This transcript was automatically generated and might contain errors.

[0:10] Susan Blackwell: When I bump into something that inspires me, I jump in my spark file.

[0:18] Laura Camien: Spark file to be something that I wanna make or how I wanna be.

[0:23] Susan Blackwell: I pump it in my spark style. Spark!

[0:28] Laura Camien: I jump into my spark slide.

[0:32] Susan Blackwell: Let's open up the spark file.

[0:37] Laura Camien: Welcome to the Sparks File, where we believe that everyone is creative, but smart creative people don't go it alone.

[0:43] Susan Blackwell: I'm Laura Camien.

[0:45] Susan Blackwell: And I'm Susan Blackwell, and we are creativity coaches who help people fear less, create more, and bring their creative visions to life.

[0:53] Laura Camien: If you are an OG member of the Sparks File community, welcome back, Sparkler.

[0:59] Susan Blackwell: Hey, if you're joining us for the first time, welcome, friend.

[1:03] Laura Camien: Know that just by listening to this podcast, you are joining a warm and wonderful clan of creatives.

[1:09] Susan Blackwell: But you may be asking yourself, ladies, what exactly is a spark file?

[1:13] Laura Camien: Uh-huh.

[1:14] Susan Blackwell: A spark file is a place where you consistently collect all of your inspirations and fascinations.

[1:22] Laura Camien: If you're like us and you're making stuff all the time, or you want to be making stuff all the time, you know if you're not careful, your campfire of creativity can flicker out.

[1:31] Susan Blackwell: But do not despair.

[1:33] Laura Camien: We are collecting kindling in the form of fresh ideas, images, and inspiration that spark creativity and pique curiosity to light a fire under our collective asses to make things like this podcast.

[1:48] Susan Blackwell: Or a lasting approach to the changes we want to make in life and in our creativity.

[1:54] Laura Camien: Oh, every episode, we're gonna reach into our spark files and exchange some sparks.

[2:00] Susan Blackwell: And from time to time, we're gonna talk to some folks who spark us too.

[2:04] Laura Camien: You know what that means, Susan Blackwell.

[2:06] Susan Blackwell: What?

[2:06] Laura Camien: It means we have more sparks than we can possibly use in this lifetime.

[2:11] Susan Blackwell: A surplus of sparks.

[2:13] Laura Camien: A surplus of sparks.

[2:15] Susan Blackwell: If something lights you up, we encourage you to take that thing.

[2:20] Laura Camien: Get this surplus off our hands.

[2:22] Susan Blackwell: Take that thing and make something out of it.

[2:26] Laura Camien: Without further ado, friends, let's open up the spark file.

[2:31] Susan Blackwell: Laura Camien.

[2:32] Laura Camien: Susie Q.

[2:33] Susan Blackwell: It's spark time.

[2:35] Laura Camien: Woo!

[2:36] Susan Blackwell: I'm excited.

[2:37] Laura Camien: I'm excited because you're gonna spark me.

[2:39] Susan Blackwell: I'm gonna spark you, but before I do, do you have a baby spark you want to share with me?

[2:44] Laura Camien: I know sometimes you have a little, you have a little, a little bushel basket full of baby sparks.

[2:50] Susan Blackwell: Well, I did just mention that I had started collecting some little baby sparks.

[2:55] Susan Blackwell: I'm gonna tell you something I was sparked by recently. It was an act of generosity and kindness and sweetness.

[3:01] Susan Blackwell: So unbeknownst to me, my dad has collected like a coin collection his whole life.

[3:08] Susan Blackwell: And last year I was on a trip to see him, and I spent the whole day with him.

[3:14] Susan Blackwell: He has Parkinson's now, and so he can't do a lot with his hands, but one of the things he can do is like sit and clean his coins.

[3:21] Susan Blackwell: And I was like, Dad, these are amazing. Where'd you get all these coins?

[3:24] Susan Blackwell: And um, we had so much fun.

[3:27] Susan Blackwell: We spent two full days, and I just listened.

[3:29] Susan Blackwell: I think I might have said this on the podcast before, so I apologize if I'm being redundant.

[3:33] Susan Blackwell: But he recollected memories again, like with his Parkinson's, he has like very crisp and vivid memories of the distant past, not so much of like recent past.

[3:45] Susan Blackwell: But he would be like, This coin, I was in a diner when I was 12 years old and saw it.

[3:52] Susan Blackwell: It's amazing. It's like an enormous dollar coin with Lady Liberty and whatnot.

[3:57] Susan Blackwell: Anyway, he had these amazing coins, and of course, at the end, we just spent so much time together.

[4:03] Susan Blackwell: And he was like, you know, Lulu, take whatever you want, take whatever you want.

[4:06] Susan Blackwell: I'm like, Dad, I'm not gonna take from your coin collection.

[4:10] Susan Blackwell: Um, and then eventually I was like, okay, I'll take like one coin with the intent on making it like into a necklace, right?

[4:17] Susan Blackwell: So I could just carry it with me and be love that.

[4:19] Susan Blackwell: And so I chose this penny coin from like 1863 or something, and I loved it.

[4:26] Susan Blackwell: And it also was like a tiny bit dented and stuff.

[4:30] Susan Blackwell: So I was like, I'm not gonna take any of the coins that are so I take it and I come back here and I'm like, okay, I don't want to like drill a hole in this, I don't want the coin to be damaged.

[4:42] Susan Blackwell: How am I gonna make this into a necklace?

[4:43] Susan Blackwell: And I thought of my friend Stephen Went.

[4:46] Susan Blackwell: Stephen Went because listen, friends, Stephen Went is first of all, first and foremost, an extraordinary human being, like just a wonderful person, like like fucking delight of a human being.

[5:01] Susan Blackwell: He's a blue man, he's a musician, he's an actor, he has so many talents.

[5:06] Susan Blackwell: I could not even it would be a dedicated episode to Stephen Went to talk about his many talents.

[5:13] Susan Blackwell: But among them, he makes jewelry, like handcrafts jewelry, and he worked.

[5:17] Susan Blackwell: If you want to look him up, it's Studio Went, Studio Went, W-E-N-D-T went.

[5:24] Susan Blackwell: And so I went to him and I asked, could you make this into a necklace?

[5:30] Susan Blackwell: And so he did.

[5:30] Susan Blackwell: He like framed it and created a hook for it so it would go on the necklace that I wear, etc.

[5:36] Susan Blackwell: Yesterday, Wes Day comes home, and he's like, Oh, yeah, I've got this.

[5:44] Susan Blackwell: I've got this for you.

[5:45] Susan Blackwell: And I was like, What's this? What do you mean?

[5:47] Susan Blackwell: Just because he felt inspired to Stephen Went made me these like two additional charms, like these feather charms that would go with that coin.

[5:59] Susan Blackwell: Because he felt inspired and he I don't know why.

[6:01] Susan Blackwell: Because he's an amazing human. Did I mention that?

[6:03] Susan Blackwell: He's an amazing human being.

[6:05] Susan Blackwell: So Wes comes home and he's like, Steven made these for you.

[6:08] Susan Blackwell: And so I added them to my necklace.

[6:11] Susan Blackwell: And I was just like, man, that just was so awesome.

[6:16] Susan Blackwell: It was the kindest thing.

[6:18] Susan Blackwell: Awesome.

[6:19] Susan Blackwell: Really, really cool.

[6:20] Susan Blackwell: And it, I gotta tell you, it feels amazing to wear someone's piece of art, like around your neck, that they made for you with their own hands out of their own inspiration and imagination.

[6:36] Laura Camien: Yeah.

[6:36] Susan Blackwell: And Steven makes incredible stuff.

[6:38] Susan Blackwell: If you go to his Instagram, he made, like for those Harry Potter fans, he made a tiny little Quidditch ball with wings.

[6:47] Laura Camien: Oh, like a snitch.

[6:49] Susan Blackwell: The snitch, the snitch.

[6:50] Susan Blackwell: And it's so intricate and it's so beautiful.

[6:53] Susan Blackwell: He makes rings, he makes necklaces, all of it.

[6:55] Susan Blackwell: It's amazing.

[6:56] Susan Blackwell: Stephen made a beautiful ring for my friend's daughter.

[7:03] Susan Blackwell: Hi Clara for the holidays.

[7:05] Susan Blackwell: It's a beautiful, really, really delicate gold band with this like beautiful little diamond chip in it.

[7:13] Susan Blackwell: And it's so delicate and so beautiful.

[7:24] Laura Camien: Did you connect them?

[7:25] Susan Blackwell: Yes.

[7:26] Laura Camien: Stephen Went.

[7:27] Susan Blackwell: Okay, yes, because if you want something special, something one of a kind, unique, and boy, it feels pretty magical.

[7:35] Susan Blackwell: Stephen Went.

[7:36] Laura Camien: I love that spark.

[7:37] Susan Blackwell: Yeah, that's my little mini spark.

[7:40] Laura Camien: Mini Sparks to Joe, Stephen Went.

[7:41] Susan Blackwell: Thanks for going with me there.

[7:42] Susan Blackwell: It took a minute, but now just spreading the love.

[7:46] Susan Blackwell: Just acts of kindness and creative kindness.

[7:49] Susan Blackwell: Like when you give a gift of yourself that is born of your creativity, damn, there's just nothing like it.

[7:55] Laura Camien: Nothing better.

[7:56] Susan Blackwell: I just gave someone one of my paintings.

[7:58] Laura Camien: And I was like so happy that they were stoked about it.

[8:02] Susan Blackwell: And yeah.

[8:04] Laura Camien: Sues.

[8:04] Susan Blackwell: It's fun.

[8:05] Laura Camien: Yeah.

[8:06] Susan Blackwell: All right.

[8:10] Laura Camien: May I spark you?

[8:12] Susan Blackwell: Please spark me.

[8:13] Laura Camien: All right.

[8:14] Laura Camien: This spark, I'll just jump into it.

[8:17] Laura Camien: So you, I think have heard the story, Susan.

[8:20] Laura Camien: So several years back, I took a series of acting classes with a great on-camera acting coach named Bob Krakower.

[8:29] Laura Camien: If you work in film and television, you know that name.

[8:31] Laura Camien: You act in film and television, you may know that name.

[8:33] Laura Camien: Bob is this really, really fantastic teacher and coach.

[8:38] Laura Camien: He's a no-nonsense guy who came highly recommended by my film and TV friends.

[8:44] Laura Camien: And I went to him because very specifically, when I have an issue, like when I have a specific issue, I like to go to the coach or the teacher that's gonna help me like just go straight to specialist specialist.

[8:59] Laura Camien: Yep.

[9:00] Laura Camien: So I went to him specifically because when I worked on stage, I felt like I knew exactly what I was doing.

[9:06] Laura Camien: I knew how I just knew because I had clocked 10,000 hours on stage, I knew how to scale my performance for the size of the space.

[9:15] Laura Camien: So if it's 50 chairs or a thousand seats, like I just knew how to dial it.

[9:21] Laura Camien: I knew how to not to be self-aggrandizing, but like how to hold the audience in my in the palm of my hand.

[9:30] Susan Blackwell: Have I mentioned Susan Blackwell is magic?

[9:33] Laura Camien: She's magic.

[9:34] Susan Blackwell: You are you knew how to do that.

[9:37] Laura Camien: Absolutely.

[9:38] Laura Camien: I just knew how to command how how to draw focus to myself, how to release it, how to toss focus to someone else, just by thinking it.

[9:48] Laura Camien: So I just had spent so much time on stage and I really felt like I understood it.

[9:53] Laura Camien: But when it came to on-camera work, Susan, I was just terrified.

[9:59] Laura Camien: I didn't have that innate understanding of the relationship to the camera and all the fine technical skills that are required, the scale, the actual physical space, what I was and was not allowed to touch when I was on set, where I was and was not allowed to walk on set.

[10:19] Laura Camien: And as a result, every time I was on set, which was regularly, because I was working, I was just panic stricken.

[10:28] Susan Blackwell: You did not feel a sense of freedom because you did not correct a mando.

[10:32] Laura Camien: Yeah, Bonzi.

[10:33] Laura Camien: Yes.

[10:34] Laura Camien: So I felt that that constriction and like I was gonna fuck up at every turn.

[10:40] Susan Blackwell: Yep, that makes sense.

[10:42] Laura Camien: But as I said, I believe in good coaches, I believe in specialists and also in my ability to learn and develop even very nuanced things around technical craft and art and creativity.

[10:54] Laura Camien: So I just believe so much is of it is learnable, and I just hadn't had the exposure.

[10:59] Susan Blackwell: That's right.

[11:00] Laura Camien: You have that confidence.

[11:01] Laura Camien: You're like, just put me in a room with someone who has this knowledge and I can get it.

[11:07] Laura Camien: I can learn it.

[11:08] Susan Blackwell: Yeah.

[11:08] Laura Camien: I'm reminded right now, Susan and I had a meeting, an intense meeting today with a financial specialist about a very specialized financial thing.

[11:16] Laura Camien: And I was just like, I told him at the outset, I was like, we're bright people, but we haven't been doing this for 30 years like you have.

[11:23] Laura Camien: So just know I'm gonna ask you to repeat things.

[11:26] Laura Camien: I'm going to We're gonna repeat it back to you.

[11:29] Laura Camien: Yeah, we're gonna ask you to repeat it back to us.

[11:31] Laura Camien: We're gonna ask you to say it again slower.

[11:34] Laura Camien: I'm gonna take notes.

[11:35] Laura Camien: I'm gonna go back and watch the replay and take more notes.

[11:38] Laura Camien: But we're gonna get it.

[11:39] Susan Blackwell: But we're gonna get it.

[11:40] Laura Camien: Yeah.

[11:40] Laura Camien: And that's how I felt about this very specific acting for the camera thing.

[11:44] Susan Blackwell: Yeah.

[11:44] Laura Camien: Amazing.

[11:45] Laura Camien: So in summary, I went to study with Bob Krakower to fill in what I didn't know.

[11:50] Susan Blackwell: Yeah.

[11:51] Laura Camien: Bob Krakower was and is great.

[11:55] Laura Camien: Changed my life.

[11:56] Susan Blackwell: Yeah.

[11:56] Laura Camien: Provided me with this foundational information so I could audition for and act on camera with so much less fear, so much more freedom.

[12:06] Susan Blackwell: Thank you, Bob Krakower.

[12:08] Laura Camien: Yeah, thank you, Bob.

[12:09] Laura Camien: But here's this fun twist.

[12:11] Laura Camien: One of the most informative things that I learned about creativity and storytelling of all kinds came from Bob Krakower.

[12:19] Laura Camien: Susan, you have heard me talk about this little nugget before.

[12:22] Susan Blackwell: Okay. Listeners, I'm certain you've heard me say this before. And if you have studied creativity or acting with me before, I know you've heard me say this. We've definitely gotten it. You've got you've heard it, but this is where it comes from. So I was doing this scene from the West Wing, and I finished, and Bob gave me some notes and said some nice things and bolstered my confidence. And then the last thing he said, I'll never forget it. The last thing he sort of threw off was, I'd like to see more change from the beginning to the end. But other than that, it's great. And this light bulb went off in my head. And this is one of those things. Yeah. Once you know this, you're never gonna watch your favorite actors or read your favorite stories the same way again.

When you're like, that is really good. That thing I'm watching, or that thing I'm reading, or that story I'm listening to is so satisfying. See if what you're responding to in part is that something is changing before your very eyes.

[13:22] Laura Camien: Yes.

[13:23] Susan Blackwell: Yeah. I believe that we as humans love stories, and one of the reasons we love stories is that whether it's the writing of Tony Morrison or someone doing a story time on TikTok, or it's a great scene from the West Wing, or a piece of music that moves us, it's because we are getting to observe change. I think that we as humans love to observe change. I mean, I think every good story is about something changing. Changing. And nothing would ever be the same again. Yeah?

[14:01] Laura Camien: That's right. Cams, do you have like a scene from a movie that you love? I know that you've been watching a lot of movies because you're studying screenwriting, but is there is there something that you have seen, or just think about like if I said Camps, what's your favorite movie? What's one of your favorite movies?

[14:17] Laura Camien: Oh, Sense and Sensibility, Emma Thompson's version is like in my top five. But so is like role models and things like that. I love, oh my god, I love that fucking movie.

[14:26] Susan Blackwell: Are you talking change?

[14:27] Laura Camien: Yeah.

[14:28] Susan Blackwell: Yes. Is there if you're thinking of a specific scene that you love in that? Are there shifts or changes throughout the course of that scene that she makes?

[14:40] Laura Camien: The biggest example that comes to mind, it's it's an obvious one, but you feel it most because her pattern throughout the whole movie has been to keep all of her emotions locked in and not reveal her feelings. Um, and so when she discovers that the man that she loves, played by Hugh Grant, is not in fact married, he's actually still available and has feelings for her. She likes this flood comes bursting out from her almost like uncontainable ugly cry, like not a contained, beautiful, delicate little cry, but but the dam has opened.

[15:25] Susan Blackwell: Yes.

[15:25] Laura Camien: There's no putting the toothpaste back in the tube. How satisfying is that so good.

[15:30] Susan Blackwell: So fucking good.

[15:32] Laura Camien: So good. And that and the pressure has been building up to the change.

[15:37] Susan Blackwell: Yes.

[15:38] Laura Camien: But Susan, also in the same movie, the tiniest, tiniest, tiniest change is Alan Rickman. So he has been like, I wouldn't say romantically loving, but caring for Kate Winslet's um character the whole time. And she doesn't pay him one bit of mind. She's in love with a handsome young man who screwed her over. But when Kate Winslet's character is sick and potentially on her deathbed, Alan Rickman flies away on his horse, comes back with her mom, who, you know, she won't and she sees her mom, and she's very grateful and happy that her mom is there with her now. And Alan Rickman is just gonna slink out of the room because he, you know, he's done what he can, and he that's it. And she doesn't usually pay that much attention to him. She stops him before going out before he leaves, and she says, Thank you, Colonel Brandon, thank you. And in his face, Susan, the change in his face. Not even a word, but his change is like it's like he's been seen. And it's beautiful.

[16:55] Susan Blackwell: So on the opposite end of like in terms of like big acting and small acting. Subtle, subtle.

[17:01] Laura Camien: Yeah.

[17:02] Susan Blackwell: Okay. All right, thanks for that. Thank you. That was fun. And beautiful illustrations of why we love observing change. So I'm gonna tell you, jumping my own spark. A key, what do we make of this? If you are making something, anything, something's gotta change, which brings me to my Sparks du jour, change in all its glory. Change it.

[17:25] Laura Camien: And all forms, that's right.

[17:28] Susan Blackwell: Can we sing that Brady Bunch song? Do you remember when it's time to change?

[17:33] Laura Camien: You've got to read.

[17:36] Susan Blackwell: Thank you. I had not included that reference in this spark, but I'm so glad you did. So change is something that we talked a lot about during the recent Sparkfile New York Creativity kickoff.

[17:47] Laura Camien: Yeah.

[17:48] Susan Blackwell: Many of the people there, and I adventure many of the people listening to this podcast, you're listening because you enjoy changing something in relation to your creativity, advancing it, refining it, and you're looking for sparks to feed the fire to light the way.

[18:04] Laura Camien: Absolutely.

[18:05] Susan Blackwell: There's this Maya Angelou quote that we love. We delight in the beauty of the butterfly, but we rarely admit the change it has gone through to achieve that beauty.

[18:17] Laura Camien: Love that Maya Angelou quote.

[18:19] Susan Blackwell: And to put it another way, I heard this recently in The Spark that I'll get into, but many of us desperately crave transformation.

[18:27] Laura Camien: Yes.

[18:28] Susan Blackwell: While simultaneously, desperately avoiding change.

[18:33] Laura Camien: Woof.

[18:34] Susan Blackwell: Because that's the painful part. Yeah. So that can mean change personally for us as humans. But as you pointed out before, Camps, it can also happen to the characters we're creating. You have said this before about how we hesitate to subject our characters to painful change.

[18:53] Laura Camien: That is correct.

[18:54] Susan Blackwell: If we can avoid it, yeah. Well, there's all there's a storytelling, um, I don't know, technique, I guess you could describe it very quickly as you know, your character has a goal, they try to achieve it first the easy way. Yes, they don't get it, then they try the hard way. And what that is short for the easy way is getting what they want without having to change, and it and they can't get it. Yeah. They're going to have to change in order to get what they want, and that's the hard way, and that's what we want to see.

[19:25] Laura Camien: I feel like the first time I heard that, you may have heard it earlier, but Greg Bonsignor came to work with the Sparkfile cohort.

[19:31] Susan Blackwell: Yeah.

[19:32] Laura Camien: And I don't think I'd ever heard it put quite that way before. But yes, that is it, isn't it?

[19:38] Susan Blackwell: It is. They want people want to get what they want. Characters want to get what they want with the minimal change as possible.

[19:45] Laura Camien: Well, like, you know, I studied with a latte here at the independent film school, and it's the it's the same thing. Everybody just has this different language for it, but a character has a pattern. They will try everything they can to get what they want without relinquishing that pattern that is that is keeping them from it.

[20:03] Susan Blackwell: Yes.

[20:03] Laura Camien: And so finally, in the end, we come upon the question will they change their pattern? Do they want it badly enough to change their pattern or will they not? And you can write it that they do not change, and that would be a tragedy, of course. Like you, you those are those movies that you're like, no, I watched all of this. They're not gonna change.

[20:26] Susan Blackwell: Yes.

[20:28] Laura Camien: How can they not change?

[20:30] Susan Blackwell: Yes, yes.

[20:32] Laura Camien: Yeah. Remember this. That resistance to pattern shifting, I think is very relevant to the Sparks. I want to talk about change today in many of its forms and how we, as humans and artists, can navigate lasting positive change.

[20:48] Susan Blackwell: Yeah, baby. So recently, Super Sparkler Sarah Lapano! Hi, Sarah. Shared a spark with us that blew my wig off. Uh, before I get to that spark, I just want to shout out Sarah. Sarah is a glorious photographer.

[21:03] Laura Camien: Yes.

[21:04] Susan Blackwell: Who began photographing the theater scene in Stratford Canada, and her photography was recently published in the Toronto Star.

[21:12] Laura Camien: Yes!

[21:13] Susan Blackwell: And it's gorgeous. As is Sarah.

[21:15] Laura Camien: Yes, Sarah.

[21:16] Susan Blackwell: Well done. I think Sarah has, in addition to being a glorious artist, has the heart of a teacher, is such an innate spark seeker. And Sarah shared this great podcast with us. It's a two-parter of Brene Brown's Dare to Lead podcast featuring an interview with Lisa Laskow Lahey.

[21:39] Laura Camien: So this in turn, that podcast led me to the work of Lisa Laskow Lahey and Bob Keegan. Lisa and Bob are both on the faculty of graduate education at Harvard, and they have done a lot of research and writing around the concept of change and specifically how to close the gap between aspirations slash good intentions and actual behavior shifts. And together they wrote a book called Immunity to Change.

[22:08] Susan Blackwell: Oh. That is what I want to talk about deeply today and all the forms of change.

[22:13] Laura Camien: Oh, I'm excited. I saw you take a little note. Is there anything you want to say to me before we launch Laura Camille?

[22:18] Laura Camien: It was about Sarah. I wanted to, I was actually making a note to self. I want to write to Sarah and tell her how wonderful it is that she got her photos published in the Toronto Star.

[22:28] Susan Blackwell: Oh, I just was raving in my mind about Sarah even more and uh wanting to reach out and let her know.

[22:35] Laura Camien: Good gossip.

[22:36] Susan Blackwell: Good gossip. We love that. Um, we like to spread good gossip. So in this podcast between Brene Brown and Lisa Laskow Lahey, what first caught my ear was this reference Lisa Laskow Lahey shared about a research study. In the study, seven at-risk heart patients were informed by their doctor that they must change or die. And Lisa Leahy calls this ripe conditions for people to make a change. There were clear needed behavior changes. For example, they must lose weight, stop smoking, exercise, consistently take their medication. There was high incentive. For example, you increase your chances of living a longer, healthier life. And time-wise, there was a sense of urgency. So life or death, high stakes, time-sensitive ripe conditions, and clear needed behavior changes. And here's the gag of it all. Even with all of those ripe conditions in place, less than one human being out of the seven could make the necessary changes.

[23:37] Laura Camien: It is, but Lisa Laskow Lahey stressed that it's very easy to make ungenerous interpretations towards the six people that couldn't navigate the change. But when it comes to desired changes, the situation is not that simple or clear cut. And when I was thinking about my own version of this, which with the stakes are probably lower, but like lasting change that I want to make, I was like, I'm with you, six out of the seven people.

[24:07] Susan Blackwell: Yes. Making lasting change, it can be really fucking challenging. I mean, even when you know I know exactly what needs to change. And still, yeah, absolutely. And still, yeah.

[24:20] Laura Camien: So Lisa Leahy points out that there is this myth that if a desired change is not happening, it's because you don't want it enough.

[24:28] Susan Blackwell: That's right.

[24:29] Laura Camien: And it's, oh I'm getting, I yes, I have thoughts, but you keep going.

[24:33] Susan Blackwell: It is a myth. Motivation, she said, motivation does matter, but it's not sufficient. It doesn't take into account the other unseen motivations that may be working at cross purposes with your desired goal or behavior change.

[24:49] Susan Blackwell: So saying that another way, we may aspire to transform and even commit to it. But oftentimes we are also experiencing other unconscious motivators that are controlling us and they can keep us stuck. She goes on to say that for most of us, we have one model of change that we all rely on. And you can bet that this really caught my ear. I heard this like right before the New Year's, and I was like, say more, Lisa Laskow Lahey. So in the New Year's model of change, you all know it. We name a resolution and then we try to use willpower to pick yours, get healthy, stop drinking, stop smoking, lose weight, get organized, or I don't know, be more creative in the coming year. Oh, finish that script. Do God, finish the first draft of my memoir.

Yeah. Name it. So Lisa Leahy gives us an example about how she's an avid exerciser. And every January, she goes to the gym and there's not an available machine. And she said to Brene Brown, how long before you think I've got my pick of all the machines in the gym? Late February. Because that's about how long the New Year's model of change takes before it just starts right out. Before it starts right out. That's how long that willpower will, that's how far it'll get you. Just trying to push with that. Yeah, just trying to white knuckle through it. So sometimes, maybe for one of seven, sometimes that New Year's model can work, but for most of us, there is something more complex going on that we need to address in order to implement lasting change. And that New Year's model is not nuanced enough and it doesn't give you a greater view of what might be going on inside of you.

[26:40] Laura Camien: What's going on?

[26:41] Susan Blackwell: Exactly. Yeah, exactly. So what can happen when we don't look at the forces in our life that may be working under the surface at cross purposes with our stated desired goals is similar to having one foot on the accelerator and you put your energy into moving towards that goal and having the other foot on the brake as your hidden goal or hidden counter commitment engages. So if you're a little, if you as a creative or a human are a little car, you're basically standing still and just remaining in your version of status quo. So an example of that in the realm of creativity might be foot on the gas. I have a goal to be more creatively self-expressed this year. And your hidden foot on the brake counter commitment might be, I don't want to upset anyone with my creative self-expression.

I've committed not to upset anyone, not my family, not I don't want to shine too brightly with my creative self-expression. So you have foot on the gas. I want to be more creatively self-expressed this year, foot on the brake. I don't want to upset anybody with that. So my God. So there's that little status quo. Oh. So I thought it might be fun today to talk through some of the basics of Lisa Laskow Lahey and Bob Keegan's change work that totally sparked me and are making a big difference in my 2023. And if you want to hear this laid out beautifully in real time, I highly recommend you listen to that podcast with Brene Brown, where she gets her mind blown by Lisa Laskow Lahey. Lisa Laskow Lahey essentially walks Brene Brown through a change that Brene would like to make.

And so I followed along with that podcast. And then I dug into Leahy and Keegan's book, Immunity to Change, and the top of my head opened up. Um, but I thought it might be fun today, Laura, to talk you through uh it could be something, maybe I don't know. I thought I want to put you on the spot.

[28:41] Laura Camien: I'm ready. I'm ready.

[28:43] Susan Blackwell: So I'm no Lisa Laskow Lahey, but uh I'll talk you through it and really go to her and Bob Keegan's work to really experience this. But Laura, if you want, you can make four columns in your notebook.

[28:58] Laura Camien: Okay, okay.

[28:59] Susan Blackwell: In column one, you're going to define a commitment or an improvement goal for yourself. And according to Lisa Laskow Lahey, it's stated affirmatively. It implicates you, meaning it's on you, Laura Camien. Your actions, behaviors, and choices can get you to this goal, not the actions, behaviors, or choices of others. It's important to you. Like one to five, it's going to be like a four or a five in importance. You feel a sense of urgency around it. So if it's something you want to make, it you'd regret it if you didn't make it and share it with the world in this lifetime. It would excite you personally and be a big deal if you were able to make big gains on this goal. It should not be something that would require a complete personality or skill transplant.

So, Laura, if your goal is to become a first chair violinist in a major orchestra in the next 12 months, and you've never picked up a violin in your life, which to my knowledge you have not, that might be a tough one.

[30:05] Laura Camien: I would shit myself if you just pulled out a violin and you were like.

[30:08] Susan Blackwell: Actually, Susan, I've been practicing the clitter clutter of a violin.

[30:13] Laura Camien: No, but I did. It's funny that you said violin because I did study. That's a really strong word for it. I did try to learn the violin, but at our first recital, I in first grade, I hid in the bathroom until it was over.

[30:26] Susan Blackwell: Oh yeah.

[30:28] Laura Camien: Oh, sweet little baby kibbs. It wasn't really a recital. It was just like this was gonna be the first night you show your parents how well you're doing. Oh, and I had to go to the bathroom and stayed there. Never came back. I had no idea. That was the end of my violin career. But I could pick it back up. It's not too late for me to be a prodigy.

[30:48] Susan Blackwell: If you want to name that as your goal, rock on.

[30:51] Laura Camien: Okay, so super bonus. It could be something that's important to someone around you or others would value it highly if you got better at this or if you made this thing.

[31:05] Susan Blackwell: Well, I wrote down my thing. It doesn't, that one doesn't apply.

[31:09] Laura Camien: Okay, that's okay. I still wrote something down.

[31:11] Susan Blackwell: Okay, do you want to say what it is?

[31:12] Laura Camien: Yeah, I do.

[31:13] Susan Blackwell: So excited.

[31:15] Laura Camien: I am going to give myself the gift of getting more rest. I'm going to get more rest by going to bed by midnight every night.

[31:27] Susan Blackwell: Okay. This is a strong behavior change for you.

[31:31] Laura Camien: It would be even stronger if I said by 11.

[31:34] Susan Blackwell: Do you want to go for it just for the sake of this exercise?

[31:36] Laura Camien: Oh, should I push myself?

[31:38] Susan Blackwell: Yes, I'll do. I'll say by 11.

[31:41] Laura Camien: Tell me if I'm wrong, but what I hear in your voice is that you don't want to fail at your goal and you're afraid if you say 11.

[31:48] Susan Blackwell: Like tonight I'll fail at it because I'm like, oh, there's some stuff I want to watch tonight. This is over time. This is going to be over time. So you don't have to succeed tonight. Okay. This is not a task that you're going to do. I'm going to move my bedtime to 11 p.m. Yeah. Okay over the course of some period of time. Okay, great. Great. Okay. So that's column one, your commitment or your improvement goal. And you're gonna write in there that your commitment or improvement goal is going to be to shift your bedtime to a 11 p.m. consistently.

[32:19] Laura Camien: Yeah. Yeah.

[32:21] Susan Blackwell: Okay, great. In column two, you can write at the top of this, doing slash not doing instead. So according to Lisa Laskow Lahey, in column two, you're gonna want to take a fearless inventory of all that you are doing, Laura Camien or not doing that works against your column one goal. So these are gonna be concrete behaviors that get in your way, including self-talk, not so much emotions or mind states, but like concrete things that you're doing or not doing that get in the way or work against your column one goal. You don't have to worry about why. This is not where you're gonna write down what you're gonna do to accomplish that column one goal, but make sure everything that you want to put in column two works against that column one goal. So what do you just what do you got? What do you think?

[33:15] Laura Camien: Okay, so off the top of my head, yeah. I like to watch my stories, watch my programs late at night. So I I've got watching TV on the list. I also have my um computer, like because I will think even at 10 30 at night, I will think I could get a couple more things done today. Uh-huh. I could get a couple, I could just, you know, I have energy, I could do it. Yeah. Um, so I do that. I play canasta on my phone with people in other countries.

[33:48] Susan Blackwell: It sounds like a party.

[33:49] Laura Camien: See, good things happen. Good things happen in the hours, you know, from 11 to 2, but I need to I need to pair them back. But those are the types of things we're talking about.

[33:58] Susan Blackwell: Got it. Okay. Lisa Laskow Lahey noted something about this column too. She stresses that for most of us, when we get to the end of this column, we immediately go into problem solving. And maybe taking an action-oriented problem solving approach by work, but for most of us, these column two behaviors are serving a really good purpose, right? So in your case, they're providing you with some, I think probably pleasure and uh escape and rejuvenation. It's like me time, it's your yeah, it's me time. Absolutely.

[34:36] Laura Camien: So she says if we approach this with curiosity during this phase, this column two phase, instead of jumping into problem solving.

[34:45] Susan Blackwell: It's a way to begin developing new circuitry in the brain.

[34:50] Laura Camien: Yeah, I want you to say that again because I think this is the real departure point where other people might be like, uh-huh, yeah, I've made this, I've made this goal, I've made it, I understand what I'm doing. But then they go to problem solving and they go to like and I willpower, and here's my new schedule, and I'm gonna do this every day.

[35:10] Susan Blackwell: Totally. So this is that juncture you're saying, let's take a left instead of going right.

[35:16] Laura Camien: Correct.

[35:17] Susan Blackwell: Let us remain open and curious. Let's not jump to problem solving and let us trust the process that is more nuanced. It's gonna take more time, it's gonna go deeper. But what they are aiming at here is not this new year's change model, it is more lasting behavior changes.

[35:38] Laura Camien: So instead of just jumping to problem solving, you're right. I think you're right, Laura. I think this is where most of us are just like, and here's what I'm gonna do about it. I can take it from here. I know what to do.

[35:49] Susan Blackwell: Yeah, exactly.

[35:51] Laura Camien: Yeah.

[35:52] Susan Blackwell: So I think maybe at this moment, it might be a good time to thank ourselves for all those things in column two that have kept us safe or have provided us with pleasure and Laura time.

[36:08] Laura Camien: It's made sure that I've had me time because yes, clearly during the rest of the day, I've not scheduled to quote our dear Juliet Gray, I've not scheduled myself into my schedule.

[36:19] Susan Blackwell: Yes, and so I tack it on at night. These activities have made sure that I get some time that feels like it's just for me.

[36:26] Laura Camien: Okay, great. You're doing great. So this brings us to column three, okay, which is what uh they call hidden competing commitments, and also nestled within column three, we should draw a little box, and we're gonna name that our worry box.

[36:44] Susan Blackwell: So, what do we put in our worry box? Lisa Laskow Lahey encourages us to imagine ourselves engaged in the opposite of your column two behavior. So, whatever you're doing or not doing in that column two behavior, we were going to engage in the opposite and really picture yourself engaging in the opposite of that. And she asks, like, what do you feel or think?

[37:07] Laura Camien: What concerns, doubts, anxieties, and fears do you experience when you think about engaging in the opposite of that column two behavior?

[37:18] Susan Blackwell: Well, Suze, what I want to say is that it isn't just that watching TV, playing Canasta, being on my computer is a problem. It's that I'm doing it at that time of night.

[37:26] Laura Camien: Yeah.

[37:28] Susan Blackwell: So the opposite would be these things would take place during my regularly scheduled hours during the day. So if that's where we are, then the worries that come up for me by scheduling myself into my days that I will not accomplish enough to be pleasing to other people. I will not be able to deliver to you, Suze, although you never put pressure on me. But in my mind, it's always been like a boss or an employer or an outside influence that I think values me really for my output and what I get done.

[38:06] Laura Camien: Yeah.

[38:06] Susan Blackwell: And so my worry would be if I schedule myself into my days, I won't get enough done to please other people.

[38:15] Laura Camien: Uh-huh. That's really awesome.

[38:19] Susan Blackwell: And gives you the ug, which she talks about throughout her book and throughout the conversation with Brene Brown, like really getting to the feeling, like getting to the uh of it all.

[38:28] Laura Camien: Yeah.

[38:29] Susan Blackwell: Which I just heard come out of you. I just felt it.

[38:32] Laura Camien: Oh gosh.

[38:33] Susan Blackwell: Yeah. So these things in your worry box become the raw material for our column three commitments. And our column three commitments, according to Leahy, she says we artfully protect ourselves from these worries and fears by creating these column three commitments.

[38:55] Laura Camien: And examples of these are often phrased in the negative. And examples of these include things like, I'm have a commitment to not feeling um stupid, or I have a commitment to not seeming like I don't bring value to this relationship.

[39:11] Susan Blackwell: Well, is this phrased appropriately if I say I'm committed to not letting anyone down?

[39:17] Laura Camien: Yes.

[39:20] Susan Blackwell: Brilliant, brilliant, brilliant, brilliant, brilliant. The second thing I wrote is not written in the negative, so I'm not sure, but it's I'm committed to putting other people's needs ahead of my own.

[39:30] Laura Camien: I think you know what? Let's go with it.

[39:31] Susan Blackwell: Okay. Let's go with that. I because I feel like there's something true in that that came up for you.

[39:37] Laura Camien: Yeah.

[39:37] Susan Blackwell: And I feel like with all frameworks, we must allow again, I'm not the expert on this, Lisa Laskow Lahey and Bob Keegan are, but I feel like it's great to let those things come up and be. So this brings us to column four, which they call big assumptions. And according to Leahy, you can get to these big assumptions in column four by asking yourself, what assumptions must I be making that would keep me captive or give rise to my column three commitment.

[40:08] Laura Camien: So that God, the sounds, Laura, the pain.

[40:12] Susan Blackwell: Sorry, I'm just like, oh, because the answers are coming in very clearly. The signal is strong.

[40:20] Laura Camien: So usually this starts with a phrase like, I assume.

[40:24] Susan Blackwell: Yes. So how would you end that sentence?

[40:27] Laura Camien: I assume people will only like me if I'm taking care of their needs. I assume people will only like me if I am producing for them or to their benefit.

[40:38] Susan Blackwell: Yeah. So things in this column get to the generator of why you protect yourself and why we all protect ourselves in the ways that we do. Once you have surfaced this, Laura, and I have to pause and just thank you for your candor and for doing this little experiment with me because you're doing great. I have to thank you for this therapy session. And everyone, it's nice to have you along for the ride. I hope you all are playing along at home. Um, Lisa Laskow Lahey says once you've surfaced these big assumptions, you'll be able to research and question these big assumptions with clear vision.

[41:19] Susan Blackwell: If with clear examination we can see that these big assumptions aren't necessarily so accurate, then we may be able to begin taking the foot off the brake and begin to engage in different behaviors than those column two behaviors.

[41:37] Laura Camien: Yeah.

[41:38] Susan Blackwell: And engage in our column one commitments in a real way. So here's some useful guidelines for this column four. And I know that this right now, if you're not playing along with us, this can sound just like a big math equation. But if you are playing along with this, this may make sense. Column four makes your column three hidden competing commitments necessary. These big assumptions connect back to your fears and take the fear deeper.

[42:07] Laura Camien: So when you heard Laura Camien make that sound, that was her connecting back to her fears and taking them deeper.

[42:16] Susan Blackwell: These big assumptions usually have a bad conclusion for you, Laura. These big assumptions can feel real and powerful, even if you know they're wrong. And they limit your world. Also, I would like to say that it feels like they can be old.

[42:30] Laura Camien: Oh my God.

[42:36] Susan Blackwell: Like this is old.

[42:37] Laura Camien: So old. I've I've like revamped my life and the people around me, this isn't true.

[42:44] Susan Blackwell: Yeah. And so it's so interesting to look at this and realize like, I'm not really working on not watching TV at 11 p.m. Yeah. I'm really working on soothing myself and knowing that it is safe to I am loved and cared for regardless of my productivity. I'm loved and cared for, even if I put myself first or take care of myself or schedule myself into my day.

[43:09] Laura Camien: Yeah, that does not take away from the love and care that people have for me. I mean, it's bananas to realize like, oh my gosh, we are so fixated on a thing. And we're like, I'm just trying to fix this behavior rather than that assumption.

[43:26] Susan Blackwell: Yes. And the thing I love about this work so much is I've been playing around full disclosure, I've been playing around with my own version of this. And you can run this immunity to change work that this framework that Leahy and Keegan have developed. Anything that you want to make a significant behavioral change or you want to set a goal around, you can run it through this work and the things that it starts to reveal, these more nuanced things under the surface that if you don't, I'm sorry I'm repeating myself, but if you don't do a little bit of excavating and pay attention to, you can have the best intentions and all the willpower in the world.

[44:09] Laura Camien: But Susan, I don't know. Maybe you did know this about yourself, maybe you knew it and forgot it about yourself, but I don't know if you were working on changing your bedtime that you would have been able to draw that line to something that may get it be a counter commitment that I have in place is around making sure that I'm pleasing others.

[44:30] Susan Blackwell: And you know what I mean? If I'm honest, I think I probably would have said, I used to believe that people only, you know, valued me for what I produced and my output. I don't believe that anymore. And I wouldn't have realized, like some part of me still thinks that.

[44:48] Laura Camien: Yeah.

[44:48] Susan Blackwell: Or I wouldn't be behaving in this way. I wouldn't be saving all the me time for 11 p.m. at night. I would feel safe and secure scheduling in time throughout the day to take care of me and what makes me happy.

[45:06] Laura Camien: Yeah. I want to take a moment to honor and acknowledge that there can be a whole lot of self protective stuff going on inside us that may be working at cross purposes with our stated goals around creativity. And these counter commitments, as Laura was just saying, may have been in place for I don't know, decades or so. And it takes time, according to the research that Leahy and Keegan have done, it takes time. Sometimes it can take 12 months of dedicated work to change your mind and your heart about things. Sometimes it can take weeks to do so. But if you don't address what's going on under the surface, 12 months or 12 weeks will still pass, and those unconscious counter commitments will still be operating, keeping you stuck.

[46:01] Susan Blackwell: But just with compassion.

[46:03] Laura Camien: That's right.

[46:03] Susan Blackwell: To do all of this work with a great deal of compassion towards yourself because there's a good reason you put those things in place, Laura, to keep you safe.

[46:14] Laura Camien: 100%. I completely agree. And we all have our own version of that.

[46:25] Susan Blackwell: Because it seems like all of this would require kindness and grace towards ourselves. This is not like a damn it, Laura, why can't you stop watching TV at 11 p.m.? Like a reason to beat up on myself, but rather a uh question, a curiosity. Why does it feel necessary to start watching television at 11 p.m. when I know that rest is what I need right now?

[46:55] Laura Camien: Right.

[46:55] Susan Blackwell: And to dig deeper and deeper and deeper of like, oh, baby girl inside of me. That's why it feels important. And it feels like it's the only time that you can do that. And I, you know, to really hear that with such kindness and understanding.

[47:12] Laura Camien: Yeah.

[47:13] Susan Blackwell: Rather than self punishment or shame.

[47:16] Laura Camien: Yes to that. And also I'm reflecting back on something that you said earlier when we were in our column two, what we're doing and not doing that runs counter to that, that change we want to make. And you said this is where we typically kind of like fuck ourselves because we go into like action and willpower.

[47:28] Susan Blackwell: Muscle it.

[47:37] Laura Camien: Yeah. Muscle it. And I just really think that these hidden competing counter commitments have such deep roots. Some of them going back to when we were kids.

[47:49] Susan Blackwell: That's right.

[47:50] Laura Camien: Like it is going to take real time. And what they talk about in their work and in their book is not going for the task. So in your case, Laura, the task would be by hook or by crook, I'm going to muscle myself into bed with screens down by 11 p.m. So that would be a completing a task. What they suggest is something more like a series of research experiments where you're sort of like setting yourself up for a little bit of research. You know, if I do this, if I change these factors, I'm going to run the experiment. But it's not to complete a task, it's to start collecting research on yourself. And they set it up really beautifully in the book because you track through with some sort of case studies throughout.

[48:46] Susan Blackwell: Yeah. And they give very specific examples about how, and you see it, you're like, yeah, I can see how that would create lasting change over time.

[48:55] Laura Camien: Wow.

[48:56] Susan Blackwell: Yeah. This is incredible. It's really incredible work. And how lucky am I that you have learned about this? I think that I have done either around column two, what are you doing, not doing? I've seized onto that and tried to just muscle myself into change with that sort of willpower New Year's model. And I think that I've also gotten to a place around about I don't know what column. I'm gonna say even the final column, like um, big assumptions.

[49:30] Susan Blackwell: And I've been like, God, I don't know what to do about that.

[49:33] Laura Camien: Uh-huh.

[49:33] Susan Blackwell: Like just sort of like bailed out because I'm like, well, I don't know. That's my big assumption. Dun dun dun dun dun, the end.

[49:40] Susan Blackwell: And I love the option of setting up not just tasks that you're gonna like complete, but kind of like running a series of research experiments on yourself to bring about more lasting change.

[49:53] Susan Blackwell: God, I feel like I've repeated myself four times. But as you can see, I'm still integrating all of this into my very own brain.

[50:00] Laura Camien: And so are we.

[50:01] Susan Blackwell: So this is great. I'm to I'll take it. You know what I actually think would be fun, Laura, is one of a what do we make of it would be I'd love to set some time aside and do some quiet work to just map this out for ourselves, and then you and I can compare notes with each other.

[50:18] Laura Camien: I love it.

[50:19] Laura Camien: And kind of like run our research and report back to each other.

[50:22] Susan Blackwell: Yeah, I would love that because it would be so fun to then just as we make discoveries, you know, we'll continue over time to report into each other. You know what I discovered was this, and yeah, I noticed this. I tried this, but this happened.

[50:22] Laura Camien: It would be so great to know what you're working on and what I'm working on.

[50:39] Susan Blackwell: Oh, I love that. Suze again, I say, I'll repeat myself. How lucky am I?

[50:45] Susan Blackwell: How lucky am I? This is awesome.

[50:48] Susan Blackwell: So on Brene Brown's podcast, when she was rumbling with this work herself, she likened it to the moment in The Empire Strikes Back, if you know that movie, uh, where Luke is with Yoda in the swamp and he goes into the dark side cave to face his fear, and his fear is embodied by Darth Vader.

[51:07] Susan Blackwell: So they spar with lightsabers, and Luke cuts off Darth Vader's head. Then Darth Vader's mask crackles away to reveal that the face inside of Darth Vader's mask is Luke.

[51:19] Susan Blackwell: It is Luke. And so Brene Brown was reflecting on how we are often creating and perpetrating the blocks that keep us from our deepest desires.

[51:31] Laura Camien: Isn't that what we mean when we say it's an inside job?

[51:31] Susan Blackwell: It's an inside job. It's us working to protect ourselves or keep ourselves safe, but it's us.

[51:42] Laura Camien: Yeah.

[51:43] Laura Camien: That scene is based on the work of Joseph Campbell, the Cave You Fear to Enter May Hold, the treasure you seek or insight about how you are working at cross purposes against yourself.

[51:54] Susan Blackwell: You are your own Darth Vader.

[51:56] Laura Camien: You are your own Darth Vader.

[51:58] Susan Blackwell: And your Darth Vader will not let you until now go to bed at 11 o'clock.

[52:07] Laura Camien: Watch out now, though.

[52:09] Laura Camien: He wants to keep you awake.

[52:12] Susan Blackwell: That's a terrible Darth Vader.

[52:14] Susan Blackwell: So I just love this book, Immunity to Change by Lisa Laskow Lahey and Robert Kegan. And it provides step by step guidance for ways you can identify what changes you would like to undertake and a research-based approach to implementing lasting change.

[52:31] Susan Blackwell: It is very nuanced work. It requires real work, but I feel like thanks to these researchers slash authors, we have this great framework to give change a fighting chance.

[52:45] Laura Camien: Oh my gosh, everybody, I can't recommend it highly enough.

[52:48] Laura Camien: I'm feeling buzzy. You know, that like just incredible feeling when you're like a little new neurons are popping off in my brain and a greater understanding of something.

[53:02] Susan Blackwell: It's really wonderful.

[53:04] Laura Camien: The best. Thank you so much for this spark, Suze. This was so great.

[53:07] Susan Blackwell: I have to point it all back to uh Lisa and Bob getting it done up there at Harvard.

[53:14] Laura Camien: Lisa and Bob, we thank you.

[53:16] Susan Blackwell: So what do we make of it? If you're Lisa and Bob, it's your life's work.

[53:21] Laura Camien: Yeah.

[53:22] Laura Camien: This has been their life's work to create research and frameworks and curriculum and consulting practices around lasting change.

[53:32] Susan Blackwell: And I'm very thankful to them. So I'm sure you're not listening, but wherever you are, thank you.

[53:37] Susan Blackwell: If you're an artist or a creative, you may want to commit to change and utilize a framework like this to navigate that change.

[53:46] Susan Blackwell: So I encourage you to think about what changes you'd like to see in your approach to creativity. Would you like to be more prolific? Would you like to be more committed to your creative practice? Would you like to be a better collaborator? Would you like to be more fearless in the work that you make and share? Would you like to identify old narratives that may be working against those potential changes?

[54:09] Susan Blackwell: You can do this work solo by reading and working through immunity to change and actually doing the work.

[54:17] Laura Camien: Or you could do it like Laura and I are going to do it with fellow creatives.

[54:21] Susan Blackwell: Keep us on track. If you're making something, you may want to look at your work and make sure that it exhibits change.

[54:31] Laura Camien: In the words of Bob Krackhauer, I'd like to see I'd like to see a little more change from beginning to end.

[54:37] Susan Blackwell: Suze, I can I can add to that?

[54:39] Laura Camien: Yes.

[54:40] Laura Camien: Like when you, especially if you are writing characters, I personally love characters who believe they're telling the truth, but we can see that they're not.

[54:50] Laura Camien: Like we can see something that they can't see.

[54:52] Susan Blackwell: Yeah.

[54:53] Laura Camien: And so this framework is really interesting when you have a character who states a goal, but we can see they have a competing belief based on like their behaviors.

[54:53] Laura Camien: They have a competing belief that is keeping them from that goal.

[55:08] Susan Blackwell: Yes.

[55:08] Susan Blackwell: And what we get to watch is them discover what that is and how they're gonna overcome that.

[55:14] Laura Camien: But it's really great character development work too.

[55:18] Susan Blackwell: I love that.

[55:19] Susan Blackwell: I mean, just like on a simple, super simple level. Like you see any any rom com um, a character who says they want love and deeper connection, and then everything about their life is like, oh, they have a belief system that they're terrified of love.

[55:35] Laura Camien: People will hurt them.

[55:36] Susan Blackwell: This is what I wanted to circle back to patterns.

[55:38] Laura Camien: Yes, patterns, patterns, patterns.

[55:40] Susan Blackwell: Yes.

[55:41] Laura Camien: Yes, yes.

[55:42] Susan Blackwell: Exactly. This work is pattern-changing work.

[55:45] Laura Camien: It is pattern-changing work.

[55:47] Susan Blackwell: It absolutely is. And so it's like us looking at ourselves as characters.

[55:52] Laura Camien: Like, what is that pattern that we're hanging on to that is keeping us from reaching our goal?

[55:58] Susan Blackwell: And even deeper, why is it there? You know, what is the belief system that is propping it up? How can we get to the bottom of it?

[56:07] Laura Camien: Love that, Laura Camien.

[56:10] Susan Blackwell: Another what do we make of it? I think it's interesting to observe when an artist chooses either not to show change or to show minimal change.

[56:21] Laura Camien: And I think an example of this is John Steinbeck's The Grapes of Wrath.

[56:26] Susan Blackwell: We have a character like Lenny, who almost acts as a constant.

[56:32] Laura Camien: So he's sort of like just sort of like, tell me about the Rabbit's George, tell me about the Rabbit's George, tell me about the Rabbit's George.

[56:40] Susan Blackwell: And while it could be argued that he doesn't evolve much at all, the character, all the characters around him, change largely in relation to him.

[56:51] Laura Camien: And I think it can also be argued that he does show change, like he goes from sort of his lovable, placid self to agitated.

[57:01] Susan Blackwell: So we do see change like that.

[57:03] Laura Camien: But I think it's really fun to also play around with if you are a maker, if you're a storyteller, where where do we not see change in characters and how that can be frustrating?

[57:16] Susan Blackwell: It can be spoiler alert, deadly.

[57:18] Laura Camien: It can be illuminating because sometimes you have a character who represents life without that pattern.

[57:26] Susan Blackwell: Yes.

[57:26] Laura Camien: So if you're showing a pattern, like a cultural pattern or a societal pattern that everybody is this way, and then we have a character like like Elf who shows up and is not that pattern.

[57:42] Susan Blackwell: Yeah.

[57:43] Laura Camien: You know what I mean?

[57:44] Susan Blackwell: Um so sometimes it's the absence of it, yeah, that helps us to it illuminates the pattern that uh that others are trapped by.

[57:53] Laura Camien: Yeah, and it's almost like the other characters, like in their reaction to it, they bump up against it.

[57:59] Susan Blackwell: That's right.

[57:59] Laura Camien: And often they are changed by it.

[58:02] Susan Blackwell: By it, exactly.

[58:03] Laura Camien: Yeah.

[58:04] Laura Camien: By that person's, I wouldn't even say unwillingness to change, but the fact that that person does not change under the weight of all these other things, it can change others around them.

[58:15] Susan Blackwell: I'll just end with this.

[58:16] Susan Blackwell: I think it's Cheryl Strayed in her teachings, talks about the invisible last sentence of every great story, every great movie is and nothing was ever the same again.

[58:16] Laura Camien: Oh yes.

[58:16] Susan Blackwell: So good.

[58:16] Laura Camien: The invisible last sentence.

[58:38] Susan Blackwell: And I think again, it's another way of saying show us change.

[58:38] Laura Camien: Show us change.

[58:45] Susan Blackwell: Like we to get to that sentence, you have to have shown us change.

[58:50] Laura Camien: And again, without that change, you have a tragedy.

[58:52] Susan Blackwell: And you, the tragedy version of that invisible sentence is, and nothing will ever change.

[58:58] Laura Camien: In this land, in this world, yeah, and nothing will ever change, which is devastating when we see that.

[59:05] Susan Blackwell: But if you've shown us change, you get us to, and nothing was ever the same again.

[59:10] Laura Camien: I like to think that in regards to your bedtime after this conversation, and nothing was ever the same again, Laura Camilla.

[59:10] Susan Blackwell: And nothing was ever the same again.

[59:21] Laura Camien: Zeus, thank you.

[59:22] Laura Camien: If change was that easy, but we're gonna we're gonna work on it.

[59:25] Susan Blackwell: This will be the line of demarcation.

[59:27] Susan Blackwell: It'll be like my life before that podcast episode with Susan talking me through that.

[59:31] Laura Camien: Right and my life after.

[59:33] Susan Blackwell: I love it. This was amazing. Thank you, Lisa.

[59:36] Susan Blackwell: Thank you, Bob. Thank you, Laura, for being so game.

[59:38] Laura Camien: Oh friends, that's it.

[59:40] Susan Blackwell: This episode of The Spark File was made on the lands of the Lenape people.

[59:45] Susan Blackwell: And as always, we hope it put another bunch of sparks in your file.

[59:48] Laura Camien: If there is a spark that you'd like us to explore, or if you'd like to learn more about how to coach with us to bring your creative ideas to life, email us at thesparkfile at gmail.com, or you can submit us little inquiries, love letters, mash notes through our website, thesparkfile.com.

[1:00:07] Susan Blackwell: We will even add to that list.

[1:00:09] Laura Camien: We will take your feedback.

[1:00:12] Susan Blackwell: But to give us feedback, you know the price of admission.

[1:00:15] Laura Camien: First, you have to share a creative risk that you have taken recently.

[1:00:19] Susan Blackwell: You can follow us on social at the Sparkfile and be sure to subscribe, rate, and five-star review this podcast.

[1:00:25] Laura Camien: It really, really helps other listeners to find us.

[1:00:28] Susan Blackwell: Also, if you like this podcast, we hope you'll share it with people that you love.

[1:00:32] Laura Camien: And if you didn't like it, change to a different podcast.

[1:00:37] Susan Blackwell: You sons of beasts.

[1:00:40] Laura Camien: Change it.

[1:00:41] Laura Camien: If something lights you up, friends, if it gets your creative sparks flying, if it just, I don't know, illuminates something for you.

[1:00:50] Susan Blackwell: Just know that we are writing you a forever permission slip to make that thing that has been knocking at your door.

[1:00:57] Laura Camien: It is your turn to take that spark and fan it into a flame.

[1:01:02] Susan Blackwell: You know you gotta take it and make it make it, friends.

[1:01:09] Laura Camien: Time to face the strength.

[1:01:12] Susan Blackwell: Changes.

[1:01:14] Laura Camien: God, they're rolling over in their graves.

[1:01:16] Susan Blackwell: Yeah.

[1:01:17] Susan Blackwell: When I bope into something that inspires me, I dump it in the spark files.

[1:01:27] Laura Camien: Could be something that I wanna make or how I wanna be.

[1:01:32] Susan Blackwell: I pump it in my spark files.

[1:01:37] Laura Camien: I jump into my spark files.

[1:01:41] Susan Blackwell: Let's open up the spark fire.