This transcript was automatically generated and might contain errors.

[0:10] Susan Blackwell: When I bump into something that inspires me, I jump in in my spark file.

[0:18] Laura Camien: Spark file will be something that I wanna make or how I wanna be.

[0:23] Susan Blackwell: I pump it in my spark file.

[0:27] Laura Camien: Spark.

[0:28] Susan Blackwell: I jump into my spark slide.

[0:32] Laura Camien: Let's open up the spark file.

[0:37] Laura Camien: Welcome to the Sparks File where we believe that everyone is creative, but smart creative people don't go it alone.

[0:42] Susan Blackwell: I'm Susan Blackwell.

[0:43] Laura Camien: And I'm Laura Camien.

[0:44] Susan Blackwell: If you're an OG listener, welcome back, Sparkler.

[0:47] Laura Camien: If you're joining us for the first time, ah, we're so happy that you're here and you're so welcome.

[0:52] Susan Blackwell: Whether you have put your creativity on pause during this time or you've clung to it like a lifeline, either way, welcome.

[0:58] Laura Camien: But you may be asking yourself, what exactly is a spark file?

[1:02] Susan Blackwell: Where do I get one?

[1:03] Laura Camien: What do I file in it?

[1:04] Susan Blackwell: These are such good questions, and we actually do have answers.

[1:07] Laura Camien: A spark file is a place where you consistently collect all your inspirations and fascinations.

[1:12] Susan Blackwell: Here's the deal. We are makers who make all kinds of things.

[1:15] Laura Camien: If you're like us and you're making stuff all the time, or want to be making stuff all the time, you know that the wellspring of inspiration can run a little dry, especially now.

[1:25] Susan Blackwell: But don't despair. We are here for you, and we are on the lookout for fresh ideas, images, and inspiration that spark our creativity and pique our curiosity.

[1:33] Laura Camien: Things that inspire us to rise up, pop our asses and make things like this podcast.

[1:39] Susan Blackwell: Or an exploration and study of families, industries, and monopolies.

[1:45] Laura Camien: Or an approach to creative feedback that feels like a puzzle piece clicking into place.

[1:51] Susan Blackwell: Oh, every episode, we're gonna reach into the spark file and exchange some sparks.

[1:56] Laura Camien: And from time to time, we're gonna talk to some folks who spark us too.

[1:59] Susan Blackwell: And if you're not careful, you just might move past old fears and into new possibilities.

[2:05] Laura Camien: So without further ado, let's open up the spark file.

[2:11] Susan Blackwell: Hi, Kimmy!

[2:13] Laura Camien: Hi!

[2:13] Susan Blackwell: Hi!

[2:14] Laura Camien: I'm a little giddy.

[2:15] Susan Blackwell: I've got to tell you, I'm a little giddy, Kimmy, because I'm excited.

[2:19] Laura Camien: We are we're have a little bit of a time deadline on the recording of this episode.

[2:24] Susan Blackwell: Usually we just have open-ended, luxurious time.

[2:28] Laura Camien: But today we're popping and locking because somebody's got to get in their car and go get that COVID vaccine.

[2:35] Susan Blackwell: Yes, guys, I'm getting shot number one today.

[2:39] Laura Camien: I'm so excited. I'm getting shot number one.

[2:42] Susan Blackwell: I'm so happy for you because the sooner both of us are fully vaccinated, the sooner it means we can hug it.

[2:49] Laura Camien: I'm gonna, yeah, I'm gonna march my little self right down to you.

[2:54] Susan Blackwell: And I'm gonna hug you, and then I'm just gonna run back to you.

[2:58] Laura Camien: Oh, I'm not letting go.

[2:59] Susan Blackwell: So that's gonna put a little snag in that plan.

[3:02] Laura Camien: I will not let Laura.

[3:10] Susan Blackwell: I'm so excited.

[3:12] Laura Camien: My Aunt Mitty.

[3:13] Susan Blackwell: I had an aunt who was Aunt Mitty.

[3:16] Laura Camien: Her name was Mildred, and she was really a great aunt.

[3:19] Susan Blackwell: So she was like, you know, 90s some, and she had a mole, she had several moles, but a mole on her chin that had hairs growing out of it.

[3:29] Laura Camien: And I always thought of like, you know, on the hair on your chinny chin chin.

[3:34] Susan Blackwell: Yeah.

[3:35] Laura Camien: Because I was that age.

[3:36] Susan Blackwell: And so I just was like, it's about her.

[3:39] Laura Camien: That's the hair on her chin. She's famous.

[3:41] Susan Blackwell: They write poetry about her.

[3:46] Laura Camien: They do.

[3:47] Susan Blackwell: Seuss.

[3:48] Laura Camien: Hi.

[3:48] Susan Blackwell: I'm excited.

[3:49] Laura Camien: I'm having a weird sensation, though, that I haven't done something that I'm supposed to.

[3:52] Susan Blackwell: Like, have I not pushed a button?

[3:54] Laura Camien: We're recording, right?

[3:56] Susan Blackwell: It's happening.

[3:57] Laura Camien: I see the little sound files going.

[4:01] Susan Blackwell: Um maybe that's the sensation of it's been just like a second since we've recorded.

[4:07] Laura Camien: And so it's on to hopping.

[4:10] Susan Blackwell: And uh shall we?

[4:13] Laura Camien: Yes, I've got two stories today.

[4:17] Susan Blackwell: It's story time today for me.

[4:19] Laura Camien: I was saying to you, you know, there's all kinds of things that spark us and engage us.

[4:24] Susan Blackwell: And and a lot of times we like to go deep.

[4:27] Laura Camien: And today's not one of those days for me, but I I do find like I find some fun in this.

[4:34] Susan Blackwell: Um, have you heard about this cinnamon toast crunch situation, Suze?

[4:39] Laura Camien: I I it's very complicated.

[4:41] Susan Blackwell: It's it's not without, it's not without its controversy.

[4:44] Laura Camien: I have.

[4:45] Susan Blackwell: I it yeah, go ahead.

[4:47] Laura Camien: Do you want to recap it for a couple minutes?

[4:48] Susan Blackwell: Well, sure, sure, sure. Um, so long story short, sometime a few weeks ago, a man sits down to his favorite breakfast, cinnamon toast crunch, and he has a bowl full of it, enjoying it, loves it. And then he thinks, I'm up for a little bit more today. I'm gonna pour a second bowl. He pours the second bowl, and there he is shaking the cereal box over his bowl.

[5:10] Laura Camien: And along with the tasty little cinnamon toast crunchies comes a shrimp tail.

[5:15] Susan Blackwell: Make that two shrimp tails.

[5:17] Laura Camien: Two, yeah. They too are covered in the cinnamon, just doing their best to blend in with the crunchies.

[5:23] Susan Blackwell: But they are clearly shrimp tails.

[5:26] Laura Camien: No denying it. So this guy, his name is Jensen Carp.

[5:30] Susan Blackwell: He said in a New York Times article about it.

[5:32] Laura Camien: Yes, the tails of the shrimp tails have made it to the New York Times.

[5:37] Susan Blackwell: Oh my God.

[5:38] Laura Camien: Jensen Carp said he's medicated for OCD, and this really grossed him out.

[5:43] Susan Blackwell: So this was like a total nightmare for him.

[5:46] Laura Camien: Yeah.

[5:46] Susan Blackwell: He took a picture of it. He went online to a form submission on the General Mills site and he shared it, hoping he might warn them of some contamination.

[5:55] Laura Camien: And then he posted the picture on Twitter and tagged Cinnamon Toast Crunch.

[5:59] Susan Blackwell: They got back to him via Twitter and issued this statement. After further investigation with our team that closely examined the image, it appears to be an accumulation of the cinnamon sugar that sometimes can occur when ingredients aren't thoroughly blended.

[6:15] Laura Camien: The statement read, We assure you there is no possibility of cross-contamination with shrimp.

[6:20] Susan Blackwell: Well, that just made the situation worse because Mr. Carp tweeted back, okay. Well, with further investigation with my own eyes, these are cinnamon-coated shrimp tails, you weirdos.

[6:33] Laura Camien: I wasn't all that mad until now you tried to gaslight me.

[6:38] Susan Blackwell: So after his tweet started making the rounds, he got a call from a friend who suggested that he dig deeper into the box of cereal.

[6:45] Laura Camien: He literally said, I had like I it never even crossed my mind to go back into the bag.

[6:50] Susan Blackwell: Never crossed my mind. But again, he he did and he looked inside, he felt worse.

[6:56] Laura Camien: In addition to the shrimp tails, he found some quote shrimp skin looking things, plus a small string, which there have been some wonderings if it was dental floss, something that looks like a little nut, like a pistachio nut, also covered in the cinnamon, and some small black bits baked into the cereal.

[7:17] Susan Blackwell: And these small black bits, he worried could be rat poop.

[7:22] Laura Camien: At the time, because people are speculating that like some rodents may have gotten into, you know, into the mix somewhere at the factory.

[7:30] Susan Blackwell: Okay. I'm gonna just it's interrupt you for just a moment to say that. So, and you, if I'm jumping your spark, please stop.

[7:37] Laura Camien: I'll tell you.

[7:38] Susan Blackwell: So I I stopped, I I told I was on this, I was watching this happen, go down on Twitter, and I stepped off once people started to come forward and say, This guy is an abusive person.

[7:51] Laura Camien: And I was like, oh, if this is a bit that I don't, I didn't know if it was a bit that a comedian was doing or if this was genuine, but I was just like, oh, I don't want to give this person any more air time because he sounds abusive.

[8:05] Susan Blackwell: But so I stepped off, and I am I did not know these details that you're now sharing with me because I had stepped off.

[8:13] Laura Camien: Yeah, and I am totally grossed out right now.

[8:16] Susan Blackwell: It's just I'm just having a gross role.

[8:19] Laura Camien: It's totally gross.

[8:20] Susan Blackwell: It's totally gross.

[8:21] Laura Camien: And to know that you already ate a bowl of it. Like that is what's so gross.

[8:25] Susan Blackwell: But yeah, um, he does, he is a comedian, his wife is an actress.

[8:30] Laura Camien: So there were those people who jumped on board to you know, accuse him of being funny or get attention.

[8:34] Susan Blackwell: I hadn't read the abusive part. I certainly don't want to shine a light, you know, any grandeur on him, but my spark is really more about cereal.

[8:42] Laura Camien: So we'll come back to that.

[8:44] Susan Blackwell: But he says, I'm a comedy writer, but like there's no joke here to take down my favorite cereal brand.

[8:51] Laura Camien: I don't even know why that's a funny joke.

[8:53] Susan Blackwell: I love cinnamon toast Crunch. It's the only cereal I eat.

[8:57] Laura Camien: I own the Kyrie Irving cinnamon toast Crunch Nikes.

[9:02] Susan Blackwell: Yes, there are. I looked it up. There are Nike shoes designed by Kyrie Irving called Cinnamon Toast Crunch.

[9:09] Laura Camien: No joke.

[9:10] Susan Blackwell: Wow.

[9:11] Laura Camien: So he says, no, you know, he didn't, he it's not a joke, according to him.

[9:17] Susan Blackwell: But um at the moment, he's trying to get all of it tested, like in a lab tested, so that he cannot be told by General Mills that it's nothing.

[9:27] Laura Camien: He wants to know for sure.

[9:28] Susan Blackwell: Again, he got the most upset by the gaslighting, which I understand like how infuriating for the company to be like, that's not shrimp tail.

[9:36] Laura Camien: Um, but his wife remembered that they bought a two-pack of cinnamon toast crunchies from Costco.

[9:44] Susan Blackwell: So they were two. So they checked out the other bag of cereal and they noticed what looked like clear tape along the bottom of the plastic bag.

[9:53] Laura Camien: So that one may have been tampered with.

[9:53] Susan Blackwell: Tampered with.

[9:57] Laura Camien: Yeah.

[9:58] Susan Blackwell: Yeah. But he continued to have this back and forth with General Mills, who then suggested that he send the materials to them.

[10:04] Laura Camien: But he was like, no, I'm nervous to send the contents to General Mills and never see them again, right?

[10:09] Susan Blackwell: He said, I'm definitely holding on to one of them.

[10:12] Laura Camien: I'm not considering legal action for now.

[10:15] Susan Blackwell: Obviously, if I ate rat poop, we're gonna have to readdress that.

[10:19] Laura Camien: But so he's having that tested.

[10:21] Susan Blackwell: But he says he's frustrated with how General Mills handled the situation.

[10:25] Laura Camien: He said, All you have to do is say, This is such a bummer. We're gonna look into it. We're gonna recall the ones from Costco.

[10:32] Susan Blackwell: Like it's such an easy PR thing to do.

[10:35] Laura Camien: But instead, they basically wanted to gaslight me.

[10:39] Susan Blackwell: So he insists that he is merely concerned for consumer safety.

[10:44] Laura Camien: He said, I just want to fix it, you know, for other people.

[10:47] Susan Blackwell: He said, citing the possibility that shrimp could contaminate the cereal of people with shellfish allergies or who keep kosher.

[10:54] Laura Camien: He says, I'm not even trying to like say be better or whatever. I'm literally just saying go investigate it.

[11:03] Susan Blackwell: So ongoing investigation ensues.

[11:06] Laura Camien: The story. We'll have to do some updates along, you know, along the way to see how the story develops.

[11:12] Susan Blackwell: But yeah, but this got me thinking, just the whole all the cereal. It got me thinking about a few stories that I've been sparked by thanks to the history channels, The Food That Made America.

[11:23] Laura Camien: Have you ever watched that?

[11:25] Susan Blackwell: I have not.

[11:26] Laura Camien: Suze.

[11:27] Susan Blackwell: So as they describe it, these food barons were just like Rockefeller, Ford, Carnegie, and other tycoons that built America from the ground up.

[11:38] Laura Camien: But these guys applied those skills in the frankly rather cutthroat food industry.

[11:45] Susan Blackwell: So caveat here on my story.

[12:03] Laura Camien: But the truth of the matter is that the invention and distribution of prepackaged foods literally built the US economy.

[12:12] Susan Blackwell: It allowed people to live in cities in the first place.

[12:14] Laura Camien: It kept soldiers and civilians from starving during World War One and World War II, and eventually made it possible for women to enter the workforce.

[12:23] Susan Blackwell: So, dear listeners, I ask you to set aside any prejudgments or current thinking about food conglomerates and go with me for a moment to their origins.

[12:34] Laura Camien: Just to unpack a tiny bit of that.

[12:36] Susan Blackwell: So when like thousands of people arrived on the shores of the US, ready to live and work in this new glorious country.

[12:44] Laura Camien: Many of them settled where they arrived.

[12:47] Susan Blackwell: In New York City, for example. There's no ability to farm your own land or have your own cattle.

[12:53] Laura Camien: You bought or traded food at the market.

[12:57] Susan Blackwell: Nothing lasted more than a day.

[12:58] Laura Camien: So you'd go to the market every single day for that day's food.

[13:03] Susan Blackwell: Sometimes even the food at the market was rotten.

[13:06] Laura Camien: People were in need of sustenance that would not go bad immediately.

[13:10] Susan Blackwell: That reality was one of the first signs that food that could exist on your shelf for more than a day was essential to the growing population and to the economy.

[13:21] Laura Camien: There are many more reasons, but I'll get to those.

[13:25] Susan Blackwell: So let me begin my story with Dr. John Harvey Kellogg and the Battle Creek Sanitarium.

[13:32] Laura Camien: Do you know anything about this, Zeus?

[13:34] Susan Blackwell: I it's been a minute, but it's it's a little, if I remember correctly, it's I guess by it in its when it was current day, I'm sure it seems state of the art, and now it just seems batshit crazy.

[13:48] Laura Camien: Yes.

[13:49] Susan Blackwell: Yes, yes.

[13:51] Laura Camien: And it is its own spark.

[13:53] Susan Blackwell: It will set yes, it is its own spark, but I will give you a small taste of that spark.

[13:59] Laura Camien: So try to stay with me because these folks have woven a tale of ambition, espionage, betrayal, and death along their path to everlasting grocery store dominance.

[14:12] Susan Blackwell: In the mid to late 1800s, Dr. John Harvey Kellogg was one of the country's first doctors focused on overall health, well-being, prevention, all of that.

[14:22] Laura Camien: As you'll hear today, he had some good ideas.

[14:25] Susan Blackwell: He also had some terrible ideas, and I'll mention those later.

[14:29] Susan Blackwell: But at the time, he was cutting edge. He studied medicine, he published papers in medical journals, and he lectured at well-respected universities, and was considered legit. And, you know, he gained the trust of many, many followers. He considered himself a health reformer. His focus was to improve the mind, body, and soul through a program he called Biologic Living. And he taught people the tenets of his program at the Battle Creek Sanitarium in Battle Creek, Michigan. The Battle Creek Sanitarium was part European spa, part hydrotherapy institution, part hospital, and part high-class hotel. Here, everything from nutrition to exercise to mental well-being was addressed. The sanitarium attracted incredibly influential people, including Amelia Earhart, Sojourner Truth, Thomas Edison, Henry Ford, Presidents Warren G. Harding and William Howard Taft, Mary Todd Lincoln, as well as a man named C.W. Post.

But back to him in a moment. Keeping in mind that Dr. John Harvey Kellogg was ahead of his time in terms of some of his work, the breathing exercises, the vegetarian diets, the exercise, the gut health research he did, he was also completely off the mark in other ways. Let me just name a few. He was for a daily enema, daily enema to clean out your bowels. He was for sexual abstinence and zero masturbation. Wow. His food was deliberately bland because he believed it should be bland in order to minimize excitement, sexual arousal, and masturbation. Oh, he sounds like a party. So it's so interesting. He connected the food to getting excited and wanting to get down.

[16:23] Laura Camien: Yeah. According to Wikipedia, as a leader of the anti-masturbation movement, this is awful. This is awful. I also should do, I should say a trigger warning about a few things in my, um, I should say that now. I should have said that earlier, but trigger warning. As a leader of the anti-masturbation movement, Kellogg promoted extreme measures to prevent masturbation. He circumcised himself at age 37. His methods for rehabilitation of masturbators included measures up to the point of mutilation without anesthetic on both sexes. Uh-uh. No, no, hands off. Oh my God. John Harvey Kellogg, hands off. In addition, John Harvey Kellogg was outspoken on his beliefs in race and segregation. He was, in fact, in favor of segregation and believed that immigrants and non-whites would damage the gene pool.

Though he himself raised several black foster children, which is interesting. How did you do that? Did you segregate your children? Whoa. I don't know. There's a lot of questions here. And suffice to say, I didn't want to give it all up at the front because you would know that Dr. John Harvey Kellogg is our villain. So I didn't necessarily want it. You know, I wanted to sort of figure that out, but listen, we're limited on time here. He's not a great guy. We've got vaccines to get not a great guy, despite a few, you know, a few good ideas.

[17:57] Susan Blackwell: Now, Dr. John Harvey Kellogg had a brother, Will Kellogg. John was the medical expert, but Will really ran the place. He had sales experience, a marketing mind, and he was very strategic in his thinking. The two of them had an incredibly contentious relationship. And now that we know what we know about John, I guess it's kind of easy to imagine not getting along with him. But I digress. John was the older brother and was apparently rather condescending to his younger brother. He could be abusive and certainly did not encourage Will in any way. Now, one of the ways that the sanatorium helped people who were staying there was through nutrition. They developed and produced various foods on property.

Things like peanut butter is said to have originated there and granola and eventually cornflake cereal. One of Will's great ideas. They didn't invent peanut butter though. They may have manufactured it there, but they didn't invent it. They, there actually, I read about it. There's like four different people in the world that kind of take credit for the invention of peanut butter. Got it. And they're so spark for another day. Peanut butter. Oh no. So one of Will's great ideas was to sell the food products that their patients ate while visiting the sanitarium, which makes sense. You know, once you get home, of course, you want to continue your program of eating well. Right. So he continually pestered his brother John to let him take the cereal and sell it to the general public. But John always said no. Always. And this was like a real point of contention between them.

[19:39] Laura Camien: Huh. So remember how I said a man named C.W. Post stayed at the sanitarium? C.W. Well, while there, he also thought, damn, this granola breakfast I'm eating should be sold everywhere. I could make a freaking fortune on this. So one night he sneaks down to the kitchen and he steals the recipe. He later took his product, which he called grape nuts to market. And he sells these grape nuts for their health values and claims that grape nuts can cure all kinds of ailments. And he makes millions of dollars. Oh my God. Millions of dollars. So Will is furious, obviously. I can I just say, and we talked about this when you did your spark about those, like those men of history. Yeah, like, you know, Titans.

The Titans. I bet all of these guys were such dicks. Like just dicks. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yeah. We'll talk more about their dickishness later. But they, yeah, you had to have this ruthlessness that was like, Yes, fuck everybody. Because CW Post became like a big brand. That and I'm like, oh, oh yeah. You know, there might be like this folk, I don't know what their logo was, but like this folksy sort of like a picture of, I'm thinking of the WB Mason uh water supply guy who looks like Matthew Broadwick with a handlebar mustache and like old timey hair parted down the middle. And that looks just like sort of like you know uh it but they're all dicks, yeah.

[21:19] Susan Blackwell: And I just think it's so this is all history channel, by the way. They're amazing because the way they told those stories and they're making more of them now, which I am so glad they changed the name. Um, I noticed that Leonardo DiCaprio became a producer. I'm not sure at what point, but they changed the name from the men who made America to the Titans who made America. So I'm hoping they'll include some other stories in there. Um these men were yeah, they were ruthless. And these monopolies that they created did not, you know, it wasn't just the railroad, it wasn't just steel. So it was cereal, cereal baby. So grape nuts are so weird anyway. Grape nuts are so weird, but now we know they came from John Harvey Kellogg, not CW Post.

Yeah, so Will was furious, furious about grape nuts getting out there, and they weren't the ones selling it. And he continued to push and push and push his brother, right? But no, John would say no. Still, he would say no. But eventually, John hit a rough patch financially at the sanatorium, and he considered closing up shop. Things got pretty bad. And instead, Will came to him and said, My God, will you let me buy the rights to the cornflakes that we make? Let me sell them to the world. I'll do it on my own. Just let me pay you for the rights so I can take it and do it. And finally, not excitedly and not super willingly, John agreed. He was not psyched about it, but he was kind of boxed into a corner. He needed the money and had no other choice. So he was resentful, but he said yes.

[23:10] Laura Camien: Now, this is where the story gets interesting. Will goes about building his business. One of the things he needs to do is set up for mass production of these cornflakes. Believe it or not, cornflakes, not something to be taken for granted. So use they're not something that anyone had ever made before. And they were actually made by mistake. There just a mix-up happened. They were they were creating these little batches of this dough, and they kept running it through a roller to try to flatten it out, and it just turned into mush. But one time they made a mistake, like something interrupted their process. And they were like, well, that batch is gone. And they leave it, they come back, and when it had dried, it had made these little flakes.

And they were like, you know, Eureka. So what you need, though, to make a lot of these little flakes is an enormous, like huge roller that would crush and flatten and cut the wheat and the ingredients. And so when it dried, those little flakes would happen. So Will works with a manufacturer to design, he literally helps to design these enormous roller machines and gets them made. And remember, he was a shrewd marketer. So he puts the name Kellogg's on every box. And he pays for ads all over the country, billboards, a million-dollar advertising campaign based on the name Kellogg, which is his name for sure. So he has every right to do it. But he also knows he is playing on the fact that people all over the country know the name thanks to the work of his brother, the famous Dr. Kellogg.

The cereal takes off. It's huge. Will doesn't sell it based on its medicinal values. He sells it as food. Like this is a legit meal. And he makes millions. Kellogg's cornflakes are a huge hit. In fact, they're such a hit that a thousand like new cereal companies take off and try to compete. It's estimated, it I just exaggerated. It's estimated that 42 cereal companies were launched in the breakfast boom of the early 20th century. The breakfast.

[25:28] Susan Blackwell: Really? Yes. Yes. And Battle Creek, Michigan was the epicenter of the cereal world. Huh. But I will, of those 42 companies that took off to compete with Kellogg's cornflakes, I will speak of two very real competitors to Kellogg's. First, Will's own brother John. Apparently, the money problems at the sanatorium have continued, and John decides to get himself into the cereal business. Maybe to spite his brother, maybe to save his business, maybe both. We'll never know. But he starts producing his own cereal and he puts Kellogg's on every box, trying to take advantage of the work his brother Will has done. So just in just to recap for you, John does some work as a medical professor, professional.

Will takes advantage of John's work in his work and capitalizes it. Then John capitalizes on Will's work that capitalizes on John's work. So we're all caught up. So he starts producing his own cereal. Um, it all says Kellogg's. Customers are confused, and it doesn't matter to them. They buy either one as long as it says Kellogg's, they don't know the difference. So Will is about to lose his mind. He decides it's time to resolve this age-old feud once and for all, and he takes his brother to court. An ugly, ugly legal battle ensues. Dr. John Harvey Kellogg claims that Will used his success as a medical doctor to build his business. He shows receipts for his medical degree, his medical papers, claiming that he's the expert and he should have the rights to market the Kellogg name.

Will shows up in court with the actual receipts for billboards around the country, for ads in all the major magazines, the ladies' home journal, for instance. They were ballsy in their advertising too. They even ran a campaign with ads that were anonymous that told newspaper readers to wink at your grocer and see what you get. And anyone who winked at their grocer got a free sample of Kellogg's cornflakes. This promotion led to an increase in sales 15 times over. Just wink at your grocer and see what you get.

[28:01] Laura Camien: With the grocery stores, yep. Amazing. Oh my God. That's an amazing viral campaign, of course. Such a thing existed. Exactly. I think Will's marketing mind is a spark in and of itself. So in court, Will's argument is for all the promotion he has paid to establish the Kellogg name. He should have rights to market the product under the Kellogg name. He's paid for it. He's made it a household name. It should be his. The Battle of Battle Creek. The Battle of Battle Creek. I don't know. Will Kellogg, the younger brother, wins the legal battle. Claiming that everyone knew the name of Kellogg because of the investment in advertising that he had made. The court rules that his brother John must stop using the Kellogg name, must pay all legal fees, and must give his brother all the profits he made from selling his cereal.

[29:09] Laura Camien: This is a brutal family battle.

[29:12] Susan Blackwell: It sounds like they lost everybody lost, is who lost.

[29:16] Laura Camien: No, Will got it all.

[29:18] Susan Blackwell: But their family was just blown to pieces.

[29:20] Laura Camien: Yeah, but I don't think they had a great relationship to begin with.

[29:26] Susan Blackwell: But yes.

[29:26] Laura Camien: This doesn't sound like it.

[29:28] Susan Blackwell: It doesn't sound like John was easy.

[29:31] Laura Camien: Oh my God.

[29:32] Susan Blackwell: So now that's settled. Will has handled that, but now he must turn his attention to the other viable competitor, CW Post.

[29:44] Laura Camien: The guy who stole the granola recipe from them, and the guy who is now making a cornflake cereal as well, known as Post Toasties.

[29:55] Susan Blackwell: Post Toasties, right?

[29:57] Laura Camien: So you've heard of that, right? Post Toasties.

[30:00] Susan Blackwell: So this guy, this guy, Suze. This is what, like you were saying earlier, this all of these guys really, there were no limits.

[30:09] Laura Camien: It was such an era of greed, of opportunity, with nothing but potential to make money.

[30:16] Susan Blackwell: And, you know, just like we mentioned, not unlike the battle for the railroads between Rockefeller and Carnegie, or the battle for electricity between Thomas Edison, Westinghouse, and Tesla.

[30:31] Laura Camien: This guy, CW Post realizes that in order to make cornflakes, he is going to need some of those big roller machines that I told you about.

[30:44] Susan Blackwell: The ones that Will Kellogg helped design.

[30:48] Laura Camien: So go with me here. What does he do?

[30:52] Susan Blackwell: He buys the machines from the one and only company that makes them.

[30:57] Laura Camien: And he pays them for an exclusive contract. They are not allowed to sell the machines to anyone else ever.

[31:07] Susan Blackwell: So are you with me there? The machines that Will designed for the creation of cornflakes.

[31:13] Laura Camien: CW Post comes in, has cock blocked, has cocked everybody else's use of that machine.

[31:20] Susan Blackwell: That is correct. That is correct.

[31:22] Laura Camien: And so now he has a monopoly on the cornflakes.

[31:33] Susan Blackwell: He already has his cornflake machines, right? He's all set.

[31:35] Laura Camien: But no, in 1907, a fire burns down his entire factory, all of it to the ground.

[31:46] Susan Blackwell: And inside are the big steel rollers.

[31:50] Laura Camien: When Will attempts to get his business back up and running, he calls the company that makes the machines, the company that he worked with to design the machines.

[31:59] Susan Blackwell: And they say, So sorry, we can't sell any roller machines to any new clients.

[32:04] Laura Camien: CW Post owns the exclusive rights to them.

[32:08] Susan Blackwell: Well, wow. Poor Will.

[32:10] Laura Camien: He's furious. It feels like through this whole story, Will is nothing but furious.

[32:14] Susan Blackwell: So now he's beyond furious.

[32:18] Laura Camien: Whatever, whatever beyond furious is, he is it.

[32:21] Susan Blackwell: And he fucking like he helps create the damn things.

[32:24] Laura Camien: So he stews on this a bit, and then he calls that company back and he goes, Wait, did you say you can't sell to new clients?

[32:33] Susan Blackwell: And they say, That's right.

[32:35] Laura Camien: He says, But I'm not a new client. I'm an old client. Your contract doesn't say anything about repairing old machines, does it?

[32:44] Susan Blackwell: And in fact, it did not. So he goes into the ashes of his old building and literally pulls out what is left of those roller machines.

[32:53] Laura Camien: Yeah.

[32:53] Susan Blackwell: And he gets them operating again.

[32:56] Laura Camien: Suze, the show. This is all like again, thanks to the History Channel. The this show, like it points, it points this out.

[33:06] Susan Blackwell: But this was really the age of the robber baron.

[33:09] Laura Camien: And I've heard the phrase robber baron, but I'd never really thought about it too much.

[33:14] Susan Blackwell: But yeah, it is the Rockefellers, the Vanderbilts. It applies to wealthy industrialists, typically in the 19th century, who made their fortunes by monopolizing their industry.

[33:26] Laura Camien: Railroads, oil, steel, banking. The food industry has their own robber barons.

[33:33] Susan Blackwell: Like it was by any means necessary that these guys made this happen.

[33:40] Laura Camien: So in the end, another trigger warning here. In the end, things did not fare well for CW Post.

[33:51] Susan Blackwell: CW Post, who originally went to the sanitarium because he was unwell.

[33:57] Laura Camien: Yeah. Continued to suffer gastric problems, nervous breakdowns.

[34:02] Susan Blackwell: And at the age of 59, he took his own life.

[34:05] Laura Camien: Oh.

[34:06] Susan Blackwell: Like to add to the pain of like this illness that he'd been carrying for decades. He also felt so much shame that none of his own products, the ones he touted as healthy remedies for all ailments, none of them could save him.

[34:21] Laura Camien: So he had this extra burden on himself, self-created, essentially, because of all the claims that he made about his products.

[34:31] Susan Blackwell: Now, CW may have been ruthless in business, but he does an extraordinary thing when he dies.

[34:38] Laura Camien: He leaves most of his wealth and complete control of his company in the hands of his 27-year-old daughter.

[34:50] Susan Blackwell: Oh.

[34:52] Laura Camien: Suze, I want you to remember this is 1914. Women do not even have the right to vote.

[35:00] Susan Blackwell: Not allowed to go vote in national elections, but here she is.

[35:06] Laura Camien: She's going to come into the boardroom and tell these guys what to do.

[35:11] Susan Blackwell: And she does. Her name is Marjorie Merriweather Post.

[35:16] Laura Camien: And she takes the company to extraordinary new heights.

[35:20] Susan Blackwell: She's a visionary leader long before food conglomerates are a thing.

[35:24] Laura Camien: She directs her company to start buying up other companies.

[35:27] Susan Blackwell: They acquire Maxwell House Coffee, Log Cabin Syrup, Jello, Hellman's Mayonnaise.

[35:34] Laura Camien: Holy moly.

[35:35] Susan Blackwell: She also buys Bird's Eye frozen foods outright.

[35:39] Laura Camien: And she is single-handedly responsible for refrigeration becoming a thing in our grocery stores and in our households, which is a story and a spark in and of itself.

[35:49] Susan Blackwell: In fact, I really want someone to give us a great story of Marjorie Merriweather Post.

[35:56] Laura Camien: She was, in her time, the richest woman in the world. She ran an enormous corporation at the time when like less than 20% of college graduates were women.

[36:06] Susan Blackwell: She was a huge advocate for women. She married four times. She built glorious homes around the world.

[36:13] Laura Camien: Suze, she built Mar-a-Lago. That was her vision.

[36:16] Susan Blackwell: Someone, please give us a great mini series about her.

[36:23] Laura Camien: I want turn of the century. I want robber barons. I want the cutthroat competition, and I want a woman to walk away the victor.

[36:32] Susan Blackwell: That's not too much to ask.

[36:34] Laura Camien: That's a great fucking mini series right there.

[36:37] Susan Blackwell: I'm casting it over here.

[36:38] Laura Camien: Okay.

[36:44] Susan Blackwell: Now back to the battle between Will and John Kellogg.

[36:49] Laura Camien: Will succeeds in writing his brother out of history, essentially.

[36:54] Susan Blackwell: Wow.

[36:55] Laura Camien: The company Kellogg's, you know, if you look, they've done a good job also of separating Will from John.

[37:03] Susan Blackwell: And I think obviously, based on what we know about John's beliefs, good idea to separate from him and let him fade into obscurity.

[37:16] Laura Camien: Will is the sole creator of Kellogg's company, which is worth over 22 billion dollars today.

[37:25] Susan Blackwell: Oh MG.

[37:27] Laura Camien: Those two brothers continued to battle it out their whole lives.

[37:31] Susan Blackwell: John eventually lost the sanitarium and faded into the background.

[37:34] Laura Camien: However, Suze, I found this little story, which just adds to the family tragedy.

[37:42] Susan Blackwell: Apparently, when he was in his 90s, John Harvey Kellogg prepared a letter to reach out to his younger brother to try to repair the relationship.

[37:53] Laura Camien: Wow.

[37:54] Susan Blackwell: I want to give him some.

[37:56] Laura Camien: I know, because I want to be like, what if in that letter, like he admitted that he was wrong about certain ideas?

[38:02] Susan Blackwell: In my best self wants to believe that John Harvey Kellogg had, you know, came to some conclusions near the end of his life that he was wrong about some things.

[38:12] Laura Camien: But he prepared this letter to go out to his younger brother, but his secretary read it.

[38:21] Susan Blackwell: And his secretary determined that John had demeaned himself in the writing of the letter and refused to send it.

[38:43] Laura Camien: Oh my God. Do you know? Did the secretary notify her boss that she wasn't sending it?

[38:52] Susan Blackwell: Or was she just like, I'm just gonna tuck this into a drawer?

[38:54] Laura Camien: I think that needs investigation.

[38:57] Susan Blackwell: And I think also, you know, in the fictionalized version, like yeah, which what's best to be what's best for the dramatization of it.

[39:05] Laura Camien: Because if she went in and was like, I refuse to send this, he'd be like, send it. Send it.

[39:09] Susan Blackwell: He'd be somebody else.

[39:10] Laura Camien: He put a stamp on it or something.

[39:13] Susan Blackwell: Exactly. Exactly.

[39:14] Laura Camien: And I think it was more secretive. And so he laid there. I'm imagining he laid there waiting to hear back from his brother Will and never did.

[39:26] Susan Blackwell: So what do we make of it, friends?

[39:28] Laura Camien: Well, come on.

[39:30] Susan Blackwell: There are tales for sure. I seriously want that mini-series. No joke.

[39:33] Laura Camien: Many, it is like the crown, but for cereal.

[39:38] Susan Blackwell: Yes. The crown book for cereal.

[39:40] Laura Camien: You get think of it. This story does have everything.

[39:44] Susan Blackwell: Industrial espionage.

[39:46] Laura Camien: Um like people, people die drama in their pursuit of it.

[39:51] Susan Blackwell: Family drama, um, controversy.

[39:54] Laura Camien: There have been books written.

[39:57] Susan Blackwell: Oh, I'm sorry to interrupt you.

[39:58] Laura Camien: No, no, no. Let me just tell me, let me tell you this, and then we'll be podcasting.

[40:01] Susan Blackwell: But there have been books written. Um, The Kellogg's, The Battling Brothers of Battle Creek, and the book and movie called The Road to Wellville, which was 25 years or so.

[40:12] Laura Camien: You might remember that.

[40:13] Susan Blackwell: That stars Anthony Hopkins.

[40:15] Laura Camien: But I never saw it.

[40:16] Susan Blackwell: So it's not a great appearance.

[40:19] Laura Camien: I read this whole article about how the people of Battle Creek were so excited for this movie to come out because it they thought it was going to be about their glory and the you know, the glory days of the the cereal boom and their part in it, but it wasn't.

[40:35] Susan Blackwell: It's kind of a far off crazy, it's more about the crazy character, kind of based on John Harvey.

[40:43] Laura Camien: Um so it's not it's not really but it's it's a work of art of based, you know, inspired by this.

[40:50] Susan Blackwell: Luke and Owen Wilson did an episode of Drunk History about it.

[40:54] Laura Camien: Um I had that in my casting list.

[40:57] Susan Blackwell: I have them on my casting list.

[40:58] Laura Camien: Yes, Luke and Owen Wilson amazing.

[41:01] Susan Blackwell: I personally, I think the robber barons of the food industry need a musical, and it might not be these cereal wars, but uh I we could do a whole other spark on Hershey and Mars, the candy, the candy barons, because they have a fascinating story also on the History Channel, The Food That Made America.

[41:01] Laura Camien: Hershey and Mars.

[41:23] Susan Blackwell: Amazing, amazing.

[41:25] Laura Camien: And then of course, Marjorie Post is a spark in and of herself.

[41:28] Susan Blackwell: I mean, there's just so much there.

[41:30] Laura Camien: This is just tip of the iceberg.

[41:32] Susan Blackwell: Do you want to talk casting?

[41:35] Laura Camien: Let's talk casting.

[41:36] Susan Blackwell: Uh here's here's I I'm looking, I just quickly Googled what they look like, and I know their appearances changed over the course of their lives.

[41:45] Laura Camien: But I was like, Bo and Jeff Bridges.

[41:47] Susan Blackwell: Oh Joe Bridges for the Kellogg's interest.

[41:51] Laura Camien: I'm giving you, I'd like to, I'd like to get asks out to Ed Harris and um maybe Will Patton for CW Post.

[42:01] Susan Blackwell: Wow.

[42:02] Laura Camien: Let's get those asks out and then we'll get to work.

[42:05] Susan Blackwell: Let's roll up our sleeves and write the damn thing.

[42:07] Laura Camien: Let's do it.

[42:08] Susan Blackwell: I just did a quick Google of Marjorie Merriweather Post.

[42:14] Laura Camien: Uh-huh.

[42:14] Susan Blackwell: And what I didn't realize, there's I feel like there's a lot of um potential people for her.

[42:23] Laura Camien: Yeah.

[42:23] Susan Blackwell: But what I didn't realize is that her daughter, socialite heiress, and motion picture actress, Dina Merrill.

[42:30] Laura Camien: Yes.

[42:30] Susan Blackwell: Was a uh she was a great philanthropist, and she donated a bunch to the Eugenonial Theater Center where I do a lot of work.

[42:39] Laura Camien: She didn't.

[42:39] Susan Blackwell: And they have a whole, they have a whole facility, the Dina Merrill.

[42:44] Laura Camien: And I can't tell you how many hours, how many hours and how many shows have we developed? How many classes have I taught?

[42:49] Susan Blackwell: Dina Merrill.

[42:52] Laura Camien: How many songs have I sung in the Dina Merrill?

[42:54] Susan Blackwell: Sue, that's amazing.

[42:55] Laura Camien: Cause I was like, should I try to fit that into the spark? And thought I gotta cut it off because there's so many branches of the space.

[42:58] Susan Blackwell: There's so many branches of the spark.

[43:04] Laura Camien: Dina Merrill also in her 60s formed RKO Pictures.

[43:08] Susan Blackwell: She and her husband.

[43:11] Laura Camien: Yes.

[43:12] Susan Blackwell: She grew up. I read this thing that was like, she grew up, well, one Mar-a-Lago that has, you know, like a hundred and some bedrooms.

[43:18] Laura Camien: That's blowing my mind.

[43:20] Susan Blackwell: She grew up in like um a penthouse in New York City that has like 86 rooms.

[43:25] Laura Camien: You know, like you just can't conceive of what her life was like.

[43:29] Susan Blackwell: It was very, very, very different. You know what this is?

[43:32] Laura Camien: Yeah, this is a sparktopus.

[43:34] Susan Blackwell: What is this?

[43:34] Laura Camien: It's a sparktopus. It's a sparktopus that shoots out into so many different directions.

[43:41] Susan Blackwell: Amazing.

[43:42] Laura Camien: It's our first truly labeled Sparktopus.

[43:45] Susan Blackwell: Now I feel like we could go back and look at all of our sparks and be like, that's a sparktopus.

[43:49] Laura Camien: That's a sparktopus. I love it.

[43:52] Susan Blackwell: This is crazy.

[43:53] Laura Camien: So this is crazy. Listen, I know we've got vaccines to get to, but I will just say this. My mind goes to, oops. My mind goes to food industry reform too. Like thinking about those shrimp tails in the cinnamon toast crunch. I think about the fact that growing up, I was always taught that anything on the grocery shelves was safe. They wouldn't sell it if it wasn't. Like there was this era of trust in big corporations and trust in the FDA. And I do wonder if we've come a bit full circle, and we're now living in an age when the conglomerates have way too much power. What is one small individual to do if they find shrimp tails in their cereal or any contamination in their food? I don't have an answer to that, but I am going to keep my eyes on that story of carp and the test, the lab test results. There's something fishy going on there.

[44:49] Susan Blackwell: Oh my God. You built a whole spark around that pun.

[44:52] Laura Camien: I didn't shame on you.

[44:54] Susan Blackwell: That came at the last minute.

[44:55] Laura Camien: Shame on you.

[44:57] Susan Blackwell: You're like, I wrote this at midnight.

[44:59] Laura Camien: Cut me a fucking break.

[45:01] Susan Blackwell: Cut me a break. Listen, sometimes I've been my can I just say my mom's like dorky jokes have been popping into my mind a lot lately. And I've just been going with it. I'm like, okay, I'm gonna say it. And then I just do it like, thanks, mom. I miss you. And that's it. Honor my mother with these cheesy jokes.

[45:21] Laura Camien: Cheesy jokes. I'm like, that's my spark. I also wrote Serial Wars. I feel like serial wars is one name of this miniseries, but I love when I was like, even before you said the name of the book, I was like, the Battle of Battle Creek.

[45:35] Susan Blackwell: Yes.

[45:35] Laura Camien: But the battling brothers about the Battling Brothers specifically. But there's so many battles of Battle Creek because of this um cereal boom.

[45:45] Susan Blackwell: Amazing. Or y'all could just name whatever you're gonna make, Sparktopus and give us a bus.

[45:52] Laura Camien: Sparktopus.

[45:55] Susan Blackwell: When the mini series called Sparktopus airs, Susan, I don't even know what we're gonna do to celebrate, but it's gonna be pretty extraordinary.

[46:03] Laura Camien: It's on tonight. We launched tonight.

[46:07] Susan Blackwell: It looks like a sparktopus. And it's sort of like an octopus, but it's covered in sparklers and it just shoots flames and smoke rises out of it like a volcano.

[46:17] Laura Camien: Listen, let's take a quick break, and then I have got a big uh spark to drop in your lap.

[46:25] Susan Blackwell: Okay.

[46:25] Laura Camien: Yes.

[46:26] Susan Blackwell: See you in a moment.

[46:26] Laura Camien: Bye.

[46:27] Susan Blackwell: Spark.

[46:29] Laura Camien: Oh my spark to push.

[46:35] Susan Blackwell: That was a good spark to pus.

[46:37] Laura Camien: Oh my goodness. I have to write that down.

[46:39] Susan Blackwell: It's so fascinating. It's like put it in your spark vial. It's when people just prioritize that, you know, that ambition and that gain and all of that over everything. Relationships and it's it, I think what an interesting human makeup.

[47:01] Laura Camien: Yeah.

[47:01] Susan Blackwell: Uh-huh. Cut to us 20 years from now, or we're just like, I own 51% of this Sparktopus.

[47:09] Laura Camien: God is my witness. You can claw it out of my dead cold hands.

[47:14] Susan Blackwell: Uh I just think different industries, you know, there are certain industries that are still right that are in that moment. It's just that, you know, turn of the century was so chock full of it for in a minute. It's a different spark for a different day, but I there's one of the reasons I love there's a book that uh maybe I'll do it as a spark one day because I really do get a lot out of it called Get Rich Lucky Bitch.

[47:35] Laura Camien: Yes by Denise Stuffield Thomas.

[47:38] Susan Blackwell: And she talks about, you know, if you have a narrative in your mind that wealthy people, that affluent people can only be like the Cruella de Villes and uh the CW posts of the world. It's it really that it doesn't have to be that way.

[47:54] Laura Camien: Yeah, yeah, it doesn't have to be that way.

[47:55] Susan Blackwell: And I I love that. Think of Dina Merrill.

[47:58] Laura Camien: Think of Dina Merrill, who then would she give it to you.

[48:00] Susan Blackwell: I feel like Dina Merrill, I'm sure she also contained multitudes, and who knows? Maybe she was like the warmest, kindest. Um uh, you know, she had a sense of abundance, but you know, maybe she was also trouble. Who knows? We don't know, but we just know she did some good things with her money.

[48:16] Laura Camien: We'll find out, we'll find out when we watch that uh miniseries that some listeners are gonna write.

[48:21] Susan Blackwell: That's right.

[48:23] Laura Camien: Um, but Camps, yes, the clock is ticking. We need to get you vaccinated, and I've got a big spark for you.

[48:30] Susan Blackwell: So shout we begin.

[48:31] Laura Camien: Give it to me.

[48:32] Susan Blackwell: I'm so excited. It's so funny because we were talking before we started recording about how both of us need to get better about checking our Sparks File email account and how things can sort of fall through the cracks.

[48:47] Laura Camien: Yeah.

[48:47] Susan Blackwell: So I don't even know if you saw this. That's a that's isn't that a wonderful thing for us to admit. But um, I don't even know if you saw this email. Our apologies. There was an email that came in this week, and I don't even know if you saw it, and I'm kind of hoping that you didn't, but we'll find out.

[49:04] Laura Camien: So a listener named David Young wrote to us, and David sent along a great price of admission. His this is David's price of admission. In addition to his YouTube channel, where he's been posting new content, he's been writing music. He's written three art songs for his wife so she can sing a complete set of his work at her master's recital.

[49:24] Susan Blackwell: I did not see this list.

[49:26] Laura Camien: This is amazing.

[49:27] Susan Blackwell: It's a gift for her, it's a gift from her back to him. It's just the best keeps going.

[49:33] Laura Camien: So you haven't seen this email.

[49:34] Susan Blackwell: I have not seen this email.

[49:35] Laura Camien: This is fantastic. This is one of the benefits of us needing to pull our heads out of our asses.

[49:41] Susan Blackwell: So uh David wrote in this fantastic spark. It's just a world-class spark. It's so useful, it's so actionable. And here is the kick in the pants. When he emailed me, I was literally in the middle of writing a spark that directly explored the spark that David sent.

[50:00] Laura Camien: Oh my god.

[50:03] Susan Blackwell: Are you standing behind me now? It was so freaky, Cammy.

[50:07] Laura Camien: Wow.

[50:07] Susan Blackwell: What can I say? Great, great mind.

[50:09] Laura Camien: So thank you, David Young.

[50:10] Susan Blackwell: Thank you, David Young. Isn't that nuts? I've never had such a thing happen. So with that, I bring you this spark, which bears the David Young spooky seal of synchronistic approval. And this spark is on the feedback process.

[50:25] Laura Camien: Ooh.

[50:26] Susan Blackwell: Oh, I'm intrigued.

[50:28] Laura Camien: Yes, you know I love this topic.

[50:29] Susan Blackwell: I know you do, and we've talked a lot about this in the spark is a long time in the making. So uh so get ready.

[50:37] Laura Camien: Enjoy.

[50:37] Susan Blackwell: I'm I'm so ready. As we have discussed, I think probably on and off mic, feedback can be a totally mixed bag. On one hand, I think it can be essential to the development of creative work. And I'm also sure that there are people who can and do and have advanced their work without it. I I think I listen, I've done rear zero research on this. But I but I think to myself, did Pablo Picasso need or accept creative feedback on his work?

[51:08] Laura Camien: Yeah.

[51:09] Susan Blackwell: Yeah. I I my instincts just again, not research based, but my instincts tell me that it seems like he might have been the kind of person that would have told people to fuck right off and then kept his own counsel and painted whatever the fuck you wanted to paint. But for most of us, feedback can be essential to the advancement of our creative work.

[51:30] Laura Camien: And you and I have talked about so many aspects of this before. We've discussed who holds the measuring stick when it comes to your creativity. Do you hold it? Do you other do you empower other people to assess you? And we've also talked about Laura, you and I have very different tolerances for feedback.

[51:49] Susan Blackwell: And both of those approaches can have some awesome parts and some nawsome parts. There's upsides and downsides to both. Now you've said this before, but it seems like you were encouraged from a very young age to take it all, to take all the feedback. Is that correct?

[52:05] Laura Camien: Well, I think as a child of a narcissist, you take everything on as your own, it's your fault. So, yes, if any, if a teacher gave some feedback, uh everything was met with like, well, Laura, what did you do to contribute to that? So it must have been something I did. It must have been me.

[52:27] Susan Blackwell: And so it took me a long time to get to where I'm like, oh, this one isn't mine. This one is yours. This one is the person who's speaking.

[52:35] Laura Camien: Yeah.

[52:36] Susan Blackwell: That makes sense. Have you also talked about? Am I making this up? Totally possible, that be having uh your dad being a coach, you were also taught like to be coached.

[52:47] Laura Camien: I was 100% taught to be coached. I'm so freaking coachable. It's ridiculous. Yes, taught to be coached. But I would also say my experience at Blue Man Group, where we were a collaborative creative organization, probably the most impactful because it was like no nothing was going to get created with a singular voice. The belief was that more voices, better, better outcome.

[53:14] Susan Blackwell: Well, one brain, like two brains are better than one.

[53:18] Laura Camien: And so I was trained just 100 anything I wrote was going to get was going to have input from 10 people. And just it just builds your tolerance, I think.

[53:28] Susan Blackwell: Yeah, that makes sense.

[53:30] Laura Camien: I will say, all through school, acting school, undergrad, graduate school, I took so much feedback and we were really conditioned to take it.

[53:39] Susan Blackwell: Yeah.

[53:40] Laura Camien: There's a certain ethos in in certain creative educational cultures where they the it's sort of I don't know if they do this anymore. So I don't know if this is past tense, but the idea was we break you down and build you back up, that sort of thing.

[53:40] Susan Blackwell: Yeah.

[53:40] Laura Camien: I don't know if that really flies anymore.

[53:58] Susan Blackwell: I was gonna add, uh, just real quick to that, and I don't want to jump your spark, so tell me if I am. But I also like in college, same thing, like lots and lots of notes.

[54:09] Laura Camien: Yeah, but I was like, this trained me to be like, I can take it when there's um 20 negative notes. Those nights where like my director would say, Great, that was amazing, no notes. And I'm like, no, but you have to have notes.

[54:26] Susan Blackwell: But there's there must be something wrong.

[54:28] Laura Camien: No, tell me what else I can do. And I finally had an instructor say, Is it possible, Laura? Is it possible that this comes easy to you?

[54:38] Susan Blackwell: And there doesn't need to be a greater list of things.

[54:42] Laura Camien: It reminds me of it reminds me of the big leap. It reminds me of your set point for comfort about I'm comfortable because of the way I grew up. I'm comfortable with lots of this kind of feedback.

[54:54] Susan Blackwell: Yeah.

[54:54] Laura Camien: Yeah.

[54:55] Susan Blackwell: Yep. Criticism.

[54:56] Laura Camien: And then I know I'm like, okay, good. We're both paying attention here because you have lots of notes for me.

[55:01] Susan Blackwell: Oh yeah.

[55:02] Laura Camien: Because that was my mom.

[55:03] Susan Blackwell: Yeah.

[55:03] Laura Camien: Here's a lot, here's a list of things to fix.

[55:05] Susan Blackwell: So yeah.

[55:08] Laura Camien: Okay.

[55:09] Susan Blackwell: Yep.

[55:10] Laura Camien: In my experience as a professional actor, I also took a lot of feedback, feedback about the work, of course, but also feedback about things like appearance. I remember having a casting director tell me, I could not believe it. I felt like I was like, do you know what a cliche you're being right now? They said, if I kept my hair the color that it was, I would never work in this town.

[55:36] Susan Blackwell: And I was like, really?

[55:39] Laura Camien: And I also remember being told by casting that this famous director that I had auditioned for hated, hated my outfit. And I remember them saying it two times, she hated your outfit. No, I mean like she hated your outfit. And that's why I um wasn't considered for that role.

[56:03] Susan Blackwell: Because of the outfit.

[56:05] Laura Camien: Because of the outfit.

[56:07] Susan Blackwell: And wow.

[56:07] Laura Camien: I just remember this thing started happening where I would just perseverate on those what I perceived as failures. And over time, I really started shutting down to feedback and bracing, like bracing for impact because I couldn't bear the thought of that sort of repetitive, negative, perseverative thinking and the pain associated with those thoughts that I linked to feedback.

[56:36] Susan Blackwell: And then a client of ours, hi Jess, shared this term with us that I had never heard before, which is rejection, sensitivity, dysphoria.

[56:49] Laura Camien: Uh-huh.

[56:49] Susan Blackwell: And I was like, what are those words? What are those words in that order?

[56:53] Laura Camien: Same more.

[56:53] Susan Blackwell: So I I uh Jess shared some stuff with me, and then I did some digging myself. And in an article on good therapy.org, a writer named Crystal Ray Paul writes no one looks forward to rejection, but many people can weather the emotional blow and recover from it without too much difficulty.

[57:12] Laura Camien: Yeah.

[57:14] Susan Blackwell: Rejection affects people in different ways, though. Not everyone gets over it quickly or easily, Susan puts her hand up. In fact, some people experience what's known as rejection sensitive dysphoria, RSD for short, a severe emotional reaction that makes it particularly challenging to deal with rejection.

[57:32] Laura Camien: And I think this also includes critique and criticism.

[57:35] Susan Blackwell: Also referred to as rejection sensitivity. This isn't considered an official diagnosis. So I want to make that clear. This is not considered an official diagnosis, but research increasingly suggests it involves much more than being sensitive.

[57:50] Laura Camien: Yeah.

[57:50] Susan Blackwell: Crystal goes on. The most telling marker of rejection sensitive dysphoria is an extreme response to real or perceived rejection.

[57:58] Susan Blackwell: Most people may experience sadness, disappointment, or frustration after experiencing rejection or critique.

[58:04] Laura Camien: But with RSD, rejection or critique can be overwhelming enough to lead to outbursts of rage or panic, feelings of despair and hopelessness, beliefs that one has failed or disappointed their loved ones, and feelings of shame and humiliation.

[58:22] Susan Blackwell: She goes on a little longer.

[58:24] Laura Camien: Extreme rejection sensitivity can make it tough to move forward after an experience of rejection.

[58:29] Susan Blackwell: Some people might continue thinking about the rejection throughout the day or into the next, experiencing circling thoughts or even feelings of physical discomfort.

[58:39] Laura Camien: And I read that, and I was like, I'm familiar with that perseverance, but it can last not just days or weeks, but months or years.

[58:50] Susan Blackwell: I have had this experience where I can, it can either be like internal, like I'll make a mistake on stage or on camera, or external, somebody will say something to me, and I will keep returning to it over and over and over again.

[59:06] Laura Camien: This has gotten better with lots of therapy and with meditation.

[59:10] Susan Blackwell: Like there are things that I do now that do make it better.

[59:13] Laura Camien: But it is, I read that and I was just like, uh yeah.

[59:19] Susan Blackwell: Yeah.

[59:20] Laura Camien: Yeah.

[59:20] Susan Blackwell: Yep, yeah.

[59:21] Laura Camien: Yeah.

[59:21] Susan Blackwell: Yeah.

[59:22] Laura Camien: And I think if I could just say to clarify a point from earlier, like even though I've had that training in different ways, it has not stopped.

[59:31] Susan Blackwell: Like things that matter to me.

[59:34] Laura Camien: If the more it matters to me, and then I get a critique, it can almost shut me down.

[59:43] Susan Blackwell: But yeah.

[59:44] Laura Camien: Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[59:45] Susan Blackwell: Yeah.

[59:46] Laura Camien: Yeah.

[59:46] Susan Blackwell: And it's these, it's for these reasons that both the mental, sort of a mental anguish and sometimes the accompanying physical discomfort, like Crystal describes, for these reasons, these are the reasons why I don't like reading comments online.

[59:46] Laura Camien: I don't like reading reviews, even good reviews.

[1:00:04] Susan Blackwell: I don't like hearing other people's assessments.

[1:00:07] Laura Camien: And again, it can I'm getting better at like taking compliments, but I don't love reading positive reviews because I sometimes this thing will happen where it will just repeat in my head.

[1:00:19] Susan Blackwell: And I'm like, I don't want anybody else holding the measuring stick.

[1:00:22] Laura Camien: Right.

[1:00:23] Susan Blackwell: Right.

[1:00:23] Laura Camien: This is the reason, Laura, when we issue surveys after, for instance, a workshop or something like that.

[1:00:30] Susan Blackwell: I'm like, can you read them first?

[1:00:33] Laura Camien: And then you can share things with me.

[1:00:35] Susan Blackwell: Yeah.

[1:00:35] Laura Camien: You can, you can, I can hear it from Laura, but I don't necessarily want to read it directly out of a survey or read it in iTunes.

[1:00:44] Susan Blackwell: And it's also one of the reasons we have a price of admission on this podcast to sort of ensure that everyone who has something that they want to say is in the arena, as you and Roosevelt would say.

[1:00:57] Laura Camien: Like that's right.

[1:00:58] Susan Blackwell: That that yeah, you could have tried something yourself.

[1:01:01] Laura Camien: So you know you kind of know what kind of vulnerability it takes to do to create.

[1:01:08] Susan Blackwell: But I here is the rub.

[1:01:10] Laura Camien: I know that in order to get better and in order to advance creative work, feedback is a valuable part of the process.

[1:01:19] Susan Blackwell: Yeah.

[1:01:19] Laura Camien: And I also just want to acknowledge, I can't imagine that it's always super fun to have a creative partner with whom you feel like you need to filter so thoughtfully when it comes to feedback.

[1:01:31] Susan Blackwell: But I think you know that I'm actively working on it.

[1:01:36] Laura Camien: And um, and you and I work on it together.

[1:01:39] Susan Blackwell: And there are times when I'll like there are times when I'll get a piece of feedback or what I perceive as feedback.

[1:01:46] Laura Camien: Uh-huh.

[1:01:47] Susan Blackwell: Actually, have to be feedback, and I'll just be like a little cactus, a little porcupine going and like getting better at just having uh more flow with it and a slightly de-excited nervous system around it.

[1:02:02] Laura Camien: Not and not to like, you know, have a therapy session on our podcast, but this is what it looks like, folks.

[1:02:08] Susan Blackwell: It's happening.

[1:02:09] Laura Camien: It's happening.

[1:02:10] Susan Blackwell: I also think that like when you say the thing of perceived feedback, if you have worked in your past at any point with people who habitually do not say what they mean, you have trained your ear.

[1:02:26] Laura Camien: I'm not saying you, in general, we can train our ear for what we think we hear.

[1:02:32] Susan Blackwell: Is there something in between?

[1:02:34] Laura Camien: Was there something unstated that I was supposed to gather from that?

[1:02:39] Susan Blackwell: Because there are people who, you know, who have a difficult time communicating directly and saying what they mean.

[1:02:46] Laura Camien: And so we can move through the world uh constantly listening for what isn't being said and perceive those things.

[1:02:55] Susan Blackwell: But I think your ear gets trained for it by you know, by years of uh certain types of relationships.

[1:03:04] Laura Camien: Totally.

[1:03:05] Susan Blackwell: And I think both of us are getting better on both sides of that equation, where we are getting where we are trying like we're just trusting each other more.

[1:03:15] Laura Camien: Nobody's going anywhere.

[1:03:17] Susan Blackwell: If we have a conflict, it's not gonna burn the whole thing down.

[1:03:21] Laura Camien: So we can we can say what we mean more readily.

[1:03:25] Susan Blackwell: Yeah, and getting better at also being like, oh, I trust that they're going to speak directly.

[1:03:32] Laura Camien: So I don't have to be so hyper-vigilant about seeking like what isn't being said.

[1:03:37] Susan Blackwell: That's right.

[1:03:38] Laura Camien: And we I feel like you and I check in with each other very directly about that dynamic.

[1:03:43] Susan Blackwell: And we can ask if we think we heard something, we can say, can you say more about that?

[1:03:48] Laura Camien: I want to make sure I don't misinterpret that.

[1:03:51] Susan Blackwell: Let's double click and expand.

[1:03:52] Laura Camien: Yeah, let's what was that?

[1:03:53] Susan Blackwell: Yeah, yeah.

[1:03:54] Laura Camien: Yeah, yeah.

[1:03:55] Susan Blackwell: All great.

[1:03:56] Laura Camien: But we still we're getting better at it.

[1:03:58] Susan Blackwell: And like I'll just speak for myself.

[1:04:00] Laura Camien: I still have miles to go before I sleep.

[1:04:03] Susan Blackwell: But I'm working on it.

[1:04:04] Laura Camien: Um, so I have observed that under certain circumstances, I actually can readily and easily take feedback.

[1:04:13] Susan Blackwell: So I have been asking myself actively what are those circumstances?

[1:04:18] Laura Camien: Is it when I have more rest?

[1:04:20] Susan Blackwell: Is it when I have a greater surplus of what Emily Fletcher would call adaptation energy?

[1:04:25] Laura Camien: Take a drink, Emily Fletcher's name.

[1:04:27] Susan Blackwell: Um is it when it's teed up a certain way?

[1:04:30] Laura Camien: Does it depend on the source of the feedback?

[1:04:33] Susan Blackwell: So I have for a very long time wanted to do a spark around approaches to feedback and to learn what options might be the most useful for me, for you, for all our little sparkles who are listening out there, so that we can ask for and provide feedback that feels to quote the great Laura Camien, like a puzzle piece clicking into place.

[1:04:56] Laura Camien: Wow.

[1:04:57] Susan Blackwell: Yeah, so that was my spark today.

[1:04:59] Laura Camien: And quoting Leslie Odom Jr., I think.

[1:05:02] Susan Blackwell: It might be a quote of a quote of a quote.

[1:05:04] Laura Camien: Two-time Academy Award nominated.

[1:05:06] Susan Blackwell: Leslie Odom Jr.

[1:05:08] Laura Camien: Anytime.

[1:05:09] Susan Blackwell: Friend of the podcast.

[1:05:10] Laura Camien: We're so proud of you, Leslie Odom Jr.

[1:05:13] Susan Blackwell: Um, so I have ordered these tools rough very roughly from smallest to largest.

[1:05:21] Laura Camien: Okay.

[1:05:21] Susan Blackwell: And so please enjoy the following options.

[1:05:25] Laura Camien: Yeah, yeah.

[1:05:26] Susan Blackwell: I feel like this is well, at least for me anyway, news you can use.

[1:05:32] Laura Camien: Yes.

[1:05:32] Susan Blackwell: Like I can't even tell you.

[1:05:34] Laura Camien: So something that we've learned from our great coach, Jennifer Rosenfeld.

[1:05:39] Susan Blackwell: Hi, Jennifer.

[1:05:40] Laura Camien: She's not just a coach, she's a client.

[1:05:43] Susan Blackwell: Um is about asking consent before offering feedback.

[1:05:48] Laura Camien: And so many people that I talk to for this Sparks, I talked to some great people for this Sparks.

[1:05:53] Susan Blackwell: But um, so many people that I spoke to talked about the importance of consent around feedback.

[1:05:59] Laura Camien: It's so simple, it's so elegant.

[1:06:01] Susan Blackwell: And I have observed that even with established clients, Jennifer will listen to what they're sharing or to the question that they're asking, and then she'll say, May I offer you some thoughts?

[1:06:13] Laura Camien: Now, these are people that have paid Jennifer money for Jennifer to offer her thoughts and ideate around their work.

[1:06:22] Susan Blackwell: But each time, each time she says something like, May I offer you my perspective or may I offer you my viewpoint?

[1:06:29] Laura Camien: And of course, uh we, her clients say yes because she's really insightful and she's very kind, and then she proceeds.

[1:06:36] Susan Blackwell: But in that momentary exchange of consent, she makes space for kind, honest feedback, which I've seen time and time again leads to big breakthroughs for people.

[1:06:46] Laura Camien: So that is the first tool in the feedback process toolkit.

[1:06:50] Susan Blackwell: Just a simple, may I offer you a thought.

[1:06:53] Laura Camien: Now, you and I are rocking a twist on that, Laura.

[1:06:56] Susan Blackwell: We have for a long time in our group coaching program and with our private clients, we say, May I offer you something and you can take it or leave it.

[1:07:03] Laura Camien: And I frequently add, or tell me to go fuck myself to keep it spicy.

[1:07:07] Susan Blackwell: So that's another approach.

[1:07:09] Laura Camien: May I offer you something, you can take it or leave it, and tell me to go fuck myself.

[1:07:13] Susan Blackwell: No, may I offer you something, take it or leave it, or tell me to go fuck myself.

[1:07:17] Laura Camien: Wait, so I can take it or but I could also leave it and tell you to fuck yourself.

[1:07:24] Susan Blackwell: That's right.

[1:07:25] Laura Camien: Okay, just joking.

[1:07:28] Susan Blackwell: Pick two out of three.

[1:07:29] Laura Camien: One of my options here.

[1:07:30] Susan Blackwell: There you go.

[1:07:33] Laura Camien: So um, so that's something that we do.

[1:07:36] Susan Blackwell: And I again, it's sort of a more playful way to build in that consent piece.

[1:07:42] Laura Camien: And we even in our group, we ask our group members to preface any offering that they're going to offer to another member of the group to say that.

[1:07:53] Susan Blackwell: It's, it's, you know, it's um people always say yes.

[1:07:58] Laura Camien: It's very rare that people say no, but I I in fact, I can't think of one example where people say no.

[1:08:03] Susan Blackwell: But um, yeah.

[1:08:04] Laura Camien: But it's good to know, you know, if people do do that and you get yourself into a dicey situation of feedback, it's you're completely empowered to say, you know, actually I'd like to pull this back.

[1:08:16] Susan Blackwell: I'm gonna take this, go work on it.

[1:08:19] Laura Camien: I'd I'd rather pause on the feedback right now.

[1:08:22] Susan Blackwell: Like you're entirely empowered to do that.

[1:08:24] Laura Camien: We're we're gonna get to that.

[1:08:25] Susan Blackwell: Oh, I'm excited.

[1:08:26] Laura Camien: We're gonna get to that.

[1:08:27] Susan Blackwell: Yeah.

[1:08:28] Laura Camien: So so moving forward, we received a great approach to feedback when we interviewed Bonnie Siegler on this very podcast to refresh your memories.

[1:08:37] Susan Blackwell: Bonnie is an amazing graphic designer who wrote a book called Dear Client, among other books.

[1:08:43] Laura Camien: This book called Dear Client.

[1:08:44] Susan Blackwell: This book will teach you how to get what you want from creative people.

[1:08:48] Laura Camien: Sincerely, Bonnie Siegler.

[1:08:50] Susan Blackwell: Which again, I say makes for one of the greatest book jackets of all time.

[1:08:55] Laura Camien: And if you recall, Bonnie had a deal with a bookseller in Texas.

[1:08:59] Susan Blackwell: The bookseller would anonymously send this book wrapped in brown paper to the recipient slash client of your choice, which I think is one of the most baller moves of all time.

[1:09:10] Laura Camien: So amazing.

[1:09:12] Susan Blackwell: So amazing.

[1:09:13] Laura Camien: She Bonnie is amazing.

[1:09:14] Susan Blackwell: She's so creative and so smart and so direct.

[1:09:19] Laura Camien: And Bonnie really knows how to what works for her in terms of feedback, enough that she wrote a goddamn book about it.

[1:09:26] Susan Blackwell: So she's freaking honest.

[1:09:29] Laura Camien: And people count on that.

[1:09:30] Susan Blackwell: She's direct.

[1:09:31] Laura Camien: She's just you know where you stand, you know how she feels about it, no bones about it.

[1:09:35] Susan Blackwell: It's amazing.

[1:09:36] Laura Camien: Amazing.

[1:09:37] Susan Blackwell: So when when the brilliant Bonnie Siegler was on the pod, she said, criticism is always taken more seriously than praise.

[1:09:44] Laura Camien: I'm gonna say that again.

[1:09:46] Susan Blackwell: Criticism is always taken more seriously than praise.

[1:09:50] Laura Camien: In a focus group, if someone criticizes something, the other people in the group might think, I must not be as smart as them because I like it.

[1:09:57] Susan Blackwell: And it's hard to go against the crowd, which is why Bonnie hates focus groups.

[1:10:02] Laura Camien: But she champions an approach simply structured as I notice, I wonder.

[1:10:08] Susan Blackwell: And according to Bonnie, this was developed to respond to children's artwork.

[1:10:12] Laura Camien: When you are offering someone feedback, you say, I notice without any criticism or judgment inferred.

[1:10:19] Susan Blackwell: For instance, I notice that it's very colorful, it's very poppy, or I noticed that you used a lot of yellow in this.

[1:10:25] Laura Camien: And then moving on to, I wonder what would happen if, which is not saying, I don't like it, make it yellow.

[1:10:33] Susan Blackwell: She gave I wonder examples like, I wonder if the scale was larger, or I wonder if it was in a different order, which changes the whole conversation.

[1:10:43] Laura Camien: Per Bonnie, it's inviting dialogue instead of giving commands, which I love.

[1:10:49] Susan Blackwell: Yes.

[1:10:49] Laura Camien: I love that.

[1:10:50] Susan Blackwell: Yes.

[1:10:51] Laura Camien: And another variation on that theme we learned in one of our business classes, Laura, which is I like, I notice, I'd like to see.

[1:10:59] Susan Blackwell: So this I love because it starts with the affirmation of I like.

[1:11:04] Laura Camien: And I actually I keep this, I'm showing it to you, Camps.

[1:11:07] Susan Blackwell: I keep this on a post-it note on my computer to remember it because I have to remind myself of its existence because it's so easy, especially when we're super familiar with our collaborators or discussion partners, to forget these steps.

[1:11:23] Laura Camien: And to illustrate that, um, I I'm gonna tell a story.

[1:11:28] Susan Blackwell: Uh it's a blind item, I won't name names, but this past summer, I spent a lot of time creating this talk with an accompanying uh sort of a keynote presentation, PowerPoint presentation.

[1:11:39] Laura Camien: And I did the work, the kind of the heavy lifting on behalf of a group of collaborators.

[1:11:45] Susan Blackwell: And after we went through it in advance of the live presentation, the collaborators went straight into notes about what adjustments they wanted to see.

[1:11:53] Laura Camien: And then someone thought to say, Oh, good job.

[1:11:56] Susan Blackwell: Thank you for doing all that work on behalf of the team.

[1:11:59] Laura Camien: And Cammy, this is this might be my rejection-sensitive dysphoria, but I was, I was pissed.

[1:11:59] Susan Blackwell: Yeah.

[1:11:59] Laura Camien: I was pissed.

[1:12:08] Susan Blackwell: Yeah.

[1:12:09] Laura Camien: But here's the kicker.

[1:12:10] Susan Blackwell: I'm guilty of this too.

[1:12:12] Laura Camien: I'm sure I have done this to you, Cammy and in the past 72 hours.

[1:12:18] Susan Blackwell: So I am saying this so I will remember it.

[1:12:21] Laura Camien: Yeah.

[1:12:21] Susan Blackwell: When you follow the I like, and then I notice, and then I'd like to see.

[1:12:27] Laura Camien: I think that feedback is so much easier to hear.

[1:12:30] Laura Camien: And sometimes the "I like" can be "I like and appreciate all the hard work that you've done on this on behalf of our group. Thank you for doing it so I didn't have to do it." I notice that you made a reference to blank. And I'd like to see, or I wonder if it might be more powerful if that reference was changed to blank, like that sort of thing. But man, when we are moving at a, yeah, like when the clock is ticking, I totally forget it. It's like the first thing that goes out the window. It's so fascinating because taking that moment to acknowledge that can save so much time on the back end because you can avoid like the tension, the resistance, the, you know, all of that. When in actuality, but I also think there's something, this is not a fully formed thought, but I think sometimes when we're working with people who we respect and we are assuming they know we respect them.

You know, I know you respect me, I know you know I respect you. It is tempting. Like you can jump right in because there is an assumption of, um, yeah, yeah, yeah. All of this is great. Of course it's great. There's two lines in the third paragraph I would like to change. And I think it's tempting. And I say this for everyone, and including working 20 years with groups of people at Blue Man. It's like you think you can take a shortcut because you've worked together so long. But what is fascinating is that you cannot take that. Do not take the shortcut. You've got to first take the shortcut. This is amazing. It's so much easier for me to respond to something now that you've put 10 pages on paper.

Thank you for doing that. And now I get to come in with just a few wonderings here and there. Wow. Just taking a second to say that. It will, yeah. Yes, I'm agreeing. Yes, is so there are other ways to organize feedback that make it pleasant and productive to give and receive.

[1:14:39] Susan Blackwell: I recently had a conversation with a great artist and a teacher named Emory Lucas. Hi, Emory. Emery teaches a feedback process that was initially inspired by the work of Edward De Bono. Now, Edward De Bono is just an amazing spark of a human who is considered the father of creative thinking. So we're gonna revisit him and all of his amazing work on another episode of the pod. What I want to focus on in this spark is what Emory Lucas focused on. Edward De Bono's thinking hats. It is also worth mentioning that Emory Lucas, Laura, Emory Lucas is a human spirit too. Talking with her is just the dreamiest. I feel like she would be a great guest. Oh, maybe she's gone. Oh, that would be a good thing.

What a magnificent work. Amazing. So Emory said that feedback can mean so many things. And what we were just discussing, it's so emotional. She said the line between the work and the artist is so blurry. So to separate it and leave the ego totally out of it, it's so challenging. Amen, Emory Lucas. Amen. Emory went on to say that people often mistakenly confuse feedback with advice. But according to Emery, quality feedback is actually a means to access what other people's experiences of your work is. So offered and received thoughtfully, feedback gives the creative artist a chance to see their work through the eyes of others. Yes. Which I love that. So Emery studied the work of Edward De Bono and specifically this work around thinking hats.

And I just want to do I just want to provide a brief summary of Edward De Bono's book. It's called Six Thinking Hats. And this is a summary from Reading Graphics.com. This book contains a powerful technique that helps us to explore different perspectives towards a complex situation or challenge, and I'll add or create a project. It simplifies thinking by creating focus on one thing at a time and allows us to engineer switches in thinking without offending others. It has been proven to significantly reduce meeting times. This goes to your point, Cam. Significantly reduce meeting times, improve the quality and speed of brainstorming and decision making, and improve thinking productivity. So each of Edward De Bono's thinking hats represents a different style of thinking. So if you are providing a creative with feedback, you can essentially wear each of the different hats so that you can think about it and provide feedback through those various perspectives.

[1:17:19] Laura Camien: So here's a quick overview. And I want to note that Edward De Bono defined six thinking hats. I'm going to share four because I've talked with Emery and some other teachers, and they feel like these four are the most applicable and useful to creative feedback and in the classroom. Okay. Great. So the red hat represents a gut reaction to the work. What stands out to the responder? Red hat responses might begin with, "When I first saw this, I felt blank," right? So that's just like a gut. Red hat is just like, here's my gut response, here's my visceral emotional response. The yellow hat represents what is working and why. What is making the work strong and why is it? Yellow hat responses might begin with, "I see that you're meeting the goal of blank because I see blank."

So I see that you are meeting the goal of using a lot of bright colors within an eight by ten format because I see a lot of bright colors in an eight by ten format, right? The green hat is about creativity, new ideas, and change. So it could include suggestions for meeting the goal, but instead of using the S word, the should word, Emory's like, she did when she's teaching middle schoolers, she said, "I forbid you to use the S word." And they all giggle and she says, "Should." You may not use the word should, but you may use words like could and what if. So green hat responses might begin with, "You might consider blank because it would blank." So this is about creativity, contributing new ideas and change.

And blue hat is about noticing where the work does not yet meet its goals and what is keeping the work from being strong. So blue hat responses might start with, "It seems that you're not meeting the goal of blank because I see blank." So it seems like you're not meeting the goal of using a lot of colors in an eight by ten format because I see that this is actually 10 by 12 and it's all in black and white. You know what I mean? I mean, those are very black and white examples. But those are those hats.

[1:19:39] Susan Blackwell: Can I ask you a quick question? Um, it seems to me, and maybe you're gonna get to this, but in order to know whether you're meeting a goal or not, everyone would need to know what are the goals. What the goal is? That's absolutely right, Laura. And that is also another, uh, I'm gonna get to this in just a moment, but it's with a lot of these, um, especially these bigger um concepts and structures for feedback that I'm sharing with you now, the responsibility of the creative artist who is sharing the work, the responsibility on them to contextualize what they need in terms of feedback and things like what the goals are. It is there's more responsibility on the sharer of the work to define those things.

I know I'm passionate about this because I feel like when you mentioned that um Emory said that feedback can be confused with advice sometimes. I think it can also be confused with the desire for engagement and just like some of our processes are lonely, and what you're really craving is some human connection and some, you know, engagement. And when it's when you just toss that into feedback, boy, can things get messy. So having real clarity on, you know, asking yourself, "What is it I want from this?" before you jump in is so crucial. But I think you're gonna say more about that. So please proceed.

[1:21:23] Susan Blackwell: Uh I will, and I will. So there is something that is stressed throughout all of this thinking hats work. It's important that no matter what hat you're wearing, that responders strive to be kind, helpful, and specific, which I think just flavors all of it. Yeah. So Emery Lucas spent two years of trial and error taking De Bono's thinking hats, breaking them down, making them more concrete and digestible for middle schoolers so that even younger people would be able to latch on to these ways of thinking. Amazing. What if you learned this when you were younger? What if we learned this when we were younger? I know she did it though. She taught this at the Steam school where she worked with my sister Julie.

Hi Julie, Julie is the person who actually introduced me to Emery, and the whole culture at the school totally adopted it. And when you walk into that school, the thinking hats are represented everywhere. There are thinking hats hanging from the ceiling, literally hats that are the colors of the thinking hats that are suspended above the classroom. Like it is, it has been totally embraced by this educational culture. And this is how these teachers and students contextualize feedback for each other. Emory's students got to a point, and Julie says the same thing about her students, they got to a point where they were able to fluidly switch between hats even when they are working alone. Even when they are working alone. Like, where am I not meeting my goals? Which is just amazing.

[1:23:25] Susan Blackwell: Uh, here's some other helpful refinements that Emery surfaced doing this work. She specifically refers to this as feedback process or feedback conversation. It's not just we, the group, are giving you feedback. It is not a one-sided transactional event, it is a process and a conversation. And there are going to be rules and structure to inform how we engage with each other. Emery discourages the word "good" in the feedback process. "Good for what?" she says. And as I mentioned earlier, she also bans the word "should." She also provides them with this tool, which I'm telling you, Laura, and I'm telling all you sparklys right now, so that I remember it when the heat is on. When you're having a hard time receiving feedback, look the person in the eye, nod your head once and say, "Okay, thanks." So if I'm experiencing RSD, like that I can just look somebody in the eye, nod my head, and say, "Okay, thanks." And now you'll know, Laura, when I do that.

[1:24:37] Laura Camien: Okay. Thanks.

[1:24:39] Susan Blackwell: Rejection sensitive disorder. I have a version of that that I've been doing like with Sweet Wes. I'll be like, "Got it. Got it. Got it. I'm so good. I got it." Because we can't, and now, like if the other person knows that's a clue that you're like, "Okay, I understand it. And I like, I've got your point. Now I need a minute to process that," you know, which okay. Interesting. I think I say "got it" when I've got it. "Got it" to you. It just might mean I think I've got what you're trying to convey. And so we can keep going, especially when we're working against the clock. But I don't want you to think that I'm saying you have to stop talking to me right now. "Got it," which is when you say, "Okay, thanks," that means please stop talking.

You know, Cam, it's funny that we're trying to like work out these tells because I think what's probably first of all, I'm gonna forget all of this because I have Nana Susan amnesia. But I also think what we're doing is even better when we just say, "I'm having a feeling right now, and I'm making or I'm making up a story, and here's the narrative, and I just want to check in with you and see what's going on on your side of that Zoom."

[1:25:59] Laura Camien: Yeah, you know, or I know, like even recently we've just said, like, "I'm going to be fine. I'm processing the loss of this, this edit or whatever, this cut that we're making. I'm just processing it. I will be fine. I'm taking a moment."

[1:26:15] Susan Blackwell: Yeah. I feel like we're both getting better at narrating what is happening in real time.

[1:26:22] Laura Camien: Yes.

[1:26:22] Susan Blackwell: So it doesn't have to be.

[1:26:29] Laura Camien: I think it helps clarify the thought for the person, clarifies the feeling for the person experiencing the feeling to put it into words. And it also is real-time cleanup on aisles.

[1:26:39] Susan Blackwell: It is, it is.

[1:26:41] Laura Camien: And let me help you with that. I brought a broom.

[1:26:43] Susan Blackwell: Like we'll we can just clean that up, you know.

[1:26:46] Laura Camien: I brought some pink sawdust to scatter on your vomit.

[1:26:54] Susan Blackwell: Thanks.

[1:26:54] Laura Camien: You see, you told me a spark about like Detritus and Cereal.

[1:26:59] Susan Blackwell: I give you that.

[1:27:01] So uh back to the spark.

[1:27:02] So Emery said that this work has so many applications beyond the classroom.

[1:27:08] She uses it herself as a human in other workplaces, other consulting she does, uh, certainly in the creative process.

[1:27:17] She describes it as a feedback process that can hit all the different corners of like a creative thing that you're struggling with.

[1:27:25] So I just love this and I love you, Emory Lucas.

[1:27:29] And I can't wait for you to meet Laura Canyon and other members of the SparkFile community.

[1:27:34] So thank you for those tools, Emery and Edward DeBono.

[1:27:37] We're gonna we're gonna meet Edward more thoroughly in a future episode of Sparks File.

[1:27:41] I look forward to that.

[1:27:42] Yeah.

[1:27:43] But that moment is not now.

[1:27:45] Now I would like to return to David Young's email.

[1:27:49] So this is so back to David Young.

[1:27:52] So David writes, and I'm gonna slightly uh editorialize throughout this email, just you know.

[1:27:58] I was listening today to your episode on the upper limit problem and David Sederis.

[1:28:02] Thank you for listening.

[1:28:04] Thanks.

[1:28:04] And I was reminded of a workshop I did about a year ago with a dancer and teacher named Liz Lerman.

[1:28:10] And then a friends.

[1:28:12] This workshop and the one that you, Susan, did via Zoom at Utah State University were highlights of that school year, BTW.

[1:28:18] Whoop boop.

[1:28:19] Thanks.

[1:28:19] I appreciate it.

[1:28:20] I'll take that compliment.

[1:28:21] But back to Liz Lerman.

[1:28:23] She taught the critical response process.

[1:28:26] And I also read her beautiful book of the same title, co-authored with John Vorstel, a framework for giving and receiving creative criticism that breeds confidence, energy, and excitement rather than the defensiveness, negativity, and demotivation that often comes from constructive criticism and quotes.

[1:28:45] It is an incredible philosophy and process, and I am pumped to use it and live with it as a teacher/slash studio professor in the future, because I know it can change the way a musician or any creative approaches their craft.

[1:28:59] And I want to have that kind of positive impact on people.

[1:29:02] David, we love you for it.

[1:29:04] Yeah.

[1:29:04] So beautiful.

[1:29:05] Yeah.

[1:29:05] So David basically did my homework for me.

[1:29:08] Thanks, David.

[1:29:09] And wrote a quick summary of a textbook critical response process discussion.

[1:29:15] And again, I've added some of my own editorial input here.

[1:29:19] And I'm going to talk more about a source of mine in just a moment.

[1:29:23] That's me talking, Susan.

[1:29:24] So these are David's words.

[1:29:26] After the artist shows their work, they interact with responders with the help of a facilitator in four ways.

[1:29:33] So get it?

[1:29:34] There's a moderator on the scene for this.

[1:29:36] Yes.

[1:29:37] Here are the four ways.

[1:29:39] Number one, responders share how the work was meaningful to them or what drew them into the piece.

[1:29:45] This brings to light how art impacts us positively and builds trust between the artist and the responders.

[1:29:52] And I think our twist to this, Cammy and which you brought to our relationship is the artist who's receiving feedback must write it down.

[1:30:00] You must write down the positive.

[1:30:04] Said the person who's like, wait, if you don't have any negative stuff for me, this must not be a feedback session.

[1:30:10] You must write down the positive.

[1:30:12] Yeah.

[1:30:13] Positive feedback is feedback.

[1:30:15] That is positive feedback is feedback.

[1:30:18] Just like you said what Bonnie said, if like we we seem to somehow, you know, being critical on both sides.

[1:30:25] Receiving critical uh feedback is like, okay, that's legit.

[1:30:29] Cause you know, they're telling me what's wrong with me or with my thing.

[1:30:33] And then also the person giving it is like, well, anyone could give positive feedback.

[1:30:39] In order for me to be doing my job, I must give negative feedback.

[1:30:43] I must be critical.

[1:30:44] Right.

[1:30:44] It's my job.

[1:30:45] Right.

[1:30:45] Yeah.

[1:30:46] Right.

[1:30:47] Mm-hmm.

[1:30:47] So number two, the artist, get this.

[1:30:51] The artist asks questions of the responders.

[1:30:55] This allows the artist some control over what kind of feedback is given.

[1:30:59] This is when the real discussion, this is me editorializing.

[1:31:02] This is when the real discussion comes in.

[1:31:04] And the moderator needs to keep it on the question that the artist asked.

[1:31:08] So the moderator needs to keep bringing it back until the artist's questions have been satisfied.

[1:31:14] Mm-hmm.

[1:31:16] So number three, after the artist has asked all their questions, responders ask neutral questions.

[1:31:23] Asking questions not laden with opinions allows the responders to better understand that artist and their work and allows the artist to explore new territory in their work without the impulse to get defensive.

[1:31:35] So a neutral question is something like, what were you trying to convey with the lighting during that section?

[1:31:43] A question laden with opinion would be, why was the lighting in the scene so dark?

[1:31:49] So a side note, almost anything can come up in this section.

[1:31:53] A question could be, have you thought about this as a screenplay?

[1:31:57] That's a neutral question.

[1:31:58] Okay.

[1:31:59] Number four, if the artist gives their consent, responders give opinions.

[1:32:05] Only at the end do responders get to share their opinions and suggestions.

[1:32:09] Asking first, I have a comment about blank.

[1:32:12] May I share it with you?

[1:32:14] So this goes back to consent.

[1:32:16] The artist is given the power to opt out of receiving comments if they don't think it will help them in that moment.

[1:32:24] So this is to your point, Camille, about like I'm I'm taking a lot in right now.

[1:32:28] I'm almost, I'm getting close to capacity full.

[1:32:32] Yep.

[1:32:33] There's no more room at the end.

[1:32:34] So I'm gonna say, not right now, but thank you.

[1:32:38] So uh just a Susan sidebar.

[1:32:40] These opinions should be concise statements set in a way that has kindness attached to them.

[1:32:48] And this is a piece of, and I'm gonna talk about the source of this in just a moment, but I just love this.

[1:32:54] Your opinion is not about your opinion, it is about helping the artist solve their puzzle.

[1:33:01] Yes.

[1:33:02] Yeah.

[1:33:02] Okay.

[1:33:03] I'm going to talk about the source of that sentence in just a moment.

[1:33:06] So all of this came as, as I said, as I was writing about the Sparks and Liz Lerman's critical response process, which still of all the sparks you could send David Young, you little psychic.

[1:33:19] Like it's just crazy.

[1:33:20] So thank you for that, David.

[1:33:22] And thank you for your beautifully written email.

[1:33:25] So when I was working on the Sparks before I heard from David, I had a long nutritious, delicious conversation with a wonderful person named Suzanne Fletcher, who does not claim to be a trained expert in Liz Lerman's critical response process, but she has used a version of this work in a creativity group that she's a member of where she often acts as a moderator.

[1:33:50] And this Suzanne Fletcher is my jam.

[1:33:54] She said that one of the, she's just wonderful.

[1:33:56] She said that one of the reasons she loves this work is because as far as feedback goes, it's like being on the operating table, but with really good anesthesia.

[1:34:07] I mean, come on, Suzanne Fletcher.

[1:34:10] But I don't feel a thing.

[1:34:11] This is the same person who said, your opinion is not about your opinion.

[1:34:15] It's about helping the artist solve this puzzle.

[1:34:18] Like amazing.

[1:34:19] Gems drip from the mouth of Suzanne Fletcher.

[1:34:22] She Suzanne said she also likes this approach because it comes out of the sense that the group providing feedback is trying to help the creative artist figure out this puzzle.

[1:34:31] And maybe the group can help them find a piece.

[1:34:34] So it's uh yeah, yeah, she's wonderful.

[1:34:38] She went on to say it's all storytelling.

[1:34:41] There are there's an infinite number of ways that you can tell the same story.

[1:34:45] So if you're in the midst, if you're an artist, you're in you're in the midst of working on something, the moment someone puts something into your head, you can never get it out.

[1:34:54] So it's not about suggesting how a person rewrite their story.

[1:34:58] You're trying to help the artist make what they want to make instead of getting them to make what you would make.

[1:35:05] And that is the challenge of it and the beauty of it.

[1:35:08] And she said that when the group is in sync with this work, it explodes the possibilities for the creator, which just gives me like goosebumps thought of it.

[1:35:17] Yeah, yep.

[1:35:18] Yep.

[1:35:19] Suzanne said that this approach to feedback process puts more responsibility on the person who is requesting feedback.

[1:35:26] That artist takes more responsibility for what their needs are, Cammy and per our discussion.

[1:35:32] And that means that before one of these critical response sessions, the artist needs to give some forethought to what their needs are and then ask for it.

[1:35:43] Yes.

[1:35:43] Formulate the language to ask for it.

[1:35:46] So uh about this process, my friend Suze, who is also a devotee of Liz Lerman's Critical Response Process says if you have a great moderator, it is great.

[1:35:56] And Suzanne Fletcher, by all accounts, is a great moderator.

[1:36:00] The moderator can help read what the artist is feeling, and they can ask questions like do you want a break?

[1:36:06] Do you need to take notes?

[1:36:08] Do you need a moment of quiet?

[1:36:10] Or you seem to be getting a lot of feedback on character X.

[1:36:14] Do you want to hear more about that or move on?

[1:36:17] Or take a break from that line of discussion.

[1:36:19] Uh huh.

[1:36:20] Which I was just like, genius.

[1:36:22] It's just genius.

[1:36:23] So the group that Suzanne is a part of and Suze is a part of, they've made some fun tweaks to this process, which I just love.

[1:36:30] After the artist presents their work, they get to share their first response to the experience of presenting their work, which I think is great because they get first say to say, Oh my God, that felt wonderful.

[1:36:42] Or oh my God, my heart is pounding.

[1:36:45] I don't was that was rough, friends.

[1:36:48] That felt rough.

[1:36:49] Yeah.

[1:36:49] Um so I loved that.

[1:36:51] Yeah.

[1:36:51] Um, another another tweak.

[1:36:54] When you agree with something someone else is offering, instead of repeating it and restating it, you can they tap their feet or they snap their fingers.

[1:37:02] So it's just sort of like me too, me too, me too without having the point repeated.

[1:37:06] Yes.

[1:37:07] Um, when someone in the group is giving feedback and they begin rewriting the artist's work, the members of the group start flapping their arms like chickens.

[1:37:16] So it's sort of a fun way to just be like, you're doing it, you're doing it again, Ronnie.

[1:37:22] You're trying to rewrite somebody's work.

[1:37:24] Um, and another thing that they encourage is no cross-talking with other members of the group.

[1:37:30] That there's one discussion that's happening at a time.

[1:37:33] Yes.

[1:37:33] It's focused on the artist and the moderator, and there's no cross-talking.

[1:37:36] I like that.

[1:37:37] So yeah, I really I love this approach.

[1:37:41] And I'm so thankful to Liz Lerman for developing it and David Young for sharing the spark, and Suzanne Fletcher and Suzy Meisner for being such badass participants and moderators and sharing their wealth of wisdom around this method.

[1:37:54] Amazing.

[1:37:55] Um, when I was talking to Emery Lucas, she was saying that most people have my reaction when I think about the feedback process and I start getting like that rejection, sensitive dysphoria.

[1:38:10] Emory said, We all have a lot of trauma because so few people have training on how to provide feedback constructively.

[1:38:17] What they are sharing is often about their ego.

[1:38:20] Yes.

[1:38:20] So you're trying to listen to the feedback, and it's coming from their ego, and that's hitting my ego, and we're experiencing all these layers of interpretation.

[1:38:31] So it can a lot can be lost in translation and it can feel like a game of telephone.

[1:38:36] Emory went on to say when it's an artist critiquing another artist, it can be very hard to strip away and understand what you're talking about, which is or what you're working on, which is neither about your ego or mine, but something in between us.

[1:38:53] Yes.

[1:38:54] So to somehow not be affected by that or to take it personally, it's an ongoing practice.

[1:39:00] And I thought it was very wise of Emory to say that.

[1:39:03] This is an ongoing practice.

[1:39:05] It is.

[1:39:06] And you may come to find that there are certain people in your life who are not interested or able to engage in the process, you know, with a set of rules around it.

[1:39:20] Uh and what I mean by that is like there may be someone whose work you respect completely and you want so badly to get their feedback.

[1:39:29] And they may not be a great participant in a feedback process.

[1:39:34] They just may not have the capability.

[1:39:36] They may not be able to extradite their ego from it.

[1:39:40] And in those cases, I think we have to learn to walk away from needing feedback from that person if they have shown themselves to be in it unable to, you know, uh be a participant in this.

[1:39:55] And or might they be able to be trained up in this?

[1:40:00] You know, if they're willing to use a collaborator, yeah, who like who you love, who you've had uh, you've been able to make great things with them.

[1:40:09] Might they be open to employing even some of these tools?

[1:40:13] That's right.

[1:40:15] It also makes me think, Laura, you and I talk a lot when we teach and when we coach, we talk about identifying really well selected, thoughtfully selected accountability partners and collaborative partners.

[1:40:28] And I think this is another one of those dimensions, you know, looking for somebody who is willing to embrace some of these tools so that you can be talking the same language.

[1:40:41] That's right.

[1:40:42] And you can really be lifting each other up and inspiring each other with these conversations instead of inviting more trauma into the situation.

[1:40:54] That's right.

[1:40:55] That's right.

[1:40:55] Yeah.

[1:40:56] Yeah.

[1:40:57] So I just want to share some key takeaways.

[1:41:01] Just because this was, I know this is a lot.

[1:41:03] This is a lot of spark.

[1:41:04] I love all of this.

[1:41:05] When you were on the receiving end of feedback, be specific about who you let hold the measuring stick.

[1:41:10] I mean, we live in a world anyone can say anything that they want.

[1:41:13] And for instance, if you're a student, maybe you have a teacher whose taste is not exactly in alignment with yours, or maybe you're getting reviewed by the New York Times.

[1:41:22] But anyone can say what they want, but you get to decide whose feedback you're going to take in.

[1:41:27] Susan Blackwell: And always remember you can do what Emory Lucas taught us and look at them in the eye, nod your head once, and say, okay, thanks.

[1:41:34] Laura Camien: Um, critical.

[1:41:38] Susan Blackwell: Consent is everything. Regarding that moment of consent, Emery had this to say.

[1:41:43] Laura Camien: The key to the feedback process is not which system you're using. It's more about the moment beforehand where there is the mutual agreement of why we're here and what we want from this moment.

[1:41:55] Susan Blackwell: That moment of consent is the most important of all. If we're both consenting to follow those rules, that moment is more important than any language that you might use afterwards. It puts into the open benefit of the doubt, kindness, and goodness, that we're here for the right reasons and it owns the vulnerability of the moment.

[1:42:16] Laura Camien: I love that. I love that. Um she also said, if there are not limits or boundaries to the conversation, it will not be productive or cultivate an environment of safety.

[1:42:30] Susan Blackwell: There is safety in the knowledge that you can close off parts of the conversation. This is what you were saying, Cams. This is what the Liz Lerman work is doing, where you can say, I have an opinion about blank. Would you like to hear it?

[1:42:43] Laura Camien: And the person can say, I'm that door's, I'm not open for business.

[1:42:49] Susan Blackwell: That door's not, yeah. So working that out in my own mind. You know, so I don't want to I agree that it's perhaps an unfinished or it's an unanswered question. I'd like to spend more time thinking about that first.

[1:43:02] Laura Camien: Exactly. Exactly. Uh another takeaway: if you are seeking feedback, take a more active role in the feedback process and be specific about what you need.

[1:43:13] Susan Blackwell: To that end, providing context is key. Let responders know roughly how much work you've put into this and how sensitive the subject matter is and how familiar or unfamiliar the medium is to you.

[1:43:25] Laura Camien: So, for instance, if you spent 30 minutes writing your one millionth comedy sketch about something you overheard on the subway that made you giggle, we're going to contextualize that differently than say the first chapter of the first book you've ever written that you spent two weeks polishing about a topic that is very hot to the touch for you.

[1:43:43] Susan Blackwell: Providing context is going to help responders calibrate that feedback. And then what do we make of it, Cams?

[1:43:52] Laura Camien: I'll tell you what I'm making of it. I am making a kinder, more productive approach to constructive feedback that empowers the artist to ask specifically for what they need.

[1:44:05] Susan Blackwell: And I think in doing so, perhaps a bit less rejection sensitivity dysphoria.

[1:44:12] Laura Camien: That's that's what I'm gonna make of it.

[1:44:14] Susan Blackwell: That's huge.

[1:44:15] Laura Camien: That is huge.

[1:44:17] Susan Blackwell: It's gonna be huge for you, babe.

[1:44:18] Laura Camien: Woo! I'm so not worried about it. I love that you're doing that for you, and great. All of us will, all of us will benefit.

[1:44:27] Susan Blackwell: But I love doing that also for all of our clients and the knowledge that we will create safe spaces and brave spaces where these conversations can happen without fear of more trauma and without fear of shutting down, you know, with everyone understanding what their role is in it.

[1:44:52] Laura Camien: I haven't figured out how to to um word this yet or or expand upon this. But it's now messy, baby. I'm gonna say, like I would add to to the takeaways, like know when it's not about you.

[1:45:08] Susan Blackwell: Because people, when people do say, let's say they go off the rails and they do say things that that feel inappropriate. The I just can't, I I'm trying to uh I'm like, am I gonna give an example?

[1:45:27] Laura Camien: I was among a bunch of people uh very, very high functioning creatives, and uh someone who was struggling with their own work blurted out no one here knows how to write.

[1:45:43] Susan Blackwell: No one. Whoa.

[1:45:45] Laura Camien: And I was like, I do, I know how to write. I thought, and this is what I thought to myself. I was like, I know how to write. This isn't about me.

[1:45:55] Susan Blackwell: This is about what you're struggling with right now.

[1:45:58] Laura Camien: And I'm not going to take that on. I'm not gonna leave here today with some message that I don't know how to write, because I know that I know how to write.

[1:46:05] Susan Blackwell: And frankly, you know that I know how to write. So this is something you're struggling with right now. I'm gonna have compassion for you and your struggle, but I am not going to put this heavy blanket on my shoulders and walk out of here right now.

[1:46:21] Laura Camien: No way. Man, Camille, it's so here's the thing. When we throw down these like blind item anecdotes, I'm like, who you do know the person with me.

[1:46:34] Susan Blackwell: I'll tell you off. I'll tell you off screen.

[1:46:36] Laura Camien: Oh, you do awesome. I so I want to make sure I'm hearing you correctly. Um, when you, and maybe you're not in this sort of um very thoughtful feedback process that we're describing, but when somebody just blurred something out, being able to identify when it's not about you.

[1:46:57] Susan Blackwell: And this this is something that I have come to later in life. It became very difficult for me because as I mentioned up front, everything was about me.

[1:47:05] Laura Camien: So if anything went wrong, it's a you know, if I'm at a party and people aren't having fun, it's not even my party, but I still feel like I have I've got to get the people like there must be something I'm doing or something I could do. You know, somehow everything's my responsibility.

[1:47:20] Susan Blackwell: How did you not just like how were you not exhausted and just sleeping all the time? It sounds so tiring.

[1:47:27] Laura Camien: But but it's because there wasn't um like I understood my parents not wanting, like on the very far end of the spectrum in the other direction is like, oh, they're just saying that because they're jealous.

[1:47:42] Susan Blackwell: That sort of like um, there isn't anything for me to learn about this because this is just all the other person.

[1:47:49] Laura Camien: That was the opposite of my upbringing. So I'm over here on the other end of the spectrum where everything must be related to my faulty being.

[1:48:00] Susan Blackwell: Of course.

[1:48:00] Laura Camien: Yeah. And so really needing to come to the middle, like I still very rarely will just um a blanket statement like this isn't about me. But there are times when it isn't about you.

[1:48:15] Susan Blackwell: And it took me a long time to learn, and I don't overuse it, but there are times when I can look in someone's face and I can think to myself, oh, hurt people, hurt people.

[1:48:26] Laura Camien: And this is someone who is hurting right now, and they're swinging a knife.

[1:48:26] Susan Blackwell: They're swinging a knife, and I'm just gonna step back. I'm gonna send them some love from afar.

[1:48:35] Laura Camien: But what I'm not going to do is is take on somehow responsibility for what's going on in them.

[1:48:43] Susan Blackwell: And and so I do say that all with a with a like with a nod towards balance, because I don't think that we can learn anything if we operate in that mode all the time.

[1:48:54] Laura Camien: But I do know of many, many a story we've heard about feedback and my own experiences too, where that comment, that really hurtful comment, that's not about you. That came from somewhere else.

[1:49:09] Susan Blackwell: And it's okay to walk away from it. You know, the other thing that's coming to mind for me is I'm like, when does this break down?

[1:49:21] Laura Camien: And what I have observed is this breaks down when there's a ticking clock, when it's sort of like it's we don't have much time.

[1:49:29] Susan Blackwell: Yes, and it's almost go time and we have to be working very quickly, or when I am tired.

[1:49:38] Laura Camien: And when I'm tired, I can get a little sloppy one, sloppy with my self-expression. And I may forget, I like, I notice, I'd like to see, right? That goes out the window.

[1:49:50] Susan Blackwell: But also when my uh my defenses are down or that adaptation energy is low.

[1:49:56] Laura Camien: I know I've observed in myself, even in interactions with you, where I will perceive something that later in the cool light of day when we unpack it and clean it up, I'm like, yeah, when I'm tired, I can take things, I can go more quickly to that um dysphoria.

[1:50:20] Susan Blackwell: Sure, sure.

[1:50:21] Laura Camien: And I and you got to think like that happens in groups as well. I'll add to the list of when it breaks down or or has the potential to break down, and I think that is when in a group setting and asking for any kind of feedback, if there is an idea in anyone's head that they can impress others with their criticisms with the way they their ability to pull something apart.

[1:50:50] Susan Blackwell: So if that dynamic is set up where there are leaders in the space and there are people who want to impress, I think it can break down because people then instead of thinking that my job is to help solve this puzzle for this artist, they think my job is to stand above head, head and shoulder above the rest.

[1:51:11] Laura Camien: Yeah.

[1:51:12] Susan Blackwell: Yeah.

[1:51:12] Laura Camien: So this is where I feel like somebody like Suzanne Fletcher is such a fucking badass. This is where she totally kicks ass because she's no joke.

[1:51:24] Susan Blackwell: Like she's uh she's not having it.

[1:51:27] Laura Camien: She's she's this warm, wonderful person. And it's also she's very direct and she is she is not having it.

[1:51:34] Susan Blackwell: She's there.

[1:51:35] Laura Camien: And she said that thing that I love, which is your opinion is not about your opinion, it's about helping the artist solve their puzzle.

[1:51:44] Susan Blackwell: And she is uh how can I say I don't even know. She's there to like make sure that artist is getting what they need.

[1:51:55] Laura Camien: And I almost said like bodyguarding them, and it's not that, but uh but a little bit is to be that advocate for that person when they're vulnerably sharing of themselves and then also vulnerably receiving input on as Emory Lucas was saying, work where the artist and their what they make, those lines are really blurry.

[1:52:19] Susan Blackwell: So it can be like I'm sharing something of myself, I'm sharing myself. Those lines are really blurry.

[1:52:26] Laura Camien: And so you're right. Having like a really good moderator. It's essential.

[1:52:35] Susan Blackwell: And I think like collective agreement on why we're gathered here today, what is our purpose?

[1:52:40] Laura Camien: Yeah. I do think like again in the professional world and the creative world, um, there is there is a instinct and a belief that it's necessary to be additive.

[1:52:53] Susan Blackwell: So if you did not contribute something amazing in this critique, you haven't been additive.

[1:53:00] Laura Camien: So why were you in this meeting? Why are you a part of this group?

[1:53:04] Susan Blackwell: And so trying is you know, figuring out how to alleviate that. It is okay if you don't have the answer.

[1:53:11] Laura Camien: If I don't have anything that could be helpful to Susan in her process right now, it is okay for me to remain quiet in appreciation of her work, but simply like, I don't know that I have an answer.

[1:53:25] Susan Blackwell: And it and that's fine.

[1:53:27] Laura Camien: So you can pass.

[1:53:29] Susan Blackwell: But I don't think that things are typically set up where that feels like it's an okay thing.

[1:53:35] Laura Camien: It feels like, well, you're not right.

[1:53:37] Susan Blackwell: Yeah, why are you not saying something?

[1:53:39] Laura Camien: So it's interesting. I love this spark. I love this conversation.

[1:53:42] Susan Blackwell: I really think it's it's a it's an honorable quest to get to.

[1:53:50] Laura Camien: I do too. I do too. And I am excited to implement much of this and and reinvest in some of it and uh and to share it with um artists that we love and including our our clients.

[1:54:04] Susan Blackwell: So yeah, I love it too. Good job. Beautiful Sparks.

[1:54:09] Laura Camien: I think that's it.

[1:54:10] Susan Blackwell: I think it's time to get you onto your vaccine, kid.

[1:54:13] Laura Camien: Okay, I'm gonna do it.

[1:54:14] Susan Blackwell: All right. This episode of The Spark File was made on Muncie Lenape and Seminole Land.

[1:54:19] Laura Camien: And as always, we hope this put another bunch of sparks in your file. If there's a spark you'd like us to explore, David Young, or if you've taken a spark and fanned it into a creative flame and you'd like to share that, also David Young, email us at thesparkfile at gmail.com or submit it through our website, thesparkfile.com.

[1:54:38] Susan Blackwell: We'll even take your feedback happily. But you know the price of admission.

[1:54:40] Laura Camien: First, you have to share a creative risk that you have taken recently.

[1:54:45] Susan Blackwell: You can follow us on social at The Sparkfile and be sure to subscribe, rate, and five-star review this podcast.

[1:54:51] Laura Camien: It really helps other listeners find us. And if you like this podcast, we hope you'll share it with people you love.

[1:54:57] Susan Blackwell: And if you didn't like it, ask consent before you give us feedback.

[1:55:01] Laura Camien: But yes, Emory Lucas. If something tickles your fancy and gets your creative juices flowing, we're writing you a forever permission slip to make that thing that's been knocking at your door.

[1:55:13] Susan Blackwell: It's your turn to take a spark and fan it into a flame.

[1:55:17] Laura Camien: You gotta take it and make it Sparks!

[1:55:23] Susan Blackwell: Sparkus!

[1:55:25] Laura Camien: When I bump into something that inspires me, I dump it in the spark files.

[1:55:34] Susan Blackwell: Could be something that I wanna make or how I wanna be.

[1:55:39] Laura Camien: I'll pump it in the spark files.

[1:55:44] Susan Blackwell: I jump into my spark files, a jump.

[1:55:49] Laura Camien: Let's open up the spark fires.