This transcript was automatically generated and might contain errors.

[0:10] Laura Camien: When I bump into something that inspires me, I jump in my spark file.

[0:18] Susan Blackwell: Spark file to be something that I wanna make or how I wanna be. I pump it in my spark spot. Spark!

[0:28] Laura Camien: I jump into my sparks! Let's open up the spark file!

[0:36] Susan Blackwell: Welcome to the Sparks File, where we believe that everyone is creative, but smart creative people don't go it alone.

[0:43] Laura Camien: I'm Laura Camien.

[0:44] Susan Blackwell: And I'm Susan Blackwell, and we are creativity coaches who help people fear less, create more, and bring their creative visions to life.

[0:52] Laura Camien: If you are an OG member of the Sparks File community, welcome back, Sparkler.

[0:58] Susan Blackwell: If you are hearing the sounds of my dogs tangling in the background, know that they're just little dogs.

[1:03] Laura Camien: They can't do much harm.

[1:04] Susan Blackwell: They won't hurt you. And if you're joining us for the first time, welcome, friend.

[1:08] Laura Camien: Know that just by listening to this podcast, you're joined by a warm and wonderful clan of creatives.

[1:14] Susan Blackwell: But hold the phone. You may be asking yourself, what exactly is a spark file?

[1:15] Laura Camien: A spark file is a place where you consistently collect all of your inspirations and all of your fascinations.

[1:26] Susan Blackwell: And if you're like us and you're making stuff all the time, or you want to be making stuff all the time, you know that if you're not careful, your campfire of creativity can flicker out.

[1:34] Laura Camien: But please don't despair. We are collecting kindling in the form of fresh ideas, images, and inspiration that spark creativity and pique curiosity to light a fire under our collective asses to make things like this podcast.

[1:51] Susan Blackwell: Or a healthy conscious relationship between creatives and their money.

[1:57] Laura Camien: Woo! Ooh, money.

[2:00] Susan Blackwell: Every episode, we're gonna reach into our spark files and exchange some sparks.

[2:04] Laura Camien: And from time to time, we're also gonna talk to some folks who spark us too.

[2:08] Susan Blackwell: That means we have more sparks than we can possibly use in this lifetime.

[2:12] Laura Camien: Boy, do we ever. So if something lights you up, we encourage you to take that thing and make something out of it.

[2:20] Susan Blackwell: Without further ado, let's open up the spark file.

[2:27] Laura Camien: Welcome to the spark file. Hi, Suze.

[2:29] Susan Blackwell: Featuring appearances by Kitty Bunny and POTUS who are fighting over space on the radiator.

[2:35] Laura Camien: What is so cute is like they've never shown up in our intro before.

[2:38] Susan Blackwell: I mean, they're always around, but they really made themselves known today.

[2:41] Laura Camien: I feel like POTUS has really made his mark on this podcast by snoring gently in the background of a recording or two.

[2:48] Susan Blackwell: Always from inside your sweatshirt.

[2:50] Laura Camien: Always from deep inside my sweatshirt, near my desk where I am podcasting right now.

[2:56] Susan Blackwell: There is a radiator, and I put a soft blanket over the top of it and a tiny set of stairs leading up to it.

[3:03] Laura Camien: Come on.

[3:04] Susan Blackwell: So that they can crawl up there and lay there and just toasted, like just little toasted dogs.

[3:11] Laura Camien: Because they're these little dogs. They're not supposed to be in this cold climate.

[3:16] Susan Blackwell: And I feel like it's the least I can do for them. But when I open the door to my office, when they hear me open that door, they run to see who can get to the radiator first so that they can stretch out and block the other one from getting on the radiator.

[3:32] Laura Camien: So what you just heard, maybe in the background was just a little negotiating.

[3:36] Susan Blackwell: A negotiation.

[3:37] Laura Camien: A negotiation.

[3:38] Susan Blackwell: A tiny dog negotiation.

[3:40] Laura Camien: Those little sweeties, they are the cutest. How are you doing, Laura Camien?

[3:44] Laura Camien: Oh, I'm good. I'm excited to hear your spark tonight.

[3:48] Susan Blackwell: You have piqued my curiosity.

[3:50] Laura Camien: I've got to spark you.

[3:53] Susan Blackwell: You're gonna spark me. Is there anything that you want to share with us, me and the people who are listening before we launch?

[4:01] Laura Camien: Just you know, I last I think last week did we talk about chatter, the chatter in our heads, I think.

[4:07] Susan Blackwell: Our inner chatter.

[4:08] Laura Camien: Yeah. And um, and and the good purpose that it serves, you know, if it develops in a healthy direction.

[4:16] Susan Blackwell: Yeah.

[4:17] Laura Camien: And we may have posted this, honestly. I'm not sure if we posted it on our social channels or not. But did you see that little viral video of this like four-year-old snowboarder?

[4:29] Susan Blackwell: Did you see this?

[4:30] Laura Camien: Is he dressed like a little tiny dinosaur?

[4:32] Susan Blackwell: Uh no, but dinosaurs are mentioned, um, ironically, in it.

[4:36] Laura Camien: I don't think. Are you sure they're not dressed like a tiny snowboarding dinosaur?

[4:41] Susan Blackwell: They might be. I didn't notice that. Tell me more, Laura Camien.

[4:45] Laura Camien: Um, well, their parents like mic'd their snowboarding suit. And I guess they do this on other videos as well, just because they want to capture these memories and have a fuller perspective, you know, not just the adults' voices in the video, but their kids' voices.

[5:02] Susan Blackwell: So this child is like starting to go down the mountain, and they're like talking to themselves essentially.

[5:09] Laura Camien: And they're just saying things like, Oh, I hope I don't fall. Oh, but it's okay. If I do fall, it's okay. We all fall, and just kind of talking themselves through the whole thing.

[5:22] Susan Blackwell: And it was just a perfect example of what uh we talked about last week in chatter. Like it's a very important developmental stage in how we learn to do things and also like essentially lay the foundation for our attitude about failure, our attitude about risk.

[5:39] Laura Camien: Yeah.

[5:40] Susan Blackwell: And my heart was so warmed by that. Anytime I see a kid doing that, I'm just like, keep that, keep that, please keep that.

[5:46] Laura Camien: Yeah. Keep that your whole life.

[5:48] Susan Blackwell: This idea of like, yeah, I might try this and I might fall flat on my face, and I'm gonna be okay. We all fall, and that's cool.

[5:56] Laura Camien: It reminds me of what you and I have talked about before: this concept of like reparenting your creativity, yes, and how you talk to yourself, and you know all of that goodness.

[6:06] Susan Blackwell: And the second point I want to make is I'm almost certain that kid is wearing a dinosaur onesie.

[6:11] Laura Camien: I believe you. I totally believe you. I just didn't notice that as much as I noticed the chatter.

[6:16] Susan Blackwell: I was fixated on what a sweet little voice, first of all.

[6:21] Laura Camien: Sweet voice.

[6:22] Susan Blackwell: I want to go up this big old hill, old hill, like they pronounce every syllable about I can't even do it. It's just so freaking cute.

[6:33] Laura Camien: Well, I won't spoil it for you. If you haven't seen it, just look for it online. Just four-year-old snowboarder, you'll find it.

[6:39] Susan Blackwell: This also reminds me of a conversation that we were just having with our creativity group, and we were talking about different sort of permutations of getting to a place where you can write or be self-expressed in a very free way.

[6:55] Laura Camien: And one of the ways that stops us from being freely self-expressed in our creativity is that negative chatter, that negative inner chatter that we can have.

[7:05] Susan Blackwell: And one of the group members said something that I loved so much, which is, and a tiny, tiny tip of my invisible hat to group member Cecily.

[7:16] Laura Camien: Cecily makes this bomb ass banana pudding.

[7:18] Susan Blackwell: That is a quote from Cecily.

[7:20] Laura Camien: That is a quote. Bomb ass banana pudding.

[7:22] Susan Blackwell: Like it is so good that Cecily makes it and takes it to parties and people really, really, really look forward to it.

[7:32] Laura Camien: Like she likes stays up, she pushes herself to like stay up all night because she knows like this will blow their minds if I can just make this banana pudding.

[7:41] Susan Blackwell: And she said, that is now how I write. I write as if people are going to receive this writing as they receive my bomb ass banana pudding.

[7:52] Laura Camien: And I was like, that is good. That's good, healthy inner chatter.

[7:58] Susan Blackwell: It sure is. It sure is.

[8:01] Laura Camien: If you made things like you believed that they were going to be really, really embraced, well received.

[8:07] Susan Blackwell: People are gonna be excited when you walk to that party with that tree.

[8:10] Laura Camien: Yes!

[8:11] Susan Blackwell: They're gonna devour this.

[8:12] Laura Camien: Yes.

[8:13] Susan Blackwell: We're going to talk about it for days.

[8:15] Laura Camien: It's yeah, delicious. I love that so much.

[8:19] Susan Blackwell: And you and I have been talking recently about things that we are making.

[8:23] Laura Camien: That's right.

[8:24] Susan Blackwell: And for whatever reason, it put me in this really, really fearful place.

[8:29] Laura Camien: And I loved Cecily's reframe on that. What if? What if the whole world receives it?

[8:35] Susan Blackwell: So that is now code for us for our group, Bomb Ass Banana Pudding.

[8:39] Laura Camien: What if? I have to tell you, it made me so happy.

[8:44] Susan Blackwell: It's as happy as a snowboarder in a dinosaur onesie.

[8:49] Laura Camien: With some positive inner chatter.

[8:52] Susan Blackwell: Laura Camien, would you like it?

[8:54] Laura Camien: Can I interest you in a spark?

[8:55] Susan Blackwell: I will take a spark. Thanks, Suze.

[8:58] Laura Camien: I've got one for you. Here we go. Serve it up.

[9:01] Susan Blackwell: So, Laura, years ago, I think I've told you this, but maybe I haven't, and I don't remember. And listeners maybe have told you this and I don't remember, but here we go.

[9:10] Laura Camien: Years ago, I took part in a course offered by the Actors Fund.

[9:15] Susan Blackwell: Uh, first of all, Laura, I know you know the Actors Fund, but if you don't know the Actors Fund, you really should.

[9:21] Laura Camien: It was founded in 1882, and it's a national human services organization here in the United States that supports anyone in the entertainment industry.

[9:31] Susan Blackwell: So even though the word actors is in the title, it's really for anyone in the entertainment industry.

[9:37] Laura Camien: And they do amazing work.

[9:40] Susan Blackwell: They provide a wide variety of services, including, but not limited to emergency financial assistance for artists.

[9:47] Laura Camien: Amazing.

[9:48] Susan Blackwell: Affordable housing, health care, insurance counseling, senior care. There's like an actor's fund retirement home, Laura, but also secondary career development.

[9:59] Laura Camien: So many different kinds of classes.

[10:01] Susan Blackwell: Laura and I actually built this business, the Sparks File, with the support of the Actors Fund in the form of a class for entrepreneurs that we took there.

[10:10] Laura Camien: And um, many years before that, I took a course sponsored by the Actors Fund that literally changed the course of my life.

[10:21] Susan Blackwell: So this class, it was like a small group seminar. I can't believe this was free. The Actors Fund is bananas. This was free.

[10:30] Laura Camien: It was a small group class.

[10:32] Susan Blackwell: It was led by a psychotherapist named Annette Lieberman.

[10:36] Laura Camien: Annette, along with a woman named Vicki Lindner, had co-written a book called The Money Mirror, How Money Reflects Women's Desires, Fears, and Desires.

[10:46] Susan Blackwell: And Annette led us through this series of exercises and discussions that were aimed at exploring and transforming this group of artists' relationship with money.

[10:58] Laura Camien: So Annette was asking questions that I had never considered.

[11:04] Susan Blackwell: Questions about like what were our earliest recollections of money? How did our parents deal with money? How did their parents deal with money?

[11:12] Laura Camien: It was so eye-opening.

[11:15] Susan Blackwell: And it was in that class, Laura. This is amazing to me because I was not super young, but it was in that class that I learned how to articulate a well-formed goal.

[11:25] Laura Camien: Oh, how interesting.

[11:27] Susan Blackwell: I had never understood the steps of a well-formed goal and how to parse it and declare it and achieve it before that class.

[11:36] Laura Camien: And how long was this class, by the way?

[11:38] Susan Blackwell: Oh, good. I'm gonna say it was like two months, and we met weekly once a week.

[11:44] Laura Camien: Wow. That's interesting.

[11:46] Susan Blackwell: Yeah, and it was a small group, and you had to apply for it, and you had to do an in-person interview with her to be accepted into the group.

[11:55] Laura Camien: And I'm sure that they were just trying to find like a foundationally balanced sort of sane group of people.

[12:00] Susan Blackwell: Yeah.

[12:01] Laura Camien: Who were serious about like doing the work and show up and who were yep, yep, yep. Suze, will you forgive me if I go back just a moment to the Actors Fund thing?

[12:10] Susan Blackwell: Because if I've been sounding silent over here, it's because I was trying to jog my memory. I was like, the Actors Fund, we've talked about that on the Sparks File. What was that connection?

[12:20] Laura Camien: And it's coming to me now. Edwin Forrest, one of the actors that was being fought over in the Astor Place riots.

[12:29] Susan Blackwell: Oh my God.

[12:30] Laura Camien: In his later years, he you know was a philanthropist and created this home. I think it was in New Jersey, like Englewood, New Jersey.

[12:40] Susan Blackwell: Uh-huh.

[12:41] Laura Camien: And then at some point it folded into the Actors Fund retirement home for, you know, for performers and actors.

[12:51] Susan Blackwell: So I was just like, ding ding-ding, there's a bell going off. And that's the sound though of how long it actually took for me to piece it together. My memory as you were talking, I was like, wait a minute.

[13:01] Susan Blackwell: Well, that's a deep cut.

[13:04] Laura Camien: Come on.

[13:05] Susan Blackwell: I'm proud of you for I would have never made that connection.

[13:07] Laura Camien: That's a super deep cut.

[13:08] Susan Blackwell: And I just want to clarify that it's not just for actors or performers, it's for anybody in the entertainment industry.

[13:15] Laura Camien: That's right.

[13:16] Susan Blackwell: And for years I've said, like, well, at least I know in my dotage, I can go live at the retirement home of the actors fund.

[13:23] Laura Camien: That's right.

[13:24] Susan Blackwell: Edwin Forrest was for performers. And then when he merged with the actors fund, that expands it so much bigger and broader. And anyway, so I'm 100% with you now. It took me just a minute to catch that memory and share it. Um, but I'm just yay to the actors fund. Yeah to the class we took together, and this one sounds amazing. And I wish I had had the opportunity. I feel like I just got super lucky. I was in the right place at the right time.

[13:56] Laura Camien: Yeah.

[13:56] Susan Blackwell: Something that we have asked a lot of really world-class artists on makersowed episodes of this podcast, is there a line of demarcation in your life that you're sort of like there's a before and an after? And this is actually one of those for me.

[14:09] Laura Camien: Is this class?

[14:13] Susan Blackwell: Can I ask you is this when you started tracking your money like in a tiny notebook?

[14:20] Laura Camien: You know it is.

[14:21] Susan Blackwell: So can I just say then for years I would judge myself against the standard of Susan Blackwell in this class because I would just be like Susan tracks every time she spends like she is so on top of it. Because I spent time with you during this time and anything that we did it would be like hold on I'm jotting down like to the penny exactly what I spent money on. And I probably I just compared and despaired for years because I'm like I don't have my shit together.

[14:54] Susan Blackwell: Well the reason why I was doing that is because I really really didn't have my shit together and it was just an exercise it was not virtuous it was just an exercise the reasoning behind it was to just slow my role and any time that money came in or went out that I just took that second literally that second to be like a dollar twenty five that I just for a moment came into the present and was like two dollars and seventy five cents. It was commendable and still is it was part of what I'm about to tell you it was really just life changing.

[15:32] Laura Camien: So it taught that, Susan, that behavior that you observed which I actually had forgotten about so thanks for the memories my God it's of such a clear memory to me being with you just bopping around New York City and stopping to write down everything.

[15:47] Susan Blackwell: It's because prior to that, I would just money would just flow out of my hands and I would get home and I would be like, How the hell did I spend $75 today?

[15:57] Laura Camien: Yeah.

[15:57] Susan Blackwell: I just went for a walk. Like, what the hell happened? There were some things at play that I'm going to talk about in a second. But this all, like me tracking my money at that time played into my goal that I set my first well-formed goal in this course. So at that time, I was this young actor. I was scraping by in New York City. I was temping and then like working in offices and appearing in like off-Broadway shows. And there were times when I had to make some tough choices about whether I would walk 30 blocks from the theater to my home or spend a dollar 25 on subway fare.

[16:33] Laura Camien: Oh my God.

[16:35] Susan Blackwell: Those remember those days, Laura Camien?

[16:37] Laura Camien: Oh, I do.

[16:38] Susan Blackwell: Mine would be like, yes, either I'm gonna have a slice of pizza for dinner or I'm going to buy a ride on the subway.

[16:46] Laura Camien: Yeah.

[16:46] Susan Blackwell: So I could have pizza but walk home, or I could ride home on the subway and then not have dinner.

[16:53] Laura Camien: Oh, we would stuff newspapers in our shoes for warmth.

[16:59] Susan Blackwell: Oh my god. Yes.

[17:02] Laura Camien: But that is what, you know, that was sort of, and then I started making a little bit more money, but you know, from time to time I would have to make the embarrassing stressful phone call to my parents to ask them for financial help, which I want to stress was a privilege to be sure. Many people do not have that luxury.

[17:23] Susan Blackwell: I did not. It was so painful, like it was so mortifying, and they weren't happy about it. And I mean, none of us are rolling in it. So I just wanted to reverse that. So with Annette's help, I set a goal, and that goal was to save $1,000 over the course of several months. And part of achieving that goal, one of my action steps was simply observing every penny that I spent, not judging it, but just writing it first in my little notebook. And I think eventually I started maybe putting it in. I didn't have a cell phone for a long time, but when I did, I started tracking it like in a notes app in my cell phone.

[18:06] Laura Camien: Yeah.

[18:07] Susan Blackwell: So I want to tell you, Laura Camien, full disclosure listeners, up to that point, I had never saved any money in my entire life. I just worked hard and I scraped by and I didn't really keep a close eye on my money because I didn't have much. Now that logic is very flawed, but that's how it was. Like I didn't have a lot, so I was just like, uh, this is too painful to look at too closely. So I just didn't.

[18:35] Laura Camien: Exactly.

[18:36] Susan Blackwell: I would work really, really hard and I would reward my hard work by doing things like ordering meals instead of cooking at home or buying myself a little something. Does that sound familiar, Laura?

[18:48] Laura Camien: I mean I heard that gasp, the gasp.

[18:52] Susan Blackwell: But I will tell you, then I took that class, I learned how to set a goal, I made my goal to save that $1,000, and I determined those action steps to get me there. And I'll be honest with you, I'm so thankful you jogged my memory because most of it was just about having money awareness. And that money awareness was just by writing a dollar 25. Just writing it down.

[19:12] Laura Camien: Yes, down in my little baby notebook.

[19:14] Susan Blackwell: So once I saved up that $1,000, I wrote my mom and dad a check for $1,000, and I mailed it to them. And they did not want to cash that check. They were like, we're not cashing this. And I was like, please cash it. It is my way of reversing the energetic flow of money.

[19:36] Laura Camien: Wow.

[19:36] Susan Blackwell: And it was also my way of drawing a boundary for myself. I decided I would never have to ask for them to bail me out again. And I never have. I have never asked for emergency financial help again. It totally changed my life. Now, again, this is super privileged. I have been well. I haven't had any major illness. Like, do you know what I mean? Like there's a lot of factors that go into me not having to ask for financial help.

[20:05] Laura Camien: 100%.

[20:07] Susan Blackwell: 100%. I am super proud of the fact that I set that goal. I achieved the goal. I reversed the flow.

[20:14] Laura Camien: Yeah.

[20:14] Susan Blackwell: And again, I'm very privileged, and I've been really lucky that I've been able to do that.

[20:20] Laura Camien: You have been privileged. And also I commend you for having the self-awareness to know the difference between a self-imposed need to ask for money from others versus an emergency and circumstances out of your control because there's no shame in that, obviously, when people are in that.

[20:40] Susan Blackwell: That's right. But you knew the difference. You were like, I think I'm making enough money to care for myself, but I'm not using it to the best of my ability.

[20:51] Laura Camien: To be honest, I probably wasn't. I was probably under-earning and overspending, but I was doing all of this. Like you're totally right, Laura Camien. You're 100% correct.

[21:03] Susan Blackwell: Well, I'm impressed that I mean, you know that that you knew that you were able to investigate that, question it, and say, I want to, I want to change this dynamic.

[21:13] Laura Camien: Investigation is the perfect word for that seminar that Annette Lieberman led.

[21:19] Susan Blackwell: It really was. And we'll get into that a little bit more in just a moment. But I will tell you, Laura and listeners, doing that, setting that goal, achieving it, and what felt like reversing that energetic financial flow, that relationship with my parents, gave me a real foundation of confidence. And one of the pieces of it was I learned that I could learn about money, not just how to set savings goals, but how to make money, how to handle it, how to respect it, how to invest it.

[21:52] Laura Camien: I just want to say disclaimer, even despite what Laura just said, and despite this very, very rosy anecdote that I'm sharing with you. I am not perfect with money. There are still so many things that I want to learn and refine. And depending on how busy I am or how much I'm earning or not earning, this stuff can really come in and out of focus for me.

[22:16] Susan Blackwell: But with each passing year, I refine my relationship with money and I like to tackle new things. Both my financial hygiene, like the nuts and bolts of how I track money and where I put it, but also mindset things like how I talk about money, how I feel about money, how I think about money, and my value and my worth as a creative and as an artist. I think it's really important to examine our relationship with money for us creatives.

[22:46] Laura Camien: And I think as artists, there are so many stories that we are fed about our relationship to money.

[22:53] Susan Blackwell: Yes.

[22:53] Laura Camien: That sometimes we consume without thinking twice about it.

[22:58] Susan Blackwell: So I want to talk about a concept.

[23:00] Laura Camien: Okay.

[23:01] Susan Blackwell: Bohemianism.

[23:02] Laura Camien: Oh, interesting.

[23:04] Susan Blackwell: Bohemianism. So according to dictionary.com, the concept of bohemianism originated in 19th century France. Bohemians were starving artists and thinkers, leading free, unconventional lives, often wandering from place to place. They were profiled in French author Henri Mougiere's 1851 novel, whose title translates to scenes of the Bohemian life, which became the basis for Puccini's 1896 opera La Bohème, which in turn provided the spark for Jonathan Larson's Rent and the breakout song La V Bohème.

[23:43] Laura Camien: So clearly, this idea of the starving but liberated artist has been a major spark of inspiration for creatives.

[23:50] Susan Blackwell: There's a romance for centuries.

[23:52] Laura Camien: Oh my god.

[23:53] Susan Blackwell: Centuries, yeah.

[23:54] Laura Camien: Literally.

[23:54] Susan Blackwell: I get it. Like I get the romance of it. When you think about the characters in Rent bopping around the East Village in 1994, I was living my own version of that in the West Village. Laura, I think you were living your own version of that as well.

[24:09] Laura Camien: I was indeed.

[24:12] Susan Blackwell: Where was I? I guess I was East Village as well, just a couple years after that.

[24:20] Laura Camien: Uh-huh.

[24:21] Susan Blackwell: Under-earning, struggling financially. Laura, I was eating at Dojo. I was eating at Live Cafe. I was eating at the Fez when my bank account wished I was cooking at home.

[24:31] Laura Camien: Oh, doing all of that.

[24:34] Susan Blackwell: What were you spending money on then? Do you remember?

[24:36] Laura Camien: Um, little thing called taxi cabs.

[24:40] Susan Blackwell: Oh, I love a taxi.

[24:42] Laura Camien: I love a taxi, probably. I'm like, but also, yeah, it had to be food, clothing, and transportation. I also feel like I was like candles, clothing.

[24:54] Susan Blackwell: Clothing.

[24:55] Laura Camien: I remember this was the era of like, hey, I'm out and about. I saw this deal at Banana Republic. I'm gonna get one for you too. Like you, you bought me shoes, I bought you sweaters. Like that's just you know what you did.

[25:10] Susan Blackwell: I would admire your skirt. You would buy me the skirt. And we again, I just want to stress. We had no business.

[25:16] Laura Camien: We had no business.

[25:20] Susan Blackwell: We have no business.

[25:19] Laura Camien: Yeah, no business.

[25:20] Susan Blackwell: We have no business. Credit cards, bullshit.

[25:24] Laura Camien: Oh my god.

[25:24] Susan Blackwell: Anyway, it was shortly after all of that bullshittery that I took this seminar at the Actors Fund and realized that I could be fully creative and not play into the stereotypes of the broke artist, the couch surfing artist, the scrounging artist.

[25:40] Laura Camien: Yes.

[25:41] Susan Blackwell: It's not that I wanted to be full-on money-obsessed, capitalistic either, but luckily it isn't an either-or choice. You don't have to be full-on Mimi or an all-out Benny. Those are Rent references, Laura Camien coming at you piping hot from the mid-90s.

[25:57] Laura Camien: Fresh.

[25:59] Susan Blackwell: Those are some fresh mid-90s Rent references.

[26:03] Laura Camien: We really we all contain multitudes, and we can be vibrant creatives and be financially clear-headed and healthy as well.

[26:12] Susan Blackwell: I mean, God, it took me too long to figure that out. Really truly too long. Well. But it is a wonderful feeling once you realize that. And it does not mean it's about the number in your bank account. It means it's about your relationship to money. For me, it's a lot about just peace and confidence.

[26:29] Laura Camien: Yeah.

[26:29] Susan Blackwell: Peace and confidence. Laura, I know I've talked with you about this. If I've said it on the podcast, please enjoy it again. But for years and I, Hunter Bell had this ongoing conversation, which is this. The question on the table was which is more stressful? Compromising yourself by working, working, working a job that might not feel like a perfect fit, but provides a stronger financial foundation, which was my path, or having more freedom and time to create, but living with financial uncertainty, which was more of Hunter's younger path.

[27:02] Laura Camien: Yeah.

[27:02] Susan Blackwell: And again, it's not either or, but those were our experiences that we were living and comparing and contrasting. I knew that for me, I just didn't want to be that bohemian couch surfer who was really unsure about my financial future, my insurance, my retirement. I always would rather personally compromise now and play a long game with an eye towards more financial freedom in the future. But that is not everybody's comfort.

[27:27] Laura Camien: That's not everyone's comfort.

[27:28] Susan Blackwell: But I have to say, like for me, it wasn't even I'm playing a long game. I could not feel a sense of freedom if I did not have some security. Because I think I've told you this story before, but I like hung with a circle of friends and we all talked about how broke we are. I'm so broke, I'm so broke. I'm like, I have 20 dollars in my account. I have $16 in my account, whatever. And I had a friend, hi Tim. And we would just trade back almost every other week when it was payday. It was like, can I borrow that 20? It's tight. And then like two weeks later, the other person would be like, Could I have that 20? Because I'm yeah. So it was that same 20 that was getting us by.

[28:11] Laura Camien: But then I remember discovering accidentally that this group of friends, no one was broke except me, in the sense of how I defined broke. And I mean broke by like I have $16 in my account. And if I run out of money, like my parent, I don't have anyone to call. They're going to be like, You have a roof over your head here in Kansas if you want it. And I appreciated that. Like I didn't ever, I didn't feel like I'm gonna be homeless. It was just like if you want to stay in New York, you're you're paying for yourself. You have to make your way. But I have these friends, like just accidentally. We were talking about our brokenness one day, and one of them said, Well, I mean, but I I do have that trust fund, but I'm not supposed to use it.

[28:52] Susan Blackwell: Oh.

[28:54] Laura Camien: And I was like, What? And then another one was like, I mean, I have this credit card, it's my dad's credit card. I'm not supposed to be like, you all are disqualified from this game. I was just, I honestly felt like, oh my god, am I? I'm just an idiot. I had no idea. Like, I thought when we all said we were broke, we all really were. So that was a wake-up call. But for me, I was like, I can't. It's either I have a job that I can feel secure about paying for my rent, or I go home to Kansas.

[29:24] Susan Blackwell: That's those are the options.

[29:25] Laura Camien: So you essentially were providing your own New York safety net, whereas some of our friends weren't necessarily counting that, but it's so interesting, and every single individual has a different comfort level.

[29:38] Susan Blackwell: That's right. So this isn't in my spark, but you know, it's sort of common wisdom that you want to have a buffer in the bank, like a little safety buffer in the bank. And for some people, that's like a month's cost saved, or I think the pandemic changed everyone's perspective on what that number is.

[29:55] Laura Camien: Yeah, and for some people it's three months, and for some people it's six months or three years. But everybody has different um sort of risk tolerances when it comes to this stuff.

[30:05] Susan Blackwell: Yeah, that's what I was gonna say. I did not have the risk tolerance of like, I'll wing it, and trust and keep because that sense of freedom, that creative freedom that you spoke of, like what if you're looking at the choices of like security versus creative freedom? I felt no creative freedom without feeling some security. It takes up a lot of bandwidth financial instability and fear.

[30:30] Laura Camien: So stressful to me.

[30:31] Susan Blackwell: There came a time in my life when the stress became intolerable, and I was like, I have got to get my arms around this, and that's probably when I signed up for this class.

[30:41] Laura Camien: Yeah, yeah.

[30:42] Susan Blackwell: And smart choice.

[30:43] Laura Camien: Yeah decision, Suze.

[30:45] Susan Blackwell: Thanks, Laura. So in case it's helpful to anyone, and I'm talking to myself here as well, I just wanted to share some thoughts on money mindset that have helped me to define my own financial narrative over the years. I want to acknowledge that this is a very deep and complex topic. It's a real spark to pus. So of course I'm not gonna cover it all today. But my hope is that it will provide some sparks of inspiration for people to take their financial well being to the next level, whatever that next level may be.

[31:19] Laura Camien: So a great place to begin thinking about this is summed up in a question that our coach, Jennifer Rosenfeld. Hi, Jennifer.

[31:28] Susan Blackwell: Hi, Jennifer. Jennifer said, if money were a person and that person was in a relationship with you, how would they describe the way you treated them?

[31:38] Laura Camien: Oh CMs, what do you think? If money were a person in your life, how would they describe the way you engage with them?

[31:46] Susan Blackwell: She pays no attention to me until she needs me to do something for her.

[31:51] Laura Camien: Oh basically.

[31:54] Susan Blackwell: That is like I'm gonna say that's probably the gist of it.

[31:58] Laura Camien: Okay.

[31:59] Susan Blackwell: All right. Until recently, I've paid more attention. I've like shown my uh my appreciation and nice.

[32:04] Laura Camien: I think that's I so honest.

[32:06] Susan Blackwell: I think my money would say that I am well intentioned towards it, but not always as attentive as money would like me to be. I am at time, I uh sometimes I'm one of those people who lavishes my finances with all sorts of attention, and then other responsibilities and creative projects and work and distractions rise up, and then I don't pay attention to my money for long periods of time.

[32:31] Laura Camien: I think money would say that I ghost.

[32:34] Susan Blackwell: I think that I think money would say that I ghost.

[32:37] Laura Camien: Yep, money's doing its thing, it's living its life, it's patiently waiting for my call.

[32:42] Susan Blackwell: And when my attention finally swings back around to it, I'm just so apologetic for not being present. And I promise money and I promise myself I'm gonna pay closer attention, and then I get distracted again. Now that like you were saying, Laura, that is changing now, but I think that is how it's been for kind of a long time.

[33:02] Laura Camien: Yeah, but it is also changing.

[33:05] Susan Blackwell: Like I pay attention to money much more closely these days, and I think honestly, it's because you and I pay attention to our money together.

[33:16] Laura Camien: I was gonna say, friends, if you want to like suddenly get a different lease on life in terms of your money, start a business.

[33:24] Susan Blackwell: Get a healthy collaborator, yeah.

[33:26] Laura Camien: Yeah, start a business with a healthy collaborator, and you will pay attention.

[33:30] Susan Blackwell: Yeah.

[33:31] Laura Camien: It's nice though, because we can offer each other, like when you're feeling down or feeling like you're treating money like a dick.

[33:38] Susan Blackwell: I can be like, it's okay. Today's a new day, and we can start it.

[33:41] Laura Camien: Or if I'm like, you know, we can sort of be there.

[33:43] Susan Blackwell: Money will forgive you. Just go back and talk to it.

[33:47] Laura Camien: Support each other.

[33:48] Susan Blackwell: And I do think it is one of those things that the more attentive we are. Now I'm not talking about being like Scrooge McDuck, just counting your doubloons. That's not what I'm talking about. It's the version of me that whenever I spent money would take a moment and record it in a little notebook to gently turn my attention towards it. It's just that. It's just being present with it.

[34:10] Laura Camien: It's a very real resource in our life.

[34:13] Susan Blackwell: And if you can set up some like healthy mindset around it and some good systems around it, it has been my experience that more money does seem to appear.

[34:23] Laura Camien: Enough that I could, for the first time in my life, save a thousand dollars and write that check to my parents.

[34:28] Susan Blackwell: Right.

[34:29] Laura Camien: Because I don't think it disappeared out of nowhere. I think you truly were like, wait, it's not gonna just pass through my hands like sand.

[34:37] Susan Blackwell: That's right. It is really was about being present with it. I believe that a lot of our mindset and fear around money comes from things that we learned, old stories we've learned, and that could be from our family's relationship to money, could be old money wounds, old money narratives that we may have ingested that we haven't questioned before, things like creatives are bad with money, artists are bad at math, things like that.

[35:05] Laura Camien: I I think you're probably gonna get into this in your spark, but just that that idea that we are continually fed that is a choice between like being good with money or being creative and or being good with numbers and being creative.

[35:21] Susan Blackwell: Yeah, it's such baloney.

[35:24] Laura Camien: But the number of people who are like, oh no, no, no, that's not someone else will do that. And it has taken us so much time to realize actually no one else is gonna do it for you.

[35:35] Susan Blackwell: And also, even if they offered, you don't want someone to do all that for you. You want to be paying attention.

[35:41] Laura Camien: That's right.

[35:42] Susan Blackwell: That's right. We are gonna get into that a little bit.

[35:44] Laura Camien: Okay.

[35:44] Susan Blackwell: Okay, I won't jump it. Um, so a way to get right with money to begin that journey or continue it if you've already begun it, is to go back and explore some of the questions that Annette Lieberman asked us in that seminar that I took 20 million years ago. Things like, what are some of your earliest memories about money? How did your family relate to money? Cams, do you remember an early, early memory about money or how you were family related to money that you think you might have absorbed?

[36:14] Laura Camien: Uh 100%. There was never enough.

[36:15] Susan Blackwell: There's never enough money to go around.

[36:18] Laura Camien: So the story in your house is there was never enough.

[36:21] Susan Blackwell: Never enough. No, we're never gonna bridge that gap between how much money we need and how much money is coming in. There was tension between my mom and dad in regard to who made the money, a lot of juicy stuff there.

[36:33] Laura Camien: It's funny because when you said that, I was like, do the ripples of that story still resonate for you now?

[36:38] Susan Blackwell: Well, I think in a way, it probably I've never dated anyone who's ever had any problem with me making more money than they do. I think that's probably based on the tension that I grew up with that was like, you know, I'm gonna make money, and if that's a problem, this isn't gonna work out.

[36:56] Laura Camien: Because my baby Laura Camien is a rainmaker.

[36:59] Susan Blackwell: Because I'm a rainmaker.

[37:01] Laura Camien: I mean, that, and then that's the thing. Like, I never like I haven't learned to spend wisely. I'm learning that now, but I always found a way to support myself.

[37:10] Susan Blackwell: And that was a source of pride for me too, knowing that I could do it at a certain point, knowing that I wasn't gonna need to make that phone call home.

[37:17] Laura Camien: Because for me, that phone call was like, can you buy me a plane ticket? I knew that was what my option was. No one was gonna send money.

[37:24] Susan Blackwell: So if financial support came, it was gonna come in the form of you're coming back to Kansas.

[37:29] Laura Camien: There's a roof over your head here.

[37:31] Susan Blackwell: You can get a job here. There'll be there'll be rules and you know, guidelines on how you're allowed to live in this house until you get back on your feet.

[37:40] Laura Camien: But yes, that's an option to you.

[37:42] Susan Blackwell: Yeah, yeah.

[37:43] Laura Camien: Yeah, but not cash.

[37:45] Susan Blackwell: Nope.

[37:45] Laura Camien: I think it's just fascinating. Um, in an article by Seth J. Gillihan, PhD on psychologytoday.com, Ken Honda describes what he calls money wounds that we carry from earlier in life. There's a quote Most of us are hurt around money when we were children. Maybe we were denied taking ballet lessons or playing a band instrument because our parents couldn't afford it. It was something they couldn't help, but we still felt hurt that we were denied certain things. Nearly all of us experience these kinds of disappointments since parents have very real financial limitations and without realizing it, those early experiences can haunt you 20 years later.

[38:28] Susan Blackwell: And I do think it's one of those things. We're not therapists, we don't claim to be therapists, but I do think it's one of those things that it's really worth looking at.

[38:36] Laura Camien: In our house.

[38:37] Susan Blackwell: We didn't really talk about money, not because we had it.

[38:42] Laura Camien: Did you have an awareness of like if you wanted something? Did you have an awareness that you could have it or not have it?

[38:48] Susan Blackwell: No, no, no. Very frugal.

[38:49] Laura Camien: No, no, no.

[38:50] Susan Blackwell: No.

[38:51] Laura Camien: We could if it we've if we were in a thrift store, maybe that was a place where we could have it, like that our mom would have grief to it.

[39:00] Susan Blackwell: But no, I think money was really, really tight. But no, it wasn't a situation where my parents taught me how to balance a checkbook. No, or anything like that. Like it was just a non-topic. They might have talked about it between the two of them. I was not a financially literate person.

[39:17] Laura Camien: No, no, me neither.

[39:19] Susan Blackwell: Yeah, yeah. Nope. In that same article, Ken Honda goes on to describe money fears. Money is tied to basic survival for most of us. As author Ken Honda pointed out, unless you subsist off the land, you're dependent on money to provide the fundamentals like food and shelter. Thus, we often attach fear to money. Ken Honda asks his clients to write down their worst-case scenario. And it's usually some version of life without any money. Beyond the fear of going broke, though, lies a deeper concern. What you imagine can reveal what you're afraid of. So does running out of money mean going hungry? Does it mean feeling embarrassed? Does it mean being a disappointment? Does it mean being a failure? Does it mean looking irresponsible? As you examine the root of your money-related fears, you can discover those underlying insecurities, and then you can start working with them.

[40:17] Laura Camien: Susan, are you having a moment?

[40:18] Susan Blackwell: Uh, I'm just thinking about like it's just all truth.

[40:23] Laura Camien: We internalize all that stuff.

[40:24] Susan Blackwell: Yeah, we do. And then the thing is, we are operating from those things, and if they're unexamined, it means I mean, I can see myself so clearly, both as a younger person and kind of now, where some of those things are driving me or making me look away because I'm just like averse to it. When what is more, I think, useful and productive and healthy is kind of getting to the bottom of those fears, those wounds, those narratives, so that you can actually make choices, like you can make conscious choices. I remember hearing Kathy Griffin. Did you watch her reality show My Life on the D List? Were you ever into that?

[41:04] Laura Camien: I did not.

[41:05] Susan Blackwell: I was into that show, and I remember her so clearly. This has rung like a bell in my head for years. She talked about her dirty little secret was that she was great with money.

[41:15] Laura Camien: Wow.

[41:16] Susan Blackwell: And cut to her like A-list house, like nestled on the side of a mountain. And I thought that is so great.

[41:25] Laura Camien: Yeah.

[41:26] Susan Blackwell: And then recently I was listening to the podcast, How to Be Amazing, hosted by the comedian and author and creative Michael Ian Black. And Kathy Griffin talked about how she has 32 million dollars.

[41:41] Laura Camien: What?

[41:42] Susan Blackwell: And a 13,000 square foot house that she paid cash for, no mortgage.

[41:47] Laura Camien: Oh my God.

[41:48] Susan Blackwell: Amazing, right? But here's where it breaks down for me. She said she still feels like she needs more.

[41:55] Laura Camien: That's the thing.

[41:56] Susan Blackwell: That's the thing. Like a few weeks back when we were talking about sort of the history of like money and shame. Money, money, money.

[42:04] Laura Camien: Yeah.

[42:04] Susan Blackwell: Money, money, money. And you were like, Laura, I think you have saved more, but have more stress about what that number is. And you have more peace about it. We talk pretty openly with each other about like dollars and cents and where we're at and how's your retirement fund coming and it's great to have somebody to have those conversations with too. I think be judicious about it. Like there's a reason why I have to, yeah but, but to have somebody that you can talk openly with about money and learn about money, it's super, super helpful.

[42:38] Laura Camien: You really have to. We did a class recently on like imposter syndrome. And I'll be quick about this, but the importance of internalizing one's successes.

[42:49] Susan Blackwell: Yes.

[42:50] Laura Camien: There's a whole philosophy behind how vital that is because our brain does replay negative things over and over again and is inclined more inclined to believe those things. We actually have to force ourselves to speak out loud and talk about our successes. And I think that our money, I think we all also have to have someone in our life that it is safe because it's not safe to talk to everyone about money.

[43:16] Susan Blackwell: Correct.

[43:17] Laura Camien: You have to find someone who it is safe to talk to. You're allowed to celebrate it. You're allowed to even the other way around. You're allowed to talk to them about what your money disorder is and how you're working on that and be able to be open about that without shame. But you also have to be able to celebrate when you've made progress when you're doing well when you save a certain amount and I think it's really painful that we don't have that frankly that people don't have the ability to talk openly about it. I think we can cultivate more of that, and we'll get to that on the what do we make of it.

[43:52] Susan Blackwell: Oh, yeah. To all of that, I want to share some types of money phobia that Annette Lieberman shared with our class that really helped me. All of this is in her book, The Money Mirror, which is out of print. And I will say the book, reading it now, it reads a little dated. I just feel like social mores have updated a lot, but there's so much in it that is still, I think, relevant and useful. Cams, I'm gonna read these types to you, try these on and see if any of these resonate with you. Listeners, I invite you to do the same.

[44:21] Laura Camien: Okay.

[44:22] Susan Blackwell: Money blindness. The money blind creative closes their eyes to money and thinks of it as vague or unreal. Because they have confused money with other emotional conflicts, they often find it anxiety producing to look at all aspects of their financial situation and may not read financial statements, balance their checkbooks, or know exactly how much they earn and spend. If you're a woman, you might leave money management to others, including men. That's money blindness.

[44:50] Laura Camien: Okay. You feeling that?

[44:53] Susan Blackwell: The next up is money squeamishness. Money squeamish creatives believe wanting money is greedy or corrupt and think that talking about money is tacky.

[45:02] Laura Camien: Oof.

[45:03] Susan Blackwell: Next up, start asking for money or invoicing people for money. Money squeamishness. Next up, money denying. Money deniers want someone or something to take care of them and entertain fantasies that they will be rescued financially. Affected by the mythology of fairy tales, they may associate financial rescue with the vague closure of living happily ever after and with the ultimate satisfaction of their emotional needs. They usually spend what they earn, do not take income producing as seriously as they could, and think making money should be glamorous and exciting. That's money denying.

[45:38] Laura Camien: Money eluding.

[45:39] Susan Blackwell: Money eluders want to make more money, but are paralyzed by anxieties they have not defined. They do not attach a price tag to their financial fantasies. They also fear finding themselves in a work situation that represents a foreign territory where they may be exposed to the envy of others and their own lack of perfection will be revealed. Though our sexist society is often at the root of money eluders' issues, they take their inability to earn personally and may have difficulty balancing their need to make money with other priorities.

[46:12] Laura Camien: Next up, money folly.

[46:14] Susan Blackwell: Money folly people blow their money or throw it away as they attempt to solve emotional conflicts by excessive spending. They tend to regard budgeting and saving as punishments instead of useful techniques for taking charge of their financial lives and sacrifice future security in exchange for immediate gratification. Ding ding ding ding ding, says me.

[46:37] Laura Camien: Money paranoia.

[46:39] Susan Blackwell: Money paranoid people use their money to build fortresses that they believe will protect them from an uncertain future and from people who plan to rip them off or suck them dry. They solve emotional dilemmas by maintaining financial control at any cost. They may hoard their money or use it in the wrong way to sabotage themselves and their important relationships. That's a money paranoia.

[47:03] Laura Camien: And lastly, money confusion.

[47:05] Susan Blackwell: Money confusion strikes when money phobic people negotiate for pay or for financial advantages in their personal life. The money confused are afraid to separate money from their emotions. They try to take care of the needs of the people they are negotiating with, or expect those people to take care of them. They may also personalize money and financial institutions. Cams, do you see yourself in any or all of these?

[47:30] Laura Camien: Oh, yeah.

[47:31] Susan Blackwell: Not all of them.

[47:33] Laura Camien: Definitely not all of them, but there are a few that were definitely like, whoo.

[47:37] Susan Blackwell: Yeah.

[47:37] Laura Camien: The one about folly and the one like denier, maybe the what was the first one?

[47:42] Susan Blackwell: Money blindness.

[47:43] Laura Camien: Money blindness. Yeah. I feel like I am also a heady brew of money folly and money blindness. Um, and I also think it changes over time and in different circumstances.

[47:54] Susan Blackwell: Yeah, you know.

[47:55] Laura Camien: Yeah, which is why all the more reason why awareness is so essential. There are so many stories about real life creatives being bad with money that feeds into all of this narrative. Young actors or musicians who experience success at a young age and end up in trouble for not paying taxes, people who make and lose fortunes because they had like or whose managers extort money.

[48:19] Susan Blackwell: Yeah, that's right, Laura. People who aren't they don't have their eyes on their money. Like Oprah says, always sign your checks, uh, no matter how big your organization is, you sign those checks. Um, people who have a big entourage because they think, oh, this is how a person in my position is supposed to roll. And so they make a lot of money and they lose fortunes. All of this makes sense to me. If I were younger, if younger me received a lot of money at a young, I would not know how to track it, I would not know how to invest it. Not one thing. I would be incarcerated for tax evasion because I didn't understand the processes. And I didn't, you know what I mean?

[48:56] Laura Camien: Yeah.

[48:56] Susan Blackwell: In their book, The Money Mirror, the authors provide the example of the queen of non-money phobia, Mae West. Do you uh do you kids know who Mae West was?

[49:09] Laura Camien: Tell us, too.

[49:11] Susan Blackwell: Well, Mae West is one of the all-time most outrageous stage and screen personalities. She was known for her one-liner. She was known for just, she was super sex positive when that term had not even been coined yet. Like no con people had no concept of that. Mae West, does this sound familiar to anybody? She's she was like, come up and see me sometime. Mae West, in addition to being just like this very outrageous sex positive star of stage and screen, was a financial whiz.

[49:46] Laura Camien: Wow, I did not know that.

[49:48] Susan Blackwell: Yes. Get a lot of this. From her early days as a child star on the vaudeville circuit, Mae West earned, negotiated, and managed her money wisely, eventually becoming the wealthiest self-made woman of her generation. She also, in addition to being just like a kick-ass business person and kick-ass financial literate, she led this full extravagant emotional life. And by the end of it, fun fact, Mae West claimed to have had an orgasm a day for about 87 years.

[50:24] Laura Camien: Woo!

[50:25] Susan Blackwell: Super, like she was, she was an amazing creative. She was amazingly sex positive. She actually would be a hell of a standalone spark. She's amazing.

[50:33] Laura Camien: Yeah.

[50:34] Susan Blackwell: In her autobiography, Goodness Had Nothing to Do with It, Mae West recounts that she had instinctive knowledge of the negotiation process. Mae West, as a young vaudeville performer, refused to pick up money that was thrown on the stage, which was a vaudeville custom. She knew that stooping for money was not an effective posture when she was then gonna turn around and negotiate her own contracts and salary.

[51:00] Laura Camien: So she would not stoop down to pick up money off of a stage.

[51:04] Susan Blackwell: Would she just not get any of that?

[51:05] Laura Camien: I think somebody else would pick it up.

[51:07] Susan Blackwell: Wow.

[51:09] Laura Camien: Yeah. Like I think Mae West got paid. But I don't think she bent down to pick up that money, which I was like, wow.

[51:15] Susan Blackwell: Yes.

[51:15] Laura Camien: Yeah.

[51:16] Susan Blackwell: Trust that instinct, yes.

[51:18] Laura Camien: But as a young person and a young person of that time, like we're talking about like the early 1900s.

[51:25] Susan Blackwell: Yeah, that's the 20th century, Laura.

[51:27] Laura Camien: The early 20th century.

[51:29] Susan Blackwell: That good job, Sadie.

[51:31] Laura Camien: Thank you. Thank you. Yay.

[51:32] Susan Blackwell: Mae West's awareness of the value of money led her to make the timely move from Broadway to Hollywood.

[51:40] Laura Camien: In 1927, Mae West was starring in a Broadway show that she wrote called Sex.

[51:47] Susan Blackwell: Did you know that?

[51:48] Laura Camien: Oh no, I did not.

[51:50] Susan Blackwell: Yeah.

[51:51] Laura Camien: Amazing.

[51:52] Susan Blackwell: So she's starring this.

[51:54] Laura Camien: She was sentenced to 10 days in jail in New York City for using obscene language and doing a quote, coochie dance, unquote, in her own play, Sex on Broadway.

[52:07] Susan Blackwell: Oh my God. You know what Mae West did when she was sitting in her jail cell for 10 days in 1927? Mae West used that time to read reports of Hollywood film earnings and to ponder economics. Mae West studied the numbers that the Hollywood studios were making. Mae West liked what she saw, and she began thinking about how she could apply her style and personality to the motion picture industry. And then, once in Hollywood, Mae proved adept at studio politics and negotiating. And she eventually earned $300,000 per picture, the highest salary paid to a star until then. Any star, male, female, otherwise, any star. She was soon writing and producing her own films in which she starred. But she didn't just earn great sums of money. She also invested her money wisely. In addition to her fabulous clothes and furs and jewels, Mae West bought and managed real estate and parlayed $16,000. She invested it wisely and made five million dollars out of it. Oh my God.

[53:23] Laura Camien: Yeah. That is crazy.

[53:25] Susan Blackwell: She's really, she really is a standalone spark. Pretty extraordinary. Uh in the book, The Money Mirror, Annette Lieberman stresses that what makes Mae the queen of money awareness is not just her exceptional earning power and intelligent use of money. It's the way she achieved balance in her very unique lifestyle. In her autobiography, Mae West said, "Hard as I worked, I would be lying to say I neglected my emotional side. I'm a girl who likes balance in everything." So yeah, so there were times when she would turn down lucrative deals because she wanted to tend to her spiritual or emotional needs. Right? Am I right? Am I right, ladies? So at other times she would take on new challenges, not because she needed the money, but because she loved her creative work.

[54:26] Laura Camien: Oh my gosh.

[54:27] Susan Blackwell: She's extraordinary. I mean, I kind of always knew, but not in great detail. Oh, she she is unfucking believable in so many different ways. And she really relished this life that she had designed to suit her needs. And I mean her financial needs, I mean her sexual needs, I mean her creative needs, I mean her personal needs. And even in her old age, she apparently she worked, she loved, she radiated this sense of power and self-control and youthful vitality. So just to balance, like, yes, money can be challenging, and yes, there's a lot of things to learn, and yes, money mastery is a real lifelong project, but I offer you Mae West. Yes. As a possibility of somebody who just like lived fucking large, she's a fucking baller in so many different ways, and she was fucking great with her money.

[55:26] Laura Camien: So what do we make of it, Laura Camille?

[55:29] Susan Blackwell: Oh my God. Mae West career. Mae West, yeah. That's something really something to aspire to. If all of this is new to you, I think it's worth doing some digging to understand where your money beliefs come from and if they're serving you. Another question to explore do you value the creative work you make, whether that's products or services? And if you are not valuing and pricing yourself, keep digging, keep looking. Honestly, I would add to that, like challenge yourself to imagine that what you do is worthy of extraordinary amounts of money. It's as worthy as anyone on Wall Street and what they do, and anyone in Hollywood or sports athletes or whatnot, like what you do is worthy, and the art that you're putting out into the world is worthy.

[56:22] Laura Camien: And I think that just starting like right from the jump, we tend to be at the other end of the spectrum of like, I'm just so happy I got anything for this work.

[56:31] Susan Blackwell: Uh-huh.

[56:32] Laura Camien: Because so many people in our industry are asked to work for free. They're asked to do benefits, et cetera.

[56:39] Susan Blackwell: Exactly. Exactly. There's while we're on this topic, regarding the value of our creativity, I want to make a similar point in two different ways. So first, I offer you the napkin story. You may have heard this before. Picasso is sitting in a Paris cafe when a woman approaches the artist and asks that he make a quick sketch on a paper napkin. So Picasso acquiesces and draws his little dove and promptly hands it back to this woman and asks for a large sum of money. And the woman is flabbergasted and says, "How can you ask for so much? It took you a minute to draw this." And Picasso replies, "No, it took me 40 years." And a similar point made in a different way is there's this song on TikTok. You know, it's not an episode of the Sparkfile podcast unless I say the words TikTok. There's a song that is viral on TikTok by Whoa Dude that goes, "It costs that much because it takes me fucking hours."

[57:40] Laura Camien: Hours. You know that song, Large Gavin?

[57:42] Susan Blackwell: I sure do. So that just all speaks to how are you valuing your creativity and your time.

[57:50] Laura Camien: Yeah, your time. Explore how you're valuing yourself, whether you're a teacher, a painter, a coach, a singer. If you're doing work that you would do for free for your own satisfaction or you're doing it to make the world a better place, that doesn't mean you shouldn't get paid for it.

[58:06] Susan Blackwell: Oh my God. Just because you would do it for free does not mean you have to do it for free.

[58:11] Laura Camien: That's right. And sometimes you may want to do it for free. That's your choice.

[58:16] Susan Blackwell: Yeah. There are times when I am so pleased to do my creative work for free. Sometimes it is for charity. Sometimes it's just because I want to make this little corner of the world a better place. And I want to do it as a gift to the world. And there are times when I'm like, Susan has to get paid. So ask yourself that. If you're more advanced with money, I feel like there is always more work to be done. As we up level, we are met with new money blocks, and we might want to process through that. Our coach Jennifer talks about preparing your life for making money and for receiving it. And to me, this means having good systems in place to track and manage money. And that, my friends, takes time and research and learning and action steps. And it also means having a clear plan for how much you want to bring in, why you want to bring it in, and where that money is going to go.

[59:13] Laura Camien: I love this so much. To have that clarity and to have those systems in place that support it, then you start talking about real financial peace and freedom, which is such a gift to one's life. Laura suggested something earlier that I think is a great what do we make of it, which is, and I actually am so inspired by the money mirror. In the back of this book, Laura, there is a great little guide for how to create money groups where you can get together with people that you trust. Maybe that's one other person, maybe it's a small group.

[59:47] Susan Blackwell: Yes. And have candid conversations about these topics and financial well-being and health. So I think that's a wonderful what do we make of it.

[59:57] Laura Camien: Yes. A small conversation group that supports each other as you gain financial confidence and health and literacy. Any other what do we make of it before I land this plane?

[1:00:07] Susan Blackwell: We're moments before landing. Buckle up.

[1:00:11] Laura Camien: Um, that's my favorite one is finding a way, a safe place for you to talk and celebrate your wins and celebrate your progress so you don't have to feel so alone in it.

[1:00:23] Susan Blackwell: Yeah. If you are alone in it, yeah. I'm excited by that. I made up a mantra that Laura and I have started saying to each other before we sit down to do financial work. So we normally do financial work probably about once a week. And I created this mantra, and it's sort of a counterspell to some of those narratives that are less helpful around money. Uh-huh. And I don't know if I've said this on the podcast before. So if I've said it before, enjoy it again. If it's the first time, a freshie. But this is it. I easily absorb and process financial learning. I feel peace and pride having my financial, legal, and insurance affairs in beautiful order. And I'll leave you with this question. What do you say to yourself about money?

[1:01:10] Laura Camien: Oh, that's an amazing thought to leave us with.

[1:01:14] Susan Blackwell: Oof. What do you say to yourself?

[1:01:18] Laura Camien: That's my spark, and I'm sticking to it. I think you gotta put in the what do we make of it. You gotta put write yourself a mantra. Write yourself a beautiful, beautiful mantra like you did, Susan, and repeat it to yourself that you can you can understand this. You can look at this. Peace. You can get a hold of this.

[1:01:39] Susan Blackwell: Yeah. It is a lifelong process. And I think, I don't know. I don't know. I think it's totally worthwhile. It has brought me a lot of peace. And it hasn't come easily to me. I just want to make that super clear. I didn't know a lot about money as a younger person.

[1:01:57] Laura Camien: Yeah.

[1:01:57] Susan Blackwell: All of this has just been a series of baby steps, baby, baby, baby steps.

[1:02:02] Laura Camien: Yeah, it feels like so many of us are on our own to figure it out. And then creatives in particular are in another bracket. What does it all mean to us and that pursuit of the things we're passionate about? And does that mean that we need to not have a handle on our money?

[1:02:21] Susan Blackwell: I have another what do we make of it.

[1:02:22] Laura Camien: What is it?

[1:02:23] Susan Blackwell: I think that we are gonna make some curriculum for our creativity groups so that we can begin this investigation or continue it because a lot of people are well on their way, but just continue this investigation to make sure that we as creatives are supporting as much financial health, well-being, and literacy as possible for each other.

[1:02:50] Laura Camien: Oh, I like that, Suze.

[1:02:52] Susan Blackwell: I like it. All right, I think that's it. What a great spark!

[1:02:55] Laura Camien: Thanks, Cam.

[1:02:57] Susan Blackwell: Thank you, Suze. This episode of the Sparks File was made on the lands of the Lenape people. As always, we hope that this put another bunch of sparks in your file. Hey, listen, if there's a spark you'd like us to explore, or if you'd like to learn more about how to coach with us to bring your creative ideas to life, email us at thesparkfile at gmail.com or submit it through our website, thesparkfile.com. We will even happily take your feedback, but you know the price of admission. First, you have to share a creative risk that you've taken recently.

[1:03:28] Laura Camien: You can follow us on social at the Sparkfile and be sure to subscribe, rate, and five star review this podcast. It really, really, really helps other listeners to find us.

[1:03:39] Susan Blackwell: Also, if you like this podcast, we hope you'll just straight up share it with people that you love. And if you didn't like it, isn't it just the best zero dollars you never spent? You really got what you paid for there, kid.

[1:03:52] Laura Camien: Oh gosh.

[1:03:54] Susan Blackwell: If something lights you up and gets your creative sparks flying, we are writing you a forever permission slip to make that thing. For goodness sakes, make that thing that's been knocking at your door. It's your turn to take that spark and fan it into a flame. You know you gotta take it and make it.

[1:04:17] Laura Camien: Money, money, money, money.

[1:04:20] Susan Blackwell: Make that money.

[1:04:21] Laura Camien: Ooh, pitchy.

[1:04:23] Susan Blackwell: You pitch it all.

[1:04:34] Laura Camien: Spark could be something that I wanna pick or how I wanna be.

[1:04:40] Susan Blackwell: I'll pump it in the spark files.

[1:04:44] Laura Camien: I jump into my spark files.

[1:04:48] Susan Blackwell: Sparkfiles.

[1:04:49] Laura Camien: Let's open up the spark files.