This transcript was automatically generated and might contain errors.

[0:37] Laura Camien: Welcome to The Spark File, your one stop fortress of solitude for creative inspiration.

[0:41] Susan Blackwell: I'm Laura Camien and I'm Susan Blackwell.

[0:44] Laura Camien: If you're an OG sparkler, welcome back. If you're joining us for the first time, welcome to you.

[0:49] Susan Blackwell: But you may be asking yourself, what exactly is a spark file? Where do I get one? What do I file in it? These are such good questions.

[0:56] Laura Camien: We do have answers.

[0:57] Susan Blackwell: We do. A spark file is a place where you consistently collect all your inspirations and your fascinations.

[1:03] Laura Camien: But here's the deal. We're makers. We're making all kinds of things.

[1:07] Susan Blackwell: If you're anything like us and you're making stuff all the time, or you want to be making stuff all the time, you know that the wellspring of inspiration can run a little dry.

[1:15] Laura Camien: So we're on the lookout for fresh ideas, images, and inspiration that spark our creativity and pique our curiosity.

[1:22] Susan Blackwell: Things that inspire us to get up off of our asses and make things like this podcast.

[1:28] Laura Camien: Or a series of books that inspire and seduce an entire generation.

[1:33] Susan Blackwell: Ooh la la.

[1:35] Laura Camien: Or a system for attuning with your inherent creative rhythms.

[1:40] Susan Blackwell: Nice. Every episode, we're gonna reach into our spark files and exchange some sparks.

[1:45] Laura Camien: And from time to time, we're gonna talk to some folks who spark us too.

[1:48] Susan Blackwell: And if you're not careful, you might just get into creative sync.

[1:52] Laura Camien: So without further ado, let's open up the Sparks File.

[1:58] Susan Blackwell: Blackwell.

[1:59] Laura Camien: Baby Cam.

[2:00] Susan Blackwell: Hi.

[2:01] Laura Camien: Hi.

[2:03] Susan Blackwell: Oh, Blackwell, what's your favorite?

[2:09] Laura Camien: The day we record.

[2:10] Susan Blackwell: Um, excited.

[2:12] Laura Camien: I was gonna say that um I have a little preface to my spark.

[2:17] Susan Blackwell: Like I usually don't talk about things that spark me like in an angry way.

[2:20] Laura Camien: Oh, you're getting into it.

[2:21] Susan Blackwell: Well, not entirely, but m what like the beginning of my spark, I was sparked by this anger and then soothed by my spark, you know, later.

[2:32] Laura Camien: But yeah.

[2:34] Susan Blackwell: So you're just putting me on alert.

[2:35] Laura Camien: I'm putting you on alert in case you're like, whoa, attitude, where's that coming from?

[2:39] Susan Blackwell: It's coming from being sparked in a bit of a dark way.

[2:42] Laura Camien: You know, sometimes what we call that?

[2:44] Susan Blackwell: What?

[2:45] Laura Camien: P N A.

[2:46] Susan Blackwell: Passionate, not angry.

[2:48] Laura Camien: Meaning you're not angry at me.

[2:49] Susan Blackwell: Oh no.

[2:50] Laura Camien: You might be angry at your spark source.

[2:52] Susan Blackwell: You might be passionate about the subject matter.

[2:54] Laura Camien: That's right. P N A.

[2:56] Susan Blackwell: P and A.

[2:56] Laura Camien: Passionate, not angry.

[2:57] Susan Blackwell: A passionate, not angry.

[2:59] Laura Camien: At me.

[2:59] Susan Blackwell: You're angry at something in your spark.

[3:01] Laura Camien: Yeah, yeah.

[3:02] Susan Blackwell: Do you want to get it?

[3:03] Laura Camien: Yeah, I'll totally get it.

[3:05] Susan Blackwell: Um totally. Is there anything else we need to say to the good people?

[3:08] Laura Camien: The good people, thanks for being with us.

[3:10] Susan Blackwell: We're happy you're here.

[3:11] Laura Camien: We are.

[3:12] Susan Blackwell: Now I'm gonna tell you something that annoys the crap out of me.

[3:14] Laura Camien: Cammy's about to spit fire.

[3:16] Susan Blackwell: Yeah, I'm p like I don't know.

[3:18] Laura Camien: I mean, I I'm just gonna say it really bothers me when women that I know don't want to be associated with feminism or with women's rights in general, just in a general sense, like a little bit of like a poo-pooing of that, or it's just like ew, I don't want to be what in proximity of that.

[3:40] Susan Blackwell: I know some.

[3:41] Laura Camien: You know I know some.

[3:42] Susan Blackwell: I've come across some in my life, you know.

[3:45] Laura Camien: Um, I'm pretty easygoing, really, and typically in accepting of other people's beliefs.

[3:50] Susan Blackwell: You are.

[3:51] Laura Camien: I am, I think.

[3:52] Susan Blackwell: Um, but this is the particular point of tension for me.

[3:55] Laura Camien: Like it genuinely makes me angry.

[3:57] Susan Blackwell: I understand that it very likely stems from some internalized misogyny.

[4:03] Laura Camien: I think it is cowardly beyond cowardly.

[4:09] Susan Blackwell: I mean, I understand if you don't um if you're not interested in becoming like a full-time activist.

[4:15] Laura Camien: Yeah.

[4:15] Susan Blackwell: But it really sparks me when a woman can't acknowledge that the only reason that she has the rights that she has today, like if she has a job, if she has a bank account, if she goes to vote on election day, if she inherits money, if she has her own podcast, if she wears pants.

[4:33] Laura Camien: Yes, Emma Snodgrass, yes.

[4:36] Susan Blackwell: It's it is only because there was a woman who came before us who had like 10 times the amount of courage and put herself on the line.

[4:44] Laura Camien: A million times.

[4:46] Susan Blackwell: Right?

[4:46] Laura Camien: Yes.

[4:46] Susan Blackwell: So that we can all enjoy the rights that we have now.

[4:48] Laura Camien: So I get like worked up about that.

[4:51] Susan Blackwell: It seems to me it's a at I guess at its at the very least, out of touch.

[4:56] Laura Camien: Like it's just out of touch with what came before you.

[5:00] Susan Blackwell: That's out of touch with what it could be and it could return to if you're not careful about it.

[5:05] Laura Camien: That's exactly right.

[5:06] Susan Blackwell: It seems I mean, I told you I saw the opposite of woke is it seems asleep.

[5:12] Laura Camien: I s hashtag asleep.

[5:14] Susan Blackwell: I saw the hashtag um Restore Patriarchy this week.

[5:19] Laura Camien: I told you about that, right?

[5:20] Susan Blackwell: Yes.

[5:21] Laura Camien: And I don't really want to give it any credence or energize it.

[5:21] Susan Blackwell: Energize it.

[5:25] Laura Camien: But it was a really not subtle reminder that there are people out there who would happily remove the rights that women have gained over the last hundred years if they had the chance.

[5:36] Susan Blackwell: And I do know, like I have come across these women in my life, and maybe it's less so now because I think collectively we've expanded our awareness.

[5:46] Laura Camien: But I also think like a younger generation of artists are coming up who are fearless and not worried about telling, quote, women's stories or black stories or transgender stories.

[5:55] Susan Blackwell: They're telling stories of the human experience and busting through these boundaries.

[6:00] Laura Camien: That I think even in our lifetime, you know, I've had women years ago criticize plays I've written because they were about women.

[6:09] Susan Blackwell: As they were like, you know, it's like women's stories.

[6:13] Laura Camien: Um I've had friends just sort of poo-poo the concept of women's rights of like, uh, you know, I don't know, like we have them, can we just shut up about them?

[6:24] Susan Blackwell: Sort of feeling.

[6:25] Laura Camien: Easy for you to say, lady.

[6:27] Susan Blackwell: But it's a very privileged position to brush them off as if we don't need to pay attention to them anymore.

[6:32] Laura Camien: It is.

[6:33] Susan Blackwell: And the fact is, like, we can only sit comfortably at home or at your place of employment thanks to the hard work of stronger, braver women who came before us.

[6:42] Laura Camien: Agreed.

[6:43] Susan Blackwell: And one of those women is a woman named Colette.

[6:48] Laura Camien: Do you know much about Colette?

[6:50] Susan Blackwell: I know of the existence of this person, yes, but not much more.

[6:54] Laura Camien: Okay.

[6:55] Susan Blackwell: I feel like this podcast should be called All the Shit.

[6:58] Laura Camien: I don't know.

[6:59] Susan Blackwell: Like, I feel like this should be something I should know.

[7:03] Laura Camien: I feel this way all the time with your sparks as well.

[7:08] Susan Blackwell: And it's like I know we stuff we know everything.

[7:10] Laura Camien: I know we can't know everything.

[7:12] Susan Blackwell: But I also think it's a testament to my fair to midland education.

[7:18] Laura Camien: And my struggles learning, frankly.

[7:21] Susan Blackwell: Like I think I've said this to you before.

[7:22] Laura Camien: I don't know if I've said it on the podcast, but I feel like I didn't learn how to learn.

[7:27] Susan Blackwell: Yeah.

[7:28] Laura Camien: Until I was in my mid-20s.

[7:32] Susan Blackwell: Yeah.

[7:33] Laura Camien: That's a lot of lost time for learning.

[7:35] Susan Blackwell: I agree.

[7:37] Laura Camien: That's true of a lot of people in this country who, you know, were we were just taught one way.

[7:42] Susan Blackwell: And as your one of your earlier sparks, rejected princesses, I think mentioned, like, there's just so many women, like, even if you had been paying attention in class that we didn't learn about.

[7:55] Susan Blackwell: You're right.

[7:56] Laura Camien: I don't also don't think I was paying attention in class.

[7:59] Susan Blackwell: Well, then that's on you.

[8:00] Laura Camien: But I do pay attention when you're talking about it.

[8:02] Susan Blackwell: Thank God I was here to tell you.

[8:06] Laura Camien: So, Colette, this woman lived an extraordinary life.

[8:11] Susan Blackwell: And she truly pushed the conversation of gender rights forward.

[8:15] Laura Camien: She was on the forefront of a sexual revolution in France, supported transgender rights as well.

[8:22] Susan Blackwell: She was a writer, a journalist, a mime, and an actress.

[8:27] Laura Camien: Well, remember that's what they did before actresses became actresses.

[8:31] Susan Blackwell: They were they were mimes.

[8:33] Laura Camien: Yeah.

[8:34] Susan Blackwell: Literal mimes.

[8:35] Laura Camien: Absolutely.

[8:36] Susan Blackwell: Before like the art form evolved into something else.

[8:39] Laura Camien: Huh?

[8:40] Susan Blackwell: A pantomime.

[8:41] Laura Camien: I love though that list and that there's mime standards.

[8:45] Susan Blackwell: Fantastic. Her accomplishments on paper are impressive, but even more impressive is how she lived her life.

[8:51] Laura Camien: And in doing so, paved the way for the next generation of women to live with more freedom.

[8:56] Susan Blackwell: Yes.

[8:57] Laura Camien: Amen to that.

[8:58] Susan Blackwell: So let me tell you a little bit. She was born Citadine Gabrielle Colette, January 28, 1873.

[9:07] Laura Camien: 1873.

[9:09] Susan Blackwell: That's right. Her last name was Colette.

[9:12] Laura Camien: That's correct.

[9:13] Susan Blackwell: And she went by Colette.

[9:14] Laura Camien: Eventually, yes.

[9:15] Susan Blackwell: Eventually.

[9:16] Laura Camien: Yeah.

[9:17] Susan Blackwell: What was that first name?

[9:17] Laura Camien: Citadine?

[9:18] Susan Blackwell: Citadine Gabrielle.

[9:20] Laura Camien: So her family was middle class.

[9:22] Susan Blackwell: And although they had relatively enough to live on, eventually, when she was of marrying age, she had no dowry to offer.

[9:29] Laura Camien: But nonetheless, one of her father's friends, Henry Gaultier Villars, proposed to her.

[9:37] Susan Blackwell: He'd been smitten with her for some time.

[9:39] Laura Camien: They married when she was 20, and he was 34.

[9:42] Susan Blackwell: Oh, boy.

[9:44] Laura Camien: Smitten with her for some time.

[9:45] Susan Blackwell: That's right. I know it was a different time, but like it was somewhat remarkable that they married, like a small bit remarkable, because he was a well-known author and publisher, and he went by the pen name Willie.

[10:00] Laura Camien: He was very well-to-do in Paris society, and he really let's say got around.

[10:06] Susan Blackwell: Well he was got around with the ladies.

[10:09] Laura Camien: In general, like he was a big part of the salon culture that we've talked about in different episodes.

[10:14] Susan Blackwell: He was on the scene.

[10:15] Laura Camien: He was on the scene.

[10:16] Susan Blackwell: He was a mix.

[10:17] Laura Camien: He was a big voice on the scene, too.

[10:19] Susan Blackwell: He wasn't just, you know, tagging along.

[10:21] Laura Camien: Say his name again.

[10:22] Susan Blackwell: Well, he went by Willie.

[10:24] Laura Camien: So that's how you wish.

[10:24] Susan Blackwell: Willie, Willy, Willie.

[10:25] Laura Camien: Willie and Colette.

[10:26] Susan Blackwell: Willie and Colette.

[10:27] Laura Camien: There were two characters so far.

[10:27] Susan Blackwell: Colette and the city.

[10:28] Laura Camien: There we go.

[10:29] Susan Blackwell: Okay.

[10:30] Laura Camien: Um, but he was among the movers and shakers and idea makers in this society.

[10:35] Susan Blackwell: And he technically, like he could have had his pick of Paris ladies, but he fell for Colette and he proposed.

[10:42] Laura Camien: And I mentioned this, like the remarkableness of this, um, mostly because I think that in the general sense there was an underlying gratitude that she and her family had for him because he married her in spite of not having a dowry.

[10:58] Susan Blackwell: You know, that he had many, many other options, and he married her even though it was of no benefit to him.

[11:06] Laura Camien: Um, and that was something that he kind of hung over her when things eventually got ugly between them.

[11:12] Susan Blackwell: So I'm just putting you know, just flagging that.

[11:15] Laura Camien: Oh, they married for love.

[11:17] Susan Blackwell: I mean, I think he did love her.

[11:20] Laura Camien: I do think they loved each other, but I think that it was a very much that sort of like mentor mentee type of relationship.

[11:27] Susan Blackwell: And he, you know, over time, like you could see his pattern, like he really loved the wide-eyed young ladies who just idolized him.

[11:35] Laura Camien: Uh-huh.

[11:36] Susan Blackwell: And less so when the woman found her own voice and opinions.

[11:40] Laura Camien: So he was a well-known author and publisher.

[11:43] Susan Blackwell: He um ran a factory of ghostwriters, essentially.

[11:47] Laura Camien: Oh.

[11:48] Susan Blackwell: And they cranked out articles and novels, and all of them were attributed to Willie.

[11:53] Laura Camien: Under his name.

[11:54] Susan Blackwell: Under his name.

[11:55] Laura Camien: Wow.

[11:56] Susan Blackwell: That is correct.

[11:57] Laura Camien: I'm fascinated by that.

[11:58] Susan Blackwell: Well, it wasn't long before Willie had Colette writing for him as well.

[12:03] Laura Camien: Oh.

[12:04] Susan Blackwell: And he eventually pushed her to write a book based on her experiences as a young girl coming of age.

[12:12] Laura Camien: Not how he put it, but that's essentially what she wrote.

[12:15] Susan Blackwell: And that book became Claudine at School, and it was published with Willie as the author.

[12:22] Laura Camien: Wow.

[12:24] Susan Blackwell: Everyone.

[12:26] Laura Camien: Everyone was reading this book.

[12:28] Susan Blackwell: Everyone.

[12:29] Laura Camien: Wow.

[12:30] Susan Blackwell: Smitten with the character of Claudine.

[12:32] Laura Camien: She was the first of her kind, really.

[12:34] Susan Blackwell: She was like a sassy, feisty female teenage voice in literature, which really had not had a place in literature before.

[12:44] Laura Camien: And of course, the author, Willie, was the talk of the town.

[12:47] Susan Blackwell: The book flew off the shelves, and they sold the theatrical rights, and there was immediate demand for a second book.

[12:55] Laura Camien: But Colette wasn't much interested in writing a second book.

[12:59] Susan Blackwell: Willie pushed her.

[13:01] Laura Camien: At certain points, he would even lock her in a room to force her to write the pages.

[13:06] Susan Blackwell: Oh my God.

[13:07] Laura Camien: This is our money maker.

[13:09] Susan Blackwell: Now you have to write these pages.

[13:14] Laura Camien: That's right.

[13:15] Susan Blackwell: So she wrote another called Claudine in Paris.

[13:17] Laura Camien: And then two more.

[13:18] Susan Blackwell: Claudine married and Claudine and Annie.

[13:21] Laura Camien: All of them are semi-autobiographical, and all of them listed Willie as the author.

[13:28] Susan Blackwell: Exactly.

[13:29] Laura Camien: God damn it.

[13:30] Susan Blackwell: It is hard to overstate the influence of this book on popular culture of that of that time.

[13:37] Laura Camien: Like girls and women dressed like I suppose I it just hit me as I was saying that, like Harry Potter now.

[13:43] Susan Blackwell: Yeah.

[13:44] Laura Camien: Like girls and women dressed like the character of Claudine.

[13:48] Susan Blackwell: They cut their hair in this scandalous bob that like Colette had.

[13:58] Laura Camien: Soap, lingerie, perfume, cigarettes, all branded Claudine.

[14:02] Susan Blackwell: Wow.

[14:03] Laura Camien: And you know, these were they were a like a slightly bit, I wouldn't, I don't know, risque.

[14:10] Susan Blackwell: Sensual.

[14:10] Laura Camien: Yeah, yeah.

[14:11] Susan Blackwell: Sensual.

[14:11] Laura Camien: Yeah.

[14:12] Susan Blackwell: So over the years, Colette and Willie, their marriage continued to have ups and downs.

[14:18] Laura Camien: He continually cheated on her.

[14:21] Susan Blackwell: And eventually she began stepping out with other women as well.

[14:27] Laura Camien: Yes.

[14:28] Susan Blackwell: He seemed to be okay with your needs met.

[14:31] Laura Camien: Your needs met Colette.

[14:33] Susan Blackwell: Um, he seemed to be okay with her and other women, but he drew the line like if she wanted to sleep with another man.

[14:39] Laura Camien: Interesting.

[14:40] Susan Blackwell: Yeah.

[14:41] Laura Camien: Um, at one point, she had an ongoing affair with a woman and was enjoying said affair and keeping it like as something that she owned.

[14:51] Susan Blackwell: Like, this is my business.

[14:52] Laura Camien: And he's like, You should write about it.

[14:54] Susan Blackwell: You shouldn't.

[14:55] Laura Camien: She's like, I'm not gonna write about it.

[14:57] Susan Blackwell: It's mine.

[14:58] Laura Camien: Kind of stay out of it.

[14:59] Susan Blackwell: Yeah.

[15:00] Laura Camien: So Willie goes around her and behind her back and starts having an affair with the same woman.

[15:06] Susan Blackwell: Oh, I mean, that tells you that that's right.

[15:09] Laura Camien: So much take a sip of water.

[15:12] Susan Blackwell: Um, yeah, I mean, kind of tell shows you like what a dick.

[15:16] Laura Camien: He just continually it was like a kind of continual sickness that he had to like hurt her or undermine her, like over and over again.

[15:26] Susan Blackwell: Do you know what I mean?

[15:27] Laura Camien: Always like he was gonna be in charge of this.

[15:31] Susan Blackwell: So despite the incredible success of the books, they always seemed to be teetering on the edge of financial ruin.

[15:38] Laura Camien: You're kidding.

[15:39] Susan Blackwell: Oh no, because he was spending money.

[15:42] Laura Camien: All the sales.

[15:42] Susan Blackwell: Where the hell did that money go?

[15:44] Laura Camien: Wow.

[15:44] Susan Blackwell: He his prostitutes, gambling, cigars, nights on the town.

[15:49] Laura Camien: Like he just because he had to like keep up this lifestyle.

[15:53] Susan Blackwell: So remember that she did the work, the hours and hours and hours of writing.

[15:58] Laura Camien: He made the deals with the publishers.

[16:01] Susan Blackwell: He got paid the money.

[16:02] Laura Camien: He spent the money.

[16:04] Susan Blackwell: His name was still on the cover of these books.

[16:05] Laura Camien: Yeah.

[16:06] Susan Blackwell: Okay.

[16:06] Laura Camien: Willie.

[16:07] Susan Blackwell: She had no control over the earnings that she was bringing in, nothing.

[16:11] Laura Camien: That was all under his control, as was the norm.

[16:16] Susan Blackwell: Lest we forget, like making your own money as a woman is a relatively recent thing.

[16:21] Laura Camien: Yeah.

[16:22] Susan Blackwell: So every so often she would threaten that she was gonna leave him.

[16:26] Laura Camien: She would push him to like get both of their names on the next publication of the book.

[16:32] Susan Blackwell: Like at this point, what's wrong with that?

[16:35] Laura Camien: Because there's no chance that it's not gonna be successful just by adding her name to it.

[16:40] Susan Blackwell: It's like Willie and Colette.

[16:42] Laura Camien: Right.

[16:42] Susan Blackwell: But he would refuse over and over again.

[16:44] Laura Camien: He would claim that the publisher wouldn't go for it, or he would claim that stories by women wouldn't sell.

[16:53] Susan Blackwell: And I think that is both like laughable, but also tragic sidebar.

[16:59] Laura Camien: I think I mentioned to you, I saw a video of Reese Witherspoon talking about this very same topic.

[17:03] Susan Blackwell: Not Colette, but the idea of women's stories of her being met with this in like 2017 or 2018, and she had a career of being told that women's stories wouldn't sell.

[17:15] Laura Camien: If she tried, she'd fall on her face, she'd lose all of her money.

[17:18] Susan Blackwell: And by God, she started her own production company, and we have big little lies, wild, little fires everywhere, which is coming out this year.

[17:26] Laura Camien: And she's made a shit ton of money supporting women, writers, actors, directors, telling women's stories, telling women's stories.

[17:34] Susan Blackwell: So here we are, a hundred years later, still fighting the same fight, still saying these stories have worth, they have value.

[17:44] Laura Camien: There are people who want to hear them.

[17:46] Susan Blackwell: Representation matters.

[17:47] Laura Camien: People want to read about themselves.

[17:51] Susan Blackwell: So back to Colette.

[17:54] Laura Camien: At one point, she began dating a woman who, in our time, we might call transgender.

[18:00] Susan Blackwell: Uh-huh.

[18:01] Laura Camien: But there was no language really to describe it at that time.

[18:05] Susan Blackwell: And also no evidence that she had any surgical changes made to alter her biological body, but she definitely identified as a man.

[18:15] Laura Camien: She dressed as a man, and not just your basic pants.

[18:19] Susan Blackwell: She went for the full three-piece suit.

[18:21] Laura Camien: Nice.

[18:21] Susan Blackwell: She smoked cigars and she she fully admitted that getting away with it was easier for her because she was wealthy and she was royal to a degree.

[18:31] Laura Camien: She was the niece of Napoleon the Third.

[18:34] Susan Blackwell: Oh.

[18:35] Laura Camien: And somewhat of a celebrity, both due to her fearless, open lesbianism and her masculine behavior.

[18:42] Susan Blackwell: She's a major fucking side spark.

[18:45] Laura Camien: Her name is Matilda de Morney.

[18:47] Susan Blackwell: She went by Missy.

[18:48] Laura Camien: Ah she's amazing.

[18:50] Susan Blackwell: Wow.

[18:51] Laura Camien: She is amazing.

[18:52] Susan Blackwell: Missy.

[18:53] Laura Camien: So by all accounts, Missy and Colette were very close.

[18:57] Susan Blackwell: And then at this time, like Colette's marriage was pretty open.

[19:02] Laura Camien: Uh Colette and Missy lived together in a house in the country while Willie lived in Paris with whoever he was dating at the time.

[19:09] Susan Blackwell: Stay in the city, Willie.

[19:10] Laura Camien: But they would like double date with Willie and his current lady.

[19:15] Susan Blackwell: Really?

[19:15] Laura Camien: Yeah.

[19:16] Susan Blackwell: Do you think Willie realized that it was a double date?

[19:20] Laura Camien: Oh, yeah.

[19:20] Susan Blackwell: Oh, yeah, yeah.

[19:22] Laura Camien: And this is when it like started to like bother him more because she, yes, she was technically still with a woman.

[19:29] Susan Blackwell: Yes.

[19:29] Laura Camien: But not with a woman.

[19:32] Susan Blackwell: Yeah.

[19:32] Laura Camien: And so, and also Colette's relationship with Missy.

[19:37] Susan Blackwell: Um, she was really coming into her own power, making her own choices, making her own decisions without like looking for Willie's approval.

[19:45] Laura Camien: So he could feel the shift.

[19:47] Susan Blackwell: Like there were many factors, but he could definitely feel the shift in the the change in their relationship.

[19:52] Laura Camien: Wow.

[19:53] Susan Blackwell: But Willie, being Willie, saw an opportunity to make money from Colette's relationship with Missy.

[20:01] Laura Camien: So he produced a show.

[20:03] Susan Blackwell: They, I mean, they agreed to it, but he produced a big grand old show with Colette and Missy starring in it, where the two of them dance provocatively and then share a kiss on stage.

[20:18] Laura Camien: This was so scandalous.

[20:20] Susan Blackwell: On the opening night, a riot broke out.

[20:24] Laura Camien: The public went crazy, and the two women could not like openly live together anymore.

[20:30] Susan Blackwell: Like they stayed together for like five more years, but they had to be way more covert about it.

[20:36] Laura Camien: Oh bummer.

[20:38] Susan Blackwell: Yeah.

[20:39] Laura Camien: Like because that life in the country sounded great.

[20:42] Susan Blackwell: Right.

[20:43] Laura Camien: I mean, it was it was basically like one of those moments where it's like, all right, we've let, you know, we've let this get far enough, and now we need to push you back down into your submissive positions.

[20:57] Susan Blackwell: You know what I mean?

[20:57] Laura Camien: Yeah.

[20:58] Susan Blackwell: Um, but also like I just found it so again, with the what is my deal with these things that are like a hundred years old and still illustrating like the kiss on a stage just last year, the prom to have a uh two girls kissing on the Macy's Thanksgiving Day parade.

[21:15] Laura Camien: Yeah, and still people like clutch their pearls.

[21:19] Susan Blackwell: Still we are working on the most basic human rights in this growth.

[21:24] Laura Camien: But at least no riots broke out this time, a hundred years later.

[21:28] Susan Blackwell: We all at least stayed calm, or maybe threw things at our TV.

[21:31] Laura Camien: I have no idea.

[21:32] Susan Blackwell: Good.

[21:33] Laura Camien: Throw something at your nice flat screen TV.

[21:35] Susan Blackwell: There you go.

[21:35] Laura Camien: Throw a beer bottle at it, you dumbass.

[21:38] Susan Blackwell: Sorry, you were saying I'm gonna get you worked up too.

[21:42] Laura Camien: I like it.

[21:42] Susan Blackwell: It doesn't I I know I respect your your feistiness and your anger about it.

[21:47] Laura Camien: It is it is uh it's angry making.

[21:50] Susan Blackwell: I mean, we're just talking about equal rights.

[21:52] Laura Camien: Good luck.

[21:53] Susan Blackwell: Like and also just let people live their authentic true selves.

[21:58] Laura Camien: Just fucking let people be themselves.

[22:01] Susan Blackwell: So during this time, Willie still held like a little bit of power over Colette.

[22:07] Laura Camien: Again, part of it may have been this sort of like, I married you despite not getting out anything out of it, like you owe me.

[22:14] Susan Blackwell: Um, I took a chance on you kind of dynamic, but also entangled business wise and also c like contractually, and also is it still a time when what's theirs is his?

[22:27] Laura Camien: Oh, for sure.

[22:28] Susan Blackwell: Yeah.

[22:29] Laura Camien: All of it.

[22:29] Susan Blackwell: Yeah.

[22:30] Laura Camien: Yeah, um, and like I said, they have this sort of mentor, mentee kind of thing.

[22:37] Susan Blackwell: And up to this point, she just everything she did, she sought his approval to some degree.

[22:43] Laura Camien: I can only imagine what he would need to do to keep somebody that powerful.

[22:49] Susan Blackwell: Well, it's he had sort of the societal setup of the time, but I can also imagine just a lot of horseshit to kind of keep her quotes in her place.

[23:00] Laura Camien: A hundred percent.

[23:01] Susan Blackwell: Because he had also introduced her into this salon culture where there were greater freedoms for women than it's like coming into a liberal bubble.

[23:09] Laura Camien: Yeah, yeah.

[23:10] Susan Blackwell: Right.

[23:11] Laura Camien: And being like, oh, here, none of these things exist in here.

[23:14] Susan Blackwell: Here in Brooklyn.

[23:15] Laura Camien: In the large, in the larger sense, they're all very, very much intact.

[23:21] Susan Blackwell: But it's funny that you question what he might have to do to lose the reins on her, I guess.

[23:28] Laura Camien: Uh-huh.

[23:29] Susan Blackwell: When she found out that he had sold the publisher all the rights to the Claudine novels in perpetuity.

[23:40] Laura Camien: Everything for next to nothing because he needed to get out of the debt.

[23:45] Susan Blackwell: She was so livid.

[23:47] Laura Camien: That was it.

[23:48] Susan Blackwell: That was the last trauma she finally.

[23:50] Laura Camien: Yes.

[23:50] Susan Blackwell: And she left him done.

[23:53] Laura Camien: Fuck.

[23:53] Susan Blackwell: That's it.

[23:54] Laura Camien: So they were like separated for a few years, but she left him.

[23:58] Susan Blackwell: All of her labor.

[24:02] Laura Camien: That is correct.

[24:03] Susan Blackwell: That's fucking deep.

[24:05] Laura Camien: So she leaves him.

[24:06] Susan Blackwell: And when she did, Willie ordered his assistant to destroy the original manuscripts of the books.

[24:13] Laura Camien: God, I keep gasping.

[24:14] Susan Blackwell: I know.

[24:16] Laura Camien: Jesus Christ.

[24:18] Susan Blackwell: Um, yeah.

[24:19] Laura Camien: And the books were written entirely by her in her handwriting.

[24:23] Susan Blackwell: Like they had little notes in the margins from him.

[24:26] Laura Camien: Like clearly he was operating much the way an editor would, which is not nothing for sure, but certainly a note here and there is nothing close to having written the book, you know.

[24:36] Susan Blackwell: Oh my god.

[24:37] Laura Camien: But he was growing increasingly worried that people would find out that he didn't write the books because this was his greatest success as well.

[24:44] Susan Blackwell: Do you know what I mean?

[24:45] Laura Camien: So fucking twisted up.

[24:46] Susan Blackwell: So Colette and Willie separated.

[24:49] Laura Camien: She worked to make her own living.

[24:51] Susan Blackwell: She performed on the stage, touring small theaters as a mime and as an actress, playing music halls across the country.

[25:00] Laura Camien: Sometimes she played the role of Claudine in Skits, the character she created.

[25:05] Susan Blackwell: But since she didn't own the copyright to the character that was based on her, um, you know, there wasn't a lot that she could do with it.

[25:13] Laura Camien: Yeah.

[25:13] Susan Blackwell: She struggled to make ends meet, but she did relish in the idea of making her own money.

[25:20] Laura Camien: She eventually, at first, she proclaimed she would never write again, but she eventually took pen to paper and wrote The Vagabond.

[25:29] Susan Blackwell: She got it published under her own name.

[25:32] Laura Camien: Get it, Colette.

[25:33] Susan Blackwell: And it was a success.

[25:34] Laura Camien: Not on the level of Claudine, but very successful nonetheless.

[25:39] Susan Blackwell: The book, again, semi-autobiographical, really broaches the subjects of women's like independence in a male-dominated society, which is a theme that we see repeated in her work.

[25:51] Laura Camien: At the time, Time magazine called her area of expertise the topic of writing primarily about quietly desperate women in love and in bed, which everyone wants to read about.

[26:06] Susan Blackwell: And Time described her style as quote, distinguished for presenting the human side of animals and the animal side of humans.

[26:16] Laura Camien: Whoa!

[26:16] Susan Blackwell: Really interesting.

[26:18] Laura Camien: So she went on to write Cherie, which was about an older woman.

[26:22] Susan Blackwell: She was in her 40s at this point, and a much younger man.

[26:25] Laura Camien: In her real life, she had married again to a wealthy editor and then seduced his son, her stepson, who was 16 at the time.

[26:36] Susan Blackwell: Oh, she is funny thing is this was barely even a scandal.

[26:42] Laura Camien: I mean, it broke up her marriage, her second marriage, but she had lived her life so openly and wrote about such sexual or at least sensual topics.

[26:51] Susan Blackwell: Like it didn't phase anyone.

[26:52] Laura Camien: And again, it's the sexual revolution in France, basically, which is probably its own spark.

[26:58] Susan Blackwell: Um we're talking about the 1920s here, and in France, like lesbianism was all the rage.

[27:03] Laura Camien: Women were gaining freedoms, and women like Colette were leading the charge.

[27:09] Susan Blackwell: So at this point, she her second marriage had failed, but she was living with the general understanding that she was the greatest woman writer France had known.

[27:20] Laura Camien: Wow.

[27:21] Susan Blackwell: And like that's how people wrote about her.

[27:24] Laura Camien: Wow.

[27:25] Susan Blackwell: She liked won awards and she didn't struggle with getting the credit that she deserved, which is really amazing that she got to know that in her lifetime for sure.

[27:35] Laura Camien: Yeah.

[27:36] Susan Blackwell: But like I said, due to that affair with her stepson, her second marriage didn't last.

[27:40] Laura Camien: They got divorced, and she remarried one more time to again to a man like 15, 16 years younger than her.

[27:48] Susan Blackwell: And his name was Maurice Gudiket.

[27:50] Laura Camien: In 1941, here's the little history lesson for you.

[27:54] Susan Blackwell: Okay.

[27:55] Laura Camien: Opening up my mind for history.

[27:57] Susan Blackwell: 1941.

[27:58] Laura Camien: 1941's a big year in history.

[28:00] Susan Blackwell: It is.

[28:02] Laura Camien: Europe was at war.

[28:03] Susan Blackwell: Yeah.

[28:04] Laura Camien: The Germans defeated and occupied France.

[28:08] Susan Blackwell: So if you're living in France, that's where Colette was.

[28:11] Laura Camien: The Germans had occupied it.

[28:13] Susan Blackwell: And we're talking about Nazi Germans.

[28:15] Laura Camien: Occupying and taking over your town.

[28:20] Susan Blackwell: Yeah.

[28:26] Laura Camien: So Colette was 67 years old.

[28:29] Susan Blackwell: And her husband was Jewish.

[28:31] Laura Camien: Oh.

[28:32] Susan Blackwell: The Germans came to her apartment and arrested him.

[28:36] Laura Camien: They kept him for several months.

[28:38] Susan Blackwell: He managed to be released thanks to the help of some business connections he had.

[28:43] Laura Camien: Oh my God.

[28:44] Susan Blackwell: But reportedly Colette never really stopped worrying that the Germans may come back at any time.

[28:50] Laura Camien: Of course.

[28:51] Susan Blackwell: Which is a real worry.

[28:52] Laura Camien: And this is really curious, and it's another spark for me.

[28:55] Susan Blackwell: I want someone to dig into because I didn't find any more info.

[29:00] Laura Camien: Um, I read that during the German occupation of Paris, Colette wrote several articles for pro-Nazi newspapers.

[29:08] Susan Blackwell: And she wrote a novel that contains anti-Semitic slurs.

[29:13] Laura Camien: This really fascinated me because she loved her husband.

[29:16] Susan Blackwell: They stayed together many more years until she died.

[29:19] Laura Camien: And we can presume she did not actually have pro-Nazi sentiments.

[29:24] Susan Blackwell: But question is this the kind of thing you do to prove your loyalty and try to get your husband back? Is this something you do to keep your family safe when you're living in a city that is occupied by Nazis and your profession is a writer?

[29:41] Laura Camien: Yeah. I'm curious about this. Like I didn't find any more about this, but if there's some Colette scholars out there and you know more about this, please share your info. I'm so sparked to know.

[29:52] Susan Blackwell: Interesting. Yeah. I just I'm fascinated by that. I think that's so fascinating, too. About everything that you're saying about Colette is that she is a complex, nothing is black and white.

[30:04] Laura Camien: That's right. So much is fluid in her life.

[30:08] Susan Blackwell: So it's interesting that this has some fluidity in it too. Though it may have been about the preservation of herself and of the people she loved.

[30:17] Laura Camien: That's right. And we don't know. Somebody might know. Some might be. But these two ladies sitting here. We don't know.

[30:23] Susan Blackwell: We don't know. So you might think that this woman has lived a very full life.

[30:28] Laura Camien: Yes. What else could I possibly have to share?

[30:31] Susan Blackwell: I can't imagine. You don't know. In her 60s, you don't even know.

[30:36] Laura Camien: Um, in her 60s, Colette wrote what would become her most famous work in her 60s.

[30:42] Susan Blackwell: Oh, yes. And it was called Gigi.

[30:45] Laura Camien: Oh.

[30:46] Susan Blackwell: It was made into a film first.

[30:49] Laura Camien: Gasping.

[30:49] Susan Blackwell: It's so crazy. It was made into a film and then it was adapted for the stage. And the person that Colette handpicked for the role of Gigi was a then unknown actress named Audrey.

[31:03] Laura Camien: Audrey Hepburn.

[31:05] Susan Blackwell: Colette actually got her career going. Like the show was a huge hit. Audrey took the world by storm, and the rest is history on that front. But it's just another thing that we have to thank Colette for.

[31:16] Laura Camien: This is amazing.

[31:18] Susan Blackwell: What is an amazing thing, right? I think it's interesting how some people are just, I don't know, Maida Wagner. Are they A listers? Are they big wave writers? Like some people just have these gigantic lives.

[31:33] Laura Camien: Seriously, but it could have all been so different. Like had she, you know, you can see the points where the road diverged into two different choices.

[31:43] Susan Blackwell: And she could have stayed with Willie.

[31:45] Laura Camien: Yeah. Her work could have been published under his name for her entire life. And who knows how many women out there that is the case, uh, you know, from history.

[31:55] Susan Blackwell: Spark Sparks, Sparks, Sparks, Sparks, that she wrote her most famous work. I don't know if it's the best work because I haven't read all this colour, but in her 60s, she was throwing it down.

[32:09] Laura Camien: That inspires me.

[32:11] Susan Blackwell: That inspires me as well. And that she didn't just curl up and you know, there's a part of me when I read that her work was semi-autobiographical. These four novels that she wrote are like beyond Harry Potter scale success of the time.

[32:29] Laura Camien: And that was taken from her.

[32:33] Susan Blackwell: She lost, like essentially, she lost it, and that she rebounded from that.

[32:38] Laura Camien: This is spark too, though. This is a spark too. I can think of some uh contemporary examples of people who have given birth to these creative babies that they love so much.

[32:52] Susan Blackwell: And for whatever reason, whether it's that they sell the rights to it, and then it doesn't get made, that's right, or they get released from the project, the project goes on without them.

[33:03] Laura Camien: Like how they are broken hearted.

[33:06] Susan Blackwell: That's right. And this is a beautiful piece of inspiration about how that can happen, and that can feel like your life has ended, but there is life after that loss, so much creativity after that loss.

[33:20] Laura Camien: And to know yourself as a creative being, that there's way more inside of you.

[33:24] Susan Blackwell: Like it wasn't the only thing that you ever had.

[33:27] Laura Camien: But yes, but yes, there's more.

[33:29] Susan Blackwell: There's more.

[33:30] Laura Camien: There's more.

[33:32] Susan Blackwell: There's more.

[33:32] Laura Camien: There's more.

[33:33] Susan Blackwell: And Colette shows us there is more.

[33:35] Laura Camien: So in all, she wrote over 30 books and short stories.

[33:39] Susan Blackwell: Yes.

[33:40] Laura Camien: She was nominated for a Nobel Prize in Literature among many, many other awards.

[33:45] Susan Blackwell: I didn't even go into that.

[33:46] Laura Camien: Wow.

[33:47] Susan Blackwell: In 1931, when Willie died, they had not spoken since the divorce. She fought to get the authorship of the Claudine books back.

[33:58] Laura Camien: Again, I gasp.

[34:00] Susan Blackwell: And what did she use to help her prove the case? The original manuscripts, which Willie's assistant had not destroyed as instructed.

[34:10] Laura Camien: See, I'm gonna cry. That so got me some here.

[34:14] Susan Blackwell: We have again small acts of heroism.

[34:18] Laura Camien: Yeah done by people, you know, in uh you know, in situations we will never know, but they made a difference.

[34:26] Susan Blackwell: So she finally got the recognition that she deserved for that work, and again, in her lifetime. So if you buy a Claudine book now, her name is on the cover.

[34:37] Laura Camien: That's right.

[34:37] Susan Blackwell: Oh that's right, that's satisfying.

[34:41] Laura Camien: Yeah, I did read a little, and I don't know the end result of this, but I did read a little that Willie had a child from another relationship, and that son attempted after Colette died to reverse that decision and get it back to Willie.

[34:58] Susan Blackwell: Yeah.

[34:59] Laura Camien: But if you go to buy the book now, Colette's name is on it.

[35:05] Susan Blackwell: So prior to her death on August 3rd, 1954, Colette remarked, What a wonderful life I've had. I only wish I'd realized it sooner.

[35:14] Laura Camien: Oh so fascinating.

[35:17] Susan Blackwell: I love that quote.

[35:19] Laura Camien: Right? That's a good daily reminder.

[35:22] Susan Blackwell: Yeah.

[35:23] Laura Camien: We're living a good life.

[35:24] Susan Blackwell: We're living a good life.

[35:25] Laura Camien: All of us are living a good life.

[35:26] Susan Blackwell: The trick is to remember it every day.

[35:29] Laura Camien: In the moment.

[35:30] Susan Blackwell: Yeah. So what do we make of this?

[35:32] Laura Camien: Well, first, please make anything that can help us all be more aware of how much women like Colette and Missy and others did to give us all the privileges we have now.

[35:42] Susan Blackwell: Okay, fucking men.

[35:44] Laura Camien: Right?

[35:45] Susan Blackwell: Yes. There are way more stories to be told here.

[35:47] Laura Camien: There's there's two movies out that deal with just her early years and the Claudine series, which of course is critically important, but I'd love to see more about her work and the years beyond that.

[36:00] Susan Blackwell: The sexual revolution in France.

[36:03] Laura Camien: How I mean think of how much earlier that happened in France than it did in the US.

[36:08] Susan Blackwell: Yeah.

[36:08] Laura Camien: Still working on some things here.

[36:10] Susan Blackwell: Still working on it. Um, the curious, like pro-Nazi writings while under German occupation.

[36:16] Laura Camien: Fascinating.

[36:16] Susan Blackwell: I know there's a story there.

[36:18] Laura Camien: And again, the cross dressing and the people who were fearless in wearing what they wanted to wear, even though they could have been arrested or beaten for it, Missy is a huge spark.

[36:29] Susan Blackwell: Missy is the spark.

[36:31] Laura Camien: Missy needs, like she needs to be out there.

[36:34] Susan Blackwell: Her story needs to be told.

[36:35] Laura Camien: I want to look up Missy and look at pictures of Missy and get into Missy.

[36:41] Susan Blackwell: Yeah, get into Missy.

[36:43] Laura Camien: In the French society at this time, women couldn't vote. They didn't have a platform to express their opinions, but within this salon culture, this artistic community, um, they really did have a voice.

[36:56] Susan Blackwell: So this whole moment in French history is a huge spark because it really like exploded in a bigger way.

[37:03] Laura Camien: But it was a little microcosm at that time.

[37:06] Susan Blackwell: So at the time of her death, Time Magazine wrote in Colette's obituary, she died a revered national institution, yet fulfilling in every way the wish that she herself had made many years before she expressed.

[37:21] Laura Camien: And when you lie down across the dizzying, wavy path, if you have not already shed your curly locks one by one, nor one by one your teeth, if your limbs have not worn out one by one, if the dust of the world has not before your last hour, sealed your eyes from the marvelous light.

[37:42] Susan Blackwell: If you have right to the end kept your hand in the friendly hand which guides you, lie down smiling, sleep happily, and sleep privileged.

[37:56] Laura Camien: And there I say, thanks to the sacrifices and the risk taking on the part of Colette and Missy and many others.

[38:04] Susan Blackwell: We are indeed privileged.

[38:07] Laura Camien: Oh, Camion, what a fucking spark that is.

[38:12] Susan Blackwell: That's a spark.

[38:13] Laura Camien: Thank you.

[38:13] Susan Blackwell: I feel like I missed this whole chapter.

[38:16] Laura Camien: I knew that like when I think of Colette, I associate it with being in like either a feminist bookstore, uh LGBTQ context.

[38:26] Susan Blackwell: And I just feel like uh there's this like missing puzzle piece that you have begun to fill in.

[38:33] Laura Camien: Oh, I'm so happy with this spark.

[38:35] Susan Blackwell: Because there's so much, and she was popular with everyone.

[38:39] Laura Camien: Everyone was reading her, like those Claudine novels, everyone was reading.

[38:44] Susan Blackwell: Men, women, like the nanny diaries.

[38:48] Laura Camien: Everyone.

[38:48] Susan Blackwell: Yes.

[38:49] Laura Camien: Oh my God.

[38:50] Susan Blackwell: What a fascinating spark.

[38:53] Laura Camien: Thanks.

[38:54] Susan Blackwell: You.

[38:54] Laura Camien: Thank you.

[38:55] Susan Blackwell: That was great.

[38:56] Laura Camien: Thank you. It was great.

[38:57] Susan Blackwell: I can't wait to hear what you've got for me.

[38:59] Laura Camien: I feel like our sparks in a way might brush up against each other.

[39:02] Susan Blackwell: Really?

[39:02] Laura Camien: But we'll love when I'm so lightly.

[39:05] Susan Blackwell: So lightly settle down.

[39:07] Laura Camien: Just a nudge.

[39:07] Susan Blackwell: Manage your expectations.

[39:09] Laura Camien: We'll be back in a second.

[39:11] Susan Blackwell: Cams.

[39:12] Laura Camien: Yeah.

[39:14] Susan Blackwell: Somebody listed something on Instagram, and it was such a spark. And I just wanted to share it out. This is from an account.

[39:24] Laura Camien: Wait, are we recording?

[39:25] Susan Blackwell: Yeah.

[39:25] Laura Camien: Oh, hi.

[39:27] Susan Blackwell: Somebody on Instagram named Wendy Mack, MAC posted this. I'm just gonna read it. Seven years ago, a group of artists, writers, nonprofiteers, entrepreneurs, and cinema lovers pulled our money and purchased the Rio, a historic single-screen movie theater in Russian River, California.

[39:46] Laura Camien: We invested time, sweat, love, and money to restore and build up the 1950 theater, continue its community tradition, and help it to grow into a broader arts and events space.

[39:56] Susan Blackwell: As expected, we went through heaven and hell with the place from ping pong tournaments to Oscar night parties to flood repair to blowout weddings to you name it.

[40:04] Laura Camien: The Rio hosted it.

[40:06] Susan Blackwell: It's been a fabulous fun and fulfilling ride, but with most of us now living at a distance and many of us with new slash young kids changing jobs, etc. It's gotten so we can't give the Rio the local love it needs and deserves.

[40:18] Laura Camien: So we are now looking for the right people to take on the theater and help it become the epic film/slash art slash community event space it can be.

[40:26] Susan Blackwell: It has crystal fabric draped ceilings and hand-painted movie poster murals, a full restaurant/slash cafe out back with tons of seating and huge adjacent lawn, and it's right next to the Russian River.

[40:39] Laura Camien: All the info about the sale is online. Just type in the Rio Theater, comma, Monte Rio for sale, and you'll find us.

[40:47] Susan Blackwell: It's bittersweet to let it go, but we're psyched for the Rio to become all it can be while continuing on as the historic gem it is.

[40:54] Laura Camien: Hit me up if you've got any cues and I'll point you in the right direction.

[40:58] Susan Blackwell: And then there are a series of are we buying the Rio Theater? Is this my birthday kit? It's really beautiful.

[41:04] Laura Camien: And I just thought for the right person, I'll just show you a quick pick.

[41:11] Susan Blackwell: Just a quick pick.

[41:13] Laura Camien: For the right person, um, it could be super cute.

[41:20] Susan Blackwell: Look at the lobby.

[41:21] Laura Camien: Oh my god.

[41:22] Susan Blackwell: They did a fantastic job.

[41:23] Laura Camien: They did a really nice job.

[41:25] Susan Blackwell: Wow.

[41:26] Laura Camien: So I just I wanted to put it out here on the Sparks file because it might be a spark for somebody.

[41:32] Susan Blackwell: Save this theater.

[41:33] Laura Camien: Save this theater.

[41:35] Susan Blackwell: That's fantastic.

[41:36] Laura Camien: I totally have fantasy.

[41:37] Susan Blackwell: It's about a theater and art space, like taking an old school and converting it into a cultural center.

[41:45] Laura Camien: I think would be incredible.

[41:47] Susan Blackwell: This is a nice, there's a nice start.

[41:48] Laura Camien: Do you want to move out to uh Monte Rio, California with me?

[41:52] Susan Blackwell: With you, yes.

[41:54] Laura Camien: Why, yes.

[41:55] Susan Blackwell: I thought you were just gonna send me out.

[41:57] Laura Camien: We don't have a down payment.

[41:58] Susan Blackwell: We don't know how to run a theater.

[42:00] Laura Camien: But hey, this sounds like the great start of a great family movie.

[42:04] Susan Blackwell: Um anyway, we're bought a farm.

[42:08] Laura Camien: Sparking.

[42:08] Susan Blackwell: We bought a zoo.

[42:09] Laura Camien: We bought a theater, but enough about that.

[42:12] Susan Blackwell: Welcome back.

[42:13] Laura Camien: Welcome back.

[42:14] Susan Blackwell: Let's jump into your spark.

[42:15] Laura Camien: I want your spark.

[42:16] Susan Blackwell: Here we go. My spark title this week is In the Creative Flow.

[42:22] Laura Camien: This spark originally came to me from our friend, friend of the podcast, Celia Keenan-Bolger.

[42:28] Susan Blackwell: Celia!

[42:29] Laura Camien: CKB is a human spark file.

[42:31] Susan Blackwell: Yeah.

[42:32] Laura Camien: CKB texts me the best sparkly sparks all the time.

[42:37] Susan Blackwell: I know.

[42:37] Laura Camien: You're just green eyes like shooting envy over at you.

[42:42] Susan Blackwell: Your eyes just flashed at me.

[42:44] Laura Camien: Like no seen that expression.

[42:46] Susan Blackwell: Although I do have friends and I thank you very much who send me sparks. Please keep it.

[42:53] Laura Camien: Um if you'd like to be shouted out on the Sparkfile podcast, send us sparks.

[42:58] Susan Blackwell: Um spark sources uh today include the podcast That's So Retrograde, the podcast Reignite Wellness with JJ Virgin, a book by Elisa VT and other sources, which I will cite as we go.

[43:12] Laura Camien: Trigger warning, aka T W A K A T Dubs. I'm gonna be talking about the human body, nutrition, exercise.

[43:19] Susan Blackwell: If any of that freaks your shit, do what you gotta do.

[43:22] Laura Camien: Also, I just want to say up top, I'm not a doctor, I'm not dispensing medical advice.

[43:27] Susan Blackwell: If any of what I'm going to share sparks you, it's up to you to do more research. Consult an actual medical professional.

[43:33] Laura Camien: I also want to say this spark is not only for those who identify as female, it's also for people who love, support, collaborate with, lead, and follow those people.

[43:42] Susan Blackwell: Let's get into it.

[43:43] Laura Camien: Woo!

[43:44] Susan Blackwell: Cams, yeah, baby. Sparklers. I want to share something with you.

[43:48] Laura Camien: I'm not proud of it.

[43:49] Susan Blackwell: No.

[43:50] Laura Camien: But it's true.

[43:50] Susan Blackwell: Okay.

[43:51] Laura Camien: I have been having a period for almost 40 years.

[43:56] Susan Blackwell: That's not the part I'm not proud of.

[43:58] Laura Camien: Double negatives.

[43:59] Susan Blackwell: I don't know how to say that. That's I'm not ashamed of that part.

[44:03] Laura Camien: Of having a period for 40 years.

[44:05] Susan Blackwell: The part I'm not proud of is the fact that even though I've had roughly, I did the math, 468 menstrual periods, I am still surprised when I get my period. Still, is this happening? Always surprised. I am not at all attuned with all that jazz. Cams, as always, this spark is a surprise that you are hearing for the first time. I don't want to put you on the spot. So you can weigh in on this as much or as little, you can share your personal experiences as much or as little as you like. That being said, are you attuned with your menstrual cycle?

[44:46] Laura Camien: Fuck no. Um, I have to say, I was going to add in willingly and voluntarily. Like it amazes me sometimes you go to the doctor's office, and I feel like this is a more recent thing. Oh, they always ask. And I'll be like, uh uh uh, can I look hang on? Can I look at my calendar? Uh somewhere around this time. But they say it as though it's just something keeping track of it. Like, oh, well, in February, it was February um 16th, as though you have that top of mind. I've been asked that for years and years now, but I don't think like early on, do you remember? I kind of think I do. So who decided it? I don't know. Listen, we're gonna get into all of it.

[45:31] Susan Blackwell: After all of these years of having a period, I still find myself out of touch. Here's a fun story. Remember in our conversation with Pippasu, the story I told about being late to the table read of the TV pilot we were filming? Same pilot. The following week, I was filming this huge party scene in this. Have I told you this story? I don't know. There's not enough to go on yet. Oh, here we go. I don't think I have. I think you'd know it. Okay. I was filming this huge party scene at the Schwanky West Village Loft. I think it was Donna Karen's loft. I think that's fancy. I'm wearing this amazing costume created by Patricia Field, who did the costume for Sex in the City. Patricia Field has me in this little pencil skirt, bare legs, heels, and I'm filming with Katie Holmes, who starred on that show.

[46:16] Laura Camien: And we're about, I know this story's got everything.

[46:18] Susan Blackwell: We're about to roll on this shot. There are like 10 million uh background actors in the scene, and all the principal actors in the pilot are in this big party scene. We're all on set, we're all on our marks in the center of the scene, and then all of a sudden I feel something running down my leg.

[46:38] Laura Camien: No.

[46:38] Susan Blackwell: And I this is a true story. You heard it here first. I turned to Katie Holmes and I'm like, fuck, Katie. I think I just started my period. And it's running down my leg. Literally. And there was a bathroom nearby, but there was so much lighting equipment blocking the door.

[47:00] Laura Camien: No.

[47:00] Susan Blackwell: Couldn't access the bathroom. This is a true glamorous show business story. I go behind a potted plant and like a floor lamp, and Katie Holmes creates a human barrier and finds me cocktail napkins that are props from this huge party scene. That I somehow, while she body blocks me, I somehow reach up and wrap around my thong to catch the flow.

[47:28] Laura Camien: My God.

[47:30] Susan Blackwell: Oh my god, Cammy. Between being late to that table read and that surprise starting my period standing next to celebrity guest, Katie Holmes. What a pilot adventure. I am surprised I ever worked again. These were close, these were like two weeks apart.

[47:45] Laura Camien: Oh my god.

[47:46] Susan Blackwell: I checked my calendar because I was like, what's going on with you? I think I was so excited and busy and so out of touch with ever having when my period came. I just was totally out of tune with it. And this is one of those things like Pippa Sue talks about the gap between when it happens and when you can laugh about it. How long did it take? That's a but I even recognized at the time I was like, this is a good story. Like me tucked behind Katie Holmes in a pot of plant, shoving shoving fucking cocktail napkins at my thong.

[48:14] Laura Camien: Oh my god.

[48:15] Susan Blackwell: Show business plan. So I hadn't told you that story. I take it.

[48:31] Laura Camien: Surprise and delight each other.

[48:32] Susan Blackwell: You are surprising me.

[48:34] Laura Camien: And delighting me.

[48:35] Susan Blackwell: And delighting me. So here's another fun fact about me being out of touch with my period. Nathan, my husband, will tell me when my period is coming.

[48:46] Laura Camien: Nathan can tell from my behavior.

[48:48] Susan Blackwell: That is correct. He tells me that when I become sort of more gentle and sort of his words, maudlin, when he starts to see the softer side of Sears, he knows my period's coming. And Nathan will give me a heads up.

[49:03] Laura Camien: Yeah.

[49:03] Susan Blackwell: When I'm like, I don't know why I feel how I feel. He's like, my baby. Could it be at your period? Uh-huh. So all of this is to say I have my head right up my ass when it comes to my period. But this matters. And it matters not just to human beings, it matters to creatives.

[49:22] Laura Camien: Yeah.

[49:23] Susan Blackwell: I remember seeing, do you recollect this at all? It made such a huge impression on me that I found it when I started doing The Spark. I found it immediately.

[49:31] Laura Camien: Okay.

[49:31] Susan Blackwell: Whitney Houston and Mariah Carey were on the Oprah Winfrey show years ago, talking about how the vocal cords can become inflamed during what Whitney Houston calls the monthly.

[49:42] Laura Camien: No.

[49:43] Susan Blackwell: Yes. Whitney said during your period, it can make it harder to sing, and your voice can drop like an octave or two. And Oprah goes, So Luther doesn't have this problem. And everyone laughs. But Whitney goes on to say how opera singers, and apparently in the anecdote she was sharing, Mariah Carey won't sing around that time of the month because of the way that the So talk about the way it impacts your creative.

[50:06] Laura Camien: My mind knows when it's happening.

[50:08] Susan Blackwell: Mariah knew enough to be like, I won't be going into the booth today.

[50:13] Laura Camien: Wow.

[50:14] Susan Blackwell: And also remember, so we were just sitting down. This was off mic, and if I if she doesn't want me to tell it, I won't. But um, we were talking with Bobby Lopez and Kristen Anderson-Lopez, and she was saying how she has discerned that the two days leading up to her period and the first two days of her period, she doesn't put speak publicly, like she doesn't give keynote addresses, she doesn't like to do stuff where she has to have verbal agility because she loses her words around that time.

[50:41] Laura Camien: Yeah.

[50:41] Susan Blackwell: That's a big deal for a writer or a speaker or a presenter.

[50:45] Laura Camien: So for sure.

[50:46] Susan Blackwell: I remember seeing I hearing that thing from Kristen, seeing that thing on the Oprah Winfrey show and really being struck by it because I, in contrast, am so not in tune with my period.

[50:57] Laura Camien: Yeah, well, me neither, obviously, but um I also think it that's something to aspire to to get your career in a place where you can make those decisions.

[51:07] Susan Blackwell: Like for the rest of us, can you decide like I'm not giving that presentation?

[51:15] Laura Camien: We're gonna get it today.

[51:16] Susan Blackwell: Yeah, we're getting into it, Cammy.

[51:18] Laura Camien: We're getting into it. Bring it.

[51:19] Susan Blackwell: Bring it. Um I will I want to say this. I think I come by all of this very honestly. We didn't really talk about much of this kind of stuff when we were growing up, and I was super um embarrassed by it, and I didn't want to talk about it. I remember being mortified by it. So I wasn't super keyed into it, even though I was there's a lot of women in my house, but um, and my and I will also say my period has been relatively mild for the most part.

[51:44] Laura Camien: Yeah.

[51:44] Susan Blackwell: I go through sort of the regular menstrual ups and downs that most everyone does, but I've never had a significant health or physical issue that demand that I pay super close attention and do a lot of investigation around this. But I've always wished that I was more attuned with it. Um, but I was also like, fuck, if I haven't figured it out by now, I'm probably not going to figure it out. But then Celia sent me an episode of the podcast, That's So Retrograde, hosted by Elizabeth Cott and Stephanie Cimbari.

[52:14] Laura Camien: Okay.

[52:14] Susan Blackwell: And their guest was a woman named Alisa Vitti. This is from Elise's website, Flow Living.com. Alisa Viti is a total geek when it comes to hormonal biochemistry, functional nutrition, endocrinology, epigenetics, and neuropsychology. She's a graduate of John Hopkins University and the Institute for Integrative Nutrition. Her company is called Flow Living, and she has published a book called Woman Code and another book called In the Flow.

[52:44] Laura Camien: Okay.

[52:44] Susan Blackwell: Elisa, unlike me, has paid close attention to her appearance. I would say very close to the city. She has even made a study of it, first to address her own period and medical issues and then to share that information with the world. In her TED talk, she tells the story of how, as a 20-year-old college student at John Hopkins University, she had what she called a major hormonal breakdown that changed her life.

[53:08] Laura Camien: Wow.

[53:10] Susan Blackwell: She weighed 200 pounds. She had painful cystic acne. She was getting her period only two times a year. She was exhausted, depressed, and had constant brain fog, and she didn't know what was wrong. Finally, after six years of seeing doctor after doctor after doctor, she did her own research on her mysterious symptoms, and she discovered a condition that described all of the symptoms she was experiencing called polycystic ovarian syndrome, PCOS.

[53:36] Laura Camien: Wow.

[53:36] Susan Blackwell: Then her doctor confirmed her self-diagnosis and told her that the prognosis was grim. There was no treatment besides taking medication that might or might not help just her symptoms, but wouldn't provide a cure. And Elisa was not having it. She took matters into her own hands and began looking deeply into what causes hormonal dysfunction, how to treat it naturally without synthetic hormones.

[54:00] Laura Camien: Wow.

[54:00] Susan Blackwell: So right there is a spark for you, for me, for anyone. Anyone who becomes their own medical champion and advocate on a small scale or a large scale is always so inspiring to me.

[54:13] Laura Camien: Yes.

[54:14] Susan Blackwell: But that is not what hooked me. Alisa's whole deal is for women to get in sync with their cycle and to bring it back into balance if it's out of whack. In her book, In the Flow, she writes: By living, eating, and working in synchrony with your cyclical nature, rather than fighting against it, you can unleash your creativity and fire up your energy.

[54:35] Laura Camien: Wow.

[54:35] Susan Blackwell: You'll tap into that elusive sensation of flow. That incredible feeling that you have when everything just clicks. You'll intuitively understand how to manage stress, increase self-satisfaction, quiet your inner critical voice, vampires, improve your health, and empower yourself to become productive and efficient in ways that are sustainable for you. And I know that sounds like some like book dust jacket promises, but I was like, in my intuitive body, I was like, there's this feels like there's something to this.

[55:06] Laura Camien: Yeah.

[55:06] Susan Blackwell: So that's what sparked me. Because if Elisa Vidi's method is even partially effective, it might play a really big part in her creativity. I just want to state that she specifies in the book, I'm not necessarily referring to the traditional sense of creativity.

[55:23] Laura Camien: Okay.

[55:23] Susan Blackwell: Dancing, playing piano, or jewelry making, but rather the sense that you can bring to life the big ideas, projects, and plans you dream about. And I was like, that's creativity. She writes, you'll be able to optimize your creative output according to the predictable nature of your cyclical patterns when your hormones are balanced.

[55:31] Laura Camien: Wow.

[55:31] Susan Blackwell: And I was like, that's exactly what I'm talking about. And maybe I'm not a jewelry maker, but I want to like get in touch with just like the energetic uh hormonal balance and flow of it so I can make the most of my remaining time on the planet.

[56:00] Laura Camien: That's right.

[56:00] Susan Blackwell: You know, that's right. Optimize it.

[56:02] Laura Camien: Yeah.

[56:02] Susan Blackwell: Um, jumping back, when Celia sent me the link to the podcast That's So Retrograde, I learned a brand new concept. It is the concept of Inphradian rhythms.

[56:15] Laura Camien: Ever heard of it?

[56:16] Susan Blackwell: Excuse me, what? Elisa Vitti writes in her book, we usually only hear about one timing cycle, the circadian rhythm. Circadian is from the Latin words circa around and dum, day, describing the solar cycle of one day. Cammian, say hello to your second clock, the 28-day Inphradian rhythm.

[56:38] Laura Camien: Your menstrual cycle is rocking on the Inphradian rhythm.

[56:42] Susan Blackwell: Sidespark Inphradian rhythm would be an amazing name for an all-girl big band.

[56:51] Laura Camien: All women come on.

[56:53] Susan Blackwell: Come on. Amazing. Hold on. So it really just means like the 28-day cycle.

[56:57] Laura Camien: That is the 28-day cycle.

[56:59] Susan Blackwell: Okay. She goes on. While children, men, and postmenopausal women are operating on a single biological clock. Women of reproductive age have a second clock starting at puberty and continuing until you reach menopause.

[57:13] Laura Camien: Wow.

[57:13] Susan Blackwell: This Inphradian rhythm is tied to your monthly menstrual cycle, which includes four distinct phases: follicular, ovulatory, luteal, and menstrual. The same way your circadian clock plays a role in your daily bodily functions, your 28-day Inphradian clock influences your brain chemistry and physiology, providing you with unique gifts and strengths at different times of the month.

[57:37] Laura Camien: No way.

[57:38] Susan Blackwell: Yes. No way. Are you sincere? Because when I heard this, I was like, I think it's the reason why Celia was like, ugh, and sent this to me. And I was also like, ugh. Because I was like, if this is true,

[57:49] Laura Camien: Yeah.

[57:49] Susan Blackwell: And it feels in my body that my energies do change as the month progresses, then we could actually be doing something with this. We could be harnessing the right things at the right time.

[58:02] Laura Camien: Honest the power of the infrared.

[58:04] Susan Blackwell: I'm completely sincere. She claims that you can adjust the way you care for yourself in each phase and harness strengths around your creativity, energy, emotions, and sexuality. You can also rock a female-centered form of time management that works with your hormonal phases to help you get more done with less stress and more enjoyment. In other words, she's expanding the idea of living exclusively by the standard 24 hour clock, which is in alignment with the male hormonal cycle and shifting us to a more sustainable 28-day approach.

[58:38] Laura Camien: Oh my God.

[58:40] Susan Blackwell: Isn't that interesting?

[58:41] Laura Camien: It's really interesting.

[58:44] Susan Blackwell: I was fascinated by this. And of course, of course, like I mean, of course, like our clocks are built not around a woman's cycle.

[58:56] Laura Camien: Of course.

[58:57] Susan Blackwell: Of course, because like women didn't even have a voice or a say in these matters when they became when they were determined.

[59:04] Laura Camien: Right.

[59:04] Susan Blackwell: So now we have some more information, and we can make some of our own choices about this.

[59:11] Laura Camien: So back to Elisa VD.

[59:14] Susan Blackwell: At each of those four phases that I just mentioned, you're in a different mindset, your body is behaving differently, you need different things, and different things may come more easily to you.

[59:24] Laura Camien: Which it's so funny because when I was reading this and I was like, Nathan, I my I am sparks on sparks with this book. And he was like, uh, is the research there? Like, is that no? And in fairness, he has this good skepticism to him.

[59:24] Susan Blackwell: Of course.

[59:24] Laura Camien: And I was like, the research seems to be there.

[59:41] Susan Blackwell: Yeah.

[59:41] Laura Camien: And also, I feel this in my body. It feels true. It feels true in my body.

[59:47] Susan Blackwell: Yeah.

[59:48] Laura Camien: And I was like, PS, you're the one that looks at me and is like, hey, softer side of Sears. When I start getting like, when I'm like, hey, babe, I just want to tell you. I just, I just I love you so much. And he's like, somebody's good. Like he can see it.

[1:00:01] Susan Blackwell: Different things are at work.

[1:00:04] Laura Camien: Absolutely.

[1:00:05] Susan Blackwell: Yeah.

[1:00:06] Laura Camien: Um, Elisa says, when we match our activities with our unique skill sets during each of the four phases of our cycle, instead of expending all our energy trying to force ourselves to focus on similar tasks day in and day out, we can accomplish more of what we truly want to be doing and prioritize what's right for our bodies with less effort. All of a sudden we shift from feeling like we don't ever have enough time to feeling like we have plenty of time to do all the things that we want and need to do. We have more space to get things done. We can perform at our highest levels and feel more energized at the end of the day.

[1:00:38] Susan Blackwell: Now I read that and I'm like, okay, that sounds like change like the external forces that and demands that are on us.

[1:00:46] Laura Camien: Yeah.

[1:00:46] Susan Blackwell: But there is something I can wrap my mind around, and we'll talk about it a little bit more. About how instead of managing your time according to a circadian clock, if you sort of like parse the things that you want to do around this 28-day cycle, there may be something to this.

[1:00:53] Laura Camien: There may be something to this.

[1:01:09] Susan Blackwell: I'm waiting to hear like, can this fold into, you know, again, like the norms of our the world that we live in and the demands at work or at home? Can can you layer on this this map?

[1:01:21] Laura Camien: Yes.

[1:01:24] Susan Blackwell: Okay.

[1:01:25] Laura Camien: Yes.

[1:01:25] Susan Blackwell: Okay, tell me everything.

[1:01:26] Laura Camien: Okay, well, I'll do my best.

[1:01:27] Susan Blackwell: Yeah.

[1:01:28] Laura Camien: I'm not at least a VT, but I'll do my best. So, for instance, according to her cycle syncing method, TM, she recommends the following, which I've modified slightly to reflect our creative world.

[1:01:40] Susan Blackwell: Okay.

[1:01:41] Laura Camien: So the first phase is called follicular. It lasts about seven to ten days. And these are it's all about creativity. Her words.

[1:01:48] Susan Blackwell: Whoa.

[1:01:49] Laura Camien: She says the overall hormone effect on the brain is one of openness to new things, creativity, and beginnings. What do you want more of in your life? Where can you set your intentions? Ideal ways to use this time. Starting new projects, brainstorming with collaborators, tackling challenging mental tasks, problem solving, researching new ideas, making plans for the month ahead, dreaming big. And when I think about the Sparks file, this is when I would be researching and drafting sparks.

[1:02:19] Susan Blackwell: That's genius.

[1:02:20] Laura Camien: Yes. Can I ask you this phase one? Is this like like right after your cycle ends?

[1:02:25] Susan Blackwell: Correct.

[1:02:26] Laura Camien: Now you're starting with right after you phase.

[1:02:29] Susan Blackwell: Yep.

[1:02:29] Laura Camien: Yep.

[1:02:30] Susan Blackwell: Okay.

[1:02:31] Laura Camien: Yeah.

[1:02:31] Susan Blackwell: And the next phase is called ovulatory. It lasts about three or four days, and it's all about communication.

[1:02:37] Laura Camien: All about communication, you say.

[1:02:49] Susan Blackwell: This is a good time for important conversations. Connect with your community and enjoy being magnetic. Ideal ways to use this time, having important conversations, writing sparks, crafting marketing copy, posting on social media, networking, giving talks, leading workshops, socializing. And I'm going to go ahead and say recording episodes of the Sparks Phone podcast.

[1:03:11] Laura Camien: Right, communicating.

[1:03:13] Susan Blackwell: Yes, all the things, all the communication pieces.

[1:03:16] Laura Camien: Yes. Um, the next up, and I will side spark here for a second. Today I'm in the very end of this phase, the luteal phase, and I'm headed into the menstrual phase. And it's been a challenge because it's not easy for me to talk and communicate right now. I'm a little bit foggy, I'm sort of a little more internal.

[1:03:38] Susan Blackwell: Yeah, and I can see how if we were running the Sparks File business full time, I don't want to jump my spar.

[1:03:46] Laura Camien: Oh but we could really capitalize on this.

[1:03:50] Susan Blackwell: Okay.

[1:03:50] Laura Camien: Yep, okay.

[1:03:50] Susan Blackwell: The next phase is luteal. It lasts about 10 to 14 days. So that's a nice long stretch. And it's all about administrative tasks and completion. Alisa says, your brain chemistry is optimized for task and detail orientation and bringing projects to completion. In the first half of this phase, you have some energy to spend with others. In the second half, focus more on taking care of yourself as you're headed into the menstrual phase. Speak up for yourself, say no more often, and set your own firm boundaries. Otherwise, you may become irritated this week. Ideal ways to use this time, organize your desk, your art, or your music studio, devote time to deep work, review the fine print, order supplies, organize your files, wrap up projects, help your collaborators meet deadlines. And if it if we're gonna apply this to the spark file, I would say this is when we do the fine polishing of sparks. Like we've done the big writing, this is when we're polishing sparks.

[1:04:45] Laura Camien: Nice.

[1:04:50] Susan Blackwell: The last is menstrual. It lasts about three to seven days. This is what we all think of when we think about having our period.

[1:04:56] Laura Camien: Yeah.

[1:04:57] Susan Blackwell: Um, though, though the cycle is forever 28 days.

[1:05:01] Laura Camien: You're right, Cammy.

[1:05:02] Susan Blackwell: It's all about evaluation, intuition, and contemplation. Alisa says as hormone levels quickly decline to their lowest concentration, it creates the greatest communication between your two brain hemispheres, the left analytical side and the right feeling side. This means you are best able to synthesize how you feel about situations with the facts and determine the best course of action. Schedule time for analysis and review and think strategically about where you want to go in terms of the big picture of your life. Allow yourself to turn inward to journal and reflect on where you are now. Ideal ways to use.

[1:05:39] Laura Camien: I can see your brain gears just turning.

[1:05:41] Susan Blackwell: Yes.

[1:05:42] Laura Camien: Yeah. Ideal ways to use this time, evaluating the past month, reviewing your monthly planner or bullet journal, and noticing patterns. Asking yourself if you like the creative projects you're currently working on. Interesting. Asking yourself if your creative goals are headed in the right direction, listening to your gut instincts, taking frequent breaks, and if possible, taking a personal day. And if I was going to layer this onto the spark file, I would say seeking sparks and assessing and editing podcast content. This would be a good time for me to be editing sound files, for instance. Something that is also like maybe a little lower energy, something but that I can do on your own and yeah.

[1:06:25] Susan Blackwell: Um what do you have any thoughts before I I'm just so curious about like one? First of all, it just sounds like an incredible opportunity.

[1:06:37] Laura Camien: Like if you actually could build your life around this.

[1:06:39] Susan Blackwell: Yeah.

[1:06:40] Laura Camien: And then uh yeah, I'm pretty much wanting, I'm just thinking about how um how can we layer this on to the realities of the world.

[1:06:48] Susan Blackwell: Life.

[1:06:49] Laura Camien: Yeah.

[1:06:49] Susan Blackwell: I'm thinking about it too.

[1:06:50] Laura Camien: Yeah.

[1:06:51] Susan Blackwell: She writes, this same four-step creative matrix plays out in all the projects we undertake and in our business cycles. Let's say you need to update your website, for instance. You'll start with a brainstorming session, that's initiation, then produce all the copy and images you'll need, that's growth, then input all the new material and changes, that's completion. Then sit back and evaluate any final tweaks that could be made. That's rest. Whichever phase of the project you're in, you can bring forth the best of your cyclical phase at that moment.

[1:07:22] Laura Camien: I I know that, and we'll talk about this, that we can't always align this with the deliverables that are due. Like today, maybe not the best time for me to be on mic trying to communicate, but um she speaks to this. So it's not like, oh, all is lost.

[1:07:43] Susan Blackwell: Yeah, it it sounds like there's a little bit of like when you have the self-awareness, you may still need to record on a day like this, but you are aware of your strengths and your weaknesses, quote unquote. You're maybe kinder and gentler with yourself and understanding what's going on. To buy provide yourself with some um remedies that may help you, you know, do that task.

[1:08:07] Laura Camien: I also am thinking about the fact that you know, cycles tend to line up when you spend a lot of time with other women. And I wonder if this is part of the reasoning, because if you did spend time with the same women, you could I actually heard a story. This is not from Elisa VD's work, but I heard a story recently about this that the reason cycles line up, the the evolutionary biological reason that this journalist was presenting was that there is an alpha female in every group. And evolutionarily speaking, that alpha female got first pick of who she could uh fuck to get impregnated. And when every so if she's in her menstrual phase, all the other all the other women's menstrual phases will line up with hers to make sure that she is still alpha and that she still has the pick. So she's not the only one in dispose. Everybody's indispose during the menstrual phase. I hope that that's some that's interesting.

[1:09:09] Susan Blackwell: I'm curious to know what the science sorry, I'm gonna play the role of Nathan today. What's there science behind that?

[1:09:14] Laura Camien: I think that is, I think there's science and research behind that, but uh, you should also know I don't know what I'm talking about. And I pulled that from some article I read off of social media probably a year ago out of my butt.

[1:09:25] Susan Blackwell: No, it's an interesting theory. And I could be getting it so wrong.

[1:09:28] Laura Camien: Please enjoy this episode of bad science with Susan Blackwell.

[1:09:34] Susan Blackwell: That it's you know, equally possible that it is an alignment on on this uh what do you call the calendar again? The band name.

[1:09:41] Laura Camien: The infradian rhythm.

[1:09:44] Susan Blackwell: The infradian cycle.

[1:09:45] Laura Camien: Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[1:09:46] Susan Blackwell: So I just anyway, it's I think it's fascinating.

[1:09:49] Laura Camien: I do too.

[1:09:49] Susan Blackwell: Tell me more.

[1:09:50] Laura Camien: Okay, so um, you can get I as a person who has spent my entire life completely out of touch with this, I'm actually like taking this, I'm taking this to heart. And I've decided I'm going to get in touch with this because if I can, I'm gonna make some hay while the sun is shining. Um, you can get notifications of these phase changes when you download the My Flow app. Uh, you can get it through the App Store. You can get it through MyFlowTracker.com, which I totally did because after my 50 million periods, I am going to make this shit work for me.

[1:10:23] Susan Blackwell: 50 million and one.

[1:10:24] Laura Camien: 50 million tracks about to come.

[1:10:27] Susan Blackwell: Um, she also details what type of nutrition and exercise we can use to further support ourselves during these four phases. One thing that I loved is during the menstrual phase, she said naps can count as your workout for the day.

[1:10:43] Laura Camien: Oh yes.

[1:10:45] Susan Blackwell: Which if you're like a modern type A perfectionist like I doesn't count. Nap doesn't count.

[1:10:52] Laura Camien: Nap puts me in the negative.

[1:10:54] Susan Blackwell: And you feel bad that you're not feeling 100%.

[1:10:58] Laura Camien: That's right.

[1:10:58] Susan Blackwell: That's right. Um, she wouldn't use those words though. I think she would not, she wouldn't say that you're compromised during this time. You're just attuned with sort of you're at a different place. She talks a lot about how important rest is, a sentiment that my meditation teacher Emily Fletcher, hi Emily, sums up succinctly with the phrase that I think I've said before on this podcast: rest is an activity. Alisa Viti says, all living things go through periods of activity and rest, expansion and retraction. Think of the growth pattern of a field. Farmers understand that they need to rotate their crops, allowing the harvested soil to rest and replenish itself, or it will not produce. We need to follow these same patterns to optimize our hormones and biological systems so we can reach our greatest potential.

She this is from her book. I love the way Julia Cameron, the best-selling author of The Artist's Way, writes about the importance of fallow time being non-negotiable in the creative process. So it's kind of like cutting ourselves this slack during all these periods. Um, not this just the ones where we're just like hard charging boss ladies.

[1:12:07] Laura Camien: Right.

[1:12:08] Susan Blackwell: She goes on. These same patterns hold true for our bodies. If you're constantly doing, you aren't giving your brain and body the rest they need to restore your creative juices. We need to have fallow days to re-energize our minds, bodies, and creativity. Instead of expecting to add ever more to your overwhelming to do list every day and relying on artificial energy boosters, take time to connect to your body and get grounded. Look for inspiration. Take a walk in nature, watch your dog or cat playing, dance to your favorite song, stretch your body, give your brain and body time to explore possibilities you never imagined. In this way, you refresh your hormones and biological systems rather than draining them so you can feel more energetic and be on top of your game.

[1:12:53] Laura Camien: I love this because she's talking about rest, yes, but she's also talking about gently collecting sparks.

[1:12:59] Susan Blackwell: Yes.

[1:13:00] Laura Camien: Which you know, we are always here for.

[1:13:02] Susan Blackwell: Always here for it.

[1:13:03] Laura Camien: Speaking of, so many sparks are popping off for me with this. In the Sparks File workshop, we talk about these different phases of the creative process.

[1:13:12] Susan Blackwell: That's right.

[1:13:12] Laura Camien: Gathering creative sparks. It's all about cultivation and curiosity, fanning those sparks into creative flames. It's all about creating making and sharing the light, which is all about communicating. I feel like if you throw in a little administrative organization and a little contemplation rest in there, it's a really nice complement to our Infradian cycles, which follow the pattern of initiation, growth, completion, and rest, or to use Elisa's active terms prepare, open up, work, rest.

[1:13:41] Susan Blackwell: I love how all of these cycles kind of we know these, we know these truths to be self-evident.

[1:13:49] Laura Camien: But it's so easy when we're grinding and pounding and trying to always be like at the hot peak of productivity, yeah, to forget that there are times where we're resting, there are times when we are being bored.

[1:13:49] Susan Blackwell: There are times when we're just gathering sparks and looking for that gem that's gonna move us into our next period of creativity.

[1:14:09] Laura Camien: That's right.

[1:14:10] Susan Blackwell: I love it.

[1:14:11] Laura Camien: That's right.

[1:14:11] Susan Blackwell: Another spark I take from this is one to have some basic awareness of where I am at in my cycle, and then lightly planning key pieces of work at optimum times during that cycle.

[1:14:24] Laura Camien: She does acknowledge to your point, Camille, that this is not always possible.

[1:14:28] Susan Blackwell: And she says, remember that you can do anything in any phase.

[1:14:32] Laura Camien: You're infinitely creative, communicative, collaborative, and more.

[1:14:35] Susan Blackwell: But there is a natural ebb and flow to these energies.

[1:14:38] Laura Camien: Working with your cyclical strengths infuses you with more energy, so you have more time to focus on the things you want to do and have energy to spare to handle those time-sensitive projects.

[1:14:48] Susan Blackwell: So it's fine to do tasks that are out of sync with your cycle, but they will create a slightly bigger energy drain on your system, which I think she has the research to back up that I feel in my body.

[1:15:01] Laura Camien: 100%.

[1:15:02] Susan Blackwell: And just having this awareness, I think is gonna change a lot for me because I can sit down to do like let's say a spreadsheet, and on a certain day, be like, this is so hard.

[1:15:14] Laura Camien: Yeah, I mean other days, yeah.

[1:15:16] Susan Blackwell: I'm like last week, it's like clickety click.

[1:15:18] Laura Camien: Exactly.

[1:15:19] Susan Blackwell: I was amazing, and I went for six hours tireless, and I got it all done.

[1:15:22] Laura Camien: And why can't I do that today?

[1:15:24] Susan Blackwell: Why can't I have that every day?

[1:15:26] Laura Camien: Yeah.

[1:15:26] Susan Blackwell: Because we're not built like that.

[1:15:28] Laura Camien: That's right.

[1:15:28] Susan Blackwell: We're not built like that.

[1:15:29] Laura Camien: That's right.

[1:15:29] Susan Blackwell: And I think for a long time, we have been comparing ourselves to the male circadian rhythms.

[1:15:37] Laura Camien: Yeah.

[1:15:38] Susan Blackwell: Yeah.

[1:15:38] Laura Camien: Uh, which is uh compare and despair, I think.

[1:15:41] Susan Blackwell: Yeah.

[1:15:41] Laura Camien: You know, for sure.

[1:15:42] Susan Blackwell: Alisa goes on to say, because you have a second clock, you have an internal code or preferred performance pattern in your body.

[1:15:51] Laura Camien: All you have to do to feel the best possible way and to live the life you want for yourself is to align with this pattern and support it as much as you can.

[1:15:58] Susan Blackwell: You don't have to try to extend your energy in a 24-hour pattern because you have the expanse of 28 days to play with.

[1:16:07] Laura Camien: Oh, interesting.

[1:16:08] Susan Blackwell: When you run out of energy today, you can stop and rest, knowing that you have a whole variety of energy and creativity to play with over the whole month.

[1:16:16] Laura Camien: Now, this actually heartens me because Cammy, I feel like not every day, and I'm trying to go easy on myself, but almost every day, I feel like I have failed the day because I didn't get more things crossed off of my bullet journal to-do list.

[1:16:33] Susan Blackwell: There are some days in the month where I kill it and I would love to live there all the time.

[1:16:38] Laura Camien: Yeah.

[1:16:39] Susan Blackwell: But it would be, I think, in conflict with this Infradian rhythm that she's describing.

[1:16:43] Laura Camien: So it also just heartens me because I'm like, tomorrow's another day.

[1:16:43] Susan Blackwell: Tomorrow's another day.

[1:16:47] Laura Camien: And we're looking at it in a 28 day.

[1:16:50] Susan Blackwell: We got the not we got the mid to long range gaze on this.

[1:16:54] Laura Camien: Not just like 24 hours, what did I do or not do?

[1:16:57] Susan Blackwell: That's right.

[1:16:57] Laura Camien: Fail.

[1:16:58] Susan Blackwell: That's right.

[1:16:58] Laura Camien: Fail.

[1:16:59] Susan Blackwell: That's right.

[1:17:00] Laura Camien: She also gives the example of managing your energy as opposed to managing your time.

[1:17:05] Susan Blackwell: So for instance, looking at the 20 things on her to-do list, then looking at the arc of her month and considering what would give her maximum efficiency and creativity while allowing her to maintain a high level of self-care, evaluating her task list and then carefully curating what what's really worth doing based on what would be most enjoyable and rewarding.

[1:17:26] Laura Camien: Actively ignoring the inner vampire that said she needed to do everything to get ahead and to do it now.

[1:17:32] Susan Blackwell: And then she parses out her task list and maps it into her cycle phase by phase.

[1:17:37] Laura Camien: And she said suddenly it all seems infinitely more doable.

[1:17:41] Susan Blackwell: And she goes from feeling overwhelmed to feeling energized.

[1:17:44] Laura Camien: Wow.

[1:17:45] Susan Blackwell: It's interesting to me.

[1:17:46] Laura Camien: Wow.

[1:17:47] Susan Blackwell: Yeah.

[1:17:48] Laura Camien: Um just like a I know I my mind immediately is like, how are we going to do this?

[1:17:55] Susan Blackwell: Except for the things that are due when they're due.

[1:17:58] Laura Camien: That I know have any flexibility.

[1:18:01] Susan Blackwell: Yes.

[1:18:02] Laura Camien: But I feel like the more and more as you and I build our life and our business together, yeah.

[1:18:08] Susan Blackwell: We could actually implement this.

[1:18:11] Laura Camien: Interesting.

[1:18:13] Susan Blackwell: And it doesn't always have to.

[1:18:14] Laura Camien: I don't think anything that you try to do perfectly perfect is fun, but it's something to keep in mind.

[1:18:21] Susan Blackwell: Yeah.

[1:18:21] Laura Camien: It's something like schedule in such a way that we're working with our strengths.

[1:18:25] Susan Blackwell: Yes.

[1:18:26] Laura Camien: And not fighting when we need a nap.

[1:18:29] Susan Blackwell: Yeah.

[1:18:29] Laura Camien: But it starts with fucking having a clue of when the stuff is happening.

[1:18:33] Susan Blackwell: Oh, yeah.

[1:18:33] Laura Camien: There's that.

[1:18:34] Susan Blackwell: Just a little side spark.

[1:18:36] Laura Camien: I really like how inclusive her book is.

[1:18:38] Susan Blackwell: She writes what if you're trans, non-binary, or taking estrogen or testosterone as you undergo gender transition?

[1:18:45] Laura Camien: How you self-identify or wherever you are in your gender journey, understand that working with your unique reality is available to everyone.

[1:18:53] Susan Blackwell: How should you approach using the cycle sinking method if you're transgender, for example?

[1:18:58] Laura Camien: For people transitioning to female, following this program may help you feel more connected to your feminine energy, even if you're not menstruating.

[1:19:05] Susan Blackwell: For those who are transitioning to male but still menstruating, you may prefer to get in tune with the more linear 24-hour male pattern.

[1:19:12] Laura Camien: In that case, you may not want to follow a cyclical program.

[1:19:16] Susan Blackwell: The bottom line is it's entirely up to you.

[1:19:19] Laura Camien: And I just really like that.

[1:19:21] Susan Blackwell: I like that she took, I appreciated that she took the time.

[1:19:24] Laura Camien: Absolutely.

[1:19:25] Susan Blackwell: So what has been made of this?

[1:19:27] Laura Camien: Yeah.

[1:19:27] Susan Blackwell: Well, um, Alisa Vitti has written two books, as I mentioned.

[1:19:31] Laura Camien: She has a very sophisticated app, a health practice in New York City, and all sorts of other entrepreneurial irons in the fire.

[1:19:38] Susan Blackwell: She really took this medical crisis that she experienced and made it her life's work.

[1:19:44] Laura Camien: I am always fascinated by that.

[1:19:46] Susan Blackwell: Martha Beck has that great saying that I've quoted before whatever your hell and back is, that is your gift.

[1:19:53] Laura Camien: We would say whatever your hell and back is, that can be your spark.

[1:19:56] Susan Blackwell: And I think that she really has done that.

[1:20:00] Laura Camien: She gets an enormous amount done.

[1:20:03] Susan Blackwell: And I'm fascinated that she, I think, in large part has done it according to her Infradian rhythms, which I think is fascinating.

[1:20:11] Laura Camien: Yep.

[1:20:12] Susan Blackwell: In her book In the Flow, Elisa Vitti writes, the US women's soccer team players follow the unique timing of their individual cycles to map out the most effective training and resting schedule, as well as a dietary approach to maximize their energy and recovery.

[1:20:28] Laura Camien: So, in the appropriate work environment, you could create a system of workflow that gently reflects the Amphradian rhythms of your team.

[1:20:36] Susan Blackwell: I am amazed.

[1:20:38] Laura Camien: Isn't that interesting?

[1:20:39] Susan Blackwell: And inspired by that.

[1:20:40] Laura Camien: Isn't that interesting?

[1:20:41] Susan Blackwell: Yes.

[1:20:42] Laura Camien: Yes, yes, thinking about how.

[1:20:52] Susan Blackwell: Like if they weren't doing the work of like there's there are women who are literally giving their life to making periods more understandable.

[1:21:02] Laura Camien: Yeah.

[1:21:03] Susan Blackwell: Um, something we're allowed to talk about, out in the open, no shame, understanding our cycles.

[1:21:09] Laura Camien: Like these women are doing the hard work that we'll reflect back on, I think years from now and say, Oh my God, what if they hadn't done that work?

[1:21:17] Susan Blackwell: I'm so thankful that they did.

[1:21:19] Laura Camien: Yeah.

[1:21:20] Susan Blackwell: Yeah.

[1:21:21] Laura Camien: So what do we make of it?

[1:21:22] Susan Blackwell: Again, I say to you, what if we ran the Sparks file this way?

[1:21:26] Laura Camien: What if we number one, it starts with educating ourselves, knowing where we're at in the infradian uh rhythm and getting in flow with it and getting our cycles synced with these different um different uh sequences in this.

[1:21:45] Susan Blackwell: Basically, like working like like with the wind and not against the winds.

[1:21:49] Laura Camien: That's right.

[1:21:50] Susan Blackwell: With the wind.

[1:21:52] Laura Camien: Just with the wind.

[1:21:53] Susan Blackwell: Yes, absolutely.

[1:21:54] Laura Camien: I think it might be worthwhile to look at this.

[1:21:58] Susan Blackwell: I'll just speak for myself for my um individual creativity.

[1:22:02] Laura Camien: Yeah, that I know that there are gonna be times when I am gonna writing is gonna come more easily, spark finding is gonna come more easily.

[1:22:12] Susan Blackwell: Um, getting a lot of administrative stuff is gonna come more easily.

[1:22:16] Laura Camien: Also having that um, like I think about the e myth, how within a single entrepreneur, there's the visionary who like sees the business from like 10,000 feet and can come up with ideas about like what the future might look like and how to make it scalable and things like that yeah then there's the manager who like keeps the like the business running who keeps people paid who keeps you know the lights on and then there's the the person who's actually like baking the pies the person who's actually like doing that like boots on the ground work and I think that there are times that line up with this Ephradian rhythm where sometimes I don't feel like a visionary around our business for instance but I think there may be certain times of the month where I am more inclined to be like Camion what if yes five years from now that's right we pictured this like that is correct.

[1:23:08] Laura Camien: Yeah so kind of getting attuned with that in my own work and and the work we do together.

[1:23:13] Susan Blackwell: Yeah.

[1:23:14] Laura Camien: Another spark if you identify as female translating this to your particular creative discipline whether you're a singer or a writer or a woodworker or a dancer, uh a teaching artist, a theater maker I think it's a potentially fun game to see how this Amphradian cycle might work for all of us in our disciplines.

[1:23:37] Susan Blackwell: So that that's yeah this is fascinated.

[1:23:42] Laura Camien: I am fascinated for real like I I think about like how much um I don't know pain I would save myself for by one having the awareness and not beating myself up when I try to you know go against the grain and do something that you know it's one thing like like we've acknowledged like you have there's certain things you have to do.

[1:24:01] Susan Blackwell: You didn't get to set the deadline, you didn't get to say what time frame you want to do it in.

[1:24:07] Laura Camien: External deliverables, but maybe to give yourself more time to do it if if that's the case, um, and be more patient with yourself and be kinder to yourself in those moments because you're aware of where you are.

[1:24:20] Susan Blackwell: Yeah, and knowing, like I think of us, for example, if we schedule the new year's creativity workshop, and those first weekend dates in January land on me being like right in the middle of the menstrual phase, knowing that like you may take want to be taking the lead of the heavy lifting when it comes to communication.

[1:24:44] Laura Camien: That's right, because you're you aren't in that mode at that moment.

[1:24:48] Susan Blackwell: It's it might take me a little a few more hours to warm up into the talking.

[1:24:53] Laura Camien: Do you know what I mean?

[1:24:54] Susan Blackwell: I do just things like that.

[1:24:56] Laura Camien: If I knew where you were at in your Euphredian rhythm and you knew where I was, yeah, it might be easier for us to just be able to accommodate each other.

[1:25:06] Susan Blackwell: Yeah, and uh when we assign tasks, be like, why don't I take that one today?

[1:25:10] Laura Camien: Yeah.

[1:25:15] Susan Blackwell: Totally.

[1:25:16] Laura Camien: I'm into it.

[1:25:17] Susan Blackwell: It's a common language, you know, that we need in a common understanding.

[1:25:20] Laura Camien: Yeah, yeah.

[1:25:21] Susan Blackwell: Yeah, love it.

[1:25:23] Laura Camien: So that is my spark.

[1:25:24] Susan Blackwell: Oh my god, that was the most gentleman.

[1:25:28] Laura Camien: I hope you enjoyed that.

[1:25:29] Susan Blackwell: Was it yeah?

[1:25:31] Laura Camien: You weren't expecting that?

[1:25:32] Susan Blackwell: I was not expecting that at all, at all.

[1:25:36] Laura Camien: But I'm fascinated.

[1:25:37] Susan Blackwell: Yeah, yeah.

[1:25:38] Laura Camien: I I'm into it, and um I look forward to kind of in a very like gentle way, just sort of seeing where it takes us and where it takes me.

[1:25:48] Susan Blackwell: Weave it in.

[1:25:49] Laura Camien: So that's it.

[1:25:50] Susan Blackwell: I guess this is it.

[1:25:51] Laura Camien: I hope this is put another bunch of sparks in your file.

[1:25:55] Susan Blackwell: Listen, if there's a spark you'd like us to explore, or if you've taken a spark and fanned it into a creative flame and you'd like to share that, oh, I hope you will, because we do love it when you please.

[1:26:07] Laura Camien: Please.

[1:26:07] Susan Blackwell: And we do try to get back to you.

[1:26:08] Laura Camien: It might take a little bit longer than we want it to, but we do try.

[1:26:12] Susan Blackwell: So please write respect our Amphradian rhythms.

[1:26:15] Laura Camien: Um you can write us at thesparkfile at gmail.com or submit it through our website, thesparkfile.com.

[1:26:22] Susan Blackwell: And if we love it, we may put it in the mailbag to share out to celebrate.

[1:26:26] Laura Camien: That's right.

[1:26:28] Susan Blackwell: And as always, we will be happy to take your feedback, but you know the price of admission.

[1:26:34] Laura Camien: First, you gotta share a risk, a creative risk that you have taken recently.

[1:26:39] Susan Blackwell: Oh, also, if you are so inclined, follow us on social media at the Sparks File and be sure to subscribe to this podcast wherever you get your podcasts.

[1:26:47] Laura Camien: If you like some light homework, subscribe, rate, five-star review it.

[1:26:52] Susan Blackwell: If you like this podcast, we hope you'll share it with people that you love.

[1:26:55] Laura Camien: If you didn't like it, you tried one bite.

[1:26:59] Susan Blackwell: That's all we can ask.

[1:27:01] Laura Camien: Thanks.

[1:27:02] Susan Blackwell: If something tickles your fancy and gets your creative juices flowing, we are writing you a forever permission slip to make that thing that has been knocking at your door.

[1:27:12] Laura Camien: It's your turn to take a spark and fan it into a flame.

[1:27:16] Susan Blackwell: You gotta craft a ceramic bowl.

[1:27:18] Laura Camien: You gotta lead the band like jelly roll.

[1:27:21] Susan Blackwell: You gotta do like Flansburg and Lynelle and build a little birdhouse in your soul.

[1:27:26] Laura Camien: Those are some deep cuts.

[1:27:31] Susan Blackwell: Bye bye, Deep Cut.

[1:27:34] Laura Camien: Bye.

[1:27:35] Susan Blackwell: And then next up, the Amphradian rhythms.

[1:27:38] Laura Camien: Playing fascinating rhythm.

[1:27:40] Susan Blackwell: When I bump into something that inspires me, I dump it in my spark files.

[1:27:49] Laura Camien: Could be something that I wanna make or how I wanna be.

[1:27:54] Susan Blackwell: I pump it in my spark files.

[1:27:59] Laura Camien: I jump into my spark file.

[1:28:04] Susan Blackwell: Let's open up the spark fi.