So we're gonna hit on some of these things, but I think we're gonna come up against some other things in your list.

[1:22:47] Susan Blackwell: But so, first of all, I'm not gonna go through the whole the whole movie, but I am gonna touch on like some of the highlights.

[1:22:55] Laura Camien: Um, uh, you know that they are incredibly smart, like like fucking problem-solving smart.

[1:23:06] Laura Camien: Insane.

[1:23:07] Susan Blackwell: Insanely smart.

[1:23:08] Laura Camien: And so after some time, like watching each other, Foster captured this really extraordinary thing on camera.

[1:23:15] Susan Blackwell: I had never seen this or ever heard of it.

[1:23:18] Laura Camien: But one of the ways that octopus protect themselves from predators when if they're in a conducive environment, is to collect shells, hundreds of shells, with they collect them with each arm and with each little sucker on each arm.

[1:23:36] Susan Blackwell: So, like imagine eight arms just covered with shells, and then they fold these arms up and around themselves like a ball with all the shells facing outward.

[1:23:50] Laura Camien: It's bananas, it's bananas, and it looks like this tight pile of rocks.

[1:23:57] Susan Blackwell: Yes, but it's like armor, honestly, and that's what the octopus is doing.

[1:24:02] Laura Camien: He he or she is building a suit of armor to shield its head, which is the most dangerous place for them to be attacked.

[1:24:10] Susan Blackwell: And Foster captures this moment on film watching the octopus do it.

[1:24:17] Laura Camien: And it's effing phenomenal.

[1:24:19] Susan Blackwell: It's bano news.

[1:24:20] Laura Camien: It's it's crazy.

[1:24:21] Susan Blackwell: And he had no idea what it was doing.

[1:24:23] Laura Camien: He even looked it up in scientific journals and was trying to find out like what the heck is going on.

[1:24:29] Susan Blackwell: And later in the movie.

[1:24:31] Laura Camien: Yeah, he realizes like when a shark comes along and the octopus does it again, he figures out what it is.

[1:24:37] Susan Blackwell: But uh I'd never seen any footage like that before.

[1:24:41] Laura Camien: So he it was extraordinary what he was able to capture.

[1:24:44] Susan Blackwell: It's extraordinary, and I don't want to jump your spark.

[1:24:47] Laura Camien: Don't jump a sparks, but but the the just focusing on this moment, the the that I wish that octopus had a name.

[1:24:54] Susan Blackwell: Not that I we need to, what's that word when people try to personify animals?

[1:24:59] Laura Camien: Yeah, yeah.

[1:24:59] Susan Blackwell: Like I I don't uh mean to do that, but can we give it a name just so that we don't have to say octopi and octopus for the rest of this?

[1:25:06] Laura Camien: Let's call it uh Roger.

[1:25:08] Susan Blackwell: Okay, so this is my spark.

[1:25:10] Laura Camien: Oh, sorry, what do you want to call it?

[1:25:13] Susan Blackwell: I've call it things throughout.

[1:25:15] Laura Camien: Do we have to give it a name?

[1:25:17] Susan Blackwell: No, yes, we'll call it Jerry.

[1:25:20] Laura Camien: Listen, when that when Jerry does that thing where it makes itself look like a pile of rocks, it is one of the most batshit crazy things I have ever seen.

[1:25:31] Susan Blackwell: It was amazing.

[1:25:33] Laura Camien: And that he captured it.

[1:25:35] Susan Blackwell: I could see how it started to refill his spark tank.

[1:25:40] Laura Camien: Like it started to relieve his burnout.

[1:25:42] Susan Blackwell: And it seems like it's he started to be delighted by the world again.

[1:25:46] Laura Camien: Yeah.

[1:25:46] Susan Blackwell: Yeah.

[1:25:47] Laura Camien: It definitely put him on track.

[1:25:49] Susan Blackwell: It was one, you know, one of the key moments for sure.

[1:25:53] Laura Camien: But the moment that he felt this really seismic shift in their relationship, uh, one day after like I would say for several weeks of them observing each other from a very safe distance, they've gradually got closer and closer together.

[1:26:10] Susan Blackwell: And on this particular unforgettable day, Foster reaches his hand out, and just a finger, really, and slowly, like from under Liz or her den, our little buddy reaches out with one tentacle and makes contact.

[1:26:33] Laura Camien: And she put her tentacle literally like right into Foster's hand in the most like gentle and curious way.

[1:26:43] Susan Blackwell: And it was like really feeling like feeling his hand, and the little suckers were attaching.

[1:26:52] Laura Camien: And they have this magical moment of connection that I just think is so breathless.

[1:26:59] Susan Blackwell: It's beautiful.

[1:27:00] Laura Camien: And I'm so happy to be reminded of this.

[1:27:03] Susan Blackwell: And also, Cam's, we don't have to call the octopus Jerry.

[1:27:05] Laura Camien: I'm so that's okay.

[1:27:07] Susan Blackwell: I just want to clean that up.

[1:27:09] Laura Camien: That's okay.

[1:27:10] Susan Blackwell: Um, this moment is breathless, and then of course, Foster realizes oh shit, I'm about to run out of breath.

[1:27:20] Laura Camien: Oh, that's right.

[1:27:21] Susan Blackwell: He doesn't have a tank on.

[1:27:23] Laura Camien: He's like, He doesn't have a tank on.

[1:27:25] Susan Blackwell: I'm in the middle of this beautiful, beautiful moment, and I have to go up for air.

[1:27:30] Laura Camien: So he didn't want to break the connection, of course, but he has to breathe.

[1:27:34] Susan Blackwell: So he has this is so amazing.

[1:27:37] Laura Camien: This like sense of urgency of like shit, I've got to go get some more air.

[1:27:42] Susan Blackwell: But he also has to like really carefully unstick himself from the octopus without like breaking that bond.

[1:27:49] Laura Camien: Oh because if he goes quickly, he'll startle the octopus, or if he like tears himself away quickly.

[1:27:57] Susan Blackwell: Undo all of that, like like slow, slow bonding that's right been occurring.

[1:28:02] Laura Camien: Oh my god.

[1:28:02] Susan Blackwell: That had taken so long.

[1:28:05] Laura Camien: And so Foster described that moment.

[1:28:09] Susan Blackwell: I thought was really interesting.

[1:28:11] Laura Camien: He said, that's when I realized this animal, trust me, she no longer sees me as a threat.

[1:28:18] Susan Blackwell: And her fear changes to curiosity, which is interesting because it's like you said, it was that's the same thing that was happening for Foster.

[1:28:27] Laura Camien: Is like his mind was engaging in a curious exploration again.

[1:28:31] Susan Blackwell: Yes.

[1:28:32] Laura Camien: And he said, that's when the real excitement comes, and you think, oh my goodness, I'm being let into the secret world of this wild animal.

[1:28:42] Susan Blackwell: And that's when you feel on fire.

[1:28:47] Laura Camien: And I just love that.

[1:28:49] Susan Blackwell: I just like it was super, super delightful to watch this on film and to see their relationship as it formed.

[1:28:55] Laura Camien: It was kind of like um like a little rom com montage.

[1:29:01] Susan Blackwell: Like they had a cute, they're playful with each other, they hang out.

[1:29:06] Laura Camien: He follows the octopus around and films things that she does, you know.

[1:29:10] Susan Blackwell: Um slowly, slowly they kind of come together.

[1:29:14] Laura Camien: Slowly, yeah.

[1:29:16] Susan Blackwell: There's a patience about that uh documentary that is so and but with payoff, yes, and it's like real real magic.

[1:29:27] Laura Camien: I would describe that patience also as the patience you might have with yourself when you are recovering from trauma or when you are healing from burnout and you know, letting yourself have that time.

[1:29:43] Susan Blackwell: This all happened very organically.

[1:29:45] Laura Camien: He didn't start going into the water with his camera.

[1:29:49] Susan Blackwell: He was just like, I'm gonna go into the water every day.

[1:29:52] Laura Camien: I'm gonna make myself do it.

[1:29:54] Susan Blackwell: He did not think like I'm because remember, he was burnt out from making documentaries.

[1:29:59] Laura Camien: He was not like, I'm gonna go into the water and make another film.

[1:30:03] Susan Blackwell: Um he was like, I just I need to heal to recover.

[1:30:07] Laura Camien: Yeah.

[1:30:09] Susan Blackwell: So these creatures, these octopus are phenomenal.

[1:30:16] Laura Camien: Like phenomenal.

[1:30:18] Susan Blackwell: In addition to their brain, which by the way, I didn't realize this.

[1:30:22] Laura Camien: Maybe I had heard it somewhere, but never put it together.

[1:30:26] Susan Blackwell: These little guys have to teach themselves everything.

[1:30:31] Laura Camien: I mean, everything, because they are completely alone in the world from day one.

[1:30:36] Susan Blackwell: Their father dies shortly after mating with the female.

[1:30:42] Laura Camien: So like they have sex, and then the the male dies, and then the mother stays alive just to hatch these eggs, and that's it.

[1:30:53] Susan Blackwell: She births about half a million eggs, half a million tiny, tiny, tiny little octopus, and only a handful of those survive.

[1:31:02] Laura Camien: So those that do survive are entirely on their own, and they have to figure everything out for themselves.

[1:31:09] Susan Blackwell: Like, so all of that, like how to avoid predators, figure it out.

[1:31:14] Laura Camien: You're on your on your own.

[1:31:16] Susan Blackwell: And then after she does that, after she pops out all those eggs, did you say, does she just piece out?

[1:31:23] Laura Camien: And is she like deuces or does she die?

[1:31:25] Susan Blackwell: Like what she does.

[1:31:26] Laura Camien: And we'll talk about this particular one at the end.

[1:31:29] Susan Blackwell: But but the female die after after giving birth.

[1:31:34] Laura Camien: Yeah.

[1:31:34] Susan Blackwell: Good.

[1:31:34] Laura Camien: And so all those little things.

[1:31:36] Susan Blackwell: This is a good spark.

[1:31:37] Laura Camien: This that's a there's something in there.

[1:31:38] Susan Blackwell: There's a good spark.

[1:31:40] Laura Camien: There's there's yeah, there's a great natural metaphor in there.

[1:31:44] Susan Blackwell: There is, there is.

[1:31:45] Laura Camien: And he, of course, he knew it was coming too because he understood the life cycle of these animals.

[1:31:51] Susan Blackwell: Um my god, it's so poignant.

[1:31:55] Laura Camien: Oh, so anyhow, all these octopus who who are born are on their own and they're so freaking smart and they have to get smart real fast on their own.

[1:32:06] Susan Blackwell: They're resourceful and they're intelligent, and they don't have anyone else to learn from.

[1:32:12] Laura Camien: They don't have any buddies who are like, hey, you know, if you hide under here, this is where they can't get you.

[1:32:18] Susan Blackwell: Um, it's amazing.

[1:32:20] Laura Camien: So, in addition to their smarts, they have what Foster calls their incredible creativity to deceive.

[1:32:28] Susan Blackwell: What?

[1:32:29] Laura Camien: This is the best.

[1:32:32] Susan Blackwell: Just based on what you've just said a couple of times, maybe the name for the octopus could be buddy.

[1:32:36] Laura Camien: I don't know.

[1:32:36] Susan Blackwell: Little buddy.

[1:32:37] Laura Camien: I call him little buddy.

[1:32:39] Susan Blackwell: Well, I call her little buddy and little friend quite a bit in my spark.

[1:32:43] Laura Camien: So that's kind of what I was thinking of her as little buddy.

[1:32:47] Susan Blackwell: Okay.

[1:32:47] Laura Camien: Um that feels if you want to make that official, I feel comfortable with that.

[1:32:52] Susan Blackwell: Okay.

[1:32:52] Laura Camien: All right, little buddy.

[1:32:53] Susan Blackwell: Have the t-shirts presented.

[1:32:55] Laura Camien: Maybe, oh, maybe little buddy can be one of the pot the Sparks Bob podcast pals.

[1:33:00] Susan Blackwell: She has to be.

[1:33:01] Laura Camien: She has to be little buddy.

[1:33:01] Susan Blackwell: Little buddy.

[1:33:05] Laura Camien: Wait, maybe it's Little Buddy L-I-L.

[1:33:07] Susan Blackwell: I think it's little buddy.

[1:33:09] Laura Camien: Yeah.

[1:33:10] Susan Blackwell: And you have to say her name like that.

[1:33:13] Laura Camien: This is gonna be great.

[1:33:14] Susan Blackwell: Okay, great.

[1:33:15] Laura Camien: Um, okay, so they have this incredible creativity to deceive.

[1:33:21] Susan Blackwell: They are constantly being hunted by sharks in particular.

[1:33:25] Laura Camien: Um, but here's a couple things our little buddies have going for them.

[1:33:32] Susan Blackwell: Number one, the circuit, the surface of the octopus, her skin, if you will, can transform in a million ways.

[1:33:41] Laura Camien: Um she can make it spiky, she can make it smooth, she can grow little horns out of the top of her head when she chooses.

[1:33:50] Susan Blackwell: And this is all like making herself look a little bit.

[1:33:53] Laura Camien: She should be a costume designer.

[1:33:55] Susan Blackwell: Yes, yes, um, it makes her look more like the coral when she wants to hide there.

[1:34:01] Laura Camien: It can take the shape of rocks like a sculpture.

[1:34:05] Susan Blackwell: Its body is truly liquid, literally fluid-like, so it can also make itself appear to be flowing in the tide, just like the kelp would be, so it can make itself blend in there.

[1:34:21] Laura Camien: Um, they can match color, texture, pattern, skin with their surroundings, so they can be camouflaged.

[1:34:31] Susan Blackwell: Um, oh, and the inkjet that it like can produce, so it literally disappears into a cloud of smoke when it's being chased.

[1:34:40] Laura Camien: I mean, they are so incredible, yeah.

[1:34:43] Susan Blackwell: And so one of the amazing things that I really got a kick out of in this was just thinking about, like, in addition to the creative ways they deceive and hide in order to survive.

[1:34:56] Laura Camien: They've also done studies about octopus and their ability to play.

[1:35:02] Susan Blackwell: And that's it's kind of unusual for, you know, there's only certain species of animals that that play.

[1:35:09] Laura Camien: In another documentary called Power of Play, they studied the importance of play in human, healthy human interaction.

[1:35:16] Susan Blackwell: Maybe there's that laughter component, too.

[1:35:20] Laura Camien: And how playing as a child is essential to being mentally healthy as an adult.

[1:35:26] Susan Blackwell: Um, it can be true in animal behavior as well.

[1:35:30] Laura Camien: There's a few notable animals who seem to engage in acts of playfulness.

[1:35:35] Susan Blackwell: And the Pacific octopus is one of them.

[1:35:38] Laura Camien: In that documentary, they were spraying down one of the tanks that were full of fish and octopus.

[1:35:44] Susan Blackwell: And one of these little buddies came over to check out what was going on.

[1:35:49] Laura Camien: And the octopus started to like reach out of the water and reach for the fresh water that was being sprayed, just like kids playing in a freaking sprinkler.

[1:36:00] Susan Blackwell: Um, he he was like reaching for and playing with the spray of water, and he eventually like turned himself completely upside down.

[1:36:10] Laura Camien: So the spray was like tickling all of his tentacles on the on like underneath him, which is really, really amazing.

[1:36:18] Susan Blackwell: And anytime they stopped spraying, the octopus would squirt water back.

[1:36:23] Laura Camien: Like, hey, keep going here.

[1:36:25] Susan Blackwell: Like, we got something going here.

[1:36:27] Laura Camien: So they did a whole game of like back and forth.

[1:36:31] Susan Blackwell: They're just fucking delightful.

[1:36:35] Laura Camien: And then another um, like an experiment in Scientific American at the Seattle aquarium, they put several octopus in a tank along with this little floating little bobber, like like the size of a pill bottle or something.

[1:36:51] Laura Camien: And at first the octopus didn't do anything with it, but then eventually one of the animals blew like a jet of water at the pill bottle and caused it to like bounce around. And it was delighted with this. And he got the other one involved, and they just like batted this little bottle around like more than 20 times back and forth, just like the way we like bounce a ball. Oh my God. And it was clearly for play because like when we bounce a ball, we're not trying to like get rid of the ball. We're trying to figure out what we can do with this and how will it respond if I do this or that? And they're playing around doing the same exact thing. And in this documentary, we see that he discovers, uh, Foster discovers his little buddy playing with a school of fish.

And it was beautiful to watch. It seemed like at first he might be chasing them in order to feed off of them. But then you realize, like, you realize like when he catches them, he's not harming them in any way. He's just like playfully swatting at them so that the whole school of fish will like redirect one way and then the other way. And he's just playing. I just think it's amazing to consider animals, like how they might spend their days. And some of them were like, yeah, I'm gonna hang out, see what the fish are doing right now. Sometimes I have to hunt for food, sometimes I have to, I want to rest, sometimes I get to play. Yep. So watching that, like that reminds me of the laughter in your spark because it's, you know, purposeful in like play has a purpose as well, I guess.

[1:38:33] Laura Camien: So over time we watch Foster and his little buddy as they build this lovely relationship, and then one day Foster captures footage of our guy being hunted by a shark. And this was tough to watch. He, Foster said the first instinct was to like scare the shark away. To intervene. Yeah, but he knew that that would be interfering and that would be unfair. Um, but pajama shark can smell the octopus, and it's not so much that they can see it, but they can smell it. So it's harder for him or her to evade that type of shark because it's not a visual thing. And so she is hiding under this rock. Um, but pajama shark have these noses that are built to like be able to fit into these small cracks for exactly this purpose.

So one of the sharks gets his nose under there and like clamps down on one of her arms. It's very stressful. It's very stressful. He pulls her out from under the rock and does a death roll, just like a gator would, you know, uh, until he tears one of her arms off. Thankfully, he seems to be satisfied with that and, you know, and takes off with it. And our little buddy gets herself safely back under the rock where she stays for a week. And of course, Foster is stressing out the entire time thinking like it might be the end for her. Like, is she in there dying? And in the film, he said, I felt very vulnerable, as if somehow what happened to her had happened to me in some way. You start thinking about your own death, your own vulnerability, worry about your family, your child. I hadn't been a person who was overly sentimental towards animals before, but I realized I was changing. She was teaching me to become sensitized to the other, especially wild creatures.

[1:40:52] Laura Camien: And this led me to a little bit of a side spark. This is the mirror neurons that I mentioned earlier. Um, you talked about like, um, that experience of like when we want to cry, turning on a movie and watching something happen to someone else that we know will make us cry. Yeah. Um, mirror neurons are the part of our brains that respond when we see someone else feeling something or experiencing something. And it is essentially how we explain empathy. And um, I'm truly fascinated by this. Um, also, like in relation to your spark, Suze, because they haven't figured out why. If we all have mirror neurons, why do some people have such vastly different levels of empathy? And why it seems in this current moment in time in our country anyway, it seems that we've been seeing more and more people who have to experience something themselves in order to believe it's true or to believe it's real or to feel something about it.

Um, and I don't know, this is just a total side spark. I either I'm gonna dive into it later or someone else can dive into it later. But I just think like there's potentially something affecting our mirror neurons. Um, or we all need to reconnect with nature, get out of ourselves for a little while, just like Foster did, in order to like reignite our sense of empathy. It's just a thought, but I do think um some of these things are related in a way.

[1:42:38] Laura Camien: So back to our little friend, the octopus. Good news, the arm grows back. Little buddy got an arm. Little buddy got a little arm about a week after the incident, she came out of her den in a tiny, tiny little arm. Little baby arm. She got a little baby arm, started to grow back. And uh just 100 days later, it was fully grown. So that is, uh, octopi are amazing. Amazing that a hundred days later, that little buddy had a fresh, fully grown arm. It's incredible. It's just another reason why they're just amazing. Yeah, just amazing. They're phenomenal. And Foster said like he could feel her confidence grew back with it, obviously, and he felt his own confidence growing back too that he had been so disconnected and so burnt out.

This animal was gradually building him back up again. And he said his relationship with humans was changing and starting to revive as well. And if this animal could withstand an attack that severe and fully recover, he was starting to feel like maybe he could fully recover too. Wow. Look at him processing through that burnout.

[1:43:58] Laura Camien: So as I was watching this movie and marveling at how incredible um these animals are, I was reminded of this experience I was working on that I had when I was working on a Blue Man project. This is a small tangent with a few side sparks, but you've got to go with me personally. You know I'm with you. So one time with Blue Man Group, we were shooting an episode of Undercover Boss, and it wasn't like with his tangent his head. Right, yeah. It wasn't for Blue Man. Um, like we weren't gonna be the undercut, the, you know, the boss wasn't gonna be a blue man, but it was for the cruise line, Norwegian cruise line, which we had a show on. So they were filming on the ship, and we would do a segment with them, like from the theater on board.

And as the company spokesperson, I had to get on the ship for the filming of the show. It was a Mediterranean cruise. I did not mind that part of my job. I did not mind that I had to go for a week because once you're on, you can't like I couldn't just go for the filming day and then leave. I was forced to spend a week. So I had the most amazing time sidebar. But um, as it relates to my spark, I ended up bonding with the crew from the Discovery Channel. And I really loved the director of the show. Hi, Gary, if you're listening. Hi, Gary. Hi, Gary. And we would all hang out after the shoot each day. And I would essentially corner Gary and ask him to tell me about the coolest things he had ever filmed.

Because he had worked for Nat Geo and Discovery, and you know, I'm a freaking nerd. So these are like my the most exciting channels on TV to me. So history and all of that. So I was like, you gotta tell me like what have you, what have you filmed? What's been the most amazing things? And he said one of his favorite things was a shoot they did at the giant crystal caves in Mexico. Have you heard of this? Do you know what these are?

[1:46:01] Susan Blackwell: I have I I have not. I know about the crystal caverns in Kentucky, but talk about Mexico.

[1:46:07] Laura Camien: These are amazing. There are caves in Chihuahua, Mexico filled with these giant, and I mean giant columns of gypsum. They look like these, um, oh, they look like um Superman's Fortress, like in the 80s version of Superman with Christopher Reeves. So there's these, there they've been there for half a million years, completely uninterrupted until they were found recently by this mining company. But the thing is, the caves where these are are one of the hottest places on earth. The cave can get to like 113 degrees with humidity levels at a hundred percent. So if you as a human go down in these caves without proper gear, your brain will boil. Susan, it will boil. So you have to wear like an ice hat with proper gear.

Suze, you have they made these suits that are like cooling suits that first of all they had to make them. They only last for 45 minutes. So you can only like for filming, they had 45 minutes to get yourself as far down into this tunnel, uh, into this cave as you could. Yeah. Try to film it. Try to make sure that you get yourself out before your brain boils. I mean, what? Could you just die? Could you just die? Oh, you actually could. So you have to be careful. This is a major side spark for me. Like they, you know how they have movies about cave diving. This is diving spark, right? They have movies about cave diving. I want a movie set in or around these caves. Let's make that happen. Like the tension that he just as he was telling me what they had to go through to capture what was down in these caves, it's an incredible adventure. And I haven't seen any movies set there. So that needs to change.

[1:48:06] Laura Camien: So that's A. But B, then Gary tells me that he also worked with James Cameron and he filmed at the site of the Titanic. Not the movie. Oh, the real site. Wow. Wow. When they went down there with like multiple cameras and those deep sea pods to try to get a closer look. So he has explored some very rare air or some very rare sea. He has literally been in places on this earth that only a handful of human beings can say that they've been. Wow. I was mesmerized by this. So then, of course, this is how it relates back to my spark. I had to ask him, what is the one thing you would film if you could film anything in the world? And he said, giant squid. And I totally get it, Suze, because no one has been able to get any decent footage of them because they live so deep in the sea.

Or if they're spotted not that deep, they will immediately go so deep in the sea that literally no light exists there. And they're fast as hell. These creatures are mind-blowingly big, or so we think, but it's hard to document things you can't find. But the male squid supposedly can be up to 43 feet long, and the female can be 39, 40 feet long. But frankly, we don't even have enough documentation to know for sure. But we have had there have been some big old giant squid that have washed up for sure. So we do have that. I mean, we don't. Somebody does. Someone does. Someone does. Yeah. But we, but seeing them in their live like in their element, we don't have much. And the ones of obviously the ones have washed up have died.

So are they small and were attacked by something larger? Are they, you know, we just talked about it. Oh my God. Right. Amazing. Amazing. So something larger. Holy moly. So the idea of the giant squid, conscious of like Moby Dick and 20,000 leagues Under the sea. Yeah. These enormous sea creatures that we've seen people draw, like in science fiction or old caps and captain logs from the 1700s or 1800s. Gary said that James Cameron actually approached the government with an idea of how to capture these giant squid on film.

[1:50:40] Laura Camien: What?

[1:50:41] Susan Blackwell: His idea was to simulate.

[1:50:44] Laura Camien: See, part of the problem is they're so freaking fast.

[1:50:47] Susan Blackwell: So even if we spot them, we can't catch them to like film them.

[1:50:52] Laura Camien: So James Cameron's idea was how do you get the squid to look for us instead of us looking for the squid?

[1:50:59] Susan Blackwell: So his idea was to simulate squid bait, which is a whale.

[1:51:05] Laura Camien: So since giant squid eat whales, um, he pitched the idea.

[1:51:05] Susan Blackwell: Right.

[1:51:05] Laura Camien: He pitched the idea to create like a sub that looks and moves, like, say, an orca.

[1:51:21] Susan Blackwell: So instead of us chasing the giant squid, it chases us, and that's how we'll get our footage.

[1:51:27] Laura Camien: Maybe just strap a camera to an orca.

[1:51:30] Susan Blackwell: I don't know.

[1:51:31] Laura Camien: I mean, I'm sure James Cameron thought this out thoroughly.

[1:51:33] Susan Blackwell: But wow.

[1:51:34] Laura Camien: He truly pitched the government.

[1:51:36] Susan Blackwell: Um, the government denied.

[1:51:39] Laura Camien: They were like bass.

[1:51:40] Susan Blackwell: We're gonna pass on that.

[1:51:41] Laura Camien: Just the notion that we could build that large of a fish, uh, is ridiculous.

[1:51:47] Susan Blackwell: And that the squid, as smart as they are, wouldn't be able to tell that it isn't real.

[1:51:51] Laura Camien: It would, it would hear the gears and the mechanics of it.

[1:51:55] Susan Blackwell: You know what I mean?

[1:51:55] Laura Camien: Like it would not be fooled for a second.

[1:51:57] Susan Blackwell: Yeah, they're really fucking smart.

[1:51:59] Laura Camien: So suffice to say, it may be a while before we get a good look at these creatures, um, but it's so good for the imagination.

[1:52:06] Susan Blackwell: When you think about how flat and how clever these small size or more regular, familiar size octopus are, it really makes me wonder like what the giant squid are capable of.

[1:52:20] Laura Camien: When Gary was talking about it, genuinely he had the look of like Captain Quint from Jaws, you know, like the uh play by Robert Shaw that when he gets that glimmer in his eye and he's like, oh, he's gonna capture that shark.

[1:52:34] Susan Blackwell: He had that same look in his eye that was like, we're gonna, we've gotta find this, we've gotta find this creature.

[1:52:43] Laura Camien: We have to, and he didn't want to kill it.

[1:52:45] Susan Blackwell: He wanted obviously to film it and to understand it.

[1:52:48] Laura Camien: So speaking of filming and understanding things back to our film, there's a moment in the film where Foster notes that 80% of an octopus's perception is not in their brain.

[1:53:01] Susan Blackwell: It's in their tentacles, and it doesn't go to their brain, like the information they receive and decision making happens um, like in an isolated way in their tentacles.

[1:53:12] Laura Camien: Yeah.

[1:53:13] Susan Blackwell: And they literally feel things and perceive things from other parts of their body rather than in their brain.

[1:53:19] Laura Camien: And of all the things, this really got me thinking, if that's true for them, it has to be at least partially true for humans.

[1:53:29] Susan Blackwell: That we that there are things that we know from other from our senses that are it's not from logic in our brain, it's from senses, right?

[1:53:40] Laura Camien: Okay, all right.

[1:53:41] Susan Blackwell: I'll take that, right?

[1:53:42] Laura Camien: Right.

[1:53:42] Susan Blackwell: And it, I just think like because there's no way to measure it.

[1:53:46] Laura Camien: Sometimes when you talk about it, it gets lumped in sort of the loosey goosey, the um oh my gosh, what's that name?

[1:53:55] Susan Blackwell: The um, you know, all the touchy feely sort of like woo-woo things.

[1:54:00] Laura Camien: It goes into the woo control.

[1:54:03] Susan Blackwell: Um, and it doesn't get much credence like scientifically, because there's no way to measure it.

[1:54:10] Laura Camien: But I think I really do think we can point to times when we just know something and we couldn't say why, we could just feel it.

[1:54:19] Susan Blackwell: Um, so I started to do just a tiny bit of research on that too, that that like the human body sends eleven million bits per second to the brain for processing, but the conscious mind is only able to process like 50 bits.

[1:54:35] Laura Camien: So 11 million bits of information to 50 bits that actually are, you know, perceived and processed.

[1:54:45] Susan Blackwell: Um, so the the vast majority of sensations are ignored by our conscious mind, while like those that we can recognize and process, we can name them and they become perceptions, which we can categorize and like understand.

[1:55:02] Laura Camien: Yeah.

[1:55:02] Susan Blackwell: But there's a whole lot of information we're getting and we're receiving at any time that isn't making it into the processor.

[1:55:11] Laura Camien: Yeah.

[1:55:11] Susan Blackwell: If that makes sense.

[1:55:13] Laura Camien: Yeah.

[1:55:13] Susan Blackwell: And some people I think talk about it like a gut, a gut brain, which is like referred to as sort of the bundle of nerves that is like a second brain.

[1:55:22] Laura Camien: There's parts of your body that connect to the to the the gut brain.

[1:55:27] Susan Blackwell: And we call that like a gut feeling, like you just know it.

[1:55:31] Laura Camien: Yeah.

[1:55:31] Susan Blackwell: Um, yeah, I feel like there's a lot to look into um there.

[1:55:38] Laura Camien: Like you had mentioned even in your spark about like your body knowing things even before you do.

[1:55:45] Susan Blackwell: Yeah.

[1:55:45] Laura Camien: And also storing that knowledge, like the body, yeah, until you process it out, you you know how it can get stored or stuck.

[1:55:55] Susan Blackwell: Yeah.

[1:55:55] Laura Camien: For sure.

[1:55:56] Susan Blackwell: Yeah.

[1:55:56] Laura Camien: So I think um I found it, I found it very, very curious that they can prove that they know that to be true in octopus, but you know, uh it's not I wouldn't say it's sort of collectively known, at least in what in Western medicine, um, that humans might have that ability as well.

[1:56:16] Susan Blackwell: Yeah, you know, that makes sense.

[1:56:18] Laura Camien: So back to Foster and his little buddy.

[1:56:21] Susan Blackwell: Near the one year mark, Foster had this really, really special moment where our little buddy hugged him, kind of.

[1:56:32] Laura Camien: He didn't like well, she didn't put her arms, you know, in a traditional like uh tentacles all the way around, but she gripped onto his chest, um, her entire body gripped onto his chest.

[1:56:45] Susan Blackwell: Oh my god.

[1:56:46] Laura Camien: And stayed there for a while.

[1:56:50] Susan Blackwell: And he had he was just below the surface, so he could like pop up and get breath, and they were able to stay like that for a significant amount of time, and it was astonishing.

[1:57:03] Laura Camien: Amazing.

[1:57:04] Susan Blackwell: It was really amazing.

[1:57:05] Laura Camien: I thought so many thoughts and feelings when I was watching that moment, and it made me think of how like when our animals cuddle up to us, when we cuddle up to each other, that sort of feeling of affection and connection.

[1:57:19] Susan Blackwell: Yeah.

[1:57:20] Laura Camien: And how it just, as I said in my spark, how it it feels like it does lower your blood pressure, it does feel like there's a cascade of what we would think of as the positive feeling chemicals.

[1:57:32] Susan Blackwell: And even watching it on that documentary.

[1:57:36] Laura Camien: That's your mirror neuron.

[1:57:38] Susan Blackwell: They gave me that feeling.

[1:57:40] Laura Camien: And I also think sometimes, like when POTUS is in my sweatshirt, and I'm like, I think POTUS and I love each other so much.

[1:57:47] Susan Blackwell: But also it could be, I think POTUS is seeking the warmest spot in the house.

[1:57:51] Laura Camien: And I was like, I wonder if that octopus is just enjoying just like you are so maybe.

[1:57:58] Susan Blackwell: But I think I've I think that even thinking that the octopus needs the needed to be warm is probably projection as well.

[1:58:09] Laura Camien: Because that's not really how they live.

[1:58:11] Susan Blackwell: But but it is so interesting to listen, like you're literally talking about your mirror neurons and what you felt while you watched them experience this tender moment and what you were talking about with like the creative expression.

[1:58:25] Laura Camien: Whether we're the one who created it or whether we're bearing witness, we can absorb the goodness, you know.

[1:58:33] Susan Blackwell: Yes, Camien preach, preach.

[1:58:37] Laura Camien: Preach.

[1:58:37] Susan Blackwell: So we have hit, we have hit so many of I I'm so glad I took notes while you gave your spark because I'm like, yeah, we get all of this.

[1:58:46] Laura Camien: So he's getting his um, you know, social interaction, his affection.

[1:58:51] Susan Blackwell: Um soon he will also cry.

[1:58:56] Laura Camien: We'll talk about that.

[1:58:57] Susan Blackwell: Um, this beautiful long hug was the last physical connection that they had with each other.

[1:59:05] Laura Camien: The next day, our little buddy mated with another octopus and then went into her day.

[1:59:13] Susan Blackwell: You know what?

[1:59:14] Laura Camien: Mating time means?

[1:59:16] Susan Blackwell: Yeah, it's not good for either one of them.

[1:59:19] Laura Camien: And I think, you know, I'm now I'm just making up a story, but I think that she knew that's what was gonna happen to her next.

[1:59:27] Susan Blackwell: I think she was right on target, and I think that big hug was a goodbye.

[1:59:32] Laura Camien: And so the next day she mates and she goes into her den and she never comes out.

[1:59:37] Susan Blackwell: Because you don't think that that, but you saying I know I I think that hug what was a like known goodbye that isn't anthropomorphism.

[1:59:46] Laura Camien: Do you really think that she knew that that mark?

[1:59:50] Susan Blackwell: I don't know.

[1:59:50] Laura Camien: I've made up that story in my mind.

[1:59:52] Susan Blackwell: I mean, I'll I'll yeah, you know, I don't know if they're aware of death.

[1:59:52] Laura Camien: You know, I don't know if if she's aware of like what comes next for her and then what comes after that.

[2:00:04] Susan Blackwell: Um I don't know.

[2:00:06] Laura Camien: Or if somehow, like on some level, she knew this would be the last opportunity.

[2:00:11] Susan Blackwell: Um but doesn't think about it in that way.

[2:00:15] Laura Camien: Yeah, change is coming, maybe.

[2:00:17] Susan Blackwell: Yeah, I don't know.

[2:00:19] Laura Camien: Um I like thinking about it.

[2:00:21] Susan Blackwell: Me too.

[2:00:22] Laura Camien: Yeah.

[2:00:23] Susan Blackwell: But anyway, they had they had that connection.

[2:00:28] Laura Camien: She mated with another octopus, then she went into her den.

[2:00:32] Susan Blackwell: And and foster still went down and filmed every day and visited, but he definitely couldn't get in close enough to see her the eggs or anything.

[2:00:42] Laura Camien: Um, but he knew as it was happening, once the eggs arrived and they birthed tiny little, they hatched and birthed uh 500,000 children.

[2:00:54] Susan Blackwell: Um then began the slow like passing away of uh our little buddy, and it was it's hard to watch, and you can see how much it meant to him.

[2:01:09] Laura Camien: This simple and pure connection between a man and an animal was really really touching.

[2:01:17] Susan Blackwell: I was I was inspired by how he took the time to let an idea come to him organically.

[2:01:25] Laura Camien: He wasn't pushing for any outcome, as we mentioned before.

[2:01:30] Susan Blackwell: He needed to heal, and he needed to give himself time to heal.

[2:01:34] Laura Camien: And whether he was conscious of it or not, he was actually going through the process of healing this burnout, um, as your spark illustrated.

[2:01:46] Susan Blackwell: And he ill he actually illustrated how physical activity, breathing, inter social interaction, uh, laughter and playfulness, affection, crying, um, and getting into nature, like getting out of himself a little bit helped him to and making something and then making something.

[2:02:13] Laura Camien: He made a fucking documentary, and making and then creative expression.

[2:02:19] Susan Blackwell: Um yeah, helped him to like reconnect with his humanity, his natural wells of energy, and his creativity, and he took that passion and purpose that he started to feel getting up each day and poured it into a creative project.

[2:02:40] Laura Camien: And it's just it's beautiful.

[2:02:43] Susan Blackwell: He said this project really helped him start to care about all animals and think about how lovely each of their lives are and how precious all of our lives are.

[2:02:55] Laura Camien: He said that his octopus teacher taught me to feel that I am part of this place, not a visitor, and that is a huge difference.

[2:03:07] Susan Blackwell: And that's my spark.

[2:03:10] Laura Camien: That is a profoundly excellent spark.

[2:03:15] Susan Blackwell: Thank you.

[2:03:16] Laura Camien: And I cannot believe what a beautiful set of complimentary sparks we accidentally made.

[2:03:22] Susan Blackwell: I know, I know.

[2:03:24] Laura Camien: Um, I have so many, I have so many thoughts.

[2:03:28] Susan Blackwell: I was so watching that documentary and hearing you talk about it, kind of brings it back freshly.

[2:03:34] Laura Camien: That feeling of like I could have walked into any gin joint in this like he what you know, just by making that commitment to himself that he needed to recover from that burnout.

[2:03:47] Susan Blackwell: Yeah, that he was going to go into the ocean every day, that he was just gonna go to the ocean every day, he was going to swim and breathe and be surrounded by nature, and then eventually started taking the camera, eventually, you know, make the connection with this little buddy of one of, you know, it's just amazing.

[2:04:11] Laura Camien: It's amazing.

[2:04:12] Susan Blackwell: It rem, I have so many thoughts in my head right now.

[2:04:15] Laura Camien: I'm going to try to not explode into a shower of sparks.

[2:04:21] Susan Blackwell: One thought is he showed up for a practice.

[2:04:26] Laura Camien: Yes.

[2:04:26] Susan Blackwell: And it reminds me of how when we talk about like just by showing up day after day after day after day after day, things will come to you.

[2:04:36] Susan Blackwell: You will kick open creative doors just by keeping your pen moving, just by returning to the ocean, just by, you know, like going on a walk in. If you keep showing up, you will things will come to you that would not have come to you if you just were sort of like, I'm gonna wait for the muse to visit. I'm just gonna, you know, that's right. It it's that I think is relevant. And then in no particular order. Um, I have on my wall, and I've had this for God, it's coming up on 20 years. Uh, so I studied and Hunter Bell studied with this writing teacher who we love, who we talk about, who we owe such a debt of gratitude towards, named Linda Barry. And she's an amazing artist. But at the beginning of each day of this writing seminar that she teaches, she would have one of those big flip charts outside of the room, and she would like, welcome to day one, welcome to day two, welcome to day three.

And there was one day when we walked up to the classroom and the flip chart had an uh uh, she's an artist, and she had in probably in Sharpie or something, drawn this sort of cartoonish cephalopod. And each each of the cephalopod's tentacles were holding something different. So, like one had a pen, one had a brush, one had a heart, one had a cup of steaming coffee. Like, and I've had it. I asked her if I could have permission to have it. I had her sign it. And I just cherish it because it's a reminder of my creativity.

[2:06:16] Laura Camien: Yeah.

[2:06:17] Susan Blackwell: Sort of the um how our creativity has these different arms and different sort of it extends from us in different ways and shows up in different ways. So my cephalopod might have uh, you know, it might have uh a pen to write with, and it might have a brush to paint with, and it might have uh, you know, uh a ball of yarn to knit with, and it might have a camera in one hand, or a hand, a tentacle full of flowers to arrange, or a copy of uh manuscript that contains my story. And when Cam's and I were in class over the summer, we were taking a business class, and they asked us to draw an illustration of what we wanted to do. And I was like, there's so many things we want to do under the umbrella of the spark file.

And so the illustration, the the my purpose is to free, to free creativity, self-expression, connection, empathy, authenticity, all of those things, laughter, but my drawn representation of it was a cephalopod with a big smile on his face, listening to the spark file, and in each tentacle, there's a different piece of creativity of uh of an instrument of creativity. And somebody in the class said, that's the sparkfile crest. You that should be your logo, that should be on t shirts. And I was like, well, we have a long go, but I do like it for a t-shirt idea. So that's a spark.

[2:07:46] Laura Camien: Yeah.

[2:07:47] Susan Blackwell: The Sparkfile Crest, which is Lil Buddy the cephalopod, also represented in the Sparkfile podcast pals, little buddy. Sutton Foster, please crochet us that octopus. That'll be the prototype. That's right. Um, I know that Sutton Foster has crocheted uh like a an octopus toilet tissue cover. It covers one role, yes. So um I I'm gonna put in my order for that. There's something about this. I'm so sparked by this, Kimmy Ann. There's something about if you haven't watched My Octopus Teacher, please watch it. And costume designers, please note what an octopus can do in terms of its shapes. Oh my God. And its adaptive camouflage with its skin. There's a scientific name for it. I forget what it's called.

It's one of the most remarkable things I have ever seen on planet Earth. Its ability to turn its like to inject different color cells essentially to the surface so that it in a breath changes its color. As it glides over, you know, uh different colors, it changes to be those colors. It's phenomenal. If it hasn't been done already, it should be done as a costume.

[2:09:02] Laura Camien: Oh, this spark goes out to Hunter Bell and the other world creators.

[2:09:07] Susan Blackwell: Like a costume that can do something like that. Oh my god. And then I also just want to say a great big Hosanna to documentarians and documentaries that go places and take us along with us in the bathosphere. We've talked about this before, whether it's Tiger King, or whether it's my octopus teacher, or whether it's hands on a hard body, or there's so many great document documentaries that go places in time and space and history that and take us with them. And I'm so fucking sparked by it that I can't even tell you. So this these are just some of the sparks. This is love it. Sparks beginning sparks. I sparks on sparks on sparks on sparks. The costuming, I think he even refers to her at one point, like the lady in the red dress, because there is a moment where she is um, if you can imagine gliding like across the sea floor, um, and she has eight arms, but she somehow pushes like six of them sort of towards the back, so they're flowing in the wind.

And two of them look like they are walking. And so he says, and then she turns into the lady in the red dress, um, because she's sort of this this burnt red kind of color, and and uh her body is expanded and flowing out towards the back. It's extraordinary.

[2:10:45] Susan Blackwell: It's beautiful, it's extraordinary. It looks the first time I saw an octopus transform in a moment like that with the camouflage, uh, all the tactics. I thought it was CGI. I didn't think that it was it could possibly be real. Yeah, and then watching this documentary, I was like, that is real, that is not CGI. And that he that he captured it. He must have captured things that have not been captured before. I really believe that because of the amount of time and he mentions it like he doesn't brag about that outright, but he does mention at one point in the documentary that there were certain things he saw that he tried to look up in these scientific journals and to try to study them and understand them more, and that he couldn't find anything about them.

Um he even like he even said he, you know, he went diving one, like at least one, I don't know how many, but he went diving at night because it is generally understood that despite all the fun they're having during the day, octopus are nighttime, is the right time.

[2:11:51] Laura Camien: Yeah, exactly.

[2:11:52] Susan Blackwell: So he went down at night, at night and got footage. Yeah.

[2:11:56] Laura Camien: So amazing.

[2:11:58] Susan Blackwell: He did extraordinary work. You said this, you you articulated this in such a beautiful way with your entire spark, but just to sum it all up, and and and in the context, also placing it right against my spark. It's that documentary is a beautiful depiction of somebody who, as you use your words, is in crisis and processes all the way through and out of the tunnel of burnout. That's he's a changed person.

[2:12:31] Laura Camien: He's a changed person.

[2:12:32] Susan Blackwell: We love watching, we love this. Is a this is a theory that I have come up with recently, and it's as a result of uh teaching weirdly, acting for the camera. We love watching and reading people going through change. We love observing people going through change. So when I teach it in on-camera acting, I say, even if the scene is literally your lines, you have two lines in the scene. We need to see something change. Humans want to see other humans change. And that documentary, My Octopus teacher, is a beautiful depiction of watching someone very patiently, very slowly with connection with another being.

[2:13:25] Laura Camien: Yes.

[2:13:26] Susan Blackwell: With breathing, with uh physical activity, with you know, with joy, with all of the things that you mentioned, we see them change. I'm gonna add to that, Suze, that you know, culturally, I think we all love a transformation. And there's a million examples of of uh, you know, us seeing someone who has been transformed. But and I celebrate that and I love that, but I would say we are also particularly interested in watching and and experiencing people going through change, as you said, which is all the messy steps that lead to the transformation. It's not just like, how did it look in the end? It is uh walking side by side with each other and others as we go through all of those steps that get you to the transformation.

Um I like artwork that that shows us that and life experiences, and it brings me back to, you know, we're putting together this group for the Sparkfile Select Group Creativity Coaching uh program. And uh when we talk to artists who are like, ugh, I'm in the messy middle of uh I'm you know, I'm just a crispy burnt out, ugh.

[2:14:47] Susan Blackwell: Yeah, can you get ugh?

[2:14:48] Laura Camien: How can you take it? How can you stand it? And I'm like, because we like walking next to people as they go through chase. This is part of it. This is part of the process.

[2:14:56] Susan Blackwell: Yeah.

[2:14:58] Laura Camien: And um, we a lot of times people don't get to see, they don't see other people in the midst of their 10,000 hours becoming an expert and becoming uh transformed. And so we're like, we want to see that. We'll sit right beside you as you you know, type and cry. That's part of it all. This again, I was texting with Celia Keenan-Bolger before we got on. Hi, Celia. And I don't know how to say this without sounding like a total fucking douchebag. But this sort of is it is it feels like it is it points to our life's work. Oh it feels like it points to like we're that this episode of sort of like little you and I, Laura, like this like yes, kind walking with people as they as they work through these changes as creatives and that gets me excited, Suze. I I just love the way you're it also sounds it sounds grandiose and a little bit douchey, but uh, but I just I think it's also true. It's the purpose of like feeling our purpose and what we're here to do.

[2:16:14] Susan Blackwell: Yeah, I could go on and on, but I think we better wrap this up.

[2:16:17] Laura Camien: We better wrap it.

[2:16:18] Susan Blackwell: This is a mere this might be the longest episode of the podcast ever. So should we wrap it?

[2:16:21] Laura Camien: I think so.

[2:16:23] Susan Blackwell: I think so. Yep.

[2:16:25] Susan Blackwell: Okay, let's do it. Well, then that's it. This episode of the Sparks File was made on Muncy Lenape and Seminole Land. And as always, we hope that it put another bunch of sparks in your file. Listen, if there's a spark you'd like to go down our late, listen, gang. If there's a spark you'd like us to explore, or if you've taken a spark and fanned it into a creative flame and you'd like to share that, email us at thesparkfile at gmail.com or submit it through our website, thesparkfile.com. We will even happily take your feedback, but you know the price of admission. First, you gotta share a creative risk that you have taken recently. You can follow us on social media at the Sparkfile and be sure to subscribe, rate, and five star review this podcast.

If you are so moved, it really helps other people to find us. If you like this podcast, we do hope you'll share it with people that you love. If you didn't like it, we encourage you to fully complete the stress response cycle by running far, far away from us.

[2:17:24] Laura Camien: Good one, Seuss.

[2:17:27] Susan Blackwell: If something tickles your fancy and gets your creative juices flowing, we are writing you a forever permission slip to make that thing that has been knocking at your door. It's your turn to take a spark and fan it into a flame. You gotta take it and make it bye, friends.

[2:17:48] ♪ Musical number ♪

[2:18:14] Susan Blackwell: Let's open up the spark files.